Obama says lost auto jobs are gone

[Freddie Stubbs]

Source: Reuters

WASHINGTON, July 14 (Reuters) - President Barack Obama took a dose of reality to Michigan on Tuesday, saying that thousands of jobs lost to the auto industry's downturn are not coming back and it is time to prepare for new industries.

Traveling to Michigan, a state hit hard by job losses as Detroit's Big Three automakers have reeled from the U.S. recession, Obama planned to promote a $12 billion initiative to boost community colleges and increase the graduation rate.

"(The) hard truth is that some of the jobs that have been lost in the auto industry and elsewhere won't be coming back," Obama was to say, according to prepared remarks released by the White House.

"They are casualties of a changing economy. And that only underscores the importance of generating new businesses and industries to replace the ones we've lost, and of preparing our workers to fill the jobs they create," Obama will say.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1450666720090714

[sasquatch]

1. So are the investors and bankers then

[atreides1]

2. What new industries?

[jayfish]

6. The Ones That Can Ship Their Jobs Overseas...

one we get them all set up here.

Jay

[liberal N proud]

7. Service industry

Of course for it to work, when you clean my house, I will have to paint your neighbors and he will have to do the guy across the streets laundry. That guy will have to mow my lawn and it the circle will be complete.

Or something like that.


:sarcasm:

[HughBeaumont]

18. Oh, and you'd all have to pay each other a living wage.

.. . . or something like that . . .

Yep, the Friedman laissez-failures sure have it ALL figgered out!

:sarcasm:

[dysfunctional press]

61. can't we all just deliver pizzas to each other?

:shrug:

everyone likes pizza.

[Midwestern Democrat]

123. It's just a gigantic lie that neoliberals have been peddling for 30 years.

The idea that it's desireable to lose domestic industry of products that are currently in great demand (and will be for the forseeable future) - automobiles, televisions, stereos, radios, DVD players, etc - because some unknown, undefined "new industries" will somehow take their place - is just lunacy. These Ivy League educated "intellectuals" basically have an economic strategy that - when it comes right down to it - has no more substance than a wishing well.

[Abq_Sarah]

150. The ones people are going to

Invent out of thin air with money they don't have that will provide products and services for people who can't afford them.

[DJ13]

3. I sure wish he had taken this hard tone with Wall Street & the bankers

It seems that only the little guy is expected to take the full brunt of this economic mess.

[saigon68]

133. NEVER --- The DLC are Lap-Dogs to that crowd

They fawn and lick the hands of their "Masters?"

[Royal Oak Rog]

4. But that's not the tone of the speech at all

That's why these news wire services are full of shit. The tone of the speech is to train workers for the new jobs and industries which he promised are coming.....what a piece of shit Reuters is!

[WriteDown]

9. And that's better?

Workers can be retrained? I'm sure a 50 year old auto-worker is jumping for joy right now. :sarcasm:

[Royal Oak Rog]

27. Go retrain yourself

He's what 200 and some odd days into this thing. He's pushing a bill for 9 billion dollars into the Community College system. This is not the same song and dance bullshit you refer to.

[WriteDown]

32. So a 50 year auto worker is supposed to go to CC?!

Geez. :eyes:

[Royal Oak Rog]

41. Yes, I'm 50

I plan on going back myself, why are this so odd? 50 is not old, I'm not saying you have to retrain for the factory, but God use your imagination! I was an I.T. and got laid off by the state, but really 50 is not too old to re-invent yourself.

[WriteDown]

52. And what are they supposed to live on until then?

Good vibes?

[snooper2]

137. If you are 50 years old you should have something to show for it

Especially if you worked for GM for 30 years...

[Psephos]

147. maybe they "should," but many don't

Try going for a few years - or more - without a decent job, as tens of thousands have here in Michigan, then tell me what's left from your tidy nest egg.

We're dealing with reality, not your assumptions.

[okieinpain]

87. 50 right here, going to francis tuttle for oracle certification.

those jobs are gone and they are not coming back, gotta do what you gotta do.

[Missy Vixen]

110. And the fact that the IT industry is not hiring isn't a problem?

I sometimes wonder if we are all encased in glass. Obviously, nobody hears us.

I read an article two days ago in LBN stating that the vast majority of IT shops are not hiring this year. They're laying off.

Here's a stupid question: When all these "retrained" fifty-year-old former auto industry employees get out of school, what is it that they are supposed to do?

THERE ARE NO JOBS.

In the meantime, President Obama doesn't seem to realize this.

[okieinpain]

135. our couse instructor sends stuff like this all the time. she says there is

not an abundance of jobs but there are a lot of jobs in the it field. but of course she could be just shining us on.

=================================================================================


Are you ready for a change of pace? Would you like the summers off? Do you want to spend more time with your children or grandchildren? Tired of being on-call 24/7?

Francis Tuttle Technology Center is looking for an IT professional to become the Instructor of the Web Programming & Software Development program. This is an established program with the curriculum already developed.

I have attached the job announcement, which contains more information about the job and how to apply for it. Francis Tuttle is a great place to work!!


Web Programming & Software Development Instructor
Information Technology Programs
Rockwell Campus (Existing Full-time Position)

Closing Date: June 18, 2009
(RE-OPENED)

Primary Function:
Responsible for teaching a performance-based instructional program in Web Programming & Software Development. Provide class instruction in accordance with the course program content. Oversee all general management of instruction for adult and high school students. Responsible for development and revision of course content, equipment selection, instructional materials and teaching assignments. Assist students in setting career goals.

Qualifications:
Bachelor degree in Business, Computer Science or related field required. Must be eligible to apply for provisional/alternative teacher certification or have a valid teaching certificate in Business Education from the State of Oklahoma. Business Education certification, vocational credential, industry certifications, and prior teaching experience preferred. Working knowledge of Java, .Net Technology, C#, PHP, MySQL, AJAX, XHTML/CSS is necessary.

[Dappleganger]

46. Yes.

My mother began nursing school at 50 (including having to take a prerequisite math and biology class), graduating in 3 years while working a part-time job.
You do what you have to do in this life, ain't nobody gonna do it for you nor hand it to you on a platter. Times have changed.

[WriteDown]

51. So she pulled herself up by her boot straps?

:eyes:

[Dappleganger]

64. Pretty much.

It's been nearly one year since she passed away, but I'm sure that's what she'd say that if you can do it--don't waste time talking or making excuses.
BTW, she grew up as in poverty as a sharecropper's daughter in Mississippi and her mom went on welfare when her father died. She was used to making something out of nothing.

[HughBeaumont]

68. Er, the logic's kind of ass-backwards.

Even today's MBA is soon becoming as valuable as yesterday's HS diploma. In this recent round of layoffs, the Bachelors and MBA holders were sent packing from corporations with the rest of the "unpositioned". Nowadays, so many people are getting their MBAs not simply for the purpose of bettering themselves, but merely as a requirement for remaining employable. There's going to come a time where a bachelors degree, which takes enough time and sacrifice to complete, simply isn't going to be enough. Frankly, it really isn't enough now. When does THAT stop?

What do you say to older workers in general, who still have to deal with the wet-carpet mountain known as "ageism"? To pretend it doesn't exist is patently naive at best and perilous at worst. There used to be a time that older workers and their leadership and skill set were valued. Now corporations want the candidates to be 25-34 years old, have 20 years experience and a master's degree, and be able to work for the same average $40,000 a year that they've been paying us for three decades running.

What do you say to older workers who took the GM/Ford buyouts but still don't have the money to retire? What does this administration say to people like my cousin, who in 2006 had to take a buyout from Packard Electric, which lasted him so long and to this day never recovered the wages he made and is still not gainfully employed? He has nothing other than a high school diploma. It's naive to think that at 37, he and his SO can just go to a community college and start over. What would they do? Where would they get the money for the education . . . go into more debt? Where would the experience come from?

They didn't used to have to worry about this sort of thing before. It used to be that we were able to gainfully employ people who aren't meant for college; these people were our industrial and manufacturing base and they built the quality products we used and bought.

A strong economy should be capable of employing EVERYone at a fair wage regardless of education level, and when you cannot do that, all the talking points in the world aint'a gonna mask the reality that you do NOT have any such economy on your watch.

So now we're again bringing up the "retraining" canard. While it was all too insignificant a bone thrown by the Bewsh administration, Obama seems to mean well because I believe he genuinely cares about workers and doesn't see them as economic losers as the previous admin did.

Regardless, it still remains the futile equivalent of plugging up a bursting dam with corks.

Say you get laid off of a career and have to go and re-train for a new one. Honestly, what career are you going to pick that can't be offshored/inshored?

Do you got a few years to put your life on hold while you GET this training, as in enough cash to pay the bills, put food on the table and a roof overhead?

Here's another thing they aren't seeing - how can you predict that the career you choose to retrain in won't be following it's predecessor overseas?

Not to mention that "retraining" only works if your competition cannot do the exact same thing. What do they think, that Indians and Chinese DON'T have access to the same universities and opportunities we have? They can get the same degrees we can get. They have THOUSANDS that already HAVE the same degrees we have to get. And they will always, always ALWAYS be cheaper. Gonna get your Ph.D in math? Guaranteed there's already 100 Indians or Chinese or whoever that have them and are vying for your position.

ALL offshoring and inshoring/visa abuse should be stopped until you have several new emerging technologies for the displaced to assimilate to. Oh wait, that TOO can't happen. Not only has nano-, bio- and whatever-o-tech already got the jumpstart over in Asia and India during the last administration (which was fervently anti-science to it's own detriment), but now were seeing reports of green jobs being shipped overseas as well . . . the jobs that were supposed to be leading US to a greater long-term economic foundation.

We cannot afford to follow the same path our predecessors have taken for the past 20 years.

If one was conspiritorial to the n-th degree, one would think this was all a foolproof plan by the wealthy, corporations and colleges to keep the middle class, poor and all of us 95%ers in "our station" for life. But I'm starting to go with a certain director who said "I don't believe in conspiracies, except the ones that are true".

A powerless, uneducated, fearful and divided work force is an OBEDIENT work force. It's simply sad beyond belief that Democratic administrations who saw the monumental damage caused by 28 years of Republican and Moderate free-trade follies are still falling for the same Republican and regressive way of conducting business.

I'm not one of those who believe they don't care. I just think this new administration cannot do anything to rein in ubiquitous corporate rule. These spoiled brat wealthmongers are going to learn soon enough just how cancerous their selfish ways will end up being the bullets through their own feet.

[Hannah Bell]

89. conspiracy theorist! (but of course you're right. & offshoring is policy.)

[Demeter]

101. Exactly! You've Hit Many of the Gaping Holes In the So-Called Plan

but there's more. A nation cannot exist without manufacturing. Manufacturing creates wealth. Without wealth creation, we would be shipping all our current wealth overseas to buy their manufactured items, and shortly, we would have NOTHING. How many insurance salesmen does the global economy need? Why would they hire an American? How many dental assistants? How many nurses? Every time they can, the American hospitals fire nurses so they can pay the execs. big bucks. It takes lawsuits to bring the level of care up to where people aren't dying of neglect!

Obama's plan is a worthless plan because it is steeped in denial of facts.

[Grinchie]

127. I found a career that is rewarding and immune from outsourcing

I was in Software Engineering, and I worked for many companies in the Bay Area in my time. After the DotCom bubble broke, the job market began to shrivel up with more and more outsourcing. I had over the years bought a beautiful farm, and had invested a lot in irrigation and refurbishment. It was just reaching it's peak when the bubble hit, and the wages were cut by almost a third, if you could find a job. So, while searching for employment, I worked the farm, and it was profitable and very fun. I was out in the fresh air, getting exercise, and worked my own hours. But I had a mortgage and credit card debt. We also got suckered into "Consolidating Debt" through a second mortgage..

We hung on for as long as we could, and the crops helped us weather an extra 16 months until we finally succumbed to the debt and filed for bankruptcy. They liquidated my beautiful farm in a heartbeat, 7 years ago, just as the Housing Bubble was inflating. I'll never forget the 8 bidders in the courtroom bidding up my prperty to the moon. While I lost my beautiful farm, I walked away with a cashiers check of several hundred thousand dollars to start again.

We were both mad that their was no safety net to help us stay in our producing farm, and everytime people would tell us how well we came out of it, we would just scowl at them and remind them that it was our home. It took many years to get over the pain of that event, but one has to move on.

Our experience on the farm demonstrated what was needed to make a farm work, so with that experience we bought a property 10 times as large for cash, in what many call paradise, both literally and in the travel brochures. We bought it outright, with all the cash we had, and are now land rich, cash poor. It has many existing crops growing on it already, along with many more that we have planted. We have more food than what we know what to do with. We could sell it if we needed to, but those days will come.

Instead, we just focus on daily living and working for ourselves.

This can never be outsourced. We don't consume much anymore. It just doesn't have the appeal anymore. The only thing we do buy are old hand tools. The reversion to a simpler labor intensive mode of life is amazingly pleasant. We don't have much cash, but we have no debt, and this is the key. The small pile of cash that we have stays constant. it hardly gets depleted at all and requires little to no maintenence. On the other hand, if I were to go to work for someone else, the costs would add up quickly. Gas, parking, witholding, food, etc. Then, I'd be forced to file a 1040 in order to get some of the witholding back. So now, uncle sam see's how my money worked for me, but I am not allowed to see how that money worked for them over the last year. Did it pay for a white phosphorous shell to be manufactured for Israel? Or maybe a microchip eeprom from a Predator Drone? Or maybe for the ADVISE system or TOPSAIL? Or maybe it subsidized another 100,000 acres of crop insurance for Monsantos GMO Triple-Stack Soy to some giant mechfarmer in Iowa.

Not earning a wage from someone else free's me from the rat race. I used to be a good little wage earner, until I reconnected with nature and simplified. I still have all the skills that I gained in IT, it never goes away, but now I have time to pay attention to life and the events that surround us.

We live off the grid, but have Internet, Lights running water and everything one needs, but it's extremely simple. The human organism doesn't need much to be happy, other than clean air, a roof over your head, clean water and healthy food.

The Corporate High Tech, 10:00AM Video confernece just doesn't have the same thrill as walking the lower 40 and finding a new species of insect, or a grove of tree's that you didn't know was there, or a bunch of wild pig hanging out in the forest.

People are afraid of the simple life for the most part. They buy into the myth of the hardships involved without power tools. I have actually gone back to using broadaxes to square timbers, and by golly, it's easier than a chain saw mill! Quieter and less polluting too.

When one goes back to methods that were in widespread uses until only about 45 years ago, you really begin to appreciate things and start asking yourself how would you duplicate it like the old timers. It is only then that you appreciate the skill of our elders, and how utterly helpless and dependent we have become.

I urge everyone to rediscover your roots. Think of different ways of doing things, like our parents did in the past. Make tools! Carve wood! Learn about Plants and grow what food you can.

Think about how you would create and maintain your own potable water supply. Think about how you would dispose of your wastes, safely and without contaminating the land. Those basics will force you to think hard about how our current system functions, and how you personally can make it better. That is the best retraining there is, but you'll find that they do not teach it in Community College, or anywhere for that matter. Sure, their are some books on it, but most of them are show books, and may steer you in the wrong direction. Try to read both contempory and older books on a subject. Many of the newer books forget about old techniques, and I'm thinking that it's on purpose, to slowly remove references from tried and true methods that require simple tools or techniques, where a newer, more complex (and profitable) tools is the modern, corporate sponsored technique.

And you are right. The Corporations are going to be the death of themselves as soon as people learn to stop Cooperating in their own demise and stop enabling them. Gandhi was right. They depend on us to do their menial jobs for them. We dare not say anything in fear of losing a job or money. We are also pushed too fast and not allowed to reflect on our actions. Slowing down, sleeping on things before you act, and allowing problems the time they need to be answered. The time to act is before your job is shipped overseas, or it finally succumbs to the economy.

[Psephos]

148. thanks for your thoughtful and thought-stimulating post n/t

[caseymoz]

83. Nothing wrong with that plan. Except maybe

It won't matter unless there are job openings.

[kiva]

114. I teach at a communtiy college and have had

many students in the past that are 50+.

If you think this is an unrealistic solution, what do you suggest? Fifty is too young to retire - most will work for another 15 year and there is no reason not to retrain. That said, I think there is a problem with age discrimination among employers that needs to be addressed.

[HughBeaumont]

122. A way better and far more adequate social safety net, for starters?

Smarter economics, like . . . oh, I don't know . . . funding smaller businesses and start ups, instituting universal health care, not offshoring budding new technologies, technology in general, R&D. I mean, doesn't anyone see what the problem is here? Mere survival in the United States of America is explicitly tied to the level of one's employment. You can no longer survive in America unless you have gobs of money and time at your disposal.

It's the most cockamamie bullshit ever conceived. If one was conspiratorial, one would think that this is all a grand plan to funnel money into universities and corporations via everlasting servitude. There are far too many people getting left behind simply because they cannot afford to go to college or are too tied to a job to have the time to get good grades or study.

Also, whose idea was it to ship all manufacturing, assembly, industry and what not overseas when there were NO NEW ADEQUATE LIVING WAGE INDUSTRIES TO REPLACE THEM???? Now in 2009 you have a glut of unemployed workers who are nowhere close to retiring, able to do nothing but what they were assigned to do all of their lives, and are now forced to not only retrain against their will, but also compete with the thousands of present career-path white collar workers also unemployed, who in turn are forced to compete with people overseas who can live on $700 a month.

Please tell me HOW this present day "screw-em-all-let-God-sort-em-out" system is at all fair. PLEASE.

[Donnachaidh]

36. so those auto workers are supposed to become teachers?

Pumping money into colleges the UNEMPLOYED auto workers have to PAY for is NOT going to help those folks who need JOBS now. This IS a bread and circuses move on his part, and he's doing NOTHING for the folks who are losing their jobs, their savings and their homes NOW.

Nine billion dollars into a system that is unaffordable for the folks who NEED JOBS is stupid. How about those billions going directly to the unemployed? That would be a far better thing to do right now.

[Tansy_Gold]

74. The only wrong with your reasoning is that it's just circuses.

No bread.

[Hannah Bell]

88. better if he pushed it into jobs. "retraining" is a 30 year scam to pump $ into student loans.

[Trajan]

81. If DUzy's were offered for extreme cynicism ....

You would be the Mike Tyson of the DUzy champions .....

[hamsterjill]

116. Exactly, and how is he supposed to eat while he's being trained?

That's the part that always gets me. It's great to have opportunities for people to retrain, but what are they supposed to do for income in the meantime?

If they starve to death or lose everything while waiting to retrain, that pretty much defeats the purpose.

We need better solutions than this.

[high density]

16. I recall a previous horrific president was singing the same tune

That song was, go to community college and get a new skill for a new job. I laughed at Bush when he said it and I'll laugh at Obama for saying the same thing. I don't see how making a nation that's saturated with plumbers and diesel mechanics helps the economy when DC refuses to deal with trade deficit and the offshoring of high paying, skilled jobs like those of auto and IT workers.

[Royal Oak Rog]

28. Not true, Obama's put his money

where his mouth is, that's a huge difference!

[Donnachaidh]

40. no - he's put the money into institutions that the unemployed CANNOT afford

But hey, I guess they are supposed to go deeper in debt to his banking buddies in order to become *service employees* for the wealthy caste in this country. Class warfare at it's finest.

The company store is BACK with a vengeance.... :puke:

[high density]

43. OK.

More money for sure, but the same idea.

http://www.doleta.gov/comcol/">President Bush Announces Community College Initiative

President Bush's 2005 budget proposal includes $250 million for a new Community College Initiative. This program will help train workers to meet the needs of high-growth industries.

Adaptable and accessible, community colleges are vital partners in workforce development. The partnership between industry, which is driving the identification of skills, and community colleges, which are developing curricula and delivering training to prepare individuals to meet employers' demand, is a powerful economic development tool. Community colleges are increasingly critical providers of job training, both for degree-seekers and for workers seeking to retool, refine, and broaden their skills. To date, however, their potential has not been fully realized. The President's Budget builds on this potential by strengthening the role of community colleges in workforce development, providing $250 million for a new, employer-focused grant program for training in community and technical colleges. To receive funding, qualified applicants would be required to prepare a training plan with community colleges and employers, and certify that training would focus on industries with demonstrated labor shortages, such as health care and advanced manufacturing.

[OhioChick]

48. Looks like...."New Boss, same as the old boss" to me. n/t

[JeanGrey]

58. Actually, that would be OUR money.

[DatManFromNawlins]

138. Reminds me of the post-Katrina "jobs" programs.

These companies would train anyone to do any job that needed to be done. You could go to the community college and learn a skill and then work for either the recovery effort or for one of the local companies that lost its workers.

Anyone... as long as you did not have a college degree. I went to every job fair and applied for every one of these educational programs and was never accepted to any of them. While high school dropouts were making 15 bucks an hour helping with the recovery effort, I was forced to sit on the sidelines, after all, I had a computer science degree, but no training for any skills that were actually in demand.

[OhioChick]

39. Agreed. Getting that Deja Vu feeling all over again. n/t

[earth mom]

50. Yep, it's the EXACT same shit.

But when Obama does it, it's ALL good. :puke:

[Grinchie]

128. Make good money driving a Big Rig!

Too bad Diesel recently shot to 4.00 a gallon, and the tanks have a 1200 gallon capacity. That was another big scam during Reagan Bush.

[MichiganVote]

21. New jobs? How about any job.....this is such a crock of crap.

[Royal Oak Rog]

31. Eight years in a crater

is not an easy dig out. Can we have just a wee bit of patience? The administration is trying to do something here, let's support the public plan for health insurance, this train is just starting to roll, but roll it will.

[MichiganVote]

37. Patience is threadbare in Michigan and with good reason. Its time to spell that out.

[Zhade]

113. It'd be easier to dig ourselves out if this administration would stop dumping dirt in the crater.

NT!

[zalinda]

33. You mean like all the IT jobs?

We played this game in the 90's. People lost their jobs and were retrained to work in the IT field. So now what? What jobs? Where?

zalinda

[Hannah Bell]

91. i remember when it people were flying high. short-lived. the new economy of autos lasted 60 years.

the new economy of it (with concomittant large pool of high paid workers) lasted about 15.

economic cycles speed up under capitalism - but quo vadis/

[Iowa]

70. Yeah, throw more money at the education industry... that'll fix it.

Throwing money at "re-training" is what politicians do to cover their complicity in allowing (even encouraging) decent U.S. jobs to be exported to slave-wage countries. The problem isn't a need for training - it's a need for good-paying jobs. And I wouldn't be so quick to believe in "the new jobs and industries which he promised are coming". This is a guy who promises a lot of things. It's bullshit... the same recycled crap we heard in the 90s.

[Romulox]

107. It's the EXACT same thing George Bush, John McCain said.

[lindisfarne]

5. We ourselves contribute. How many people go out of their way to try to buy things produced in the US

by small businesses (focusing on small businesses increases the chance the money circulates within a community, or at least doesn't go to super-rich shareholders of a major international corporation.

I know - there's not much left that's made in the US. (And you have to watch it because US territories which can have horrid sweatshops can label things "Made in USA"). (I also understand that GM is no more "American" than is "Toyota").

Food is one area where there is plenty of US suppliers - and they're not just assembling parts from other areas of the world - they're creating the whole product in the US.

When you shop for food- do you pay attention to where your produce comes from? Are you willing to pay more to support a local - or at least American - supplier, especially if they pay a fair wage to their workers (sometimes, it's impossible to know, but with local producers, you often can, esp. if they primarily employ a few family members). It probably seems pretty unlikely we'd lose our food producers, but I can assure you, that's what they thought in the 1960s about our car manufacturers.

[Grinchie]

129. The Plants are now mostly GMO

Do not buy into the fallacy that GMO is the same as regular conventional crops.

Many countries will not buy our commodities anymore, despite severe pressure applied to them by the US Government.

Demand labeling of GMO and give us the same rights as Europeans get.

[rschop]

8. re: Obama says lost auto jobs are gone

From prior post:

"They are casualties of a changing economy. And that only underscores the importance of generating new businesses and industries to replace the ones we've lost, and of preparing our workers to fill the jobs they create," Obama will say.

What new industries does he suggest? These people in government keep trying to tell we don't need manufacturing or any of the old industries because we will have new industries, but they fail to tell us what will replace all of these older industries or the lost jobs.

No wonder we now have over a trillion dollar federal deficit which is never going down and a 300-700 billion dollar trade deficit each year.

What industries are left for the Christ sake, "printing little green bank notes'?

How did we get such complete idiots in our government?

[high density]

10. Also gone are all of the other manufacturing jobs, and now the IT jobs

So, what do we, the American workers, get left with in our "changing economy?" The long term outlook of this country is pretty bleak if our only industries become DC politics and the care-taking of the elite upper class that manages cheap offshore labor teams.

[WriteDown]

11. Those workers can be retrained too.

:sarcasm:

[MichiganVote]

20. Yeah, its going to take college education to wait tables and answer a phone.

[Rebubula]

42. Yes they can...

...at least in IT.

There is still a glut of IT jobs in the States. Sometimes you have to go buy some books (or borrow from library) and learn new languages (if you code) or updated Server\router systems (if you do networking) and then take tests and get certifications. I spent much of my free time (with 2 jobs there was not much) learning more about Cisco routers and got a CCNA and CCDP cert. I used that to get a new job in that field.

Yes...you may take a pay cut. I went down about 15% last year due to changing economy, but I taught myself some new stuff and got better qualified.

In the IT field, you CAN survive. And yes...mostly you must do it yourself.

Wringing your hands just keeps you from rolling up your sleeves. It is NOT a freeper ideal to 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' - that is a human ideal.

Obviously, this sort of certification upgrade does not apply to most lines of work, but if you have some computer skills, an understanding of math and networking - you can almost always get a job.

[okieinpain]

90. I agree, but the flow of this thread to me is leading

to only one thing, the government taking over businesses and running them. is that were this thread is going.

[Grinchie]

131. How many new languages are necessary a year.

I used to be in IT, but the reality is that it has turned into the Automotive industry, with planned obsolescence and forced upgrades.

I have found better things to do with my time than rewiting Hello World in whatever new improved language that they come up with this year, or go back and perform maintenance because the compiler has changed, or the OS has a new Service Pack, or a device driver conflicts with something, etc, etc, etc.

I may be out of the field, but I keep an eye on it, and I can tell you it has gotten much worse of the last 6 years in regards to unecessary complexity and bloat. If you want to spend the precious hours of your life configuring routers, then by all means go ahead, but there will come a day when you question why man has become the servant of a box full af silicon, and devotes most of his life tinkering with it for something as common as money, while he doesn't even know how to grow his own food.

It's all contrived anyway, and now that nanotechnology is here, most systems will likely be obsolete within 5 to 7 years.

[snooper2]

144. .net and java still running strong...

I work in Telecom and their are still jobs...If you know your shit.

the (Bloat) in the late 90's and early 2000-2001 contributed to a lot of unskilled not-needed BS positions and a lot of nepotism. We have a huge IT department and they are hiring on a small scale, if you know your shit. Most companies don't need the number of "IT" personnel as they thought they did 10 years ago. Managers on top of managers who had minimal skills. We hired "Technicians" when I was still at Worldcom in the end of the 90's and all they had to know was that there are 24 DS0 on a T1. It was ridiculous. IT was the same way. Oh, you loaded Windows 2000 all on your own? You're HIRED!

I was configuring NewBridge channel banks in 1993 when these folks were working at K-Mart. Companies all spending money and over-hiring because everything was rosey- then pop.

Luckily when the layoffs came and companies went bankrupt "most" of the folks who didn't have a clue were let go. So when somebody says I was in IT and I got laid off, I think twice. There are still some idiots around who know nothing and got in when the getting was good. Most at this time are in mid-management...

Ten years ago I was working on Cascade Frame-Relay switches and Cisco BPX ATM gear. Now I'm working on the latest and greatest VoIP technology ( from the customer premise to the core network ). You should always improve your skill sets. ( oh, and I only have a 2 year Associate Degree FYI )

[Grinchie]

149. Yep DotNet is my language of choice these days.

I may be a farmer, but I still do quite a bit of coding for my own purposes, as well as Database work.

Would never go back to designing software for the Big Corporations though. Life is too short to spend the time behind the screen, when you can enjoy life and actually solve other issues, such as educating oneself about the Mass Plague, Fraud, and Political Corruption running rampant in our society today.

Ecologically sensitive farming is much more rewarding than configuring a router.

A few months ago, Cisco had a few mandatory vacation days, and then there is this:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/14/cisco_layoff_rumor/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123561854124978947.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124776498318852643.html

WSJ seems to be obfuscating the dates of these articles, so I can't tell exactly when the stories were published.

Of course, CISCO is the big dog of network devices, so CISCO certainly is the poster child of IT, but don't be distracted by the Government and Military bailouts which are driving CISCO's strength at the moment. There is much fear and weakness in CISCO these day in the ranks of the lowly worker, according to my inside sources.

[wantoutnow]

14. you are witnessing the end stages of Capitalism

When they finish and own all of the wealth, they have no need to create any more businesses. They will have sucked us dry. Their goal will be to move their money into off shore bank accounts and laugh at the rest of us, while they tell us to f off and die. Thats the end game and not to many people get it. Its already happening. UBS anyone? literally trillions are sitting offshore.

[galileoreloaded]

29. Capitalism wont perish, you haven't even SEEN capitalism yet......

this is still a (poorly) managed market. Both socialism and the capitalism we have in the US are managed markets. What's coming is a truly free market, and that my friend will be truly ugly.

What this will in all likelihood devolve into is a libertarians free market. The gritty, in your face, ruthless, Lord of the Flies type of free market. The idea of a proletariat uprising/velvet revolution is gone, it left 30 years ago, when the US started to be stripped of its assets. What we get will be dog-eat-dog.

Book it.

I have VERY good sources re: policy/contingency operations. A little proof you say??? How about the Gulfstream flight number for the plane headed to Ohio w/ Palin on-board a full 16 hours prior to her being named as the VP candidate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3876297

The same sources are frantically moving assets and engaging in contingency planning, and have really stepped up the pace in the last 60 days.

I know people professionally, and those people are circling the wagons.

Get ready for the Randian nightmare.

[wantoutnow]

59. you are correct. Capitalism is feudalism with a kinder face.

Its going to devolve a lot worse than capitalism. Americans are going to get real familiar with how most of the rest of this planet lives. And most will still not get why. Cant fix ignorance, I guess. And I mean that in the most literal sense.

[Doremus]

66. frantically moving assets and engaging in contingency planning

Can you give us more specifics please?

They've "stepped up the pace" -- when is this 'libertarian's free market' coming down?
Where are they moving their assets to?
What are their contingency plans?


Inquiring minds want to know. ;)

[galileoreloaded]

71. Well, without opening myself up to suit, the prevailing wisdom seems to play

like Argentina 2001. As to contingencies, lets say *'s Paraguay ranch is a model, but on a smaller scale, 1000-3000 acres, pooled resources, several owners. A regular "Galts Gulch" if you will.

Big bucks being spent. $5-7 million per family/entity.

Best I can tell, they plan on dropping out and coming up for air.......later.

The craziest part....wine. MASSIVE, truckload purchases. I mean, enough for ten years.

Can't say much more.

[Doremus]

73. they plan on dropping out and coming up for air later

Tricky timing for a move like that, I would say.

Too early and you might jump the shark.

Too late and ...



Ah well, likely it won't happen anyway. That's what *my* source says. ;)

[galileoreloaded]

75. I hope not.....got little kids. But, my people, logistics clients if you will,

are definitely putting their money where their mouth is. It has been explained as a type of insurance policy.

FYI, I hope your sources don't include Hamden and depakid......their views tend to run to the old fashioned. No accounting for "new normal". But god bless em, they still believe in the system as a under regulated, but still transparent mechanism. Soooooo 1998.

J/K Guys and/or Gals.

[Hannah Bell]

95. the money men pay the peons to build stuff which the money men then own, &

in the process, the peons become dependent on the system owned by the money men.

build up one area, move the money to another & invest in owning *it.*

it's been going on for hundreds of years.

[Grinchie]

132. they might have a difficult time eating.

Unless they are happy with synthetic food within the walls of their compounds.

[Jim Sagle]

23. What do we get left with? Whatever crumbs our overlords goddamn well feel like leaving us.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[onehandle]

12. Pass crushing tariffs against Chinese imports. Michigan will happily take up the slack. nt

[Psephos]

76. that'll work great when the Chinese swear off buying Treasury debt

For two reasons: 1) because with their export income slashed, they'll won't have to worry about where to invest it, and 2) because they'll be pissed that the US is an unreliable business partner.

Meanwhile, the price of goods most needed by the lower classes (the stuff at Wal-Mart, to oversimplify) will skyrocket.

So, with Chinese withdrawal from financing the deficit, monster interest rates due to the shortage of other capital to make up the difference, and inflation of essential goods regressively smacking those already hurting, we'll sure show them.

[brentspeak]

85. What stuff at Wal-Mart do the lower classes need?

Is it possible to bbq a $15 DVD player?

[Hannah Bell]

93. we don't need their financing, in reality. & the chinese being #1 lender is as of the last couple

years.

& foreign debt = relatively small part of us debt.

but there are forces who *want* us in debt.

cause it benefits them.

[Psephos]

112. That's an interesting point of view about those who want us in debt

and a highly credible one, too. :)

I agree that there are other sources of capital to tap should the Chinese withdraw from active purchases of US debt. But the Treasury will have to offer higher interest rates to attract it. US debt sells for less than it should because of the traditional position of the dollar as a reserve currency, and the mythical aura of full faith and credit of the US backing it. Reality is catching up to that perception now. Interest paid on external debt is going to consume an ever-larger part of the budget for two reasons: because we are spending at astronomical deficit levels, and because the interest rates on that exploding debt are going to be re-priced. Future interest rates will price in the economic drag of irresponsible government spending and the risk that the debt is going to be addressed through inflation, or less likely, actual repudiation.

[Hannah Bell]

96. good plan except the people passing the laws don't work for us.

that's why they've been passing the opposite sort of laws since the 70s.

[rschop]

13. RE: Lost jobs, new industry

Idea for new industry:

Maybe we can have a robust travel industry so we all can go visit our old jobs now lost to China and India!

[Vidar]

15. And Obama did his best to help.

[MichiganVote]

22. We're not stupid and we're not children in Michigan. Be nice if Obama realized that.

Bush sure as hell didn't.

[Vidar]

34. I agree. I live in Michigan too.

[MichiganVote]

35. Honestly, its hard not to feel exasperated by yet another politician who wants to preach

to the choir. Even if it is Obama. He is a smarter man than this so why he of all people lectures us in Michigan is beyond me.

[Hannah Bell]

97. think harder.

[Romulox]

108. ...the BANKING INDUSTRY! The auto industry? Forced bankruptcy, shredded union contracts.

Banksters? Taxpayer funded bonuses under the aegis of "sanctity of contract". :puke:

[jody]

17. Along with other sectors. See BuzzFlash Mailbag, August 7, 2003.

They kept taking

First they took our steel mill jobs, and the people ignored the cries of steel mill workers.

Then they took our textile jobs, and the people ignored the cries of textile workers.

Then they took our automotive jobs, and the people ignored the cries of automotive workers.

Then they took our high-tech jobs, and the people ignored the cries of high-tech workers.

Then they bribed the people's representatives in Washington and the people ignored their loss.

And the only jobs left were in the U.S. Foreign Legion, defending the worldwide assets of those who had taken the people's jobs and stolen the people's government.

The people shouted, "We the people are dead, long live the corporation."

And the high priests of Mammon laughed about how easy it was to destroy the world's longest running, most successful experiment in democracy.

And the thirsty and hungry and sick and imprisoned and naked prayed to Mammon to have mercy on their wretched. miserable bodies because the people had lost the very soul of democracy

[Earth Bound Misfit]

92. Pledge Allegiance to the Flag...

:kick:

[MichiganVote]

19. Changing economy as in we're giving your jobs to other countries thru poor trade.

Some "agreement". Yeah, we know they're gone. Do you know where your tax base will be politicians? No, didn't think you had figured that one out.

[jody]

25. Why should politicians worry about a tax base when their campaigns are financed by corporatists

who collaborate with wealthy elite from other nations to establish a New World Order to be policed by the U.S. Foreign Legion if detente can be established with China/India who will dominate the world economy in the 22nd century.

[MichiganVote]

38. Exactly right. They are all destroying this country bit by bit.

[Hannah Bell]

98. the west owned india & china in the 19th century. Forbes Co is the oldest corporation in

India (established by a relation of john forbes kerry) & its assets are now owned by the descendants of East India Co compradors.

Things not what they seem.

[jody]

115. Exactly, corporatist predators pillaged foreign countries under the protection of western military

arms and now the descendants of those corporatists are quietly pillaging the U.S. while politicians keep voters bitterly divided over polarizing issues like god, gays, guns, etc.

As has been suggested many times on DU, one should read "WAR IS A RACKET" by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient Major General Smedley D. Butler - USMC Retired.

[Jkid]

24. Here's some new industires.

The railroad industry and the clean energy industry. Why not get started now?

[Psephos]

77. The railroad industry???

You mean "the Internet of the 19th Century"?

omg we're screwed

[amandabeech]

140. Back to the Future, Part III, could not have been more prescient.

n/t

[Algorem]

26. could learn to be a real superior liar and go into politics

[Beacool]

30. Interesting..........

And what is his recommendation for those who already have bachelor degrees, masters and PhDs, but STILL can't get a job? Will a Community College help them too?

Meanwhile, what are all the millions of people unemployed supposed to live on while they get an Associates degree?

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

44. You want fries with that?

[OhioChick]

45. McDonald's isn't even hiring here. n/t

[DainBramaged]

47. unless WE ACCELERATE GREEN TECHNOLOGY AND INDUSTRY BUILDING

the auto workers out of work will be homeless and out of society.

[OhioChick]

49. Guess you didn't get the memo:

Green jobs are already being outsourced to China and India.

[jody]

55. The only green jobs left are harvesting crops grown in CA et al but more crops are being grown on

mega-farms in South America using farming skills and equipment from the U.S. and cheap local labor.

[OhioChick]

57. More jobs that Americans wouldn't do, huh?

:sarcasm:

[jody]

53. Already many auto workers are out of work, homeless, out of society and politicians only talk & talk

A close friend, military chaplain, said "When all is said and done, more is said than done".

It doesn't seem to matter who controls the executive or legislative branches, bills are passed and signed into law that inexorably move us closer to a corporate state.

The only remaining key is some force to unify labor.

That's precisely what Mussolini did in Italy and what the wealthy elite tried to do in 1933 with the White House Putsch to overthrow FDR.

Benito Mussolini said "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power."

[girl gone mad]

54. It's funny how blue collar workers are "casualties of a changing economy"..

but Wall Street workers must be heavily subsidized so they can continue to pull down millions in ill-gotten bonuses.

[DainBramaged]

62. Main Street gets fucked ALWAYS

[jody]

119. Main Street is treated more like Back Street. n/t

[mbperrin]

65. That IS odd, isn't it? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

got me stumped, unless it's because all the politicians and Wall Streeters are asshole buds who'd betray the rest of the country for themselves and lots of money...

Nah, that can't be it....

[LatteLibertine]

56. I thought Obama said he was going to work on bringing some of these jobs back

and that was before he was elected too.

I'm glad Obama is in rather than McSame and this stuff is disappointing.

[dysfunctional press]

60. the lint brush that saved flint....

[mamaleah]

63. What industries to replace these? The ones to be filled with H-1B

visa holders or industries that will be moved to Mexico within 10 years?

Or maybe more call centers headed for India?

[Tim01]

67. Green and guns.

Actually, auto places could probably be retooled very easily to help with the current ammo shortage. But it isn't going to last.

The green industry SHOULD be her to stay, for lots of good reasons. Get off our oil dependence, and pull our troops back to our own country.

I hope the oil companies/government don't send someone after me for suggesting such things. I might end up labeled up a terrorist and disappeared in some secret prison.

[and-justice-for-all]

69. At least he is being honest..

instead of pulling a "The fundamentals of the economy are strong" bullshit line.

[Psephos]

78. I'd be more impressed with, "he's being honest AND reversing the job loss" n/t

[okieinpain]

94. how does he reverse the job loss. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

99. oh, please. it's not due to the hand of God, you know. it's not a natural force like

a hurricane.

human interests & agency create "the economy".

mostly rich humans.

[okieinpain]

102. yes sir, but I'm curious. if you had the power, what steps would you take

to stop the job loss, create new jobs. just curious.

[Romulox]

111. I'd distribute the $12 TRILLION promised to banksters to working people.

You act like it isn't government actors using taxpayer monies who are deciding the winners and losers here. The old "free market" cant reads like cognitive dissonance, given the fact that economy is being supported on the back of the US taxpayer. :hi:

[Romulox]

109. He isn't honest at all. He has a blank check for Wall Street, but says "retrain" to Michigan.

:hi:

[blue_onyx]

72. Education is good

but I think Obama needs to focus on bring some of these jobs back. I don't accept the idea that these aren't coming back. If we would spend a little time changing our trade policies to benefit our companies and our citizens, our country would be better off.

Right now, education won't help much. I have a 4 year degree and can't find a job. We can educate everyone but that won't matter until there's new jobs.

[wordpix]

79. does this mean our millions (billions?) in auto bailouts are lost, too?

:shrug:

[Psephos]

125. if you think any of that money is coming home again you need stronger meds n/t

[Rex]

80. Wealthy 1 Working Stiffs 0

Yeah, go back to school after working for years at the same job. What a scam. Wealthy people win again. What a surprise.

[caseymoz]

82. I admire his balls, but he has to learn: this economy is not recovering.

It won't recover unless people have something to spend.

[Hannah Bell]

100. he already knows. all is on schedule for the no growth economy of the future.

with its permanent pool of immiserated unemployed labor.

[caseymoz]

126. That's somewhat doubtful.

If unemployment keeps on going up, this country is going to become very unstable. Already people can't afford apartments so they are moving in with relatives, who right now can't afford their houses. With your picture of Karl the Great, I can tell that you're probably waiting for the worldwide revolution. Marx has certainly been astute about the troubles with capitalism. Obama is not so informed about that. He's a centrist who has to go left sometime.

[excess_3]

84. so other jobs are not good enuf for ex-auto workers? .n/t

[brentspeak]

86. What other jobs?

[excess_3]

130. the autoworkers could have bought GM ...

and Chrysler, for the loose change I have in my pocket.

then they could pay themselves anything they want,
and hire themselves back.

[raccoon]

103. I have to give him credit for telling it like it is. Where new jobs are going to come from, I

don't know.

[Mari333]

104. 300 auto related jobs here gone last week in Michigan

the last plant in my small town, closed its doors for good. the city council tried to get a new buyer , but nothing came of that. the town has a pop. of 2000 people and a 13.08 percent unemployment rate. used to have 5000 people. doh.
actually, as the poor poor people move out, their shoddy poor homes are being bought up by wealthy chicago people who are making them into second homes (because the town is by the lake)..and they use the town in the summer.
sooo the only *jobs* now are service jobs, which are rare to find. clerk , cashier, burger flipper. minimum wage. and the ultility rates just jumped 29 percent. eventually, if this keeps up, there wont be any local people left here. just tourists with second homes .
One of the most influential homeowners here has a whole WING dedicated to him at the Art Institute of Chicago..
the other day, one of the men who works for him as a caretaker, told me "he doesnt even like to pay minimum wage...he prefers to pay less than that if he can , under the table"

see, if really wealthy people paid a DECENT WAGE maybe they wouldnt have to donate to charity..

well, at least Michigan has water.

[kpominville]

105. 22% Unemployment in Michigan!!!

According to this map from the NYT, the real, adjusted unemployment rate in Michigan is already 22%!!!
If you can create "green" manufacturing jobs then you can bring back some auto jobs. They are both manufacturing! We are either going to have a manufacturing base or we are not.
Time to choose, Mr. President! Are we going to have a "service economy" or a real economy where we actually make things we can export.

[Xenotime]

117. What are people there doing?

[Psephos]

124. "Funemployment" n/t

[BeatleBoot]

134. Cashing in their 401K's and either living off of it or

paying off what they can.

I'm lucky to be working in Michigan.

I am currently taking a "Staycation".

Mrs. Beatleboot went to happy hour yesterday afternoon. I saw a former co-worker there and he told me he's been out of work for 18 months now.

He's college educated with 26 years experience and the only thing he can find is bagging groceries on a part time basis.

Pretty scary, no?

[Romulox]

106. In related news: ANOTHER round of taxpayer bonuses for AIG workers have been sent out! nt

[jody]

118. I've had all the stimulus I and my descendants can afford. n/t

[DainBramaged]

120. Yup and the Japanese quietly bailed out Toyota and Honda

Volkswagen is expanding their Mexico plant (that produces beetles) to the tune of $1B to ship here. Al least the Japanese and Koreans build here, the Germans give us the finger but will gladly sell us cars. (And Brazil GM is expanding their plant, but they are an independent arm of GM. But someone will find fault with that).

[TankLV]

121. "They're not "dead" - they're just pining for the FORDS!!!"

[amandabeech]

141. I just spewed my coffee. n/t

[mule_train]

136. They can retrain for Information technology jobs

oh wait - i forgot

well, they can retrain for soemthing at a community college

just as soon as we figure out what they can retrain for

education - that's the key

[Psephos]

145. Maybe they can retrain to work at a community college as retrainers. n/t

[Romulox]

139. The taxpayers had no problem protecting Wall Street jobs whatsoever.

Strange.

[amandabeech]

142. A tariff based on lack of environmental and labor standards in the country of origin

would help.

However, with the WTO standing in the way, it might be difficult.

I wonder whether the passage Obama's cap and trade bill would give us more leverage?

[mule_train]

146. that was the whole point of tarrifs

before both parties got drunk on globalism

[sarcasmo]

143. One for the no shit file.

[hedgehog]

151. Am I the only one who read the article at the link?

"They are the casualties of a changing economy...And that only underscores the importance of generating new businesses and new industries to replace the ones that we've lost, and of preparing our workers to fill the jobs they create," he said.

Education is the often-forgotten third pillar of Obama's economic plan and has received far less attention than the other two -- healthcare reform and renewable energy.


Then, there's this:

Advisers to Mr. Obama say they want to use the economic crisis as an opportunity to act on many of the issues he emphasized in his campaign, including cutting taxes for lower- and middle-class workers, addressing neglected public infrastructure projects like roads and schools, and creating “green jobs” through business incentives for energy alternatives and environmentally friendly technologies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/us/politics/23obama.html?_r=1&hp

It ain't going to happen by the end of the month, but things are changing for the better.