Kucinich Renews Call for Afghan Withdrawal After Botched Airstrike

[Hissyspit]

Source: Raw Story / Office of Dennis Kucinich

Kucinich renews call for Afghan withdrawal after botched airstrike

BY MURIEL KANE

Published: September 4, 2009
Updated 42 minutes ago

In a Friday press release, Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) condemned a NATO airstrike which killed 95 people, including much of the population of a small Afghan village, and renewed his call for the United States to withdraw its forces from both Afghanistan and Iraq.

“News reports covering today’s attack by the U.S. command southwest of Kunduz province show that the good intentions of NATO forces in Afghanistan are not sufficient,” Kucinich stated. “If we want to avoid killing innocent civilians, we must end the war.”

- snip -

According to the independent, “Western forces were engulfed in bitter controversy yesterday” as the extent of the carnage became apparent. “Nato initially insisted that all the dead were Taliban insurgents. Later, after angry protests from local residents and officials, they acknowledged there had been civilian deaths.”

- snip -

Kucinich’s press release concludes, “There is little hope for a truly independent investigation because the Karzai Government is compromised and NATO forces are digging in for the long term based on the Administration’s policy. The war in Afghanistan is quickly developing into a tragedy of monumental proportions. It is time for the U.S. to end this war and bring our troops home.”

Read more: http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/04/kucinich-renews-call-for-afghan-withdrawal-after-botched-airstrike

[msongs]

1. Obama's wars are not going well. the military's job is to KILL people btw nt

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

74. Well, frankly, it is not. The job is to defeat, which means taking the area, not killing. And

most decidedly not indiscriminate killing of whoever is in your sights. Ever heard of "capturing the enemy"?

[Amos Moses]

76. You don't go into battle to capture people.

[Hissyspit]

2. Unrecommenders all for killing civilians?

Yay for hypocrisy.

[QC]

5. Anything that is not rapturous praise of Dear Leader gets gang-unrecced.

That's just the way things are done now.

It's gotten so that a negative rating is a sure sign that something is worth reading.

[wroberts189]

12. I like him and I recd this :) nt

[Ken Burch]

17. Same here

n/t.

[Moochy]

49. Agreed

Let's see what's bothering the uberpartisans today!

[bvar22]

62. Agree.

I now scroll GD looking for <0 to find the stuff worth reading.

[Martin Eden]

66. Are you from North Korea?

I ask because "Dear Leader" is the term North Koreans are indoctrinated to call the dictator of that totalitarian communist regime. Maybe you applied that term as a matter of habit, rather than consciously using it to slander the President of the United States and those who still support him.

Of course, since you have more than 1,000 posts at DU my question falls under the category of sarcasm rather than an indication I think you may actually be from North Korea.

[QC]

68. No, but sometimes I come here and feel like I have been magically transported to NK,

given all the delirious worship of political figures (well, one figure) that we now see here.

You've been here almost as long as I have--surely you remember that time when we were at least somewhat into issues here, rather than just personalities.

[Martin Eden]

115. I've never liked sweeping generalizations or broad-brush put-downs

Granted: In an online community that has grown as large as DU you're going to come across some who are blinded by their admiration for a personality like Obama, but I think it is unfair and inaccurate to characterize all who support him as worshippers who must ignore the issues to maintain that worship.

I called you out on the "Dear Leader" appellation because I have seen it used so many times by RWers in open political forums as a broad-brush insult against Democrats and progressives in general. In my experience over the last several months, it is a term used by Freeper-types.

Personally I have lost considerable confidence in Obama, but I am not yet ready to declare his presidency a failure. This battle over health care is not over, and I think any president with a chance of being elected in 2008 would have tried to salvage Afghanistan before giving up on it. The consequences of letting the Taliban retake that country are unknown, and potentially dangerous. Yes, we need to know what success in Afghanistan consists of, how it is to be measured, and there has to be an endgame within this presidential term. But just like Obama's presidency, I think it is too soon for abandonment.

[QC]

118. It certainly would be unfair to make such a generalization, which is why I did not.

Supporting the president is something we all should do. I voted for him (was one of the first people in the country to do so, actually, since Florida has early voting) and still hope that he will remember who put him in office and turn things around.

For some people here, however, any thread that is critical of some government policy or action is an attack on Obama himself and therefore must not be seen. It never fails that such threads get gang-unrecced in an attempt to ensure that they never appear on the Greatest Page.

That's just plain silly, and not a little weird, and that's what I was complaining about.

[Martin Eden]

120. OK, thanks for the clarification

I too disagree with what you just described.

[Umbral]

88. And I thought if was from an episode of The Simpsons...

Wait, the animation for The Simpsons is done in South Korea, Conspiracy! Conspiracy! Matt Groening is a Leader loving communist!

[treestar]

111. Were you this hard on Clinton?

There is so much Obama hatred on DU that it brings this question to mind.

Why are you a Democrat?

[QC]

117. I'm a Democrat because I believe that government should work for the benefit of,

and be accountable to, the common people.

That's why I can't help but be angry at much of what we are seeing from this Democratic administration.

I was disgusted with Clinton for the same reason as Obama, namely his tendency to sell out his own party in hopes of making the opposition like him. Clinton had a really bad case of that, but I think Obama might have him beat.

Why are you a Democrat? It doesn't seem to be because of anything having to do with principles or policies or anything like that. In your case it seems to be purely a matter of your peculiarly intense personal identification with a politician.

Fanboyism, in other words. And that is precisely what I was talking about in the comment that you found so offensive. It must have hit a nerve, and rightly so.

[treestar]

123. You argue like a Repuke

And i have a lot of experience with that.

We aren't fanboys, that's just name calling, just like a repuke does.

which raises a certain suspicion.

I used to think the far left better than the far right. That they were just far ahead of the body politic.

Either this on Du are trolls, in which I can continue that comfortable belief. If not, I am forced to concede that the far left is just as unreasonable as the far right. Name calling, delusional and unable to reason.

[New Dawn]

121. Yes, that is the DLC way.

And when they are not killing civilians with bombs, they kill them with privatized "health care" or homelessness.

[polly7]

3. Absolutely

End it all NOW. I'm so sick of these 'botched airstrikes'. If they happened in NA they'd be called murder. Yet we hear nothing of the victims ..... here, 'they're' just collateral damage .... it's gotten way beyond a sad result of 'war'. When Viagra is handed out to the warlords we're supposedly trying to stop to take home for their child wives, it's obvious the 'people' aren't high on the priority list anyway.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

4. Greg Mortenson in "Three Cups of Tea"

shows us how it's done - BUILD SCHOOLS!

[OwnedByFerrets]

91. Pushed as a solution by Thom all the time.

[pleah]

6. K&R

[midnight]

7. I'm tired of all the killing. Let's bring them home.

[DesertFlower]

16. i agree. nt

[sasquuatch55]

54. Recommend.

nt

[lyonn]

8. Bill Moyers, Michael Ware and many other smart people say no

to continuing the fighting in Afghanistan. Just finished watching a repeat of Mahrs' shows with both Moyers and Ware as guests. Eight years of war is WAY to many years especially since one was based on lies and the other has now become a lie. Osama who??
recommend...

[wroberts189]

11. +1 also they all need to watch Rambo 3 again. nt

[slipslidingaway]

9. knr #14 n/t

[wroberts189]

10. In my dictionary bravery shows a picture of Dennis K. nt

[laststeamtrain]

14. K & R - n/t.

[windoe]

15. K & R for Dennis for staying on message.

After healthcare reform, time to end the wars.

[Mari333]

37. end the 'wars' (occupations) and you will have the money for healthcare reform. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

45. +1 nt

[Paper Roses]

82. Exactly! We've been saying this all along. Why is it our job to go

to war with everyone with whom we disagree. No war, plenty of $$$ for needs at home. Not just health-care, which is imperative, but also things like roads, schools, ad infinitum.

What have we become? Neglect things at home and bomb everyone we think might be a bad guy. It is none of our business to police the world. Wasn't that the job(supposedly) of the UN?

[earcandle]

103. Yup!

[ArcticFox]

18. KILL KILL KILL

No really, it's a tragedy we're even over there in the first place. I mean, maybe I could understand the first couple months trying to find Bin Laden (if he's even responsible for 9/11), but after that we should have admitted failure and left.

Does anyone really believe this "war" is anything but a sham? WWII proved that if we really wanted to accomplish a victory, even the dreaded Nazis could be wiped out in less time than we've been in Afganistan.

Bring the boys back home. Go Kucinich. Recommend.

[WinkyDink]

75. Don't forget the jumping up and down.

[winyanstaz]

19. And once again..it is Dennis kucinich that speaks out ....

dang I love this man...a true patriot and a blessing for America..

[earcandle]

105. I second that emotion!

[ArcticFox]

20. And by the way . . .

What kind of idiot thinks you can park a tanker truck in a poor village and NOT have it surrounded by innocent people just looking for a little free fuel? Remember that one that incinerated the town somewhere in Africa I think within the past few years?

What ever happened to putting boots on the ground? Not that we should be there in the first place, but if we're going to be there, we should at least try to minimize civilian casualties. Putting a few hundred soldiers in there might generate some friendly casualties, but at least it wouldn't turn a whole country against us.

[Alamuti Lotus]

21. What exactly is 'botched' about 'business as usual'?

A key paragraph:

According to the independent, “Western forces were engulfed in bitter controversy yesterday” as the extent of the carnage became apparent. “Nato initially insisted that all the dead were Taliban insurgents. Later, after angry protests from local residents and officials, they acknowledged there had been civilian deaths.”

Sure, that's protocol. Deny everything. Lie about it when pressed further. Quietly admit the truth when nobody believes the bullshit lie. Say that you feel really bad about it. Then prove an absence of remorse by doing the same damn thing. Repeat process as able.

[defendandprotect]

22. k i c k

[frog92969]

23. Apparently we're in a blind rage over there...

without a care for anything or anybody.

Also known as a Tantrum.

I'm still waiting for the adults to show up and tell them
it's time to stop killing the neighbors' kids in the sandbox.

[Iowa]

24. Dennis is the best. I wish he was President. n/t

[dotymed]

33. I WAS GOING TO "THROW AWAY" MY VOTE ON HIM

Until he had to withdraw and defend his Congressional seat. I
wonder who made sure that his opponent was so well financed? I
guarantee you it wasn't just the republicans....Dennis
Kucinich has proven himself to be one of the few pols (Bernie
Sanders too) who want what is best for the people and the
country.

[ShortnFiery]

34. Come 2012, if Dennis Kucinich runs for President, I'll be proud

to "waste" my vote on him. A true American patriot. :patriot:

[SammyWinstonJack]

46. Me too. nt

[sabrina 1]

83. Me too n/t

[NorthCarolina]

94. Count me in on that too n/t

[EndersDame]

101. He was my first

I turned 18 in 2004 and was happy that the first man I voted for was good ol DK

[Frank Cannon]

51. This country doesn't deserve a real man like Kucinich as President

One day, when people have had enough, turn off their TVs, and throw the fucking corporations out of the government, maybe. Right now, no.

[David Zephyr]

25. Dennis Kucinich. This is a great American.

Meanwhile, our Democratic President and his Republican Defense Secretary want to "surge" with 25,000 more troops.

Bush's third term is well in play.

[No Elephants]

29. IMO, it's a cross between Dummya's third term and Bubba's third term. But , basically, it's

a continuation of the now perennial term of big business.

[bread_and_roses]

53. Exactly. No further explication needed (n/t)

[truedelphi]

70. That is a good analysis. A weird morphing of the Bush

And Clinton regimes. Thanks for posting that.

[MissDeeds]

42. Sickening, isn't it

And a Republican Secretary of Defense. What is up with that? There were no Democrats who could do the job? Sends quite a message...or two.

[Solly Mack]

26. K&R

[Union Yes]

27. Afghan hastened the downfall of the Soviet empire. The American empire will be next to fall.

[PeaceDreamer]

28. Obama's war in Afghanistan is a complete failure

End it now.

[dotymed]

31. PEACEDREAMER, BE HONEST

The "WAR" was started by Bush. President Obama has
continued it. Either way, innocent people are dying, and it is
a travesty. One that WE can stop. I wish there was such a
thing as Activism in this country. By design, the government
and the media have become extremely adept at keeping Americans
on the emotional edge (through, "party" hatred)
without actually joining "en masse" and demanding,
what we KNOW are the right things. No more WAR (unless we are
actually defending ourselves), SINGLE PAYER UNIVERSAL HEALTH
CARE which would save us a bundle in the long run and insure
everyone (Look at all other "wealthy" countries,
Publicly Financed Elections which would make money not a
factor when we select political candidates,  a Return of our
Manufacturing Base and good paying jobs, scrap every
"Free Trade Agreement" there is. It is not FAIR
Trade, unless the playing fields are even. They will slowly
even out as Americans become third world citizens(as is
happening). If we don't regulate and control the
"system",then the "system" and those
(wealthy/elites) who own it , will control us (they do). Guess
what the next step is (was)? Concentration of wealth in the
hands of a few. The top 5% of Americans, have more wealth,
than the other 95% combined. Currently, America sucks. If we
copied the strategy of the CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, because we
are talking about our civil rights,and non-violently took to
the streets in huge numbers, for as long as it takes, then we
can have a voice and change these things.

[SammyWinstonJack]

47. Since Obama is continuing bush's war, it's his now. nt

[frylock]

64. nixon didn't start vietnam

yes, these are obama's wars now.

[PeaceDreamer]

69. It's Obama's War

Not only is Obama continuing the war, but he is ESCALATING the war. He owns it and he is responsible for the deaths.

[dotymed]

116. I AGREE

That since his election, and refusal to end the
"wars"(forced occupation of two of the poorest
nations in the world, that have OIL) President Obama now
"owns" these "wars." It is another example
of his failure to follow through on one of his campaign
promises and a failure to be compassionate and use common
sense in Afghanistan. It is so infuriating that we were so
"pumped" because President Obama made promises to
Americans that clearly appealed to them, and we anticipated
that (based on his rhetoric) he would strongly lead America to
a common sense stance on real American values. Either I
misinterpreted those "values", or "American
values" are now considered to be those brutal values of
the previous eight years.

[Amos Moses]

78. +1

[Vidar]

30. K&R

[pokercat999]

32. How long will it be before the corporate press reminds us that

DK has seen a UFO?

IMHO; having continued the use of the US military in a reckless and unrestrained manner against civilian populations in Iraq and Afghanistan, Obama is now defined as a war criminal and although his actions may not be as egregious as those of Bush the continuation of the same policies as his predecessor earns him the title and nickname "new bush".

Or how about "NBNC", which stands for New Bush No Cheney.

[Ken Burch]

57. Or till a certain troll here shows up and calls him "Moonbeam McCrazypants" again?

n/t.

[Hissyspit]

87. That was the Rethug and MSM tactic used against Jerry Brown.

[NikolaC]

35. K&R n/t

[Crowman2009]

36. This war is a waste! More than likely Bin Laden was killed in Tora Bora or died from kidney failure

and we've been chasing ghosts ever since. And videos he appeared in afterwards, were either pre-recorded before his death, or they were made by the CIA. Either way, it's time to leave!

[oct2010]

52. That is the truth but "closure" can't be dug up easily.

OBL is a fear tool being used by BHO
jmo

[juno jones]

99. In the later videos it becomes apparent that their budget wasn't

big enough to hire the same Bin Laden look-alike twice in a row to keep up the continuity.

I agree, time to leave.

[pecwae]

38. Kick and rec for Kooch. nt

[1776Forever]

39. Did you see this: C.I.A. Said to Use Outsiders (Blackwater Xe) to Put Bombs on Drones

C.I.A. Said to Use Outsiders to Put Bombs on Drones

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/us/21intel.html?_r=1&src=twt&twt=nytimes

Article Tools Sponsored By
By JAMES RISEN and MARK MAZZETTI
Published: August 20, 2009

WASHINGTON — From a secret division at its North Carolina headquarters, the company formerly known as Blackwater has assumed a role in Washington’s most important counter terrorism program: the use of remotely piloted drones to kill Al Qaeda’s leaders, according to government officials and current and former employees.

The division’s operations are carried out at hidden bases in Pakistan and Afghanistan, where the company’s contractors assemble and load Hellfire missiles and 500-pound laser-guided bombs on remotely piloted Predator aircraft, work previously performed by employees of the Central Intelligence Agency. They also provide security at the covert bases, the officials said.

The role of the company in the Predator program highlights the degree to which the C.I.A. now depends on outside contractors to perform some of the agency’s most important assignments. And it illustrates the resilience of Blackwater, now known as Xe (pronounced Zee) Services, though most people in and outside the company still refer to it as Blackwater. It has grown through government work, even as it attracted criticism and allegations of brutality in Iraq.

A spokesman for the C.I.A. declined to comment for this article........

They said that Blackwater’s direct role in these operations had sometimes led to disputes with the C.I.A. Sometimes when a Predator misses a target, agency employees accuse Blackwater of poor bomb assembly, they said. In one instance last year recounted by the employees, a 500-pound bomb dropped off a Predator before it hit the target, leading to a frantic search for the unexploded bomb in the remote Afghan-Pakistani border region. It was eventually found about 100 yards from the original target.

.............

I posted another article I saw about this last week and asked if it was still going on after CIA Director Leon E. Panetta reported this to Congress in June and said it would stop then. Has it? Anyone know if it has or was this another "mishap"?

[Bluenorthwest]

40. If Dennis were President

right now we'd not all be accessories to murder. Change we can believe in indeed. Corpses lying everywhere, Cheney on the news, GLBT people fired, Blackwater hired. What year is this again?

[truedelphi]

71. +1. n/t

[bobshin]

77. Where's that Peace Department? nt

[marasinghe]

112. +1. (n/t)

[windowpilot]

41. K and R

[joeycola]

43. How long can we nation build when we can not afford health care

to our own citizens. ?? And that is what we are indeed doing!!

[harun]

56. We get to vote for the President, but we don't get to vote for the heads of all the

think tanks in Washington, the lobbyist's, the Corporate Media, etc.

Only post WWII president with a decent foreign policy (in terms of war) was Jimmy Carter.

[chelsea0011]

44. Unless bin Laden is in the cross hairs there is no reason to be escalating

the war in Afghanistan. Out now.

[oct2010]

48. Just the sign of the times . Bushco had his Abu Graib moment . Obama's latest poll #'s may cause him

to change.

Gaza should suspend dress code order: HRW

Hamas authorities in Gaza should suspend all orders that violate personal freedoms, including imposition of an Islamic dress code for female students, Human Rights Watch said today.

Human Rights Watch has received reports from Gaza residents that since the school year opened in late August, schools have been turning away female students for not wearing a headscarf or traditional gown.


.......

"No one should be forced to wear religious clothing, including the headscarf, to receive an education" said Nadya Khalife, the women's rights researcher for the Middle East and North Africa at Human Rights Watch. "These new orders are simply arbitrary."
snip

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/09/04/83890.html

unrelated or is it time to submit and accept that "the times they are a changing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbT_qOuVQA&feature=related


like frogs in a pot

[fascisthunter]

50. That's my Guy... still have his bumpersticker on my car

there are a few really good ones working for us all.

[suzie]

86. And fortunately, they're not named Kucinich.

[fascisthunter]

92. nah... that would be impossible. You sound as if you were trying to imply

more of Kucinich would be a bad thing.

[suzie]

114. I don't think we need more untrustworthy politicians.

And Kucinich seems like one of the least trustworthy politicians in the Congress. Kucinich voted the Catholic Church anti-woman line until the day he decided to make his "play-like" run for the presidency. Then, bada bing, he changes his voting pattern overnight.

DUers can praise Kucinich to the rooftops for all his statements that they approve of. Lofty moralizing doesn't cover up actual votes as far as I'm concerned.

[fascisthunter]

119. I Think Your word is the most untrustworthy thing of insignificance I can come across

read the thread and suffer the idea that a man like Kucinich could get so much support. I know it pisses you off, and I'm glad.

[suzie]

122. It doesn't upset me that so many people are taken in by Kucinich.

I've worked for politicians that I later found to be unworthy.

What bothers me is that so many of the Kucinichites devote their time to bashing other Democratic politicians, including those who did not stand with the Catholic Church and vote for all kinds of anti-woman measures. My own blue dog representative would be trashed by Kucinichites for being the horrific blue dog that he is. I'm not always pleased with his positions, but he didn't vote for some of the most egregious anti-woman amendments that Kucinich did.

[DCKit]

55. What's more important, the German people are going to ask "to be excused" from the "war".

And the British have had enough, too.

[Kingofalldems]

58. Kick before The Disruptor shows up

to trash Kucinich.

[Aragorn]

59. wrong perspective

Remember our military wiped out the indigenous peoples of NA (OK a few survivors on reservations still) and they can do it in Afghanistan too. In fact so far the process looks the same, so eventually I'm sure we can kill them off too. It may take just as long but it's manifest destiny.

[swilton]

60. This is either a bad rerun or a bad nightmare!

:banghead:

[mike_c]

61. U.S. out of Afghanistan NOW!

:grr:

[bvar22]

63. K&R for DK and sanity.

”Unlike other candidates,
I am not funded by those corporate interests.
I owe them no loyalty,
and they have no influence over me or my policies.”

[Amos Moses]

65. Permanent War

Our permanent war economy has not been challenged by Obama and the Democratic Party. They support its destructive fury because it funds them. They validate its evil assumptions because to take them on is political suicide. They repeat the narrative of fear because it keeps us dormant. They do this because they have become weaker than the corporate forces that profit from permanent war.

The hollowness of our liberal classes, such as the Democrats, empowers the moral nihilists. A state of permanent war means the inevitable death of liberalism. Dick Cheney may be palpably evil while Obama is merely weak, but to those who seek to keep us in a state of permanent war, it does not matter. They get what they want.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090518_the_disease_of_permanent_war/

[earcandle]

67. we wrote this for Cheney and other bad leaders who do not care about the carnage they create for

wealth

http://www.earcandleproductions.com/Atlas_Wept.swf

It is a beautiful piece with guests Matthew Grasso and Lizzy Borden

[tekisui]

72. knr!~

[WinkyDink]

73. The initial lie tells us everything. Everything.

[DissedByBush]

79. Agree or disagree with Kucinich,

You still have to respect him. I disagree with Kucinich often, yet he is so honest and so non-hypocritical in his positions that it must always be a respectful disagreement.

I can't say that for most of the clowns in that town.

[bc3000]

80. Obama has to keep the Afghanistan war going

Because if he doesn't, and we get attacked again, Cheney will win in 2012.

[frylock]

81. so what happens if we stay to fight them over there and still get attacked..

who wins then?

[xxqqqzme]

84. so far nobody is winning anything.

We have all lost a tremendous amount in the interim.

[Amos Moses]

90. People have to die because it will help Obama win an election.

unfuckingbelievable

People really do say some crazy shit on this forum. :crazy:

[Algorem]

85. hey,wait,isn't thers a lot of war dough to be made there?

[bamacrat]

89. Just imagine our country with Kucinich as pres. would be great.

Love Obama but I think Kucinich could do more domestically even though he is way more prgressive. Mainly because he is white, which is what I think is fueling most of the anti Obama sentiment. Imagine what our economy would be like had we not had these two wars bleeding us dry.

[Soylent Brice]

93. the war is over

[earcandle]

106. I second that emotion! As well!

[RoccoR5955]

95. K & R

Kucinich/Sanders '12

Start a DEPARTMENT OF PEACE, and use cuts in the defense department to fund it. We spend more than 50% of our federal budget on defense, more than the next 10 countries in the world combined. If we want to balance the budget, we should start looking at this Military-Industrial Complex, that Eisenhower warned us of, many years ago

[Elmore Furth]

96. We should declare victory and go home in Afghanistan!

We've already done that in Iraq. Anyone know where there is a spare 'Mission Accomplished' banner?

http://fpwatch.blogspot.com/2009/07/declare-victory-and-go-home.html

[polichick]

97. Thank you Congressman Kucinich! k&r nt

[unkachuck]

98. thank you, Dennis....n/t

[juno jones]

100. K&R!

Dennis is right as always. We need to leave.

[Webster Green]

102. Al Qaeda ain't shit. Bin Laden is long dead. Cheney did 9/11..

Why aren't we bombing Wyoming? :shrug:

[earcandle]

107. LOLOLOLOLO!!!!!!!!!! wow, is that where this is sourced?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

109. I think he lives in MD

[Rosa Luxemburg]

104. Remind me why we are in Afghanistan?

because we are frightened of the GOP?

[earcandle]

108. And could that fear be more imagined than real? Mirrors and smoke? Or is it belongingness needs?

[Skittles]

110. real leadership

[burrowowl]

113. DK is a REAL STATESMAN

and DEMOCRAT!


:kick: