Stiglitz Says Banking Problems Are Now Bigger Than Pre-Lehman

[UpInArms]

Source: Bloomberg News

Sept. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel Prize- winning economist, said the U.S. has failed to fix the underlying problems of its banking system after the credit crunch and the collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.

“In the U.S. and many other countries, the too-big-to-fail banks have become even bigger,” Stiglitz said in an interview today in Paris. “The problems are worse than they were in 2007 before the crisis.”

Stiglitz’s views echo those of former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker, who has advised President Barack Obama’s administration to curtail the size of banks, and Bank of Israel Governor Stanley Fischer, who suggested last month that governments may want to discourage financial institutions from growing “excessively.”

A year after the demise of Lehman forced the Treasury Department to spend billions to shore up the financial system, Bank of America Corp.’s assets have grown and Citigroup Inc. remains intact. In the U.K., Lloyds Banking Group Plc, 43 percent owned by the government, has taken over the activities of HBOS Plc, and in France BNP Paribas SA now owns the Belgian and Luxembourg banking assets of insurer Fortis.

While Obama wants to name some banks as “systemically important” and subject them to stricter oversight, his plan wouldn’t force them to shrink or simplify their structure.

Stiglitz said the U.S. government is wary of challenging the financial industry because it is politically difficult, and that he hopes the Group of 20 leaders will cajole the U.S. into tougher action.

Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYdgQkXu9eBg

[Roland99]

1. It never made sense to me for Citi, Chase, BoA to buy the remnants of those now gone.

Why not divvy up the remains to the strong local and regional banks? Why persist the problem?

*shaking head*

[davidwparker]

2. because those at the larger, failed banks can promise bigger checks to

those who made the decisions.

Not bailing them out was probably the best way to do.

[truedelphi]

8. And the fact is - the legislation needed to save the economy

Was already in place, as a hold over from the collapse of the S & L's back in the late eighties. We could have just put the "Too big to Fail" banks into receivorship, and then given the Bailout monies to small state chartered banks, one in each region, with the mandated provision that the money had to be lent out to laocl customers.

But instead we gave the money to the Big Wall Street players, who are not loaning it out to Main Street. In fact, what is happening is that the commodity buys (From all the influx of the Capital) are destroying small farms across the nation. Grain prices got bid up, and the milk prices got bid down.

Coming soon, the Big Players will be buying out the local utilities - look for your utility bills to triple or quadruple in two to three years (IF Kucinich can be believed on this!)

[Grinchie]

21. Yes, and thats the irony.

My interpretation is that those laws actually had teeth, which would be unwelcome at this juncture, so just ignore them and right a new set of more Corporate friend rules with lots of loopholes.

[Enthusiast]

36. If things go according to plan.

"Coming soon, the Big Players will be buying out the local utilities - look for your utility bills to triple or quadruple in two to three years"

They will destroy this country. One more greedy act like this will be our end. Many Americans will live in extreme poverty. What motive could make people do this? When is enough - enough?

[truedelphi]

84. Unfortunately the People who are the Powers that Be

Don't ever bother to ask when is enough enough.

And since it is all One Big Money Party, I don't know what the fix is.

It hasn't helped that many Americans PRIDE themselves on the fact that they don't know diddley about economics. I cannot tell you how many emails and PM's I have had from women I know who say, "Well I don't know what you are talking about, I don't even know what receivership is, but I do trust Obama and he is so smart and surely the people that he has appointed will be doing the right things. I trust Obama."

What it probably boils down to is this: A nation in which people have never had the rug pulled out from under them can be hoodwinked. They have nothing to compare it too.

One of the scarier moments for me was just this last spring, after the second TARP was being put in place, one Senator (one I didn't recognize said (I am paraphrasing) "They pretty much forced me to vote for this. But I don't know about it."

He paused and looked at his colleague and then added "But I do wonder if a few years from now, if this doesn't work out the way Geithner and Bernanke say it will, if this nation won't be another Romania."

Most Americans don't know about the level of poverty that people in Romania experienced. What It is like to live in a nation where you got to the store and the shelves are empty.

I mean, I have older women friends who tell me, "Well you and M have to worry about Obama's actions, but I don't - I am on Social Security and get my check the first of each month. So I am fine"

What kind of disconnect is that? Don't they realize if the nation goes belly up, they won't be getting a check?

[Enthusiast]

85. Yes, that is one serious

disconnect. Nearly every one of the protesters are suffering the same disconnect. They are completely clueless.

[westerebus]

38. Utility bills

And you can bet they will blame cap and trade for the increase. And kiss the green recovery good bye while you're at it.

[truedelphi]

104. What did you like about cap and trade.

Not meant to be snarky - I just feel that everything that involves that bill means the poor will suffer the most. The industries will just pass whatever penalties exist from it on to us, the consumers.

Cap and trade would have been meaningful if this Administration had in place an entire budget for alternate modes of energy. Instead of giving two to three trillion away to the banks, at Main St's expense, we would have been better off with this Administration creating HUGE FUNDS for funding such things as allowing cities that own their utilities to modernized them with solar and wind. Etc.

[ProudDad]

108. I'd prefer a carbon TAX

A carbon tax HEAVY enough to get to 90% of 1990 greenhouse gas emissions by 2025!!! (which we MUST do or forget the Earth as a hangout for large air-breathing mammals)...

And a guaranteed annual income that equals a living wage...including the new, higher energy costs...

And a heavily graduated progressive income tax (again) and wealth tax and stock transfer tax and financial transactions tax...

Socialism -- You're God Damn Right!!!

Viva Socialismo!!!

[caseymoz]

42. Which goes to show that "saving" economy wasn't wholly on the up and up.

Cue the catcalls about stating the obvious, but the point I want to make is that the government could have just made breaking up those companies a condition of the bailout. Incredibly, I think we're within one year of the same kind of crisis occurring with a different bubble. In food commodities, perhaps? It's not like these bankers have a different business model than before. Goldman Sachs is doing the same thing with derivatives that they were before the crisis, and all have blocked any heavier regulation of swaps and derivatives. It's almost like having the mad bomber still on the loose.

So, why the move into commodities? I sense a gold rush. The slight amounts that farmers are getting for their products are just scandalous, and the fact that rising food prices worldwide are now causing widespread poverty and starvation, is criminal. Some people at the top of finance already had a squeeze going on these markets, that's why the prices have been rising. Now they've passed word of money to be made on the bubble to their other friends in banking and finance. They are probably backing derivatives based on commodities.

If the same people who caused people to lose their houses and jobs now cause worldwide famine I'd say they will need mighty fine friends in Washington to save their necks from the nooses.

[Ghost Dog]

52. They have mighty fine friends in Washington. n/t

[caseymoz]

89. I meant that ironically. People will put those friends' necks in the nooses first.

[truedelphi]

86. In June July and August alone,

100,000 cows were slaughtered in just three counties in California. And these are the small farmer, dairy farms that have been impacted by the commodity brokers. The bigger places can borrow from the Parent Company and ride out the high grain prices.

Then next year, everything on the dairy shelves will be very very expensive, as the competition will have been done in. And it will all be Bovine Growth hormone "enhanced" as well.

So Main Street's tax dollars have offered the Big Banks the rope with which to hang us. <sigh>

And so as it ever was...

[DallasNE]

45. Two Acts, Both During The Clinton Years

Greased the skids. Repeal of Glass-Stegall and the legislation that allowed the merger of Travelers and Citi Bank to go forward. Refusal to enforce the remaining regulation by the Bush administration compounded the problem greatly. Throw in Greenspan's monetary policy that assured a housing bubble and the ducks were in a row.

[Taverner]

9. Why they didn't fold all of those into the creation of a Federal Bank

Yep, boogabooga SOCIALISM!!!

But they should have

[On the Road]

106. For a Company Like Bear Stearns or Merrill Lynch

Regional banks are really not in the same businesses and don't have the scale to deal with that kind of acquisition.

If a smaller company acquires a bigger one, both are likely to go down.

At least I believe that's the theory.

[depakid]

3. "Not a dime's worth of difference" comes to mind....

[ixion]

4. thank you, Mr. Stiglitz for reminding us of this

all this talk of recovery is absolute nonsense, given that the underlying issues still exist.

[ProSense]

5. At least AIG and other are under investigation

Prosecutors Are Poised to Impanel AIG Grand Jury

[aquart]

27. "Poised"? You mean they haven't done it YET?

Not gonna hold my breath.

[ProudDad]

109. Slight tap on the wrist, coming up! maybe someday (n/t)

[Greyhound]

6. Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, FUUUUUUUUUCCCKKK!!!

They will not be satisfied until there is literally nothing left with which to rebuild.

Oh and we told you so...


But no , I'm sure the Goldman Sachs Department of the Treasury and the Goldman Sachs Reserve Bank will take care of us.
:eyes:
:kick: & R

[ChiciB1]

13. Well Hey... Why Not GET MAD?? I AM! My Daughter Refinanced Her Home With

"a bank" other than the "big ones" about 6 months ago... last week she got a letter in the mail saying that they SOLD her mortgage to BOA!! She is LIVID, especially since I, myself had to wait FOUR YEARS for them to settle a fraudulent credit card account with me!!

Even after BOA ended up paying me back my almost $7,000.00 of fraudulent charges, THEY STILL send me crap to get ANOTHER credit card with them!

So I too say.... FUUUUUUUUK!! Rome & Fiddlers, I just can't STOP thinking this way!!!

I KNOW people who live in the UK and LOVE IT... but I can't even THINK about it!!

[ChiciB1]

15. And I EVEN SPELLED IT WRONG!! I GIVE UP FOR TODAY!!! n/t

[Grinchie]

24. Here's another great story about BOA

It appears that when they bought MBNA a few years ago, they also merged all the records for accounts that had historically defaulted with MBNA. Their policy is to now take that debt which was disposed of in Bankruptcy, and make it part of their record.

This means, that anybody that had defaulted on any card, held by any institution that BOA has absored, now has a record of default, and a "PERMANENT" record of debt to BOA.

Correct me if I am wrong, but meybe they use the new debta as a write off for Taxes. It would not surprise me.

BOA's policy is that if an individual defaults, they will no longer issue any credit cards to that person, regardless of re-established good credit.

This is true story, as related to me by a good friend, a tenacious researcher. It took months to get to the bottom of this, several letters, phone calls and research on the Web regarding mergers. My friend went through bankruptcy 12 years ago, and has an 789 FICO score today, owns property, and is completely out of debt.

So there is a snapshot of the Credit situation in America. As the big consume the small, they incorporate their uniqueness into the collective, much like the Borg.

Clean up your credit after 10 years of hard work, a, well, thats a myth. And now that the market is reduced to to big to fail, the actual vendor count for credit has contracted many times over.

I hope I was able to explain this well enough, but it pretty well vindicated my opinion of the all holy "Good Credit Score" being nothing more than a marketing hype/propaganda. I now have my proof that it's all arbitrary, playing by "Insurance Company Rules".

[WriteDown]

30. That actually sounds like an excellent policy in some respects...

since risky lending was a large part of what got us into this mess, then focusing on rock solid lending may be the key to getting out. I guess it could be argued that their policies are too conservative, but its hard to fault someone for gambling less. Especially with cottage industry that specializes on quick credit clean-ups.

[Grinchie]

47. I guess you did read it.. the "WriteDown" occurred 12 years ago, in a separate banks books.

So, when the mythology of "Fixing Your Credit" is finally skewered as nothing but BS, people with restored credit no longer have any options.

In case you haven't notice, credit is frozen, and this is just another reason why.

That's OK, we'll just go back to an all cash Economy, and they can be safe and secure with their Rock solid policies that came about 15 years too late, yet earned then Bi8llions of dollars in bailouts.

[WriteDown]

58. I admitted its a VERY conservative policy....

but like I said its hard to fault them for being extra careful.

[CoffeeCat]

59. Screw the FICO score...

Any time you DARE to suggest, "Who cares!" about your FICO score, the screams of horror are practically non stop.

We have been conditioned to live and die by our FICO score. It's a blackmailing device--used to keep you in line
with the corporate overlords.

I'm all for paying bills on time. We do that. The problem is, people practically lose their minds when you tell them
to cut up their credit cards....NOooooooooo....You have to have credit cards to build up your FICO score!!!!

We have no credit cards, no retail cards. We got a mortgage without any credit cards. And we got a prime rate.

Using credit cards as part of a daily financial regiment--is ludicrous too--but I guess that's a whole other ball of wax...

We also had a medical bill collections department call us on a $20 co-pay they said we didn't pay. I always pay
the co-pays so I knew it was an error. The guy got nasty and said, "This will ruin your FICO score!". I chimed
back, "We pay cash for everything and we could care less about our FICO score. Do it up!" He was so gobsmacked,
he didn't know what to say. These sharks are so used to getting money out of people with the threat of a destroyed
FICO score. I bet they get money that isn't even owed!

I refused to pay that bill, and surprise, surprise---next month, the bill statement came back 0--paid in full.

We have all been so bamboozled.

[Grinchie]

91. Exactly. I'm with you on the FICO score fraud.

Anything that is so opaque and proprietary that it hidden as a "Trade Secret", is vulnerable to fraud. That's exactly how Madoff made his money, and is frightenly similar to the totally incomprehensible Title 26 of the U.S. Code. (Income Tax Law). I dare people to read that with comprehension.

[truedelphi]

7. Why oh why does Stiglitz have to hate America?

I guess Rashm Emmanuel forgot to send him the memo - Bernanke saved our sorry ass, and all is well.

[DeSwiss]

10. "Stiglitz said.....

....the U.S. government is wary of challenging the financial industry because it is politically difficult."

- Read: "Testiculus Minutus"

K&R

[Jakes Progress]

11. Pay no attention to the people with brains.

Let's get our plans from political operatives. It's always better to get the advice of the greed heads who brought this about than world class nobel minds.

[Grinchie]

25. Better yet, just get a Moderator to delete their analysis!

Exclusion and refusal to discuss the import issues is so much more effective.

[Ghost Dog]

53. Yep. Down the memory hole with this.

Best of all possible worlds.

[givemebackmycountry]

12. They screwed us. They bent us over and screwed us.

And then, while we lay there bleeding, stunned and hurting we ask, "Why did you do that?"
And they respond "Fuck you, give me MONEY"!!
And we did, and they are laughing at us.
Mocking us.
Looking at us like we are weak and vulnerable.

They will be back again.
Demanding money.
ALL OF IT.

When are we going to punch one of these guys in the face and say...

"ENOUGH!"

We're in big trouble.

[metapunditedgy]

14. and we all knew it was happening, and we could do nothing, and they laughed at us. n/t

[CoffeeCat]

81. We are insects to them...

We are nothing but annoying little flies that sometimes make some noise.

They know they have the politicians in their pockets. They're the ones
bouncing around the cocktail circuit with our Senators. They're the ones
meeting with our Congress members in smoke-filled board rooms.

We The People---is not invited to this party.

[Jakes Progress]

40. It seems we hired the wrong bodyguard. nt

[shanti]

87. there's still the SSA accounts

the BIG pot.

[RufusTFirefly]

16. All I have to say is...

I'm sure none of us saw this coming. :sarcasm:

[Subdivisions]

17. Well, duh. Anyone that is paying attention knows this. n/t

[QC]

18. Obama got almost $40,000,000 from the FIRE sector.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/indus.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638#sectors

[earcandle]

19. Didn't we see this was going to happen not too long ago? I think it was Max Kaiser who warned us

that the worse was yet to come.

This is a game the rich are playing with our government and
those who pay the government to manage us (that would be us).

I am telling you the only way to stop this is call their bluff
and create national banks.  Federalized socialized, whatever
you want to call taking care of our own economy... call it
Hellstar Bank if you want, I don't care but we need to pull
out all
of our money and collapse the fuckers ourselves.  

Put all of your money into credit unions. they have stricter
rules.  That might at least send a message we can't be fucked
with even if our government can. 

[earcandle]

20. Don't be afraid nor ashamed. Claim bankruptcy, get out of debt and start saving again.

[Grinchie]

29. Enron forced me into bankruptcy, by Bankrupting California

It was the best thing that ever happened to me, although I have to admit it was a painful way to wake up out of Sheepdom.

I now have the skills to provide for myself, and am totally free of the Rat Race. Work is what I like to do, and benefits me directly, not some Character straight out of a Dilbert cartoon.

I live simply, have all the time it takes to make good plan, good decisions, and do complete analysis -- of everything.

I eat well, avoid restaurants, fast food, doo dads and useless toys. Everything I own consists of books, tools, and materials to make stuff with.

It's truly a refreshing way to live, and I have plenty of time to see the economy going to hell in a handbasket, and try mitigate any problems down the road. I no longer live in fear..

[WriteDown]

32. I'm kind of like Wally.

:)

[eilen]

100. Could you elaborate more on this?

You can pm me if you don't wish to put it all out on the list. It really interests me as I am trying to find a better way to live and while I am not entirely within Sheepdom, the parts that still are .. chafe on my soul.

[Grinchie]

107. I did 7 years ago what Marc Faber is saying right now.

I bought farmland and developed it into a producing asset, instead of a residential liability.

I have watched the food supply decay into a noxious soup of chemical addditives, and I think food is the most important commodity there is. It is just too easy to grow to ignore producing your own, even in an urban situations. Everything makes a difference.

I lost my farm at the start of the bubble, but received triple what I paid for it in the late 90's, but the bubble hadn't reached Hawaii yet, so I took the proceeds and bought a larger farm, closer to town and better land, for cash, free and clear. I dumped all my money into the land, and it forced us to live frugally, off the grid, all the while learning how to produce our own water, and electricity, and dispose of waste.

You might think, wow, roughing it, but you'd be wrong. I has been the most serene and enjoyable part of my life. It really seems like the money lasts forever now., and if we were on the farm right now, we'd be living on at most 25 buck a week, depending on the price of ice. (Actually, we are moving towards no refrigeration, just like the Hawaiian's used to live. All food fresh, nothing to store in the fridge, the rest goes to chickens.

I am not sure that the modern urbanite would be able to adapt to this sort of lifestyle, but I used to be an urbanite many moons ago, but I have found that Urban life is noisy, stressful, and distracting.

The key is to get out of debt the best you can, and to document every expense, no matter how small. Put it in a spreadsheet and see where the money goes. Question the purpose and function of everything you own. Do the same for any capital expenditures, and adjust till you spend little to nothing. If you own a home, plant a garden, and get involved in your local seed exchange. Never buy seeds unless you are compelled to. Seeds from your neighbor are better adapated for you climate that store bought seeds, and are free pollinating. Don't be surprised to see last years plants come up next year on their own. Learn to identify plants in the seedling stage. Transplant volunteers, the good plants can take it.

You'd be amazed how many people are not familiar with plants.

Just remember, DEBT will chafe until it gone. I remember the rat race. The stress gave me IBS for years, whisch disappeared the day by Bankruptcy was finalled.

Oh and one more thing. Remove emotion and approach every deal with a mini business plan. Do a thourough treatment of the real expenditures of ANY project before you get involved. If the fundamentals don't work, just laugh and walk away. Don't worry, they are tons of opportunities out there. Never submit to sales pressure, or Going Going Gone salesmen. Laugh at them and walk away. If you find a great deal, never act immediately. If your are meant to have it, it will be there the next day, after you sleep on it. Dream on the possibilities and then decide. If you find you are sitting on a liability, then find a way to make it produce something -- Anything. IF you can't sell because the fundamental are wrong, then make it into a nice place for you to live or recreate in. A far as I'm concerned, the next property I'll buy must meet specific criteria, and I'm prepared to wait until it occurs. I trust that things will happen, and am happy with that, as it has turned out to be true. When you are completely out of debt, you can take the time to do things right and think properly, unlike people in the rat race.

Oh yeah, read every contract, license agreement, or agreement and make sure you understand your rights. Pay attention to mandatory arbitration and the jurisdiction it prescribes. Just refuse to do business if you see that clause, unless it's for a throway doo-dad like a printer. Everything else, forget it. Never buy extended warranties. Never use a Dryer, use a clothes line.
Get in the habit of having ten gallons of potable water stored in your house at all times. Think of what you would do if your water was disrupted. How would you dispose of waste?
Have candles in the house.

Beware of owning too much stuff.. It can be a ball and chain around your ankle if you want to travel or test a new state or go on an extended vacation.

Most of all, pay attention to worldwide media in addition to your usual sources. Some of the best unbiased news comes from other countries, and use it in combination with other sources to verify. This is especially critical in the economic area, as the M$M is bought and paid for.

These are definately turbulent times. Do what you can to become aware of what it really takes to live. What real value is, and take care of yourself.

As Robert Kiyosaki recomends "Pay Yourself First". Wiser words have never been uttered.

[eilen]

112. That's admirable.

We "own" our home-- still owe about $54,000 on it, so I guess the bank still owns it and we are "renting to own." We did do a small vegetable garden outside our small suburban home this year but it was pitiful. We did not go from seeds d/t our lack of planning and time being taken up with the rat race. We did buy seedlings from local farmers at the Farmer's Market so avoided the tomato blight but I think our growing soil is not the best. We have a great deal of clay in our soil, rabbits, voles and winter here is long in Central NY. I tried to start seeds last year but was off on my timing. Gardening is something I am really going to have to work on. Good tip about the water.

Regarding finances, we do still have some debt--- student loan debt and mortgage debt. We have a son in high school who will graduate in 2 years and expect we will end up going into some debt for college. I recognize the need to review our expenditures closely and make some tough decisions. I have a bunch of orphan 401K's that I'd just as soon cash in and pay my mortgage off with (or at least as much as I can). Since I still have a mortgage, I've kept my accounts with the bank that holds them, even though I think I'd rather use a credit union.

I don't know if I am truly cut out to be a farmer but I do like to make things and sew quite a bit. However, the global sweatshops really have brought clothing prices down and it seems that no one cares for quality fibers anymore, happy with the cheap Walmart stuff (and believe me the Macy's clothes are just as cheaply made as the Walmart ones are). Virtually all our textile mills have left and I believe there are no cotton mills in the US at all. I am intrigued by grass farming though, raising grass fed sheep. However I don't know if that is something I'd want to do in NY. My husband works with his hands, is an electrician and my brother is a carpenter. They are used to building and making things with their hands. It is a grand shame that Makers, for the most part, have been bypassed by our economy. It really makes the population more helpless and dumb. But I do kind of see opportunity in these half abandoned rust belt towns across the Northeast (NY, PA, -- and into OH). Our area was not really hit hard by the bubble popping except for the larger credit crunch. We are used to being recessioned-- slow bleed of industry since the 1970's. Carrier left, next will most likely be New Process Gear (since they were purchased by a Canadian concern), Syracuse China closed down and we are just holding our collective breath for Crucible Steel. I think once they paved over the Erie Canal and set up the interstate highway system, the die was set.

I am fed up with working within the crazy health care system we have and tired of dealing with the "will not's" and "can'ts". I feel set up in a job that no one can possibly meet all the expectations in the 8 hours allotted and the unspoken expectation that we work off the books to keep current in paperwork. The data entry is just insane. I think I'd rather be my own boss but then there is the concern about health care etc. I figure I'll never be able to retire as there won't be any social security/medicare left after the boomers (as went the intact family, low tuition education, the entry level and factory jobs, so will the benefits go as well). My generation doesn't expect it will be there.

[Grinchie]

114. Well, gardening on a limited scale never hurts.

But I would think that farming outright is not appropriate in your situation, however, there is nothing wrong with a well managed woodlot. There is quite a demand for good wood, and it doesn't take much to manage a 5 acre woodlot. All it needs is a little cleanup now and then to keep the wood in order and take care of unruly branches. Go to your favorite park that contains old growth, primary(Untouched forest and get seeds from the grandfathers. They will grow with care, and you can start them out with a little love and care at home.

That sounds like the easiest way to get the land productive. Perhaps you arlready have a woodlot and don't know it?

The clothes are terrible these days.. I get heavy cotton twill when I can find it at the thrift stores. I never buy new clothes anymore. I wear my clothes until they vaporize, especially on the farm.

When I worked for the rat race, I made my own hours, and told them if they didn't like it, they could replace me. They easily accomodated me and allowed for traffic. The other workers would be slaving away, and me and my carpool associate would walk in, refreshed and ready to go at 10:30 to 11:00, and then work till 7:30 or 8:00 PM about time for traffic to go away. The company saw how useless I was early in the morning, and saw the advantage to being flexible. It's not like they keep molten metal ready to pour and all hands are needed on deck to do it. Heavy data entry, just work at home... I did this for many Companies. Their is no difference. In my experience, it's always best to Ask and see what you get. If you get attitude, then it's time to move on.

If they get uppity on simple negotiations, then they are probably Dinosaur brains. Also, be very careful of disclosing any ideas,without having a plan to keep them from stealing it from you. This is very coming in the Software Industry. Many Times I would let a plagarist run with and inferior algorythm just to watch him say, Yes I can, only to watch him crash and burn when it bacame too horrendously difficult to maintain.

At the end of my working days, they were cutting wages by 10%, and laying off the weakest individuals, and it was hard to watch. Thats when I hardened my hard and said nore more to the rat race, and extricated myself as cleanly as possible. A year after I left, the office closed and was outsourced to India. I have no sympathy for the Corporate world anymore. I work for myself, and make sure I get paid first, ahead of everyone else.

Also, it sounds to me like you have definate equity in the house, but the reality is seeing how much you can save every month. It is all goes to pay of bills without making a dent, then you need to cut back on something. If the House is sucking all your income into a black hole, then you need to do something about it. Get efficient lightbulbs, heat only a few rooms in the winter, use excess wood from the woodlot, cancel cable, or the most important of all, learn how to see how much your neaighbors pay in taxes, and perhaps appeal your real property taxes lower. It is my experience that the tax assessor will tax at the highest rate unless you complain and set him or her straight. You can dedicate the land to forest for example, or you could find out that you have a big homeowners deductible that was not activated. If you have an elderly parent, you could get them to move in with you for a tax credit. Teire are many legal ways of reducing real property taxes, and with the deflationary cycle in the real estate bubble, you need to get your Parcel up to the head of the line to get a review. Do your's homework. Get comps of recent sales, and submit them if they support your appeal.

The will not fight if you have enough evidence to make it seem like the Appeal would win. They will just grant it.

Also, don't overlook the USDA programs for wildlands. Even though you many not qualify, do the preliminarys and talk to the local USDA people and get to know them. They are really nice people, and they really do like to help when they can.

Farming is a dying practice in America. There are still many programs available, even though they were gutting under Bush. Do your homework and see who got a grant or funding in your neighborhood and learn from them. Stay away from anything that say "Generally Accepted Agricultural Practices" however. This is a trap into the debt game, and avoid it. Try to get paid for doing nothing but a little hand clearing.

Don't bee disappointed if you only wrangle $1,000 and acre out of them. Thats actually good income for raw land annually.

Go to your library and get a book of the Great Trees of New York, then go plant some. Most likely, you land have been logged two to four times already, so be gentle on it. Take it slow, have fun, learn to be out in nature no matter what the weather, but be careful of Wind and Ice storms..

Sounds like you have a lot of larnin to do, so have fun with it. Start as a hobby and then when the time comes, you'll have the basic skills and the confidence under your belt. Again, keep track of every hand tool, every bag of seed, every seedling, every peat pot, the time it took you to Travel to, collect, and germinate native tree seeds. Catalog your fuel meticulously. Thes writeoffs are key to farming survival. Don't slouch like some people I know. You will be amazed how quickly it adds up. Don't cheat, you don't need to. Don't quit your day job. either, because you need support in the start up phase of the farm. Remember it could be hardwoods too and still is a farm.

And for petes sake, find the best tax preparere you can find, one that knows farming inside and out to prepare your taxes for at least three years professionally. It's like have a 3 year education for 1000 bucks.

All this stuff is the hard work I was talking about. In reality, it's not hard at all, once you see how simple it really is, and what records need to ne kept.

A good neighbor once said, it's nice to own five acres, but most people are lucky to be able to manage one. He's right. But, there comes a day when that 5 acres seems too small, and you graduate to 20 acres, and suddenly, it's small and you run out of things to work on, then you graduate to a tract of land, and once you get done managing it and getting it in balanced, you pick and choose the region you want to explore and just have fun. It's the most exhilerating thing in the world to actually get lost on your own property if you forgot your compass.

It's happened to me.. It took me an hour to find my way back.

Hope this helps.. You'll have to research what grows best in your Climate zone.

[Grinchie]

28. Oh, we have not seen anything yet.

There is a G-20 in Pittsburgh next week.

Personally, I would have thought this video was nuts a few months ago, but his explanation of pulling all your money out of the bank and leaving only enough in there to do basic transaction seems like a winner to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbiu_kH-HM

Remember, and fractional reserve bank depends on at least 10% captital reserves for normal draft accounts.

Did you know that Savings and Money Market Accounts are not subject to Fractional Reserve Requirements? Yes, it's true, they can use 100 percent as capital for lending purposes. For all intents and purposes, I pulled all of my money out of the bank in 2007 when I found that there are restrictions of only $5,000 a day withdrawals. I pulled my entire captial out and put it into cash, in a safe deposit box. With current rates, I think I lost about 5 dollars in interest earnings for the two years my money "Hasn't Been Working For Me" which really means, working for the Bank by inflating the money supply.

I have complete liquidity, and ultimately, that has been more valuable that watching it twitch a bit here and there in a monthly account statement.

A Nice, frightening run on any Bank would quickly gather lots of attention, but they have people so trained to fear this, they they automatically are afraid to collapse the banks. Well guess what folks, when the Commercial Real Estate bubble pops, you'll be standing in line for real trying to get your money out. I suggest that you think about drawing down the balance as fast as you can.

One thing I have learned in the past 2 years -- People love cash.

[Ghost Dog]

54. Yes.

A real economy depends on genuine creditworthiness. Get to know very well your neighbors, best.

[paparush]

57. Be sure to read the fine print on that safety deposit box...just sayin.

[Grinchie]

92. Actually, it applies to all Safe Deposit Boxes

Yes, I am fully aware of the ability of the FDIC to seize control of Safe Deposit Boxes. This is for all Banks.

I figure that is a risk I can live with, because it that day comes, there will be thousands of others screaming and hollering right alongside me.

Honestly, I'd rather not keep large sums in my house. There is no need for it.

But, you make a good point, and clarify it for those that may not be aware of the rules. In fact, I need to review them, since I haven't read the rules regarding the seizure of Safe Deposit Boxes in a few years.

Thanks.

[CoffeeCat]

79. I hear ya...loud and clear...

I told my husband a year ago, that we needed to get our money out of the stock market and the bulk of our cash
out of the bank.

He balked, but ultimately (cuz I batted my eyelashes and bugged him incessantly), we have most of our cash pulled out and
the majority of our 401k is out of the stock market. Yeah me!

It even bothers me that we have a measly $5k left in a savings account that is tied to our checking. I think that needs to
be slowly ATM'd out of there and into the safe-deposit box.

Thanks for this message--because my husband still thinks that I'm a bit nutty about all of this.

And you're right...people do love cash. We have paid cash for our cars, and even a camper. I can't believe the deals
we've got in the past two years. People are trying to unload lots of toys--boats, jet skis, campers, cars, etc. If you
show up with $100 bills you can get amazing deals.

[Grinchie]

93. You aren't kidding!

I have several thousand dollars of antique tools, in mint condition, perfectly usable, and more effective than any tool you'd find in Home Depot or Sears. They are comfortable, heavy, effeciant, easy to sharpen, and can run circles around any power tool.

all for pennies on the dollar.

I avoid the toys, and go for tools and unique, suppressed technologies from the old days. Like Hand tools... Lol. I spend what I save on Organic food and feed my brain to stay out of the fog induced by our society of Trans Fats, GMO synthefood, and sugar syrup.

[CoffeeCat]

98. Wow, that's interesting about the tools...

I had a garage sale this summer and a friend asked me if she could put some things in the sale. One of the things
she put in was a collection of old tools.

She had several tools, including a hand-crank screwdriver and a hand drill. They were really cool, really old and I was very intrigued
by them. She sold them for 50 cents each.

I suppose you could find stuff like that on Craig's List.

I like your philosophy about food. I swear, my mind has cleared since my eating habits changed. I literally--could see a fog
throughout the day. It was due to sleep apnea, but the sleep apnea caused me to eat all kinds of junk. Now that I'm eating
healthier--I feel like someone Windex'd my brain. Everything seems clearer.

You really do have to wonder if the horrible food we're eating isn't part of their overall plan to make us slow, dimwitted
and too tired to fight back.

[Grinchie]

101. Shame about the tools, but I hope they found a good home

There are rare souls that actually patrol the yard sales and estate sales for treasures. I only look for tools that I can put to work, and if it is really special, I will buy a poorly maintained tool and restore it if I can. One really gets good at inspecting the critical parts of a Wood Plane for example. Restoring them get you aquainted with them again, and it's a joy to be able to just walk to anywhere on the property and drill a hole without batteries or electricty of any kind. They work slow enough so you can catch the errors before they get too larges, and otherwise allow me to hear the birds.

Some of the stuff you find is truly crap, but after a while you recognize the heavy cast iron, appropriate size, and ruggedness as opposed to some of the crap that appeared in the 50's and 60's.

I have noticed that old tools are becoming scarce. It almost feels like people are getting an idea that grandpa's old rusty tools aren't a bunch of junk anymore.

If you are interested in learning more about Nutrition, I recomend Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A Price. It is an eye opening work written in the 1930's, and demonstrates what real science is all about, before the advent of Corporate owned scientists. Just remember to travel back to the 30's and try and imagine the social climate back then. While Price was promoting healthy Nutrition as prevention and fundamental, the Powers that Be chose to focus on Eugenics... We all know how helpful Eugenics was, and it typifies the example that the simple, effective, natural cure was dismissed in order to promote the modern theory of Genetics and predisposition. It's pretty disgusting. Genetic predisposition was also used by the pharmaceutical industry to raise profits as well.

Then "Sick and Tired" by Dr. Robert Young. This is a good introduction to the Pleomorphist school of medicine, which was shunned in favor of Pasteurs Monomorphism. I'll let you know right now that I believe Pleomorphism is the truth, and Monomorphism exists for the benefit of medical and pharmaceutical profits. They sort of work, but they really don't know, or care about the cause of disease.

Food is the key to health. I feel so strongly about it that I left my career of 25 years as a software engineer, and have devoted the rest of my life to it. It is much more rewarding that Software Development ever was, and there is always something to learn. New plants, New Pests, New Weeds, New uses for things, and discovery of an older, more healthy lifestyle. I am totally organic, and a baby could crawl through my orchards unscathed. My fields are storehouses of life, and I am truly grateful that I have been given the chance to be a good steward of the land.

It led me to nutritional research and new crops, and ethnobotany, which enlightened me to the quickly disappearing methods of cultivation around the world, especially in the pacific islands.

Did you know that Coconut juice is sterile, and can be used as a glucose solution for intravenous feeding?. Did you know that Coconut and Palm Oil are not the deadly toxins that they are made out to be by the medical profession? In fat, they are one of the more healthy essential fatty acids there is in the world. It was a Lobby in washington that campaigned against these staples and got man made fats put in our foods in the 90's. AKA Trans Fats.

Drink lots of distilled water too. Most people do not drink what they need.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm always happy to share with someone that has awakened to the realities of nutrition. They are usually the ones that are clear headed and can make connections.

Some on this board communicate like all they eat are Chicken McNuggets with a Diet Coke chaser. Lol.

[Skittles]

22. why would they fix it?

what would be their incentive? they fucked up, got handed billions, gave out big bonuses, no one held accountable....as far as they are concerned, everything is peachy keen

[MannyGoldstein]

23. What Does That Loser Stiglitz Know?

Larry Summers was right when he deregulated banking, he was right when he sent our manufacturing to China, and he's right this time.

[defendandprotect]

26. Where does it say in our Constitution that taxpayers bail out capitalism??????

[Grinchie]

31. It's called the National Security Act of 1947

I think you'll like this if you haven't seen it already.

The real connection to this thread really starts in Part 2, but heres a link to Part one, because it's the best presentations I've seen. http://www.personalgrowthcourses.net/video/ufo_videos

[defendandprotect]

34. Going to take me a little while to figure out that one . . . be back tomorrow --

Now, why are you sending me a UFO video -- though I might be able to guess.

Meanwhile, I hate videos -- EXCEPT THE MOST ESSENTIAL ONES that really, really

have to be seen. It's always nice to have a little recap -- but it takes a lot

of time to watch them!

Tomorrow --

:)

PS: Also looks like an interesting website!

[Grinchie]

49. As I said above, Part two, which explains what Ike meant about the Military Industrial Complex.

It's explained in no uncertain terms what he meant by this in part two of this Documentary.

Again, connections are the key to Knowledge, and that's why the PTB likes to keep them separated and distinct, when it is well known that everything is connected somehow. The devil is in finding the information and connecting the strings.

This is one of the better ones that explains how we arrived at where we are in the Corporatocracy.

If you want to be enraged, just watch the 1976 60 Minutes episode on the Swine Flu. That one is very important.

[defendandprotect]

50. I'll definitely try to watch it tomorrow . .

:)

[Grinchie]

51. It's not going anywhere.

[defendandprotect]

73. OK . . .

I tried to watch Part II -- and by the way, I've seen Out of the Blue --

but don't have time to watch any more of it --

BREAKOUT what you're trying to say --

:)

And -- strictly on the UFO info, I'm in total agreement. Always have been!

[Grinchie]

94. I can't speak for the assistant to Ike when he describes why Ike was afraid of the MIC

It would be like me trying to tell you what Biden said to his wife last night. It wouldn't work.

[ChiciB1]

88. Thanks For The Link... I'll Be Checking Out "The AntiForeclosureArmy" Site n/t

[Grinchie]

90. It's kind of hokey, and I don't agree with everything, simply because it is so mind boggling.

However, the idea about "Making a run on the bank is by far the most effective means of exposing the Fraud of undercaptilaized banks known to the Common Man.

To get a clearer understanding of why this is a fact, just take a look at the film, "Money as Debt" to see how the Fractional Reserve Monetary System works.

It explains to the common man how our money supply is based on Debt, or your promise to pay. This Promise to Pay is used as Captital for the further growth of the money supply. In other words, your 100,000 mortgage can create 90,000 dollars of capital the bank can then loan out again, again again, and again. Furthermore, the interest on the debt is never created out of thin air. It is up to you to find a source for that extra money somewhere else in the economy, so this forces a cycle of perpetualy groud. If perpepuatual growth stops, or resources run out, or whatever else cause you to fail to find the extra monies for Interest, you file for Bankruptcy, they take your assets, and they take the additional step of WritingDown the debt and claiming a deduction of Taxes for the "Loss", even though they just transferred all your wealth to the lienholder.

In a normal economy, this is all normal, and part of the "Balancing Process". They count on at least 5% of people to fail as part of normal business.

In a bad economy, we are seeing huge defaults, and the money created by bad mortgages is no longer able to repay, so the capital used to finance new loans has shriveled up. This is why their is no more credit anymore. The Toxic Assets and their volume is still a mystery to many, and the Fed is giving the bank just enough money to handle day to day transactions. Banks now have a standing policy to only allow withdrawls of up to $5,000 per branch, per day. If you don't believe me, try and withdraw $6,000 in cash. If you can talk them into doing it, it will take about an hour of your time.

Only rre arranged special accounts are allowed to bypass this rule, and normally at a central branch, to accomodate businesses.

OK, so wouldn't this destroy the Economy? Well, in a word, yes. Would this be bad? In my opinion, we are witnessing the continuation of a fraud of a massive scale, and we are the lender of last resort to bailing out these crooks. We as citizens are not being bailed out, no, we are being sold into debt slavery in order to keep the fraud running so they can get out in an orderly fashion. It is going to collapse, but they are gaming the world by buying time, gathering more power, while ignoring the regulations already on the books.

The only power the common man has is to withdraw from the Economy for a period of time to show that we are not going to fall for the fraud anymore.

If Americans did this En Masse, it would reveal the nakedness of the Emperors for all to see, and the ensuing Propaganda machine can be observed for what it is.

I have alredy withdrawn for the economy years ago, and I am doing just fine. All the myths of needing to have your money working for you have been proven wrong, simply because I have not experienced the terrible problems they claim will occur if you have your money at home "Under the Mattress" as per the colloquialism. Actually, it's in a safe deposit box, in cash, available to me at any time I desire.

I keep about a thousand in the bank account proper for convenience and day to day expenses.

Am I deflating the money supply? You bet, I figure their are several hundred thousands of dollars less money for the bank to lend out at 5% interest. They don't pay ME 5% interest for the money in my bank account.

The trouble is that this system is pervasive throughout the entire economy in regards to leverage, and Debt as Capital. Credit card debt is also used as Capital. So are auto loans, and now, Life Insurance.. What will those wizards think of next?

It time to call in the bad debts and reveal the fraud. Don't let Bernanke and Geithner defraud us. We are heading to a precipice, and we cannot afford to be weak when the Chickens come home to roost.

[ChiciB1]

97. You Have Me FIRED Up A Bit! I'm Going To Check This Stuff Out, But

right now, since I'm also ONE HUGE TENNIS FAN... I MUST GO WATCH THE UPSET of MY LIFE!

I checked into my IRA, and have decided to withdraw as much as I can without having to pay taxes this year, and told my husband about it earlier!

Not that I have that much, but enough that I can't take it all out without giving some to UNCLE!! That's why I tax deferred in the FIRST PLACE!!

[Grinchie]

99. Getting fired up is the first step to freedom

As far as my 401K. I bailed out years ago on that as well, and took the hit. It was not as painful as I thought it would be, and I had that ability to be Liquid.

Remember, the 401K is a smokescreen and enabler for the Government to assist in the move from Defined Benefits like your parents had, towards as system where you are responsible for your retirement. Ask yourself how many classes are taught in High School regarding Money, Money Management, or even the Basic understanding of Liability vs Asset?

Most High School graduates come out thinking a car is an Asset, when in reality it is a big fat liability. Fuel, Insurance, Maintenance, Registration, Tires, Oil, Stereo, Monster Woofer, Rims, Skinny tires. I think you get the picture.

And, their is really no training about money when kids graduate to college either. They are bombarded by Credit Card offers, saddled with Student loans, etc, etc. Basic money management is just not taught in school. It's the school of hard knocks that teaches young adults the basics, but not after racking up 10's of thousands of dollars in debt. Consumers are in demand, and so are people stuck in the rat race.

The best books that I read that really changed my life were "Everybody Wants Your Money", and "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". The first books shows you all the ways that we are screwed in daily life byt the Corporations, auto dealers, real estate, Banks, Goverment, and others.

Rich Dad, Poor Dad explains in concrete terms how to identify an asset vs liability. When one casts the foundation with the basics, the only way is up, and it reinforces your understanding immensely.

For example, I cashed out my 401K and got dinged for 25% obligatory taxes. However, it gave me the liquidity that enabled for my security for the decade. Now compare that with people that used PayDay Loans, and see that they get dinged for nearly 800% on average for every transaction!

That 25% I paid back then, was minimal to the 16% real annual inflation that we have annually. Oh yes, one more thing, the real gauge of true inflation in my opinion is the cost of Utlities such as Water, Trash service, and Electricity, along with Staples such as bread, bottled water, organic wheat flour, lentils, etc. The government provided charges on your real property taxes for Police, Fire and Ambulance are critical too. Keep an eye on thase and get a true feeling for REAL inflation. The Headline Inflation numbers are trash, and wholly manipulated low in order to show positive GDP growth, which is used to lure suckers into the market, and also limit cost of living adjustments for Government workers, retiree's, Military payments and other defined benefit systems that still remain.

Rememebr that even though you may have 0% allocation in the Stock Market in your 401K, it doesn't mean that it it not all invested in some MBS. or loaned out to another company somewhere, which it probably is. Thats why AIG was so important to bail out, because that's what they were insuring -- the loans of you 401K that must be paid, while the money was on loan to some Gold Speculator, or busy at work depressing gold.

Take control of your money. The less capital they have, the harder it is for their frauds to remain hidden.

Liquidity has been key for the last few years, but the time of Inflation is coming, so be on the alert for hard assets that will help you in your day to day life if things get iffy.

I have no liabilities to Uncle. When you get out of the system, the rat race, the unsustainable consumption, you find that you are able to live on virtually nothing but a few dollars a day. I think our family of two is living extravagantly right now at $450 per month, for two people. And believe me, we can and have lived very comfortably for $200 a month on the farm, where we grow our own food. Most of the expense is for Food, and our taxes are ridiculously low here, due to prop 13.

It took a lot of very hard soul searching to get where we are today, and it takes a lot of study, time and effort to stay abreast of things, but it certainly is exciting and rewarding to be afloat in a sound craft at this point in time.

[ChiciB1]

102. I Don't Mind Cutting Back... That's The Way I've ALWAYS LIVED... Never Was

one who needed jewelery, gadgets or much of what I call "gee-gaws!" My husband is the spender in our family and he makes it difficult for me! He does none of the financial workings in our family, but when I go to him to explain certain things, he thinks I'm out of my mind!

I DID put my foot down about withdrawing money real soon, but it's like pulling teeth! He can "fix" anything, he's an all around "fix-ti" guy, and have almost EVERY tool in the book to do it! He has NEVER had any real education, nor does he care to get more! We lock horns about this so much!

But I will do more research and I appreciate the help you have given me. Now, as for MY taxes where I live... they're OUT OF SIGHT! And just a couple of months ago, the DMV just announced that all tags on vehicles will be DOUBLE next year! Not a percentage, BUT DOUBLE!!

We do have 5 acres we bought as an investment, but we can't sell it right now, unless of course I want to sell it for nothing! We bought it in 1989, and have a certain amount of money invested because of taxes and THE PRICE we paid for it! It's difficult to GIVE it away!

Anyway, within a couple of weeks I will be putting more money in my Credit Union for now! We don't owe that much, but we don't live on a farm or in a low maintenance county!

[Grinchie]

105. Try to make the land productive somehow.

Not knowing what climatic zone you are in, or the terrain, or your availability to water, or it's past history, it's very difficult to suggest and appropriate low cost plan to increase it's productivity, ie Soil quality, ability to support wildlife, planting more trees, thinning trees, brush and getting rid of noxious weeds. If you have dificulty walking the land without gaiters or hightop boots without getting burrs in your socks, then the land needs help. At the minumum, find an appropriate cover crop and throw some seed down starting now. In california we used Hairy and Purple Vetch and New Zealand white clover, along with Creeping red fescure to replace the Star Thistles and Foxtail grasses. The vetch and clover fixes nitrogen, and the fescue reduse soil heat and light, reducing weed germination and protecting the soil form erosion. Creeping Red Fescue can dry to crispy brown and return like magic at the first rain. It's virtually indestricible once it gets estabilshed. and doesn't grow over 12 inches tall, so you don't have to mow.

If you have access to water, determine what it would take to get a steady supply, and see if you can afford it. Water + Land = Magic. Of course, always check zoneing for allowable uses, and mind the natural bhabitats like old dead trees for the birds, woodpeckers, insects, Beehives, etc.. In some ares, they demand you report feral hives. I ignore this and look the other way. The bees have every right to live the way they want, and the Modern Beekeeper is nothing more than a CIFO (Confined Insect Feeding Operation). By the way, I read that they believe that Colony Collapse Disorder istems from the widespread use of Beekeepers of something called HFCS (High Fructose Corn Syrup) which leads to their disorientation. Geez, I wonder what it does to Humans! Lol.

Whatever you do, try and enjoy the land. Take picnics out there with a bow saw and a lopper and clean it up a bit. Make piles of all brush. Do NOT Burn it. Allocate small piless and leave it to rot. Plants will utilize the shade underneath, and the chicky birds will use it for shelter and for bug hunting. I used to burn, but now I am against burning and reuse all trimmings. In a tropical climate, it disappears in less than a year, but in dry climates, it can last a long time.

I'f you have water, plant a few fruit trees, and maybe some multi-purpose trees. You will need to take care of them for 2 to three years until they can survive on their own. Tree's are like little kids, and thats why you rarely see them on farms anymore.

If you need any info, feel free to ask, I'll be happy to help out. The most important thing is to incrementally make the land productive in some way, and a beautiful private park does wonders for the soul, as does watching a forest grow in your lifetime. It happens, I've done it, and it's most enjoyable. Beware of How To Books that distate tools or particular cultrural methods. Their are books out their that are nothing more than USDA Bulletins packaged together. These Bulletins are nothing more than "Idea's" the are submitted for Grant money by certain Corporate Educators. These methods for the most part don't work, and they are counting on you to believe that the method they describe will be used. It's a big scam, and many times is a complete fabrication, but it looks pretty with all the diagrams, precise measurements between rows, specific plant, etc.. It's bogus. For any one of those papers I can show you at least ten farms that have followed the advice, and ten years later are facing huge labor inputs or a collapsed system, despite following the instructions. They are stuck with tractors, innapropriate tools, and have outlayed enormous sums of cash for plant stock.

I learned this first hand while volunteering for a University, and seeing how the professor played the grant system. I also visited every farm I could in the area and recognized the failed projects, all trying desperately to sell out because it turned out to be unsustainable.

My farm looks like a forest. If you didn't know where the crops were, you'd never know they were there. I can leave it for years at a time without any degradation of production if I need to or have to take care of business on the mainland. That's sort of what you want to do, while promoting something of value. Incremental change at your own pace.

[ChiciB1]

115. All Great Ideas... Just ONE HUGE Problem! We Aren't Living On The Land...

AND the land isn't close enough for us to spend extensive periods of time down there. I live in Florida, and NO it's NOT swamp land... it's high and dry! Lots of trees, but would need to be cleared to build on. My very "elderly, 97" mother-in-law lives in the OTHER direction and is now in a Nursing Home. We kept her with us for almost 10 years, but then her Alzheimer's got so severe that the Social Worker told us we could no longer keep her.

She got married rather late in life, and her home can't be sold until she passes away. The trip up to her place is around 2 hours one way, even though she's now in a Nursing Home! We take care of her home up there, and visit on a VERY REGULAR basis! And I know it's been said, you may think you don't have the time, just "make" the time... but REALLY we DON'T have the time to cultivate the property, take care of our own home, and then make sure her home home is taken care of!

My husband retired early, mainly because of his mother because she moved in with us. It WOULD be great to be able to grow our own vegetable, etc., but not exactly practical. I think you live in CA, but even though I have done quite a bit of gardening here at my own home... Florida gardens are difficult! I lived in Texas when I was first married and always had a garden, thought I knew a lot about them, but HERE, it's COMPLETELY different! I could go into some examples, but it would go on and on!

Even tomatoes turned into a nightmare for me. Although, I have been thinking about trying the "hanging" one to see if it would be better. I can't tell you many types of sprays I used to keep either mealy bugs, tomato worms, mites... there's a very long list! Tobacco juice was one I thought was going to do the trick... but NO! Then, even if I actually got a crop growing, birds attacked them... to say nothing of the overwhelming heat that blistered them! And that's just tomatoes! I'm sure you could give me lots of hints about growing, but for now I'll have to put even a "small" garden at my "base" home on hold! My mother-in-law always said she would live to be a hundred! I'm almost a believer now! She takes NO MEDS, has SEVERE ALZHEIMER'S and is nothing more than a body that breathes. And NO, I'm not being harsh, nor am can one call me a "deather" but my husband & I have talked about this and NEITHER ONE OF US would want to be in her situation. Even IF she has no clue!

And this is going to sound even harsher... Medicaid now pays for her care, and we have to pay for the upkeep of her home! I don't think either one of us is getting a good return on our money! But then, you would have to see her in person to understand. She weighs only 91 lbs and is unable to even sit up anymore! I'm a "spiritual" type person, having left the Catholic Church a long time ago, and I may go to HELL (if that exists) for saying what I just said. But, you can't deny... there IS some truth to what I've said!

So for now, I MUST focus most on my IRA and try to make the best choices possible!

[eilen]

113. Holy Crap!

Okay, I have been racking my brain for the past few years trying to figure out how to withdraw from the multi-national corporate game and live a more direct-use economy. I have been extremely frustrated by the difficulty of this. I try to purchase mostly second hand and thrift store to deprive corporations from making any money off me or purchase MIA when I can.

Plus, I have read about Weston Price and Sally Fallon's cookbook etc. I am totally onboard with a diet that is hereditarily/traditional and locally based BUT, have not been able to deal with it as it is well nigh impossible to source many of the key foods (such as raw milk) without burning up hours of time driving and gallons of gas-- time I don't have. But I do try to keep a good supply of fermented foods in my diet. I can't afford a total organic foods diet but am working on eating less...

Anyway, is there a board or blog where this kind of stuff is discussed in more depth?

[AnneD]

39. That's what you get.....

for not reading the fine print.:evilgrin:

[defendandprotect]

43. Damn ...!!

When will I ever learn - !!

Thanks for the laugh --

:)

[BadGimp]

33. re:"the U.S. gov. is wary of challenging the financial industry because it is politically difficult"

We've crossed the Corporatetocracy Rubicon when experts make statements like this in such a matter of fact manner.

All Big Money needs now is for the Supreemes to overturn the ban on corporate money in elections (which they are close to doing as we speak), and corportations won't even bother pretending that we live in a democracy.

The right wing extremist have been the biggest fools in this slow death of Democracy. They are the ones who voted in the front men for Big Money who then nominated Alito, Roberts, Thomas, Sclaia etal, while the right wing crazies cheered what will soon be death of their own dreams.

[Truth2Tell]

35. and frankly that's an understatement

of major magnitude. A more accurate statement might be that the U.S. government is "wary" of challenging the "financial industry" because it is wholly owned by it, and challenging those who rule the Western world would be a truly revolutionary undertaking, with all that entails.

[Ghost Dog]

55. "Truly revolutionary undertaking." If anyone can do it, I reckon USA can.

Lets go for it.

[redqueen]

63. Indeed.

They have owned our government for around 175 years.

“If the people only understood the rank injustice of our Money and Banking system, there would be a revolution before morning.”
- Andrew Jackson

[fasttense]

56. You know corporations no longer employ most Americans anymore.

Even the banking/Wall Street/Insurance firms don't employ enough people to get the American people to vote in the corporate interests. They have become politically powerful because American voters were/are ignoring them.

It use to be that corporations could count on Americans to vote in the corporate interest because most Americans worked for corporations. They had good paying manufacturing jobs and align themselves with corporations no matter what the Unions said. But now corporations employ more people in foreign land then they do in America. By cutting out good paying jobs in the US, they have also cut out their voting base and consumer market.

Do you know what the major occupation fields in the US were in May 2008 (most recent data I could find at the bureau of labor statistic)? Office and Administration work was the #1 field. The second largest was Sales. The 3rd largest was Food Preparation and Serving. Secretaries, sales clerks and waitresses don't align themselves with corporate interests. They may work for a corporate chain but they don't usually identify themselves with the corporate image because they have shitty little jobs that barely support them.

Also notice that males are losing their jobs at a faster rate than females. Males are more likely to vote Republicon and in the corporate interest. Well who normally does the jobs of a secretary, sales clerk and waiter/waitress? Those poorly paying occupations are normally filled by women.

Anyway this economy can not be sustain by secretaries, sales clerks and waitresses. Good paying jobs sustained the American consumer market and the corporate voting base. But no anymore.

[CoffeeCat]

82. No kidding...

....all of those church-going, little-old-ladies who voted for George Bush and that nice man, Dick Cheney--are
going to be the angriest of all. The Republicans, especially the Evangelicals and the Conservatives--have been
the most duped in this whole charade.

Many Independents and Democrats have been watching the thieves plot our demise for sometime.

I can't even imagine how beside themselves the unsuspecting Bush-sympathizers are going to be.

When we say, "Told ya so!" will it even matter?

[Grinchie]

95. I think we are already seeing it in the Town Hallers

Denial and Transferrance seem to be the groupthink of the day, simply because it is so painful.

Everybody yells at them for asking, Where were you when bush signed the patriot act, and list all the other crimes against humanity perpetrated by his regime, and this hurts them like hell.

It hurts so much, because they repressed their concern so effectively, that it now erupts as irration hate and projections against Obama. Unfortunately, Obama is a fully bonifide eneabler of this anger by proceeding along an identical course, shielding Bush and Cheney, and basically following the Continuity of Government directed by the Shadow Government, whisch is the Frankenstein Monster of the National Security Act of 1947 that has gotten up off the table, killed his master, and is now terrorizing the world.

I posted a video to the recent UFO Documentary titled "Out of the Blue" in another thread here. It focuses on the recent events that a irrefutable proof of UFO sigthings by thousands of credible witnesses, and details the COMETA report, which has been blacked out in the United States. In fact, I didn't know about the COMETA report until yesterday.

The fact of the matter is that many countries are now releasing their data on sightings of UFO's in the hopes that global cooperation would reveal more information. The United States is the only one holding out and perpetuating the blackout for whatever reasons. The documentary is based on the Disclosure Project, which has gathered hundreds of ex-military, Contractors, Civilians, Pilots, Air Traffic Controller, and others that are credible, and are willing to go on record under oath. Many of these people are still under non-disclosure othes to the Government, and could be whisked away, but they feel strongly enough to speak out, especially since other nations are releasing their files, such as France and Britain, Russia and the recent Mexico incident which you can watch here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBc5Fv4xFIo

How does this apply to the economy? Or even to fixing the economy? What would it mean to the world if it were found that amazing energy technologies developed in relation to crashed UFO's, or perhaps independant dsicoveries based of Scientists seeing the mazing cabapilities of these crafts, and building them with black budgets, were being held back for Military purposes, while at the same time, enabling the unsustainable economic policies to continue until the earth is a poisoned, depleted husk?

How would you reveal that the amount of suffering and expense of the Cold War was all for naught? The implications are enormous, and I'm sure that they are trying to figure out a way to maintain control and shape media opinion so they are presented as the saviors or the world, and can maintain power for the next century.

We are at a definitive crossroads, and everyone needs to educate themselves on the connections that tie together mankind, and expose the secret government that controls these technologies and demand open source sharing of this knowledge. Otherwise we are doomed.

The economy is a distraction to keep us misinformed, scared and hungry. Don't fall for it. Don't fall for some sudden "External Global Threat" such as reagan commonly spoke up in the 80's, as he piled Trillions into Star Wars.

They won't fix the economy because the end game is afoot. They have no intention on fixing something that was planned to finance many trillions of Black Projects around the world. It's go time.

[dotymed]

37. I campaigned for Obama

after Kucinich was kidnapped. I honestly do not think that he
has the courage, or maybe even the desire, to do the things
that we all know, need to be done. If the banks are to big to
fail...they are too big. Universal health Care for all is the
only affordable and fair "fix" for our health
system,bush must be prosecuted....it goes on and on.

[lovuian]

41. there is no way Americans are going to pay this

and if Congress thinks that they will well

some one is on drugs

[TommyPaine]

44. Too big to fail? More like too big to fuck with.

These mammoth financial institutions are like The Blob...absorb and grow, grow some more, get so big that nobody can kill it. As for BoA, they're just atrocious. On top of their unethical behavior, soaring profits, and executive bonuses, they have the temerity to keep increasing banking fees *and* add additional ones? :puke:

[MichaelHarris]

46. Over-produce, overcharge, over finance and

shit fails. It's the new capitalism.

[Umbral]

48. Hey, when the shit hits the fan, it's always nice to have someone around to say 'I told ya so'.

Since that's about all Stiglitz' warning is good for.

[CoffeeCat]

60. And you damn well know it will crash on Obama's...

...watch.

All of those Wall Streeters and corporatists "advising" Obama into his own demise.

This whole thing was a house of cards---that fell just a bit too early while the Bush Administration was
still at the helm.

It will all come crashing down during the Obama administration and he'll be blamed.

Too bad, Obama is listening to the very people who orchestrated this mess. Now is the time to go lone wolf
and make some bold moves. Either that or they crash it on him and Obama is a destroyed, one-term President
with a financial collapse on his watch.

It's so unfair...but it is what it is.

[mvd]

64. The banks, education, and Afghanistan are the issues getting my..

lowest approval concerning President Obama. It's just hard to get new ideas when your economics team is one-sided; he needs fresh voices on his team.

[mvd]

65. However, to be fair to Obama..

the Bush misadministration rushed through that huge bailout that had no strings attached. I think it was Bush's last gift to Wall Street. That can't be blamed on Obama.

[Romulox]

68. How did Senator Obama vote on the TARP bill, hmmmm? nt

[mvd]

70. I disagree with the vote, but neither..

can we really say he would have constructed it the same way if up to him.

[Romulox]

71. Then-Senator Obama lobbied HEAVILY for the TARP bill...

The quid pro quo was that Bush got to spend half of it, Obama the other half. Obama was at no time a bystander in any of this. :hi:

[mvd]

72. Do you have a link?

I just remember Obama saying we needed a bill because of an emergency situation.

[Romulox]

74. Here's a couple:

Obama Lobbies Senators on TARP Money, Stimulus Plan

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aDRI3F1soZ8M&refer=home

Bush to Seek Rest of TARP Money At Obama's Request

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28619883

[mvd]

76. OK, but that's for the rest of the money

I may not agree with Obama's handling of it, but he didn't craft the original bill.

[Romulox]

77. He voted for the TARP, lobbied his colleagues to vote for it, and spent half of it.

Good grief, he is not a bystander in this process, he's the President!

[mvd]

78. I didn't say he was a bystander, but neither..

do I think he's at fault as much as Bush.

[Romulox]

80. Bush didn't vote for the TARP bill. But Obama did!

I haven't a clue what "at fault as much as Bush" means. I hold the President accountable for his own actions, not those of the last President.

[mvd]

83. But Bush got the bill he wanted

Not something Obama crafted. Sorry, I just don't see it as equal.

[CoffeeCat]

75. I think Obama was introduced to his economic team...

...while he listened to them tell him how it was going to go down.

I don't think he had a choice.

[Romulox]

67. Obama has been Wall Street's most enthusiastic booster. He deserves the blame. nt

[Grinchie]

96. I was thinking that way too, but in reality, the timing made no difference

Obama still gets the excuse to wriggle out of real reform due to bugetary restrictions, but on the other hand, we see him staying the course geo politically, and by the implantation of the DLC into the Administration.

If people don't see the Continuity here, then they are totally blinded by the American Idol plague that afflicts most Americans.

There are unwilling, and unable to look at verious sources of information from across the globe and perform decent analysys. They are unable to do so, because they have been taught not to. They are convinced that they "Are Not Qualified", and this is exactly what the MSM wants.

They want a mass of people with Homogenous opinions and psychic profiles that are easy to manipulate into whatever position they feel is necessary. The people that resist, are oultiers, and will be ridiculed, outcast, and excluded from the "Group". Exclusion is poison to the frightened american. They can't stand it, so they have to conform, or else.

Society is dependent upon this to function, and Government have been exploiting this technique for centuries in one form or another.

In order to get real change, people are going to need to go against the grain for a while, and it won't be easy.

[xchrom]

61. you cannot separate the political powers in the white house, the house

and the senate from the powerful finanacialists.

it will take another crisis -- at least as big as this one -- to get people realize the take over corporations have foisted on all of us.

[valerief]

62. Why do we even call them banks? We should call them the Take The Money And Run corporations. nt

[TrogL]

66. Canada has five or six large banks

They did not fail (significantly) because proper checks and balances were in place (pun intended).

[Romulox]

69. Doesn't basic economics teach us that backstopping bad decisions with taxpayer dollars

leads to "efficiency" (where "efficiency" is defined by the famous rich-get-richer formulation.) All you economic luddites don't get it: the free market is only efficient when the government covers any losses!

[wordpix]

103. these are not regular banks---they're investment banks, they made risky investments & we the people

"had" to bail them out, or "our economy" would have been in ruins.

Now we know that taxpayers had to bail out investment banks to keep their execs riding high with millions in salaries and bonuses, even as they gave many of their workers pink slips. :puke:

[ProudDad]

110. Buy Local, Buy Used or Don't buy at all!

Starve the BEAST...

Relocalize.

Local economies, downsize your life...

Don't buy anything you don't absolutely have to from the corporate monsters!

www.transitionus.org

[ProudDad]

111. It's the population, stupid!

“We’re going into an extended period of weak economy, of economic malaise,” Stiglitz said. The U.S. will “grow but not enough to offset the increase in the population,” he said, adding that “if workers do not have income, it’s very hard to see how the U.S. will generate the demand that the world economy needs.”

And Americans and Europeans are the worst:

"Americans continually find themselves in the position of having killed someone to avoid sharing a meal which turns out to be too large to eat alone."

Too many big-brained bipeds without the collective sense to stop breeding!

This will be the epitaph for Mother Nature's experiment with the big-brained biped ...

"They bred and they bred and they were too fucking stupid to stop"...

Bye, bye, big-brained bipeds...(and most large air-breathing mammals)

Good luck, 6 foot Cockroaches...