More school: Obama would curtail summer vacation

[NewEngland4Obama]

Source: the sun news


Posted on Sun, Sep. 27, 2009
More school: Obama would curtail summer vacation
By LIBBY QUAID
AP Education Writer
Students beware: The summer vacation you just enjoyed could be sharply curtailed if President Barack Obama gets his way.

Obama says American kids spend too little time in school, putting them at a disadvantage with other students around the globe.

"Now, I know longer school days and school years are not wildly popular ideas," the president said earlier this year. "Not with Malia and Sasha, not in my family, and probably not in yours. But the challenges of a new century demand more time in the classroom."

The president, who has a sixth-grader and a third-grader, wants schools to add time to classes, to stay open late and to let kids in on weekends so they have a safe place to go.

"Our school calendar is based upon the agrarian economy and not too many of our kids are working the fields today," Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in a recent interview with The Associated Press.

Fifth-grader Nakany Camara is of two minds. She likes the four-week summer program at her school, Brookhaven Elementary School in Rockville, Md. Nakany enjoys seeing her friends there and thinks summer school helped boost her grades from two Cs to the honor roll.

But she doesn't want a longer school day. "I would walk straight out the door," she said.

Domonique Toombs felt the same way when she learned she would stay for an extra three hours each day in sixth grade at Boston's Clarence R. Edwards Middle School.

"I was like, 'Wow, are you serious?'" she said. "That's three more hours I won't be able to chill with my friends after school."


Read more: More school: Obama would curtail summer vacation

[bluestateguy]

1. The good students shouldn't have to spend more time in school

but the bad students should. Summer school should be used more often for kids who clearly are not prepared to be promoted upward to the next grade.

[frebrd]

Glad he wasn't around when I was in school!

Sorry, meant to reply to the OP.

[saigon68]

171. He'd FIRST BETTER PROTECT his Honor students in his Hometown

That Place +++ Chicago +++ looks more and more Like Saigon every day.


Get out of school

and get BEATEN TO DEATH WITH A 2 X 4

Wielded by a gang of murdering Hoodlums

Ya that's the ticket all right.

<< Numbers 35:18 >>

King James Bible
Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

[ixion]

2. ouch... that's not going to be popular

As a child, I lived for summer vacation.

[Gwereeya]

122. I can hear the wingnuts now:

"OH MY GOD OH MY GOD THE EXTRA TIME IS FOR INDOCTRINATION!!!"

[Dappleganger]

3. 8 weeks off total for summer vacation

But additional hours in school would not be good for all of the extra-curricular activities our kids participate in, not including their part-time jobs.

Sorry, but kids need down-time (as well as teachers!).

[Aramchek]

14. you do realize that our kids spend most of those hours watching TV, don't you?

I guess you don't want them missing any of their Corporate Education, huh?

[ironrooster]

28. My kids don't watch TV - in fact we don't have a TV connection.

We have the TV for dvds and such. BTW, they're pretty good students. They don't even have a
desire to watch TV. They spend their time doing volunteer work and reading and playing music.

This whole extended school year thing is BS.

[AlbertCat]

66. My kids don't watch TV - in fact we don't have a TV connection.

And you're JUST LIKE the average American Family! You represent the typical student/family! :eyes:

[Igel]

55. CP Snowe's 2 Cultures idea re-applied.

That's a bit simplistic, but close enough for here.

Some kids do very well in school, have vocabularies that schools don't challenge, study skills that the schools don't have to teach, have reading modeled for them and imitate reading; they make academic progress over the summer. They get with the program and even if they don't like a course tend to do well in it. They tend to be in the upper 50% of students on a consistent basis.

Other kids enter school with insufficient vocabularies, and as school progresses they fall further and further behind. They're not ready to read, and as time goes by they do significantly worse in reading because reading ability correlates with time spent reading. They lose academic achievement over the summer. They don't like the program and they tend to be in the 50% of students.

The difference is almost entirely the parents. Hence early intervention programs that help the children of parents who are poorer and less well educated and whose native language isn't "NBC English." Who don't grow up trained in traditional middle-class standards of behavior.

As an aside, the proposal Obama's front man for is also "progressive". After all, poorer, less well educated non-standard-English-speaking parents are likely to earn less and work less flexible jobs. They can use the free day care--after school programs and shorter summer vacations for paying for babysitters or worrying about their kids' behavior. (And they tend to have more kids, as well.)

By the way, the numbers of hours spent watching tv isn't exactly even distributed between the two cohorts, either.

[Dappleganger]

87. Not mine.

And they do quite well with public education, both in school and online, TYVM.

[demigoddess]

127. our short school years and days make no sense

visiting my son's school, I saw kids and teachers trying to do three things at once. I can't see how this is good for them. Longer school days would allow more attention to the kids who need more help and it would release pressure on the kids. Learning would be more in depth. Teachers would have smaller classes so they would not have the pressure on them. I have raised two gifted boys and had to do a lot of enrichment stuff with my kids, they never got enough of what they wanted out of school. I also have seen quite a few teachers who did not offer anything but cursory education for their students, and I do not think they needed three months vacation to get over it.

And for the person who thought intelligent kids should have more vacation time, haven't you heard about using them to help the others in grade school?? And in high school, I would offer them more advanced classes and offer two kinds of high school diploma. One for those who take more and harder courses. Kids also should be allowed to test out of required courses that they think they know. They would learn that they don't know, and teachers would be able to figure out what they did know.

[wpelb]

169. Not the problem

"visiting my son's school, I saw kids and teachers trying to do three things at once."

The problem is probably not the length of the school day or school year, but rather the size of the class. If there are 30-40 kids in the classroom, as is the case in many schools where budget cuts have resulted in teacher layoffs, it won't matter how long the school day or school year is: kids won't learn anything.

[PSPS]

4. This idea has popped up periodically for decades, but it never goes anywhere.

[marshall]

69. It will go somewhere now

Things that have been poppoing up for decades are suddenly on a realistic track to come to pass.

[goclark]

77. According to a google of the Top Countries for Education

The idea may need to be given some thought.

[marshall]

86. Year round school with shorter school days would be great

There are many extra curriculuar lessons my son has to fit in--piano, gymnastics, Camp Fire, sports, not to mention church and family. A shorter school day would afford us much more flexibility and allow him to participate in more things of our choosing outside of school.

[Cartoonist]

5. Summer Means Fun

A great Jan & Dean song. Extend the school day an hour or two, not three, and cut summer vacation by a month, but good grief, I wouldn't want the kids to miss out on what were the happiest days of my life. Even xmas couldn't compare to summer vacation.

[Art_from_Ark]

150. How right you are

Summer vacation-- three months of good times! Ushered in by commercials of a pelican and a seagull playing guitars and advising us to "Learn how to swim at the YMCA..." Swimming, roller skating, bicycling, baseball, kickball, and even time in the library studying, with a few school-sponsored activities thrown in for good measure.

[mainer]

168. But summer school can be loads of fun

It doesn't have to be drudgery. It can be pure enrichment, with art, music, foreign languages, and great books. When I was a kid (in California) summer school meant taking cool classes that you couldn't take during the regular school year. And they were pass/fail, so there was no pressure to perform. It ended up feeling more like summer camp than school.

I don't understand why parents think that learning new stuff is SUCH a bummer that they want to spare their kids from it for 8 weeks every year.

[onehandle]

6. Our entire country is weakened by our cling to ancient ways.

As usual, Europe has it right.

[depakid]

88. Yep- weights & measures & archaic notions of an elite, undemocratic Senate come to mind

[wordpix]

111. lol, no way are we Amurricuns gonna learn metric!

:crazy:

[wordpix]

110. our agrarian roots called for the kids to help on the farm but

we're well past those "ancient ways" now, for sure.

[One_Life_To_Give]

125. nah, we just hire migrants instead

There was a time when the schools would shut down to bring in the harvest. Not so long ago, as I spent a couple summers working in the Tobacco fields. But the kids are n o longer applying for these jobs. So migrant workers take their places.

[Zhade]

114. Yeah, like Bronze Age mythologies.

NT!

[One_Life_To_Give]

124. Everyone should take August off?

Excepting those who run Restaurants, Hotels, and other tourist caring jobs.

[soleiri]

7. I wouldn't mind an hour more of school

If they stopped giving homework in the lower grades and only gave a limited amount in the upper grades.

Kids need time to have fun and be kids.

[Roland99]

8. I always wanted longer school years for my kids.

I'd prefer two weeks off for them in spring and fall and about 2 months in summer. Many times I wanted to go on family vacations *not* in summer but couldn't take the kids out of school.

[Vattel]

9. Careful President Obama

You have done a lot to move us towards evidence-based govt, but where is the evidence that more time in school will help? (And don't cite some methodologically-challenged study.)

[Igel]

56. Do you like early intervention programs?

Do you think they work?

If yes, there's your evidence.

These programs work. Granted, they're mostly there for political points and don't accomplish all that much. They bring disadvantaged kids up to grade level (as far as tests go) for first and second grade, and nearly so for 3rd. By 4th the effects are diminishing and by 5th and 6th largely gone. (Yes, there's a significant effect on college attendance, but "significant" here is a statistical term and doesn't mean "large" or even really "meaningful". The effect can be detected and is actually there, not ephemeral, but is really small.)

They do pretty much nothing for middle class kids. I suspect more can be said about that, but I haven't read the relevant literature. In any event, most such programs serve the cohorts they need to serve. Of course, people try to believe that all cohorts would benefit from them, but the chief benefit for middle class families is free day care. Come to think of it, considering the awesome long-term affects on working-class kids, that's the chief benefit there, too.

The proposal would, it seems, continue early intervention programs and make them rather less pointless. At the same time it's a way to provide additional subsidized day-care that most better off people can't argue against paying for. Additional weeks of free breakfasts and lunches, and maybe the possibility of free dinners, for those with family incomes below a certain point.

[bluestateguy]

10. I should add one more thing

There is a big tourist industry in this country that could be expected to lobby fiercely against such a proposal: think of all the parents who would not be able to go on vacation now if the kids are in school.

[mopinko]

106. in wisconsin the tourist industry got a delay in the start of the school year

so that the kids that worked for them would be available until labor day weekend. they would be fighting this on both those fronts- their customers and their work force. expect blood on the floor.

[Aramchek]

11. oh my, Obama really wants our kids to compete with countries who have surpassed us in Education?

for shame!!
:sarcasm:

[Oregone]

27. If he wants America to truly compete, tariff these surpassing nations whose workers toil for nothing

And, how about, REAL universal healthcare!

[Aramchek]

78. you know why those foreign workers get our tech jobs? because they had better educations, on average

[girl gone mad]

92. Not even close.

They get our jobs because they will work for much less.

[Aramchek]

102. but they can do the job well in the first place because they had good educations

though it sucks,
it only makes sense that US Businesses would prefer PHDs or Master's degree holders with 4.0s who don't demand much money
as opposed to Americans who barely got their Bachelor's and feel entitled to a high wage.

[Oregone]

118. So can Americans.

We just want to get paid a real standard of living after spending over 100K on college. That is not unreasonable.

[w4rma]

113. Bullshit. It's all about the low living wage in their respective countries and nothing more. (nt)

[Oregone]

117. Nice right wing talking point

I am very confident in my education, thank you. I just wont work for the going rate after the tech bubble crashed. I could of made that plumbing or being an electrician.

[Psephos]

156. Being an electrician or plumber requires more skills and knowledge than your tech job.

When I hear those kind of comments belittling a skilled trade, I know that the person saying them is actually the uneducated one.

[Oregone]

159. No, neither do

Obtaining a BSCS required half a major in math also, including a variety of 400 level courses in that adjacent field. We studied beyond programming and languages, to logic, math, and theory starting right on down with Turing machines. From databases, graphics, cryptography, hardware, OO programming, etc, no stone was left unturned. Thats the reality.

And in my current job, I had to take all that academic knowledge and use it as a wrapper to self learn an entirely new set of languages, applications, hardware, and approaches with my new field (which is internet related). No, I do not have less skills and knowledge than those tradesmen. There are fewer of us that do this, and the demand, which correlates to our pay, is of course higher.

What you suggest drips in silliness. I am not belittling a skilled trade WHATSOEVER. But apprenticeship programs for those would have cost far less, if anything, and would have resulted in a profession that paid far less (unless I was a sole-proprietor). I have friends who have gone that route. Id encourage my kids to do the same if they have no love for another field (though I am a big fan of a liberal arts education). But I chose to get a liberal arts education at one of the top universities in the country, and graduate with Honors in Computer Science. I expect to get paid a far bit more than others I graduated with who became tradesmen. If I didn't, I would of went that route myself (and saying that is not belittling those fields at all)

[Psephos]

164. Your degree takes four years. Becoming a journeyman electrician in the US takes five.

And that's just for journeyman, not master. Add three more for that (at least).

By the way, those are full-time, 37 to 40-hour/wk years. Plus six hours/wk classroom. Makes college look like a vacation.

I've been through academia, entrepreneurial business, and real-world trades. College was by far the easiest. I had a double major, math and English, minor in CS. Plus, did the full pre-med curriculum too, before deciding I liked other things better. I never seemed to miss dollar-pitcher specials on the weekends, though...and sometimes on a Thursday night, too. As I recall, a "brutal" day at school might mean five hours in a classroom or lab. Usually less.

My real education came later, when I finally realized how little one actually learns in the supposed centers of learning, and how much one learns with the five senses, mentors, books, and curiosity. College is a scam that leaves the majority of graduates with a mortgage-level debt but no house. Degrees have devolved into not much more than a grade-inflated certificate of attendance, and proof that one knows how to repeat politically correct statements when necessary.

CS jobs involve a lot of chair and KB time, and thinking while munching pizza. I should know; I started a software firm when I was 27. Yes, in larger companies, cubicle politics can be brutal - tell me, though, how college prepared you (or anyone) for that most important of all white-collar skills: being a successful office politician? I am not being facetious.

From my direct observation, skilled electricians (and plumbers) do considerably more work with both their heads and their hands than KB jockeys. Because it involves manipulating tangible objects instead of code objects, it's looked down on here in America by the "educated" class. Not so in Europe, not so in Japan. Look up the German system on Wikipedia or similar. Read about it.

You gave your true feelings away in your first post. Yet the electricity you use to create your code, as well as your DU posts, is literally routed through the creations of those you think are worth less money than you.

The world could get by without the likes of you and me far easier than it could the people who design, fabricate, and maintain our infrastructure, keep gas and water flowing to warm and bathe us, keep our jetliners in the air, our factories humming, our telecommunications networks flinging packets hither and yon. Be happy you can command more money than the people who make the world work. It has little to do with your superiority or the quality of your education, and much to do with the economic caste structures of our culture.

[Oregone]

165. Ah, so its all about the length of time, eh?

You work/learn in a field for 5 years and you are a skilled, educated tradesman

You cram, sweat, stress and study in an academic setting for 4 years and you are a prima donna who demands too much money? BTW, I study constantly since graduating too to keep up on a rapidly evolving field. Its non-stop reading, learning and researching in my off hours. And Id imagine if more people COULD do what Ive done, they would have, and they would have had the opportunities I have (but not everyone *can* do it).

From my direct observation, skilled electricians (and plumbers) do considerably more work with both their heads and their hands than KB jockeys

This is the stupidest generalization I have ever seen. Just pure dumb, laced with a negative connotation for computer scientists (Keyboard jockeys). You are really the one here attacking one's profession from the start.

You gave your true feelings away in your first post.

I don't think you understand, AT ALL. I said if I wanted to get paid those wages typically associated with my field, I wouldn't of bothered with the university and regimented study. I would of just become a plumber or a electrician through an apprenticeship program. Why? Because I like trades! You get it yet? Its not an undermining statement. I went ahead and took the more rigorous academic route to secure a more lucrative future. I don't think any less of those trades, and they were a viable choice I decided not to take (some of my friends have).

Be happy you can command more money than the people who make the world work. It has little to do with your superiority or the quality of your education, and much to do with the economic caste structures of our culture.

You are swinging about blindly here. It has nothing to do with my economic caste. My father is a carpenter/wood-crafter/framer. I pounded nails for 15 years, learning the trade, and earning money during college. From the lowest quintile, from a blue-collar family, I somehow ended up first in my class and was able to have a prestigious college paid for (so were my siblings). We just got lucky. I'm not some loftily son of a millionaire, whatsoever, but rather a statistical anomaly. I grew up working with my hands and chose to take a road that would be a bit easier on my body and my wallet. That doesn't mean I look down at those jobs I previously said I would have taken if I wasn't concerned about wage disparity.

You are barking up the wrong tree

[Psephos]

166. Not at all...but that's ok

I've expressed my opinions and my experiences, and so have you. I'm content to leave it at that. :)

[Oregone]

167. Your opinion is that Im a prima donna, silver-spooned "keyboard jockey" with an inferior education

It seems like a lot of ignorant generalizations and insults you are so content with

[notadmblnd]

120. bullhsit! have you ever talked to one of those people on the phone?

it's more than just a communication/language problem. Ask the people who work along side the H1B visa holders how much smarter they are? They work cheaper and that is all, they are not smarter nor more educated in general.

[DatManFromNawlins]

172. You're clueless

But thanks for trying.

The bottom line is money. As in, they get paid half the rate and are on the hook for 3 years before they can pursue their green cards. There isn't enough money or time in the world to train college students on every computer system and software environment out there. Typically, a student goes into the workforce with solid knowledge of logic and theory and mathematics and development and grows from there by learning from more experienced developers and working within the system.

Companies find this a waste of money. BUT, if they can pay a visa holder half what they'd pay an American employee AND keep their visa for 3 years, it's much more tolerable a trade off. There are a LOT of H1-B holders who come to this country vastly undertrained. But they get the benefit of the doubt. Ownership has its privileges after all.

[Mithreal]

12. A disadvantage because Americans' jobs are no longer protected

Our kids must be able to compete with the world's children who are willing to work for less than a dollar a day.

Oh wait, the President really doesn't want those jobs back.

[Fearless]

13. Sure but how are you paying teachers for that?

[RayOfHope]

19. +1. This will never go anywhere because of that fact. They pay me little enough as it is. n/t

[Fearless]

53. Indeed. I work in a state with higher than average pay and it's still frustrating.

:banghead:

[checks-n-balances]

71. Damn right! n/t

[Oregone]

29. I know a lot of teachers who are working 4 days a week now with 10% pay cuts

Yeah, this probably won't happen

[noamnety]

82. Another unfunded mandate, most likely

The rumor around here is that the state's about to chop about $200 per student in our state funding (now that contracts are already signed and school is in session - we're supposed to magically make it happen).

Cut more and more pay, increase hours, keep pretending teachers are making X amount per hour because so much of the work we do is at home on our "free" time that they want to cut into.

And even with the teachers working extra hours for free, you know there won't be any extra money coming for building maintenance, utilities, busing, class supplies (the extra days and hours will magically use no supplies at all, I suppose).

[Fearless]

95. In other words, business as usual.

:banghead:

[donco6]

142. We were "given" $800,000 in funding -

- but told "not to spend it." They're going to ask for it back in their state Supplemental in January.

What a crock.

[wordpix]

109. it's time for a WPA-type program. We gave billion$ to investment banks but

we have none for teachers to help kids in the summer while their parents work?

That's just great---throw the kids on the street and let them sit in front of the TV and take drugs. That's what great summer vacations are made of!

:sarcasm:

[donco6]

144. Here's the cost:

In our district in Colorado, average teacher pay with basic benefits (first-person health, PERA, Medicare and some other stuff) is right at $60,000. Total "moveable" benefits are another 15% per additional day. That's for 184 days. So for each extra day, you'd pay about $375. Move to a true year round schedule and you're talking 265 days with 2 weeks paid vacation (just as an example). That's $3,038 per teacher. Multiply by our 350 teachers and the extra cost just for salaries is $1,063,300. That's for a small district of 6,000 kids.

Good luck with that.

[Fearless]

15. Incidentally the argument about adding another hour to the day instead...

Is a very bad idea. If you're going to add to the school year, do so in days not in hours. Kids are bleary eyed enough, another hour or two a day is just going to further encourage tuning out for both students and teachers for that matter.

[Igel]

60. Don't teach.

Just have it be monitored study hall.

Perhaps after a 20 minute break.

After all, that was my 1-12 years (I'd have written K-12, but I had no K--K at the time served the purpose pre-K does now). Get up, go to school, walk/bus home, do homework first thing (except maybe take a bio break between arriving at home and doing homework).

Since there was seldom more than an hour between conclusion of homework and onset of dinner, the usual injunction was to go and read something. By middle school it was habit. An additional 5 hours a week, 180 hours per academic year, spent in reading was great for reading fluency and vocabulary building.

It was a real bummer in winter because it meant that outside when the sun was up was reserved for the weekends and holidays. But it served me well, academically.

[dkf]

16. This is hilarious as Hawaii just cut 3 days out of the month for the

school year to deal with the budget. And instead of getting rid of non-instructional days they decided to get rid of real school days.

I'm wondering if the teacher's union did the best thing for our kids. They should have gotten rid of the non-instruction days first, then gone into instructional time. Also, Oregon started doing longer school days 4 days a week, but that wasn't even brought up as an option. Most kids waste their time in an afterschool play program anyway. I don't think Obama's plan is going to fly here.

[Fearless]

17. Trust me... Longer school days are a worst case scenario...

I teach high school to bleary eyed kids as it is. They will not do better (which should be our goal) by giving them a longer day. If anything, it should be shorter like many European nations.

[madrchsod]

21. what ? the europeans have shorter school hours!

how can they compete with the kids of the rest of the world?

[ironrooster]

24. they compete b/c they have a two track system for the kids -

college bound and vocational. Also, they don't waste their time in class with students pasting images to bookcovers so as to
have a bucket of "pad" grades for the students whose refuse to do their homework in order to make sure the
school keeps its "ranking".

[Fearless]

32. Yes they do... some quite a bit shorter...

But also more days. Kids have a hard enough time to concentrate for 6 1/2 hours a day. Honestly, I think before we all make decisions about school days and school hours, the parents of children should have to spend a week going to school instead of their kids. And also show them a video recording of their own child's day at school. I think it would be enlightening. Then there are other issues you have to look at... An extra hour means an extra school period to be taught as well... Will we be adding another class to each teacher, or hiring more teachers? Where will the money come from for either. Likewise, if we add a class to each teacher, does it hurt the quality of the education they give. Most teachers spend several hours after each day finishing the day's work and prepping for the next day.

Personally, my weeks look something like this...

5:30-6:30am- Wake up and collect all the things I need to return to students, all the things for the day's lessons, eat, shower, and so on.

7:30am-3pm- school starts... (we run on block scheduling, where students take four classes for half a year and then four more for another half a year) and I teach 3 of 4 periods. (Also lunch duty, hall duty, etc.) Three classes equals somewhere between 60 and 90 students (all of whom will have papers and quizzes to correct, etc.)

The day ends at 2pm but I'll likely have at least one student after school, either for extra help or detention. Or else I'll spend an hour or so madly finishing tests or quizzes so that I don't have to bring them home. I'll also photocopy papers for the next day. Although I don't, some teachers also coach sports teams (they'll be done by 5 or 6pm many days, sometimes later if there's a game).

When I get home I'll spend some time getting any papers or whatnot that needs correcting done before dinner. I'll eat, many times with papers in front of me. And I'll spend the rest of the night (literally until between 10pm and midnight) preparing for the next class.

I'll get to bed by midnight to wake up around 5:30am the next day and do it all over again.

On weekends I plan out all of my lessons and put together presentations, packets, tests, essays, find videos, activities, etc. probably taking at least one full day. Maybe I'll get Sunday off. The thing is, even when you're not doing anything school related, you're always ALWAYS thinking about it. I self evaluate, how did that class go, do they know what I was trying to show them, how much review do they need, what am I going to do about XYZ, etc.

ADDITIONALLY, because I teach in Massachusetts, we have to deal with MCAS (a statewide achievement test) and we have to make sure to go over all of the material on it provided by the state's curriculum standards or the school might not make its numbers that year and be on the road to being taken over by the state.


------

So I'll spend around 8-9 hours a day at school, five days a week; spend up to 7-8 MORE hours a night prepping and finishing; and spend most of Saturday or Sunday trying to come up with new ways to sell the important points on HUAC to teenagers.

Honestly, you could give me another class period. But it will come out of my prep time. And I can't function with less sleep. :(

[ironrooster]

37. It's good to hear from someone on the ground -

What do you think about the actual curriculum? Do you find yourself having to compensate for students
who very obviously don't have sufficient support at home and are not inclined to study and mentally attend in class?

[Fearless]

42. There's something they drill into you when in college education classes...

That students don't leave their problems at the door. They don't. Neither do teachers. Everyone walks through the classroom door with the problems, concerns, etc. that they had outside school. Lack of support at home is (IMHO) the number one reason why students don't want to learn. Teenagers are bundles of emotions that they don't yet understand. Most of all they are frustrated and take that out on themselves mentally (and sometimes physically as well). They mirror their parents' attitudes too. I had a girl in a US history class last year who swore that all Korean people ate cats. Since she was an animal lover, she hated Koreans. All of them. Period. It didn't matter what I tried to say, she didn't care. They were all evil to her. Her grandfather fought in Korea and taught her this. How do I teach about the Korean War now? General MacArthur said we should carpet nuke North Korea and China during the war. She agrees! She couldn't understand why he was fired. She has friends in the class who respect her opinion (as friends tend to do) more than mine. How do I combat that? :banghead:

With curriculum it's a constant struggle between teaching what you need to for MCAS, what you think is valuable, and what students are wondering about. For instance, I was teaching WWII in US history, which doesn't require me to talk about the Holocaust (because it was more European than US). The state standards require a brief mention of it. I believe that students should realize that it was one of the lessons we need to take from WWII. And the students themselves usually are particularly interested in it. How much time do I take to teach it. In passing like the state wants, in an activity showing the lessons we must learn from it like I want, or spend a day watching a movie or documentary on it (in all it's gruesomeness I might add) as many students want? If I do what the state wants, I will teach more material but students will be less invested and less interested. They will learn less. If I do what I want, students will be left hanging on something they want to know more about, be annoyed with me, and tune out more often. The state standards will suffer and so might MCAS scores (in a few years when history becomes a part of the test). If I spend a day watching a documentary (which I have a REALLY good one that I know they will like) so that they can understand fully the outcome of the Holocaust and why it's important today, we will lose a day of teaching the rest of WWII which they need to know for the state. :banghead:

It's about compromise. I need to realize that I will not be able to teach them everything they want to know, or everything the state wants them to know, or everything I want them to know. No one will be 100% happy. If you try to do so, you will burn out students. Likewise, do you want students to memorize the facts of WWI (for instance)? The Battle of the Somme, Verdun, Gavrillo Princip, etc. Do you want students to be able to discuss them in context? To draw conclusions from them? To use these examples to see patterns in the future? Each becomes increasingly more time consuming to do, but the latter is the most beneficial to them and to the world in the future.

In a perfect world, I could do so much. But we don't live in a perfect world, and the best lesson a teacher must learn is how to be flexible and how not to take things personally. (And I haven't even talked about behavior!) It's a wonder that many teachers drink a WHOLE lot more than you might think.

[ironrooster]

50. godbless/nt

[dkf]

34. Isn't simply cutting out Fridays worse than a longer school day?

Teachers have to work on those days anyway. How's about making Wednesday a regular day instead of early?

[Fearless]

36. For students... probably.

For teachers, unlikely.

Students tune out very quickly. The average student does NOT want to go to school AT ALL. They will not recognize Friday as a relief. They will only see the 8hr day as longer and will begin to tune out comparatively sooner in the day.

[Oregone]

31. "I'm wondering if the teacher's union did the best thing for our kids."

I'm privy to a bit of the union activity in Oregon. Let me tell you: this was not an easy decision (and may be more about the budget than the end result on the children). But, had some districts decided to keep 5 days, HUGE numbers of young teachers would of been jobless. The alternative was 4 days, a pay cut (so older teachers retire with less), and everyone keeps their job (it was lose-lose). The teachers' recognize the challenge of teaching under these conditions and do their best to manage with fewer days.

Its also about principle. If the older teachers demanded their full pensions and pay going into retirement, they are encouraging an economy where workers are dispensable and selfish needs prevail. Its a bit hypocritical to claim you care about the education of children, and their futures, when you are destroying the future for some of those kids that just grew up and entered teaching.

The situation just was really fucked up and a lot of animosity was brought on by a lack of funding. The bottom line is, a couple less missiles would of saved every day and everyone's jobs.

[Fearless]

38. I love how we sacrifice our child's edcuation for money.

[Oregone]

40. The alternative was sacraficing our grown up children in the guised name of education

But the flip side would of been understaffed, overcrowded classrooms from a teachers shortage.

The district I was most familiar with that did this (which I went to), well....I had good friends who were on the chopping block. Their names were on a list for slated termination. These same friends were, but 10 years ago, being taught by the same older teachers who objected to the pay cut. They were children in this area, whose future used to be more important to many people before it became a bargaining chip. Im happy for the people I know, when it was said and done, that kept their job.

The unions did what they had to in order to protect their workers. The real problem here isn't the unions. Its political and systematic. NEVER should they had to choose between fewer days or overcrowded classrooms. And never should the solution be framed as a greed for money over children's need. Jobs were on the line, every solution sucked, and the true problem is the political leadership failed in funding the schools

[Fearless]

43. I was talking about greed from the political system and taxpayers not teachers or admin.

To clarify.

Never should money come in the way of a strong education for our children.

[Oregone]

46. Gotcha. And thats the real problem there

Taxpayers fork it over for war. Not for healthcare or education. Insane

[Igel]

63. The non-instructional days are important, too.

They can be useful in getting the faculty all on the same page, or having in-service programs that count towards the required number of "professional development" hours.

[madrchsod]

18. kids should go to school.....

five eight hour days and if needed mandatory overtime on saturdays. they will be entitled to two ten minute breaks and a 20 minute lunch hour. the first three months they can not be absent and will be reviewed for work performance.after 60 days they will accrue 1.4 hour a week toward their vacation/sick time. any remaining sick leave/ vacation will not be rolled into the following year. the company reserves the right to change any of these rules/ procedures at any time.

we need to get these kids ready for the wonderful world of american business!

[Oregone]

33. And levy heavy fines for children who fail to meet the mandates n/t

They need to know how great their lives will be toiling away for employer provided healthcare

[winyanstaz]

20. Damn right they should be in school!

Why should America's children be allowed to be kids? Make them study the crap they feed them harder and longer...and maybe they will be better sheeple when they get out.
Heaven knows we won't teach them to think for themselves nor will we tell them the truth about our history..let alone train any of them to be able to have a real job. But at least they will be babysat by the state and learn to spy on each other and their parents and learn to obey the rules and memorize their test answers.

[girl gone mad]

94. That's my feeling, too.

Why not let kids spend time being kids rather than constantly training them to be good corporate slaves?

[AngryAmish]

22. Do you think for one minute that the teachers would allow this?

No way.

[Arcana]

130. Agrred, teaching is one of the hardest jobs next to being a parent.

I can't imagine myself staying up for hours on end grading papers.

[ironrooster]

23. What a dumb idea

Kids don't need to spend more time in school, they need to better spend their time while in school.

The myth (the more BS you eat the better it tastes) that is being sold to Americans is that we can have a first class public education system
without the
1) requisite discipline on the part of the children to actually STUDY
2) the requisite parenting skills to encourage the children to STUDY
3) a curriculum WORTHY of STUDY

This Myth is not helpful b/c parents are being sold a line of BS that will further exacerbate the
1) income divide/ class divide
2) educational divide

If summer vacation goes - then I'll simply send my middle class child to a private school.
Currently, three of mine are in traditional public schools and another is in a charter school.

It's like Obama is trying to kill public education by making it so unpalatable for (some) parents.
I'm sure some parents would get excited about this (not having to find their children sitters or
activities during the summer)... but we usually take a vacation in the summer or do other fun
things with the kids.

[Oregone]

25. "challenges of a new century demand more time in the classroom"

When is enough, enough? How about moving the average work week to 54 hours? To 60?

Even if Americans can compete with others (who will work for pennies on the dollar, with no tariffs to level the playing field), will they ever have time to enjoy the fruit of their labors? How smart do children need to be? How productive must they become? Do any of those objective measures translate, quantifiably, to one's level of happiness.

[Oregone]

26. "Our school calendar is based upon the agrarian economy"

So, now that kids do actually have time to just be kids (and not labor in fields), we gotta fuck that up too

[ironrooster]

30. you're right - it's quantity over quality/nt

[Fearless]

35. It absolutely is...

The system doesn't care who you are, what you do, so long as you meet standards. Overachieve? Who has time?

[ironrooster]

39. You know, that is the thing isn't it? Who has the time?

My daughter is a big reader - she actually likes 19th and early 20th century lit.; and really picks up
the pace during the summer. So what are they going to have her doing that is worth more than
reading Hardy or Lawrence? No school solution is going to please everyone - but what we have now
is a mess (and it's not b/c of the teachers, whom I greatly admire).

[Fearless]

48. It's all based of a industrial revolution era model.

There are actually books written on it. Rigid schedules, lunch breaks, the student-teacher relationship, desks, rows of desks with the teacher at front (theory based on the idea that learning is a one way street from teacher to students), bell schedules, recitation and repetition, and a fewer old school things that have passed on (thankfully) lining up in the hallways, standing when an administrator enters, the chant response "Yes Mr./Ms. XYZ", etc.

It's methodical and clinical. It tries to fit all students into the same mold from start to finish. The problem is that if you do the same thing for each student, you will get different results.

[Odin2005]

61. I have pointed that out for a long time.

It's training kids to be good little worker drones. Pathetic and disgusting.

[Fearless]

62. Obedient workers who are just smart enough to run the machines...

Yet too stupid to realize how badly they're being screwed.

[WriteDown]

103. We would be much better with a system like Japan....

Two-tiered.

[Art_from_Ark]

152. I'm in Japan

and I've had plenty of experience with Japan's school system, but I'm a little confused about what you mean by "two-tiered".

[mopinko]

108. and people who opt out of that, and school their kids themselves

are insane, according to a whole lot of folks here at du.
that's what i did, tho.

[Dinger]

161. + 1

[Owl]

41. Year-round school? Forget that. Yuck.

[shanti]

112. good grief - it's not like the year round school idea is something new!

:eyes: my kids' school district never had that as an option (they're all grown now), but i would LOVE to have had them in a year round situation. school for approximately 2.5 months, 6 weeks off, then back to school, rinse and repeat. people i know whose kids have it, love it. you don't have to search for 3 months in a row of child care in the summer, the kids retain more, AND the opportunity is there to take vacations year round, not just in the heat of summer.

[msongs]

44. another pitch for corporate education, non-union minimum wage teachers lol nt

[IndianaGreen]

47. +1 rec

You are absolutely right! Obama is undermining public education, and pushing for schools that only teach how to do well in tests, rather than provide a well rounded education.

When I was growing up, summer vacation began with Memorial Day and ended with Labour Day. We were better educated than the kids that go to year round education today.

[Fearless]

49. The only reason I'm not worried about that...

No one would teach if they could work at Walmart for the same amount of money.

[Jkid]

45. A compromise

Extend the school year so that it begins the day after labor day and ends at the first day of summer.

[Fearless]

51. But in a time where budgets are being fixed by taking scheduled days off...

How could we pay for this. Even though I agree this is the best option, politically, it's unrealistic.

[JerseygirlCT]

52. Longer hours might be tough for the little ones, if enough

"wiggle time" wasn't also programmed in. And all kids need some time to just do nothing at all. But I agree with the idea.

[noel711]

54. sorry gang, the President is right on this one...

And don't play the "summer vacation was the best..
let kids be kids.." card on this one.

The world in which is live is very different.

Of course when I (and many of you) was growing up,
we lived for summer vacation. Sure.. my mother was home
with us, as were most of the moms in the neighborhood.
But is that true these days?
Most moms who work have to find summer day care or camps
so kids are supervised. It's no fun for parents to have
to skip work days if the kids have no one to watch them.

And from a former teacher's perspective (me!), every September
when the kids came back to school, we spent at least the first
six weeks reviewing so the kids could read/calculate/write
on grade level. Yes.. the kids lose some of their skills while
they're out riding bikes and 'being kids.'

It's true: our present system evolved out of a rural, agrarian
culture. The farmers no longer need their kids to help plant,
and harvest crops any longer. We need to examine how our culture
has changed, and then adapt the learning systems to the needs
of the clients, i.e., the students.

Kids can be kids all year, but trying to cram in 12 months worth
of learning into 9 or 10 months, plus all the other things that teachers
are responsible for just isn't working any more.

I'm with the PResident on this one: schools should be open all 12 months;
there should be a rotation system, with 6 to 8 weeks of learning, and then
a short time period of downtime.. that can be built into a school system as sports
or camp.. a different kind of learning. And parents can decide what segment of the
year will be 'family vacation,' so they can have time as a family away. IF they
can afford a vacation away these days.

But teachers should be able to structure their time so they also have downtime,
and time off... not expect them to work all 12 months either.

Schools ideally should be as a mini-community center that have structured learning,
sports, music, the arts, and other activities available. Schools should also have
on-site clinics to provide health services for students, libraries, nutrition centers
to provide healthy meals for students, and day care centers for staff children, and
also structure in community volunteers to help take the service load off the paid staff.

Call me a dreamner... but our education system needs an overhaul.. its
terminal...

[Fearless]

58. It's not about what we think is right or wrong...

It's about what will benefit students most.

There are legitimate concerns for ALL systems of education. Benefits and negatives. We do need to change things. But unfortunately, most of the best ideas are not going to be listened to because they necessitate raising taxes. The same to pay for longer school years; they won't pay for it. We are not a nation of preventative measures, unfortunately. (Just look at the medical system.)

I'm all for ending two wars and turning a substantial amount of money to schools, teacher education, quality research and discovery, and any number of policy changes, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[ironrooster]

64. No... Obama is wrong on this -

Your statement:

"Kids can be kids all year, but trying to cram in 12 months worth
of learning into 9 or 10 months, plus all the other things that teachers
are responsible for just isn't working any more."

You're right - but good percentage of that 12 months worth of "learning" isn't learning at
all, but merely busy work or indoctrination or teaching to the test (mile wide - inch deep).

So your argument assumes that the curiculum is sound. I would say in many states, it is not.
So why are we trying to CRAM (in your words) this material of dubious value down our childrens throats?

I have several years of postgraduate work (as does my spouse)and can teach our own kids if we have to put up with such
bullshit. We can use Thirty Years of Treason - Excerpts from the Hearings before the House Committee on Un-American
Activities 1938 - 1968 as a source book for MY History class. Oh my bad! They get that information anyway.

[Odin2005]

57. As I said in the GD thread, this is a bad idea.

Let kids be kids, they need free time to wonder, daydream, and explore.

[Fearless]

59. Have you seen the George Carlin sketch on this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHtOSq0o7Ps#t=4m18s

[Odin2005]

65. Bingo!

Love Carlin!

[Stumbler]

67. Interesting ideas

I like the idea of increasing the overall school year through most of the summer months. Instead of the current vacation schedule of a week in winter, a week in spring and three months in summer, we could reduce it to two weeks off every quarter, or three weeks per trimester.

I think extending school hour availability is a good idea, so long as it's optional, not mandatory. Encouraging students to stay late for extra curricular activities has proven to be good for the students' development, as well as reducing neighborhood crime from idle hands with nothing to do and no supervision. But I think if you make it mandatory, you'll hurt the moral of teachers and students alike. Make it optional, but encourage it often.

I almost forgot: The big question is how we'll pay for those extra hours and days? Americans have proven time and again that they will only pay taxes for wars and corporate bail-outs, NOT education or health care for our families. Sadly.

[AlbertCat]

68. How about taking 50% of sports time and using it as academic time instead That should equal... oh..

... 4 months!

[defendandprotect]

74. Right . .. sports have overtaken education . . . and the money for it . . .

We were treated to $1 tax bill for astroturf for a soccer field!!!

:evilgrin:

All of the sports schedules have been expanded -- in some cases I think doubled --

over the years --

what argument for this was used I have no idea --

but, it's a lot of pressure instead of a lot of fun --

[Fearless]

90. Sports and club activites are vital to social development.

[st8grad93]

93. How about taking 50% of music / arts and using it for math /science ...

and leave the time the way it is. Music / arts should be extra-curicular activities.

[Arcana]

133. There is an entire campaign out there to save the arts and music in school

Good luck on that.

[Bill McBlueState]

140. kids don't know crap about non-pop culture as it is

And you want to exacerbate this?

[marshall]

70. Quality of life vs. Production

I feel like we don't pay enough attention to quality of life, certainly not as much as Europe, where work weeks are being cut and vacations increased.

If Japan and China want to drive the global bus, I say let 'em. We've driven it long enough.

[defendandprotect]

75. We should have reduced the work week long ago -- 5 hour days --!!!

Everyone could be working --

MEDICARE FOR ALL -- EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT --

[defendandprotect]

72. Not a good idea . . . kids need a rest --

but we should also have child care more available --

and more interesting things for them to do --

our libraries are too often closed when school is out --

And, meanwhile, they've been making the school year longer and shortening vacation time,

haven't they?

[Christa]

73. Do we really need 3 months vacation in summer?

I am an immigrant from South Africa and we had our week long spring and fall breaks, three weeks in winter and four weeks in summer.


♫

[defendandprotect]

76. Never been three months here . . . most I was aware of here on east coast .. .

was one week in June at the most thru July and August --

and now kids go back BEFORE Labor Day --

Two months or less at most now --

[humbled_opinion]

79. Yes We Can.

I love this molding our youth its hight time that we had a President that puts Personal Responsiblity on the front burner. Imagine Schools where kids actually learn something and extended class outs and schedules our children and their Children will be the most intelligent in the World.

Next Job Corps for kids.... I love this President.

[and-justice-for-all]

80. That is what they need, more education....

real education with real Science and Math.

But schools better get some assistance with longer school sessions.

I am also for students to wear uniforms to school.

[deadmessengers]

84. THIS

Make it a fully-funded mandate, and make the extra time used for mandatory science and math education, and I would ECSTATICALLY support this. I don't see that happening, though - I can see it being only partially funded and schools being allowed to fritter this extra time away on sports.

[orleans]

81. well, there goes his 0-17 support. n/t

[deadmessengers]

83. Good idea in theory.

The problem I have is that schools like my daughter's high school will just use the time for more sports bullshit. They didn't have time to show the President's dropout-prevention speech, but they found time to pull kids out of class for a mandatory homecoming pep rally. They need to get rid of that nonsense first, and then we can talk about how the extra time provided by year-round schooling would be used.

[WriteDown]

104. You're right....

They should be run more like prisons. Go to class, learn, and then go to the next class. Its the unnecessary frivolity that gets in the way of learning. :eyes:

[BigBluenoser]

85. I may be a bit of a romantic...

But I lived for summer vacations... varmint hunting, fishing, baseball, hikes, summer jobs, pretty girls, good friends and books like...
http://www.amazon.com/Dandelion-Wine-Ray-Bradbury/dp/0380977265/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254090939&sr=8-2

It would make me sad to see those days disappear forever. I know not all students have an "idyllic" summer environment, but we could work on that problem and not just extend jail for another 2.5 months.

I'm finishing up my PhD, and I am committed to learning, but man oh man, no summers would have been downright miserable. Sounds like an industrialized nightmare to me.

[rmp yellow]

89. Japanese kids have more school days, yet they spend less hours in school per year than us

AP: "Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013). That is despite the fact that Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong have longer school years (190 to 201 days) than does the U.S. (180 days)."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iaZ6R77zq5_ZYc77h178ePWRNJwQD9AVLOCG0

[skygazer]

91. I love the way people on this thread are rhapsodizing over summer vacation

Kids don't need 3 months in a row off. Or 2 months in a row off. What summer vacation does is cause them to forget nearly everything they learned in the previous year and they spend the first month and a half back in school on review. Talk about a waste of time!

Yes, year-round school with vacations parceled out in weeks instead of months. Makes perfect sense, will mean fewer day-long latchkey kids in the summer, fewer hours spent on review and more on actually learning something new and maybe then our kids will be able to find the U.S. on a map or spell "dog." :eyes:

[AsahinaKimi]

96. I guess they can toss away that song by Alice Cooper...

Schools Out for Summer!! .. naw, its still fun to listen too..

[robcon]

97. Not to worry: the president doesn't decide school calendars.

School boards do.

[noamnety]

98. It's not quite that simple.

Our state governor made it a law that school can't start before labor day - not because it was best for students or education, but because it was best for the tourism industry. (Capitalism first.)

I'm sure if we can have state laws appear with no precedent, we can have federal laws mandating these things as well. Or they can tie funding to calendars as carrots and sticks.

[1776Forever]

99. Remember this is a man that had his Mother wake him at 5:30 am to go over his lessons!

He is like Tiger Woods of education. I think he really does believe that our children do not get enough educational studies. I would suggest going to the Japanese system:

The Japanese Education System - Education in Japan

By Namiko Abe, About.com

http://japanese.about.com/od/japaneselessons/a/061000.htm

.........Japan has one of the world's best-educated populations, with 100% enrollment in compulsory grades and zero illiteracy. While not compulsory, high school (koukou) enrollment is over 96% nationwide and nearly 100% in the cities. High school drop out rate is about 2% and has been increasing.　About 46% of all high school graduates go on to university or junior college.

The Ministry of Education closely supervises curriculum and textbooks, and classes with much the same content are taught throughout the country. As a result, a high standard of education becomes possible.

Student Life

Most schools operate on a three-term system with the new year starting in April. The modern educational system started in 1872 modeled after the French school system which began in April. The fiscal year in Japan also begins in April and ends in March of the following year, it is more convenient in many aspects. April is the height of spring when cherry blossom (the most loved flower of the Japanese!) bloom and a most suitable time for a new start in Japan. This difference in the school-year system causes some inconvenience to students who wish to study abroad in the U.S. A half year is wasted waiting to get in and often another year is wasted when coming back to the Japanese university because of having to repeat a year.

Except for the lower grades of elementary school, it is usual to average 6 hours of school a day on weekdays, one of the longest school days in the world. Even after school lets out, the children have drills and other homework to keep them busy. Vacations are 6 weeks in the summer and about 2 weeks each for winter and spring breaks. There is often homework over these vacations.

(More at link)

...............

Do you think "our" children are ready for that? Maybe if they want to keep up with the Joneses they should really try harder!

[WriteDown]

105. Preaching to MY choir here!

:)

[Art_from_Ark]

153. That's basically been my experience here in Japan

I might add a couple of things--
Japan used to have nationwide Saturday school, but phased that out starting in the mid-90s or so. Some private schools and public high schools still have Saturday classes.

Once a student enters junior high, a lot of after-school time is spent with "club activities", which may include either tennis, soccer, baseball, kendo, or band, among others. In the 3rd year (of both junior high and high school), the student usually has to drop out of his/her club to focus on preparing for entrance examinations (either for high school or university). A lot of kids also go to nighttime and/or weekend private tutorial schools called "juku" or "cram schools".

[Art_from_Ark]

154. Another thing

Many Japanese schools will sponsor a long field trip called "shugaku ryoko" or "excursion" at some time during the year. Private schools often have overseas excursions, which may include Korea, Malaysia, the UK or Australia as the destination.

[Blue_Tires]

100. i know hindsight is 20-20, but

i had a chance to see a year-round school up-close, and I think I could have been much more successful in that type of setting...

[47of74]

101. It would take money around here to bring the schools up to snuff physically

I apologize but this is still a sore point with me, but the schools where I live become a bunch of fucking ovens when it gets hot. The only places that have had AC in the past was the district headquarters and the offices at the schools. Any attempt to make it better for students was looked down upon by an arrogant school board who thought anything other than being stuffed into hot classrooms with extremely poor ventilation was pampering them. Then when it was cold these same offices were toasty warm but the students and teachers could go fuck themselves. They're finally working on rectifying that, but when it's really hot the classrooms have got to be conducive to learning and some sort of functional cooling system would have to be part of that.

[wordpix]

107. summer "vacation" was invented so kids were "free" to help on the farm

It was no vacation except to go to the swimming hole after working all day, or maybe take a ramble on a Sunday. As a teacher, I know firsthand there are many kids who need school in summer. Not all, but MANY.

And let's face it: most kids are not cutting and baling hay these days, right?

I support Obama on this.

[Frank Booth]

115. In general I've a bit disappointed with the Obama presidency so far, but I have to give him

credit on education. It seems like he's not afraid to institute some badly needed reforms in the public school system.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

116. kids are stressed here

no recess in secondary school (at least around here). Sitting hour after hour filling in worksheets. A different way of teaching should established that is FUN. In my day we had gym every day, had 15 minutes break in moring and afternoon and generally had more fun at school.

Add more hours during the day rather summer vacation where they can do more fun things at school.

[Old Hob]

119. I've been suggesting that for years.

Looking at our educational priorities, it's little surprise that we're in the shape we're in. I'd say our kids are being trained to work on the plantation.

[Ter]

121. I personally think school is too early and long enough as it is

Just my opinion though. :)

[happyslug]

123. "Our school calendar is based upon the agrarian economy"??? Not for at least the last 100 years

The US has had more people living in Urban areas then Rural Areas since before 1920 (The 1920 Census was the first Census that showed more people in Urban Areas then Rural Areas, thus the switched occurred sometime in the 1910s). While Farmers wanted their children to work in the fields during harvest, that could be done after school when schools were local (as most were) so the vast majority of farmers did NOT oppose the extension of the school year from sometime after November 1 to September 1 that occurred in the late 1800s.

The same change in education calendar occurred in the spring, i.e. extension of the school year to after June 1st could be worked around during the spring planting season. When did the farms need the most workers, Spring and fall, when did the School year extend to cover these periods? By 1900 when the US was still mostly small farmers. My point is simple, the agrarian community did NOT oppose the extension of the School year. Who did? the Business community for one primary reason, you need about three months to move.

The US is the most mobile population in the world. In Germany it took the Allied Bombing of German Cities to get people to leave their old neighborhoods to the new Suburbs, the Germans refused to leave their friends and families for better job opportunism until the bombing become excessive (Yes, the Allied Bombing of Germany during WWII, when studied after the war, benefited Germany, by getting people to move, more then it harmed Germany by the actual bombing). This showed up in the that part of Germany that used to be East Germany, the women have moved on i.e. to new husbands in the more prosperous Former West Germany, but the men at still in their old home areas dispute the high unemployment of those areas. It is hard to get Europeans to move across town let alone across the Country. Another example from Germany, when Germany re-united and Berlin became the Capital the Germany Government had to pay for daily plane rides for its bureaucrats to fly from Bonn (The Former West German Capital) to Berlin. Why? The Bureaucrats refused to move, they would travel but NOT move themselves or their families.

I bring this up for Americans think nothing of moving across the country to take a job. Europeans do NOT do that. It is to facilitate this level of movement that the three month summer vacation became the norm. NOT the requirements of farming (Which is more labor intensive in the Spring and Fall then in the Summer) but the need to provide TIME TO MOVE FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOVING. Schools give out and start at different times (some end at early as May, other Start as early as the beginning of August, other end the middle of June and still others do not start till after Labor Day). The reflect that it is families with children who are the mostly likely to move and the children's education is a huge factor in such a move. Between selling your old home, finding a new one, moving your property from one area to another, getting the kids into their new School, while both the husband and wife are working at their new job (And today, with both spouses working, the other spouse having to find a new job) you need the three months to move. Thus summer vacation, since at least 1900, has been more to permit people to move from one urban area to another, then anything to do with farming and for that reason will not change.

Europe, because most people do NOT move (Even within the city their live in) can have a shorter School year (Also reflects that most of Europe, even today, if you are an adult male, you spend 30 days in military service during the summer, thus a person who is on military duty prefer his child is in school, one less thing to worry about while on duty).

[Arcana]

128. Wow, good point. when I was in grade school my family moved quite a bit as well.

I recently moved from California to Arizona, if I had been in high school this would have had to been postponed few months. And it's important nowadays for families that must move due to job opportunities.

[happyslug]

139. People forget that in Farming Societies, Summer and Winters are "free time"

The time periods when you need the most workers and do the most work is during the Spring Planting and Fall harvesting. Planting occurs BEFORE the end of most school years, and Harvesting is generally AFTER the start of the School year. Thus farming has NOT been a factor in the School year since while before 1900 when the present school year was adopted.

In fact in pre-1900 era, most wars occurred during the summer for that is when the land was passable (i.e. no winter mud and snow) AND people were NOT required to be home to either plant or harvest the crop. The same today, it is during the summer when society is geared for the movement of people. If you move any other time of the year, it is more complex, not only including the education of your children but working around bad weather (i.e. increase rain during the rest of the year, slows down people moving, people tend to wait for the rain to stop before working out of doors).

Thus, once you look at why summer is the time out of school, it makes no sense in most farming societies (Some societies, depending on the crop, would benefit from being off school during the summer, but most farming communities the time when workers are needed is the spring and fall NOT summer).

[Art_from_Ark]

157. Summer and winter weren't "free time" on my grandfather's boyhood farm

There were plenty of chores to do year-round, including milking cows, shoeing horses, maintaining farm equipment, and mending/installing fences, among other things. Summer was the time for baling hay and weeding on top of that. Many of the farms west of the Mississippi (like my grandfather's) were 160-acre homesteads so there was always something to do. That's one reason why farm families of that time (late 1800s-early 1900s) were so large-- lots of kids meant lots of free labor.

[happyslug]

158. But that was done during the Spring and Fall in addition to Summer

As to my use of the term "Free Time" that was to reflect the concept that there was less work to be done on the farm during the Summer then during the Fall and spring. Even Daniel Boone would return home in the Spring to help his wife with the planting and again in the Fall to help her with the Harvest. The rest of the Summer he went on long hunting trips, trips not tied in with actual farm work. Was work done on the farm during the Summer? yes, but it was easier for people to leave their farms during the summer for work elsewhere then during the rest of the year.

This is what I meant by "Free time" "Free Time" in that if work was available elsewhere your labor could be spared on your own farm between these two seasons. Thus you were "Free" to do these other jobs. This was true in ancient times, when countries went to war it was during this what I call "Free Time" and that remain true in farming societies to this day (The Taliban are presently in retreat, it is the time for them to harvest their wheat crop so they all went home to complete the harvest). It is during the height of Summer when men can leave their farms and do other work, but they must return to their crops by the harvest. Yes, I admit using the term "Free Time" can be confusing, but I meant the term in a very narrow sense, not in the sense someone had 100% free time on his hands, but if he or she had any other job that had to be done, summer was the time to get it done.

My point was farming required work even during the school year. The largest amount of work was during spring planting and fall harvesting. The expansion of the school year to be from Labor day to Memorial day was done while before 1900. Thus during the time period of the most work on the farm, the children still had to go to school. No one said the children had no work to do during the summer, but my point was that work did NOT stop the expansion of the school year.

Now some kids dropped out of school to do farm work year round (My father had to do so in the 1930s, he only completed the 8th grade for that reason) but he had brothers and sisters who continued to go to school through high school (My father was the Youngest of his family, which broke up in the mid 1930s do to pressure of the Great Depression and thus he had to find work, his older siblings all had gone further then he did in school). But this was even more true of people working in the Cities, they had to quit school to find employment to support their families (It was NOT till 1947 that the Department of Labor changed its statistics on unemployment from everyone over age 14 to the present base of everyone over age 17).

My point was NOT there was no work to be done on the farm, but such work did NOT stop the expansion of the School year. What stopped the expansion of the School year once it hit Labor Day through Memorial day was the need for most people to need three months to move their families if and when they had to move. Remember the main income earner had to work during that time period, the children being out of school permitted the main income earner to only have to work around his work schedule during the time of the move. Yes, people can move in less time but what was needed was not only the actual move but arranging the move, finding new Housing, cleaning up (if renting) or selling the old housing. All of that takes time and that time was provided (and Continue to be provided) by children NOT having to go to school in the Summer.

[Art_from_Ark]

160. I think you'll find that weeding an 80-acre cornfield is a full-time summer job

especially during an era when there was no "Round-up". And baling hay with rudimentary implements on another 40 acres was also a monumental task. My grandfather would tell me horror stories of his summer days on the farm. No lounging around for him-- he so looked forward to going back to school in the fall, just to get away from all the chores. And to add insult to injury, just as he was about to enter his senior year, his father yanked him out of school to work for a whole damn year on the farm. That ticked off my grandfather so much, he never went back to the farm once he graduated from high school.

[happyslug]

162. But the big time was the Harvest and that was AFTER the start of the School year

And that sounds like why your great grand father took your Grand father out of school one year. The crop had to be in and your Great Grandfather needed the labor and that is September and October. By the time the crop was in it probably was late October and that was to late to enter his senior year (I can just image truing to catch up on 6-8 weeks of school work, that is impossible so your grandfather had to sit out the year).

Actually it shows my point, when your grandfather labor was needed for the Harvest, he had to quit school for a year. By the time the crop was in, it was to late for him to start school. Thus his failure to go to school that year had NOTHING to do with the School Calendar being set to help farmers, but that the School calendar was NOT set to help the farmer (Lets remember what topic we are discussing).

Given your statement as to hoeing, I suspect your Grandfather came of age in the 1930s (The three point hitch was invented in 1939, but did not become popular till after 1945 and it permitted tractors to do a lot of what previously had been done by hand or by horse when it came to hoeing weeds once the crop was in the grown). The Three Point Hitch and herbicide (Not so much round-up which tends to be a universal killer, but Amino 3-4-5 which tends to kill only broad left weeds) lead to hoeing slowly dieing out starting in the late 1940s, but again my point is NOT that work did not exist, but the big demand for labor was AFTER school had started and thus today's school calendar does not reflect the need of the farmer but the need of business to have a truly mobile work force.

[Art_from_Ark]

163. Actually, that is only half true

During the harvest time, EVERYONE was out in the fields, boys and girls alike. The summer jobs of hoeing and baling hay were usually reserved for the boys. My grandfather was taken out of school to work the whole damn year on the farm, because he would have turned 18 before his senior year ended, and he would have left in a heartbeat anyway once he got his diploma. Great-Granddad figured (rightfully so) that my grandfather wanted that high school diploma so bad, he would stick around until he got it. Also, my grandfather had several older siblings who had left the farm by then (his oldest sibling was 20 years older than he!), and Great-Granddad, fearing the exodus of his now-dwindling free labor force, kept my grandfather back for one whole year, working for one whole year, doing jobs that had previously been done by recently-emancipated siblings.

[MountainMama]

170. Instead of 1930, how about from about 30 years ago?

I can speak to being needed on the farm. I grew up on a cattle farm in West Virginia and I didn't have any brothers or boy cousins. Summer was prime time.

In West Virginia, school can't extend past June 8. That was about the time the garden started coming up and it needed weeded and hoed. We also had a "potato patch" which required even more work.

Mid-June, the hay would be ready and my dad couldn't afford the big new round balers. We baled square bales, around 50 lbs. each. They had to be stacked and loaded on the truck and unloaded and stacked in the sheds.

The chickens had to be tended to as well. Mom would get them in the spring and when school was out, they were grown enough to be let out. I had to gather eggs and feed chickens every evening.

Vegetables started being harvested in mid to late July. I had to pick and clean and help can.

We were needed. My dad was angry when I started band in 7th grade because I wouldn't be around to help as much. I, too, looked forward to school starting. If school had been year round I would have been ecstatic.

[happyslug]

141. I also had to move Twice while I was going to School

Now that was over 40 years ago, but the problems remain. I had to move in first grade, ended up finishing school in another school district and repeating that grade for the school did not get my school records in time (and this was just a move within the same state, I just crossed a county line). The second time I moved was between 9th and 10th grade. I made the mistake of trying to continue my German Studies in the new school but I was clearly out of my depth (The new school concentrated more on speaking then writing German and when it came to actually speaking German I was hopelessly lost, so I transferred to Latin, did well considering I had missed the first part of Latin, the dates, times etc. which I had to learn on my own and because I was starting a month after the rest of the class I never did learn but survived enough to get As).

Just a point, it took my parents almost a month to find a new place to live, AFTER the house I was living in was condemned, took another month for my family to move and all I heard from my old school district was a warning to register in the new school district. Now I was in High School and new what classes I wanted to take and took them, my younger sisters were still in grade school and later where told that their old school never did send the new school their records for about six months into the school year. Now that was 40 years ago, but it still takes time for school districts to gather information on students and to forward that information to whatever new school the student goes to. Furthermore the old School will NOT forward the information till their know the new school name and address (And often you can not get that till the school is open, thus an inherent delay that will NOT change until you have ALL schools on the same schedule which is almost impossible to do).

People forget the end of the School year means not only that school ends, but also the point most classes are geared to be the end of the class. During the rest of the year various teachers go through the material are various paces and thus it is easier to start at the beginning of a class then half way through it. If you want to end summer vacation and permit year round class you then have to define, on a national level, what is to be taught when. If you do not it will be impossible for anyone who changes schools to change school and NOT lose a year (i.e. fail).

My point is most people who propose year round schooling tend to be people who have NEVER had to deal with students who had to move during a school year. Those that have, understand why summer vacation exists and why it has survived over 100 years of attempts to adjust around it. In many ways I am surprised that the military have not registered their objections for they move even more then the average worker, most people in the military wait till the Summer after their transfer to move their children for the above reasons. To move during the school year is much more complex then during the summer, and it is for this reason summer vacation exists, nothing to do with farming.

[mvd]

126. Haven't agreed about many of his education ideas, but..

I think it's a good idea to have year-round school. I remember I forgot a lot over the summer, and they would review a lot at the beginning of the school year. Just make the summer vacation into shorter vacations spread around the year.

[Arcana]

129. Studies show that year round school doesn't work, however there are kinks in the demographics

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070811151449.htm

Just because Obama proposes this does not mean we have to be like sheep and nod at everything he says.

But rather than one learning gap in summer, there are many learning gaps. One thing to consider about the Asian school system is that Asians pride more education than Americans and thus you're less likely to see learning gaps anyway. I grew up in a predominantly Asian area and many kids when to supplemental education programs like Kumon all year around.

It has only been a few years since I've graduated from High School, my mind is still fresh of the memories of exhaustion. But Rather than pouring money into quantity, we should see if quality works, because that is what the school system is lacking.

[mvd]

132. That's not the only study; others show different results

http://www.nayre.org/Summer%20Learning%20Gap.pdf

[Arcana]

134. Are you suggesting that school be year long with NO gaps?

Then childhood has ended and so have summer jobs for teens, which are important for gaining work experience that so many employers and even colleges demand.

[mvd]

137. I agree there should be some gaps

Our childen would be overtired otherwise.

[Owl]

146. Exactly right.

[bitchkitty]

131. Good! n/t

[timo]

135. How about

How about slashing foreihn aid to the freaking bone and using that money to revamp our school system and set up a two track system, not all these kids are going to go to college, lets improove the country from the ground up!!

[apnu]

136. I've always liked the tri-mester system used in Europe

3 months on, one month off all year round makes sense to me. Kids and teachers get downtime, but not so much that the kids forget everything after being off for 2-3 months between fall-winter-spring cram sessions. Plus, kids would still get the same amount of time off they get now, its just spread out more.

When I was in school each semester seemed like it went on for eternity, then came the long summer where I pretty much forgot everything, and back to school for another round of torture.

[Arcana]

138. Sounds good

And there are less gaps than in Year round systems in the US.

[Owl]

147. Many kids need summer jobs to save for college. A month here and there ain't gonna cut it.

[Xenotime]

143. The only way this could backfire is if new voters express themselves at the polls.

[donco6]

145. Our teachers are already on 8 hour days.

The only way to add time to the school day would be to hire way more staff and then offset their schedules - essentially handing off the kids to another teacher during the day. How is that good?

[JeanGrey]

148. This sucks. Kids are already cheated out of their summer

vacation in Georgia, being forced to return to school sometimes the second week of August!! School shouldn't start until after Labor Day. It worked that way for us for years and we had no problems.

[high density]

149. More school to learn what?

We need to stop offshoring first.

[DeadEyeDyck]

151. I think my kid sister

just became a republican

[rayofreason]

155. Not a smart move.

Seat time does not translate into learning, and this will be popular with....(crickets)

[gorbal]

173. Obama went to a nice school.

I imagine if he was stuck in a dark classroom with the shades pulled down he would feel differently. I thought it was cruel enough that kids are stuck inside all day : but to have them there LONGER?