Jail for parents who allowed daughter to die

[panzerfaust]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald (Oz)

A couple who failed to seek medical treatment for their baby daughter, who was severely ill with eczema before an infection killed her, wept in the dock today as they were jailed for her manslaughter.

Thomas Sam, 42, and his wife Manju, 37, were convicted in the NSW Supreme Court over the death of nine-month-old Gloria, with a jury accepting they were guilty of criminal negligence.

Sentencing Thomas Sam to a minimum of six years in jail and Manju Sam to at least four, Justice Peter Johnson said Gloria was subjected to significant pain over an extended period and her parents' failure to seek proper help for her amounted to cruelty.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/jail-for-parents-who-allowed-daughter-to-die-20090928-g8x2.html

---

They were wrong in what they did, but so is putting them in jail for so long ...

[notadmblnd]

1. why do you think it is wrong?

BTW, I don't think it's wrong to jail them for such a short amount of time.

[Warpy]

2. Exactly, it would be nice to keep them from having more kids to torture

As it is, they'll probably be out with time off for good behavior within two years.

The only thing that would get through to religious wack jobs like this is having the pain happen to them instead of to their kids.

[Robb]

3. +1, but I am not proud to agree. nt

[Leontius]

10. Exactly what part of the story gives you the

impression this couple are "religious wack jobs"?

[enki23]

14. True. It was "alternative medicine" whackjobs, in this case.

The father is a fucking homeopath who killed his daughter through massive, horrifying neglect by treating her only with with water and/or alcohol rather than getting her actual medical care. In a sense, I suppose one could say he's a victim too, since he seemed to actually believe in the efficacy of his own scam. Much like the religious whackjobs who thought they could cure diabetes with prayer alone, while their little girl died a horrifying death.

But the fact is, they allowed their daughter to die rather than even *try* to accept that homeopathy just might be asinine horseshit. At least, not until it was too late.

[Posteritatis]

34. Alt-medicine wackjobs are functionally identical. (nt)

[tularetom]

4. It isn't even the fact that she ultimately died

Babies die all the time from all sorts of maladies.

The problem is they knew she was in agony and they simply let her suffer.

The fact that they ignored her suffering out of sheer stupidity rather than some goofy religious belief doesn't mitigate the seriousness of their actions at all.

At least they won't be conceiving anymore children for the time they are spending in prison.

[secondwind]

5. I think there is a culture gap here also, in other countries, they "accept" misfortune without a

fight, I think that they REALLY didn't want her to die, but it reflects the way they (the parents) were raised also.

[crim son]

7. I find myself wondering if the outcome would have been different

if the baby had been male. I could be WAY off-base here, so don't jump on my ass. Just wondering.

[pitohui]

16. no, it does NOT reflect anything about culture or how THEY were raised

it reflects one thing and one thing only -- the fact that the baby had a disfiguring skin disease -- which short circuits all the normal love and affection that post-pregnancy hormones etc. cause parents to feel for their baby -- how do i know this? believe me, i've been there...

i don't feel like rehashing my tragic tale of woe but there's something that happens to parents when they have a child that has a disease that makes the child's skin flake off and makes the child constantly scream in pain/irritation -- i see now the difference between the way i was treated and the way the other kids/grandchildren were treated and it's just night and day -- if i had not been ill in such an unfortunate disfiguring way i doubt that i would have ever been subjected to the harsh physical abuse i received -- NONE of the other kids were abused and i doubt the younger kids would even believe the extent of what i experienced, they would just assume it would not be possible for such nice people to beat a baby or small child so harshly

it's got nothing to do w. "culture," our culture is just as visual if not more visual in its orientation than india, and an american parents, or an australian parent, would have been just as messed up to find out that THEIR baby had a horrible ugly skin disease

it's got nothing to do w. how their parents raised them, i'm sure their parents raised them to go to the fucking doctor just fine, since when the wife got sick, she immediately did go to the fucking doctor

we like to pretend that all babies are lovable, but a baby whose skin is flaking off, a baby covered w. oozing sores ain't lovable, and so i wasn't loved, and so this child wasn't loved, and that's just the way it is -- how many of us are willing to get out there and love babies whose skins are flaking off? too few of us to count, i assure you -- most of us just don't get put to the test so we are free to pat ourselves on the back and think we're so superior

i'm not excusing these parents, they could have freaked out and gone doctor shopping a lot (as my parents did) and even if the doctor shopping didn't work, they could have at least covered their own ass -- just be aware that some of this unexplained skin disease is quite untractable, i was never "cured" by any treatment, i finally just grew out of it at puberty, if i had not grown out of it, my life would not have been worth the living and death would have been the better thing for me, i think about it often, trust me!

but at the end of the day they're going to jail because they had bad luck and the baby died, nobody was putting them in jail because the homeopathy didn't work as long as the baby was alive (even tho people noticed and gossiped about the baby's skin and wondered if the baby had been burned) -- i remember overhearing such gossip, i also remember that not once did anyone step forward to help me, not that there was any help or cure for the skin issue ( we couldn't even seem to get a diagnosis) but maybe someone could have stopped some of the beatings i received for having it, you know?

they're bad people, sure, but WE also have a bad society -- to put it on THEIR culture is nonsense, i can assure you from harsh experience that our culture does no better

ok sorry for the rant

[WriteDown]

18. Short circuits hormones?

Then how do you explain this?



edited to fix link.

[northernlights]

21. I'm so sorry for what you suffered

And you are quite right. Studies have shown that parents treat their "ugly" children much worse than the "pretty" ones. And you're right that nobody comes to our rescue. How fortunate you outgrew your illness.

My parents turned against me once I hit puberty and got acne. Once my sisters were out of the house, they started going away for weekends and leaving me locked out in the street. My father did apologize to me once, when I was 16. He said, "I'm sorry. It's my fault your face is so ugly. You got your acne from me," and walked away shking his head about how "nobody's ever gonna marry Mary, she's so ugly. Nobody's ever gonna marry her."

Unfortunately, the trend continues throughout life. Studies have also shown that "ugly" adults also get fewer opportunities, lower pay, worse service, and so on.

[WriteDown]

23. I've always thought there should be affirmative action...

for those who are not quite as good looking for their peers. Its something that has gone unaddressed for many years. I am just not sure how you would implement it.

[pitohui]

28. yeah, there's really nothing to be done about "lookism"

if you're disfigured you are not ever going to be treated the same, there's no getting around it -- same as if you're short, you're not going to have the same opportunities, you're not gonna get paid the same, all you can do is do your best and not hate yourself for not being the rich kid on the block because it ain't ever gonna happen

there's no "addressing" it, our society gets more visual and looks-obsessed over time, not less so -- and more and more the pretty girl who can be the "face" of a product gets all the marbles, an actor's name is put on a line of clothing and or a perfume for a significant cut of the profit and the person who actually did all the work can go hide in the broom closet somewhere...

we just have to develop better technology so that people's looks can be fixed, if possible, to give them the same chance as their peers

the treatment of skin disease has actually progressed to a surprising amt over the years, people do overall have a chance of better skin than they did "back in the day"

society is not going to become more fair or more kind in our lifetime, all i can suggest to people is if you choose to have kids (i didn't, i wouldn't risk passing this on) you get them every treatment and every opportunity to take care of their physical body and appearance -- just as you would not spare any money on educating their mind -- BOTH are important to long term success

[WriteDown]

29. Perhaps a "Gattaca" scenario would actually be a good thing...

People who are not as good looking could be eliminated in the womb. May bring more equality.

[Tikki]

36. This is a very sad reality........

So sorry this was your reality...
I worked with many special toddlers...and you could read some of their parents like a book.

I would say more were loving and supportive...but, you are correct, some just aren't going
to let go of the fear.


Tikki

[grantcart]

27. the facts show this not to be the case. The father was a homeopathic practioner

and treated the child himself despite repeated warnings that he was killing the child.

[pitohui]

30. the facts show they knew where the hospital was just fine, mom got treated there

even if you argue the father was sincere, you can't argue that the mom believed in homeopathy, she wasted no time in getting to hospital when she had an issue

[grantcart]

31. I agree I was arguing that it wasn't a "cultural issue"

[crim son]

6. My first impulse was sympathy for the parents but after reading the story

I've changed my mind. The child's hair turned from black to white! I understand that many people don't know that untreated excema can lead to systemic infection but... oozing sores and haircolor changes? Pure cruelty and indifference. It mightn't be fair to say, but the look on the father's face reveals something of the "arrogance" the article refers to.

Poor little muffin.

[Arkansas Granny]

8. Here is another article which gives more details. If this is true, I don't think

their sentence was long enough.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/parents-put-social-life-above-babys-ill-health-court-told-20090505-atd7.html

[WriteDown]

9. This is how UHC should be as well..

MANDATORY check-ups. Preventative health has to be at the forefront of our system. Fees and even jail-time should be levied against those who refuse to take care of themselves and others.

[Brickbat]

11. "So long?" What would you think is an acceptable sentence for parents who watched their daughter's

hair turn from black to white and her whole tiny body weep with open painful sores?

[kirby]

12. Sounds like some DUers...

"an arrogant approach to what he perceived to be the superior benefits of homeopathy compared with conventional medicine".

[WriteDown]

13. This is a good policy for the anti-vaxers too. nt

[grahamhgreen]

15. Now, can we put the legislators who deny us Medicare for All in jail? In Australia everyone Medicare

[area51]

17. Wow.

It blows my mind that someone in a first-world country with a legal right to healthcare would do this. Mofos.

[Alcibiades]

19. This could never happen in America

The conviction, that is. After all, if health care is just something you consume and not a right, it's unreasonable to force people to go to the doctor, especially if they cannot afford it.

[Deep13]

20. How could this not be neglect?

They let her die when they could have saved her.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

22. A couple here has done this to two of their children.

This couple had a lot of money so that wasn't an issue. They just chose to let religion kill two of their children when both deaths were very preventable. This is just my opinion, but this has to be manslaughter at the very least. At least they did jail time the second time.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,137615,00.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general311.html

[Altoid_Cyclist]

26. FWIW I forgot to add the final verdict.

This almost made it the whole way to the SCOTUS.

http://www.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010501nixon6.asp

[dugaresa]

24. I read the collection of articles and it appears as if the parents were negligent

and I get a distinct feeling they were hoping for the outcome they got, the death of their child.

Homeopathy was okay for the baby, but yet the mother during the same time received conventional medical care?
They were busying themselves with a family wedding?

I am sorry, these folks acted callously and I can't help but wonder if it was because this child was both female and had a disfiguring condition that made her even less valuable in their eyes.

[JonQ]

25. You know I have no problem with people trying alternative medicines on themselves

but when your child is sick use real medicine, not witchdoctors.

Let them get old enough to decide whether they want to put their faith in science (and live) or pseudoscience/religion (and probably die).

[bowens43]

32. I think the sentance is far too short....... nt

[GoneOffShore]

33. Why is it wrong to put them in jail so long?

They neglected her and caused her hideous pain.

And relied on woo to cure her eczema.

[Blue_Tires]

35. very sad...

of course when the wife had health issues they went straight to a conventional doctor?? i don't understand the mental disconnect...