Zelaya rules out deal with Honduras coup leaders

[maddezmom]

Source: The Guardian

The ousted Honduran president, Manuel Zelaya, has said there is no possibility of a deal with the military-backed government that ousted him after talks last night.

~snip~

He told the country's Channel 36 television last night that an official from Micheletti's administration had taken "an extremely hard" stand and the government's positions were "totally outside of any possibility of agreement".

Zelaya, who upset conservative elites by allying himself with socialist Venezuelan president, Hugo Chávez, is insisting on his reinstatement while the de facto government has said he faces arrest and elections will be held in November.

Earlier, Zelaya had said talks were at an early stage and expressed hope at the outcome but he had changed his tune by the end of the day.

~snip~
The UN security council is due to meet today to discuss the political crisis in Honduras and Zelaya's future.




Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/25/zelaya-talks-honduras-coup-micheletti

[rpannier]

1. Why should the Democratically elected president negotiate with terrorist and coup leaders? nt

[joey93turbo]

23. Other way around

The question is why should the congress, supreme court, and interim president who were all following the law and constitution negotiate with a criminal? He's lucky he's not in prison right now.

[rpannier]

63. You got it wrong

It was a coup

The government is NOT recognized by ANY government around the world.

Hard to claim legitimacy when you can't find anyone to say they're the true government.

The US should cut off all aid to the coup leaders until they step aside

[harmonicon]

2. Ok, time to get some blue helmets on the ground there now, I hope

And lets get these fucking coup leading scumbags in prison.

[WriteDown]

5. I wouldn't want to do that to the children of Honduras. nt

[harmonicon]

11. You'd rather have them see their parents get murdered?

You'd prefer that to having them have to endure the "brutal tyranny" of US peace keeping units assuring free and fair elections? That's pretty fucked up.

[IDFbunny]

13. More gunboat diplomacy in Central America

Maybe we should go into Cuba to ensure free elections there. If Michelliti isn't legitimate than neither is Raul Castro.

[harmonicon]

16. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. (nt)

[IDFbunny]

20. I think what has happened is awful to.

I wish the defacto government was more reasonable and not hard line. They had an opportunity to establish some legitimacy and they blew it with these crackdowns.

The best solution, under the circumstances, was to see a UN administered election. I find it incredulous that the UN ran away like rabbits.

Re-installing Zelaya would have been a replay of the re-installation of Aristide.

[joey93turbo]

25. Perfect Analogy

Actually, he's spot on. If this was a 'coup' as you call it, what's the difference between Castro's and this one? You know, aside from the fact that this one was lawful per the countries laws and constitution, and very little blood was shed.

[harmonicon]

26. ok, I've explained this before, and I'll do it one last time

This coup was completely different than the Cuban civil war. Why? In Cuba, a popular uprising overthrew a brutal dictatorship and a government for, of, and by the people was established; very much like how the US was founded. In Honduras, a popularly elected leader was overthrown and replaced with members of an aristocracy who feel that they have an inalienable right to rule the people, be they elected or not. When those people who had their leader taken from them protested, they were killed.

As for this straw-argument about this all somehow being legal within Honduras, just give it a fucking rest - you really think that removing a president and putting him on a flight out of the country - imposed exile - is somehow in their laws? Give me a fucking break and get with the program - facts are your friends.

[joey93turbo]

27. Exile

I'd say they did him a favor, he should have gone to prison. I'd be interested to know what their laws say to do with him. How was it illegal, from your perspective?

[EFerrari]

29. Are you kidding? Kidnapping a sitting president is treason.

And no, they couldn't put him in prison LEGALLLY because he broke no law.

[IDFbunny]

34. Not til a trial anyway.

The supreme court arrest warrant was lawful (to them anyway).

The supreme court injunctions against the referendum was lawful.

[EFerrari]

38. The was no legal basis to deny the referendum. So, the kidnapping

occurred to forestall a legal battle that the golpistas couldn't win.

Is this making more sense now?

They had no legal leg to stand on from the beginning and that's why they had to go the route they did to get what they wanted.

The problem is, Honduras won't put up with these people for very much longer. Their day is over. They just don't know how over it is yet.

[IDFbunny]

41. That would have been for the jurists to decide

what is legal or constitutional.

[EFerrari]

42. Right. And to forestall that process, there was a kidnapping. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. The process had concluded, Zelaya was removed from office

The only violation was forcing him into exile.

[EFerrari]

53. Wrong again. It was foreclosed, not concluded.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. The highest jurists in Honduras have decided

They removed Zelaya from office and ordered him arrested.

[EFerrari]

55. You are factually incorrect and iirc, we've done this before

and I have no desire to do it again.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

61. Then quit posting nonsense

[EFerrari]

67. You've had more than ten weeks to get your facts straight

and still haven't. In fact, you're still posting the same misinformed stuff you posted in Week 1 so I have to deduce that this topic isn't really of interest to you.

Have a good night.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. The Supreme Court of Honduras said it was illegal , and removed him from office

Your opinion and mine on that are irrelevant. They are the highest legal authority on Honduran law

[EFerrari]

72. Well, no. That's not what happened. And the Supreme Court

doesn't have the authority to do that in the first instance.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. He was not a sitting President, Their supreme court had removed him from office

[EFerrari]

56. Wrong again. They didn't do that paper until AFTER they abducted him. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. Have a credible citation for that? While you try to find one, consider this

http://media.sfexaminer.com/documents/2009-002965HNRPT.pdf

[EFerrari]

68. Most of the issues are raised in the current version at Wikipedia.

They don't have Dr. Joyce's letter yet and I'm sure others will follow.

[IDFbunny]

28. Good coup/Bad coup ?

Pretty subjective. Actually exile was a constitutional remedy that Zelaya signed. Exile is pretty civil compared to prison or pistol. If we're gonna enforce Democracy we should still start with Cuba, the coup is sixty years old and it's high time the people spoke.

[EFerrari]

31. How subjective is it to distinguish between a violent brutal dictator

and a democratically elected president?

:crazy:

[IDFbunny]

37. which violent brutal dictator, Batista or Castro?

I'm sure if Bush/Cheney had been locked out of the country you'd have been there protesting for his return to power.

[EFerrari]

39. You only show abject ignorance comparing Zelaya to Bush/Cheney.

Zelaya was thrown out because he wasn't Bush/Cheney by Bush/Cheney allies and supporters.

[WriteDown]

43. I think you missed it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6195830.stm

[IDFbunny]

9. What right does any outsider have

in taking their Supreme Court and democratically elected congressmen. Would you throw them all in prison or just the ones that issued the arrest warrant and the ones that voted for impeachment?

[harmonicon]

10. you again

What have you missed?!?! Do you not realize that the entire world - apart from yourself and some other right-wing loons - recognize this as an illegal coup?

[IDFbunny]

12. Who is it you want to see hung?

Be exact. Michelletti, of course, then who else.....the entire congress and the supreme court I presume?

[harmonicon]

15. I don't want to see anyone hung.

I'm strongly against any death penalties.

[IDFbunny]

19. Regime change is bloody.

Their congress and supreme court is/was just as legititame as Zelaya was.

The UN should step in and supervise elections but shirk their duty in this case.

[rpannier]

73. It's hanged

People are hanged

Pictures are hung

[joey93turbo]

14. Why?

I still haven't heard why everyone is saying it's illegal, care to explain? It's really none of the rest of the world's business what happens as long as it's all lawful and internal anyway, no matter how they might feel about it.

[EFerrari]

33. You do know that kidnapping is not legal in Honduras, right?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. IT wasn't a kidnapping, it was the execution of a court issued warrant

All parties have now acknowledged that forcing him into exile was wrong

[EFerrari]

69. The Court has no authority to order a kidnapping. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. Its not nearly as unilateral as you claim

[EFerrari]

32. You can't retroactively impeach a president after you've kidnapped him

to dress up your crime. Not even in Honduras.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. It wasn't retroactive

[EFerrari]

71. Go read a timeline and get back to me. This thing was full of fakery

from beginning to end. And I assume it will continue to be full of fakery.

[ro1942]

3. Our corp. gov.

likes it as it is.

[L. Coyote]

4. The coup leaders should be on trial, not in discussions.

And they should have to answer for all the people they ave killed, tortured, injured, etc.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. In 2 months this becomes moot.

Then what?

All they have to do stall another 60 days.

[harmonicon]

17. Not true.

The UN has pulled any election support from the country and announced that any outcome from a November election would be illegitimate.

[joey93turbo]

24. Go figure

What would be their motivation for doing so? Just another instance of the UN's blatant disregard for the sovereign authority and/or constitutions of countries.

[joey93turbo]

7. Zelaya broke the law...

I'm amazed how you guys think because this guy was the president he was above the law. He violated the constitution of the country, as ruled by the Supreme Court, and congress authorized his arrest and removal from office. Imagine how much better this country would be if we did that with our presidents who disregarded the constitution, such as Bush! Nobody should be above the law. Calling what happened a 'Coup' is BS, the law and process that was in place for a situation like this was followed to a T. If the interim president was trying to maintain the presidency or even run for president in the next election, I'd have a problem with that. The fact that he isn't speaks volumes.

[lunamagica]

8. You are correct

People here talk about the "opposition", ignoring (or choosing to ignore) that it's Zelaya's own party that decided to ignore him.

It's like if Obama decided to ignore the constitution, congress and the supreme court. Then he was removed and Nancy Pelosi became president (under the Honduran constitution the VP wasn't elegible because he's running for president)I know this is an absurd example because that would never happen here, but I just wanted to highlight that if such thing happened, the Dems would still be in power.

That's what happened in Honduras. Zelaya's party still in power, they just removed him. Even the staff of the Tribunal of Election which will be overseeing the elections in a couple of months was chosen by him.


How could he return to power when his *own* party got rid of him?

It's just two months until elections. Zelaya will be gone by then, anyway.

[harmonicon]

18. You really think you have a better understanding of this than the head of the UN?

Really? Name one country which as recognized the coup-regime as a legitimate government.

[joey93turbo]

22. Facts

Look, all I'm saying is examine the facts. There are all sorts of motives for people, countries, and organizations to take sides, but the facts don't lie (or they wouldn't be facts). As best we know these facts aren't being disputed. I really dislike when people subscribe to this 'group think' mentality. If everyone believes the same thing, it must be right, right? Absolutely not.

[EFerrari]

36. No, all you're saying is a repetition of the criminals' story.

The facts don't lie and you don't have them.

And that is why the UN, the EU and just about the entire world except a couple of US lapdogs have come out strongly against the golpistas.

/typo

[Xithras]

21. I've been puzzled too. I'm not sure where the support for him comes from.

I had a kneejerk reaction to support him at first, because I dislike coups, but I fail to see where the international support is coming from now that the full story is known.

The Honduran Supreme Court ordered his arrest and removed him from power, as is their right under the Honduran constitution. The military was sent in to remove him from power (military based law enforcement is common in poorer countries) based on their orders, and he was taken from the country without injury. The national congress voted to permanently remove him from power, and appointed another member of his own party to succeed him as president for the next few months. The military ceded control to the new president immediately.

I can understand that some people liked Zelaya, and can certainly agree that the military has carried out some abuses in the days following the change...which SHOULD be investigated by the UN... but I don't see where the crisis was illegal or even how it qualified as a "coup". The military didn't seize power, and Honduran laws weren't broken.

[EFerrari]

40. The Court had no basis on which to disallow the referendum

or to remove Zelaya and neither did the Congress. That's why it's illegal. There is no "right" in the Honduran Constitution to remove a president from power because you dislike his politics.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. The Supreme Court of Honduras said it was legal, and they are the highest authority in this matter

[EFerrari]

57. After the fact which in itself is yet another legal problem for those criminals. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. It was not after the fact and the CRS agrees. You fail to cite any sources

[EFerrari]

65. The CRS is wrong-o and being called out for it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6632210&mesg_id=6632210

[EFerrari]

35. Wrong. They went under cover of night to kidnap him

and fixed the paper after.

You're not paying attention.

He broke no law at all but they broke not only Honduran law but international law.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. Which international law was broken?

[EFerrari]

54. Try transborder abduction and who knows what else.

I'm not a lawyer.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

59. Its quite clear you are not a lawyer...

http://media.sfexaminer.com/documents/2009-002965HNRPT.pdf is report prepared for Congress which points out that it was legal under Honduran law and the time line does not support your claim of post facto documentation.

[Bacchus39]

62. court issued arrest warrant on June 26 and Mel was arrested June 28

yes, I do believe you are correct.

Also it was 15-0 vote with a majority made up from Zelaya's party.

yes, who does decide the law in Honduras?

[EFerrari]

66. Except that legal scholars are challenging this report

whose only cited "authority" is the coup supporter that tried to palm off the fake resignation letter.

lol

[Judi Lynn]

30. This interview was published in Spain's "El Pais," revealing info. we-ve been given incorrectly.

Canard d'Etat: Honduras and the U.S. Press
Think the fallacies in America's health care debate are slippery? Try catching the red herring that's fouling up U.S. press coverage of the Honduran coup.

By: Kirk Nielsen | September 22, 2009 | 03:00 PM (PDT)

A canard infiltrated the pages of the finest U.S. newspapers in late June and continues to undermine the first draft of 2009 Honduran coup history and the sovereignty of good journalism in the United States. Logicians might call it a bare assertion fallacy or a false dilemma. As all fallacies, this one thrives from an error in reasoning — and from errors in reporting and editing.

~snip~
El Pais, Sunday June 28, 2009 (Coup Day)
Excerpts from a 1,300-word Q&A of President Zelaya by special correspondent Pablo Ordaz, conducted in Spanish on June 27, one day after Zelaya fired the top general in the armed forces:

Ordaz: The opposition says that what is really behind the vote on Sunday is your intention to remain in power.
Zelaya: Look...Honestly. I don't have any option for staying in power. The only way would be to break the constitutional order, and I'm not going to do that.
Ordaz: Is that your word?
Zelaya: Yes, I'm going to end my government on January 27, 2010. That's what I am going to do. But I'm going to leave behind a process to open democracy, open the possibility for a president to be re-elected in the future. Although I don't know if by then I'm going to be available.
....
Ordaz: What's your model?
Zelaya: Look. I've positioned myself in the center-left as a government because I practice liberal ideas, but with a socialist, social, tendency, very closely tied to integrating the citizen with his rights.
Ordaz: But you aren't a man who came from the left...
Zelaya: That is so. In fact, I come from very conservative sectors.
Ordaz: And at what point did you fall off the horse?
Zelaya: Ha, ha. No, rather, at what point did I get on the horse...Look, I had planned to make changes from within the neo-liberal framework. But the rich won't cede a penny. They won't cede any of their money. They want it all for themselves. So, logically, to make changes one has to incorporate the people.
....
Ordaz: Why have you been left so isolated, president?
Zelaya: It's because we're talking about the bourgeois State. The economic elites comprise the bourgeois State. They are at the top of the armies, parties, judges, and that bourgeois State feels vulnerable when I start to propose that the people have a voice and a vote.
Ordaz: How are the moments of crisis that you've lived through in these latest hours going to change you politically, but also personally?
Zelaya: {He stays quiet.} What am I going to change? If I emerge strengthened {from the vote} this Sunday. ...Perhaps I'll have to create closer ties with the groups with power. I'll have to create closer ties with them and convince them. Tell them that I'm not against them, that this is a historic process, that they have to cooperate. ...They have to understand that poverty won't be eliminated until the poor people make the laws.

More:
http://www.miller-mccune.com/media/honduras-and-the-us-press-1484

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. The report prepared by the Law Library of Congress gives a different assessment

http://media.sfexaminer.com/documents/2009-002965HNRPT.pdf

[EFerrari]

70. And you have already been shown that there are significant problems

with that "report".