Brazil to assemble French fighters for Latin market:FM

[tocqueville]

Source: AFP

AFP) – 4 hours ago

BRASILIA, Brazil — Brazil would assemble Rafale fighter jets under an imminent deal with France, and could sell them to other Latin American nations, Foreign Minister Celso Amorim said Monday.

His comments came after Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva and visiting French President Nicolas Sarkozy announced in a joint statement that Brazil had started talks to acquire 36 Rafale combat aircraft in a deal worth billions of dollars.

"There is a decision to negotiate the purchase of the Rafales, which won't be a simple purchase because there will be (aircraft) construction in Brazil -- there will be a possibility for Brazil to sell these planes to Latin America," Amorim told reporters.

He explained that the Rafale's effective victory over two other aircraft in a race to equip Brazil's air force -- the F/A-18 Super Hornet made by US group Boeing and Sweden's Gripen NG, built by Saab -- hinged on France's pledge to share the technology that goes into the jet.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iK1VlscfiwqfEQDbHPB1oH7LMn5g

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Sarkozy, meanwhile, told a news conference that France plans to acquire a dozen KC-390 military cargo transport planes made by Brazil's Embraer to replace U.S.-made C-130s it now uses.
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Brazil already has agreed to buy five French Scorpene submarines, one of them with nuclear propulsion, and 50 Cougar helicopters for about $12 billion. All would be assembled in Brazil.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iyRDMnULjgeHr9hf9i81V9vTKh_QD9AIL23O0

[AzNick]

1. French are desperate to sell the Rafale

It really is a great plane. During French and American Top Gun maneuvers, the US flyers were really surprised and if I recall the Rafale vs F-17 confrontations were largely on the Rafale side (I'll have to look that up for substance).

It is nonetheless a very expensive plane, and usually the choice is between 10 Mercedes vs 5 Ferraris and countries that are larger in size but with a small GDP would simply buy the 10 aircraft.

Some also complain that apparently the US have influenced potential buyers using other means that fair competitiveness, but who really knows.

France had to compromise and is barely making a Euro on these planes.

[tocqueville]

3. price tags

Rafale US$ 82.3 million
Eurofighter same price (cannot be used today on carriers)
Gripen US$ 61 million

F-15 US$ 100 million (2006)
F-18 US$ 54.7 million

so since only the 3 first ones are in the generation 4.5 and the Gripen has only one engine, the Rafale isn't particularly expensive.

that "the US have influenced potential buyers using other means that fair competitiveness" is obvious, like dumping F-16s for half the price.

The deal opens now the market for the UAE (pre-ordered 60), Switzerland, Greece and India. The difference is that France allows technology transfer while the US is extremely restrictive. On the latest planes (F-22) it's practically impossible and the JSF had become practically a lend-lease operation, which has made even European allies to suspend the deals. So we will see about the euros.... The deal includes a coopt development of a transport plane with Brazil, a plane France was needing anyway. The Rafales will cost Brazil round US$4.5-5 billions and the planes France buys $600 millions.

Finally at the Red Arrow exercises the score of the Rafale was 20-1. And the plane wasn't allowed to use active stealth or BTH missiles. No shame in it, the Rafale wasn't meeting F-22s or F-35s. The plane is in a category beyond the 4th generation, that's all. The Rafale is operational since 2004 and combat proven. The Eurofighter has been bought by the nations funding it, except Saudi-Arabia and still largely "under delivery".

The rafale coverage of south america from 3 brazilian air bases.
red border = strandard HLH strike using GBU
blue zone = extra coverage allowed by the scalp-EG cruise missile

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80830&stc=1&d=1252350930

notice that the plane could easily disable the Panama canal with a more northern base than Manau..

[Posteritatis]

8. Er, where are you getting those prices?

The F-15 is nowhere near $100M per plane, and the others are rather less expensive in unit cost than your list claims.

[tocqueville]

11. wikipedia and other sources

these are "naked" prices. The prices vary depending of what is with following the plane and the uppgrades (for example the UAE demands a version of the Rafale that doesn't exist yet, but of course they will pay for it). This article shows it :

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogscript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:8a9d93c8-8a67-45a1-a2be-6b29037b3aa7

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-3638.html

notice that the second blog prices the F-15 to 90 millions.

I only wanted to point out that :

there are only 3 comparable Western 4.5 fighters and the Rafale isn't specially more expensive than the Eurofighter. The Gripen will always be cheaper, but it's a light fighter,
not a medium fighter.

the US planes of generation 4 uppdated with the latest technologies (weapons, avionics etc..) arrive in the same price category, but lack some of the advantages of the generation 4.5.

the generation 5 (F22, F35) are extremely expensive and not really proven yet. Besides restrictions make them hard to sell.

the rumor that the Rafale is "too expensive" for its capability is typical US disinfo, that appeals to the "patriotic" US fiber which automatically brands all non US products as crap. Specially planes.

[provis99]

12. the F-15 is obviously amortized prices

we're still paying for the cost of research and development on the thing, long after it arrived. The amortized cost of the white elephant F-22 is about $400 million each. The armed forces estimate the 2,465 JSF ordered will cost about $360 billion just for airframe purchases, not including amortization and cost of operation; that's about $146 million per plane. The Rafaele is dirt cheap in comparison.

[Vidar]

2. Good for Brazil & France.

[oct2010]

4. Hugo will be nervous if Brazil starts to cozy up to his enemies

give it time. I know some US manufacturing spinoffs set up shop down there for the weather and tax break reasons. I'm sure they will profit from it.

[AzNick]

6. France has pretty ok relations with Venezuela

But France has pretty ok relations with everybody who does business with her, like most advanced nations, anyway. France does business with Cuba and Myanmar (Total or Elf -which one I forgot- runs its petro-gas industry) and also protects several African "democratically" elected leaders (a friend of mine just took the job of private tutor for the French ambassador's children in Bangui).

I am half-French, but Hey, hey, what can I say? (play me some Led Zeppelin).

[Vidar]

9. I was going to reply that Hugo gets along fine with both Brazil & France, but you were tomstoned

[enid602]

10. Lula

Brazil rejected Venezuela´s bid to become a member of Mercosul, and recently at the Unasur Conference in Bariloche, Argentina Lula sided with those who were not in favor of condemning US activity in Colombia. The ever-diplomatic Lula said that the hardware from France was needed to defend recently-found offshore oil depostis and the Amazon Basin, but that´s just bullshit. He´s arming to protect Brazil and the Continent from Venezuela and the Bolivarian Revolution.

[provis99]

13. amazing how you can see into the mind of foreign leaders like that.

Oh wait; Occam's Razor says you're full of baloney.

[enid602]

15. Chavez

I live in Buenos Aires,just a hours from the Brazilian border. Lula knows that his minor purchase of French fighter planes will do little to change the balance of power between Brazil and the US. Compare the US´and Brazil´s defense spending for this year.

This meager investment does, however change the balance of power within South America. Although one can argue that Chavez has lost points recently with most South American leaders, I think Lula wants to keep Chavez effectively contained.

[Vidar]

14. Just like Michigan has to defend itself from Canada. What a joke!

[Psephos]

5. Not so good for all those union workers at US aerospace factories. nt

[AzNick]

7. Well if I remember the Airbus deal...

Airbus showed up with a working prototype and they refueled an F16 several times in Spain.

When Boeing was asked where their prototype was, they showed a drawing.

Worked for Powell at the UN but not this time.