Rocket launchers sold to Venezuela went to FARC

[Bacchus39]

Source: AP

BOGOTA – Swedish-made anti-tank rocket launchers sold to Venezuela years ago were obtained by Colombia's main rebel group, and Sweden said Monday it was demanding an explanation.

Colombia said its military found the weapons in a captured rebel arms cache and that Sweden had recently confirmed they originally were sold to Venezuela's military.

The confirmation strengthens Colombian allegations that Hugo Chavez's government has aided the leftist Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC.

The bazooka-like AT-4 single-use launchers, made by Saab Bofors Dynamics, lack the precision and range of surface-to-air weapons and there is no evidence FARC rebels have used any in combat.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_colombia_venezuela_arms

[MADem]

1. Gee, what a shock. Who would have ever thought?

:sarcasm: for the irony-impaired....

[Bacchus39]

2. remember how corrupt Sweden is though, so who is to say?

shouldn't we ALWAYS give Hugo the benefit of the doubt?

[timeforpeace]

5. He's good to go around here.

[MADem]

10. Yes, the mendacity of the evildoing Swedes...how could I have forgotten?

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

11. you guys didn't read the article, did you? 3 rocket launchers, sold to venezuela in the 80s.

If that's the best "aid" hugo can muster, youse guys got nothing to fear.

[MADem]

14. I read it--no one said it was a nuke, now, did they? You're the one taking issue with the amounts,

it would appear.

Are they like prunes? Three enough? Six too many?

And what's with the "youse guys" comment? I am not a Swede. They're the ones kvetching. Maybe YOU need to read the article.

[Hannah Bell]

16. pathetic. seriously.

[MADem]

17. Yes, you are. You'll excuse anything, if it's Hugo. NT

[Hannah Bell]

18. not, actually. but you sure will swallow any gnat to hang him.

[MADem]

23. This isn't a gnat--it's an elephant in the room--one you refuse to see.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3988721&mesg_id=3988848

Do read the ENTIRE article, now. Chavez is up to his neck in drugs trafficking, and only Kool Aiders cannot see that.

[Hannah Bell]

29. you think three 20+-year-old rocket launchers = elephant, you've got vision problems.

you don't know what i think about chavez. my comments refer entirely to the bogosity of this specific report.

btw, if hugo = trafficker, he ain't the only one in high places in the americas. some in dc, too.

[MADem]

33. One more time--they're single use rockets. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

And these are three rockets that were FOUND.

That were sold with an end user agreement to VZ, by Sweden, who stopped doing business with them in 2006, quite recently.

How many others do FARC have, that have not been found?

You didn't read the SPEIGEL article, did you? Or the RADIO SWEDEN report either.

Put your fingers in your ears and holler "LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAAAAAR YOU." That usually makes the bad news go away. For awhile, anyway.

FWIW, we aren't talking about "other" people, in high places or low, who may or may not be "bad." We are talking about HUGO.

When you haul out the "two wrongs" excuse ("Well, Bobby hit me FIRST!!!" "Susie did it TOOOOO!!!!") you've lost the bubble.

Hugo is guilty as sin. He IS the Angel of the FARC, and he IS up to his neck in drugs trafficking. And his neighbors, and others, are sick of it.

[Hannah Bell]

37. headline says rocket *launcher*. a rocket launcher isn't a rocket.

it's not "single-use," and even if it were, it would still be more than 20 years old.


"Swedish-made anti-tank rocket launchers sold to Venezuela years ago"

Rocket launcher:

[MADem]

43. Your effort to downplay this is not succeeding, and you aren't reading

the articles, either--quite OBVIOUSLY. Your effort at "nothing to see here" is falling flat, and your little comedic illustrations are whistles in the dark.

Here, let me spoon-feed you a little info--try to digest it, now:

Chavez assigned the task of managing communications with FARC to Interior Minister Ramón Rodríguez Chacín and General Hugo Carvajal, the head of Venezuelan military intelligence. Rodríguez Chacín, who owns a hacienda on the Colombian border, was a frequent guest at the FARC camps in Venezuela.

The interior minister -- described by FARC as "a real badass" -- was apparently so impressed by the guerillas that he asked them for assistance in training Venezuelan militias. "Rodríguez Chacín asked about possible ways in which we could share our knowledge of guerilla war," Marquez wrote on Nov. 14, 2007 in an e-mail to Reyes. According to the message, the Venezuelans were seeking information about "modes of operation, explosives, camps in the jungle, preparing ambushes, logistics and mobility … Everything that would be required to react appropriately to a US invasion."

Chavez admired FARC founder Marulanda and was "downright obsessed" with his strategic skills, says a Colombian intelligence agent. The Venezuelan leader allegedly offered his idol a financial injection of $300 million (€194 million) -- the amount Marulanda had estimated it would cost his group to seize control of the government in Bogota.

The guerilla leader, who was short of cash as a result of the Colombian government's intensified anti-drug campaign, was urgently in need of the money. But the e-mails do not clearly indicate whether the payment was in fact made. Chavez denies that it was. Nevertheless, Marulanda, Reyes and the FARC commanders exchanged dozens of messages in which they referred to the "dossier" or the "300," their code name for the money.

According to a message that was sent to FARC, Interior Minister Rodríguez Chacín had prepared an initial payment of $50 million (€32 million). "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush," the old fox Marulanda remarked. He also mentions the subject in his last email, dated Nov. 20, 2007: "We must clarify whether this is a loan or a donation out of solidarity … It creates the impression that Chavez is interested in contributing to the FARC cause in order to boost his geopolitical project in a number of countries."

[Hannah Bell]

49. No, let me spoon-feed you from the OP:

ROCKET LAUNCHERS sold to Venezuela went to FARC
Source: AP

BOGOTA – Swedish-made anti-tank ROCKET LAUNCHERS sold to Venezuela years ago were obtained by Colombia's main rebel group, and Sweden said Monday it was demanding an explanation.

The head of the Swedish government agency that supervises weapons exports, Jan-Erik Lovgren, told Swedish Radio that the weapons were sold to Venezuela in the 1980s.

This is today's model of what was sold to venezuela in the 80s. It costs under 2 grand.

[MADem]

52. And one more time:

The bazooka-like AT-4

single-use

launchers, made by Saab Bofors Dynamics, lack the precision and range of surface-to-air weapons and there is no evidence FARC rebels have used any in combat.

[Hannah Bell]

54. NOT A ROCKET, MORE THAN 20 YEARS OLD, PORTABLE, THREE

[MADem]

57. Are you that uninformed?

The Swedish single use launchers come WITH a rocket.

Duuhhhhhhhhhh! It's like a disposable razor. See, you get the razor casing, AND the blade--all in one! You use it, and toss it!

You use the launcher (which has a rocket in it) once, and then you throw it away.

:eyes:

All CAPS will not make your halfassed argument intelligible, you know. You've not made your case. In fact, you're sinking, badly.

[Hannah Bell]

65. Twenty-plus-year-old ROCKET LAUNCHERS. THREE.

Were they armed?

You don't know, do you?

[MADem]

70. Pssst--one more time--the launcher comes WITH a rocket.

It's how they are made.

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

76. psst: one more time, it only mentioned the "launcher" part.

the rockets aren't welded to the launchers, you know, even in the modern versions. there are several types of rockets that fit.

"The AT4 requires little training and is quite simple to use, making it suitable for general issue. However, as the cost of each launcher makes regular live-fire training very expensive, practice versions exist which are identical in operation but fire reloadable 9mm or 20mm tracer ammunition. ...The 20mm version is also a recoilless weapon and is favored by the Swedish army because of the added realism of the back blast...There are several different projectiles for the AT4. Note that since the AT4 is a one-shot weapon, these projectiles are preloaded into the launcher tubes...."


& you have no knowledge of the specifics of the launchers made 1980-1989, whether they were "preloaded" or not. Nor do you know whether the LAUNCHERS in question were found Armed.

but don't let that stop you from leaping to multiple conclusions about the Colombian's reported find of ROCKET LAUNCHERS.

[MADem]

83. Did you miss the quote I provided for you?

And did you not read your own post? Notice how the practice ones are "reloadable?" That's so people can "practice," because they only get ONE SHOT with the real ones.

See, the real ones are not reloadable. They are already loaded with the "ammo" when they are received by the end user.
Give it up.

I do have knowledge of the characteristics of the weapon. It is a NATO weapon, BTW.

You though, plainly don't, and you're reveling in your ignorance of the topic with your insistence that you "think" you understand how these things work.


Here, in BIG LETTERS, since you don't read with very much attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT4

...a portable one-shot anti-tank weapon built in Sweden by Saab Bofors Dynamics (previously Bofors Anti Armour Systems)... The launcher and projectile are manufactured prepacked and issued as a single unit of ammunition, rather than as a weapon system, with the launcher discarded after a single use.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/at4.htm

The round of ammunition is self-contained in a disposable launch tube.

I won't hold my breath for a "Sorry, I made an error" from you. But you are very, very wrong.

[Hannah Bell]

93. aren't you the one who told me big letters don't help your argument?

yours get bigger with each post.

sorry, the big letters are now too big to read.

besides which, it's the same shit.

[MADem]

96. You're not reading the little letters. I thought you might have an eye problem.

I now see that the problem is that you won't let the truth get in the way of a nonsensical argument. You've overdosed on red-shirted Koolaid.

Perhaps you're also one of those people who just likes to fight on the internet.

In any event, you haven't been able to make your case in this thread, at all. Your arguments are not convincing--and that's the ones that aren't outright inaccuracies.

[Hannah Bell]

99. One is never able to make one's case with the willfully deaf.

[MADem]

102. And that, apparently, is what you are. An apt description of your malady, that. NT

[Odin2005]

249. The STUPID, it BURNS!!!

Do you have reading comprehension issues?

[hack89]

95. You missed this part

The launcher and projectile are manufactured prepacked and issued as a single unit of ammunition, rather than as a weapon system, with the launcher discarded after a single use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT4

[Hannah Bell]

100. I didn't miss it at all. you're late to the party. now tell me about the launchers

circa 1980-89.

then tell me if the 20+-year old launchers in the "cache" were armed.

[MADem]

159. You smelt it, you dealt it, now you prove it. nt

[Hannah Bell]

190. i made no claim. you did.

[hack89]

183. They were designed from the very beginning to be one shot and disposable

why would why they keep fired, non-reloadable and useless launchers?

Here's the manual:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-25/FM232_4.htm

More info.

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/antiarmor/AT4.html

[Hannah Bell]

56. nice straw. rocket LAUNCHER.

[MADem]

59. Hannah Bell, you're making an ass of yourself. The launcher comes WITH a rocket.

It is a single use weapon.

[Name removed]

158. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

166. Well, how nice of you to chime in out of the blue.

You have an opinion and a rather noxious and self-important vocabulary --and you speak of hyperbole to me? How...er... special.

I don't agree with your opinions, and I'm not terribly interested in having a "Chavez: Asshole Dictator Despot, or Freedom Loving Saint?" argument with you on this thread.

Now go have a nice day. I won't call you an "ingenuous fool," either. I don't think I need to come right out and say anything of that sort. We'll know you by your own statements.

You might try growing up, though, it would make people more inclined to want to engage you in discussion.

[clixtox]

207. Tell the truth now! You really are in Junior high school?

I write in English, if even that offends you then stop reading NOW!

You might get a grip on the history of Venezuela, especially the history of the true, bona fide despots and vile, institutionalized tyranny prior to Hugo Chavez's election.

You probably should be appreciative for the impetus my post provided you to learn some new vocabulary words.

"Noxious and self-important" says a lot more about your relationship to information and communication than my word usage.

Don't be a mad reactionary, get an education, it is enlightening.

[MADem]

212. You're amusing. In a goofy sort of way.

And you're the one that sounds like you're in Junior High, with this kind of pouting diatribe:

I write in English, if even that offends you then stop reading NOW!

Pity there is no "foot stomping" icon--one would suit right about there.

You don't have the ability to "offend" me. This is the internet. I'm not the one in need of an education, though. You might want to take your own high-handed advice--and maybe ratchet down the drama a bit, too. I don't think much of your thesaurus-laden vocabulary, either, dear. Sorry if that saddens you, but it's the honest truth.

See, you can't get away with snarking at people without getting a little on yourself.

Have a nice day.

[Sensible321]

36. Chavez and Drugs? I Didn't Know He Was a CIA Asset or Wall Street Investor.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5584551&mesg_id=5593324

http://www.narconews.com/narcodollars1.html

[MADem]

46. The "two wrongs" argument doesn't play well.

No one disputes that many actors are or were engaged in the drugs trade. Hamid Karzai, Osama bin Ladin, the beat goes on....

The topic here, though, is Venezuela and Chavez. When you play the "No, no, no, pay no attention to him...look over heeeeeeere" card, it comes off as an obvious attempt at distraction. It fails.

[Hannah Bell]

61. The topic here is THREE 20+ YEAR-OLD ROCKET LAUNCHERS worth less than $1500 each reportedly found

in a FARC "arms cache" by the US-funded gov't of Colombia.

It's you who's turned it into an opportunity to rant about the crimes of Chavez.

[MADem]

73. How many weren't found? An end use agreement has been violated.

Chavez has illegally transferred arms to drug-running rebels fighting a sovereign government that is his neighbor.

Those are "crimes of Chavez." You keep glossing over that bit, now, don't you?

[Hannah Bell]

80. not an "end-use agreement"! omg!

[MADem]

84. Well, the international arms community takes that "OMG" stuff pretty seriously.

You are getting desperate, and it's showing. Tell us again how those launchers don't come pre-loaded with one shot of ammo--we have only heard that false rant not quite a dozen times, now....

[Hannah Bell]

86. yes, i'm sure the big gangsters take it *very* seriously when the little ones go off-reservation.

- the "international arms community"!

lol! the "community" of gun-runners & death-merchants!

[MADem]

88. Ahhh, the spitting vestige of failed argument. I am not talking about big

gangsters or little ones. I'm talking about Hugo Chavez illegally providing arms to rebels against a sovereign government that is his neighbor, and you're trying to change the subject with gangster talk.

Look over here!! No, look over there! Don't look at .... HUGO!

[Hannah Bell]

dupe

[Hannah Bell]

92. & you know chavez transferred these 20-year-old rocket launchers to farc "rebels"

against a "sovereign" (cough-us client state)

how -?

how exactly do you know this?

did the colombian pres ring you up?

did you rub your special decoder ring?

remote viewing?

esp?

how do you know so much, MD-Dem?

[MADem]

98. Ah, yes--let's call the Swedes liars, now!

:rofl:

I am not from Maryland.

I see you DO have trouble with your eyes. It's MA, not MD.

[Hannah Bell]

103. the swedes didn't find the weapons, now did they?

my sincerest apologies for associating you with the seat of our government.

[MADem]

105. Ahhh, the Columbians used remote viewing to divine the serial numbers....

yeah, that's the ticket!


:rofl:

You're getting a bit sad, with this foolishness. It doesn't make you look terribly rational.

The seat of our government isn't in Maryland, dear. But whatever.

[Hannah Bell]

109. yes, the serial numbers of weapons venezuela bought 10 years before chavez

came to power are certain proof chavez is responsible.

your rolly-icon doesn't add weight to your apologetics.

dc = surrounded by md & va, homes of the dc aparatchiks, dear one.

[MADem]

113. They aren't eggs or milk, you know. They don't have a "shelf life."

Why you keep trying to insist that they do is beyond me.

Do you know we have weapons in OUR arsenals that date back to the Cold War? Yes, really, we do!

My ROFL icon is shorthand for "Your arguments are a foolish, funny joke." I don't quite get your reference to "apologetics." The one acting as an apologist here is you, refusing to believe that your Red Shirted Love is anything but sainted.

Your arguments really aren't very funny, though--they're starting to sound a bit strained, a bit crazed, and a bit sad. You aren't living in a reality-based world, you live in a world where sealed, single-use rocket launchers somehow "go bad" like week-old milk and it's more likely that this happens when there is regime change...or something.

:eyes:

[Hannah Bell]

120. still funnier how persons like yourself inevitably resort to the tactics they perfected in jr. high

school.

[MADem]

131. I beg your pardon? You're the one behaving like a five year old.

And it's not funny--it's sad.

[Hannah Bell]

139. you'd better go back & check the quality of your insults.

[MADem]

141. If I were going to insult you, you'd know it.

My observations about your poor behavior are not insults.

[Hannah Bell]

150. of course they are.

[MADem]

154. No, they aren't.

If you want to be treated in a mature fashion, you should behave in a mature fashion.

[Hannah Bell]

160. i'll take you for my model, ms manners. in fact, i did.

[clixtox]

208. Of course they have a "shelf life", nothing last forever, especially munitions! N/T

[MADem]

214. Those last for many years, if stored properly. Like nukes do.

There's no reason to believe those weapons weren't still usable.

Your concern, though, is noted.

[clixtox]

257. You have no idea about your assertion that these weapons...

"last for many years".

How many?

They could be nearing 30 years old, are they still as viable as they were when manufactured?

You don't know. They may be degraded to the point where they might be more dangerous now to the user(s) than to the target!

[MADem]

262. You're making the claim they don't last? Prove it. NT

[clixtox]

263. Typical childish response!

You are the poster(child) who has carried the torch claiming these antique "rockets" are worth creating an international incident over. No where in the news about this tempest in a teapot is there any allegation that Hugo Chavez, personally or otherwise, had any involvement in any transfer of these Swedish made rocket launchers to anyone, ever. Pretty inconvenient fact for you to recognize, of course, since that fantasy, or theory at best, is not being asserted by anybody with knowledge about what actually happened.

It hasn't escaped my attention how you respond to reasonable queries. Rather than engage in a civilized discussion you immediately demand the sort of corroboration that you so steadfastly refuse to provide. When asked to provide a link you either refuse without a viable explanation, get all huffy and rude, or actually provide a link to this same thread!

How nuts is that?

In well over a hundred posts on just this one thread you have shown just how threadbare your "POV" surely turns out to be.

Hugo Chavez is not a despot by any definition of the word.

So there!

[MADem]

265. There you go again.

You're making an assertion, not me. You are creating a fiction about the viability of the weaponry.

Prove what you are saying (and good luck), or step away. Don't ask me to make your case for you, that is what children do. Do your own homework, like a big kid.

If you can't, I will not be surprised. All talk.

[clixtox]

268. There you go again

You're making an assertion, not me. You are creating a fiction about the viability of the weaponry.

Prove what you are saying (and good luck), or step away. Don't ask me to make your case for you, that is what children do. Do your own homework, like a big kid.

If you can't, I will not be surprised. All talk.

[MADem]

269. Couldn't prove your point, I see.

[clixtox]

270. Couldn't prove your point, I see N/T

[subsuelo]

233. There is no proof Chavez illegally transferred anything

Quit making stuff up thanks

[Sensible321]

62. I Agree That Cocaine and Heroin Suck No Matter Who Is Facilitating Their Distribution

I also know the only way to make it unprofitable and put an end to the death and destruction caused by prohibition, which far outweighs the damage the drugs themselves do, is to make it too cheap for organized crime to bother with (i.e. legal). Let them go back to the 'numbers racket'.

More on why I think the drugs association is specious in this context in my post below.

[MADem]

74. Sure, but that's an entirely different topic. This also involves rebels and illegal transfer of

weapons in violation of an arms agreement, and Chavez has been caught red handed.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

177. Why don't you grow up? And stop lecturing and scolding people, like you're the

Little Professor here? You're not.

I'm staying on topic. The topic is FARC, Hugo, the Swedes and weapons.

If you can't stick to the subject, step away. If anyone's a "blatant" propagandist, "regurgitating regressive talking points," it is you. And oh, you're boring too.

So there.

Go away. And try reading the DU rules, too, before you mouth off.

[clixtox]

209. "Caught red handed" you write? Link, some corroboration? Fingerprints?

A confession?

A court verdict?

Or we should believe you because you are so knowledgeable about Hugo Chavez?

You are embroiling, face it!

[MADem]

219. Here ya go. Now go away, and stop tossing insults like a two year old.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3988721&mesg_id=3988721

[clixtox]

222. A link? Putting a link to this very thread shows what a troll you are!

No independent link to Chavez getting caught "red handed" doing anything nefarious.

You have no foundation for your misinformation.

[MADem]

225. Go away. And read the DU rules. NT

[clixtox]

253. What a hypocrite! Suggesting I "Go away" is against the DU rules. N/T

[MADem]

254. I am suggesting you "go away" from me, because your conduct is

antisocial as well as some of the stupidest behavior I have ever seen on this board. I didn't say "leave this board," which is against the DU rules, but you go on and try to play it that way. You never do let truth or facts get in the way of your bullshit slinging, that much is clear.

[Name removed]

255. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

256. Ah, spewing. An internet word--that means it's an important post!

I have no respect for you, so we're even. You are an expert in crude personal insult. You're easily the most offensive person I have met on this board. And that's saying something. Pat yourself on the back.

[clixtox]

259. Crude? Personal insult?

That's your only manifest skill displayed so far!

[MADem]

260. No, that's not true.

[Name removed]

261. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[endarkenment]

3. US military aid to fascist colombia government: 2,000,000,000+ this decade

lots of which aid falls into the hands of the government aligned paramilitary organizations involved in narcotics trafficking, death squads, union repression kidnappings, disappearances, etc.

But carry on.

[BulletproofLandshark]

13. Don't waste your time.

Their outrage only travels in one direction.

[Brother Buzz]

4. The weapons were sold to Venezuela in the 1980s.

Must be a lot of fingerprints on those THREE launchers. You know what I mean, Vern?

[Bacchus39]

6. yeah, and then they were in the hands of the FARC. when did that transaction take place?

know what I mean?

[Truth Talks]

7. Consider the source...

Associated Press = Associated Media Whores

Know what I mean?

[Bacchus39]

8. Sweden?? n/t

s

[MADem]

12. So the Swedes never said anything? That's your story? NT

[Hannah Bell]

15. lets see, the last year of the 80s = 20 years ago, know what i mean?

chavez first came to power 1998, about 10 yr later.

but no doubt, first thing he did when he took power was transfer three 10-year-old rocket launchers to farc. scary.

youse guys = pathetic, know what i mean?

[MADem]

22. They're single use rockets, but maybe in your careful reading you missed that.

They, uh, stay in inventory UNTIL they are used or disposed of in an orderly and documented fashion. Doesn't matter how old they are. And Sweden supplied them in the eighties and the nineties.

They also had an end-user agreement attached to them. Which means "You can't sell or give them to third parties."

Here's the bit of the article that you apparently missed:

Colombian officials leaked electronic documents last year they said were found on the computer of slain FARC No. 2 commander Raul Reyes in which rebel commanders discussed obtaining bazookas and other arms from Venezuelan officials, including then-military intelligence chief Hugo Carvajal.

There's your Chavez connection. He wasn't intel chief for Bozo the Clown...or maybe he was.

And then, there's this, from those evildoing GERMANS: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,557736,00.html

How Hugo Chavez Courted FARC
By Jens Glüsing

They called him "Angel." He was the highest-ranking outside contact for the Colombian guerilla organization FARC. More and more details are now emerging that demonstrate the close relationship between Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and the jungle terrorists.


...The rebels are now more dependent than ever on their guardian angel, Hugo Chavez. But Chavez is maintaining a low profile. After Reyes's death, he urged the Venezuelan congress to observe a minute of silence, and he even sent troops to the Colombian border in an attempt to intimidate Venezuela's neighbor. But he offered no comment, at least initially, on Marulanda's death. At the Latin America-European Union summit in Peru two weeks ago, "Angel" sought to portray himself as a man of peace.

With his back to the wall, Chavez is trying to ingratiate himself with his counterparts once again. Hundreds of e-mails on Reyes's laptops, many of which SPIEGEL has obtained, expose him as an accomplice of the narco-terrorist guerilla organization. Washington has already expressed its "concern" over Chavez's alliance with the rebel group, which is listed as a terrorist organization in both the United States and the European Union. Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama has also demanded that Venezuela be called to account for its support of FARC.

In early March, the Colombian military killed Raul Reyes, the group's second-in-command, in an air attack.
New details from Reyes's computers are constantly emerging, with less than half of the information evaluated to date. One thing is clear, and that is that the bearded commander was the guerilla group's gatekeeper. "All contacts with Marulanda went through Reyes," . . . The guerilla leader directed drug and weapons deals from his camp in Ecuador. He negotiated directly with an associate of the notorious drug lord Juan Carlos Ramírez Abadía, a.k.a. "Chupeta" (Sucker), who was arrested in Sao Paulo, Brazil in August 2007. According to an e-mail Reyes wrote to his leadership last August, Chupeta pockets $15,000 (€9,680) per kilo of cocaine smuggled to Europe, where the market price is $30,000 (€19,360) per kilo. "If FARC decides to get into the business," the e-mail continued, "it can supply as much as it wants: five, 10, 50, 100 or more." Reyes was referring to kilos.

Experts estimate that at least one-third of all cocaine from Colombia is smuggled to Europe and the United States through Venezuela, with the authorities apparently turning a blind eye to the activities. According to government sources in Bogota, Colombian soldiers at a military base on the border observe dozens of planes carrying drug transports in neighboring Venezuela on a daily basis.

In addition, Chavez apparently provided thousands of Colombians, including many of the guerillas, with Venezuelan papers. Intelligence agencies fear that senior members of FARC have also traveled to Germany using Venezuelan passports -- tourists from Chavez's Venezuela are given more lax treatment when entering the country than Colombians.

Chavez also apparently helped the FARC rebels obtain weapons by putting them in touch with two Australian arms dealers. His intelligence agents promised FARC that they would get them parts to build surface-to-air missiles. In an e-mail to Reyes on March 1, 2007, FARC commander Timochenko wrote that the Venezuelans would "guarantee travel for one of our men to the Middle East, so that he can take a course in the use of the missiles." The purchase of complete weapons systems, Timochenko wrote, is "very complicated, because of the existing inspections.". . .Chavez assigned the task of managing communications with FARC to Interior Minister Ramón Rodríguez Chacín and General Hugo Carvajal, the head of Venezuelan military intelligence. Rodríguez Chacín, who owns a hacienda on the Colombian border, was a frequent guest at the FARC camps in Venezuela.. . .

But of course, it's all about The Innocent Saint Hugo. Nothing to see, move along...

[Hannah Bell]

44. here's the OP, batwoman:

ROCKET LAUNCHERS sold to Venezuela went to FARC
Source: AP

BOGOTA – Swedish-made anti-tank ROCKET LAUNCHERS sold to Venezuela years ago were obtained by Colombia's main rebel group, and Sweden said Monday it was demanding an explanation.


Anti-tank rocket LAUNCHERS:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&ei=6SduStupJoTSsQOi36muBw&resnum=0&q=anti-tank+rocket+launcher&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=7iduSuWMEI7gswOLsanKDg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5

[MADem]

50. One more time, since you plainly cannot read or comprehend--they are single-use rocket launchers.

That means you use them ONE TIME, the launcher AND the rocket, and throw the lot away. Get it?

Sheesh, you're obtuse. Let's put it in big letters, maybe it will sink in:

The bazooka-like AT-4 single-use launchers, made by Saab Bofors Dynamics, lack the precision and range of surface-to-air weapons and there is no evidence FARC rebels have used any in combat.

[Hannah Bell]

66. Oh, they didn't find ROCKETS, as you initially held, but ROCKET LAUNCHERS?

[MADem]

71. Are you unwell? The rocket launchers are built with the rockets IN them.

They are single-use weapons, as I have told you a half dozen times, and you frantically keep ignoring, like that's going to change the facts at hand.

[Hannah Bell]

78. No, they're not "built with the rockets in them." They're built, then loaded with 1 of three types

of rockets, then sold.

The current models, that is.

The 1980-89 model, who knows?

Nor do you know if the LAUNCHERS in question were found armed.

[MADem]

87. They're sold with rockets in them. There--you admitted it, finally.

It's a NATO spec weapon. It hasn't changed appreciably, except to improve targetability and offer a clip on night vision capability.

Bottom line. The end user gets it loaded. They have no capability to load or unload the weapon, which is what you were trying to suggest. After the weapon is used, it's worthless. It cannot be reloaded.



Jesus. You're something--and that's not a compliment.

[Hannah Bell]

97. "It hasn't changed" since 1980-89? Cite?

"sold with rockets in them" isn't "built with rockets in them," nor "found with rockets in them".

Nor does it turn rockets into rocket LAUNCHERS, MD-dem.

[MADem]

101. You're the one looking for evidence. Get off your ass and do some googling, dear.

NATO and the US Army might have some good refs that will help you find the specific information that you somehow feel is important. The weaponry has been in their inventory for that long, easily.

I thought you finally "got it" that they're a single unit item? No? You're back on that foolish train?

If you haven't finally "gotten it" I cannot help you. I will conclude that you are grasping at an illogical argument in order to not have to admit that your assertion was false.

I will say that you're exhibiting repetitive and obsessive behavior that is a bit disturbing--and that's not a compliment, either.

[Hannah Bell]

112. you made the claim, dear. btw, am i to understood you use your computer from a standing position,

& do not sit on your ass while ranting about chavez on the internet?

[MADem]

115. I told you. I didn't "make the claim." I flat out told you.

Now, if you don't like what I said, or believe what I said, or believe the cites I offered you in evidence, you need to get up off your didactic ass and prove me wrong. You are the one asserting a change in the manufacture of the weapon, so you need to come up with the proof. That's how it works.

Get moving, dear! Come up with something a bit more factual than a squirrel with a launcher and helmet, this time, why don't you?

[Hannah Bell]

122. you made a claim. i ask for evidence. you can't, or won't, provide it.

most manufacturered goods have changed their specs since the 80s.

you claim this rocket launcher is the exception to the usual rule.

prove it.

[MADem]

130. I gave you two links that dealt with the manufacture of the weapon. READ THEM.

I did not "make a claim" -- for the second time (why are you so dull of comprehension that you cannot understand that? Why must you behave like an immature, repetitive parrot?).

I told you. I even provided cites. Two of them.

If you don't like my cites, get some of your own that dispute mine. YOU made the "claim" that the manufacturing specs changed. I say they didn't, not in any appreciable way. The basic characteristics of the weapon (weapon and launcher as a single unit) is what you got over the decades. You're the one childishly, and without any evidence, insisting otherwise.

Don't create a fiction that you've pulled out of your own desperate asshole, and ask me to prove or disprove it.
I am not the one saying the manufacture of those weapons changed--YOU are. And since you are saying it, you have to prove it.

So get moving and prove your "claim"-- or slink off smartly.

[Hannah Bell]

144. excuse me, but you didn't give me any links. here's the sequence of posts:

They're sold with rockets in them. There--you admitted it, finally. MADem Jul-27-09 04:39 PM #87

"It hasn't changed" since 1980-89? Cite? Hannah Bell Jul-27-09 04:53 PM #97

You're the one looking for evidence. Get off your ass and do some googling, dear. MADem Jul-27-09 04:58 PM #101

you made the claim, dear. btw, am i to understood you use your computer from a standing position, Hannah Bell Jul-27-09 05:15 PM #112

I told you. I didn't "make the claim." I flat out told you. MADem Jul-27-09 05:20 PM #115

you made a claim. i ask for evidence. you can't, or won't, provide it. Hannah Bell Jul-27-09 05:29 PM #122

I gave you two links that dealt with the manufacture of the weapon. READ THEM. MADem

***


I'll be happy to read them. Where are they?

[MADem]

147. Yes, I did give you links. Two of them. You don't read very well, do you? NT

[Hannah Bell]

161. where? you claim it hasn't changed, i ask for a cite, you respond (post 101):

"You're the one looking for evidence. Get off your ass and do some googling, dear."

my response:

"you made the claim, dear."

your response:

"I didn't "make the claim." I flat out told you. Now, if you don't like what I said, or believe what I said, or believe the cites I offered you"


But you didn't give any cites. you just claim you did in this post & every post since.




Hannah Bell 04:53 PM #97

"It hasn't changed" since 1980-89? Cite?


MADem 04:58 PM #101

You're the one looking for evidence. Get off your ass and do some googling, dear.


Hannah Bell 05:15 PM #112

you made the claim, dear.


MADem 05:20 PM #115

I told you. I didn't "make the claim." I flat out told you.


Hannah Bell 05:29 PM #122

you made a claim. i ask for evidence. you can't, or won't, provide it.


MADem Jul-27-09 05:42 PM #130

I gave you two links that dealt with the manufacture of the weapon. READ THEM.

Hannah Bell 06:05 PM #144

excuse me, but you didn't give me any links. here's the sequence of posts:


MADem 06:08 PM #147

Yes, I did give you links. Two of them. You don't read very well, do you? NT



Disingenuous. to say the least.

but of a piece with the repeated pretense that the colombian gov't finding three 20-year-old rocket launchers = chavez, & the repeated implication that sweden is the moving force here.

[MADem]

164. I gave you two cites that describe the weapon. You are claiming it has changed.

Now either prove it or be silent.

[Hannah Bell]

you claim it hasn't. you made an explicit claim. manufactured goods typically

change specs over 20 years. you claimed this weapon didn't.

put up or shut up.

[MADem]

171. You claim it has changed. I say it has not. You made an explicit claim.

If they "typically change specs over 20 years" as you insist, you should have NO trouble finding those changes on the internet. Now, get up off your ass and prove it. Stop telling me to "shut up" when you are the one making shit up.

I provided you two cites that describe the specs of the weapon. I ASSERT that they have not changed. Get it? If you assert otherwise, it's up to you to make the case--not me.


You'd better provide the cites to prove your claim.
And if you can't prove it, you'd just better step off.

[Hannah Bell]

178. excuse me, i made no claim it had or had not changed. Post 78:

"The 1980-89 model, who knows?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3988721&mesg_id=3989045


You, on the other hand made the definitive claim design had not changed but for a couple of minor details, as though you'd actually checked it out:

"It's a NATO spec weapon. It hasn't changed appreciably, except to improve targetability and offer a clip on night vision capability."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3988721&mesg_id=3989078


put up or stfu.

[MADem]

179. You wanna know? You really wanna know if it has changed?

LOOK IT UP.

Yes, I am saying the essential design (one sealed rocket in one launcher) has NOT changed. Get it? NOT changed.

If you don't like what I am saying, and you do not agree with me, you get your little fingers over to google, and prove me wrong.

The burden is on YOU. Now, step off.

[Hannah Bell]

181. you don't have any knowledge of whether it's changed or not. just bullshit.

like your pretense sweden is pushing this, like your pretense that colombia finding three 20 year old rocket launchers = "chavez did it".

step off yourself. you got nothing. and you're not even honest enough to try to back up your bullshit.

[MADem]

185. You don't have any knowledge of whether it's not changed. Just bullshit.

See, I can play the monkey see game too, Hannah Bell.

Prove your assertions or begone. You made the claim, now back it up.

You're batting ZERO thus far, and behaving poorly, to boot. That's apparently your MO.

[Hannah Bell]

191. ah, but i never claimed i did. *you* did.

[MADem]

192. Yes, I asserted no change. If you want to prove otherwise, DO IT.

Get off your behind and just DO IT. Stop whining about it. DO IT. Go on! Prove your point. And when you can't prove your point, well, slink off.

Someone very kindly offered you the spec book upthread to help you in your quest. Pore through it and get back to us with your stunning revelations, why don't you?

[Hannah Bell]

196. i didn't make any claim. you did. not my job to disprove *your* claim.

my request was perfectly polite & reasonable:

'"It hasn't changed" since 1980-89? Cite? "sold with rockets in them" isn't "built with rockets in them," nor "found with rockets in them". Nor does it turn rockets into rocket LAUNCHERS, MD-dem.'


your response wasn't:

[MADem]

197. You want the specs to have changed. That is your wish. Go find proof of that, or

just get away from me. I find your repetitive carping very strange, and unhinged.

You are behaving on this thread like someone who has serious issues.

Grow up. You've lost the argument, and coming across as obsessed.

Find the proof or begone.

If you don't put your proof in the next ranting post of yours, we'll know you have none.

[Hannah Bell]

19. pathetic.

[MADem]

24. What's pathetic is your inability to recognize a thief, a drug dealer and a despot

in a blood red shirt: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3988721&mesg_id=3988848

Educate yourself. Stop being so "pathetic."

[Hannah Bell]

26. i haven't said word 1 about chavez, & you don't have a clue what my opinion is.

but i can recognize when someone's trying to turn three 20-year-old+ rocket launchers into bullshit.

[MADem]

39. I'm not "trying" to do anything. The Swedes are making the case.

And they are making an excellent one. These are three rockets, as I have said, that were FOUND. Who knows how many others have been sent over the border, in violation of the end-user agreement that VZ signed with Sweden?

You're responding, in childish fashion, "pathetic" to every other post, because the truth is inconvenient to your image of Hugo The Savior. Congitive dissonance has turned you into a parrot, repeating "pathetic," rather...pathetically.

The man is a despotic drug dealer who sells arms to rebels in a neighboring nation in violation of international agreements. That much is plain. Process that information.

[Hannah Bell]

68. pitiful. squid ink & straw.

[MADem]

77. No, not pitiful, not squid ink, not straw. You have no arguments left, I see. NT

[Hannah Bell]

79. I used up all the good ones. Easy though, when the competition is arguing

that finding three 20-year-old rocket launchers with a value under $5000 by a government bought by the US = an international incident.

[MADem]

89. If those were your good ones, I'd hate to see your bad ones, because your good ones stunk.

Again, with the "but it was only a small amount....that they FOUND."

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

108. like your evidence chavez gave three 20-year-old launchers to farc?

which, i remind you, = none.

[MADem]

117. It's not my evidence. It is the evidence of the governments of Sweden and Columbia.

But we've established that you have reading difficulties.

Apparently, you have comprehension challenges too.

[Hannah Bell]

125. list the evidence.

[MADem]

134. Read the article. And grow up. NT

[Hannah Bell]

199. you can't. cause there isn't any. no matter how often you claim there is.

not one iota in this article.

sweden sold three rocket launchers to vz more than 20 yrs ago, at least 6 presidents before chavez.

colombia found them, they say in a "farc weapons cache".

that's the sum total of the "evidence".

[MADem]

205. You are behaving in an inappropriate fashion at this stage.

I have been patient with you, but it's clear that you have serious issues that have nothing to do with this subject.

I thought you said "byee" downthread, yet here you are, continuing to parrot the same silliness over and over.

Read the links. The "evidence" you seek is in them.

But you really don't want evidence, now, do you, Hannah Bell? You want to be combative. That is becoming pretty obvious.

[Name removed]

247. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

251. He's a dogmatist. throwing childish insults at those who criticize St. Hugo is his MO.

No use arguing with him, he refuses to be troubled by pesky facts.

[MADem]

264. Not reality-based, certainly.

I've never seen anything quite like it.

[Truth Talks]

42. This isn't about George W. Bush. N/T

[MADem]

51. Again, the sins of others are not under discussion here. We're talking about

drug-dealing, FARC supporting Hugo. The "look over here" excuse doesn't fly.

[clixtox]

258. "Farc supporting Hugo". Any links showing this "support"?

Hugo Chavez has never supported Farc and doesn't now, and your assertion is a complete fantasy.

Same with your drug dealing comment, any links? Any legit corroboration?

Of course not!

But you are a steady, surefire source of amusement...

Thank you for that!

[Brother Buzz]

20. Well, Hugo Chávez was in the Venezuelan military back then...

ergo Hugo sold them to FARC for cerveza money. Simple, no? Soldiers do things like that.

[Hannah Bell]

27. don't give them ideas.

[Brother Buzz]

31. The idea is as old as time.

I personally witnessed and investigated it when I was in the US Army, only it was done for drugs, not beer.

[Hannah Bell]

32. and chavez was the most likely soldier to do so out of thousands - because?

[Brother Buzz]

45. Occam's razor?

Actually, I'm inclined to believe three launches disappearing would be the work of an industrious private or corporal working in an armory. A NCO might be brazen enough to try for, say, ten times that amount.

Hugo, as a Lieutenant Colonel would have the ability to move hundreds, or maybe thousands (How many did Sweden sell). But since only three launchers turned up, I'm inclined to believe it was nothing but a one time petty theft from a Venezuelan armory, assuming you can call the theft of three bazookas petty.

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

72. that's because you're sensible. there are dozens of ways the "find" could

have wound up where it was, including the colombian gov't planting it there - we have only their word it was a "farc cache" anyway - though you'd think they'd plant something of more recent vintage.

but some posters would scream "chavez" if it were a cache of nail files.

[subsuelo]

229. it was proven by the laptop files dontcha know

[Brother Buzz]

267. It was not proven. dontcha know?

The Interpol commission was only tasked with verifying whether Colombia modified the files and handled them properly. It did not analyze the content of the documents.

[MADem]

41. No, they were likely still in inventory, and Hugo had his military intel liaison hand them over

to his drug-running rebel buddies who were his partners in the cocaine trade.

Swedish Radio: http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/International/nyhetssidor/artikel.asp?ProgramID=2054&format=1&artikel=2993206

Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-557736,00.html

Hugo is in this shit up to his neck.

[Brother Buzz]

48. Then it had to have been the work of a crazy industrious paper-hanging corporal

:crazy:

[MADem]

53. Hee hee....! nt

[Hannah Bell]

81. maybe you misunderstood the joke.

[MADem]

91. Oh, I get your jokes--they're a real hoot, too. Thing is, you don't realize how

clownish your assertions are.

[Hannah Bell]

127. not my joke.

[MADem]

135. I was referring to your childish, repetitive posts. NT

[Hannah Bell]

137. how does she ad hom? let me count the ways. takes two to tango, lady.

if i'm repetitive, it's because you are too.

[MADem]

140. Lady? Tango? Why don't you just dance off. You have nothing to say.

You're one of those cranky "internet fighters." When you can't prove something, you make shit up and "demand" that people "prove" your fiction that you've created in your own little head. That's the mark of a failed argument.

You've thrown it out there, though and it's on the record. At least we see you for what you are.

[Hannah Bell]

182. we see someone for what they are, all right. bystanders will disagree as to who it is.

[MADem]

186. You sound...unwell. NT

[Hannah Bell]

67. yes, the big international smuggling of three 20-year-old rocket launchers

worth less than $5000.

big time heist.

you're an old venezuela hand.

[MADem]

75. Nothing to see here, move along, others do it too, it was just a small amount...

Yes. Pathetic. It does describe the quality of the excuses you keep making for the despotic Chavez, funneling arms to rebels to overthrow a neighboring government. No wonder the rest of South America dislikes him--they probably figure he'll pull that shit with them, too.

[clixtox]

210. Continually calling Chavez a "despot" is a lie meant to embroil...

and nothing more.

Hugo Chavez was elected by a large margin in fair and honest elections that no credible source doubts.

Your persistent and blatant lies reflect poorly on your character and make your position likely to be complete horse poop!

You, Madem are the despot here, using childish argumentation to stifle differing opinions, albeit more enlightened.

Shame on you on multiple levels!

[MADem]

213. Ah, name calling. That's the way to make your point!

The one using "childish argumentation" isn't me, dear. Have a good hard look in your mirror.

I'm not the 'lying despot with poor character'--Chavez is. But you keep pouting and ranting and tossing "names will never hurt me" insults, if it makes you happy. It doesn't make you a grown-up, though. It doesn't make me want to take you seriously, either.

And I don't.

I don't particularly care what you think. I don't put much credence in your ill-formed opinions or your silly insults, either.

You go on and have a nice day, though.

[clixtox]

215. Hugo Chavez isn't a despot and you are a thread hijacker!

Every squirrelly response to legitimate queries as to your basis for all of the wild allegations you make, or ascribe to the Swedes, is constructed to be maddening and an affront to reason and civil argumentation.

Your pathological persistence, while defending your exaggerations, calumnies and right-wing talking points, has quashed any reasonable discussion concerning differences of legitimate opinion.

Your style and methods are characteristic of juveniles and fanatics, who, "knowing it all already", have no interest in respecting differing opinions and those who proffer them.

You are pathetic and you either need therapy or to stop playing games with adults interested in discussing serious topics, seriously.

Please, please, please.

[MADem]

216. No, I'm not, but your silly name calling is noted.

I have no regard for your input, because you don't deserve any regard, based on your comments to me.

I won't be taking you seriously until you start behaving like something resembling a mature human being, and cease with the silly little "you need therapy" insults. That's not "adult" conversation, dear--that's childish and the sign of a failed argument.

Have another gander at the DU rules, while you're at it.

And do put down the thesaurus--your overblown language doesn't suggest intellligence, it suggests a lack of confidence and a bit of desperation.

Let me speak very plainly, since you apparently aren't understanding me: I don't want to talk to you, is that clear? I don't find you or your sad little insults or overblown pronouncements interesting at all. In fact, my opinion of them is that they have no substance. They are angry little foot-stomping rants, and nothing more.

You can keep on with the foolishness, or you can cease and desist. Your choice. I should think you'd want to find something better to do with your time.

[clixtox]

217. The only time you haven't responded was when I asked for a link...

to back up your allegation that Chavez was "caught red handed"!

I don't need a thesaurus to write a post on DU. I am not trying to be confusing or obscure. I give those who might read my posts on DU the respect to not write as if my posts are composed for children. I write in clear, unambiguous English, attempting to communicate my point of view, or relevant information.

Your treacly denigration of me, and other posters on DU, may be within the DU rules but you lower the tone o this site appreciably with your tit-for-tat and combative style.

Please desist.

Please, please. please

[MADem]

218. Don't interact with me if you don't like me. The choice is entirely yours.

You can't help yourself, though, can you?

You may not "need" a thesaurus, but it's obvious you are using one.

I am not the one tossing immature insults--you are. Get over yourself, stop telling other people what to do, and do have one of those nice days.

[clixtox]

220. "Obvious you are using one" is an insult! As are many of your previous...

comments about me and others who have called you on your behavior, and your tenuous grip on reality concerning Hugo Chavez.

Believe it or not, I don't need a thesaurus to write literate English. Back when I was educated, a real long time ago, I paid attention and was inspired to acquire the tools required then to communicate for meaning effectively. An extensive vocabulary is a fundamental component of effective critical thinking. How can anyone consider a concept, or anything, if they don't know the words to describe or understand it.

Perhaps the basic problem between us is our differing definitions of "despot", which you regularly use as an adjective to describe Hugo Chavez.

A typical dictionary states; despot |ˈdespət| noun A ruler or other person who holds absolute power, typically one who exercises it in a cruel or oppressive way.

The only group with a gripe about Chavez are the economic and political tyrants who had been exploiting the poor and the workers, horribly for generations. Chavez isn't known as imprisoning political dissidents, even the coupsters who attempted to depose him awhile ago. He even has elections and has a constitution he scrupulously follows. To refer to Chavez as a despot or a tyrant would be insulting true tyrants. He is probably less of a despot than some of our own "leaders".

Believe it or not!

Really...

[MADem]

221. No, it isn't. And your sentence construction is clumsy and forced.

It's not terribly literate, though it is verbose.

And one more time, since apparently I'm not getting through to you, I really don't care what you think.

[clixtox]

223. Nor facts or the reality on the ground!

Only focused on your lying, unsubstantiated derogation of the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez.

You can stop anytime!

[MADem]

224. Tsk, tsk, now--you really do need to reread the DU rules!

And yes, you CAN stop any time. I wonder why you don't?

[Name removed]

226. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

237. So you acknowledge that is your goal. How special. nt

[Name removed]

246. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

250. Gee, you and your "buddies" seem to be working overtime, yourselves.

I have a POV. You have a profane, name-calling diatribe.

There's a difference.

[subsuelo]

230. Agreed, Chavez is neither a despot or a dictator

I learned awhile ago that anyone that says so doesn't have a clue about what's going on in the region.

[subsuelo]

228. no need for fingerprints. they have laptops!

[Brother Buzz]

236. Yes, plenty of fingerprints on the THREE laptop computers, too

or so noted by interpol

[dipsydoodle]

9. Reminds me of the some of the weapons

used against the USA in Afghanistan which were supplied to Afghanistan by the USA to fight the Russians. Stuff changes hands and shit happens - big deal.

Its always worth looking at the author of some of the AP stuff. Here's another fine example of his work :
Zelaya accused of drug ties : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090630/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_honduras_drug_allegations

[rabs]

25. The other side of the coin, from Venezuela

Looked up the Venezuelan response:


Ven. foreign minister Maduro says accusation is a "dirty and vulgar campaign."


At news conference today in Caracas, Maduro said:

-- "the accusations are part of Colombia's plans to allow four U.S. bases on Colombian territory.

-- "they (Colombians) are trying to do the same as (the U.S.) did with Iraq when it was accused of having weapons of mass destruction, an argument that served the United States in invade and take possession of (its) oil.

-- "it is a desperate response to the Ven. government's criticism against the installation of the military bases

-- "The bases represent a danger to all of South America, but mainly a danger to Venezuela."


Maduro remarks here (in Spanish)

http://www.abn.info.ve/noticia.php?articulo=192394&lee=16

[MADem]

30. And the facts, from Sweden, who sold VZ the weapons

http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/International/nyhetssidor/artikel.asp?ProgramID=2054&format=1&artikel=2993206

It's not looking good for Venezuela.

Sweden sold them to VZ, with an end-user agreement, and they ended up in the hands of FARC.

[Truth Talks]

21. Sweden vs Colombia

Sweden is the source of the weapons, not this story!

From the article...

"Colombia said its military found the weapons in a captured rebel arms cache and that Sweden had recently confirmed they originally were sold to Venezuela's military."

Get it? The last right-wing bastion in South America saids its military - supported by the U.S. - found Venezuelan arms in the hands of rebels. This is the same Colombia that fed the world a story about a captured laptop that indicted Hugo Chavez, the same country that invaded neighboring Ecuador.

Again, Sweden is not the source of this story! The source is Colombia, broadcast through one of Corporate America's mouthpieces, the Associated Press.

[MADem]

28. Oh, please. They ARE. And our critical allies the Germans are swept up in this fiction, too?

You're not credible. The Swedes, the Germans, everyone's making shit up--except Hugo Chavez, despot and drug dealer and ANGEL to the FARC.

READ: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-557736,00.html

Yet you blame the EVIL AP? Come off it. Guess where THEY got the story?

From RADIO SWEDEN: http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/International/nyhetssidor/artikel.asp?ProgramID=2054&format=1&artikel=2993206

. . .General Director Jan-Erik Lövgren of the Swedish Inspectorate of Strategic Products, the authority responsible for checking weapon exports, says that no weapons have been exported to Venezuela since 2006. The freeze, he says, could very well continue.

"We will weigh in this new information in any future decision to continue exports. We would then most likely say no,"he said earlier on Monday.

The weapons were found in 2008 when the Colombian army took a guerrilla stronghold. .The Colombian authorities contacted the manufacturer Saab Bofors Dynamics, in Sweden, to trace the weapons. At Bofors they could identify the weapons as belonging to a shipment delivered to Venezuela in the 1980s.

The case was handed over to Venezuelan authorities three months ago, but Colombia is still waiting for an answer on how the weapons ended up among the guerrillas.

According to Swedish Radio News, the Swedish government is very critical of the development. "Sweden is now working together with Colombia to investigate this further," said Jens Eriksson, who is Minister for Trade Ewa Björling's press secretary.

Jan -Erik Lövgren told Swedish news agency TT later on Monday afternoon that the Foreign Ministry is currently in contact with both Colombia and Venezuela to try to find out how this could happen. Until the matter is sorted out - no weapons export will be allowed to the country.

"When we get an answer we'll see how we take it from there, but for the time being we are putting our foot down and saying no," he said to TT....

You'll have to go back to the drawing board and think up a new conspiracy theory.

[Hannah Bell]

34. three rocket launchers that were at least 20 years old. oooh, evil chavez,

why is he giving obsolete weapons to the farc?

who is he *really* working for?

[MADem]

55. They're not obsolete to a group of rebels who have few assets and

don't need precision instruments.

Those SINGLE USE rocket launchers are perfectly lovely for, oh, blowing up a government building or creating havoc amongst a crowd. And since they are single use (a fact you for some reason don't want to acknowledge), they stay perfectly pristine if stored properly until they are used.

Precision weapons aren't always needed for every application, you know. Do you use a semi-automatic weapon to kill a fly, or do you rely on the trusty flyswatter?

Your argument is crashing and burning. Try reading the links I provided.

[Hannah Bell]

82. oh, wait, i thought they were being funded from chavez's oil & drug riches?

so why "few assets" & "obsolete" weapons?

you're saying US street gangs can get modern weapons, but proxies of the international mastermind chavez can't?

pfft.

[MADem]

94. You'll have to ask your red-shirted boyfriend, now, won't you, "batwoman?"

Who said anything about "US street gangs?" Except YOU, of course.

Where are you getting these little comments that you somehow imagine that I am "saying?" I said no such thing. I never said a word about street gangs--are you hearing voices? Imagining posts that are not there?

Or are you just obfuscating and making shit up again, to try to change the subject?

[Hannah Bell]

114. i notice you can't explain why chavez's ill-gotten drug millions can't pay for better weaponry.

ad hom is more fun, isn't it?

ps: i'm past the age for boyfriends.

"batwoman" as in "blind as a"

[MADem]

121. It's not for me to "explain" how Chavez spends his money. That's not the topic of this thread.

Ask your red shirted pal, now, batwoman, if you really want to know. If you don't like being called "batwoman" you shouldn't call other people that completely absurd name. I'm simply dishing back your nonsense to you--so you'll perhaps get a sense of how silly and childish you sound.

The bottom line, that you rail against, is this--Chavez supplied FARC with Swedish made rocket launchers that the Swedes sold to him. All the other horseshit you keep vomiting up to try to distract from that simple fact is irrelevant.

[Hannah Bell]

129. "Chavez supplied FARC with Swedish made rocket launchers that the Swedes sold to him."

The weapons were sold to venezuela "in the 80s" per the story. That = 1989 at the latest.

Chavez was first elected 1998.

ergo, the weapons weren't sold to him, & at least 9 years elapsed before he was theoretically in control of venezuela's arms stores.

so tell me again, your evidence he gave these three miserable rocket launchers to farc = ????

& while you're at it, explain these inconsistencies:

1. the colombians took nearly a year to ask the swedes about the serial nos.

"Three launchers were recovered in October in a FARC arms cache belonging to a rebel commander known as "Jhon 40" and Colombia only recently asked Sweden to confirm whether they had been sold to Venezuela, a senior Colombian official told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to discuss the matter."

2. The article says the weapons were made by Saab Bofors Dynamics, in the 80s:

"The bazooka-like AT-4 single-use launchers, made by Saab Bofors Dynamics"

"The head of the Swedish government agency that supervises weapons exports, Jan-Erik Lovgren, told Swedish Radio that the weapons were sold to Venezuela in the 1980s."


but that industrial grouping didn't exist until 1999:

"In 1999 Saab purchased the Celsius Group, the parent group of Bofors. In September 2000 United Defense Industries (UDI) purchased Bofors Weapon Systems from Saab (the tube artillery interests), while Saab retained the missile interests."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_Bofors_Dynamics

None too reliable, this article. Less so, your spin on the unreliable article.

[MADem]

133. L'etat, c'est moi. That's Chavez.

VZ is Chavez, and Chavez is VZ. That's what he says, at any rate.

So, whatever. They were in the VZ armory....and then, they weren't. They were in FARC's armory. With no record of transfer--not that such a transfer would be sanctioned.

And one more time--it doesn't matter if it was three (that were found) or three hundred (that were not found).

Keep whistling past the graveyard. It's good that you're getting all this down for posterity, though. I have a feeling that in future, you'll be a bit less enthusiastic.

One more time--the evidence rests with the Swedes and the Columbians. Read the articles. Word by word--sound them out if you are having trouble. Act like an adult instead of conducting yourself on this thread like an immature ass. It doesn't make you look clever. It makes you look a bit unhinged and ungrounded.

[Hannah Bell]

136. They were in the arsenal in 1989, before chavez came to power in 1998.

But of course, corruption in venezuela didn't exist before chavez.

you might explain the other inconsistencies in the story as well.

[MADem]

142. And they were in the arsenal until he gave them to FARC, too. NT

[Hannah Bell]

145. you know this - how?

[MADem]

148. Because militaries do inventories of their weapons on a regular basis, that's how.

And if they are stolen, they notify the originator of the weapon, in accordance with those silly end-use agreements that you were mocking.

[Hannah Bell]

155. which is why no one notified sweden the rocket launchers were missing

until 9 months after they were found by the colombian government last october, is that what you're saying?

"Three launchers were recovered in October in a FARC arms cache belonging to a rebel commander known as "Jhon 40" and Colombia only recently asked Sweden to confirm whether they had been sold to Venezuela, a senior Colombian official told The Associated Press..."

[MADem]

167. Gee, you are the expert on all things Chaves--why don't you ask him how often

he inventories his assets?

Sweden is "demanding answers," and they're demanding them of Venezuela: http://www.thelocal.se/20940/20090727/

[Truth Talks]

38. Please get a clue.

The Swedes didn't originate this story. They're REACTING to Colombia's CLAIM that its military found suspect weapons in the hands of rebels. Sweden and every other Scandinavian country can use all its resources to help the Associated Press (which IS evil) broadcast the story, but that doesn't change the fact that COLOMBIA either discovered the weapons or falsely claimed it found the weapons.

By the way, do you know who Colombia's president is? Did you know he was one of George W. Bush's pals? Yes, if Uribe tells us his U.S.-backed military has found laptop computers and weapons incriminating Hugo Chavez, as interpreted by Sweden and the Associated Press, then it must be true.

And how are the Germans our "critical allies"? Oh, that's right - they're helping us murder civilians in Afghanistan.

[MADem]

63. Ah, so International Evildoers have taken control of RADIO SWEDEN

Yeah, that's the ticket.

Of course they're "reacting" to some extent. They're reacting to news that the Columbian government has, and has shown them, Swedish made, single use, end user agreement rocket launchers with serial numbers demonstrating these are weapons that they sold to Venezuela.

Stop with the "Ewwww, there are evil guys here, and there, and over here" arguments. And waving BUSH? Come on--give that shit up. Stick to the topic.

I know who Columbia's President is, and I know of his friendship with Bush. That does not make these facts go away.

What, do you think that Uribe sneaked into VZ and swiped those rockets from Hugo?

And yes, the Germans ARE our critical allies, who happen to believe that the goals in Afghanistan are more worthy than the ones in Iraq.

You aren't making your case. "Uribe isn't nice, either" doesn't explain away Chavez's intel minister giving rocket launchers to FARC.

[subsuelo]

231. You didn't read the post you were replying to, did you

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subsuelo]

243. That's a definite 'No'

[Truth Talks]

40. Viva Chavez!

The Seattle Times recently carried a story that said Obama is now the most popular leader in the Americas, while Chavez is now considered the "George Bush of Latin America." Quite a charge coming fome a newspaper that endorsed George W. Bush.

Chavez is smart enough to know that nothing has changed. Corporate America is still the enemy, and when the rest of the world grows weary of its infatuation with Obama, Chavez will be an even bigger hero than before.

[MADem]

64. What a steaming pile of horseshit!!!

I gotta cut and paste this load, can't have you deleting this stinking anti-Obama rant without notice.

The rest of the world grows weary with its infatuation with Obama? Please--people like Obama because, unlike Chavez, he's a straight shooter who isn't a liar, thief, bullshitter, egomaniac, or drug dealer.

For the archives:

Viva Chavez!
Posted by Truth Talks
The Seattle Times recently carried a story that said Obama is now the most popular leader in the Americas, while Chavez is now considered the "George Bush of Latin America." Quite a charge coming fome a newspaper that endorsed George W. Bush.

Chavez is smart enough to know that nothing has changed. Corporate America is still the enemy, and when the rest of the world grows weary of its infatuation with Obama, Chavez will be an even bigger hero than before.


Chavez isn't smart. If he were smart, he wouldn't have a legacy of failed farming programs, patchwork bribes, profound internal dissent, food shortages, and drug dealing in his resume. The only thing keeping him afloat is oil. If Castro ever dies, and Cuba is freed, do you think those Cuban doctors will continue to do indentured servitude in VZ? Hell no--they'll be practicing in the USA, in no time.

[Truth Talks]

107. The world loves Chvaez, deal with it.

"A new survey finds that a majority of Europeans approve of, and trust, America's new president. But the rest of the world, the Middle East in particular, has yet to surrender to Barack Obama's international charm offensive."

European of Approval Surges

There's a lot of anti-Obama sentiment on this very forum - and it isn't hard to figure out why. Obama is not only continuing but expanding the war in Afghanistan. Rather than fight corporate corruption, Obama's enabling it. Many of Obama's appointees belong in prison, not government, etc.

In the meantime, Chavez is staying the course, and people respect that.

A coup in Honduras, a mini-surge of U.S. troops in Colombia and an Associated Press hit piece charging Chavez with giving arms to Colombian rebels - has George W. Bush really left office?

If Obama wants the world to like him, he needs to get with the program and join the Latin American leaders who have rallied around Hugo Chavez. These people certainly don't get much praise in the Seattle Times, the newsrag that endorsed George W. Bush.

[MADem]

110. No, they're falling out of love with him. You might want to deal with that.

Chavez isn't "staying the course." He's falling apart. His agrarian reform is shit, he's been caught dealing drugs and supplying rebels, and people are getting sick of his shit.

The only thing keeping his head above water is Cstro's doctors and sugar, and his oil.

Are you suggesting that SWEDISH RADIO is "in on" your halfassed conspiracy theory? Please. That's where AP got the story. They COPIED it almost word-for-word.

And, fwiw, this is not about Obama. It's about Chavez getting caught supplying FARC with weapons. Deal with that.

[Truth Talks]

126. LOL

"Chavez isn't "staying the course." He's falling apart. His agrarian reform is shit, he's been caught dealing drugs and supplying rebels, and people are getting sick of his shit."

Interesting. There are other countries in far worse shape than Venezuela, yet even many liberals like to bash Hugo Chavez. Why is that?

Which isn't to say that all or even part of what you wrote is true. But even if it was true, it would be bizarre. Aren't there some really nasty people in Burma or Africa that you could dump on?

"The only thing keeping his head above water is Cstro's doctors and sugar, and his oil."

So if Castro recalled his doctors, Venezuela would collapse? You should be advising Obama on our economy!

"Are you suggesting that SWEDISH RADIO is "in on" your halfassed conspiracy theory? Please. That's where AP got the story. They COPIED it almost word-for-word."

And where did Swedish Radio get their story? COLOMBIA.

"This is not about Obama. It's about Chavez getting caught supplying FARC with weapons. Deal with that."

No, this is about Obama's friend Uribe CLAIMING his military forces found some rocket launchers in the possession of rebels.

[MADem]

138. The Swedes know who they sold their weapons to--that's the part you can't wish away.

The end use agreement restricts third party transfer. That's the piece you're ignoring. Each weapon has a serial number on it. That's how they know what arsenal the launchers came from. Maybe you don't "get" that those weapons have been manufactured for a variety of militaries, and are a common weapon in NATO stockpiles? See, they "could have" come from anywhere--but the serial numbers traced them to Venezuela.

Unless those Swedes are in on it....or those clever Columbians managed to make up a serial number that magically agreed with Swedish inventory documents?

Come on. Get real. Only someone desperate to spin an alternate scenario would refuse to admit what happened here.

[Truth Talks]

143. No argument there.

There's no denynig the fact that Sweden sold some weapons to Venezuela some twenty years ago. That certainly qualifies as breaking news.

[MADem]

149. Absolutely.

And the two nations signed an agreement as to how the weapons would be used, to include an end use agreement. These agreements either restrict the use of the weapon to the purchaser, or have a "no transfer without notification" clause.

[Truth Talks]

168. You killed your story!

Wait a minute...a lot of nations sell weapons with end user agreements to other nations. That's news?

[MADem]

173. No, it's not news--except maybe to you and two others? NT

[Sensible321]

153. I Feel So Much Better Now - Doctors Are Only In It For The Money

Your comment about Castro's doctors reveals much. Perhaps those 'indentured servants' became doctors to help people rather than get rich. Granted, they would have a huge advantage working in the USA absent the massive student-loan debt that American students are saddled with.

What do you call those doctors in the USA who 'work off' their debt in remote/poor areas and face a *tripling* of their debt if they dare quit before the end of their contract? I call *that* indentured servitude.

[MADem]

184. Many are. And many Cuban ones would be, if they could.

What my comment reveals is an understanding of the quid pro quo nature of the relationship between Hugo and Daddy Fidel.

Doctors who work off their debt in underserved areas of the USA are not kept under virtual house arrest with their freedom of movement sorely limited. They can interact with the community, take in a movie, go to the mall--and they aren't controlled by "minders" who either work them for days at a time or force them to observe a curfew.

Your comparison is not apt. A little light reading for you:


http://venezuela-usa.blogspot.com/2007/06/cuban-doctors-defecting.html

Several Cuban defectors interviewed in Bogota said that they fled not only because of oppression in their own nation, but also because of unreasonably poor and demanding work conditions in Venezuela. Andres said that he could not stand the conditions in Venezuela, where he lived in a crowded house with a leaky straw roof which he shared with fifteen other Cuban doctors waiting to be put to work.

Yane, a 29-year-old Cuban nurse, said she had to work in Venezuela with little support. “There were many accidents, many injuries”, said Yane, who worked in a clinic in Falcon State, northwestern Venezuela. The clinic had “a maternity section, observation room, trauma section. There were just two of us, me and a doctor, and sometimes we had to stay there 3 or 4 days at a time without going home.”

The doctors also said that in Venezuela, Cuban minders monitored their movements, prohibiting non-work contact with Venezuelans. When not at work, the Cubans were required to be at home after 6 pm. One couple said that after they pointed out some problems with the programme, officials threatened to send them back to Cuba in retaliation.

The Cubans said that the programme they worked in, called “Inside the Barrio”, was also plagued with mismanagement and inefficiency. Although many clinics were severely understaffed, newly-arrived medics sometimes sat for months waiting for assignment to a post, they said, and often conditions in the clinics were rudimentary lacking even basic medicines....




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yoani-sanchez/cuban-doctors-traded-for_b_155465.html

[Sensible321]

58. Someone Doesn't Get It

Scroll down on the link I listed above (and here) and take a look at the photo of NYSE Chairman Richard Grasso greeting a FARC Commmander.

http://www.narconews.com/narcodollars1.html

Now who is the "angel" of the FARC?

The "War on Drugs" is nothing but a rigged game. Accusations of drug-dealing, unless you are going to implicate the "respectable" men at the top of the world's economic system (the larger rigged game), is a specious argument in this context.

Both sides in Columbia deal drugs and with help from elements in the US govt. Read _Powder Burns_ by retired DEA Agent Celerino "Cele" Castillo, the Gary Webb articles, and watch the Showtime special "American Drug War" for context; Get educated on this.

Oh - and yes - Cocaine and Heroin are life-wrecking substances. So are many pharmaceuticals - watch the documentary "Generation RX" for a quick peek into that aspect.

As far as the Sweedes go - why are they selling arms if they didn't want to get their hands dirty?

[MADem]

69. And if you'll look, that happened when? During the Clinton administration.

This business is happening now.

And you do know that that guy (who is an EX-NYSE chair) was MIRED in scandal, for that very trip, AND for other reasons. Here's how Reuters covered that bizarre meeting: http://www.colombiasupport.net/199906/nysefarc.html

If I had to guess, I'd say the guy had intel ties. But that's not the topic here, now, is it?

One. More. Time.

I will not be distracted by "Ewwww, that one's bad TOOOOOOO." I won't even be distracted by "Prescription drugs are bad, TOOOOOO." That's not what this thread is about. We aren't playing a "Two wrongs make a right" game.

The topic of this thread is Hugo and the Swedes and rocket launchers--single use rocket launchers, that ended up in the hands of the FARC. I really don't care about "other" people who are "bad." Their being "bad" doesn't magically make Hugo "good."

All this story does is more firmly place Hugo in with a pack of other bad assholes, now, doesn't it?

[Hannah Bell]

85. you have no idea when those ROCKET LAUNCHERS got into the hands of farc, or how.

In fact, you don't even *really* know if they ever *were* in the hands of farc.

you sure are willing to spin shit on slight evidence though.

[MADem]

90. Yeah, cuz...cuz,,,Uribe sneaked over the border an', an' he STOLE 'em from poor Hugo!!

Yeah....that's the ticket!!

You're being silly now. Slight evidence? The Swedes keep good records.

The one spinning "shit" isn't me, here. Look in your mirror.

[Hannah Bell]

104. the swedes didn't find the weapons. the colombians did. as you know.

[MADem]

106. The Swedes had the serial numbers of the weapons on file.

That's how they knew who they sold them to. Or do you think the Columbians just got lucky and made up a "good" serial number?

Ooops.

What now? Quick--find someone to blame, find some excuse...hurry now, hurry!

[Hannah Bell]

116. the serial numbers are irrelevant. they show who bought the weapons 20-plus years ago.

period.

not how they got into the hands of the farc, or even if they really did.

& not how they got into the hands of the colombian government, which claims it found them in a "farc weapons cache".

[MADem]

124. Ah, you don't understand how the weapons are made, and you don't understand

how an international arms control end-user agreement (you know, that thing you were mocking, quite ignorantly and self-importantly, upthread) works either.

You cannot transfer weapons to a third party without notifying the nation that sold you the weapons in the first place, and getting their approval for the transfer--that's how they work.

Weak try; no sale.

[Hannah Bell]

128. they show who bought the weapons 20-odd-years ago, your evidence

for chavez's involvement = ???

[MADem]

146. If the weapons were stolen or went missing, the VZ government would have notified

the Swedish government. They didn't do that.

Are you saying that the VZ army never does inventories? I'd imagine with a former army dictator-president, they'd be very interested in doing things by the book. You're either saying that the VZ army never did inventories over the years, or they did do them, and never, ever noticed that these launchers, which they signed an agreement with the Swedish government not to transfer to a third party, went missing?

You're straining credulity. But then, you were insisting that they were reloadable, too, and we know that's crap, as well.

[Hannah Bell]

151. sure, because everyone knows how meticulous & honest the venezuelan bureaucracy

always has been, everything accounted for down to the last bullet.

until chavez, of course.

[MADem]

169. Well, Chavez has had, what, ten years, to straighten that shit out?

And he was IN the army before. I think he knows how it is done.

[Hannah Bell]

175. ah, but you see, i never made the claim chavez was honest, better than

or more noble than his predecessors, that he was my idol, or anything like that.

that spin is entirely your projection. perhaps if you hadn't been so busy insulting me you could have heard better. here are my claims:

1. rocket *launchers*

2. no evidence chavez was involved.


story = colombia has three rocket launchers, sweden verified they sold them to vz 20+ years ago.

well whoop-ti-do, big doings.

[MADem]

187. Ah, so now your excuse is "Chavez is not honest?" That would make him...corrupt.

:rofl:

We agree on something--Chavez is, indeed, corrupt.

But sorry--it is 'big doings' when a sovereign nation violates end user arms transfer agreements and gets caught. An inventory would have caught a theft--but there was no theft, now, was there?

[Hannah Bell]

193. I don't need an excuse. I've made no declaration of allegiance to anything or anyone.

i've claimed neither that chavez is clean or corrupt.

you have a real comprehension problem.



I've made only one claim regarding chavez:

1. There's no evidence chavez had anything to do with the colombian find of three 20 year old rocket launchers.


byee.

[MADem]

200. You're the only one who thinks that.

And by "byee" I'll take that to mean that you don't have a single substantive comment to back up that load of utter nonsense.

Have one of those nice days, and get some help.

[subsuelo]

234. Actually, reading through this thread

You are the only one here that is arguing otherwise.

Nobody else is saying that this constitutes definite, undeniable proof that Chavez is selling arms to the FARC.

Only *you* are trying to make that claim.

[MADem]

240. Gee, I really don't care what you think, either.

Your "Everyone else feels that way" groupthink viewpoint is right up Hugo's alley, though. No wonder he's your boy! Fall in line, don't question the fat clown in the red shirt--no dissent! Yeah, that's the ticket!

How interesting that you suddenly showed up, so late to the party, dropping your opinions here and there, like little flowers, or turds. Very special. Very convenient. Very interesting....if I cared what you thought. I don't, though.

No one is insisting that Fatboy sold those arms--he quite possibly GAVE them away. All we know is once he had them, and then the FARC had 'em. And he's friends with the FARC.

Have a nice day.

[subsuelo]

242. when you're past elementary school level discourse, do let the rest of us know

[MADem]

244. Ah, you know all about that, I'm sure.

I won't "let you know" though--I already know you, and I'm familiar with your POV. Not interested in discussing anything with you, there's no point. But your "contributions" are noted.

Have a nice day.

[Sensible321]

163. What Makes Hugo Better is What He Is Doing With Venezuela's Resources

Helping people - millions of them. Health care for the 1st time in their lives, etc.

If Al Capone pointed his finger at someone and called them a dirty bootlegger, would you believe it? That is what the US or other Western powers accusing a Latin American country of these crimes amounts to.

But even if he is a weapons-dealing drug-dealer, that would only make him the same as the rest our our/their leaders in those aspects but still *better* with regard to social policies.

Also, dictators do not run in elections certified by the Carter Center / UN - Venezuela's elections are cleaner than the USA's, which do not meet the necessary qualifications.

Yes, these are tangents, but you brought them up.

[MADem]

176. No, he's not. But if you really want to talk about that, start a thread on the Wonders of Hugo.

This thread is about Hugo and his intel minister floating rocket launchers to FARC and getting caught at it.

And the Swedes being pissed off about it.

[Hannah Bell]

198. evidence sweden is "pissed off"? evidence chavez floated the launchers to farc?

[MADem]

204. You're unhealthily obsessed and you aren't making sense.

Sweden has SAID they were pissed off, in the many links I have provided from the Swedish media. Sweden has said that the weapons were sold to VZ.

Go read the links, why don't you, and stop posting nonsense. You're not coming across like someone in control of their emotions at this stage.

The "evidence" you seek is in the links. Sound out the words slowly, maybe you'll figure it out.

I guess when you said "byee" you really didn't mean it...is that it? Pity.

:eyes:

[FarCenter]

35. Weight = 15 pounds, Price = $1,480.64

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT4

Seems like these might walk off pretty easily.

[Brother Buzz]

60. That translates to a LOT of cerveza!

plus a generator and refrigerator to keep it COLD! You know what I mean, Vern?

[ohio2007]

119. time for a complete on hand weapons inventory.....then a pizza run with "what falls off the truck"

Know what I mean ?

[Hannah Bell]

123. yes, i do.

[Truth Talks]

47. Colombia's Military: Mission Impossible

I was just wondering if s military to help search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? If they can find aging rocket launchers and laptops loaded with sensitive files in the rain forest, surely they can find a missile silo in the Iraqi desert! They could take along the Associated Press as embedded reporters and get Sweden to testify that they gave Iraq the bricks to build those silos thirty years ago...

[Freddie Stubbs]

111. Obviously a set-up by the right-wing Swedes who are out to get Chavez

[Hannah Bell]

118. the swedes didn't find the weapons. the colombians did. 9 months ago.

took a long time for the swedes to get involved, didn't it?

red tape, i'm sure.

[Bacchus39]

132. the Chavez administration sure is vociferously denying it

note that they are denying the existence of the evidence, rather than say the argument put forth here that the arms were bought before Hugo's time and must have been provided pre-Chavez.

http://english.eluniversal.com/2009/07/27/en_pol_esp_minister-terms-medi_27A2547883.shtml

and of course, its the US's fault according to the Chavistas

http://english.eluniversal.com/2009/07/27/en_pol_esp_fm-maduro-denounces_27A2548765.shtml

[MADem]

156. The Swedes keep crummy records, then? Ah, Sweden--the 51st state!!!

:rofl:

This gets funnier and funnier.

[MADem]

152. DOH!!!!.... Damn those right wing Swedes!!!!

:rofl:

[Hannah Bell]

157. "Three launchers were recovered in October...and Colombia only recently asked Sweden to confirm

whether they had been sold to Venezuela, a senior Colombian official told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to discuss the matter."

[MADem]

162. And your point is.....????

The Swedes aren't saying when they were contacted, for whatever that's worth: http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/International/nyhetssidor/artikel.asp?ProgramID=2054&format=1&artikel=2993206

But they were contacted, and they say they sold those weapons to VZ.

[Hannah Bell]

170. my point is exactly as stated. vz gov waited 9 months, for some reason,

to even ask the question.

& apparently no officious military stores-keeper notified sweden of the missing 20-year old rocket launchers when they were taken off the well-inventoried shelves, either.

despite the important "end-user" agreement, lol.

[Bacchus39]

172. Colombia will release the info when its convenient to them, not to you

I bet Colombia has a vast amount of info on Chavez and the FARC. just a few days ago Colombia released a video from the FARC number 2 guy lamenting the loss of sensitive FARC activities and stating that the contributed to Rafael Correa's campaign.

[Hannah Bell]

188. Colombian GDP (2008): $249.8 billion; base year 2000: $93.7 billion.

US foreign aid for Plan Colombia = 1 billion in 2000 = 1+% of Colombia's GDP.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/3954.pdf

& growing every year since.


Oh, they have a *video*??? Video of No. 2, you say?


Is it anything like the videos of Osama's No. 2?

the one we killed 9 times?

[Bacchus39]

201. yes, I know of the US aid to Colombia, and how is that relevant to

Colombia revealing the info on Venezuela and Ecuador?? don't fight it. Chavez is helping and/or has helped the FARC.

[MADem]

174. Yes--that would be an "officious military stores(sic)-keeper" from .... VENEZUELA.

Who knew the items were missing, and didn't tell anyone.

How special is that.

The point you don't realize that you're making, is that the GoV knew, and didn't tell.

That's not the act of an innocent party. That's why the Swedes want answers.

[Truth Talks]

180. THREAD SUMMARY

For any visitors who don't want to spend an hour wading through endless arguments and non-arguments, let me attempt to summarize this thread:

Sweden sold some rocket launchers to Venezuela many years ago. The Associated Press publicized Colombia's claim that it found some of the rocket launchers in the hands of FARC rebels. That's pretty much it.

The debate centers largely on credibility, pitting Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez - who might be described as the leader of Latin America's socialist movement - against Colombia's right-wing president, Uribe. The timing is also worth noting: The U.S. is in the process of sending more troops to Colombia, where it is expanding a military base after being kicked out of Ecuador (a Chavez ally). Some also suspect the U.S. is involved with a military coup in Honduras.

Also, don't miss the story about Colombia's claim that it found a laptop computer with sensitive files incriminating Hugo Chavez. As I recall, the laptop was reportedly discovered when Colombia launched a military attack in neighboring Ecuador.

[MADem]

189. You mean when Columbia launched a military attack * against a FARC stronghold* in Ecuador.

Your last sentence makes it sound like Columbia was attacking Ecuador. They were violating Ecuador's sovereign territory, but they were not attacking Ecuador's military in any way.

[Name removed]

195. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dipsydoodle]

235. Correa exactly didn't view the matter in those terms

and he's the person who counts.

[MADem]

266. I won't argue with that, but the intent, I think, was pretty clear. nt

[struggle4progress]

194. Sweden Asks Venezuela for Information on FARC Weapons, AFP Says

By Steven Bodzin

July 27 (Bloomberg) -- Sweden’s government requested information from Venezuela about how Colombian guerrillas may have gotten Swedish-made weapons, Agence France-Presse reported, citing Jens Eriksson, political adviser to Sweden’s Ministry of Commerce.

The Scandinavian country confirmed that the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, had Swedish weapons and no Swedish company had permits to sell to Colombia, the news agency said ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aUzsMoVN0ESk


FARC armed with Swedish weapons

Colombia's biggest rebel group FARC is armed with Swedish-made rocket launchers, several media report. President Alvaro Uribe calls on weapon manufacturing countries to prevent arms ending up in FARC hands.

Colombian army discovered AT-4 weapons manufactured by the Swedish company Saab Bofors Dynamics on FARC bases one year ago.

Questioned on this matter, the Swedish weaponry company assured that it sold the rocket launchers to the Venezuelan army ...

http://colombiareports.com/colombia-news/news/5171-farc-armed-with-swedish-weapons.html



27/07/2009
Swedish Weapons in FARC Hands

... The weapons were found in 2008 when the Colombian army took a guerrilla stronghold. The Colombian authorities contacted the manufacturer Saab Bofors Dynamics, in Sweden, to trace the weapons. At Bofors they could identify the weapons as belonging to a shipment delivered to Venezuela in the 1980s ... http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/International/nyhetssidor/artikel.asp?ProgramID=2054&format=1&artikel=2993206


The international black market in weapons is populated by vicious thugs who make the drug mafia look like the Saintly Angels Children's Choir. Nobody's ever going to know whether these are just some surplus production that the manufacturer incorrectly shipped, whether they disappeared from cases bound for 1980s Venezuela, or whether somebody took them off a military base in exchange for a handful of cash or a few nights with a high-end hooker

[bitchkitty]

202. Smells like bull shit to me.

But as usual, our right wing contingent will jump on board.

[clixtox]

252. "Right wing contingent" doesn't explain someone who...

posts over a hundred times in one thread to maintain a supposition without any corroborating facts.

I asked for a link to support her allegation that Hugo Chavez was "caught red handed".

The link she offered... Was a link to this thread!

No respect... Not for the truth, or respect for the others who post here on DU.

Obsessive/compulsive and inane bullying get a bit stale long before a 100 posts.

I finally grew tired of baiting this sad coward, hiding behind a alias while being ridiculous.

[Truth Talks]

203. Venezuela + Colombia + Sweden...and Afghanistan???

Ah, the plot thickens. It seems Colombia's right-wing government is going to help Uncle Obama by sending American-trained troops to Afghanistan. Well, ain't that special.

Colombia To Aid U.S. In Taliban Fight

(Check out the subtitle: "Battle-tested Colombian Commandoes Headed to Afghanistan after Defeating Terrorists in their own Country" If FARC has been defeated, shouldn't that be BREAKING NEWS???)

DU Thread

[Hannah Bell]

206. god, didn't you hear! Chavez gave farc a cache of three 20-year old rocket launchers!!!

they'll be able to take *bogota* with that firepower!

a new lease on life for them...

and man, let me tell you, the swedes are pissed!

they take their end-user agreements seriously, dad-gum it.

[AlphaCentauri]

211. Serial Number SVC-1991-A2938

how do they track their stock of weapons by serial numbers or by assumptions?

[subsuelo]

227. remember when Saddam was so determined to get a nuclear bomb?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.irq.powell.transcript.03/index.html">CNN Transcript

(Coli Powell) "Let me set the stage with three key points that all of us need to keep in mind: First, Saddam Hussein has used these horrific weapons on another country and on his own people. In fact, in the history of chemical warfare, no country has had more battlefield experience with chemical weapons since World War I than Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Second, as with biological weapons, Saddam Hussein has never accounted for vast amounts of chemical weaponry: 550 artillery shells with mustard, 30,000 empty munitions and enough precursors to increase his stockpile to as much as 500 tons of chemical agents. If we consider just one category of missing weaponry -- 6,500 bombs from the Iran-Iraq war -- UNMOVIC says the amount of chemical agent in them would be in the order of 1,000 tons. These quantities of chemical weapons are now unaccounted for.

Dr. Blix has quipped that, quote, "Mustard gas is not (inaudible) You are supposed to know what you did with it."

We believe Saddam Hussein knows what he did with it, and he has not come clean with the international community. We have evidence these weapons existed. What we don't have is evidence from Iraq that they have been destroyed or where they are. That is what we are still waiting for.

Third point, Iraq's record on chemical weapons is replete with lies. It took years for Iraq to finally admit that it had produced four tons of the deadly nerve agent, VX. A single drop of VX on the skin will kill in minutes. Four tons.

...

Saddam Hussein already possesses two out of the three key components needed to build a nuclear bomb. He has a cadre of nuclear scientists with the expertise, and he has a bomb design.

Since 1998, his efforts to reconstitute his nuclear program have been focused on acquiring the third and last component, sufficient fissile material to produce a nuclear explosion. To make the fissile material, he needs to develop an ability to enrich uranium.

Saddam Hussein is determined to get his hands on a nuclear bomb.

He is so determined that he has made repeated covert attempts to acquire high-specification aluminum tubes from 11 different countries, even after inspections resumed. "

[Nevernose]

232. Corruption in a South American military?

Who'd have thought such things were possible? Personally, I blame (circle at least one) the CIA/Hugo Chavez/The Swedish/corrupt military officials/the Colombians/FARC/organized crime.

[ProudDad]

238. Viva Chavez - Death to the USAmerikan Imperial Puppets in Columbia! (n/t)

[pooplord420]

239. Good

FARK is fighting for the people of Colombia. The more resources they have, the better.

[rabs]

245. Venezuela freezes diplomatic relations with Colombia, recalls its ambassador

This was announced couple hours ago in Caracas.

Cross-posting below from Latin American forum

----------------------
-- all economic treaties with Colombia to be reviewed

-- this is result of uribe and others blaming the Venezuelan armed forces of the alleged handing-over of weapons to the FARC

-- lowest ranking diplomat will be left in charge of the Ven. embassy in Bogota

-- warned that the next verbal or other accusation against Venezuela "we will break relations with Colombia. We are prepared for that."

-- Economic trade with Colombia is suspended. Imports from Colombia will be replaced by imports from Brazil.

-- said the Colombian government is "shameful" and run by the "most irresponsible (persons) that I have ever seen."

Full story on link below (Spanish)

TeleSUR _ Hace: 47 minutos
El presidente de Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, anunció este martes el congelamiento de las relaciones con Colombia, el retiro de su embajador de Bogotá y la revisión de los acuerdos económicos, como consecuencia de las acusaciones hechas por su homólogo, Álvaro Uribe, y otros altos funcionarios de su Ejecutivo, sobre una supuesta entrega de armamento del Ejército venezolano a las Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC).

"Vamos a retirar al embajador y vamos a dejar al funcionario (diplomático) de más bajo cargo", reiteró Chávez, al tiempo que advirtió que la próxima declaración verbal o de otro tipo contra Venezuela "rompemos relaciones con Colombia. Estemos preparados para eso".

Asimismo, informó que "vamos a congelar las relaciones económicas y sustituir las importaciones que no son imprescindibles para nosotros, porque podemos obtenerlas de Brasil. Si es que Colombia cree que dependemos de esas exportaciones, están equivocados".

Encomendó al vicepresidente de la nación, Ramón Carrizález, de revisar todo las inversiones con Colombia. "Pudiéramos cerrar el gasoducto, reducir las importaciones mientras evaluamos el tema de la Embajada" de Colombia en Venezuela.

Añadió que "este gobierno da vergüenza, está dirigido por irresponsables de la más grande calaña que yo haya conocido. Esto es lamentable".

http://www.telesurtv.net/noticias/secciones/nota/54845-NN/venezuela-congela-relaciones-con-colombia-y-ordena-reitro-de-su-embajador/

[Odin2005]

248. Nevermind...