Fallen soldier thought Afghan mission 'useless': family

[CHIMO]

Source: CBC News

Family members of the latest Canadian soldier killed in Afghanistan told a Quebec City newspaper that the young soldier considered the mission "a bit useless."

Nicolas Couturier, brother of Pte. Jonathan Couturier, told Le Soleil that the 23-year-old soldier had mixed emotions about being in Afghanistan.

"That war, he thought it was a bit useless, that they were wasting their time there," he was quoted telling Le Soleil.

"He didn't talk about it," Nicolas told the newspaper. "He was positive, but at certain moments, let's just say he was fed up."



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/18/couturier-ramp-ceremony-jonathan.html

---

Pte. Jonathan Couturier, 23, died in an IED strike southwest of Kandahar city on Sept. 17. (DND/Canadian Press)
Last Updated: Friday, September 18, 2009 | 4:58 PM ET

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. Those faces........

They're children.

Why is anyone sending children to die in the Middle East FOR NO FUCKING GOOD REASON?

That face. What a handsome young man, and he looks so sad........................

[CHIMO]

2. They All Are

The same.

"How many years must the cannonballs fly..."

I guess the answer in part is as long as we let them?

[tocqueville]

10. soldiers are always young

or else we would be sending 80 years-old

[yurbud]

44. the older you get, the more it seems like a sin akin kiddy porn--only the kid ends up dead or

dismembered.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

3. He look so sad in that pic.

What a waste. :-(

[CHIMO]

4. Yes

And all those before.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/casualties/list.html
Last Updated September 17, 2009

As in all wars before.

[Treo]

5. Peaceful intentions are wonderful

until you run up against somebody W/ a weapon.

Condolences to the family

[crim son]

7. A person with peaceful intentions ought not join the military.

I'll never understand why they do. Maybe they fight fewer bullshit wars in Canada? I don't think so. Could he not find other work? Did he believe it was his duty?

My children will not be in the military, not unless they're drafted. It's been a long time since we've fought a meaningful battle and this is something young people must understand.

[atreides1]

11. Most Soldiers Don't Want War

But we understand that as long as there are those who present a threat someone has to stand watch.


We enlist for different reasons, because of the job market, the offers of "free" college money, patriotism, duty,
and some because they believe that they can help make a difference.

Too many have died, not by choice but because the civilians who make the rules have fucked it all up. As long as the electorate keeps putting flag waving, chair borne rangers into office, instead of men and women who really want a solution to the problems we face, then young men like Pte. Jonathan Couturier will keep marching off to wars that are "useless", and coming home in flagged draped coffins.

Gilbert C.Gordon
Sergeant US Army
1978-1991
Desert Storm Veteran

[crim son]

13. I understand what you're saying, but a person would have to be

alarmingly ignorant of american history to believe that if they join the military, they will not find themselves involved one way or another, in a distasteful, unnecessary or immoral conflict.

I'm a pacifist, period and I am intensely suspicious of our military culture, with all due respect to the good and decent people who are part of it.

[undeterred]

15. Well said.

[Treo]

16. pacifism is only possible if you have someone else to protect you

“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
George Orwell

[Critters2]

18. Nonsense. True pacifism is willing to take the risks necessary to live

without being protected by the threat of violence. Depending on someone else's violence for safety is not pacifism. We who are pacifists understand the risks of living in a violent world. We don't ask violent people to protect us.

[Treo]

21. Does that mean

You never call the police?

Whether you "ask violent people to protect you" or not you till live under their protection. The whole "Lion lying down W/ the Lamb" thing only works if you add fresh lambs now and again

[Critters2]

22. That's what it means. Police don't keep the "peace". They threaten violence. Professionally.

I know that scares you, but some of us are trying to live a new way. Read the works of Rene Girard to understand this.

[Treo]

25. I don't call the police either

I take responsibility for my own safety. I'm not scared by your intent to live peacefully, I think you're a fool for trusting to the kindness of your attacker for your safety but I'm not scared of you. Your different way isn't going to work till every one in the world agrees and ifthat ever happens some one will come along, realize you have no intention of standing up for yourself and take what ever they want.

[Critters2]

37. I don't trust the kindness of my attacker, either. I just am not that afraid of death.

And yes, my different way will depend on everyone coming to see it as the only way to move away from destruction. I think that can happen. The key is to teach empathy for victims.

Oh, and as for taking what they want...they can have it. I'd rather have peace and kindness than whatever someone else wants to take from me. Shared desire--two people wanting the same thing--is the root of all violence. The way to prevent violence is to NOT want what someone else wants.

[Treo]

38. Sounds like Buddhist teaching

And I respect your willingness to die for your beliefs. I just don't share them I want my freedom I'm talking about my personal not national freedom) and my life I also want my safety and if someone else wants my freedom, life or safety then yes we are going to have a violent outcome. maybe I have more bad karma to work off than you do

[izquierdista]

26. A personal question for Treo

Judging from your posts on this thread, you've had the shit scared out of you by some war-monger and fallen for their "security! security! everyone hide under the bed" screed hook, line, and sinker. So what is it going to take for you to rationally analyze danger from your fellow human?

I'll admit that history is full of frightened people building castles, ramparts, bunkers, and forts to protect them from hostiles, but don't you see this as primitive? To "visit violence" on others is uncivilized. Civilized people have courts and the rule of law to protect them, not armies. In civilized societies, even the police don't carry deadly weapons (like in the UK), because the populace has been more schooled in the techniques of pacifism than in the arts of war. As history advances, fewer and fewer societies live like the Spartans, schooling their boys from age 7 to be warriors, and more and more teach their children to be tolerant and open to discussion, agreement and the rule of law.

Do you know the famous quote by Hermann Goering about how to get the average person to support war? If so, what have you done personally to make sure that you don't fall for such bullshit?

[Treo]

28. A personal answer for izquierdista

I am a realist , my first tour of duty was Germany and I was lucky enough to have a commander who understood the value of history. So he organized bus tours for us all over Germany I got to go to Dachau and see first hand what non-violent pacifism will get you.

History is full of more than frightened people building ramparts and bunkers, it’s also full of Mongol hordes, Panzer Gruppen, People’s Armies, and Nightriders who are willing to prey on the weak. Courts and laws don’t stop criminals or anyone willing to use violence to get what they want.

And in the “civilized “ countries where the cops don’t carry guns (that’s changing in the UK BTW) the criminals do.

Your pacifism is wonderful on paper but it will get you killed or enslaved in the real world

And no, I am unfamiliar W/ the Goering quoteperhapss you could post it

[izquierdista]

35. From a cell in Nuremburg

Goering let the truth be said:

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

Remember that the next time you are wont to denounce pacifism as being "wonderful on paper". Better to denounce the patriots on both sides who want to kill each other.

[Thothmes]

39. The UK has an Army, a Royal Navy, a Royal Air Force and a Marine Corp

[Lagomorph]

42. Your avatar disagrees with you...

As the war continued, Guevara became an integral part of the rebel army and "convinced Castro with competence, diplomacy and patience."<8> Guevara set up factories to make grenades, built ovens to bake bread, taught new recruits about tactics, and organized schools to teach illiterate campesinos to read and write. Moreover, Guevara established health clinics, workshops to teach military tactics, and a newspaper to disseminate information. The man who three years later would be dubbed by Time Magazine: "Castro's brain", at this point was promoted by Fidel Castro to Comandante (commander) of a second army column.

As the only other ranked Comandante besides Fidel Castro, Guevara was an extremely harsh disciplinarian who unhesitatingly shot defectors. Deserters were punished as traitors, and Guevara was known to send execution squads to hunt down those seeking to go AWOL. As a result, Guevara became feared for his brutality and ruthlessness. During the guerrilla campaign, Guevara was also responsible for the execution, often summarily, of a number of men accused of being informers, deserters or spies.

He seemed to have a much larger appetite for war than this Canadian.

Your supporting non violence in word while idolizing violence in your avatar leaves me confused about your true beliefs.

[Treo]

45. Izzy supports violence that he/she approves of

read his/ her post to me about how wonderful the atomic bombing of Japan was

[Lagomorph]

46. Oh crap....

...another one of those.

Always willing to pick up a gun to get what they want, or to keep you from getting what you want.

[Treo]

47. More like

always willing to make YOU pick up a gun yo get what they want. Judging by your ribbon I'd guess you're familiar W/ the type

[ShortnFiery]

30. I was honored to serve in the military. However, I didn't know then what I know now.

Still, I don't blame the soldiers. Instead I honor their service. Many of these young people come from rural backgrounds. Even with decent high school educations, they are not exposed to alternative views ... well, other than the ones that show American Foreign Policy in the best light.

It's the OLD Congress-critters and Presidents who send these young men and women to kill and die. They should not be sent for mere geopolitical advantages nor for the corporate lust for control of the last remaining large oil reserves on earth.

My family was brought out of poverty and into the middle class thanks to the US Army and that wonderful post service GI Bill. It's the LEADERS, the arrogant legislators and General Officers who are to blame for the INAPPROPRIATE use of our military forces.

[izquierdista]

14. Looking for "threats"

Maybe the privates don't want war, but the generals sure do, or they would be out on their ass looking for a job. So they get in league with the politicians to look for "threats", and if they don't find any, they make them up. Either make them up, or look for ones half way around the world and swear up and down that the threat will " follow us home". The Soviets were a threat, the Sandinistas were a threat, there's a threat from submarines, and missiles from the air are threats. It's easy to be threatened when you have feelings of inadequacy and are too inarticulate to negotiate an agreement.

If you do come to an agreement, no one has to "stand watch". Long stretches of the US-Canadian border are unguarded, because we have good agreements with our northern neighbor. There is no agreement between poor Mexicans and relatively wealth Americans, so the frightened see a threat and want a watch posted every kilometer along that border.

I'm glad to see that Obama sees no "threat" from Russian missiles and has nixed the Missile Defense Shield. Since he couldn't see a threat, the Russians don't see one to Kaliningrad either and are going to suspend their plans.

[Treo]

17. When my unit got orders for Saudi Arabia

Everyone in the unit wanted to go

Agreements only last until one side or the other doesn't agree any more Hitler had a Non-Aggression pact W/ Russia that was as good as gold right up until he decided to attack

EDIT Spelling

[izquierdista]

20. You miss the point

Everyone like to travel and go on an adventure, sure, it would be fun to be send to a country where there is no war going on. And the military takes advantage of that poor risk analysis of late teens by sending them where they can easily get their head blown off.

Calling a "Non-Agression Pact" an agreement doesn't make it so. If you read your history, neither side to that pact had any intent of honoring it -- both sides were just buying more time for themselves.

[Critters2]

23. The greatest cause of WW2 was the retribution extracted after WW1.

Reparations destroyed the German economy and created resentment that Hitler drew on to re-militarize Germany. This is why it's important to find a new way to deal with conflicts.

[izquierdista]

33. And that's why we have the EU now

After fighting 3 destructive wars in 75 years, the French and the Germans knew a fourth would exterminate them. Now, their disagreements are settled through discussion.

[Treo]

24. I think YOU miss the point

Every soldier in my unit knew we wee going to participate in a war and they couldn't wait (their words) to "kick ass and take names" in that sense the privates wanted war.

A "non aggression pact " is an agreement that's exactly what it is. Both sides agree not to attack each other. The fact that neither side intended to abide by it simply illustrates the futility of backing agreements W/ paper. It's the same as declaring an area to be a "gun free zone" it only lasts until some one W/ a gun shows up.

In the age old battle of good intentions Vs. cold steel, Cold steel wins every time

EDIT Typo

[izquierdista]

27. They want to "kick ass"

Little do they realize they are going to get their head blown off.

Your thinking is very primitive -- might makes right. Cold steel seldom wins against intelligence. The Japanese had tons and tons of cold steel in World War II, but the Americans had the intelligence to make grams and grams of hot plutonium.

[Treo]

29. You hypocrite

The Japanese had tons and tons of cold steel in World War II, but the Americans had the intelligence to make grams and grams of plutonium.

And the Americans took their grams of plutonium and built the most devastating weapons system known to human kind and detonated it on two cities full of civilians. So is your "pacifistic" answer to a club a BIGGER club?

The only reason people like you are free is because "primitives" like me are willing to fight your wars

[ShortnFiery]

31. Then make them "just" wars. Not follies for the entertainment of the Power Elite.

You both are right. Out of Basic School or OCS, most young soldiers revel in their combat missions. However, as we age into our 30s and 40s, MOST people become more thoughtful of violence and combat.

Young people are full of energy and want to believe that the wars they are trained and tasked to fight are righteous. However, many soldiers, especially those in their 30s and 40s, would much rather TRAIN for war than have those skills tested.

[izquierdista]

32. I give you permission to quit

These aren't "my" wars, I thought Gulf War I was a lie and protested then, I thought Afghanistan was unnecessary 8 years ago, and I protested the invasion of Iraq (not that anyone in government listened). Do you understand? I don't think you do.

When presented with unrelenting violence, there is no pacifist answer. In that way, violence and militarism are like rabies, there is no cure for the disease, only a bullet to the head. Sometimes the rabid are their own executioners (Hitler, Himmler), the rest of the time an everyday Joe has to do the task and it affects them the rest of their lives. There were a lot of World War II veterans who saw and did unspeakable horrors, but they regretted everything they had to do and did not take glee in "kicking ass".

And how should intelligence react when confronted with violence? If violence is unavoidable, intelligence has to summon up greater violence to prevail. When a bully shakes his fist in your face, you pull a knife on him; when a mugger flashes a knife, you show him your gun; when you are attacked by the world's largest armada, you develop the atom bomb.

Don't tell me I'm "free" either. In this country, I'm NOT free to marry someone of the same sex and it's not "free" to get medical care or express an opinion. The only people you fight for are the moneyed people who want to control the oil in Iraq. You should read more of what Smedley Butler has written. Here is a link to Butler's 'War Is A Racket', maybe it will open your eyes: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

[Treo]

36. So violence is ok so long as YOU approve

of the cause? And I'm not just talking about militarism I'm talking about personal pacifism , try that shit W/ a rapist or a home invader and see how far you get. I'm not defending the Iraq war I think it's stupid to send Americans to die to protect Iraq when we can't even secure our borders here at home. that said I happen to think any country (or person)who refuses to act in their own defense will be dead or a slave in very short order.

And I still think YOU are a hypocrite

[icnorth]

40. At least in ancient wars

a lot of "generals" were leading troops at the front not pushing from the back.

[crim son]

6. The young man had a soulful face.

It's impossible not to imagine my own children in the same position. It's wrong. It's just wrong. RIP, Jonathan. :cry:

[stickernation]

8. war pigs

"Politicians hide themselves away.
They only started the war.
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor."

- black sabbath

[Critters2]

19. +1 nt

[aquart]

9. Astute young man. Not the kind any nation can afford to lose.

[go west young man]

12. His facial expression says it all. His expression says "why?"

[IndianaGreen]

34. Tell that to Canada's PM Harker, UK's PM Brown, and President Obama

People are dying, military and civilian alike, because those three yahoos refuse to admit they have plunged their respective countries into an unwinnable quagmire.

[Lagomorph]

41. There are few soldiers who...

...experience the waste of war and come away with a desire to perpetuate it.

[yurbud]

43. kick