Obama administration green lights logging in Tongass National Forest

[villager]

Source: Mother Nature News

Obama administration green lights logging in Tongass National Forest


Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack gave his personal approval for a 381-acre clear-cut in America's largest stand of temperate rain forest.
The Obama administration has approved the sale of timber from the Tongass National Forest in Alaska. The 17-million acre forest is the largest stand of continuous temperate rain forest in the U.S. and contains a lot of old-growth trees. It's basically a snapshot of what the world looked like before we rolled heavy onto the scene.

The U.S. Forest Service gave the green light for the sale after approval from Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack who stated in May that he would be the final gatekeeper on all decisions to sell timber from roadless ares of the national forests.

This first sale will come after seven miles of roads are built for the 381-acre clear-cut. This makes Hulk mad. Vilsack said that the main reason he approved the sale was to provide jobs to the area. Here's a radical idea -- those loggers should get new jobs not involving cutting down old-growth trees.

Jobs should not trump mountains, nor should they trump the last great stand of old-growth temperate rain forest left in this great nation of ours. Instead of spending the millions of dollars the federal government intends to pour into road construction to clear cut the area, how about giving the loggers job buyouts so they can find a new career with some scratch in their pockets?

<snip>

Read more: http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/blogs/obama-administration-green-lights-logging-in-tongass

---

Another steaming pile of environmental "fail" from the "Change" administration...

[joeybee12]

1. I am so pissed at this!

God, of all the crappy things this administration has done thus far, I think their lack of stewardship on the environment trumps them all. Wolves, polar bears, rain forests all get the shaft.

[villager]

6. They're as feckless as the Clintonistas, when it comes to "protecting" wilderness...

and not too damn much different than the "non-changers" they were allegedly replacing...

[Grinchie]

29. I'm glad to see I am not alone in identifying the root enablers.

They have given the GMO industry a green light, have subsidized Monsanto for years with Herbicide Interdiction in Columbia. They are promoting herbicide interdiction in Afghanistan for christ sakes.

They enabled CAFO's and all the horrors that it entails.

There is no change in this administration. If fact's it's much worse considering what we were led to "Believe". The DLC is fully in control, and I'm not going to go along with the Fraud anymore.

Kucinich 2012.

[FlyingSquirrel]

46. Root enablers?

Somehow that just sounds wrong in this context!

:crazy:

[Grinchie]

54. I'm sure you'll get it someday.

[Jackpine Radical]

113. I'm sure you'll get it someday, Grinchie.

Hint: Does clear cutting enable roots?

[Grinchie]

118. It's OK, I already know how educationally challenged some people are.

Hint, Clintonistas Enabled the takeover first or, to clarify it for you, were the "Root" of the problem.

So "Root Enablers". See how the english language works?

I could understand if the person I replied to was confused, but to have two Yokels pop in and try to diminish my statement linking Clinton policies to what we see today, well, then I see nothing more than DLC attack dog performing damage control duty.

Have at it. The more you do it, the more highly visible you become.

[Jackpine Radical]

123. I fully understood your point. I also agree with you on a serious level.

I have always viewed Clinton and the DLC as tools of the Corporate State. If there was ever a hint of actual liberalism in Bill, it was extinguished in the 1994 Gingrich Revolution, AKA Contract with on America.

As to the other matter, the other poster and I were obviously playing with "root."

[Grinchie]

168. My skin is a little thin these days. These are serious times

[FLAprogressive]

182. Obama is just continuing the Clinton tradition of triangulation and "kinder and gentler" republican

policy.

[Jackpine Radical]

237. There are certainly days when it looks that way.

Actually, I guess he's performing about as I thought he might, back in the early days of the campaign when I was backing more progressive candidates.

[DaLittle Kitty]

167. ObamaBS ObamaBS ObamaBS...Vilsack Is a POS! HOW Will We EVER Win?

:think:

[natrat]

170. it is worse-clinton banned the road building obama blows appalachian mountain tops

[mod mom]

236. Clinton did more harm by allowing this Toxic Waste Incinerator on the Ohio River

Waste Technologies Industry, Inc. (WTI)


WTI has also gained significant political support, as one of the original partners in the corporation was Jackson Stephens. Stephens, an Arkansas investor, was known as a significant contributor to Reagan, Bush, and Clinton campaigns.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

The EPA has been accused of having bias in favor of WTI and carrying out decision-making activities without required public participation. The agency also violated rules established in RCRA during the WTI permit application process. EPA admitted such wrong-doing at a hearing before the House Judiciary Committee's subcommitteeon Administrative Law and Government Relations, as well as the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.

http://www.umich.edu/~snre492/mcormick.html#Key%20Actors



How The Clintons SOLD OUT OHIO (& everyone down river from the Ohio River site): New Developments-Anthrax, Radioactive Waste, & Post Katrina Waste @ The East Liverpool Incinerator

FIRST, HERE IS THE WELL RESEARCHED KOS PIECE:

Ask Hillary About This Tonight. I Dare You.
by Zwoof

Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:40:46 AM PST

-snip

While I was writing the original piece on the history of this foul project, a new ruling from the Ohio EPA allowed this incinerator, located 1,100 feet from an elementary school, to accept even more hazardous waste (anthrax, radioactive waste, infectious medical waste and mixed hazardous waste from Hurricane Katrina) than the original permit that was shrouded in corruption and approved by the Clinton Administration

Clinton and Al Gore promised the residents of East Liverpool, Ohio that they would not allow this incinerator originally approved by Bush '41 to operate. However, a Clinton EPA appointee, recommended by his classmate Hillary Clinton, approved the permit.

This is a tangled tale of corporatism, broken promises and an environmental disaster waiting to happen.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/31/21045/9822/688/446786


NEW RULING:

Ohio EPA Approves Permit Modification
For East Liverpool Incinerator
Ohio EPA has given final approval for Von Roll America, Inc., to receive, manage and incinerate waste not previously taken at its hazardous waste incinerator located at 1250 St. George Street in East Liverpool.

The permit modification allows the facility to receive and manage mixed infectious and hazardous waste. Typical wastes could include vaccines containing mercury; sharps containing chemotherapy drugs; growth plates and Petri dishes containing hazardous components; and tissue and organs from small lab animals preserved in ethanol or formaldehyde.

Ohio law requires that any infectious waste that also is hazardous waste be managed as hazardous waste. While the permit modification allows Von Roll to accept mixed infectious and hazardous waste, the facility will continue to be prohibited from accepting and treating waste that is only infectious.

On February 21, 2007, Ohio EPA held a public meeting in East Liverpool to discuss the draft permit modification. Comments presented at that meeting and during the public comment period were considered prior to final approval. Ohio EPA's written response to public comments is available online at:

www.epa.state.oh.us/dhwm/von_roll_america_inc.html.


The incinerator failed its March 1993 test burn.<6> Among other shortcomings, its efficiency rating for burning mercury was only 7 percent, as opposed to the required 99.99 percent.

An April 1993 inspection of the facility revealed numerous violations. For example, employees had failed to store some of the hazardous waste in closed containers and were not monitoring the underlying soil conditions, although cracks had already appeared in the incinerator's foundations.

In late June, after a three-year investigation, the Ohio attorney general issued a heavily censored report concluding that, yes, because of all the ownership changes, under state law the incinerator permit was invalid after all. Nonetheless, on August 24, the U.S. EPA ruled that although Von Roll wrongfully failed to register the 1989 ownership change, this did not invalidate the incinerator's operating permit. The EPA just fined Von Roll $64,900 for failing to modify the permit.

On July 28, an EPA whistle-blower charged two senior EPA administrators with fraud for allowing the incinerator to operate despite the decision of the Ohio attorney general. In a memo to U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, Hugh Kaufman, whose job is to act as an internal watchdog at the EPA, claimed that Deputy Administrator Robert Sussman and Region 5 Director Valdus Adamkus modified the incinerator's permit to grant it "temporary authorization" to operate, even though they knew the permit was legally invalid. He called for a criminal investigation into Sussman, Adamkus, and the "business entities" running the incinerator. (The federal Justice Department has had no comment on Kaufman's charges.)<7>

-snip

http://www.ohiocitizen.org/campaigns/wti/motherjones.html



Who is the octopussy that might be lurking in the Ohio River Valley? Perhaps we should start by asking shy Arkansas billionaire Jackson T. Stephens. After all, Stephens introduced BCCI from Pakistan to the United States and the WTI waste incinerator to East Liverpool, Ohio. Stephens would be a good sketch artist because he's seen some monstrous scandals in his day. Stephens' family firm is the largest privately owned investment bank outside Wall Street. In September 1977, President Jimmy Carter's Budget Director Burt Lance was forced to resign amid allegations about his bank dealings with Stephens (Stephens and Carter were classmates at the Naval Academy). In 1978, Stephens, Lance and BCCI were charged with violating U.S. security laws. The charges were dropped after the defendants promised not to violate security laws in the future, even though they admitted no guilt.

The New York Post reported in February 1992 that it was Stephens who enabled BCCI to gain a foothold in the U.S. and helped the fraud-plagued bank secretly acquire U.S. banks. In Peter Truell and Larry Gurwin's book, False Profits, perhaps the best account of the BCCI scandal, the authors outlined how opium revenue from Afghanistan Mujahedin fighting the Soviets ended up in the accounts of BCCI, founded by Agha Hasan Abedi. The Post reported that Stephens allegedly introduced Abedi to Lance shortly after Lance resigned.

In 1991, Lance testified that he urged Abedi to acquire a Washington bank holding company, but he denied any knowledge of BCCI's subsequent secret ownership of First American Bankshares. The Post reported that Securities and Exchange Commission documents from 1977 substantiate that the idea originated with Stephens.

During Bill Clinton's 1992 presidential run, Stephens and his son Warren boasted of raising more than $100,000 for the campaign. The Stephens family also owned a 38 percent share in Worthen National Bank that extended a crucial $2 million line of credit to Clinton in January 1992.

-snip

http://www.ohiocitizen.org/campaigns/wti/bob.html




Washington, D.C. - The League of Conservation Voters (LCV), the self-described political arm of the environmental movement, has given President Clinton a middling grade of "C-plus" overall for "not working up to potential" during his first year in office.

In particular, the League criticized the Clinton Administration for failing to halt Waste Technologies Industries' controversial hazardous waste incinerator in East Liverpool, Ohio.

-snip

http://wasteage.com/mag/waste_fewer_onsite_hazwaste/


I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT WHAT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION HAS ALLOWED IS BY ANY MEANS OK! BUT CONTAMINATING A MAJOR WATER SOURCE, LAND ( 1100 feet from an elementary school) AND AIR IS FAR WORSE!

[George II]

261. What is your definitin of "protecting" wilderness? Did you bother to read the article?

[George II]

341. Obviously you're not a fan of Democrats.....

....or you just jump to conclusions spoon fed to you. Read the article, research the situation. Unless you really hate Democrats you might change your opinion.

PS - before this OP, had you even heard of "Tongass"?

[lindisfarne]

11. Call and email the White House 202-456-1111 Loggers need to be retrained, not cut down trees.

Other source of information:

http://juneauempire.com/stories/071509/loc_463956344.shtml
Pacific Log and Lumber, the Ketchikan mill, won the contract to clear-cut 4.4 million board-feet of timber - a relatively small sale - with the option of cutting another 2.4 million board-feet if it's economical. The Ketchikan-area sale is on Revillagigedo Island in an area that borders Misty Fjords National Monument.

Tongass environmental activists had been hoping Vilsack's announcement would translate to a temporary moratorium on timber road-building in roadless areas, including Orion North and three other timber sales on the Tongass. President Obama supported the roadless rule in his campaign.

Contractors have already built about a mile of the 6.9 miles that are to be built for the sale. Another 1.9 miles of old roads will be rebuilt for the 381-acre clear-cut, according to Tongass spokeswoman Erin Uloth.

Despite Waldo's hope, a spokesman higher up the chain with the U.S. Department of Agriculture in Washington, D.C., said the road-building in progress wasn't why Vilsack approved the sale. Rather, the secretary recognized how much people in the area needed the jobs and the economic boost.
...
"Just building the road will cost four times as much revenue as the Forest Service is going to get from the timber sale," said Waldo of Earthjustice.

[anonymous171]

276. Yeah, who needs wood anyways? nt

[roguevalley]

32. fuck them for this. fuck them.

[jhrobbins]

87. Have we made an ENORMOUS mistake?

[FLAprogressive]

104. It all started with Rick Warren.....

[DaLittle Kitty]

169. We Fought Tooth And Nail Against Bush To Prevent This and POS Vilsack DLCRepublicrat

Goes and GIVES AWAY THE FARM! Fuck 'em!

[FLAprogressive]

179. Instead of change we got "kinder and gentler" Bush polices.

[George II]

342. Rick Warren wants to sell the Tongass Wilderness to the logging companies???????

:wtf: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[sandyj999]

109. I'm Thinking We Did. : (

[FLAprogressive]

183. punked again

[George II]

We certainly did - we should have elected McCain Palin!! (chortle, grow up folks!)

[natrat]

173. grow up- what does that mean ? just accept an endless string of campaign lies

if that's what you mean by growing up, no thanks

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

212. Now because progressives are against Bush/OBAMA logging we're "freepers" . .???

Get a grip and try to face reality --

[George II]

259. No, but the sale is for 381 acres in a forest of 17,000,000 acres!!! This is a monumental...

...overreaction.

The sale is a mere .002% (that's one in FIFTY THOUSAND!) and you people use this to say that Obama's a huge failure. I doubt many, if any, of those with the knee-jerk reaction just frothing at the mouth with the prospect of something to criticize Obama have even read the article.

[villager]

271. you really don't get the impact of roadbuilding into pristine wilderness areas, do you?

n/t

[Robb]

272. Not a Wilderness area. Not even close.

Read the Act.

[villager]

275. The Tongass!?

Jesus Christ.

Thanks for checking in...

[Robb]

277. Half of this NF is Wilderness.

This logging is not planned to take place in the Wildereness area. Words mean things.

[villager]

289. I'm glad you believe all the words coming from Washington!

And I'm glad in your world, roads in or near wilderness areas don't ever lead to exacerbated destruction, erosion, poaching, etc.

If only that were the case here!

[jhrobbins]

291. And what is the reason for building a road into a protected wilderness area anyway.

Obviously roads mean cars and cars going into a wilderness area mean something. I'm not saying I know - it just is common sense that you are not going to build a road to have it sit there.

[villager]

294. huh?

You've just made the case the rest of us are making -- the Tongass doesn't need roads!

And the Obama administration is wrong to backtrack on clearcutting, wipe out a chunk of forest, and put one there...

[jhrobbins]

338. I was agreeing with the consensus-I should have made it clearer for you

[Robb]

292. Hardly.

I just wish folks, like you, would choose their words more carefully. And, for that matter, choose the words they want to put in others' mouths more carefully...





...Just curious, I couldn't leave it alone: in your world, is it illegal to build roads near Wilderness areas?

"But it's bad!"

Duh. So support well-crafted legislation that creates buffer zones. But don't complain because the real world doesn't fit your dreams. Fix it.

[villager]

295. Are you always this snide when it comes to wilderness destruction?

for some of us, it actually represents a loss....

For you, it's just an online jousting match...

[Robb]

299. Right. Try attacking the messenger. That might work.

I've been intimately involved in the roadless initiative for years. To the point of working with legislators, my own time, for nothing. So, no, it's not just an online jousting match.

And, I should point out, I got my ass handed to me because, if I were to find it a nutshell, we tried to create "roadless" areas where there were roads already -- just like what happened here. And thanks to people, frankly, like you, we did it over and over again. And it's fucking difficult to argue an area is pristine just because we say it is, when someone can point at the road and look at you like you're an idiot.

So I know this debate. And I'm here to tell you NOTHING does the cause of actual preservation more damage than knee-jerk, uninformed teeth-gnashing like I see here.

381 acres. Sucks. But fine. Meanwhile, Salazar's put new laws on the books protecting millions of acres (that's six zeroes) of honest-to-god old-growth forest. Biggest thing to happen since, well, the freaking Wilderness Act itself.

But that thread sinks like a stone, and DUers pile on wailing about Obama here. For 381 acres and six miles of road.

If you can't figure out the difference, I can't help you. And I sure as hell won't let you off the hook for it.

[villager]

300. We can still applaud saved forest in Oregon, and be appalled at roads in the Tongass.

me? I've actually been arrested in civil disobedience over wilderness issues, so I guess I take it pretty seriously. And I'm glad for the work you've done, as well.

But once you get that *road* in there -- never mind the immorality of clearcutting old growth (which is to say, original, primeval growth, which we therefore don't get back) -- the great "slippery slope" of habitat destruction begins.

And it shouldn't be begining in the Tongass. Especially with so much "change" being promised.

[Robb]

302. I can appreciate that.

But again, it's not *beginning* in the Tongass. There are between 4,000-5,000 miles of existing roads in the Tongass already, depending upon whose map you use.

And I agree, in fact I've said elsewhere, the slippery slope argument is the most valid one I've seen mentioned. But it's a tough nut to make for Tongass, especially the non-Wilderness parts of Tongass.

I applaud your civil disobedience, and throw a smiley your way for it: :patriot:

I also agree we can be appalled here. I just wish I'd hear a little applause, too, because Salazar (of all people, believe me I'm not a big fan) did some great work over there that will affect our children.

[tomg]

319. To Robb and To Villager Both

Thanks for a sharp, respectful and very illuminating discussion. You both taught me a lot. And thanks for both of your work.

[George II]

328. You said it much better that I've tried to say it here for quite some time...

Another way of making your point:

The Obama administration wants to protect millions of acres of wilderness. In order to get the support of those who are on they fence oppose it, he gives up a few acres.

So what pops up on DU "Greatest Threads"?

"Obama breaks another campaign promise, caves the DLC and corporate interests, opens forests to development and clear cutting"!!!!

Sadly, and frustratingly, people here scour the internet and news releases for headlines (HEADLINES, not even content in many cases) they can use to "prove" to themselves that Obama is not doing a good job and is breaking their self-created "promises".

[George II]

326. You're asking for a lot around here....

....read the act? I doubt many of the Obama bashers here even bothered to read the article!

[FSogol]

283. +1 n/t

[defendandprotect]

322. Do me a favor stay away from Central Park and every national park . . .

[George II]

329. Did you see Central Park 30-40 years ago????

Before the city decided to clean it up, remove some trees, weed, prune, clear growth, "DEVELOP" areas of Central Park, it was a wasteland that hardly anyone in the city ever used. Then in the late '60s - early '70s all of those things happened, and now it's a place to be proud of. But, that didn't happen without removing overgrown "wilderness", a few trees, shrubs, and wildlife.

Now there's a beautiful zoo with natural exhibits instead of half-dead animals, there's a huge bird sanctuary in the southern end - the trees, shrubs, and wildlife are flourishing more than ever and people are now going to Central Park to enjoy it.

This never would be the case if there wasn't some removal of trees and growth. And from this example, parks throughout the city underwent a similar resurrection - including the Bronx Zoo, the Botanical Gardens (Bronx and Queens) and many other parks.

[George II]

260. Did you read the article in question?

They are selling 381 of 17 MILLION acres - two thousandTHs of one percent!! That warrants this venom toward Obama and calls for the criticism of him and "an endless string of campaign lies"? When did Obama say he would NOT sell any acreage in any US forests, much less this one? What was his FORMAL position on forests such as these?

I doubt that you even know.

[DaLittle Kitty]

190. DLC Looking For Timber Company Checks!

Same Ole Shit Different Industry!

[George II]

194. We have a winner!!!!!!

For being the first to drag the DLC into this discussion, you win a 1 year paid subscription to the Drudge report, Limbaugh Letter, and unlimited access to Free Republic.

Congratulations.

Now back to DEMOCRATIC Underground!

[Moochy]

195. Sequels suck

[Le Taz Hot]

234. Uh, Sparky,

In case you haven't read the rules for awhile:

"Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, ..."

Last I heard, protecting the environment is one of those progressive ideals.

I have to say, you little onesie thinkers were always amusing to watch.

[defendandprotect]

214. DLC poisons everything it touches . . .

who would have thought that Obama was going to elope with the DLC into the White House???

[Webster Green]

202. I am grown up, and this sucks!

Clear-cutting is just wrong. There is no good reason to harvest this way. It destroys habitat.

BTW, you sound like a real fucking dick-head. Totally oblivious to the ramifications of this horrible policy.

You fucking grow up, asshole! :wtf:

[George II]

340. Really nice.......

....I just wonder if you took the time to read the article and other information sources linked in the article?

Here is what Buck Lindekugel, a staff attorney for the Southeast Alaska Conservation Council, said about a court decision a few years ago allowing LIMITED timber sale from the Tongass Wilderness:

"This court decision gives the Forest Service the opportunity to design a timber sale program that truly respects multiple use on the Tongass by safeguarding those lands important for community use, recreation, fishing, hunting, and tourism from road building and logging. These lands include the Cleveland Peninsula and Gravina Island near Ketchikan, Port Houghton and Farragut Bay near Petersburg, East Kuiu and Three Mile Arm near Kake, Tenakee Inlet, and Uskh Bay, Poison Cove, and Deep Bay near Sitka,"

A little research might have avoided all this whining and gnashing of teeth that is going on in this discussion!

[defendandprotect]

210. Who here would have voted for McCain . . . are you nuts?

What people are pointing out -- and what you don't seem to want to notice --

is that corporations control both parties - and the poisonous DLC is in the White House!


Nor can we keep casting our votes and money in the same way and expect different results --

We need a Plan B --

and that doesn't mean moving to simply another corporate controlled political party!

Wake up!

[Grinchie]

225. If all three lead to the same Policy, then whats the difference?

It just comes down to a popularity contest, and substance be damned.

They are all tainted in my book, but Obama presented the least insane rhetoric, unfortunately, his actions do mesh with that image. So in reality, we were directed into a no other choice campaign.

[George II]

334. What is "Plan B"?

[George II]

162. Specifically? Why? Alternative?

[natrat]

331. Obama Approves Logging Contract For Largest US Rain Forest (VIDEO)

By Dorsey Shaw

The Obama administration has approved the sale of timber in the roadless area of the Tongass National Forest. Tongass is a 17 million acre temperate rain forest in southeast Alaska. The national forest is home to both endangered species and native Alaskan tribes and is the largest temperate rain forest in the United States.

In this video, produced by savebiogems.org, you can see both the natural beauty of the landscape and wildlife In the Tongass forest, along with the destruction that logging has caused.


http://airamerica.com/blog/2009/jul/16/obama-approves-logging-contract-largest-us-rain-forrest-video


i am now evolving toward complete hatred of these whore people

[Why Syzygy]

2. Where's the commitment to climate warming?

:shrug: New energy?

[glitch]

28. Investment in new nuclear power plants.

Wish I was kidding. :grr:

[caseymoz]

61. Probably getting jobs now is trumping other considerations.

:argh:

[Why Syzygy]

84. Bloody ironic. No planet, who needs a job? nt

[caseymoz]

270. We're not dwindled down to "no planet" yet. nt

[humbled_opinion]

145. That is a rediculous assesment

Over a 50-year lifetime, a tree generates $31,250 worth of oxygen, provides $62,000 worth of air pollution control, recycles $37,500 worth of water, and controls $31,250 worth of soil erosion. How many trees lets assume 1000 trees per acre

Do the math Obama is authorizing the waste of roughly $1,231,200,000 per year with this idiocy there is no excuse for this and the jobs just don't equal the cost.

[caseymoz]

158. I find it reckless, too. I was only guessing at his possible motive.

I did not say I found it a good thing, I said maybe that's what he was thinking.

I've been thinking further. It might be a deal he had to strike with a Senator for that state. You could check and see if that follows. Look at where the state's Senators stand on health care. See if one of them is a "blue dog" Democrat or a Republican. That might give some indication of what's going on.

The more I think about this the more likely it seems. Obama needs every vote in the Senate he can get. What those senators are going to want right now are jobs, jobs and jobs.

I am just a bit skeptical about your figures, but that is beside the point.

[grahamhgreen]

203. A deal for what - a half-measure health care plan to save the insurance giants?!!!

[caseymoz]

267. If we end up with that. Hopefully Obama bargained hard.

A public option isn't enough.

[Jackpine Radical]

116. Whaddya mean?

Apparently they ARE committed to climate warming.
:banghead:

[sellitman]

3. Not the change I signed up for.

:puke:

[villager]

5. Not what any of us signed up for. As usual.

n/t

[Why Syzygy]

85. Maybe we should start drafting Dean NOW. nt

[GinaMaria]

233. for a new third party?

with Dean leading the way.... I'm in. I've had enough.

[Why Syzygy]

268. Futurist,

Gerald Celente has said that a third party in 2012 will be UNBEATABLE.
We The People have fricking HAD IT!


http://www.trendsresearch.com/index.htm

[Freddie Stubbs]

248. Did the President promise to not allow any new logging?

:shrug:

[Why Syzygy]

266. Har Har Har!

:rofl: ROFL! NO! He said, let's go tear up the planet some more just like the BUSHIES DID!

:WHOOHOO:

:eyes:

[Algorem]

316. that would just be "rhetoric",anyway.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

4. Shit.

:grr:

[DebbieCDC]

7. More of that worthless change again

[galileoreloaded]

8. Quit complaining and tow the line already.....

:sarcasm:

Edit SP

[nosmokes]

9. Obama hasta repay his corporate masters

Get used to it

[KamaAina]

10. And Caribou Barbie only has a couple of weeks left to stick up for the poor defenseless forest!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[WriteDown]

12. Asian change. nt

[imdjh]

13. The equivalent of clearing less than a square foot in an acre.

I'm not saying that I am for this, it's hard to imagine that this wood is somehow of more use than farmed pine, but for proportion, this clear cut is less than a square foot in an acre.

[brendan120678]

18. Exactly....

381 acres out of 17 million??

That's like .00224% of the entire forest.

[Jakes Progress]

62. Yeah, just some of them.

It's like protesting the war. We only got a couple of thousand Americans killed. It's not like the war is going to depopulate the country or anything. And think of all the jobs it creates.


(Now where did I put my stash of sarcasm thingies?)

[George II]

155. I wouldn't equate a couple of thousand Americans (more like 4000+!) with some trees, Rummy!

[Arctic Dave]

72. See my post #71. Thanks n/t

[Grinchie]

31. Yeah, it's inconsequential, move along, nothing to be concerned about

Obviously the Death of a thousand cuts has no meaning to you.

One person has the ability to transform hundreds of acres over time, just by taking the time to pull a weed here and that at his leisure, and you call this "Insignificant"

The stupidity of Americans in regard to the massive losses occurring currently is mind boggling.

Taught all they are allowed to know by Corporate funded media, trained to look at a tiny statistic and ignore all the rest. We are truly doomed if people can only think in this life destructive fashion.

[Arctic Dave]

71. This time its less then a sq ft an acre. This is not the first time its been logged.

It will take hundreds of years to regrow the old forest douglas firs. These things are huge. It equal to clear cutting the redwood forest of California.

[PufPuf23]

90. Vilsack sucks. So do many many Obama appointees and retainees

and I keep my powder dry; most so on issues I know the best: environmental, economic, and Native American.

Plus out military empire marches on but with a smile. I am taken aback in many directions.

I do want to make a correction; the forests on the Tongass are mostly Sitka spruce, western hemlock, and Alaska yellow cedar. There is no Douglas-fir. The forests are grand but the trees are no where near as large as coast redwood. I saw earlier today a video of logging in SE Alaska that showed some atrocious road building in a large clearcut; this was not National Forest land but Native American corporation land carved from the Tongass NF and given back to the Native peoples some years ago.

[Arctic Dave]

97. Correct on the trees, I always get them mixed up.

After living in the area for two and half years you would think one day I would remember. Kudos to you.

[truedelphi]

251. I hear you. n/t

[villager]

79. yes, but ecologically, the effects are much broader -- especially with the road building

(considering the range of disruptions just from that -- and the other abuses the road will enable), the run-off, overall damage to the watershed, etc...

In other words, there is disproportionate damage at a rate much greater than than each mere square foot...

And of course, it sets a precedence, as well...

[blackdot]

88. The problem is, it won't stop there.

An acre here. An acre there.
One day there will be no acres left.

[garybeck]

223. Uh, you forgot about the 7-MILE LONG ROAD they're putting in to cut it!!

it's not like they're just flying in and taking out the trees.

[Robb]

242. Six, actually.

A mile of it was built years ago. And they're rehabbing several other miles of existing roads.

...Wait, there's roads in "roadless" areas???

The roadless initiative was flawed, if for no other reason than this. We should've re-tooled the Wilderness Act. Instead we look silly, and lose land. :(

[imdjh]

255. Does anyone know what's so special about this parcel?

It seems odd to log on such a specific parcel in such a large resource. Wouldn't working the edges and thinning make more sense?

[Kermitt Gribble]

235. Nice corporatist spin

:puke:

[girl gone mad]

298. The first cut is the deepest.

The removal of these trees will have a wide ranging impact. The area that is destroyed will not recover in our lifetime.

This is how industry gets their foot in the door. Once they start cutting down trees, it becomes much harder to say no to them in the future. That's a pattern that has been repeated time and again, which is why they always start with a small number and use the same argument you are using.

[imdjh]

321. Not that anyone is proposing this...

But the old growth forests of the Eastern Seaboard were virtually clear cut by about 1900. It took a lot of wood to build and rebuild this country.

[niyad]

14. and still another disappointment from this admin

[Robb]

15. Sounds bad, but not as bad as things could be I guess.

It's a 17 million acre forest, but only 10 million acres are "roadless" -- and they haven't been designated roadless since 2001, thanks to W.

So in 10 million acres the mill gets 4.4 million board-feet of timber and they'll make 6 miles of road to do it (the first mile is already finished). And judging from this map it's not one big 381-acre chunk, and it's not the first logging in the area in general:


USFS offered the parcel in 1999. A Ketchikan logging company gets to employ some people for a month or so ten years later. It's a bad call, but it's not the end of the world, and it's nothing like we have seen in the last eight years.

[WriteDown]

17. Sounds like you're using the ANWR argument. nt

[Robb]

22. Not quite

...As we're not talking about a Wilderness area. 4.5 million acres in Tongass are Wilderness, and we aren't talking about logging there.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

16. I am sickened by this.

[emilyg]

86. +1

[Captain Lance Bass]

19. Having lived thru 5 major fires....

due to over-growth and drought, i don't think its a bad idea to "thin the herd" so to speak.

I have personally seen a 5 mile wide fire crest a mountain and roll into a community and take out 400 homes.

City folk may not agree...but if they have been thru what i have they would see things differently.

Also


"The 17-million acre forest is the largest stand of continuous temperate rain forest in the U.S. and contains a lot of old-growth trees"



"Tom Vilsack gave his personal approval for a 381-acre clear-cut in America's largest stand of temperate rain forest"


Do the math...no biggie

JMHO

[Hell Hath No Fury]

21. Clear cutting is NOT "thinning" ---

Clear cutting is obscene -- there will be a 381 acrea bald spot in the Tongass. :mad:

We have done thinning in Eldorado here in CA and taken out a lot of diseased/dying trees -- I can get behind that. Clear cutting I cannot.

On edit: I say this as someone who went through the Angora fire in Lake Tahoe and saw the fire stopped two blocks from my mother's house. When you live in a forested area, you accept that as one of the dangers that comes with the territory, just as I accept that I will have earthquakes to contend with living in San Francisco.

[Abq_Sarah]

25. And eventually

Those bald areas will regrow.

Out with the old, in with the new.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

30. And in the meantime...

an entire ecosystem will be destroyed. This is what we are talking about:

http://www.nrdc.org/land/forests/fcut.asp

"Clearcutting means the felling and removal of all trees from a given tract of forest. One forestry expert refers to the practice as "an ecological trauma that has no precedent in nature except for a major volcanic eruption." Clearcutting can destroy an area's ecological integrity in a number of ways..."










Real pretty, huh? I hope you enjoy the view, because that is what it will look like for many, MANY decades to come.

[cui bono]

126. Too bad we didn't get that saying after the elections.

"Out with the old, in with the new."

All we got is same old, same old. Blech.

:mad:

[tekisui]

139. Jeebus, it's not corn.

It isn't a crop that just bonces back up. It is an ecosystem. Get a clue.

[Abq_Sarah]

206. Have you ever lived in an area

Subject to forest fires? I live within miles of a national forest that has suffered fire damage in the last decade. Believe me, it does bounce back.

The proposed logging site is 381 acres out of 17 million. I own 100 acres of land and in reality, it's not as much as it sounds. 381 acres is approx. 1/2 a section of land.

[Grinchie]

226. So, you gonna bulldoze your acreage flat and sell the forest?

I suppose 100 acres is not that big, as long as you drive your quadrunner all over, and don't do any walking.

But is is a pretty large piece, the equivalent of 4 twin towers lying on their side just about.

So what are they going to put in it's place? The new American Embassy for alsaka? Or maybe a shiny new GMO forest, courtesy of Monsanto. Or what say you to a bare patch planted with a monoculture of something, and maintained with herbicides for the next ten years.

[George II]

335. Is "clear cutting" what will happen in those 381 acres? Does anyone know for a fact?

[Grinchie]

27. After all, they need to clear 381 acres for the new GMO species they will plant.

Oh, we need to plant GMO trees because the bugs are killing the tree's due to Global warming... Boo Hoo Hoo.

This Administration is just as slimy as Clinton's was discovered to be years after he left office.

We are so fucked.

[truedelphi]

37. Were you around the week that Obama Adminstration said that the

Chemtrail program would have to be implemented.

Not kidding - this Administration is so popular that it can now let it be known that the giant spray rigs above our heads twenty four seven do exist, and that all is well, as the noxious chemicals will bring about a perfect climate free from The Global Warming Climate Crisis.

We really are screwn.

[Grinchie]

52. I had not heard that announcment, but the Chemtrail issue has a lot of people worried

It is clear that if the Government doesn't see the need to inform the public, that we really have no democracy.

To further secrecy, we now have "Arbitration" which enables legal decisions, fault and liability to be shrouded in secrecy. Public legal action allows review by interested parties, while arbitration is private, and very secret. Monsanto uses this exclusively in it's very heavy handed Seed Patent litigation. The poor farmer is muzzled.

This also happened in the California Energy crisis, and a case that was brought against another company doing the same thing as Enron was arbitrated and hidden from public sight.

If you pay attention like I do, you will notice that nearly every warranty, End User License Agreement or other similar device mandates Arbitration as the only remedy, otherwise you are prohibited from using the product. In many cases, you waive jurisdiction to where their lawyers live. If that's all the way across the county, tough shit.

Considering that the Military is unaudtitable, and is on record as to misplacing 2 trillion dollars, without our Government shutting the whole thing down until they found out, tells us a lot about our so called freedom.

Live nukes flying across the heartland and left hanging on the Bomber without appropriate safeguards.. heh, no problem, give them more money.

[truedelphi]

59. One of the weird things about the

Chemtrail situation is that some people have informed me that it is being done to weaken if not outright kill all vegetation that is not GMO formulated!

of course, how could a person prove it one way or another?? Unless someone inside the program broke ranks and squealed.

Do you have any links to your information on the Enron lawsuit in California?

Those would be of interest.

Thanks for all your comments.

[Grinchie]

115. It wasn't just Enron. It was quite a few companies

http://feinstein.senate.gov/04Releases/r-dynegysettlement.htm

The web has been swept clean lately about the fact the much of the evidence gathered is now sealed and unavailable to the public or California officials. This tiny piece coming from Feinstein does not do just to the scope, or give the reader a true view of the collusion of Cheney into the California Energy crisis.

The California Energy Crisis hit very close to home for me, as the effects it had on the shaky economy after the DotCom bubble was devastating.

It did open my eye up, and I think it was while sitting in bumper to bumper traffic, on a scorching summer day, heading home because the power had failed at work. Everyone else was doing the same thing at 1:00PM in the afternoon, but the signals were not working, so it was utter gridlock.

I stopped in to an AM/PM store to get a drink, and they had shut the doors, because they were unable to process any transactions because the register didn't work. They wouldn't listen to my suggestion that they use a paper and pen to write receipts, so they just shut down instead.

That was the wake up call for me. It was a baseball bat to the head of the high tech industry, and drove the point home on how it was a key part in the dumbing down of america.

The sad thing is that this trend has accelerated in the last 6 years, and people are even more stupid than before.

I'll look for the original post that implicates Cheney in writing.

ahh found it : http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold03272003.html

Just skimming over the article brings back bad memories of the whole affair, and this article pretty much wraps it up into a neat particle of History. The whole affair is forgotten along with Enrons bankruptcy, and the real Criminals in the White House walk away, scott free.

[sce56]

125. That sound like the guy that tried to order a half dozen McNuggets at the drive thru and they kept

telling him they only come in 6 and 12 servings!

There was no key to push that had a picture saying 1/2 dozen on the register!

[Grinchie]

171. That about nails it.

Mindless drones no different than the Chicken playing tic tac toe for corn in a glass box. At least the Chicken knows that it's next meal depends on it. For the sheeple that can't think, it's a few more MP3s to download via cell phone.

Or maybe a new Munster's ring tone!

[truedelphi]

250. I relate to your tale of grid lock.

I gave up on the notion of our living in a "smart" society with its concept of - "look Ma, we have these computers, so we must be highly intelligent!" - the day of the Morgan Hill Earthquake outside San Jose. April 1984.

Anyway, I spent the earthquake moments directly under my desk, and realized that the desktop was the only thing between me and the 2 ton air conditioner above my head. If the struts on the roof gave way, I was gonna be flattened. A friend of mine screamed at me from under her desk to leave the building. We both did. (Despite it being against company policy.)

And so a whole cluster of women working for Intel stood out in the parking lot. Some of us went briefly back inside to see if the phones were working - they were down.

Then William Shockley, co-inventor of the transistor, came out in the parking lot to yell at us. "The quake is over - you can go back in the building right now."

We all just looked at him like he was a moron, which in terms of earthquake safety, maybe he was. This was in essence his building, and definitely not earthquake proof. And I guess he had never heard of after shocks. Besides all that, our job was to answer the telephone support line - a fat lot of good being at our desks would do with the phones not working!

I left Silicon Valley some two months later.

[Grinchie]

310. We share some history

I used to fly in the Intel company charter from Folsom to Santa Clara for IT projects occasionally.

I loved those flights, and the path they took over the Delta and the ag lands of California in those days. However, I have retired from that realm, and am happy to be a very well trained end user of the fancy adding machine called a general purpose computer.

I'm much happier observing nature on my farm, or wherever I may be at the moment. I left california when Davis fired all the IT contractors in the state so he could "Keep the Lights On", and moved to Hawaii just before the bubble heated up there. We bought a fairly large piece of land that had been fallow for many years. It has a well established secondary forest, and I had to become acquianted with the inescapable duties of a Forester/Arborist. I have tree's on my property that are 12 feet in diameter, and 180 feet tall. They shade almost one acre of land each. They constantly rain down leaves, flowers, branches, seeds, pollen. They are the most productive things I have ever seen, but they are not native, and have almost turned into an invasive species.

However, I have learned to live with them and take advantage of the services they provide. Nameley shade, because the tropics is a very hot place.

Over the years, as the Bubble heated up, many speculators pounced on Hawaii and tried to take advantage. The most common mistake is that they bring a bulldozer in and scrape the property clean. They push all the existing growth (Trash they call it) in a big pile sometimes 30 feet high tot he edge of their property. Then, then usually spend a few thousand dollars on a fancy Wall with a gate, and then realize they are out of money and abandon the project. Menawhile, what little soil that remains sublimates into the air, and all that remains is busted up lava rock, and the few hardy invasive species that can pioneer the hot, dry environment.

The neighbors are then affect by the removal of windbreak, so they get events of high winds where none has been seen before, and their forest is damaged and weakened by windfall.

There was no examination of viability in these speculators plans. A cursory review of the fundamental would clearly point out that the local economy would not sustain such high prices, so the Bubble destroyed a lot of fallow with absolutely no return.

I value my forest, regardless of whether the tree's are regarded as invasive, because I have actually observed and catalogued the products and services these trees provide to me. Sure I cut some down as needed for safety, timber and the sake of overall health, but clearcutting is out of the question.

The University of Hawii naturally has an excellent collection of books on tropical climates, and I ran across one book that found that the Forest canopy modifies the spectrum of light as it bounces off the leaves toward the understory. It found that certian rare understory depend on certain frequencies of light, and will die if they are exposed to full spectrum solar energy. Fascinating.

Aloha!

[snooper2]

249. "kill all vegetation that is not GMO formulated"

That's almost up there with thermite tiles


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[truedelphi]

262. Yeah, weapons grade explosives used by a government

To topple buidlings that kill that government's own civilians is just simply hilarious.

NOT!

[anigbrowl]

106. Oh, do tell us more. This sounds fascinating.

:popcorn:

[truedelphi]

245. Not all that much to tell - Holdren, Obama's Science Adviser

Issued a statement about the possible need to have an aerosol spray program to deflect sunlight.

You can read about it here:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/geobama/ Presdiential Science Adviser Holdren

http://www.truthout.org/041809C

Of course, in Germany, citizens are currently suing their government for allowing such a program. Here there is such a media blackout, that the Sheeple refuse to see that we are already being sprayed.

I live in a valley and if I take the time to watch the skies, I see a plane going maybe one thousand feet above the 2900 foot foothills, then climbing to 30K feet, then going back down to 3900 feet when the pilot reaches the other set of foothills twelve miles away. This is not a commercial jet, as passengers would be ill if that happened to them. Then the plume of chemtrails expands. Then a second plane comes along and repeats the process.

[defendandprotect]

209. HEY . . . I missed that . . . !!!!

Can you push me with a clue on when or where so I might look for the comment/statement?

[truedelphi]

246. April 8th or 9th 2009, Holdren,

Obama's science adviser, issued a statement.

Read about it here:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/geobama/ Presdiential Science Adviser Holdren

http://www.truthout.org/041809C

[defendandprotect]

323. Thank you, truedelphi--!

Obama's science adviser, issued a statement.

Read about it here:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/geobama / Presdiential Science Adviser Holdren

http://www.truthout.org/041809C


PS: Took a quick spin thru this and didn't notice anything specifically re "Chemtrails" . . .

but the overall ideas are insane. As though the prevailing insanity hasn't done enough harm.

And, of course, no mention that we should STOP burning fossil fuels right now!!!

[Grinchie]

33. So have I, so what's your point?

Don't build in a place that is exposed, or cut the forest down so the homes are safe?

Of course, it's too late now, but we will see where the lumber goes, and who profits by it.

[Tim01]

20. Yes we can. nt

[ohio2007]

23. Palin hunts moose in those woods?

Well there ya go

[HCE SuiGeneris]

24. Putting the wrong people in charge! FFS! Geitner, Holder, Vilsack,

Let's just hire Monsanto and be done with it! :puke: :mad:


Department of the Treasury
Secretary Timothy F. Geithner
http://www.treasury.gov

Department of Defense
Secretary Robert M. Gates
http://www.defenselink.mil

Department of Justice
Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr.
http://www.usdoj.gov

Department of the Interior
Secretary Kenneth L. Salazar
http://www.doi.gov

Department of Agriculture
Secretary Thomas J. Vilsack
http://www.usda.gov

Department of Commerce
Secretary Gary F. Locke
http://www.commerce.gov

Department of Labor
Secretary Hilda L. Solis
http://www.dol.gov

Department of Health and Human Services
Secretary Kathleen Sebelius
http://www.hhs.gov

Department of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary Shaun L.S. Donovan
http://www.hud.gov

Department of Transportation
Secretary Raymond L. LaHood
http://www.dot.gov

Department of Energy
Secretary Steven Chu
http://www.energy.gov

Department of Education
Secretary Arne Duncan
http://www.ed.gov

Department of Veterans Affairs
Secretary Eric K. Shinseki
http://www.va.gov

Department of Homeland Security
Secretary Janet A. Napolitano
http://www.dhs.gov


The following positions have the status of Cabinet-rank:

Council of Economic Advisers
Chair Christina Romer
http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/cea/

Environmental Protection Agency
Administrator Lisa P. Jackson
http://www.epa.gov

Office of Management & Budget
Director Peter R. Orszag
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb

United States Trade Representative
Ambassador Ronald Kirk
http://www.ustr.gov

United States Ambassador to the United Nations
Ambassador Susan Rice
http://www.usunnewyork.usmission.gov/

White House Chief of Staff
Rahm I. Emanuel

[Grinchie]

42. Don't forget that Slimy Michael Taylor to the USDA last week.

A known Monsanto operative, back in the USDA after giving us "Substantial Equivalence".

I read a disturbing article here: www.financialsense.com/Market/daily/monday.htm

Alchemists in Action
BY ROB KIRBY | july 13, 2009
On Saturday, July 11, 2009, GATA board member Adrian Douglas published a paper titled, The Alchemists. Disturbingly, what this paper chronicles is how the New York and Tokyo commodity exchanges have been permitting their gold futures contracts to be settled not in real metal but in shares of gold exchange-traded funds (ETFs) in a transaction known as an Exchange of Futures for Physicals (EFP).

Douglas points out that,

“this means is that contracts can essentially be settled without going through the COMEX warehouse. Futures contracts and a physical commodity equivalent can be exchanged outside of the exchange and an EFP form can be filed to the clearing department at the COMEX. What's more, the physical commodity doesn't have to meet the specification of the COMEX Gold Contract of being a 100 troy ounce bar or three 1Kg bars of .995 fineness.”

It used to be that the COMEX standard for good delivery gold was .995 fineness ONLY.

So, why was this standard altered?

Douglas also points out how the COMEX amended its rules back on Feb. 18, 2005;

Exchange Rule 104.36, which governs exchange of futures for physicals ('EFP') transactions on the COMEX Division, refers to a 'physical commodity' as one of the required components of an EFP transaction but also indicates that the physical commodity need only be substantially the economic equivalent of the futures contract being exchanged.

I’d like everyone to stop and think about the verbiage this statement: “substantially the economic equivalent.”

Sounds pretty vague, doesn’t it?

Since the tenet of "Substantial Equivalence" has been so successful in allowing GMO Food product to literally explode and invade our food supply without our knowledge, it appears that they are attempting to use it in the Economic realm as well.

All the mechanisms for covering Corporate ass is in place, while we get to eat diseased chickens raised in filthy, hellish conditions, dine on Pork that has been fed the Chickenshit and feathers from those same chickens, and in many cases, drink water polluted with the same growth hormones and antibiotics that the CAFO's use to keep the animals alive for their short, pathetic little lives. Cloned animals are OK Too! After all, they meet the criteria of "Substanstial Equivalence" too!

Or maybe that new 380 acre tract of newly planted GMO pine tree's, that perhaps cause blinding allergies and lung issues when they all bloom at once, sheedding BT laced pollen across the landscape. It's ok, but they Look "Substantially Equivalent" to a regular tree.

The only way to stop the spread is by Demanding labeling of our GMO Food, and through education, and the ability to ensure that conracts require notification of GMO use in National Forests.

[Grinchie]

26. if (Obama.breakPromise == true)

{
Cynicism.count++;

else
Cynicism.count--;
}

if (Cynicism.count > MAX_BROKEN_PROMISES)
{
Obama.withdrawPublicSupport();
Obama.invokeCorporateGiveaway();
Obama.CharmOffensive.doEventLoop();
}
return;

const int MAX_BROKEN_PROMISES = 5;

[dolphindance]

146. This won't compile.

gcc: Unexpected token "else" on line 4!!!

You forgot the closing brace after the post-increment of Cynicism.count! If you're going to use them (which you didn't have to in this case), then you must balance them!!!

Oh, and Obama has a LOT more goodwill with the public than you give him credit for! :)

[humbled_opinion]

149. that good will....

can erode faster then the hillsides in the Tongas national forest after he cuts these trees down.

Take it from me I am a die hard Obama supporter, campaigned for him, stuck up for him on many issues that some on this forum turned against him on. However, for this I will not forgive.

I wrote him a letter and will give him the opportunity to change his position but I just can't see how you can support legislation to do something about CO2 emission caused global warming and then turn around and authorize the destruction of thousands of trees that are removing that CO2 from the atmosphere...

The hypocrisy is astounding.

[dolphindance]

151. Dude, its waay to soon for this fatalist talk. You'll be miserable for 3.5 more years ...

if you don't learn to chill out and put things in perspective.

This small section of forest is small stuff and sometimes you need to balance environmental concerns with people's livelyhoods.

[humbled_opinion]

156. Your comment is insane.

Are you suggesting that we can have this both ways?

That we can pass legislation to reduce carbon emission through a series of penalties and offsets because our carbon energy usage is causing global warming and at the same time you are defending a decision to remove hundreds of acres of trees that remove thousands of tons of the same co2 from the environment?

I guess to understand you I will reguire some of what you are smoking.

[dolphindance]

160. ...and maybe they've done the math and figured out that these removals

...will have minimal impact in the long run.

Obama is always about the FACTS. There is a deeper rationale behind his decisions more than the cynical "corporate masters" BS the haters like to sling around.

Your faith in him will NOT be in vain. Stick with the guy. I know I am.

[humbled_opinion]

163. The Math...

Over a 50-year lifetime, a tree generates $31,250 worth of oxygen, provides $62,000 worth of air pollution control, recycles $37,500 worth of water, and controls $31,250 worth of soil erosion. How many trees lets assume 1000 trees per acre

Do the math Obama is authorizing the waste of $1,231,200,000 per year with this idiocy there is no excuse for this.


To your further point, no he has not lost me because I am giving him a chance to recind this insanity.....

Hopefully he won't let me down.

[Grinchie]

181. You do that.

[Grinchie]

176. As spoken from a guy that corrected my pseudocode.

Man, you need to get out more often and actually visit a forest. Or maybe you should fire up Google Earth and look at the planet once in a while.

You have the gall to talk about people liveliehoods when most of the IT jobs have been outsourced to India and abroad, and the "New" GM plans to start building cars in Brazil.

The time for misery began 8 years ago. I'm fucking tired of it, and no amount of Stardust or Give him a chance talk is able to stifle the rage of the recent Michael Taylor Appointment to the USDA, and now this.

[natrat]

187. it is insane-the forest service loses money building these roads-it is a giveaway

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zorra]

35. No surprise. Vilsack is the former Chairman of the DLC. Business trumps ethics

in DLC world.

[edc]

36. The Forest Circus

pays to build the roads, then bids out the timber. The cost of the roads is usually greater than the revenue from the cut, especially in the Tongass NF where the logging is outside the lower 48 and is basically an out of sight out of mind subside to the reelection campaigns of the Alaskan congressional delegation.

[sfwriter]

38. What price did we get?

I'll bet it ain't much.

[gordontron]

53. we are building them a road to the area

most likely at taxpayer expense. If we follow in the tradition of "timber" sales in this country we will more or less be giving it away.

[Jakes Progress]

64. The next step

is when they claim. "Look, we've got this expensive road going in there. It would be a shame to waste it, so let's cut more trees."

Evil is evil, and it doesn't change.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

39. Now my freeper brother will bug me about how Obama is no different than Bush.

"Yeah, you wanted change". :(

[natrat]

188. um well.....

[Joey Liberal]

40. I didn't vote for this! nt

[BlueJac]

41. The joke is on us!

Same old shit different boss!!! "Change" and "hope" have a very different meaning to me now!

[gordontron]

43. WTF?

Return to Bush era environmental responsibility. Screw you Vilsack

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

140. I don't believe you.

None of what you said. And, no repuke will win in 2012.

[DaLittle Kitty]

191. 6Months In And It's All Fucked Up! 2012 Is Going To Be Something!

:think:

[tranche]

204. Get your idiot here.

[mvd]

45. First of all, we need to preserve the natural beauty we have left, and..

also, we don't know logging will stop here once started. I disagreed with the Vilsack pick as global warming is a big concern.

[JayMusgrove]

47. Why on Earth "clear cut" this area? Why not selectively cut?

I don't get the logic, I don't get it.

Someone please tell me there is a reason for this, other than $.

[Jakes Progress]

67. Clear cutting is cheaper

for the logging companies. Plus it takes fewer workers and takes less time.

Sort of kills the argument that the reason was to create jobs.

[JayMusgrove]

95. Yes, I realize that... but but but

why not selectively cut 1200 acres?

Save the land, the ecology, the forest growth.... I just don't get it...

$ is the ONLY REASON???? Makes no sense for or to the man I voted for.

I'm having a hard time Obama people could approve of this for this simple reason... I want real answers from Obama and LaHood.

[PufPuf23]

103. Caveat:: Vilsack sucks and I do not approve of this action

Selective cuts works better in second growth rather than ancient forests in SE Alaska.

The ancient forests have much defect and disease and have gradually shifted over time to favor western hemlock over Sitka spruce in stand composition for a variety if ecological reasons. The old western hemlock is high in defect and much is only useful for pulp.

Selective harvest would tend to leave trees of poorer genotype and phenotype and increase the shift to the lower valued and more disease prone western hemlock. A clearcut will favor regeneration of Sitka spruce that grows faster and is a larger / less disease prone tree species(and will more effectively sequester carbon)as well as being more valuable in wood product markets.

This is the logic and science; there are other policy issues that may well make this a moot point. I tend to be pro-preservation in forests that have experienced little impact by humans.

[katandmoon]

48. The Bushification of the Obama Administration keeps right on truckin'

[winyanstaz]

49. Damn it! This is ridiculous and just wrong!

There are so few old growths left. We should be protecting them! Not wiping the last ones off the face of the planet!...
How can we stop this?

[humbled_opinion]

50. I must say as stongly as I support Our President.. .

I am saddened by this decision. This is reckless, I am writing a letter begging the President to reconsider. I suggest we all do the same.

[mdmc]

55. thanks for writing that letter

:toast:

[TheWatcher]

69. There was a time in this country when that would have made a difference.

That time has long since past.

Do it anyway.

Resistance is IMPORTANT, even if the Mafioso doesn't listen.

[Reform]

51. wow

Even most people who question Global warming dont want to rip down Forests from what i gather.
What the hell is this? Trees are the great equalizer in air pollutants until taken down where they then can pollute, Obama should be announcing he is expanding the damn Forest.
It becomes more clear to me this cap and trade is nothing more than a cash grab for people all ready at the top, i feel the American people have been duped,

[FiveGoodMen]

56. The next time that Dems have a shot at the White House

How do we ensure that someone good will get the nomination?

[anigbrowl]

57. 381 / 17,000,000 = 0.002%. This sounds reasonably sustainable to me..

A more detailed (and neutral) report: http://juneauempire.com/stories/071509/loc_463956344.shtml

[Jakes Progress]

65. And just think how many pom pom sticks

they can make from those useless trees.

[anigbrowl]

75. Well, heaven forfend they might produce something useful with the lumber

I am opposed to mass clear cutting or rampant forest exploitation, but not to the point of feeling we can never cut any trees. This doesn't strike me as the environmental catastrophe that the OP implies. If you cut this area of trees every year it would take 50 years to make a 1% dent in the forest as a whole, and if you replant as you go then 50 years is a pretty long time for trees to grow back. I'd rather carefully manage resources we control than import materials from places with no standards of resource management in place.

[Jakes Progress]

89. You don't understand old growth forests.

And if you think that they are building a road into the middle just for the first go around, you don't understand corporate greed either.

First bad sign. Logging allowed in old growth. You can't grow new old growth. You can't replace that microsystem.

Second bad sign. Clear cutting. No excuse for it other than bigger profit for the corporate logger. They say they are doing it for the jobs. Selective cutting requires more workers and more time at work. This is a farce.

Third bad sign. Allowing it. For eight years the corporations got whatever they wanted. Now we were supposed to get what we wanted. This ain't it. It's the first stroke. Check out the back up on the mountain top removal mining disaster.

As far as importing these materials, the better chance is that we will be cutting our trees ship to Asia where they will make the cardboard boxes that hold the cameras and computers we get from there.

The argument that they just want to cut a little is not a good one. How about if we just let a little e coli into the food distribution system. We eat tons of food. So what if a little tiny percentage has poison. And then there are wars. It is a small war compared to WWII, so what difference?

Nope. Defending this is just defending the wrong thing. If someone else were in charge when this started, it would be universally decried.

[anigbrowl]

100. I understand that there's no convincing you of this.

Most of your analogies don't hold water in my view, but that's OK. We're just not going to agree about this.

[Jakes Progress]

131. Analogies usually don't hold water.

But they sometimes are what we have to try to explain our point. I not about to say that the life of a soldier is the same as the life of a tree, but giving in incrementally is still giving in. Maybe the question should be what do the government and the people of this country get for giving away (at the prices they pay) land that cannot be put back or reclaimed. Do we get iron-clad assurance that they won't ask to cut any more? Do we get other acreage that would make a valuable addition to our country in exchange?

This is not about jobs. This is about corporate wannabes greasing their way into corporate money after time in office.

It's a sell out.

[Robb]

74. I know. People should read it.

But it's much less fun than the other one. :eyes:

Side note: another story that paper is running is of a 160,000-acre wildfire going on there right now. Big for this time of year, small(ish) for Alaska.

And about 400 times bigger than the logging area we're talking about. I know, I know, wildfires are actually good for forests, where clearcutting isn't. At all. But good for perspective IMO.

[PufPuf23]

107. There is a huge scandal in the wildfires and 100s of

millions of dollars paid /wasted to contractors during the GWB administration at the expense of the remaining ancient forests within the National Forests of the western USA.

Not all wildfires are good for forests just as not all clearcuts are "bad".

[Robb]

114. Read the article on this fire.

This is good. 100 years since the last fire, and much beetle kill.

[berni_mccoy]

98. Shhh... logic is bad you know...the radicals are going to get you.

:hide:

[mike_c]

110. then why not cut some of the BILLIONS of acres of second growth...

...that already exists? THAT is what sustainable harvest is all about-- rotating exploitation of mature regenerated stands. Cutting virgin old growth is NOT sustainable-- it will NEVER be virgin old growth again, at least not within the lifetime of our civilization. That's not sustainability. It's pillage for profit.

[PufPuf23]

136. Agree; untouched forests should remain untouched

Billions is an exaggeration for the USA base upon the Forest Survey but the point is well made.

Old natural stands are priceless and a wealth of biological diversity; most that remain are because of difficult terrain or far from any market and we have reached a rational limit to exploitation.

Sadly at times it is pillage for the stupid rather than mundane profit.

[mike_c]

157. yeah, I know....

Billions and billions, just like Carl Sagen, LOL. I'm just SO cheesed off by this decision. There is no good justification for opening even a small bit of the Tongass. The economics certainly are not there-- it will probably cost taxpayers more for access than the operators will make at the mill-- and demand is low, anyway.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[humbled_opinion]

132. Wow.... there you go justifying the unjustifiable....

Basic Biology class should have taught you that it is the TREES that remove co2 from the air so explain to me exactly how killing these trees in any way helps with global climate change?

Over a 50-year lifetime, a tree generates $31,250 worth of oxygen, provides $62,000 worth of air pollution control, recycles $37,500 worth of water, and controls $31,250 worth of soil erosion.

Now how many trees are they cutting down to employe how many people (Lame excuse) at what amount?

Do the math and tell me there is any logic in this at all.

[Mari333]

58. huge fail, there are no excuses. nt

[caseymoz]

60. He has his official "centrist" card now. It's sad.

He has to move to the left.

[alarimer]

63. Fuck this shit.

This Administration is not much better than Bush.

Fuck him and all his corporate cronies.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. I lived through 19 years of bogus arguments for clear-cutting in Oregon

and the jobs disappeared anyway due to automation in the sawmills.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

68. Clear-cutting was bullshit then --

and it is bullshit now.

Same ol' same ol'. :puke:

[Snazzy]

207. I just barely lived through that

The RW irrationality, ignorance, anger and violence was thick.

Bumper sticker of the time: "I eat spotted owls for breakfast."

And then Bush Sr. did his best to sell those trees to China at a net loss. But hell yeah, some people had jobs for a couple of more years, months, whatever.

In Oregon then, and usually since I thought, it was party line for being idiots and destroying what's left (versus having clue, the Democrats). But I moved before Clinton, not really sure exactly what happened then, but did later hike the same forests and they were gone. Usually a buffer zone left, so it looked like great expanses of forest beyond, but hike in 1/2 a mile or less and it was clear cut as far as you could see.

(edit clarity, and edit again to add: spotted owls were the indicator species--the health of the forest in one creature. This small tract sounds similar, an in roads to destruction of what we were to leave alone. I wish I had a great quote handy, like BF on civil rights: "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security"--substitute "nonrenewable natural resources" for "liberty" and "jobs" for "security" and you're there. Hmm, maybe "pristine ancient forest we said we would never touch" instead of "nonrenewable natural resources" come to think of it.)

[Odin2005]

70. I wouldn't be opposed if it was selective cutting, but clear-cutting in not acceptable.

Especially in a National Forest.

[Ignis]

147. Agreed. I'm amazed our Ds didn't put up more of a fight here.

How hard would it be to bear the extra expense of selective cutting, given the irreversible environmental damage done by clear-cutting old growth forests?

:banghead:

[JohnWxy]

73. WTF - and CLEAR-CUTTING! incredible! Suggest people let Obama know how you feel about this- link:

www.whitehouse.gov/contact

This is incredibly disappointing.

[LynneSin]

82. You do know that "Obama" and "Obama Administration" are not the same person

just checking

[Grinchie]

122. Too bad he said "The Buck Stops Here". I guess he meant it

Obama can go fellate Bill Clinton for all I care.

[madrchsod]

76. one square mile of trees

[ladjf]

77. Terrible decision! nt

[hamerfan]

78. Roads is what the US Forest Service

does best!
Sorry to hear about it happening in the Tongass. I used to live in Alaska and that is some sacred ground!
hamerfan

[benld74]

80. NYTimes is only carrying this,,,,

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/17/science/earth/17forest.html?_r=1&hp

[Reterr]

81. Ugh-more bs.eom

[blackdot]

83. Who will be running against Obama cause I think they will be getting my vote.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blackdot]

96. n/t

[FLAprogressive]

102. it's okay, it's a standard rebuttal to anyone who criticizes Obama.

[Grinchie]

124. I'm with you, and Welcome to DU

[tekisui]

142. Mitt Romney.

Knock yourself out if you think he'd be better. I certainly don't.

[Freddie Stubbs]

164. Probably Romney, Palin, or Huckabee

[Name removed]

184. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krabigirl]

228. Yikes,well your vote will go to one of the Christofascists the GOP will nominate.

[snappyturtle]

91. OMG!

I can not believe this! Sickening!

[FLAprogressive]

92. Hey bots: Spin this one, you ruthless fuckers!

[Robb]

117. Bots? Are we back to that? nt

[dolphindance]

143. No spin, but it doesn't bother me either.

People need jobs. You can't go too far in one direction (conversation) at the expense of people's livelyhoods.

Y'all are making a big deal out of nothing.

[twitomy]

94. 380 acres out of 17 million...

Im not too concerned...after all, its a renewable natural resource...cut one down, plant another..AMAZING how it works...

[FLAprogressive]

99. and as I predicted someone would spin this one.

[Tyler Generation]

120. Yeah, because towing the DU outrage line is so much better

Why is it so many people on here seem so shocked if we all don't freak out over every sensationalized headline?

[humbled_opinion]

137. Not Shocked, disappointed.

This is not the Change that I believed Obama would be bringing in fact this is no change at all. We might as well have Repuke screwing this stuff up at least then we wouldn't get the hypocrite lable.

Imagine the hypocrisy charge in the fight against man caused co2 induced climate change, when the President is ordering forests cut down???? The same forests that suck up that bad co2. How could anybody argue both sides of this issue. I was proud of Congress for putting together its first steps to combat global climate change and now this is a slap in the face.

Over a 50-year lifetime, a tree generates $31,250 worth of oxygen, provides $62,000 worth of air pollution control, recycles $37,500 worth of water, and controls $31,250 worth of soil erosion. How many trees lets assume 1000 trees per acre

Do the math Obama is authorizing the waste of $1,231,200,000 per year with this idiocy there is no excuse for this.

I wrote the President and begged him to reconsider. I implore all of you to do the same. Maybe we can stop this nonsense before its too late.

[Window]

144. ...

[twitomy]

180. I just dont think this is a big deal.

Seems to me some people think not one tree should ever be cut down. Sorry, we need timber.
Responsible logging is not a crime IMHO. Back where I am from there were plenty of "older
growth" woodlands. Such a dense canopy that little grew under the trees. After it was logged, all the brush and saplings that came up made a great habitat for wildlife. For example Turkeys galore where there was none. On my Dads place we had old growth trees that were getting killed by lighting one after the other as they were the tallest trees around. Dad figured and I agreed that it was best to harvest before they were all gone. I am now taking pleasure in finding and protecting the replacement saplings coming up, and the smaller trees were left to grow. There is another patch of woodland that we need to thin out. Very tall oaks that are like telephone poles as there is too much competition. Need to thin them out so as to let them "fatten out"..

[Algorem]

186. lotta turkeys running around out there,huh?

[twitomy]

231. Yep...Gobble Gobble ...

with apologies to Jennifer Lopez

[Enthusiast]

221. It is a big deal.

"Let them fatten out." You're a real expert on forestry, you and your dad. :sarcasm:

[twitomy]

232. Wow, that was a great counter-argument...

You convinced me of the errors of my ways..

:sarcasm:

[Freddie Stubbs]

252. If by spin, you mean take a rational, non-hysterical view, then you were correct

[Ignis]

148. You don't understand what "old growth" means, do you? (nt)

[Lorien]

174. How very Republican of you

and of him. 380, then another 380, and meanwhile climate change roars on. Legalize hemp...oh wait, certain lobbysts might get pissed!

[natrat]

177. um.. first of all it is yet another obama lie secondly the forest service loses 3x money on it

so it's just your standard republican giveaway to biz and the taxpayer get's fucked as usual

[TankLV]

101. Obama just RECINDED bush* logging permission for national forests!!!

It was just announced on NPR while I was driving home about 14 minutes ago...

[DesertRat]

133. They may have been referring to the program in Western Oregon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8532002

[Devil_Fish]

105. they could grow 55 acres of Hemp and get the same benefit. hemp grows back in 7 months.

the days of forest logging should have been over long ago. I don't care if it only seems like a drop in a bucket. At the rate rain forest are disappearing and the globe is heating, we need every acre of rain forest.

The excuse that we need the jobs is bull shit. Would we keep a factory that makes horse carriages open just because the need the jobs? or would we re-tool to build cars?

This is stupid. It's worse then blood letting to cure an infection. In this case it is our planet that is dieing.

[rosesaylavee]

108. Do not completely despair...

Logging program in Western Oregon is done: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8532002

[RollWithIt]

111. So wait a sec, we are talking about 381 acres out of 17 million?

Just pointing that out. And after they're done there will still be 16,999,619 acres left?

[humbled_opinion]

150. Another attempt to justify the ignorance...

Over a 50-year lifetime, a tree generates $31,250 worth of oxygen, provides $62,000 worth of air pollution control, recycles $37,500 worth of water, and controls $31,250 worth of soil erosion. How many trees lets assume 1000 trees per acre

Do the math Obama is authorizing the waste of $1,231,200,000 per year with this idiocy there is no excuse for this no matter how small of an area that you portend is involved.

Do you fail to see the hypocrisy in telling Americans that we need to lower co2 emissions as you go and authorize the destruction of the very trees that are removing the co2 from the atmosphere?

Ignorant or idiot?

[RollWithIt]

198. Huh?

You do realize that you can cut a tree down and then plant one in its place?

[Robb]

281. LOL

Most smaller plants have higher photosynthetic rates per acre than a tree. Algae and most grasses, for example.

[Kaleva]

112. I'm fine with this

I live in Upper Michigan where logging is a major industry and clear cutting is the common practice but one would never get the impression that the area is being denuded of forest land.

[Grinchie]

127. Unless you actually walked 150 feet into the forest and into an open area.

Oh yeah, they do that at Disney World too..

[Kaleva]

241. In 2-3 years....

the clear cut area is so thick with young saplings, it's not that easy to walk thru the area. clear cutting sections of woodlands does help many species of wildlife. Deer, for instance, could not survive in thick forests as they'd starve to death. The ample deer population in turn provides a food source for the local wolves.

[Grinchie]

311. In 2 to 3 years you have a monoculture of Identical, cloned fast growing

Herbicide resistant christmas trees. The key word is MONOCULTURE, and the requirement that herbicides are used to get them establised. All precisely planted in neat little rows, and basically a green desert.

I challenge you to go "Recreate" in some of the monocultural deserts that are all over the country. Wear your 3M mask, because the dust will not be too kind to your lungs.

So your argument is "Think of the Deer!" now? Last time I checked, Deer are kind of a problem these days. They are pests and will damage anything they find edible. I had pleanty of open space on my farm, but they always migrated to the row crops and 250 grape vines.

What a ridiculous stramwan you presented.

[Shireling]

119. There should be "hands-off" to clear cutting

old-growth forests. They are sacred, alive with elves and water-spirits. Seriously. Walk in an old-growth forest and there is so much peace.

Why clear cut old-growth forests? Why blow up mountains in Appalachia?

MY HEART ACHES.

[marimour]

129. elves and water spirits?

you lost me there. :think:

[Amos Moses]

134. I know what you mean.

Elves and water spirits in the forest. :eyes:

It's almost as silly as believing there was going to be "Hope" and "Change" in the White House. :crazy:

[crickets]

128. James Watt, is that you?

First mountaintop removal mining and now clear cutting? :wtf:

And what kind of dem unrecs a post about clearcutting in a NATIONAL FOREST?

[Maestro]

130. Well, while it may be a small area, I am not for this.

Clear cut logging will just destroy the area affected push wildlife out of the area and if the logging companies do what they usually they will spill fuel, put down pesticides and in general treat the area like the wasteland it will be become. Is it worth it? No. I want to know who is going to supervise this. Will it be the Interior Dept. Will it make sure more trees are planted or is this just going to be slash and burn?

Welcome to the new area on Tongass in a few years.

[humbled_opinion]

138. Small area yes but the costs are enormous.

Over a 50-year lifetime, a tree generates $31,250 worth of oxygen, provides $62,000 worth of air pollution control, recycles $37,500 worth of water, and controls $31,250 worth of soil erosion.

[Maestro]

141. Great points and the fact that this area is one of the few

pristine areas left in the US makes this sickening.

[Cass]

135. What a horrible decision. Clear-cutting leaves the area in ruins.

This will have a hugely negative impact on wildlife in the area. To top it all off they will clear-cut old growth forest which makes it even worse. This really frosts my ass...wtf are these people thinking.

[dolphindance]

152. Hiding this thread. Too much hysteria over small stuff. (n/t)

[humbled_opinion]

166. So your answer is to

Stick your head in the sand? I thought we were better then the Repukes. If I remember correctly we activate and hold our leaders accountable unlike the idiot zealots on the other side.

[Lorien]

178. "Small stuff" leads to "bigger stuff"...like environmental catastrophes

Old growth forests help to regulate weather patterns. To see how big an effect forest cover has on the environment: http://www.ted.com/talks/willie_smits_restores_a_rainforest.html

[George II]

153. I say IMPEACH.....(WTF?)....you folks here want 110% of your agenda IMMEDIATELY!

[humbled_opinion]

159. This isnt an agenda silly its common sense....

It is a simple matter of LOGIC. Obama cannot logically argue supporting carbon offset legislation and asking the world to sign on as partners in reducing CO2 emission which is killing the planet, and then authorize the destruction of the very trees that are removing thousands of tons of CO2 from the environment.

Come on now you do understand Hypocrisy don't you? You obviously cannot see the forest for the trees or let me rephrase that You cannot see the forest because Obama had it cut down.

[George II]

165. If you got past the rhetoric and negativity and looked at the FACTS....

....you might think differently.

"Thousands of tons of CO2"?? On what do you base that statistic, considering the overall impact of the tree removal.

No doubt you run your computer using a generator powered by a chipmunk on a treadmill, right? We can improve our current situation without overreacting and eliminated ALL non-enviromentally friendly affects.

[Gregorian]

154. I sure wish I could communicate what is on my mind.

I have witnessed first hand the destruction. I have felt it in my soul. I have suffered. First I didn't realize that lumber was actually forest. Not many people do. Not the way that first hand experience does for one. I bought lumber like a good consumer. I built chairs, speakers, remodels. First it was northern California, and then I moved to Oregon, where the clearcutting was IN YOUR FACE. I left an historic piece of property, of unparalleled beauty, because of the logging. I now own a timber ranch. I own one third of that sized property that it proposed to be clear cut.

It's hard to log without clearcutting. Or I should say it's harder. I don't want to log. But I may someday. And if I do it will be by horse, and it will be done in a way that brings the property back to what it was intended to be by nature. Most of the forests on the coasts have been clearcut at one time or another. After the San Francisco earthquake fire, the redwood forests were logged in order to rebuild that city. Now we have many many times the population. And people want lumber. That is the key statement. People want their lumber. This can't be drilled home enough. If it's not lumber it's something else. And Obama may have the ability to curb damage, such as the great decision to repeal the Bush law allowing cutting of the old growth in Western Oregon. But we are the ones demanding the resources. I don't use wood unless I am absolutely forced. I'm building a house right now, and it's devoid of wood. It's all steel. So that means that somewhere there is a mine being cut out of the earth for me. I would rather do that than deplete the earth of oxygen transpiration, and places for animals to live. I've seen hell, and it's a dead forest. Smouldering ashes in dirt, that was once a beautiful ecosystem. Oregon is not a "tree farm", like the dipshit loggers used to tell me. And then again, within a sustainable system, there is nothing wrong with logging. As usual I'm going to steer this conversation away from the subject and toward the cause, not the symptom. Numbers of users. Too many people all demanding resources.

I strongly believe that Obama has things in perspective. But there is only so much we can do to save the planet while giving us what we all want. Six billion people want two by fours. And there aren't enough trees for us all. The solution is simple. But it's not something anyone wants to hear. Stop reproducing. Until that happens, say goodbye to forests, among other things.

[George II]

161. Another Faux-Democratic skewing of reality to be negative toward Obama/REAL Democrats!!!

[WillParkinson]

243. Oooh, I see...

If we don't blindly follow along we are obviously not "REAL" Democrats.

Gotcha. Must have missed the memo.

[George II]

257. Must have...

....you should speak to Karl about that, he doesn't screw up much.

[WillParkinson]

258. Aw, isn't that sweet?

I assume you are trying to say that I work for Mr. Rove now?

Because I disagree with Mr. Obama about a large number of things I must be a Republican?

Follow blindly if you will, I prefer to keep my eyes open and voice my dissent when I believe it is warranted. That is what a true Democrat does.

[Lorien]

172. WTF???!!

OK Obama, you've lost me on this one. I was still "hoping for change", but now....?

[New Dawn]

175. "Change" = clear-cutting rain forests???

Edit to add: Here is a picture of what the DLC wants to cut down:

[Grinchie]

185. This must be the "Go For Broke, We're Screwed Solution"

The amount of backlash from Michael Taylor's appointment to the USDA drove a lot of the concerned base away Because Taylor is Monsanto's main squeeze.

Now that the DLC knows that they lost the base, they will just go ahead with the Clinton presidency without a need to cater to the progressive left.

They have decided to join with the centrists and steamroll ahead, damn the consequences.

[Psephos]

189. For a moment there, I thought that said "Obama" instead of "Bush" administration

Have to get some glasses, I guess.

:eyes:

[RoccoR5955]

192. K & R I thought that they were greenwashing all along,

They talk the talk, but do not walk the walk, on so many levels. I want my change back. This isn't change, it's more of the corporatist crap.

[femrap]

196. K and R

What a fine Tool we have! Want to kill OUR trees. And don't forget the 'Change'.....He 'Changed' his mind on Single Payer.

ITYS. Now do you believe me?

ETA: If Ag Dude wants to provide jobs....why not just have dudes shovel snow w/ spoons???? FDR gave dudes shovels...and someone asked, 'Why not spoons instead of shovels?'

[MessiahRp]

197. If you yell "Change!" in a forest and nobody's there, does it make a sound?

Absolutely sickening.

Rp

[Grinchie]

312. Yes, it's the sound of Chainsaws and Bulldozers

[RollWithIt]

199. I always thought the whole "tree hugger" thing was bullshit, until I read this thread...

I mean seriously, its less than 400 acres on a 17,000,000 acre piece of land. They're replanting what they cut. This is such a ridiculous overdrama.

[Divine Discontent]

211. oh, nice - name calling! you are great! really... feel better? & don't forget about that

insignificant SEVEN MILES of road construction that has to be built in the forest that was unscathed - that won't screw up a thing whatsoever....... SHHHURE!


seriously, am I in a nightmare? We get a Democratic president, he's far from 'progressive', and arguably center/center-right and there are people on here that blast others on here with tree hugger, moron, idiots, crazy, etc for voicing concern about this. Why not just spend money to educate these guys to do something other than this clearcut which carves 7 miles worth of road and thousands of square feet of 'blight' on the land while tearing down these old trees a la 'Lord of the Rings'? But, go ahead and name call as a response. You have the right to an opinion, no matter how wrong, but calling people tree-huggers while saying it's insignificant what will be done, when you don't have the slightest thought about what effect all that machinery and road-building is going to have on the forest is a bit mean spirited. juss sayin...

[natrat]

247. obviously it's not the 400 acres per se, wtf ?

it's the foot in the door
it's another broken promise/lie
it's ripping off the tax payer for private industry giveaway
it's the first clearcut in a roadless area subsidized by us
there is no black or white,it's complete bullshit
hope is bullshit as is the rest of this idiots administration

[RollWithIt]

325. Have to disagree...

This is about small groups of people living in areas out in the middle of nowhere. We are talking about 17,000,000 acres. A little less that 400 acres for a struggling community means a heck of a lot. Plus those trees can be replanted and be right back in 10 years. I guess I just live in southern pine territory where this is commonplace. They get cut, then they grow back up.

And by the way, you're whole "it's" list?

It's math.

[nightrain]

200. more disappointment...

[Divine Discontent]

216. add it to the ever-growing list.. I get corrected by his overboard supporters when I say I am

disappointed and they say he's exactly everything he said he'd be, and they're not upset at all....

I'm thinking, you aren't too liberal then if what he is doing deserves an "A" grade from you.

Glad to see in this thread there are many upset and ready to speak up about these unfortunate decisions.

We must speak out! I will write the WH tomorrow.

[Grinchie]

313. I'm way beyond disappointed, I'm in get the bastards out as soon as we are able camp

The Apoointment of Michael Taylor to the USDA was the last straw.

[Rhiannon12866]

201. Oh, for Christ's sake! This is one of the special areas that environmentalists are trying to protect

I've sent numerous letters, over the years... ;(

[Divine Discontent]

213. yeah. not good! it would come on Obama's watch! sigh.....

[Rhiannon12866]

222. I know! That makes it even more of a shock!

I took part in numerous mailing campaigns during the Bush* years to protect endangered pristine places, but I had hoped that it wouldn't be such a time-sensitive struggle now. I'm very disappointed... :-(

[Divine Discontent]

224. Thank you for doing all that. I hope it won't be for naught. gotta keep fighting 'the man'

those in power seem to fall prey to the same ol tired habits of many politicians - those with billions and power telling the poli that it's best if the poli do as they want, because it's 'best for the country'

[Rhiannon12866]

229. Well, Obama's not clueless like Bush* was. He knows that climate change is real

and that we're in trouble. And one of the first things that Michelle did was to plant that garden for the White House and she's helped children in local schools to plant their own. Also, Obama isn't expecting "the rapture," like Bush* was, knows that there are going to be future generations, including his own kids, and he can hardly be jaded at this point. *sigh* So I'm also puzzled... :shrug: :-(

On edit: Obama also has Ken Salazar as Sec. of Interior, unlike Bush*'s Gale Norton, who believed that "the rapture" was imminent, just as Bush* did, so who cared if we cut down all the trees?! :grr:

[Divine Discontent]

296. yeah, isn't it grand how kooky they were!?

I'm a Christian, but we have no idea how many thousands of years God's return could be, or what form it will truly take, and for them to say it was imminent and to destroy things as if "why should it matter? it's all going to be made good by God again" is so dirty and selfish and against what God teaches about respecting what He has given. I love that Michelle did the garden and thanks for the info about teaching kids to do it locally, I didn't know that.

I can't believe the 7 miles of roads to be built, that's so ridiculous, like it needs done!! :grr:

[Rhiannon12866]

339. I'm not exactly sure what Bush* believes, but it's sure not mainstream...

I heard this explanation of why Bush* has no concern about the desecration of the earth, because he's about to be "hoovered up" (a term someone used here on DU :D ), in a speech by RFK Jr., who is an environmental lawyer... Bush*'s Interior Sec., Gale Norton, holds the same beliefs, one of his "anti" appointments, like the "torture guy" as AG, and the one who "ignored the memo" as National Security Advisor... :eyes:

As for the White House garden, Michelle Obama got local school kids to help plant it, then she visited their schools to help them plant their own. That seems to be a signature cause of hers, working with and educating kids, giving them access to the White House, very cool... :applause:

[tranche]

205. NOT ONE MORE TREE!!!

Not on my watch!

[defendandprotect]

208. Absolutely disgraceful . . . !!!

[bjobotts]

215. I voted for Obama and now I vote we get Obama to listen to us.We must stop this

[bjobotts]

218. This action is irreversible and greatly harms the planet.Extremely short sided.

[grillo7]

217. I can't believe we spent 8 years fighting Bush to protect the Tongass, and now this happens! n/t

[TommyPaine]

219. Don't fret, this is just part of the new "Happy Trees" Act

Recent research has shown that some trees, especially old growth ones, become severely depressed after a certain period. This melancholy can quickly spread through a forest and result in arboreal mass suicides. Pre-emptive removal of the trees suffering from clinical depression inhibits that effect, improving the overall mental health of the forest.

[Dr Fate]

220. At least he's not a far left! You all sound far left!

And we don't take too kindly to no far lefts in these parts.

[Grinchie]

227. All these apologists defended this atrocity will not get any food or shelter from me

They can gorge themselves on their DLC rations of GMO Corn and Soybean paste, with a side of half dead CAFO Chicken.

May their Karma attract endless streams of bill collectors and used car salesmen to your gated community, and may your Scott's Chemlawn sprout forth many itchy rashes on you and your children and provide many +"Unspoiled, Breathless Views".

In other words, You own it now. Have fun.

[Robb]

244. Drama.

"Roadless" was dooomed from the get-go. Instead of being surprised when the inevitable happens with piss-poor legislation, we should be working to create laws that offer real protection for actual pristine lands.

[newfie11]

230. I was pissed about this too but is this cutting due to the Pine Beetle

The Tongass National forest is 17 million acres and they are cutting 381acres. I know there is a problem with pine beetles there and as in SD the only way to stop or slow them down is to cut the infected trees and put more space between the trees. Having lived in the Black Hills in SD I have seen first hand the deforestation due to the pine beetles. I can tell you they are a very serious problem.
Many many acres have been destroyed by them.

I don't think this has anything to do with putting loggers back to work. Clearing 381 acres for a team of loggers will not keep them employed very long.

[SHRED]

240. "7 miles of roads"

That is very damaging and opens the area up to further abuse.
This is just a start. Once you build a road it's all over.

They want the original ancient old growth forests not out of wood volume needs but rather for the value each log brings the company.
Old growth big timber has a grain and texture quality that is not matched by replanted forests.
The Fed virtually gives this prime timber away at rock bottom prices and the timber corporations make out like bandits.

There is less than 3% of the original forests left in the USA and they are scattered. All others in the NW for example have been converted to hybrid Doug Fir tree farms that in no way resmble the ecosystem of a forest.

Why can't the timber industry use the tree farms they all ready have?
(see second paragraph)

---

--

[Grinchie]

307. The Pine Beetle has been related to Drought stress due to climate change

So, instead of Nature taking it's course, by allowing an environment of gradual change over millenia, you'd have Lumber companiesclear cut all the tree's, including the ones in the current process of evolving toward coping with Drought stress, and cart them away to be chipped up, mixed with fomaldehyde based glue, and then pressed into 4x8 sheets in a factory in China.

You forget the tons of Minerals that are incorporated within these trees, such as Nitrogen, Potassium and Phosorous that will be carted away from the ecosystem. Minerals that have been drawn up by the roots of plants over the centuries, never to be replenished. You think the next forest is going to be any more robust growing on a depleted soil base? It you think that, then you have a lot to learn about the earth and it's independent life systems.

If this area is disturbed like they intend, it opens up the doors to invasive species, and general degradation of the environment. But is is "Change". But that's not the change I voted for.

I have witnessed first hand the destruction of hundreds of acres of rainforest in Hawaii to grow GMO papaya. this happened within tree days. The soil that remained was rich, black organic material, the soil was beautiful. I returned a years later to see the progress. The soil was gone. All that remained were lava rock, and invasive weeds, along with Papaya trees that each had 2 lbs of Chemical fertilizer dumped at the base. The Tongass Forest consists of the same kind of Closed cycle ecosystem, and is very fragile. You take the cover away, or the constanst recycling of leaves and branches, the system will collapse in short order. Furthermore, soil temperature will increase, and organic matter will sublimate into the atmosphere.

Most people don't understand that organic matter will mostly disappear under the effects of heat, water, and chemical decomposition. In the tropics, the average lifespan of organic material is 300 days. After that, it disappears into the air, or it is used by other plants.

Int he temperate forests of the north, it is locked up in the Permfrost, and it we see more warming, there is more Methnae, Carbon dioxide and Nitrogen in the Permfraost then all the Greenhouse gases man has created since the Industrial revolution.

It is apparent that these well document facts are lost on the Obama Adminstration/DLC Corporate Cabal

[Robb]

327. Your ignorance on pine beetles is astounding.

Let nature take it's course? Brilliant.

[Arkansas Granny]

238. I don't understand this decision or how it relates to his earlier positions on the environment.

2005
+ Tongass logging: Obama voted yes on an amendment that would have ended taxpayer subsides for new commercial logging roads in the Tongass National Forest.

http://www.lcv.org/obama/obama-lcv-score-and-vote.html

[natrat]

253. wake up granny, the junta and the big corps own this joker and have their way with him

[truedelphi]

254. Guess a fella has to make a deal or two to

Ensure that the votes get counted and that the election puts you into office.

Obama is the first person allowed to enter the Oval Office on account of the vote total not getting messed with. Why was it allowed? What was he willing to do to make it happen?

Granted I am speculating, but it seems like he chose the same people in terms of Defense positions as a Repug would have, the same type of economic fraudsters for his economic team, and his Monsanto-based, industry connected FDA and Department of Agriculture appointments are pathetic.

So guess I have the right to be a little bit paranoid.

[Kaleva]

265. For that fiscal year

The proposed amendment, co-sponsored by McCain and Feingold, failed to pass. Senator Obama later did vote for the appropriations bill, along with 97 other Senators, which did not prohibit funds for such purposes.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/amendment.xpd?session=109&amdt=s1026

[SHRED]

239. Cutting the last stands of Ancient Forests while...

...keeping industrial use of hemp is a crime against nature and all of us.

FUCK YOU OBAMA

[LynneSin]

264. cutting 381 acres of a 2.6million acre national FOREST

I read another post about the logistics behind this and well, once you overcome the reactionary ** gasp ** of the title you'll find that it's about .001% of the park that is being affected

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8532255&mesg_id=8532453

[Kermitt Gribble]

269. Same argument

the GOP uses for ANWR - congratulations.

[LynneSin]

273. WRONG

you're not even comparing apples to oranges here but whatever.

First, you don't even call it by it's proper name. Republicans use ANWR to downplay what it really is - the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (otherwise refered to as the Arctic Refuge).

Second, both places have different designations AND allowed different uses with different protection. Tongass has always been available for a limited amount of logging throughout the decades.

Oh and edit note. The logging area is 381 acres; whereas, the drilling area in the Refuge is 1.9 MILLION acres. Very VERY big difference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy

[Kermitt Gribble]

279. Whatever?

Apples to oranges? The ANWR argument is always about the size of the area to be drilled vs the overall size of the reserve. How is that not exactly the same as your argument on this issue?

[LynneSin]

285. Because the Arctic Refuge, as everyone not GOP calls it, wants to use way more land than Tongass

Arctic Refuge is 19million acres and repukes want to drill 1.5 million acres of it or 7.9% of the land. Mind you a big chunk of this is also along the coastline which means the area of impact would expand way further than just the land itself. The land is also designated as a wildlife refuge which has it's own set of governing rules to protect the land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy


Tongass is a 17 million acre national forest, which that designation that will allow for limited use of gathering resources on the land. The area designated for logging is 381 acres or .00224% of the overall land. Logging has been allowed before on Tongass.

You keep yelling at me saying I'm using GOP tactics with my justification and yet you keep calling the Arctic Refuge "ANWR". ANWR is used by the right in order to downplay what the purpose of the land is for. It's one of those terms they like to use to help sell their point of view like "pro-life". The least you could do, if you're defending the Arctic Refuge, is call it by it's given name (Arctic National Wildlife Refuge) or it's given nickname (Arctic Refuge). Trust me, I was calling in ANWR too until someone from Alaska told me about the difference. "ANWR" is cold and impersonal, making the land sound like it's just a big empty plot of ice with absolutely nothing on it. People really don't care about driling on land that seems empty of any life.

[Kermitt Gribble]

301. LOL,

Do a search for 'ANWR' on DU and see how many people are worried it's a GOP tactic. Nice try.

So, if the 381 acres is such a pittance, why log it at all? I'm sure they can get quality lumber elsewhere. Or, maybe this is only the first 381 acres. "Logging has been allowed before on Tongass" - You know, people didn't mind when we clear-cut the first 381 acres, let's see how many more acres we can destroy.

It's all ok, though, since it's the Obama admin doing doing the pillaging.

[LynneSin]

306. You could say the same about 'pro-life' too and that pisses me off just as much

If you really cared you'd understand that concept and call it what it is.

But you know, it's much easier to be a knee-jerk reactionary who believes everything read instead of actually RESEARCHING and learning more about the process. Tongass is NOT a National Park or National Wildlife Refuge designation. It is a national forest which has always been allowed by law for very limited resource gathering. So you want to get your balls in an uproar over .000225% of the land being used to create jobs, go for it. But it is totally within the limits of our administration to use a National Forest for resource gathering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Forest

United States National Forests are largely forested and woodland areas in the United States. National forests are controlled by the federal government and managed by the United States Forest Service, under the direction of the United States Department of Agriculture. The management of these lands focuses on timber harvesting, livestock grazing, water, wildlife, and recreation. Commercial use of national forests is permitted and in many cases encouraged, unlike national parks. National Forests fall under IUCN Protected Area Management Categories VI.

The national forest system was created by the Land Revision Act of 1891. It was the result of concerted action by Los Angeles-area businessmen and property owners who were concerned by the harm being done to the watershed of the San Gabriel Mountains by ranchers and miners. Abbot Kinney and forester Theodore Lukens were key spokesmen for the effort.

<<<snip>>>

Many ski resorts operate in national forests. U.S. citizens are allowed to camp anywhere in national forests as long as their campsite is at least 200 feet away from any roads or paths

________________________

So where is your outrage of all those Ski Resorts setup in National Forests. I mean those are doing way more damage to the ecosystem than 381 acres of land being logged.

[RobertSeattle]

278. Agreed

There is a bit of DU "knee jerk" reaaction going on here.

[SHRED]

282. Why even that much?

Make a good argument for it.

[LynneSin]

287. The designation of "National Forest" allows for limited use of resource gathering

So this is not the first time Tongass has been used for logging and the conditions have been set that replanting must be done after logging is complete. And there is an opportunity to bring additional needed jobs. Of course there are always concerns. Still not sure why this is in a section that is roadless but if there was major impact to Tongass this would not be happening. If anything, I wonder if much of the negative press about all of this is nothing more than trying to knock down Obama.

[mvd]

288. I see your points, but am still against it

It's one of the last natural treasures we have left, and replanting isn't always reliable. I can't support logging there, but I see what you are saying.

[LynneSin]

293. I respect that

But I would hardly call Obama 'anti-environmentalist' especially since he reversed just about all of those horrid environmental'executive decisions' that Bush made right before leaving office. We have people here at DU ready to vote him out of office and well, I just feel that there are details that folks are overlooking, especially since we're talking 0.00225% of the overall forest (Tongass) and not 7.9% along with impact to the Coastlines (Arctic Refuge).

[mvd]

297. Agreed there; this was not Obama's personal decision anyway

He could reverse the decision if he wants. I just think too much has been done in that forest already.

[SHRED]

318. Tongass Facts

FAST FACTS
► Since 1982, American taxpayers have spent $1 billion subsidizing the timber industry’s clearcutting of
America’s Rainforest in Alaska.
► Over the past twenty-five years, U.S. taxpayers have lost an average of $40 million each year building
roads and clearcutting the Tongass National Forest.
► The Forest Services proposed logging plan includes projects which will continue to cost taxpayers tens of
millions of dollars each year.
► According to Forest Service records, fewer than 200 jobs are attributable directly to the Tongass National
Forest's logging program. Consequently, the taxpayer subsidy per Tongass timber job is over $200,000.
By comparison, the commercial fishing fleet in southeast Alaska employs nearly 4,000 people and an
estimated 5,900 people work in the tourism industry.

http://www.ourforests.org/places/tongass.html

[mvd]

286. Yes it's a small part, but also in a rainforest

Rainforests are very endangered. With global warming we should be very protective, and who is preventing .002 percent from becoming much greater?

[mvd]

290. Here's an article that shows how logging there has already harmed things

"But the natural beauty and abundant wildlife of the Tongass have long been threatened by harmful clearcut logging. More than half of the big-tree, old-growth forest in the Tongass—which represents the biological heart of the rainforest and provides significant cultural and economic value to the people and communities of Southeast Alaska—has been systematically compromised over the past six decades through clearcut logging and associated industrial development including the construction of more than 5,000 miles of logging roads."

http://www.ourforests.org/places/tongass.html

[Grinchie]

308. I agree. The Hypocrisy is self evident

Don't worry, Monsnato will be the first kid on the Block with a patented GMO Variety of hemp.

[sandyj999]

256. And the phone call from the DLC came here this morning at the wrong time.

Caller says, "Can you donate $100.00 to help the Democrats?" I informed him that I was not very happy with some of the decisions Obama has made and please don't call me again. It seems to me that everything old is new again.

[newtothegame]

263. Don't worry. It's all part of his intergalactic chess game; right apologizers? n/t

[anonymous171]

274. People/Jobs > Trees

[Kermitt Gribble]

280. In that case,

since there are so many trees and so many unemployed people, let's just make all the unemployed loggers. You've solved the ecomomy/outsourcing/unemployment problem!

[Orwellian_Ghost]

284. K&R

[Kajsa]

303. I am disgusted by this

and the fact that Ken Salazar,the new Sec. of the Interior
does not give a flying damn about the environment
and the creatures that live there.

Why in the HELL was he chosen?!?

[stranger81]

315. probably because he does not give a flying damn about the environment

and the creatures that live there.

I'm starting to wish I'd just stayed home last November 4.

[Kajsa]

317. Sadly,

I think you're right.

:(

[PretzelWarrior]

304. I thought no liberal/progressive posts were ever in the greatest page?

I guess you people spouting shit about DLC'ers were wrong.

[QC]

333. And I thought you made a grandly melodramatic final exit from this place weeks ago. n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

305. Well that is just terrible...

what the hell are they thinking?

[PurityOfEssence]

309. People who warned about the true stripes of this administration here weren't just attacked,

we were piled on, accused of racism, ridiculed as perfectionists, hounded for impeding the dreams of those who were somehow more deserving of ascendancy than we were, alerted upon, serially ignored, now unrecommended and harangued endlessly for simply being incorrect and somehow emotionally and morally inferior.

When the administration makes calculated concessions for tactical maneuvering room, that's one thing (albeit unnecessary in many cases) but this IS WHOLLY UNNECESSARY. This is simply slick-smiling, glad-handing corporatism of the most cynical kind.

Those who reflexively attack that the only alternative to this continual bullshit would have been acquiescing to a McCain regime should have their brains removed as societal dangers. We can and should influence this mob to stop genuflecting to the money-god at every turn and live up to the vague hints of fuzzy hope and heartwarming change that they used to emotionally grease their way into the hearts of the gullible and vulnerable.

Ultra-moderates, that's what they are: friends to everyone, and thus of little use to anyone.

By half-steps and moderate consensus cowardice, we'll clean coal our way to global incineration, have a nice middling blood-puddle in Afghanistan, suck insurance schlong so we can have a more expensive medical system that still financially ruins people and doesn't really cover people, buttress the financial puppeteers so real regulation is never instituted to protect the vast majority of society from being pawns for the gluttonous mega-wealth of the very few, enable Israel's cynical expansion of settlements and drag the party farther to the right while possibly losing control in the long run.

[Grinchie]

314. Wow, that's Pulitzer Award winning! I wonder if it would get through the skull of Obama

At this point, we must demand nothing less than perfection, and stop playing along with the fraud crafted by the Moneylenders for the last 100 years.

[truedelphi]

336. What you say rings true to me.

We have gotten ourselves into a real fine mess here.

We have a charismatic man who just incidentally happens to be a tool of the Masters of the Universe. Those of us who are watching carefully come to understand this President and now know that his Administration cannot be counted on for sound policy of any type. As an example, simply consider how unemployment numbers go higher while the new Economic Power is Goldman Sachs, whose sinister ties to Bernanke and Geithner are really paying off. The firm just declared a profit beyond any of its previous records, due to the Government-created policy allowing Goldman Sachs to Buy Up its Own Debt and declare that debt to be profit!!

Obama touts clean coal, and helped get the additional votes to pass that Cap and Trade Act that is so wicked that neither DeFazio and Kucinich would consider voting for it. Watch that Act quickly begin to penalize the middle and lower-incomed who still have houses to heat!

I could go on for another hour about the wickedness of putting the taxpayer at liability for several various Programs - Bailouts and BuyBacks of Treasury Bonds by the Fed/ and or Treasury, without establishing a single decent regulation for the firms operating with these monies, and with NO REAL OVERSIGHT.

[Raine]

320. This makes me sick

I thought I finally had an environmental president. :-(

[maryf]

324. NRDC has been battling this forever

successfully against Bush...what "changed"?

[QC]

330. How very, very hopeful and changealicious! n/t

[natrat]

332. i guess change now means destruction one of the last rain forests in north america

this obama turd is sleazier than slick willy, in fact at least clinton did some positive things re the environment

[George II]

337. Did you miss this?

http://www.earthjustice.org/news/press/005/major_court_ruling_in_tongass_forest_case.html

Apparently Earth Justice, a legal organization whose credo is "Because the earth needs a good lawyer", isn't as concerned as the knee-jerk posters here (many of whom probably never heard the word "Tongass" before this "steaming pile of environmental" hysteria.

From the article:

"This court decision gives the Forest Service the opportunity to design a timber sale program that truly respects multiple use on the Tongass by safeguarding those lands important for community use, recreation, fishing, hunting, and tourism from road building and logging. These lands include the Cleveland Peninsula and Gravina Island near Ketchikan, Port Houghton and Farragut Bay near Petersburg, East Kuiu and Three Mile Arm near Kake, Tenakee Inlet, and Uskh Bay, Poison Cove, and Deep Bay near Sitka," said Lindekugel.

Buck Lindekugel is staff attorney for the Southeast Alaska Conservation Council