Man who wore gun to Obama rally goes on trial

[RamboLiberal]

Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Testimony began this morning in the trial of a man charged with disrupting a public meeting for taking a gun to an Obama campaign rally in Beaver last year.

John Noble, of Industry, openly carried his Glock pistol to the Aug. 29 outdoor rally at a park across the street from the Beaver County courthouse. The gun was licensed and open carry is legal in most places in Pennsylvania.

John Atkinson, of Beaver, testified that he saw Mr. Noble with his gun holstered at his hip and alerted authorities. "I was scared for my family because it's the situation of it -- the first black guy nominated to be president of the United States," Mr. Atkinson said, "All the crazy things people do these days, you never know what's going to happen."

Mr. Noble did not cause a noticeable disturbance. He was carrying a Bible and handing out pro-gun fliers. Three law enforcement officers testified that Mr. Noble was compliant and they detained him because they were told to watch for suspicious people and anyone with a weapon.






Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09196/984062-100.stm

---

Pennsylvania is a state that allows open carry though not many gun owners practice it and doing so is an invitation for harrasment by law enforcement. That being said IMHO it's not really wise to open carry near a politcal rally of a presidential candidate I don't care if it's Obama, Biden, McCain or Palin. Be interesting to see what happens in this trial. If convicted I'd bet there will be appeals.

Related News:

Supporters Bring Guns To Beaver Courthouse For Obama Rally Trial

John Noble's supporters -- including the man's daughter -- checked their firearms with security as they showed up for the 51-year-old man's trial on charges of disorderly conduct and disrupting a public meeting.

Noble -- who also carried a Bible at the Aug. 29 rally in Beaver's Irvine Park -- has said he did nothing wrong by trying to show Obama "that Pennsylvanians do, in fact 'cling to their guns and religion."'

Two of Noble's supporters at the courthouse told Channel 4 Action News that his arrest and subsequent trial were unnecessary and violated his rights.

The criminal complaint filed by state police Trooper Shawn L. Schexnaildre said that the sight of Noble carrying a weapon "created a public alarm," and police said they believed he intended to cause a disruption because he had posted on a Web site that he was taking his gun to the rally to "test what would happen."

Federal authorities said they did not charge Noble because he did not try to pass through metal detectors that were set up for people who were coming to the rally.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/20063353/detail.html

On edit photo of arrest:

[slackmaster]

1. I agree with RamboLiberal's assessment.

...IMHO it's not really wise to open carry near a politcal rally of a presidential candidate...

[meegbear]

2. Exactly!

And making statements like "I was scared for my family because it's the situation of it -- the first black guy nominated to be president of the United States" is not gonna help your case.

[RamboLiberal]

6. That was the witness who made that statement

Just wanted to clarify - I wasn't sure if you misread.

[RamboLiberal]

4. I should add law enforcement is called in many of these cases

because the public really don't know open carry is legal and it naturally freaks many out. Then it becomes a matter if the law enforcement who show up know open carry is legal and the feelings of any property owners the gun owner happens to be on if allowed. This guy is one of those who was intentionally setting out to test his rights by creating a confrontation IMHO.

[Xithras]

35. Indeed. Few urbanites are aware that California is a rural open carry state...

...a fact that has led to a lot of headaches for rural dwellers. California law basically says that firearms can be carried openly in farm, forest, and agricultural areas, can be openly discharged a certain distance from developed residences, and can even be carried into some rural businesses.

That doesn't stop the suburbanites using farm road shortcuts from dialing 911 when they see "some nut with a machine gun" walking down the side of the road. When one of them called on me (my "machine gun" was a bolt action .22 with birdshot), I had the misfortune to have a fresh green rookie deputy respond, who was apparently as unfamiliar with California gun laws as the original caller was. I'm damned licky the jumpy idiot didn't shoot me, and that was the last time I carried near the front of my property.

[paulsby]

7. while that is true

what is wise and what is legal are two entirely different things. i;m not sure how you can prosecute a guy for exercising his civil rights, and in PA it seems to be the law. i live in WA state. open carry is legal here, too. as a police officer, i am not going to detain or question somebody for open carry. that would be a violation of their rights. however, i am assuming that some sort of no carry or no open carry rule could be enacted at a rally. but if the rally is in a public place, it may be problematic.

[The abyss]

25. Paulsby – I am impressed! Thank you!

And no, I am not being sarcastic.

[ngant17]

29. possesion of firearms by mentally-unbalanced persons

is not illegal where I live, I know a neighbor who is having a problem like that, his daughter lives in his house, she has certified "mental problems" and she also owns her mother's shotgun, also there's some friction from the previous marriage, so it's like smoking a cig next to a can of hi-test gasoline. A restraining order is being applied in this case.

The best place to walk around with a loaded gun and holster would be a pro-lifer or neo-nazi rally. Even if he is mentally stable, picking on an Obama rally was really poor taste, especially when you consider the number of threats BO received since running for the presidency.

[paulsby]

34. our history is full of examples of

people being denied civil rights because the state deemed them "mentally imbalanced" on the flimsiest of evidence. recall that until recently, homosexuality was a "mental disorder". people who are adjudicated mentally ill (which is based on identifiable clinical criteria) lose their rights to carry. but that;'s more than being simply depressed, bipolar, etc. i work with a cop who is diagnosed bipolar. she takes her meds, and is an upstanding officer. should that disease disqualify her? would we deny her a right to vote too? paranoid schizophrenic is one thing, borderline personality (as a counter-example) is another. "the best place" to woalk around with a gun in a holster is just as much a pro-choice rally as a pro-life rally. arguably MORESO the former, since those on the left are LESS likely to respect the 2nd amendment unfortunately. that should change. recently, wa state open carry made a point to go to a large outdoor kitsap county event and carry openly to educate everybody (left an right). kitsap cty has an unconstitutional ordinance against carrying at certain public properties, but since it's unenforceable , the right to carry group decided to exercise their rights. kitsap cty sheriff's didn't do anything because they knew the law was feel good kneejerk unconstitutional legislation and is unenforceable. and people were educated. i agree. *i* wouldn't open carry at a presidential rally, though

[Paladin]

36. Yeah, Those People Were "Educated" All Right....

Nothing like a bunch of yahoos wandering around at a public event with pistols strapped on their hips to "educate" the populace. That's just overt public intimidation, nothing more, nothing less; it's the difference between people being grateful for actually being educated, and people being grateful for not being shot. And by all means, let's dispatch such cadres to pro-choice rallies, because Gawd knows, there's some 2nd Amendment "educating" to be done there, what with "those on the left" needing to learn some "respect."

And yet....you end by stating that you wouldn't openly carry at a presidential rally. Why the hell not? If you're going to support the notion a bunch of openly-armed goons prowling around a pro-choice rally, what problem do you have with a group of them sitting in the very front row of a presidential rally, within a few feet of Obama as he gives a speech? Hey, as long as they're all on their meds, how could anything possibly go wrong?

[paulsby]

37. if you could get over your prejudices and bigotry,

it would be possible to have a conversation. people who choose to open carry are not "yahoos' and open carry is not "overt public intimidation". it's called a CIVIL RIGHT. it is no more "intimidation" than carrying a war protest sign.

then, you refer to open carry people as "goons".

again, when you can get over your prejudice and bigotry and discuss this issue without childish name calling, i'd love to have a discussion. otherwise, i can talk to a 10 yr old and get a similar level of discourse.

open carry is a constitutionally protected right in WA state. it does not make one a "goon" or a "yahoo" to exercise that right.

and your dismissal of mentally ill people, such as bipolar is noted.

[Paladin]

39. Next Time Somebody Uses A War Protest Sign.......

...to turn a school or church or shopping mall into a slaughterhouse, let us all know.

And just to re-affirm: open-carry is in fact public intimidation. What factors cause an individual not involved in law enforcement to conclude that concealed-carry of a pistol just isn't satisfying enough, and that open-carry is the only way to go? I have yet to hear a detailed justification of such thinking that squares with a healthy mental attitude; care to give it a try? (No points for a typical "It's a civil right, so just fuck you" response, by the way).

You know what's really ironic about all this, of course....Gun militancy is currently at the top of the heap in this country. Scalia's Supreme Court delivered the gift-wrapped Heller decision to you, and Democrats are in full retreat as to any meaningful gun control measures. You guys basically have it dicked; it'll take something like another major political assassination to reverse the trend that's in your favor right now. But as somebody here at DU very wisely observed not too long ago: even in the most positive circumstances, the gun rights movement never, ever behaves as if it has won, only as if it has lost. I was watching the DU Guns forum when the Heller decision came out: a stunning victory for your side, and yet it was only good for about 2 days of smug, triumphal satisfaction---then it was right back to the same old Evil Liberals Coming In Black Helicopters To Get Our Guns paranoia that you've reveled in for decades. This open-carry thing is part and parcel of that sick, loser mindset. It's just not enough that concealed carry is so widely available; no, guns must be openly flourished for maximum impact on the citizenry, maximum "education." It is thuggish, intimidating behavior, with no practical or wholesome redeeming features, but beyond that.....it's unnecessary.

I stand by my previous comments.....

[paulsby]

44. you don't need to justify an exercise of a constitutional right

personally, i am involved in law enforcement, but i suuport the rights of non-LEO's. in WA state, those rights include the right to open carry. nobody needs to justify why they choose to exercise that civil right, any more than they need to justify concealed carry. you have yet to apologize for calling people who open carry as "yahoos" and "goons". i note the bigotry.

[Paladin]

45. Sorry, No Points For You.

Like I said, no credit given for "It's a civil right, so just fuck you" responses---which is exactly what you came up with. You may not need to justify an exercise of a right---but it's always a good idea to consider whether exercising said right is always a good idea, in the larger scheme of things. Keep pushing this confrontational open carry thing and just see what effect it has on public opinion, concerning gun rights. (Always nice to offer good advice to an opponent, with the sure-and-certain knowledge that said advice won't be followed.)

And get this straight: My use of the terms "yahoos" and "goons" (fully justified, in my opinion) pales to insignificance, compared to your advocating the presence of openly armed individuals at a pro-choice rally, for the express purpose of "educating" attendees as to the proper "respect" due the almighty Second Amendment. Wrong country, wrong century, if you know what I mean, Herr Paulsby....

[paulsby]

46. ah, a nazi reference

how adult. now, i am "herr paulsby" for daring to support civil rights. how ironic. you keep demeaning yourself with your bigotry. it's very revealing and very sad. it's especially ironic that you use this reference because the real nazis loved gun control, not empowering citizens with the RIGHT to carry openly and/or concealed. so, pot kettle black. hth

[Paladin]

51. Now That's Gratitude For You.

Here I spend time giving you and your gun militant friends some really good advice about the whole open carry thing, and you're all huffy. Tell you what, sport: you and your movement just go right ahead and pursue your idea of having openly-armed ideologues turn up at meetings weighted toward Democrats across the country. I mean, just get after it---don't let a single pro-choice rally, ACLU meeting, NAACP ceremony, LGBT organizing event or Obama fundraiser occur without a bunch of your sweet, well-meaning guys showing up and pointing out to folks the "educational" aspects of a Glock 10mm, sexily suspended on an outer thigh for all to see. Keep up the good work, and after a while let's compare notes on what sort of favors you've done the gun rights movement. Sarah Brady sends her best wishes, by the way....

[paulsby]

53. i'm not a gun militant, nor an abortion militant, or a speech militant

i am an advocate for civil rights. some of us support civil rights. others, like you, only a select subset.

[Paladin]

54. What Portion Of Your DU Posts Deal With Any Portion Of The BOR....

...other than the 2nd Amendment? Gun militants are the very definition of single-issue activists, and merely saying you're an advocate for civil rights doesn't make it so. I'll give you credit for coming up into the Real World DU forums to do battle; that's a damned sight more than most of your Gun Dungeon pals are willing to do.....

[paulsby]

55. i've spent metric assloads of time advocating on 1st amendment issues here

often going against the "if it's hateful it should be illegal" anti-free speech crowd here. try searching. i spend at LEAST as much time on 1st amendment issues as i do on 2nd.

[RamboLiberal]

8. I wouldn't even carry concealed near a rally

Unless it was inadvertent that I didn't know the rally was happening and I was just passing by. I respect the Secret Service has a job to do keeping these candidates safe and are not in a mood to have private citizens with guns around them.

[zbdent]

13. you can't even take an umbrella ...

it was funny ... when Bush was in Richfield Ohio, it was dreary and raining (fitting for the train wreck that was appearing).

It was very unlikely that the orgasmic crowd that got in to the private property to fellate Bush en masse would harbor someone who had a negative thought about Bush. Likely, the intense screening process would have weeded out an independent thought.

But they were still not allowed to carry an umbrella in ...

[Winterblues]

38. IMO it is an implied threat

No one else deemed it necessary to cary a gun to a political event, so him by doing so was trying to intimidate or threaten. He should be charged and jailed.

[Wickerman]

3. similar to yelling Fire in a crowded theater

but slightly more legal?

I agree, dumb idea. Within his rights as defined by Penn Law, but not worth the trouble and expense it will cause him and I doubt it will win many converts to his view points.

[paulsby]

9. not similar at all

and god i hate this meme.

it's FALSELY yelling fire in a crowded theatre, first of all.

second of all, it was a legal analogy used to justify prosecution of a WAR PROTESTOR, which was analogized to falsely yelling fire in a crowded theatre.

and third, the case Schenck was SUPERSEDED by brandenberg and is no longer the law of the land.

not to mention that there is no correlation whatsoever between the two acts.

in my state, open carry is identified as a civil right under our constitution. can't speak for PA, but it is at least protected under the penal code, if not a constitutional right. the latter is more likely, but i haven't researched their law.

[Wickerman]

12. In your haste to practice your right to righteous indignagtion you skimmed over the salient point

I said its his legal right. It was pretty fucking stupid to, however. It is metaphorically akin (not legally) to Falsely (happy?) yelling fire in that it causes unneeded panic.

[paulsby]

15. fair enough

this is possibly the most misused and misunderstood phrase i see on the internet (the fire/theater thang). a close second would be the "you can't prove a negative" one).

but i concede you do have a point. so, i bow to your explanation. good job

[Wickerman]

22. Actually, the whole yelling fire in theater thingy was once considered

a test of comprehension on an IQ test. It wasn't a legal question, it was a question of moral responsibility. I have no idea of the legality issue; when it was deemed legal or no. I'm only aware of the statement being used as a measure of reasoning. In that sense I don't think it is misused at all and not analogous in any way to the "...negative" issue. YMMV.

:hi:

[Abq_Sarah]

52. I would suggest

The people who had a hissy fit over the idiot exercising his right were also yelling "fire".

Plenty of stupidity to go around on both sides.

[tblue37]

40. Where in the Constitution do you find open carry as a right?

It certainly is not in the Second Amendment.

[RamboLiberal]

41. FYI DA used the yelling Fire in the theater

in his closing arguments.

[RamboLiberal]

42. Posted wrong place n/t

[Robb]

5. That "test what would happen" will be his undoing.

No reasonable person could view that as anything other than an intent to create public alarm.

[paulsby]

10. rubbish

this "reasonable person" could view it that way. many people don't like open carry here in WA. but it's the law of the land, and a constitutionally protected right.

our courts have ruled that is is NOT reasonable to be affronted or alarmed by somebody openly carrying AS LONG AS the handgun is in a holster.

you can be affronted or alarmed by a guy standing in a park and preaching the end of the world. but it's still constitutionally protected

[rrneck]

11. Test what would happen.

Now he knows. Dumbass.

[Paladin]

14. He Deserves To Be On Trial.

Showing up with an openly carried pistol, a Bible and flyers at a rally for a Democratic, minority presidential candidate is an intelligence test. This guy flunked. He invited this sort of result, probably prayed for it. Save your sympathy for someone who's worthy of it......

[Alcibiades]

16. In America, you're not allowed a corkscrew

of nail clippers, or tiny little scissors, or a three-penny nail, or toothpaste, shampoo or any other liquid in any quantities over three ounces in carry on baggage on any aircraft. Breast milk, prescription meds and medical equipment of every sort are all to be investigated. 100% of these items will never cause any danger to anyone: they are confiscated putely for show, to make folks feel "safer."

But apparently some folks think it's OK to bring a handgun to see a presidential candidate, despite the fact that this is the weapon that has most commonly been used in assasinations and attempted assassinations in the US.

[rurallib]

17. Guy's gotta be dumber than a box of ball-peens if he thought

he could get away with that.
Would he think he could have gotten away with it at a McCain rally or a GWB hand-picked audience gathering?

[mrbarber]

18. Yikes. Complicated case here.

[sfwriter]

19. Woah... God bless him for doing this.

I'm not against people obeying the law.

He was making a political point, and quite contrary to what he thinks, he reinforced Obama's statement about religion and guns.

Sounds like he handled himself well. I can think of a lot of right wingers who have not.

[mitchum]

20. He should have also worn an army jacket and given himself a mohawk

what an ass

[RamboLiberal]

21. Closing arguments tomorrow (Thursday)

Closing arguments will begin Thursday morning in the trial of a man who brought a gun to a Barack Obama rally last summer.

-----

Noble says his intent was a "quiet protest."

"We have nothing left in western Pennsylvania but our guns and bibles," he told the court.

http://kdka.com/local/john.noble.trial.2.1086610.html

[RamboLiberal]

23. Interesting - the guy who called cops on him is a gun owner

"I also carry a firearm, and I didn't bring mine that day. In my opinion, that wasn't the time nor the place," said John Atkinson, a Beaver County resident who reported Noble during the rally.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/20063353/detail.html

[RamboLiberal]

24. This reports says he did breach what Secret Service considered

secured perimeter.

Noble was apprehended by officers from Beaver Borough Police Department, Beaver County Sheriff's Office and Pennsylvania State Police and Secret Service agents after he allegedly breached the secured perimeter of the political rally.

Police said Noble posted on the Pa. Firearm Owners Association Web site days before the rally, "Bring your gun and Bible to Beaver tonight. Let's show Obama how we hug our bibles and guns."

http://www.wpxi.com/news/17371632/detail.html

[DainBramaged]

26. "Let's show Obama how we hug our bibles and guns."

These people are dangerous, I am sorry and if you disagree fine. Hug this.

[obliviously]

27. Nutty as a fruit cake! N/T

[pipoman]

28. I'm not seeing how,

if a conviction is won, this could survive an appeal. If open carry is legal, if there were no notification of restriction of firearms in the area, a conviction would set a precedent which could lead to anyone open carrying a firearm being charged with "created a public alarm,".

and police said they believed he intended to cause a disruption because he had posted on a Web site that he was taking his gun to the rally to "test what would happen."

I sure hope they checked his internet postings before they arrested him, otherwise I can't see how this is even admissible.

Now, as has been previously stated, this was stupid and asking for trouble. I think they should have handled this in the same way they often handle known disruptors at other Presidential events. Take the person in for questioning which generally lasts until the President has come and gone, then they are released without charges.

[Blandocyte]

30. Shoulda had a "free speech zone" for him to stay in

maybe at the nearest gun range. As it was, I guess he was taken to the free speech zone they keep downtown. The one with the locks on the outsides of the doors?

[Mad_Dem_X]

31. Carrying a Bible, a gun, and pro-gun literature

The religious nutcases always seem to carry guns with their bibles.

[RamboLiberal]

32. Thursday morning story Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

-----

On opencarry.org, Mr. Noble wrote, "Come to beaver tonite and show Obama what a Bible toten gun owner really looks like." The posts seem to undercut his assertion on the stand that he was not offended by Mr. Obama's comments.

Beaver County Judge Harry E. Knafelc, in dismissing a motion by Mr. Colafella asking for a judgment of acquittal, said he would have thrown the case out if not for the blog posts.

But, despite the Internet bluster, was there a disturbance at all? The commotion came only after police arrived and put him in handcuffs.

Beaver County Sheriff's Deputy Sgt. Richard Yonlisky testified that when he detained Mr. Noble, he asked why Mr. Noble brought the gun.

Mr. Noble responded, "Because I'm an American."

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09197/984278-57.stm#ixzz0LQo4F5M1

[RamboLiberal]

33. Closing arguments

Frank Martocci, the prosecutor, said openly carrying a gun to the political rally was "the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded movie theater." He said free speech must be weighed against others' rights to peaceably assemble.

The attorney for Mr. Noble, Stephen Colafella, said it's not Pennsylvania's place to legislate or dictate under what circumstances a person can exercise a lawful right. Rather, he said, a political rally was the right place for Mr. Noble to openly carry a gun as a political demonstration.

"He wasn't there to disturb anyone or break up the rally. He was there to promote an issue that is important to him."

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09197/984366-100.stm#ixzz0LR2H6FTa

If I was a betting person I bet jury comes back not guilty.

[RamboLiberal]

43. Jury Frazzled - jurors asked a judge to clarify intent and what constitutes a disturbance

The jury deciding the fate of a Beaver County man accused of bringing a gun to a campaign rally for President Barack Obama last year went home without a verdict.

The judge says the jury in the trial of John Noble asked to go home because they were "frazzled."

-----

About two hours after the jury got the case, they asked a judge to clarify intent and what constitutes a disturbance.

If jurors find him guilty of this third-degree misdemeanor, Noble could face as much as one year in jail and fines totaling $2500.

http://kdka.com/beaver/John.Noble.Trial.2.1088035.html

I'm betting they come back Not Guilty or a hung jury. Just a gut feeling from what I know of that county.

[slackmaster]

50. Littering, and creating a disturbance

[Devil_Fish]

47. if it is legal, what is he charged with? NT

[X_Digger]

48. "disorderly conduct and disrupting a public meeting"..

.. according to http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/20063353/detail.html

Ahh, disorderly conduct.. what you charge someone when you can't find anything else.

[The abyss]

49. Update:acquitted

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/20090717_ap_wpamanacquittedincaseofgunatobamarally.html

W.Pa. man acquitted in case of gun at Obama rally


BEAVER, Pa. - A western Pennsylvania man has been cleared of criminal charges after bringing his handgun to a campaign rally for President Barack Obama.
John Noble, of Industry, wore the 9 mm on a holster and carried a Bible to the August rally to protest Obama's remark that Americans who felt left out by the system clung to guns and religion. The rally was in Beaver, about 30 miles north of Pittsburgh.