FDNY written exams excluded hundreds of black and Hispanic firefighters, federal judge rules

[RamboLiberal]

Source: NY Daily News

A federal judge ruled Wednesday that the city used written exams that "unfairly excluded hundreds of qualified people of color" from serving as firefighters.

The historic decision could recast the racial makeup of the predominantly white New York City Fire Department.

Brooklyn Federal Judge Nicholas Garaufis ruled that the Justice Department and the Vulcan Society, an organization of black firefighters, have proved the city discriminated against blacks and Hispanics on two exams administered from 1999 to 2007.

"These unlawful practices barred over a thousand additional black and Hispanic applicants from consideration for appointment as FDNY firefighters, and unfairly delayed the appointment of hundreds of black and Hispanic firefighters," Garaufis wrote in a 93-page decision.

-----


When the feds filed suit against the city in 2007, there were just 303 black firefighters and 605 Hispancs in a force of 8,998, according to court papers.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/07/22/2009-07-22_nyfd_written_exams_excluded_hundreds_of_black_and_hispanic_firefighters_federal_.html

[WriteDown]

1. Here we go again....

What's amazing is the test really seems to exclude Asians (almost 100%). Then again, the MCAT, GMATS, GRE seem to be geared toward making it easier for Asians to pass. :)

[RamboLiberal]

2. I remember looking at the photos of the FDNY firefighters who died

at 9-11 and wondering how it was that there was a lack of black and Hispanics in a city so diverse with a large minority population.

I'm not denigrating those that died but I do think there was a problem in their testing and hiring processes.

Oh yeah and the racists are also out in the comment section of the article.

[Renew Deal]

5. There's a very strong Irish tradition in the fire department

And I don't mean this negatively. Grandfathers, fathers, and sons serve in the FDNY. Same with the NYPD.

[WriteDown]

8. Same with the police...

Also a whole lot of Italians in the NYPD.

[RamboLiberal]

9. But that also reeks of patronage

and a way to keep minorities out of a position and represenative of the ethnic makeup of a a city.

Guess it could be argued there is a strong African-American tradition of serving in the Sanitation Department.

[No Elephants]

18. When those traditions began, the Irish and Italian were minorities. "No Dagos, wops or Irish need

apply."

[AngryAmish]

57. Did you see "Gangs of New York"?

Fire departments were traditionally private. They got a percentage of what they saved - and complete thugs. The Irish were the most powerful gang members and since Tammany Hall relied on the Irish so much, of course the Irish began traditions of working in the NYFD.

[No Elephants]

82. No,. Did not see that. But a firefighter once told me if his home were on fire, he'd

make sure to watch the firefighters, saying he wanted one hand on the hose and the other in his or her pocket. I always thought he may have said that just for effect, because I did laugh. Either that, or he must have been anticipating a very tame blaze.

No matter what, though, I love firefighters. Always have. Just one of the many reasons I'd love to spit in Guiliani's face, just once. Or twice. Or..

[Kolesar]

47. Sanitation Department

You're killing me today :rofl:

[RoccoR5955]

27. In NYC, Irishmen were the first blacks. n/t

[No Elephants]

44. In NYC, African Americans were the first blacks. People of color in this country

just get treated worse for longer. And Native Americans and African Americans are each in their own class. Saying the Irish and the Italians were discriminated against is one thing. That is true. Saying they endured what African Americans endured is another thing, and untrue.

[WriteDown]

60. There is some truth to what he says...

In some instances Blacks were more attractive for jobs than the Irish due to the fact that the Irish couldn't speak English.

[Critters2]

69. No. In NYC, blacks were the first blacks. nt

[No Elephants]

83. Do I hear an echo?

:toast:

[Critters2]

115. For every group that came to this country but Africans,

things improved for them upon their arrival. As bad as things were in Ireland under the British, even during the famine, they came here because this country offered a better life for them. This is true of every European group that arrived here, no matter how bad their situation in Europe. And no matter what kind of discrimination they faced upon their arrival here.

Africans, otoh, were forced out of a land and a life that was meeting their needs and then some, that they had no interest in leaving. They made no choice about it, not even a choice forced on them by difficulties like the famine, political upheaval, opposition to conscription, or other factors that caused people to leave Europe. And for the Irish, it took a generation, maybe two, before they were assimilated. The racism in this nation demonstrates that African Americans are still not fully integrated into our culture, after 400 years.

To compare Irish, or any other European Americans, to African Americans just demonstrates a poor knowledge of history. Among other things.

[JonQ]

38. Do you know the stats of those applying?

That could be a relevent detail.

I don't see a racial imbalance as too much of an issue if it stems from lower interest among certain groups, and thus lower enrollment rates (so long as that disinterest doesn't stem from overt intimidation of course).

[24601]

41. I took a course once and one of the guest speakers was

Irish descent. He said something along the lines of, "Do you think we would have become politicians and firemen if we could have gotten honest work?"

[WriteDown]

6. We shall see....

I'm sure there are some FDNY members on DU so hopefully we'll get some comments. Also, hopefully you mean denigrating and not degenerating (unless you're some sort of mad scientist :))

[RamboLiberal]

11. Thanks I corrected that n/t

[Wizard777]

55. You called? I was mad. But I got over it.

:rofl:

Besides science is much more functional when it fueled by logic instead of emotion.

[WriteDown]

61. Are you in the FDNY?

?

[Wizard777]

62. No, science. Many many sciences.

[WriteDown]

63. Hahahahahah.....

Now I get it.

[Liberal_in_LA]

77. They start them on the path to fire fighter as kids in youth organizatons, difficult for nonwhites

to break into such a closed system

[No Elephants]

84. Also, in the New Haven case, the city got consultants. (The effort was kind of

half-assed, IMO. it was after people on both sides were threatening suit, and they had phone conversations with two consultants. Anyhoooooo).

The New Haven case involved a test for promotion, rather than for hiring. One of the consultants said that a lot of firefighting is learned on the job and whites tend not to mentor minorities. I don't know if that's true or not. Just passing on what she said.

In some cases in my area, there have been accusaations of very serious discrimination against gays and minorities at the scene of a fire. And when I say "very serious," I mean accusations that would almost equal murder charges. Again, I don't know if there's any truth to them. You see these things in the paper or hear them on the radio and TV when the charges are first made, and then you don't know what happens down the road. Plus, needless to say, insiders are very protective of each other and no one volunteers info.

So, as usual in human affairs, there's a lot more to it than it seems on the surface. That's why I have no patience with some of the posts on threads like this that display typical RW bluster and sneering.

:puke:

[Liberal_in_LA]

93. For some on DU, they are liberal until you mention discrimination on the job or police abuse

Then they become like freepers

[Dutch]

113. And for some on DU, departing from any aspect of liberal dogma makes you a freeper.

[virgogal]

4. Asians just don't seem to have the same testing problems that

blacks and Hispanics do,and if they do I've never heard about it.

[WriteDown]

10. Sure they do....

that's why there are virtually zero Asian firefighters. Wish there was a facetious emoticon.

[virgogal]

16. :-)

[RobinA]

73. Asians

generally out test everyone of every color on standardized tests. You don't hear about it much, because it blows holes in too many sacred cows. Please don't ask me for a cite, if I could find it I'd post it.

[No Elephants]

89. No link does often lead to a call of bs, but it also matters if these are

first generation Asians, where they live, how educated their parents are, etc.

But, RWers usually don't go below the surface. They're just not that analytical, or they would never be RWers in the first place. Unless, of course, they are very, very rich and have no conscience whatever.

[RobinA]

108. The Study

The article I read compared different groups of same socioeconomic status - Asians ahead in all groups. Because Asians came out so far ahead when like socioeconomic groups were compared, they then looked at test results between different socioeconomic groups, and the results were, well, embarrassing to non-Asians. Less educated Asians scored better than more educated whites and blacks. I am not Asian or African-American, so I do not a dog in this hunt.

[Liberal_in_LA]

79. not but they face the same hazing/harrassment/stress when they do get in

[No Elephants]

14. Give it a rest. A test does not "exclude" people who never wanted to take the test.

[RamboLiberal]

17. Self Delete

[virgogal]

19. Asians never wanted to take the test? Who knew? I'll

bet Heather Fong would be surprised at that.

Asians just seem to be good test takers.

[No Elephants]

45. I said that a test does not exclude people who don't take it. Disagreeing with that statement

is simply bizarre. One Asian proves nothing, nor did I say that no Asian ever took the test.

If Asians are great test takers, as you say, yet are under-represented on the NYFD as Write Down posted, what conclusion would you draw? That acing the test has been excluding them from the Fire Department, or that many of them don't take the test?

[WriteDown]

64. Maybe images of big White firemen

discourage Asians and other minorities from applying in the first place? Maybe that's why the outreach has worked so well.

[No Elephants]

85. I always thought words like "firemen" kept women out of certain professions, right along

with those same kinds of images.

Maybe some cultures don't promote running into a burning building as a career path.

One of the things, too, is technology, or part technology and part love of tradition. You really don't have to carry people down ladders anymore. And a lot of our population are too obese for even strong firefighters to carry safely anyway. But, you don't see a lot of FD's buying alternative equipment.

Years ago, safer garb was developed for firefighters. Many firefighters supposedly rejected it, preferring the traditional coat, hat and boots to safer duds. Go figure.

[anonymous171]

116. Asian privilege. nt

[Renew Deal]

3. Garaufis for Supreme Court!

:evilgrin:

[RamboLiberal]

7. ROFL - but evil evil - appointed by President Clinton

Nicholas G. Garaufis entered service as a United States District Judge in the Eastern District of New York on August 28, 2000. Judge Garaufis was nominated by President Clinton on February 28, 2000 upon the recommendation of U.S. Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY). On May 24, 2000, the United States Senate confirmed Judge Garaufis by unanimous consent.

Prior to his appointment, Judge Garaufis served for more than five years as the Chief Counsel of the Federal Aviation Administration in Washington, D.C., overseeing a staff of 200 attorneys. Prior to his appointment to the Clinton Administration in June, 1995, Judge Garaufis served for nine years as counsel to Queens Borough President Claire Shulman in New York City.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Garaufis

[No Elephants]

20. The FAA needs 200 full time attorneys?

[Regret My New Name]

12. Does anyone have any information on the exact content of the test?

[RamboLiberal]

13. You'd have to get one prior to 2007

Meanwhile, the city law department says it has already made strides to increase the number of minorities. Back in January of 2007, it began using a new test that was developed with help from outside experts.

The department has also launched an outreach program, including a $2 million recruitment campaign that pushes the benefits of becoming one of New York's Bravest.

The city says over one third of the recent graduating class are minorities, the most diverse in the city's history.

Of the roughly 11,000 firefighters in New York City, about three percent are black and 4.5 percent are Hispanic.

The lawsuit was filed by the Vulcan Society, an order of black firefighters, and the U.S. Department of Justice.

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/102753/judge--fdny-exam-discriminated-against-minorities/Default.aspx

[No Elephants]

21. Ruh Roh. Bush's Department of Justice brought this case? Could it be that they

wanted it to get to the SCOTUS, so that the SCOTUS would support NYC?

[RamboLiberal]

15. FDNY least diverse of all Major city Fire Departments

No one denies that diversity in the FDNY is a major problem. The FDNY is the least diverse big-city fire department in the nation by a mile. The number of black firefighters in New York has hovered around a paltry 3% for decades, nowhere near the 30% minority employment in the New Haven Fire Department. As of 2001, 23% of Chicago's firefighters were black, as were 26% of Philadelphia's, 16% of Los Angeles' and 31% of Baltimore's.

Out of all of New York City's dozens of departments and agencies, the FDNY is the least diverse, bar none.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/07/16/2009-07-16_even_after_ricci_fdny_is_on_the_hook_for_discrimination.html#ixzz0M27zy9LP

[No Elephants]

46. Obviously, that must mean that African Americans who live in NYC are less intelligent and/or less

able to fight fires that African Americans in every other city in the country. And also less intelligent than African Americans who apply for other jobs in NYC. The bottom of the barrel of all African Americans in the nation.

At least the reasoning of some on this board would lead to that ridiculous conclusion.

Threads like this bring out the "best" in some DU posters and also attract RW trolls.

[usregimechange]

22. White male Clinton appointee

[Celtic Merlin]

23. So, exactly HOW does one rig a written test to exclude minorities?

I'm not trying to be flippant here. I'm asking this out of a serious sense of curiosity. I can't recall ever taking a written test/exam that had questions written in such a way that they were worded or rigged against people because of the color of their skin. How does skin color effect your ability to pass a written test? What has color to do with it?

Can anybody shed some light here?

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[JayMusgrove]

24. I'm with you, I don't know how it happens, and I want to know

just how people of color can be excluded from tests, or fail on tests of common skills needed to be a firefighter.

[No Elephants]

51. Who said they fail tests of skills? And please see Reply 48. And, while you're at it, Reply 46.

[Generic Other]

25. a trivial example

I once missed a perfect score on a test because my Asian experience told me to answer TRUE, you do wash rice. My teacher insisted I got the wrong answer. I had never heard of Uncle Ben's Rice and she had never heard of Japanese rice, I guess. Because she and the test were wrong.

[Celtic Merlin]

26. There are no questions about rice on the firefighters exam.

I was a volunteer firefighter for years. My father was a career firefighter with the City of Pittsburgh for decades. I've never seen a civil service exam which seemed rigged in any way. The questions are not that difficult.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[intheflow]

29. He never said there was a question about rice on the exam.

He gave an example of how cultural assumptions can lead to biased test questions. Most of these tests aren't (we hope) purposefully rigged against minorities. But they are written from a certain worldview that assumes all other cultures respond to every situation exactly like they would. That's pretty much white privilege in a nut shell.

[Generic Other]

66. Thank you for expressing it so well

except I am a she. This was in home ec class. I still wash my rice before I cook it just like my mum, my granny and all the other Asian women before me. :)

Oh another test question that stumped me was the proper placement of silverware settings. We used chopsticks at home. I still experience angst when I am asked to set the table--like it's a test of my character.

With cultural literacy in the US, anyone with white skin has an advantage because they usually know what response is expected. They shake hands when they meet, they don't bow like Asians. African Americans? I can't even imagine the confusion they must feel over the handshaking thing. I saw pics of the Obama visit to Russia where leaders there consciously refused to shake his hand. How does an African American then answer the question of what to do in a formal setting when there is the possibility that someone will refuse to shake your hand? What is the rule then? Pull away and inwardly cringe? What does the White House protocol book say? When was the last time a man refused to shake the president's hand over his race? So maybe if I am a black man my sense of what to do in such a situation is slightly different than if I am a white man.

I don't know what kind of questions they ask on these tests, but cultural bias is a given. Those raised in white middle-class families have an advantage taking these tests. Educationally. Socially. Culturally.

[intheflow]

70. Sorry for blowing it on your gender!

:blush:

I've studied racism/white privilege issues for over a decade, and have a very strong theoretical knowledge. But inevitably I always astound and embarrass myself again when my own cultural assumptions pop out of my mouth one more time. I work at a black-owned business and it's really scary how often my white privilege comes to the fore. :( I'm thankful I'm at least a poor woman, at least that gives me a bit of a leg up/clue about discrimination and male privilege. Maybe by the time I die I'll get it down to only one overtly ignorant, audible white privilege remark a week, but being a white American, probably not.

[MellowDem]

117. Wow

I think your problem is over-analyzation and "white guilt". If you truly want to understand and empathize with others, you have to be confident in yourself, not constantly apologetic.

There is nothing inherently wrong with assuming, everyone does it. It's a useful tool. To take yourself to task over it because you are white won't lead to any greater understanding.

Indeed, by saying that as a white American, you are somehow more prone to saying something overtly ignorant, you are making a grand assumption and you don't even see it.

And being "white" has little to do with "blowing it on your gender". It's an internet discussion board, it will happen, and it's not a big deal.

I do find it funny that by being "poor and a woman" you are somehow automatically privileged with knowledge about discrimination and male privilege. There are many poor women who experience both, but have no clue about it. That's part of the problem actually. In fact, you say "I'm at least a poor woman", as if that is somehow a noble thing into and of itself. As if being white and American is somehow a disgusting thing into and of itself, something you are ashamed of.

This post actually reeks with bigotry, just of the self-branding kind. Just chill out and don't be overly-sensitive of this kind of stuff. It just leads to having the opposite intended effect. It comes across as self-flaggelating rather than understanding.

[No Elephants]

88. Off topic, but I don't think the Russians refused to shake Obama's hand because of his race.

I don't know if you meant that. It was egregious anyway.

[Romulox]

106. You think white Americans have an advantage as to knowing silverware settings?

You might examine your own assumptions. What you're talking about speaks to class, which is something that is often "invisible" to us unless we consider it...

[RobinA]

76. Worldview

So, obviously no one explained to some people, maybe more minorities than whites, that when you take a test with a worldview you adapt to the worldview of the test. I'm white and female. I've taken many a civil service test and done extremely well on most of them. At times I vehemently disagree with the "worldview" of the test. However, you match the answers to the worldview du jour, and viola - top of the list. It was always thus. Hell, it's good practice for when you get the job and have to adapt to the worldview of the employer or get fired. Come to think of it, maybe that's what the tests are really about. How good are you at discerning and then faking a worldview. What could be a better predictor of success on the job? OK, so it;'s been a long week.

[intheflow]

80. How are you supposed to adapt to a worldview assumption you've never been exposed to?

:eyes: Geesh, Robin, you're so lucky you're white and just knew the right answers, even when you disagreed with them! Those stupid minorities should just get a clue! :eyes:

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

90. Self delete

[Celtic Merlin]

81. I'll tell you what you can do to convince me.

Get a RECENT copy of any civil service exam from a major US city and show me the questions which have cultural bias in them. The stupid "rice" example was from a HIGH SCHOOL test, not a civil service exam. When you can provide examples of cultural bias on one of these exams, I'll believe it exists. Else, your charge of "white privilege" on civil service exams is no more than a pile of rotting garbage.

Celtic Merlin
Carlinist

[No Elephants]

92. I have a feeling nothing can convince you, nor do you want to be convinced. And who gives a rap if

you don't?

You've been answered, but see Replies 46, 48, 77, 86, 89 and 92.

[No Elephants]

86. My mom was one of the best cooks on the planet--a natural. And she always washed rice

through a sieve very carefully. But, in her youth, there might have been tiny pebbles or other things among the rice. So, she continued the practice her mom had taught her, even though you rarely find a pebble in the Carolina rice that she used. But, there are schools of thought on that--lessening the starch versus keeping it intact. Same with boiling potatoes for mashed potatoes in their skins to avoid losing starch versus peeling them first.

Uncle Ben's, though? Heavens, no!

[JonQ]

40. I can't think how they do it either

especially in areas of math, science and basic reasoning. Those seem pretty universal. Pi is the same number regardless of your skin color or cultural heritage.

The only thing I can think of is minority dominate schools don't tend to be the best in the country. Which would lead to lower scores later on in life among minorities. But that doesn't mean those tests are biased.

[No Elephants]

87. If you are the first member of your family to finish high school, you may never have heard of pi,

which probably doesn't come up when fighting fires, anyway.

My parents were immigrants, who lived among immigrants. Though my older sister was born here, she did not learn to speak English until after she started school and therefore was placed with slow learners.

And she was lucky because we did not fear getting shot at on our way home from school, or while eating supper at the kitchen table by the window.

Because of language, my mom could not help me with my first grade spelling or word recognition. Luckily, I had my older sister, but she had no one.

And so on.

Not everything is as cut and dried as "pi is the same in every language."

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hugabear]

114. It all boils down to education, and the lack of access thereof

If you're growing up in an economically disadvantaged area, attending a poorly funded public school, then chances are that your educational level isn't going to be quite as good as someone who grew up in a privileged environment, attending well-funded public or private schools. And unfortunately, the reality in this country is that minorities are more likely to suffer from this inequality.

So if you're taking a written test, it could very boil down to that.

[downindixie]

28. When I took the exam for the Police dept

There were two blacks who were working as temporary officers,they both failed the test! They kept taking the test for several years,but never passed.They were eventually just given the position by the mayor and the civil service board.This was in the late 60's and the city felt it had to have minorities on the department to evade federal action.I saw nothing on the test we were given that would indicate that the test were rigged for whites.I also learned that these two were given copies of the test by the chairperson of the civil service board and they still kept failing the test.Both of the guys were really dumbasses and really corrupt.By the way,I grew up with blacks and ran around with them.I knew a little about racism,but it didn't matter to me they were my friends.Yes,I live in Alabama and spent most of my time in Hobson City,Al.Look it up!

[AverageJoe5]

30. Bigotry of low expectations

I'm always amused by claims that a test is discriminatory against blacks and/or hispanics. How can that be? 2+2 = 4 for everybody, irrespective of your race or cultural background.

I disagreed with much of what former President G.W. Bush said or did, but I think he made a good point when he talked about the "soft bigotry of low expectations" manifested by claims such as this one, that the test was discriminatory against blacks and hispanics and that's why most of them got low scores on the test. Why not tell them that if they study harder they will improve their test scores?

[BronxBoy]

31. Yep

Because Blacks and Hispanics are just stupid lazy motherfuckers

[JonLP24]

32. Math is universal

Other sections can be culturally biased. That is all I well say about the subject as I have no idea what was on the test.

[BronxBoy]

33. And neither do a lot of these assholes...

who automatically assume that the real issue is a lack of intelligence of those of a darker hue

[dem mba]

72. I just read Gladwell's new book "Outliers"

and he suggested that math is indeed biased in favor of Asian cultures. This is because numbers are written in a simpler, logical and coherent way in Chinese/Japanese/etc so its easier for toddlers to learn numbers and arithmetic. They get a head start on westerners, in effect. Meanwhile we get stuck with things that make no sense, like 1=one, 11=eleven, 21=twenty-one; 2=two, 12=twelve, 22=twenty-two, etc. Why isn't 11=tenty-one, 12=tenty-two, or one-teen, two-teen, or something? This is just one example of many on extra steps Westerners have to learn to master mathematics.

Asians don't jump out of the womb skilled at calculus; their language and culture provides them with advantages. (The book goes on to discuss how rice-farming helps with this too. Don't ask, just read it).

Check out Hofstede for more info on the impact of culture.

http://www.geert-hofstede.com/

So my whole point is cultural differences can be systemic, even if it seems impossible at first glance.

I would LOVE to get my hands on this fire dept's test so I could judge for myself, but I understand it is not being released.

[No Elephants]

102. Great reply, but I'm guessing it would be wasted on your average

Joe. ;-)

But most people reading the thread will probably appreciate it.

[EFerrari]

35. Enjoy your stay at DU.

[newinnm]

118. Enjoy your stay in...ah fuck it

It must be nice to be so pure in your democratic leanings that you can summarily jusdge what other persons policital leanings are.


-nnnm

[EFerrari]

36. You've never taken a test like that, have you?

But you assume that people of color don't study hard?

[BronxBoy]

37. And I bet he doesn't see the irony

of supporting his beliefs by quoting a man who is the living embodiment of "Not studying harder"

[Number23]

42. PREACH IT, Bronxboy.

And I bet he doesn't see the irony of supporting his beliefs by quoting a man who is the living embodiment of "Not studying harder"

GW Bush: The fucking Poster Child of low expectations. Who got everything because of who his daddy and grandaddy were. And this idiot actually quotes him to disparage people of color.

[bobshin]

43. If what you say is correct, then why are there more Black and Latino

doctors and lawyers and other jobs requiring a higher level of education? For the force to stagnate at 3% minority for such a long period of time, there's something culturally isolating somewhere- and it has nothing to do with not encouraging minorities to "study harder". That's a cop out.

However, I would be interested in seeing what it could be on such a test that would exclude a wide diverse swath of minority applicants. Could it be that there's something that happens before getting to the test that keeps them out?

[No Elephants]

50. Tell me, Joe, are you a plumber, too? What did President "I fall off the couch

couch when I try to eat a pretzel and exhibit dry (or wet) drunk syndrome whenever I open my mouth" have to say about the bigotry of low count posters? We're all panting to know. And please see Reply ## 46 and 48, (not that I really expect them to penetrate your mindset).

[BronxBoy]

34. And one of the dumbest SOBs ever to attend Yale....

got elected President of the United States.

Look it up!

[No Elephants]

49. And your expertise in evaluating tests for race neutrality comes from what training or education?

[No Elephants]

94. So you know 2 dumbasses. And?

[merwin]

39. The argument was not that the test was designed to exclude minorities...

It was that the written test was not a good measure of a firefighter's abilities and that someone who got 99 percent will not necessarily make a better firefighter than someone who got 80 percent.

While true, there is nothing wrong with hiring thoe who scores higher on the test. If that is not true, then what is the point of having the test? A written test is necessary to determine if one has the requisite knowledge to become a firefighter. Someone who scores better probably has a better knowledge of the subject matter. We do not dispute this among college students, how is it any different for a firefigher (who I believe is is also required to have a certain number of colege credits to be accepted).

I personally think that the written score should be combined with the physical ability score to determine skills.

Unless I am mistaken and there were questions specifically designed to exclude minorities (of which I cannot think of a single one), I see the FDNY as doing absolutely nothing wrong here.

[No Elephants]

52. So, it's just a coincidence that a city as large and diverse as NYC has the least diverse

FD by far of any diverse major city in the nation?


The argument about the test may well be grounded in the observation hat African Americans (generally) seem not to do as well on written multiple choice test for the FD as they do on simulations that actually test firefighting skills, as opposed to testing the ability to take a multiple choice test. (I read the testimony of two consultants hired by New Haven in connection with the challenges to the test results in the Ricci case. It's online, so you can find it, if you are actually interested.)

I've done some recruiting in graduate schools (which means passing a lot of written tests of all kinds, standardized and not, multiple choice and essay).

Because all I had to go on was an academic record and an interview, to my regrat, I ended up hiring some people who looked fantastic on paper and interviewed smoothly. However, on the job, they could not think or perform their way out of a paper bag. And, with one exception, all of those were white.

Please also see Replies 46 and 48.

[No Elephants]

53. Threads like this always seem to attract thinly disguised racist trolls, both

low count and high count.

[Odin2005]

54. Uh, how do you rig a test to exclude minorities?

Given that there are no innate differences in intellectual ability between ethnic groups the accusation is stupid. The problem with with crap inner-city schools that result in minorities getting a poor education, and the tests are simply reflecting that.

[AngryAmish]

58. Disparate impact

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_impact>

[athena]

59. I guess you've never heard of how literacy tests were used

to deny black people the right to vote, and why the Civil Rights Act made them illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test
http://www.crmvet.org/info/lithome.htm

[merwin]

67. From what I understand, the FDNY requirements also include a certain number of college credits.

Is that a literacy test as well?

It's a JOB. If part of that job includes knowing the FDNY rules and regulations, then the written test is just as important as any physical requirements.

[No Elephants]

97. No, that seems a lot more like a poll tax than a voting literacy test. Geez,

when firefighting required a lot more ingenuity than it does in modern times, people had little to no schooling at all. You really need college course to do the job? I find that very hard to believe.

And, no, knowing FDNY rules and regulations does not require a written test. Besides, knowing them is really only a means to an end--knowing how to put out a fire. If multiple choice written tests exclude people who could do a great job putting out a fire, why not devise other kinds of tests? And not only for the sake of those individuals, but for the sake of society as a whole and kids who need role models? Or, we could just keep skewing stuff to favor middle class white men, even in jobs paid for with tax money collected from everyone. That will propr up and perpetuate stereotypes and lots of other ills. Of course, we may all end up in hell, where we belong. Whatever. I've got mine, for now. What do I care?

[Odin2005]

74. But this isn't a literacy test, it's a knowledge and aptitude test.

And it's certainly not using Jim Crow shenanigans like give a dumb white guy an easy question and giving a black guy a hard one, everyone takes the same test.

[No Elephants]

95. Yes, tthat is certainly a factor, but not the only one. Please see

Replies 46, 48, 77, 86, 89 and 92.

There is also the issue of what is cool/acceptable in the culture or to your peers. I went to public schools where you simply could not raise your hand if you knew the answer. Or give the correct answer if called on. Not only would not have a friend in the school, but you might get a kick in the gut. At a minimum, you got mocked--and in hearing of the teacher, who pretended not to hear.

And, if you got a good grade on a test, you'd better not publicize it and hope the teacher made no mention of it. I even got mocked for taking the courses you needed at the time to get into college, like trigonometry. Asking questions in class was similarly out of the question. And I couldn't ask questions at home either. Well, I could, but my parents were not likely to know the answer. And, needless to say, you did not try to discuss anything like that with your classmates or other friends.

That said, there was nothing wrong with my teachers. They were good.

My son, on the other hand, where he was mocked if he did not know the answer or got a low grade. World of difference in he motivation to do homework, study for tests, etc. I don't know if it just had to do with different times or the fact that I went to school in a poor town in Jersey while he went to school in a relatively nice town just outside Boston.

Anyway, a lot is involved in why or why not people learn how to learn, not just one or two things.

[Wizard777]

56. If the court is assigning traits to a race. Like being bad at taking tests.

Then it's the court that is engaging in racism. They shall find racism in all their decisions made in this fashion. But what they are finding is their own racism.

[WriteDown]

65. Decent point....

This is going to be interesting.

[merwin]

68. That's the point that I'm trying to get across as well.

The test was not racially biased. The suit was based on the fact that minorities were scoring lower on the test, therefore it must be racially biased.

[Wizard777]

71. I know I'm going to regret this. But here it goes any way.

That's also the exact same point I was trying to make about Sotomayors comment. But this was the Rorschach blot that helped me put it into perspective to allow me to say what I actually mean.

[No Elephants]

103. Have you read the opinion?

On edit. I mean the court's opinion, not the opinion of people here who have not read anything but the OP, either.

[Odin2005]

75. That's exactly the point I was trying to make.

This is an education problem. By trying to say this is a racism issue one is implying that blacks and hispanics actually are dumber than whites, which is complete crap. It merely reinforces racist views among whites.

[No Elephants]

105. Sorry, but minorities in NYC don't

all necessarily get a worse education than whites in NYC. They also don't necessarily get a worse education than minorities everywhere else in the nation. 3% in a job like firefighting in a city as large and diverse as NYC says something. And, you have posts on this thread saying these jobs are practically inherited.

[No Elephants]

99. Did the court assign those traits? Or was there a stipulation by the parties or expert testimony?

I have a very hard time believing a court in a jurisdiction as diverse and legally sophisticated as NY would assign traits based on race.

In the New Haven case, the town heard (over the phone) from a consultant who said that African Americans have difficulty with mulitple choice written tests and have had that difficulty for years, that it was well known. Now, I have no idea who this woman was or if what she was saying was true. However, I do know that is in the transcript of the phone conversation that was part of the evidence of the case. (I read it online, in pdf format, but I am not googling for the link bc for some reason, I cannot copy pdf links.)

If something is indeed that well known, the court may possibly "take judicial notice" of it. But, again, a NY court assigning traits on the basis of race? I'd have to see that with my own eyes before I'd even imply that. And, if by any chance it did, that is a sure overturn on appeal, if the other side raises it on appeal, and you can take that to the bank.

[joeybee12]

78. I wonder how this squares against the Ricci v New Haven (I think) the one the five a**holes

on the SCOTUS demonstrated conservative judicial activism and overturned Sotomayor. Maybe not at all related, but kind of interesting that this comes up now.

[No Elephants]

100. They did not overturn only Sotomayor. They overturned SCOTUS precedent.

Sotomayor was on the Second Circuit, and her vote was in the majority of that bench.

The Second Circuit is supposed to follow SCCOTUS precedent and not deviate from it. Sotomayor and the rest of the majority in that case did what they were supposed to do. (The dissent in that case declined to do what it was supposed to do.) Which is why all the Republican bloviating and charades about "her" decision in that case was exactly that, bloviating and charades.

But then, when the Ricci case got to the SCOTUS, the Roberts Court overturned SCOTUS precedent. Now, the SCOTUS, and only the SCOTUS, has the right to overturn prior SCOTUS cases. But, blaming Sotomayor because the Robert Court did that after her decision in Ricci is ludicrous, and all the Republicans who grilled her on it and brought in serial suer Ricci to put on a show for the camera knew that very well.

BTW, if you don't like the SCOTUS decision in the Ricci case, write your Senators and Rep.

[sazerac]

91. Draft Riots

The police and fire depts being dominated by the Irish goes back to the Civil War draft riots in NY. The Irish were very loyal. They would even arrest their brothers and cousins.

[No Elephants]

96. That's not what I'd call loyal. Oh, you mean more loyal to their paycheck than to their siblings.

Silly me. I was looking at it from the POV of family.

[sazerac]

98. Or Communiity

Just explaining the Irish thing.

[No Elephants]

104. Thanks.

[dflprincess]

111. Whatever happened to "Never inform"?

That's what I was always taught the motto was. (And not just informing to the English, the attitude was carried over to the U.S.)

And, did you know St. Patrick's Day parades became common as a way for the Irish to show how many Irish were in the city and remind the powers that be of the potential political clout they had.

[No Elephants]

107. Since the City got sued and changed the test in 2007, 38% of those who pass are now

minorities and, of the top 4,000 grades, 33% are now minorities.

Which of course, tells us:

Nothing at all was wrong with the test or hiring practices used by NYC prior to 2007. However, NYC schools improved very quickly and drastically. So did the brain power and/or laziness of minorities aspiriring to become fireighters.

:sarcasm:

That emote is there only for the minorities and the handful of slower whites on the planet . Most white folks, of course. would have been smart enough to pick up on the sarcasm without the emote.

BTW, don't know if that factoid was in the Daily News story on the case. I just read the NYT version.

[muriel_volestrangler]

109. Here is that New York Times article - much more informative:

In big cities across the country, firefighter entrance exams have tended to favor applicants already steeped in the ways of the job, like “people whose dads and uncles are firefighters,” said Richard Primus, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Michigan. That, he said, has perpetuated the disproportionate representation of whites in those firefighting forces.

Besides, Professor Primus added, some of that knowledge is not needed to become a good firefighter. “Much of what appears on written exams for firefighters is legitimately material that we should want firefighters to know,” he said, but some of it tends to be knowledge that “firefighting junkies have, even though it is not really necessary for fighting fires.”

At issue in the New York case, legal experts said, was not so much whether the exams themselves were biased. Rather, the law requires that if a test has the effect of disproportionately excluding minorities, then the skills it measures must be necessary to the job — a standard that the judge, Nicholas G. Garaufis, found the city did not meet.
...
Saying that the city had demonstrated “only a minimal relationship between the content of its examinations and the content of the job of firefighter,” Judge Garaufis wrote: “These serious failings culminated in the city’s decision to use the problem-riddled examinations to impermissibly fail and arbitrarily rank firefighter candidates.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/nyregion/24firefighters.html

[Blasphemer]

119. That certainly puts things in a different perspective

I also think it's the kind of problem that can happen with any job, irrespective of race and testing. Sometimes an applicant pool pits those with ample knowledge but perhaps a less developed ability to apply that knowledge successfully against those with less knowledge but greater ability to apply the skills they have to the job at hand. I've been successful in arenas where I have had almost no experience beforehand but if not for the circumstances that got my foot in the door (temping, having an "in"), it's unlikely I would have gotten those jobs as a member of a typical pool of applicants.

Back to the topic, if the exams weren't actually measuring the skills necessary to be a firefighter and the end result was disproportionate minority representation, something was clearly amiss.

[Zorra]

110. I'm gonna sue because I want to be a doctor but can't understand the

jargon on the med school tests.

If they use "photos and visual effects" on the tests to describe body parts and tools instead of words like scalpel, suture, frontal lobe and cerebellum I'm sure I could be a brain surgeon.

Anybody need a brain tumor removed?

Good lord, it's now official: this country is an Idiocracy.

[WriteDown]

120. Brain "tumor?"

That's jargon. Don't you mean brain lump?

[dsc]

112. I would have to imagine that the history of racism in the department isn't helping matters

I can easily see minority fire fighters avoiding the NYFD like the plague given that terrible history. If I were looking at two school districts to work at, one has a great history with gays while the other is horrible, all things equal I am going to work in the district with the good history. Maybe this will help the numbers but it is situations like this that necessitate affirmative action.