U.N. 'doesn't smell of sulfur anymore,' says Chavez

[NeoConsSuck]

Source: CNN.COM

UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- Drawing on 2006 remarks in which he compared former U.S. President George Bush to the devil, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, speaking at the United Nations Thursday, said, "It doesn't smell like sulfur anymore."

In a rambling speech at the U.N. General Assembly, Chavez spoke highly of current President Obama, saying he is an "intelligent man" and comparing him to President John F. Kennedy.

"I hope God will protect Obama from the bullets that killed Kennedy," he said. "I hope Obama will be able to look and see, genuinely see, what has to be seen and bring about a change."

Three years ago, Chavez spoke at the gathering the day after Bush spoke, and said the lectern "still smells of sulfur."

But on Thursday he looked around the podium and said, "It doesn't smell of sulfur. It's gone. No, it smells of something else. It smells of hope."


Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/09/24/chavez.venezuela.united.nations/index.html

---

2nd day in a row CNN used the word 'rambling' to describe a speech by a non-capitalist. It's their little way of swaying their readers not to take the speech seriously.

Hey, Bolton never rambled. He was succint, and I paraphrase: "Fuck the UN, Fuck Peace, and Fuck Diplomacy".

[Common Sense Party]

1. Perhaps the non-capitalists could be more succinct.

You know, take a speech class or a Dale Carnegie course.

Tighten things up a bit. Structure.

[timeforpeace]

16. Smell of sulfur? Guess he would know.

[onehandle]

2. That's nice. Go sit down, President for Life. nt

[harmonicon]

12. A person is more likely to be president for life if they are repeatedly elected by a majority...

.. or citizens in a free and fair election.

Oh, move along, nothing to see here.
















psst: FDR

[Pavulon]

31. Please do not compare that shitstain to fdr

so many problems with that. hugo is leaving office castro style or when his successor paints a pollack with his brain using a beretta as a brush. not handing over the power he has now.

[troubledamerican]

37. How manly, advocating assassination of a democratically-elected president.

[ProudDad]

46. WTF???

Can't you read???

[L. Coyote]

50. There are very good reasons to compare Chavez and FDR.

Hugo will likely have 12 years as President of an American democracy, for example.
Venezuela's democratic constitution allows two successive 6 year terms.

Huge is immensely popular, and a progressive liberal.

I could go on at length.

And, I would ask, Are you a hero to millions?
Who are you to call the President of another nation by such an insult?
What have you done for the people of your nation?

[TheWatcher]

73. But, But, he thinks War With Iran would be good. That's cool, right?

And he seems to get erotic arousal from pontificating about how our mighty Military can pound most small nations into dust with little resistance. (America: FUCK YEAH!)

That's Patriotic, right?

And he DID stay at A Holiday Inn Express Last Night.

[Pavulon]

79. Well I am not a former coup leader like chavez, and

i think good leaders turn power over at some point other than when they die.

[ronnie624]

89. You can't possibly be *that* confused.

For what reason would the democratically elected president of Venezuela "turn power over" before he has been defeated in an election?

[Pavulon]

95. Well then I guess he can just stay around forever

if he never has to transition power. Works well for him.

[harmonicon]

94. except for FDR, right?

Or did he suck?

[Pavulon]

96. Is VZ in the middle of a two front world war?

no than please do not compare a shitstain to a great president who would have left had he not died.

[ronnie624]

103. Your remarks assume

that Chavez has a current obligation to leave office, before he has been defeated in an election. They are completely divorced from reality. There is no logic in your position.

[Pavulon]

106. Sounds like a great deal..

when he leaves I will be able to determine his impact on the country.

[Hardrada]

57. Your remarks are ,as usual ,as despicable as they are glib.

[harmonicon]

64. And just how did FDR "hand over power"?

Let me think..... oh, yeah, I remember.

[Pavulon]

80. I ams sure he was going to just stay in office for ever..

i mean that would be great if guys like bush could just keep getting elected.

[ronnie624]

90. Bush would not have been elected in the last election,

According to approval polls, he would have been soundly defeated.

That's democracy for you.

[EFerrari]

101. Bush was never elected once. nt

[IndianaGreen]

82. Uribe is the real President for Life, but you all conservative Dems love the murderous Colombian

because the only thing that counts to you people is whether a nation's leader gives carte blanche to transnational corporations that in turn will fatten your investment portfolios.

[fascisthunter]

107. kaboom

very good reply

[Richardo]

3. Maybe it's because they ramble.

Maybe it's because we have to listen to insane manifestos, fantasy-based conspiracy theories and three year old retreads of lame insults for hours at a time every time one of these loser opens his yap.

It's bad enough from RW radio, I don't need it from world despots also.

Put a sock in it, Hugo.

[Swagman]

4. despot ? I thought he was popularly elected

[Richardo]

17. they're not mutually exclusive you know

[EFerrari]

28. So are you claiming the Venezuelan people are stupid

and keep re-electing a despot in clean elections?

[ProudDad]

47. Facts don't matter to the knee-jerk Hugo haters... (n/t)

[wroberts189]

52. I keep looking for a reason for what the hell their problem is...

Poverty has plummeted.
Literacy has skyrocketed.
They got better health care then we do.

On and on and on... and he has made an incredible effort to engage the US and Obama. As well as bring peace to South America.

And we just tried to overthrow their country according to ex-pres Carter.

The state dept. just admitted they are paying people to slam him in online discussion boards and in media.

Yet he is the bad guy... they never have anything significant to back up why we all just need to jump on board and hate him.. Nothing

And Bush was like a Devil ..probably did smell of rotten eggs.


On edit we also buy a ton of oil from him and he gave poor US families a discount during the gas price craziness. Just ask Joe Kennedy.

[ProudDad]

53. There are clues on this thread

they don't like non-capitalists...

They HATE Socialists...

They didn't learn to share back in kindergarten...

And I suspect the efficacy of their early toilet training...

[wroberts189]

54. And the irony of it all is that he was praising Obama's leadership. nt

[Captain Hilts]

6. Home run, Richardo.

I've spent a LOT of time studying non-capitalists and there are several I would enjoy hearing from, but not those two clowns.

[inna]

30. what "two clowns" are you referring to?

[L. Coyote]

10. Bush was a despot. Hugo is a Liberator!

FYI. Despotism is a form of government by a single authority, either the individual despot, or a tightly knit group, which rules with absolute political power, like the Bush Neocons.

FYI. La República Bolivariana de Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela) is a democracy that actually elected their President with real votes, unlike Bush being appointed by tightly knit group which rules with absolute political power, like the Five Neocon Supremes.

The Venezuelan constitution of 1999 prescribes a government based on republican, democratic, and federalist principles divided into executive, legislative, and judicial branches, with a popularly elected legislature. In 1999 Hugo pushed for radical reforms, and a constituent assembly was soon elected to draft a new constitution; it was adopted by referendum in December of that year. The constitution was modeled on that of the Fifth French Republic, reformed the judiciary system, promised to expand personal liberties, formally acknowledged the rights of indigenous peoples, and changed the country’s name from Republic of Venezuela to Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

Executive power is vested in the president, who serves a six-year term and is eligible for reelection to a second consecutive term. As is typical among Latin American nations, the president wields a greater amount of power than either the judicial or legislative branches of government. In addition to acting as the head of state, the president is the commander in chief of the armed forces. The president appoints an executive vice president and a Council of State, the members of which act as advisers and ministers.

[Richardo]

18. Hugo's an autocratic blowhard

Describe the Venezuelan government as peachily as you like - you know what's on paper is often at odds with real world governance.

[Peace Patriot]

20. Venezuelans have never been more empowered, more politically active, and more

satisfied with their government and the direction of their country in their entire history, than now!

And I can cite chapter and verse--numerous polls, numerous elections, numerous up-trending stats and economic data. Can you? Can you cite one instance in which the Chavez government has violated the Venezuelan Constitution, has broken the law or has harmed rather than enhanced all civil rights?

You say: "Describe the Venezuelan government as peachily as you like - you know what's on paper is often at odds with real world governance." So please tell us, how are they at odds?

[CalvinandHobbes]

59. How about ..

shutting down any radio or tv station that disagrees with him? Is that democratic?

[Peace Patriot]

67. Chavez has NOT "shut down any radio or tv station that disagrees with him"!

Where on earth did you get that idea?

The Venezuelan broadcast media remains one of the most venomously rightwing media establishments in the world! Private corporations use the PUBLIC airwaves there to constantly vilify Chavez in ways that are even worse than our own media and its treatment of Obama and other moderate or liberal leaders and ideas. Chavez denied a license renewal to use the PUBLIC airwaves to ONE global corporate TV station, RCTV, which had actively participated in the violent rightwing military coup against the elected government in 2002, and had committed many other violations of Venezuelan law as well. ONE TV station! The government then allotted that PUBLIC airwave to independent producers to encourage minority access to the PUBLIC airwaves. This is a right and a duty that every government in the world maintains--the right to regulate the PUBLIC airwaves in the PUBLIC interest. We should be doing more of it here! We once had a much better journalism scene in this country due to the "Fairness Doctrine," which required fair and balanced coverage of public events and issues on TV/Radio (which in turn influenced print media to maintain a good distance between the commercial vs editorial/reporting departments of newspapers), and other laws that forbade media monopolies and encouraged public access.

The Chavez government is now in the process of trying to establish a better regulatory system for use of the public airwaves, to reduce the number of scofflaws who don't pay their licensing fees, don't follow regulations and/or use a PUBLIC airwave as a private fiefdom. They don't have as good a system as we once had (pre-Reagan). This is NOT censorship. This is good government. Why should there be rightwing, corpo/fascist crap on all TV/radio stations in a country? Why should there be vast corporate monopolies of broadcast and print media (not to mention conglomerates that fold war profiteers into their news/opinion monopolies, as here now)? That is NOT good government. That is corporate tyranny. The PUBLIC airwaves SHOULD BE regulated for fairness in political coverage, as well as for fair access to the PUBLIC airwaves for small businesses, non-profits and ordinary citizens.

Our corpo/fascist media has propagandized this into "suppression of free speech" for obvious reasons of self-interest. They are LYING. Venezuelans have never had more free speech! The Chavez government has enhanced free speech--the very opposite from what our lying, scumbag corpo/fascist press has been telling us. Rightwingers want "free speech" only for themselves, not for everybody else. And what did the rightwing coupsters do, back in 2002, when they tried their putsch? They suspended the Constitution, the National Assembly, the courts and all civil rights. "Free speech" for RCTV and anyone who supported the coup and for nobody else. These big corps that vilify Chavez and promote the goddamn lie that the Chavez government suppresses "free speech" are complete and total lying hypocrites.

Some people have called that coup a "corporate media coup"--and that's what it largely was. RCTV colluded with the coupsters, hosted meetings of the coupsters, and broadcast outright lies and doctored 'news' footage on behalf of the coupsters throughout the coup. They committed treason and they are lucky not to be in jail--which they would be in many countries, justifiably so.

[SOS]

70. Were you upset when the American puppet in Georgia

used riot police to shut down the last opposition TV station?

[Peace Patriot]

78. Georgia? What relevance does that have? Venezuela is OOZING with rightwing corpo TV/radio!

Governments have the right and the DUTY to regulate the PUBLIC airwaves in the PUBLIC interest. A country whose PUBLIC airwaves are dominated or completely controlled by big corpo/fascist media conglomerates does NOT have "free speech"! Like here, for instance. Our government sucks when it comes to regulation of the PUBLIC airwaves in the PUBLIC interest, and has sucked now for more than three decades since the Reaganites deep-sixed the "Fairness Doctrine."

I find it horrible that so many DUers do not understand this--about Venezuela, as well as about our own country. We have a right, as the people of a democracy, to insist on fairness and public service from the corporations that we LICENSE to use OUR public airwaves. The way the "Fairness Doctrine" worked, it enhanced "free speech." It kept corporate media entities from totally propagandizing and brainwashing the public in their corporate interest. Broadcast media are a powerful tool of CONTROL, unless they are regulated. Venezuela is trying to do this. They have out-of-control corpo/fascist media domination, which is exemplified by the OUTRAGEOUS--traitorous, criminal--behavior of RCTV's owners in ACTIVELY supporting a violent military coup and colluding in that coup. That shows you just how out-of-control they were!

It is a good thing that RCTV lost its license! A democratic thing; an enhancement of free speech. What do you think would have happened to free speech in Venezuela if that coup had succeeded, hm? You think the people of Venezuela could have...oh...freely protested the coup? No! That is not what would have happened. Political leftists would have been jailed, and possibly tortured and killed. RCTV broadcast a list of Chavez government officials' HOMES, and encouraged rightwing mobs to go "arrest" these officials. Some were dragged from their homes and beaten. They REFUSED TO ALLOW Chavez's vice president or any other official of the Chavez government to speak on TV! And that would have been the fate of all leftists in the country--SILENCING!

Mega-corporations parade "free speech" before them as a lying, hypocritical cover-up of their intention to entirely control what we think, and whom we can elect, and what political ideas get discussed--all in their own greedbag interest. They can publish all the newspapers they want to, and rant and rave about "corporate rights" all they want, but they cannot--or should not be able--to do that on our PUBLIC airwaves. It leads to "corporate media"-run COUPS. (--which, quite frankly, I believe we experienced here during the 2000 and 2004 (s)elections).

[SOS]

104. Agree with every word in your post

I was responding to #59 who brought up the bogus Venezuela TV charge again.
I just find it interesting that people get worked up about Venezuela, which is freer and more democratic than places like Georgia, Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea.

Yet never a word about those places. As long as US oil companies have a deal, there is no reporting in our "free press".
I posted a thread about human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea and it did not get one response.

[Peace Patriot]

111. Thank you! Good point, too. Nary a word from these Chavez-haters about Colombia either--

a country with one of the worst human rights records on earth! They want to improve human rights? They can rant about the US shoveling $6 BILLION in military aid to a country where thousands of union leaders, community organizers, human rights workers, peasant farmers and others have been slaughtered by the Colombian military and its rightwing paramilitary death squads. US support for the Colombian government is outrageous, beyond all reason.

Compare the horrors in Colombia to de-licensing one TV station! Even if the Chavez government had de-licensed a TV station arbitrarily, for bad reasons, it hardly merits mention compared to ONE, let alone THOUSANDS, of deaths committed to SILENCE dissent.

Not one peep out of the "degrade Hugo brigade" objecting to the horrible slaughter (often including torture) of thousands of innocent people--people merely exercising their civil rights--in adjacent Colombia.

This is NOT happening in Venezuela. The OPPOSITE is happening in Venezuela. Ordinary people have never been more empowered anywhere in this hemisphere, including here, than they are in Venezuela. Yet the "degrade Hugo brigade" rants and raves against "Hugo"--promulgating every indefensible, fact-less rightwing "talking point" direct from the corpo/fascist press, over and over and over again, and when they are challenged with the facts, they scurry away. Facts don't matter to them. They are either poor, stupid, propagandized schmucks or they have an agenda like other rightwing operatives, and facts, truth, and good analysis are not part of what they do. Promulgating corpo/fascist lies are what they do.

[EFerrari]

76. Do you write fiction for a living or are you just moonlighting?

[L. Coyote]

36. Speaking of what's on paper at odds with reality

Have you been to Latin America, worked in a revolution for few years,
freed slaves, etc. or are you just a blowhard on the topic?
Do you even know what we liberators do down there?
Do you know what they do to us down there for being liberators?

[ProudDad]

48. Ah guess you'all in tex-ass

are all just shakin' in your boots in fear of those Veni-zoo-aliens coming up from South America and invading your punk ass little state?

Why don't you quit poring over the "great speeches of ronny ray-gun" and join the fact based world?

[earcandle]

23. His people are happy. I am watching a 2007 video called

Venezuela: Revolution from the Inside Out.

explores the history.   maybe take a look before you judge his
style.

[L. Coyote]

34. Watch "The Revolution will not be Televised"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144#

[troubledamerican]

38. I agree. Watch that film. Chavez has more in common with Bill Clinton than

Castro.

[earcandle]

91. thanks!

[EFerrari]

29. Chavez is arguably the most successful Latin American in the last 50 years.

He's no loser. His country is doing well and with his support countries like Bolivia, Uruguay, El Salvador and Ecuador are breaking free. You don't know your despots from your elbow.

And it's ironic that even as the violent de facto government in Honduras is being counseled by Hillary Clinton's PR people and by John Death Squads Negroponte, even as they are turning their American training and American made weapons on their own people and killing them, disappearing them and detaining them, even as today these thugs have students training at the SOA at Ft Benning, you use the term "conspiracy theory" in connection with a Latin American leader. It's beyond ironic. It's surreal. Ciao.

[AlphaCentauri]

71. I don't think Venezuelans will forget the misery they were living in for the pass 50 years

under the opposition rule.

[Captain Hilts]

5. Do you think Chavez and Quadaffi are good representatives of 'non-capitalists' ? They're cranks.

And they rule countries whose citizens are not free enough to tell them to keep it short!

[EFerrari]

26. Baloney. Venezuela has never been better off and they have more dailies than we do. n/t

[troubledamerican]

39. Amen.

[stray cat]

7. Did Chavez take a shower so he no longer smells himself?

[harmonicon]

14. I would imagine that he bathes regularly. (nt)

[U4ikLefty]

33. Chavez bathes regularly while Stray Cats lick themselves. n/t

[bitchkitty]

72. Typical.

Are you only 14 years old? Are you old enough to even be here?

Can you read? Can you think for yourself? Do you have anything besides one-line, LAME-ASS comments?

Didn't think so.

[tigereye]

8. that's so funny, and sort of what I was thinking - actual diplomacy can

now occur without that tool Bolten and others like him. Ugh.

[troubledamerican]

40. Notice the Hugo-haters fail to capitalize on Hugo's positive turnaround toward Obama.

Because they're (1) confused reactionaries, or (2) COINTELPRO-style plants, or (3) Venezuelan-oligarch family members who are posing as progressives, spreading the gospel of Hugo-hate disinfo, or (4) sincere dupes of FOX News demonization disinfo.

None of them have dropped a single positive word about Hugo's positive reponse to Obama's carrot of diplomacy.

What does that say about the Hugo-haters?

[JNelson6563]

60. Well put.

It seems we have more media-whore fans here on DU than we'd like to think. Easy to spot the kool-aid swillers.

Julie

[tigereye]

77. well, I don't think Chavez is perfect by any means

he veers toward too many attempts at control at times, but at least Obama doesn't see him as a total fascist, and vice-versa

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Meanwhile in honduras an actual dictatorship is crumbling. nt.

[L. Coyote]

11. I just read the whole thread, and "It smells like Freepers in here."

Someone needs to spend time in Latin America an get a dose of political reality instead of neocon propaganda.

[BunkerHill24]

19. Hear, Hear!

[Judi Lynn]

21. It's the musty mother's basement smell, you betcha. n/t

[EFerrari]

25. LOL. No kidding. n/t

[troubledamerican]

42. +1

[Poll_Blind]

93. Indeed. n/t

PB

[aquart]

13. He just gets such a kick out of these little visits.

[bertman]

15. Gotta give Presidente Chavez credit. He's an artist at the turn of a phrase. He sure as hell

nailed Bush with his Devil statement.

[Peace Patriot]

22. Lot of stupid rightwing opinions in this thread. The "degrade Hugo" brigade.

What about the people of Venezuela who are quite happy with the Chavez government? This is what the "degrade Hugo" brigade doesn't get: President Chavez has been thoroughly vetted by his own people, with the corpo/fascist press in Venezuela (which is even worse than here) tearing him down and wanting a rightwing putsch throughout his presidency, and yet the people ignore that corpo/fascist crap and support Chavez in big numbers. Chavez has also been vetted by other Latin American leaders, many of whom are his allies and some of whom are his close friends--the latter including President Lula da Silva of Brazil, President Evo Morales of Bolivia, President Rafael Correa of Ecuador, President Tabare Vasquez of Uruguay, President Fernando Lugo of Paraguay, and President Cristina Fernandez of Argentina. In fact, Lula da Silva said, of Chavez: "They can invent a lot of things to criticize Chavez, but not on democracy!" Are they all wrong? That's what the "degrade Hugo" brigade wants us to believe--all these leaders are wrong, and the people of Venezuela are wrong. They want us to swallow their own narrow view--probably adopted by some from our own corpo/fascist press--that Chavez is a dictator, an autocrat, an egotist, a clown, an enemy, a scumbag, or whatever the latest epithet is. None of this is true--when you bother to research the facts. That is what the people of Venezuela know, and all these other leaders know. It is the "degrade Hugo" brigade that is wrong.

[WriteDown]

24. You couldn't be more on the money..

I heard he only started rambling after being hit with high-frequency radiation.

[EFerrari]

27. It's the same 10 posters that delight in taking the right wing position

every time no matter what the facts are. They're hilarious, actually.

[Pavulon]

35. and the same who think he walks on water (oil)

how about we reserve judgement until he transitions power to the a successor in a non putin style.

[ronnie624]

43. No one has ever said anything of the sort.

That's the sort of nonsense that right wingers must resort to in order to 'discuss' this issue, and advance their own point of view.

You cannot honestly say that Venezuela doesn't have clean elections, or that the Bolivarian government isn't supported by a large majority of Venezuelans, or that infant mortality numbers have not dropped dramatically in Venezuela during the last ten years, or that illiteracy has not been all but eliminated, or that more people don't have access to basic health care, or that Venezuelans are not more satisfied with the direction of their government than they ever have been at any time in the past. The facts simply are not on your side, so you must exaggerate and even falsely characterize the positions of those you disagree with, or make vague, bizarre predictions about how Chavez will at some point in the future, become a dictator, or just shameless, blatant character assassination, with seemingly no thought about how illogical these tactics really are.

And I'm supposed to believe you are reserving judgment, after referring to President Chavez as a "shitstain"?

[Peace Patriot]

65. Point of order: Chavez has NO POWER to "transition power to a successor."

The people of Venezuela hold that power, and ALL the power in Venezuela, because, a) elections are clean and transparent (--what "dictator" ever held clean, transparent elections?), b) the people themselves saved Chavez from the 2002 coup and he owes them (--what "dictator" ever had tens of thousands of citizens pour out of their hovels to face tanks and guns in defense of his "dictatorial" government?, c) the Constitution says so, and the Chavez government has scrupulously adhered to the Constitution and the rule of law (--what "dictator" ever respected the rule of law?), d) the Venezuelan Constitution provides for a recall of the President by popular national vote (--the rightwing tried it once--at US taxpayers' expense--and lost the vote, big time), e) everything that the Chavez government has done--everything!--has fostered maximum citizen participation in government, politics and civic affairs, with particular encouragement of grass roots community organizing, and has furthermore greatly enhanced the civil and human rights of all, including the Chavez government's efforts toward equal rights for women and gays (--what "dictator" ever championed equal rights?).

The accusation of "dictator" simply does not hold up. There are NO FACTS to support it. A strong president is not the same as a "dictator." Yes, Chavez is a strong president--much like our own FDR, as a matter of fact (who was also called a "dictator" by the rightwing and big business!). Yes, Chavez is very popular and has a lot of political clout. That does not make him a "dictator." Yes, Chavez is a regional leader and a visionary as to social justice and Latin American independence, but he works cooperatively and closely with other regional leaders and is close friends with many of them.

You have no basis on which to predict that Chavez won't leave his office if the people of Venezuela vote him out. You also apparently have little knowledge of what the Chavez government has done on the economic front, given your snide remark about oil ("walking on water," "walking on oil"). Yes, the Venezuelan government has a lot of oil money. So what? Evo Morales' government in Bolivia has lots of gas money. Fernando Lugo's government in Paraguay has lots of hydroelectric power money. The rightwing in all of these, and in many other countries, has exploited such resources to make themselves rich and to sell out their countrymen to multinational corporations, and also gravely neglected local/regional development, including neglect of infrastructure, education, local manufacturing, small business, worker rights, worker health care, food self-sufficiency, housing, pensions and on and on. The Chavez government, like these other governments, is dramatically changing how resources are used, in the direction of a better life for everyone. The Chavez government is furtherest along in this process, and has created such a solid economic foundation in Venezuela, that Venezuela has been almost entirely insulated from the "shock and awe" predator capitalism of the Bushwhack Financial 9/11. Venezuela has shown nearly 10% economic growth over the previous five years (2003 through 2008), with the most growth in the private sector (not including oil), and--while fully funding all of its social programs--saved $43 billion in international cash reserves for just such a "rainy day" as the Bushwhacks rained on nearly everybody else including us. Venezuela is in excellent economic shape due to good government, and due in particular to the excellent management of the oil contracts and excellent use of the oil profits.

Would that that were true here! Here, we have corporations looting everybody, and oil corporations hijacking the US military for a corporate oil war!

What would you have the Chavez government do with the oil profits? Give them all away to multinational corporations while skimming off the top for themselves and their ruling elite, as previous Venezuelan governments did? Chavez has driven only the worst of the multinationals away (Exxon Mobil) and has made fair deals with the rest (--with entities like France's Total, Norway's Statoil and British BP). And his government is using the profits in the best way possible for the future--by bootstrapping the poor, and attending to local/regional development and independence.

What would you have the oil profits used for, hm? Give us your program for Venezuela and South America. You are often here with these short, snide remarks about Chavez and the oil. Lay out your vision for democracy, social justice and a prosperous future for Venezuela and its region, given Venezuela's big oil industry.

[Pavulon]

81. big post , simple answer..

spend money on the fucked up poverty still in and around caracas. It, contrary to popular belief, is not on par with telluride and greenwich ct down there after hugo fixed it all. Next, detail a plan, an agenda and transition power.

Hugo is an oil dealer, he runs a petro state, not a complex economy.

[laughingliberal]

99. Hear, Hear!

The right hates Chavez because he started busting up the oligarchy that existed when he became president. It was what he was elected to do and he did it. Could use a little oligarchy busting here, IMO.

[fascisthunter]

108. that's what they really fear... not just Chavez, but...

your desire for the same thing to happen here. They know most people would be for it...

[Pavulon]

110. for what, exactly? (nt)

[Pavulon]

109. can I have the job, I will make sure my mom and brothers

are straight fucking paid.. Oh wait, maybe i should keep that on the DL, fucking NPR. Other than making sure i am paid I will stick it to the man, for sure as long his is not from china or iran, then i will just bend over.

[Paladin]

86. You Have No Standing To Lecture Us On Reserving Judgment. On Anything. (n/t)

[Pavulon]

97. No one has standing, this is the internet, we are all

monkeys throwing shit. Any person who thinks they are more in this forum has the wrong idea of their place.

I say he gets judged when he leaves or the next guy to take the job kills him.

[ellie]

66. The usual suspects!

You can set your watch by them. It's comforting, really, to know when they will show up. Constants in an ever-changing world.

[L. Coyote]

32. You know you can trust Hugo because Bush tied to overthrow their democracy

just to get rid of his progressive threat in the region.

If these would-be freepers on this issue can't turn around on any other logic, the fact Bush actually overthrew Venezuela's democracy for a day to oust Huge should say it all!

[troubledamerican]

41. Shouldn't it be a RED FLAG when DUers parrot FOX News talking-points about Hugo or anyone?

[JanusAscending]

44. I will stongly concur with your statement!

n/t

[L. Coyote]

49. Red Flag. As in NOT blue rather than a commie flag.

Red flag, bridge ahead, watch for trolls! :rofl:

[wroberts189]

55. Its against the rules to accuse someone of being a paid shill I believe.

I got a post deleted and a "don't do it again" note once when I accused someone of being a freeper.

[Occulus]

74. And they depend on that rule to stay here.

We do not have community policing here, and that is a shame, because there are several trolls who have been here since 2001 that have managed to stay by in part depending on nobody being able or allowed to call a spade a spade. Fredda Weinberg was one, Bev Harris was another. Both of them were here for a long time, and both of them did a hell of a lot of damage while they were trolling here.

By the way- this is also why several Usual Suspects bitterly complained about Unrec. I'll leave the obvious conclusion up to you per that Du rule I mentioned earlier.

We need to do something to fix this, but damned if I know what.

[wroberts189]

56. "The "degrade Hugo" brigade"

They are the most reliable bunch around here. I believe they are being paid to do so. Unfortunately for them we on the left have brains and think for ourselves.

This is no bull... a quick google search and you will find this in many news spots...


US State Department bankrolls young Venezuelans to slander Chavez

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2009/810/41661

--------------------

They also love to ignore he gave my mom cheap heating oil and kept her and my younger sister from freezing.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/09/06/as_joe_kennedy_considers_run_chvez_ties_loom/

[JNelson6563]

61. I had a go 'round with a member of the brigade

when Chavez said he had to pull the free heating oil deal. They went nuts, how dare that rat bastard not give us free heating oil!?!?!? I was shocked really. Our government has tried to overthrow him, our media demonizes him and many of our citizens trash him at every turn. Funny though, when he worked out a way to keep the free heating oil flowing, n'ary a peep.

It's really astounding. I've never seen a bigger bunch of suckers than DUers who buy the Faux Snooze lies.

Julie

[wroberts189]

63. I do not believe they belong here... their arguments are weak and rw.

...and I have been around enough to go past that line from suspicion to conviction.

I have no real idea but I think at least 90%+ of us are like thinkers (in most ways).


But there be trolls in these woods ...keep an eye out watching.

[fascisthunter]

69. I'm Glad... because when they whine and fling shit at the wall

I know for certainty that Chavez is doing something right for his people.

[roody]

45. How long was the speech?

That is some indication of rambling or not.

[wroberts189]

58. I believe they are only allotted a certain amount of time each.

So "rambling" was an improper use of an adjective. Unless you want to say they all did it.

But someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[justinaforjustice]

51. Chavez is a Great Visionary -- We Need His Ideas in the U.S.

Upon his election in 1998, President Hugo Chavez led a constitutional reform movement in Venezuela which gave its citizens the constitutional right to health care, adequate nutrition, housing, free education to the doctoral level, and unionization, including even a right to a job. The new Constitution was passed by an over-whelming majority in 1999. Since that time, the Chavez government has worked hard to implement those rights, establishing thousands of free neighborhood medical, dental and optical clinics throughout the country, passing legislation to provide low interest loans to enable Venezuelans to buy their own houses and start their own businesses and cooperatives.

Imagine if the millions of Americans who lack health insurance, and thus access to adequate health care, as well as those losing their homes due to medical bills and job losses, had those programs? Imagine if workers now had real government support for their efforts to unionize as in Venezuela where, by law, all labor laws are to enforced with a presumption in favor of the workers. Imagine if the millions of now unemployed American workers could get government subsidies to start their own businesses and cooperatives? Imagine if the government provided low-cost food to the millions who now need it because they are un - or under- employed?

Imagine if, instead of battling for crumbs while the big banksters get gifted with trillions of taxpayers' money, the poor and unemployed got good medical care and food, free job training, and help to start their own business?

And, along with all this, the Chavez government has brought real community democracy to virtually every corner of this beautiful country. Yes, there are many, many damn good reasons why Chavez has won 14 of the last 15 elections in Venezuela, all of which have been found by international monitors to be fair and honest.

It is time Americans woke up and demanded that their government put human values before private corporate profits and start carrying out is U.S. Constitutional duty to "provide for the general welfare".

Rather than parroting the corporate media's attacks on President Chavez and Bolivarian socialism, we should be demanding that the Chavez vision of putting government to work for the majority of its citizens be emulated in the U.S.

As an American living in Venezuela for the past 2 plus years, I can attest that, under President Chavez, Venezuelan democracy is thriving -- as are the majority of its citizens. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the U.S. Time to change that, beginning with fighting for Medicare for All.

[L. Coyote]

83. Viva Liberation Politics!

[Pavulon]

84. Have you actually been there..

the shittiest medicare option in a county hospital for treatment is better than 99% of what is available there to the poor. You get cancer or born with congenital heart defects, well not to good. Poverty is still rampant, you can smell it outside caracas on the way to coro..

People look at hugo like he has created a utopian society. He is setting the board up to stay around for ever. Like I said, I will judge his impact when he leaves office.

[rayofreason]

87. Now, now...

Chavez won't be President Forever...only President for Life.

He will leave office just like Stalin did.

[Peace Patriot]

85. Hear, hear! Justinaforjustice has the right idea. We need to LEARN FROM Venezuela

and the Bolivarian Revolution. The flak from the "degrade Chavez brigade" is aimed at people NOT THINKING.

And we need to attend to OUR election system, which is now mostly run by a far, FAR rightwing corporation--ES&S (which bought out Diebold). (They are WORSE than Diebold, believe me.)

See Bradblog about this (how much of our election system ES&S now CONTROLS with "TRADE SECRET" programming code and virtually NO audit/recount controls) and see Dan Rather's "The Trouble With Touchscreens" at www.HD.net).

Venezuela has a fully transparent electronic voting system, which uses OPEN SOURCE code (anyone may review the code by which the votes are tallied) and a whopping 55% audit (more than five times the percent needed to detect machine fraud). (Know how much of an audit we do? You need to find out.) That's why they have universal health care. That's why they have a government working for the people and not the corporations. Their media is worse than ours, yet they have been able to keep the Chavez government in power. How is that possible? TRANSPARENT VOTE COUNTING! They also have other good rules--re campaign finance, no ads in the last weeks before the vote, etc. ("best practices" rules). But the key to change in any democratic system is FIRST OF ALL a transparent vote count. It is the bottom line of democracy. They have it. We do not.

[rayofreason]

88. I remember...

...all the folks who claimed that Soviet elections were free and transparent. Hah! The DPRK claims that now. ROTFLMAO! Not a claim that that is the Venezuelan situation, but I generally reserve a skeptical attitude to political protestations.

Regardless of that, I have a great distrust for ANYONE who wants to hold on to power forever. Such people are bad news, no matter what. I am in favor of term limits - 4 terms for a Representative, 2 terms for a Senator. I love the 22nd amendment.

Somehow I don't think that Chavez would support such a measure.

[EFerrari]

100. Venezuela's elections, unlike ours, are monitored by independent international monitors.

[Peace Patriot]

102. "Regardless of that..."? Regardless of whether or not elections are REALLY transparent?

You shove the issue of the fundamental condition of democracy aside with too much alacrity. ("Regardless of that...".). Venezuela's elections are PROVABLY transparent, on ALL criteria, and have been THOROUGHLY monitored by every international election monitoring group--the Carter Center, the OAS, the EU and others. These organizations do not--and will not--just "drop in" in on an election and take a superficial look at the election. They work BY INVITATION of the government AND all parties, and work with election officials, political parties and candidates and lawmakers months and sometimes years in advance of monitoring an election. They know what they are monitoring, and they have all, universally, certified Venezuela's elections as honest, transparent and fair. And I have personally sought out the facts of Venezuela's election system, partly because of my interest in our own corporate-hijacked system, and can declare, without reservation, that Venezuela has one of the best vote counting systems in the world, and, indeed, have a system that is far, FAR more transparent than our own, and superior to our own in other ways as well.

This is no small matter. And you cannot dismiss it. The term limit on the presidency of Venezuela (which affected Chavez and also many rightwing governors) was lifted by the people of Venezuela in a free and fair referendum. Whatever Chavez or any other politician may have wanted, it was not up to them.

"I have a great distrust for ANYONE who wants to hold on to power forever. Such people are bad news, no matter what." --rayofreason

Would that include Franklin Delano Roosevelt?

FDR ran for and won four terms in office, and died in office in his fourth term. He was "president for life." The country needed him, first to solve the Great Depression, second, to win WW II. Should the country have been denied his leadership?

The rightwing in this country--which called him a "dictator," too--and the Pukes in Congress rammed through a two-term limit on the US president in order to prevent any "New Deal" from ever happening here again, and to begin to undo the one we had (which they are close to accomplishing). They didn't do it for "democracy"!

Our own Founders opposed term limits, and did not include them in the US Constitution, because they considered term limits undemocratic. Term limits are a rightwing/corporate idea so that power can be accumulated by private business interests--whose corporate entities can now live forever accumulating vast property and wealth--and no political figure can acquire sufficient power to curtail them in the public interest.

And the key to whether or not term limits or no term limits result in a better democracy is to be found, a) in the other democratic institutions, such as transparent vote counting, or the ability of the people to recall the president (which Venezuelans have, and we do not); b) the results of a system with term limits or with no term limits, i.e., do the elections reflect poll and other indicators of public opinion?) and does the system result in improvement in the lives of the majority?, and c) in the influence and power of private businesses and the rich elite on the government and the impacts of that influence and power on the lives of the majority.

You cannot say that, just because someone runs for office repeatedly and wins, he or she is a "dictator" or the country is suffering a "dictatorship." A popular leader may be a strong leader; that does NOT mean that he or she is a "dictator." Do the people want a strong leader? Did they truly elect a strong leader? Does that leader respect the Constitution and the rule of law? (Note: The Chavez government has scrupulously adhered to the Constitution and the rule of law.) And, is their leadership beneficial? (Have they harmed people? Have they helped people?) (Note: The Chavez government has harmed no one, has empowered the poor majority and greatly enhanced civil rights, and has turned the country around, economically, through excellent financial management--a turnaround that the government is using to benefit the poor majority with education, health care and other social and bootstrapping measures.)

I think you need to analyze our own system, as well as learn more about Venezuela. You also need to learn some respect for the voters of Venezuela. They lifted term limits. They have repeatedly elected the Chavez government. And it is the voters and ordinary citizens, and grass roots and human rights groups of every kind, who have worked so hard to achieve a system in which the leaders that the majority want actually get elected. Before you dis Chavez--and before you presume to know what his personal motives are--you need to know the facts. Any political leader or office holder needs to be watched, and watched very closely. Do you have any reason to believe that the people of Venezuela have not watched Chavez and his government very closely? Do you have any reason to believe that the leaders of the region--most of whom are Chavez allies, and many of whom are close friends of his--are wrong about him? Was President Lula da Silva, for instance, lying, when he said, of Chavez: "They can invent all kinds of things to criticize Chavez, but not on democracy!"? Are all these leaders--the presidents of Brazil, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador and others--and the people of Venezuela, in repeated, transparent elections--all wrong?

You are entitled to your own opinion of Chavez, of course--and of term limits--but I urge you to base your opinions on facts and reality, and on rigorous analysis--especially needed in this era of intense corporate 'news' propaganda. It's good to "reserve a skeptical attitude," but it's not good to ignore or brush aside demonstrable facts, such as the transparency of Venezuelan elections and vast improvements in civil rights, poverty levels, literacy, health care, economic growth and other indicators that the Chavez government is doing the will of the people of Venezuela, and is also highly respected in the region.

[Kolesar]

62. I loved when Chavez called bush the devil

I am sure that message resonated in other countries.

Interesting comments *here* about RW efforts to slam Chavez on message boards. Hard to believe that *they* don't have anything better to do with *their* time.

[fascisthunter]

68. wise

[JeanGrey]

75. Yeah but we can still smell you, Hugo.

And your friends.

[IndianaGreen]

98. Ahhh, the stench of the American parasitic investor class

who fears that the Bolivarian revolution will find fertile ground elsewhere which would be a threat to transnational corporations.

[defendandprotect]

92. Don't beleive in Devils but if there was one it would be Bush/Cheney --

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

105. He has also said Obama was an ignoramus and lost in space. What does he really believe?