Substance abuse expert regrets raising drinking age

[Newsjock]

Source: Los Angeles Times

One of the people who was instrumental in pushing for laws to increase the legal drinking age to 21 now calls his actions "the single most regrettable decision" of his career.

Dr. Morris Chafetz, a psychiatrist who was on the presidential commission in the 1980s that recommended raising the drinking age to 21, made his remarks in an editorial that he is shopping for publication and which he released to the advocacy group Choose Responsibility. Chafetz wrote the editorial to mark the 25th anniversary of the law that was signed by President Ronald Reagan on July 17, 1984.

"Legal Age 21 has not worked," Chafetz said in the piece. "To be sure, drunk driving fatalities are lower now than they were in 1982. But they are lower in all age groups. And they have declined just as much in Canada, where the age is 18 or 19, as they have in the United States."

Read more: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2009/07/underage-drinking.html

[Robb]

1. Interesting comment over there

"Lower it to 18 if they graduate high school. Issue a special liquor ID that can be revolked for any liquor violation and not renewable untill they turn 21. Kind of a learners permit for booze."

Food for thought.

[Gormy Cuss]

4. I had a liquor ID back in the Stone Age.

It was a picture ID back when driver's licenses generally didn't have photos. It was a big deal to be able to buy liquor legally and very few of my friends were binge drinkers. We did drink illegally in high school but so do kids today -- in fact, many are drinking in middle school.

At 18 most of us were out of high school and working or going to college and some even were MARRIED. IMHO it's a bit absurd to hold out 21 as the legal age.

[sofa king]

32. It's the college kids we have to worry about.

What has happened is that all the substance abuse noise our schools put out is actually working--until the kids get out of high school and start thinking for themselves. It doesn't take long for them to realize that most of what they've been told is bullshit scare tactics, and then they enter the experimentation phase, as legal adults, liable for every mistake they make while they're wasted, armed to the teeth with guns, cell phones, no condoms, and the old family car.

Binge drinking, which goes hand in hand with experimentation, has been steadily on the rise since Nancy Reagan, and now it reaches its peak between the ages of 18 and 21--the college years. Why? Because as soon as they become adults, the first thing young Americans do is go out and try all the things they were prevented from learning about at home. Doing so also fosters an unhealthy contempt for the rule of law and, once they're thrown into the courts, they quickly learn that money, not guilt or innocence, is what puts people in prison or sets them free. In other words, kids are learning at an early age to act like Republicans.

[Gormy Cuss]

33. I think the extended binge drinking phenom is a direct result of treating adults like children.

The experimentation age is still high school or younger. Binge drinking among high school students is rampant, same as it was when the legal age was 18.

What we've done by increasing the drinking age to 21 is to extend that binge mindset for three more years and as you pointed out, to a time when young people are less subject to parental scrutiny. It's utterly stupid policy.

[azmouse]

2. If someone is considered an adult at 18,

that should come with full rights including the right to drink alcohol.

[AllyCat]

7. Agreed. You can go to war and fight and die for your country, you can get married

you can have children, buy a house, vote, etc...but alcohol may not pass your lips unless you are 21. It's just stupid and interesting to see that it's not worked.

[musette_sf]

3. 18 is right

the Feds tied highway money to the "age 21" crap, if the state didn't up the drinking age then no highway money from the Feds.

keeping the drinking age at 21 causes more binge drinking and dangerous behavior with liquor.

[8 track mind]

6. thats why oklahoma always

had bad roads. We used to go across the red river and buy beer because the drinking age was 18 at the time

[bertman]

5. When I was 20 and on my leave before going to Vietnam, I and a buddy tried to get

in the Playboy Club in Atlanta. We were denied entry because we weren't "of legal age".

Old enough to kill and to die, but not old enough to drink.

Don't get me started on how fucked up this is.

Oh, and by the way, we were able to drink anyway by getting our friends to buy alcoholic beverages for us.

[Lasher]

47. And you probably weren't old enough to vote either.

That really sucked. Then along came the 26th Amendment in July 1971. Now at least you can vote if you're old enough to kill and die. We need another Amendment that provides full adult status in every respect at age 18.

[provis99]

8. well there are entire counties in the South where no one can drink

because what the 21 year old drinking age is really about, is part of the slippery slope towards banning all alcohol, because of a bunch of Southern fundamentalist dingbats.

[Aragorn]

9. plus

it is a revenue stream (unless you are "family").

[DatManFromNawlins]

11. There was an entire STATE where the drinking age was 18

Until Bill Clinton decided he was going to withhold highway funds unless Louisiana raised the drinking age to 21.

[ieoeja]

19. That was Reagan in '84. Not Clinton in '94. n/t

[Sgent]

21. Nope it was Clinton

LA made it illegal for an 18-21 yo to buy in 1987 -- but possession and selling to a 18-21 was legal. This effectively meant the drinking age was 18.

The Clinton administration forced them to change it in 1995.

[ieoeja]

22. You mean Clinton expanded upon a Reagan policy? Shocking!

That was a weird workaround by Lousiana. Kudos to the state while it worked!

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. Louisiana also has drive-through liquor stores that sell mixed drinks.

[Maine-ah]

25. I live in a dry town

and the next town over is a dry town. In the south dry towns & counties are declining.

[rd_kent]

28. How is that legal? On what basis is that a law?

I know that dry and blue-laws have been on the books, but how have they not been challenged as unconstitutional?

[SoCalDem]

34. When we lived in Indiana, you could not even buy cooking sherry, vanilla or cough meds on Sunday

the alcohol aisle had a chain-mail curatin fropm top top bottom, locked to the floor.. I found this out by accident when I tried to bake a cake on a Sunday, and ended up begging vanilla from a neighbor :rofl:

[rd_kent]

37. What is the basis for that?

[SoCalDem]

Sunday was God's day..no alcohol sold on Sundays

It was like that in some places in Kansas too..Blue laws..
I guess they thought people would drink Vanilla or cough syrup, so they threw it in as well.. I only found out about it because vanilla was not with the spices & baking stuff. The clerk said, it's with the wine & beer, but you can;t buy it today:(

from wiki :

is a type of law, typically found in the United States, designed to enforce religious standards, particularly the observance of Sunday as a day of worship or rest, and a restriction on Sunday shopping. Most have been repealed, have been declared unconstitutional, or are simply unenforced, although prohibitions on the sale of alcoholic beverages, and occasionally almost all commerce, on Sundays are still enforced in many areas. Blue laws often prohibit an activity only during certain hours and there are usually exceptions to the prohibition of commerce, like grocery and drug stores. In some places blue laws may be enforced due to religious principles, but others are retained as a matter of tradition or out of convenience.<1>

Laws of this type are also found in non-Christian cultures such as Israel, where the day concerned is Saturday rather than Sunday, and Saudi Arabia, where the month of Ramadan is involved.<2>

[rd_kent]

41. But that is my point, its unconstitutional

why havent these laws been challenged?

[SoCalDem]

45. They may have.. we don;t live there anymore, and it was a while back

:)

[AngryAmish]

36. 21st Amendment

"Section 2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited."

There has to be an enabling law by the State to allow liquor. All there has to be is a rational basis for a law, and the rational basis for outlawing liquor is drunk driving, spousal abuse, anything.

So if the state says towns can make themselves dry if they want then it is legal.

[rd_kent]

38. Okay, I see how "dry" cities work

but what about no sales on Sunday? What is that basis?

[AngryAmish]

40. Who knows

It can be anything. Might not stand up to a suit but it might - say it gives families a "day off" from liquor or gives drunks a day to sober up.

[bamacrat]

44. I have lived all 26 years of my life in Alabama

The county i grew up in was dry, as was the county to the east west and south. Living 5 minutes from Huntsville saved us an hour drive to Warrior which is the only other place to but it right before you get to Birmingham. The major city in our county went "wet" in the early 90s, and has grown...shocking I know. Huntsville expanded to selling alcohol on Sundays just about 10 years ago or so. But yeah most of the place down here is dry.

[The Straight Story]

48. You mean the same fundies that want to ban smoking, guns, etc?

Oh wait....

[Piewhacket]

10. Another comatose repuke whackout has an 'ephiphany'.

while trying to shop a 'paper'. His credibility is shot.

I remember Michigan had just lowered the age to 18 when I lived there,
admittedly all hell broke loose for a bit, then settled down.

The world didn't end. Then the next year or so the Reganistas tromped in
guns blazing with a bunch of fabricated statistics that meant the
opposite of what people like this idiot Dr. Morris Chafetz imagined.

Hes a political hack, not a scientist, a political hack, not a psychiatrist,
a political hack with a now convenient 'ephiphany' trying to reinvent himself
from the scum-sucking republif* he has been all his life...

To the oubliette with his worthless hide, before he stupids again.

[ovidsen]

12. New York State drinking age was 18 from 1933 to 1982

That was 18 for everything. Beer, wine, whiskey, whatever. Resident or non resident. Just show an ID (if you were asked) and drink up.

But then MADD, backed by the neo-prohibitionist crowd, and CONGRESS forced the state to raise it to 21.

Any state with a drinking age lower than 21 that refused to raise the minimum was threatened with denial of federal highway funds.

A very powerful, but in my opinion a very unconstitutional violation of state's rights.

[regnaD kciN]

14. I wished the M.A.D.D. crusaders would just go fuck themselves...

I lived in Europe for many years, where kids were allowed to have wine at meals with their parents from a very young age. There was far less of a "drinking problem" than here in the U.S., because it wasn't a "forbidden fruit." The notion of teens using a fake I.D. to get liquor, and then holding "keggers" where the whole purpose was to get drunk, would have been nonsensical to them, as would binge drinking in college.

But the M.A.D.D. morons, wrapped up in their cloak of self-righteous certainty, would brook no obstacles to their crusade. Even today, you still see public service announcements, with their pompous tone of unquestionable authority, warning parents that "the sooner a child starts consuming alcohol, the greater their chances of developing a drinking problem"...which is exactly the opposite when the parents are supervising the use of alcohol, and it is accepted as a common element of family meals rather than an opportunity to "get blitzed." But, while there had been a tacit acceptance of that kind of "in the family" drinking beforehand (why, I could even get served wine when out to dinner with my folks even when I was 14!), the M.A.D.D. missionaries clamped down the "zero tolerance" bullshit and even started encouraging authorities to take children from parents who allowed them but a sip of wine or beer before they turned 21.

And, of course, M.A.D.D. became the epitome of an "accepted by all" charity, so no one dared say that they were anything other than selfless saints protecting our children from a fate worse than death. Suggesting that their movement was anything other than wise and just would be tantamount to publicizing an endorsement from NAMBLA. Want to score easy political points? Make a big public embrace of M.A.D.D.'s founder and swear fealty to the group's entire agenda. (And, remember, part of that agenda involved "drunk driver" roadblocks where, according to the original plan, police could not only check anyone for signs of intoxication, but also search their vehicles and prosecute them for anything found there. Not just alcohol or drugs, say, but you could technically be busted -- if the police really wanted to get you -- for having a "mix-tape" cassette you had made at home; copyright violation is a felony, don't you know? Is it any reason the police, prosecutors, and those who wanted to shred the Bill of Rights just loved the M.A.D.D. maniacs?)

:grr:

[AngryAmish]

17. About Europe's lack of teenage drinking problems

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8157725.stm>

Of course it is nonsense that Europe and the US have materially different problems with teenagers/young adults and alcohol. Until we change our genes people will be the same. Young people drink, sometimes to excess, no matter where - except those places where it is totally illegal like Saudi Arabia (which they still do but the rate is much less than here)

Anyway, everything else I agree with.

[Mojorabbit]

23. I despise MADD

and hold them accountable for supporting and advocating for police checkpoints. I one thousand percent agree with your post.

[B3Nut]

26. M.A.D.D. and D.A.R.E. both...

M.A.D.D. had an honorable enough start and cause in the beginning, but it has long since been hijacked by the neo-prohibitionist lunatics. Both organizations are inimical to civil liberties and the implementation of sane, rational solutions to substance abuse and the long-overdue legalization of cannabis. The founder of M.A.D.D. now works for a spirits-industry lobbying concern, ironically enough. Both organizations today are mere tools of witless authoritarians who serve rational society no useful purpose whatsoever.

[Lance_Boyle]

39. fyi, copyright violation is a tort, not criminal, violation n/t

[meow2u3]

18. I was living in New York when I turned 18

That's the age I started drinking because I like the taste of red wine. My doctor, not just my parents, supervised my alcohol use, mainly because I was taking medications that, mixed with alcohol, would have killed me at worst, or at best caused me to pass out.

[fujiyama]

13. It hasn't served a purpose

I don't think it's really cut down on alcohol related fatalities and we all know how big a problem binge drinking is on campuses.

A graduated scheme like they do for drivers licenses in many states may be one way to go if you don't want to go all out and lower the drinking age. Or you could have restrictions on what sort of beverages can be consumed until the age (only beer and wine perhaps).

Though, both restrictions may be unnecessary and be more problematic than its worth. Maybe it is just better to lower it altogether.

[Odin2005]

15. He's just now realizing he was used as a tool by the puritanical MADD prohibitionists?

It was never about safety, that was merely the excuse the neo-prohibitionists needed to push their agenda.

[ieoeja]

20. And the insurance companies. But not for the reason you'd think.

I interviewed for a computer job with an insurance data processor and lobbyist organization in the mid '80s. When informed the majority of their lobbying efforts were aimed at drinking & driving, I naively supposed this was to cut down on accidents and therefore payments.

Not so, I was told. In fact, their statisticians could only blame about 5% of fatalities on drunk driving. To get the 50% figure then tossed out as accepted fact, they had to ignore all other conditions: fault, weather, traffic, time of day, age, gender, health, etc.

The real reason they lobbied so heavily against drunk driving was two-fold.

1. Demonizing drunk driving led to people viewing higher rates as part of the punishment for drunk driving. So consumer groups stopped protesting those rates, and states with regulated rates passed exemptions to those regulations vis-a-vis drunk drivers.

2. Ever lowering the threshold and increasing enforcement means more people will end up on those higher rates. Sure, Allstate, State Farm, etc is going to dump you altogether so you then have to sign up with ABC Auto Insurance. But since ABC is a wholly owned subsidiary of the big boys....


The money for extra police working overtime on holiday crackdowns is typically donated to the states by the insurance lobby.

[Lasher]

49. Very interesting.

And sinister. Thanks for the insight.

[Vidar]

16. I'm glad to hear this. Fortuitously for me, Michigan lowered the

drinking age to 18 when I was 17 & raised it back to 32 when I turned 22. Nonetheless this is when 18 year olds were drafted & dying in Vietnam. There should only be one age of majority & prohibition doesn't work.

[mikeytherat]

24. I was just turning 18 when this went happened, and here in Virginia they grandfathered 18 year olds

for beer only. Yes, you read that right. At 18 I could get into a club, and order a pitcher of beer for myself, but no f**king way could I have a vodka tonic. Clubs and bars used two different colored hand stamps: red for us 18-20 year-olds and green for those 21+. Thank God no one ever got drunk on beer and beer alone.

What a stupid system.

mikey_the_rat

[XemaSab]

27. And here in California multiple teenagers have died from binge drinking this year...

This prohibitionist attitude just creates an atmosphere where kids go to a party and instead of getting a nice buzz on with a couple of beers, the kids just pound hard liquor with the goal of getting totally trashed as quickly as possible.

It's sad that that's considered a good time, and this is from someone who likes her beverages. ;)

[laureloak]

29. It's the insane punishment that's wrong. Lifelong criminal record.

for alcohol reading higher than 0 or simply having alcohol in your vehicle and not comsuming any. Jail time for multiple offenses.

Zero tolerance is insane shit. How is it possible to expect anyone to never make a mistake?

But it's also a cash cow for cities ($150), lawyers($400), alcohol assessment centers($160), community service organizations($200). Young people are easy pickings. Their parents scape the bottom of the barrel to pay for legal fees to help give their child a clean start. It's a scam, a legal raping of 19-20 year olds.

[newscott]

30. Man did I ever get screwed over by this guy!!!!

I was 17 going on 18 in college in CT when they raised the age to 19!!!!!!

Then I was 18 going on 19 when they raised the AGAIN to 21!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[comtec]

31. In Europe it's 16 for "soft" drinks

18 for harder, and 21 for hard alcohol.

at 16 you are allowed 4% and lower

18 you are allowed to like 20% and lower

at 21 you can have vodka straight from mother Russia

This imho, system makes alot more sense.

However since public transportation for students (up to 28) is F R E E your incidents of drunk driving are MUCH lower!

There are also very good programs in place for BOBs (designated driver) here that make being the sober one palatable.

Also a lot of kids get wasted early on at home, so they learn to respect alcohol, at least as far as driving... in general.

anyway that's how it is here in clog land.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. There isn't 1 rule for Europe

Eash country makes its own. For instance, in Britain:

Children under 16 can go anywhere in a pub as long as they are supervised by an adult, but cannot have any alcoholic drinks.
...
Young people aged 16 or 17 can drink beer, wine or cider with a meal if it is bought by an adult and they are accompanied by an adult. It is illegal for this age group to drink spirits in pubs even with a meal.

In Scotland, 16 and 17 year olds can buy beer, wine or cider so long as it's served with a meal and consumed in an area used solely for eating meals.

It is against the law for anyone under 18 to buy alcohol in a pub, off-licence, supermarket, or other outlet, or for anyone to buy alcohol for someone under 18 to consume in a pub or a public place.

http://www.youthinformation.com/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=92124

There is no distinction about the age of 21; you can legally buy spirits at 18 in Britain.

public transportation for students (up to 28) is F R E E

Again, that will depend on the country. That's not 'Europe', it's one or more countries in Europe.

And as another example, France:

The government of President Nicolas Sarkozy has drafted the bill, which would raise France's minimum drinking age for wine and beer to 18 from 16. The government says it would reduce a dangerous addiction among youths. A vote on the bill is expected to take place Wednesday at the National Assembly, where it is likely to pass, as Mr. Sarkozy's center-right coalition has a majority of the votes. A final vote in the Senate could take place in April.
...
France has had a liberal approach to alcohol thus far. Unlike most other countries, France has two drinking ages: Young people can drink or purchase wine and beer from the age of 16 and hard liquor from 18.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123716667064336421.html

'Clog land' = the Netherlands?

[comtec]

46. you're right. I apologize

in general it's 16 for most of Europe tho.
The attitude towards alcohol and such is better than in the us.

sorry, I'm less than in love with my new country. They tend to treat us allochtonen less than great - at least politically.
I certainly have become more sympathetic to the immigrant cause in the US.

cloggies is a term we ex-pats use to describe the dutch, hence clog-land. It can be as much or as little derogatory as you like lol.

But that aside, this place is growing on me, much like a fine fungus, creeping up and in...

[JBoy]

35. In Ontario, they raised the drinking age from 18 to 19. When I was 17.

Fuck, was I pissed.