Muslim scholar: France should not ban burqas

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: ap


Muslim scholar Tariq Ramadan acknowledged Wednesday that women can be forced to wear head-to-toe Islamic garments such as burqas, but he insisted France should not ban them.


The often provocative Geneva-born university professor told a French parliamentary commission looking into the body-length garments that it is examining a "scarecrow" issue that masks broader troubles of integration among Muslims in France.

The National Assembly panel is studying a marginal but growing trend of wearing full face-and-body veils, such as the burqa and niqab, open only at slits for the eyes. It has been conducting hearings intermittently since September.

"This is a society that has doubts about itself. For me, this commission is born of a real self-doubt, and suddenly they're looking at one element, at the most extreme slice," Ramadan said. "The problem won't be solved like that."

"Clearly, there are men who put pressure on women — not just men, but the social context and social ghettoization" that leads some women to wear the full-body garb, Ramadan said. "But a law (to ban it) is the wrong solution."




Read more: http://www.newsok.com/muslim-scholar-france-should-not-ban-burqas/article/feed/112969

[Jkid]

1. Muslim women should not be forced to wear a burka in a western country

If a woman chooses to, at her own free will, we should respect that.

[Imajika]

2. Agreed, but...

..the problem is trying to determine if women are wearing this stuff on their own free will.

A woman who feels compelled to wear a burqa from family/societal pressures, is often unlikely to then complain that she really doesn't want to wear the burqa.

So long as it can be legally worn, it is just very difficult to do determine who is wearing it on their own free will and who isn't.

I think right now I oppose the burqa ban, but I can see both sides of the debate and am open to be persuaded either way.

[reggie the dog]

14. this is the problem

In Chicago I can wear a ski mask in public, in the winter mind you, and it is legal, even with our problems with violence. So I do not object to a woaman covering her face in public, but I am just as uncomfortable by someone wearing a ski mask in Chicago or a burka here in Draguignan because in the back of my mind I think that if they are hiding their face they may be up to some shit like robbing or something. What I do oppose legally is that some Muslim women want their ID pictures and drivers permit pictures to be taken with their burqa on, which defeats the purpose of ID pictures. At that point if the woman have that right I want the right to wear a mask in my ID photos too. I would say not to ban burqas because a small percentage of women actually want to wear them, the women being "forced" to wear them by their husbands are adults and can easily apply for divorce in France, liberate themselves, move out, and make their own household.

[Wizard777]

3. Great! Now what do the French Scholars have to say about it?

:blush:

[nonationbuilding]

4. French scholar: Saudi Arabia should not ban mini skirts

or breasts

[Froward69]

12. The republicans would

have a problem with that...

On edit// welcome to DU.

[reggie the dog]

15. you miss the point

Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship. People do not have human rights there and women have little or no rights at all. France on the other hand is a republic with constitutional rights much like those in the USA, where women have equal rights. We in France should not ban clothing because shitty dictatorships ban mini skirts and do not let women drive cars.

[pennylane100]

23. I think that people who advocate allowing burqas

should also be forced to wear them.

[reggie the dog]

24. if my wife tried to force me to wear a burqa I would divorce her

like any of these women in France can divorce their men. Plus a very small percentage of women who wear them actually want to and why should we ban them from doing what they want? I would never support a law forcing women to wear these things and if the women really do not want to they can just divorce their husband.

[AlphaCentauri]

28. The problem is that those women may have been indoctrinated

against their freedom, they have never have the option of wearing miniskirts or bikinis because they have been toll not to do it

[clear eye]

37. We all have our own cultures that influence our decisions.

Why do you call the cultural beliefs of some Muslim women "indocrination", but not your own?

On edit: If you would never wear bikinis or mini-skirts b/c you feel your legs don't live up to societal ideals, is that "indoctrination"? Should there be a law to force you to wear them, to help you overcome your "indoctrination"?

[AlphaCentauri]

42. How would I know if a woman in a burqa wants to use a bikini?

if her culture prevent her from expressing her feeling to me
how would I know if she is making that decision alone when I know somebody else is watching what she does?

[Violet_Crumble]

72. That's not what clear eye asked you...

They (assuming you were female) asked you if you never wear a bikini because you feel yr legs don't live up to societal standards, isn't that indoctrination? I couldn't think of anything worse than being legally forced to wear clothes that I believe are too revealing or make me uncomfortable. I had a friend who was in an abusive and controlling relationship and her partner used to force her to wear long shirts and jeans to cover up the bruises, but I didn't see anyone suggesting or supporting a ban on long sleeved shirts and jeans for women, because that's not how to address the abuse....

[No Elephants]

54. Do you think women who wear burqas can really divorce their husbands as easily as you

can divorce your wife?

What career training or job experience have they had? Many would be lucky if they were even literate in Afghani, let alone in French.

Where would they stay on evening # 1, 2 and 3?

What rights would they have to visit their children over the age of 7?

And that is if no one kills them.

[reggie the dog]

61. the women go to school if they are born in France

[No Elephants]

67. Why assume they are all born in France? Besides, lack of schooling is only one of the issues

that bears on employment and on ability to divorce a husband at will.

[edwardian]

26. "allowing burqas"

is not the same as mandating them. Sheesh.

[No Elephants]

53. See Reply # 2.

[winyanstaz]

5. The hell with that....women should not be FORCED to wear them or not.

You men and you governments and you religious assholes need to back the HELL off and leave women's bodies alone.
Stop making laws about us..clean up your own damned act. You have no right to tell women anything.
I am SICK to death of men forcing women to do this that or another thing.
You frikkin hypocrites need to stop your OWN sinning and mind your OWN business.
Women..you need to speak out and help your mothers and sisters and put an end this insanity...if not for yourself or your mother and sisters...do it for your children and the unborn yet to get here.
The war on women needs to end now.

[nyy1998]

6. Um, we're on your side

But I was watching the Anthony Bourdain No Reservations episode on Saudi Arabia the other day, and his guide, an American-raised(and educated) Saudi woman said that the women wear the full suit to protect themselves from the men(not the vice versa as commonly known). It was interesting viewpoint, and I would like to hear some more Muslim woman scholars on this issue.

[winyanstaz]

9. I am sure she is correct in that women not covered are attacked.

and sorry if I was too angry..but I am so sick of women being told what to do.

[reggie the dog]

16. Sorry, but here in France it is illegal, immoral, and against our

republic to attack women for what they wear. Any many that tries that will find his ass in jail quickly.

[No Elephants]

55. Sorry, but you have a law banning burqas. That is criminalizing what a woman wears.

Besides, do you think the beatings will take place in public?

[reggie the dog]

62. there is no law banning burqas

just a discussion aboout whether or not there should be a law, which I think there should not be.

[winyanstaz]

75. thank you for posting that..it is good to know. :)

[clear eye]

39. I think your anger is understandable given the inexplicable target of the law.

If a law is made to prevent men from coercing woman in this way, why does it penalize the women and not the men?

[No Elephants]

56. Bingo! If the sight of a strand of hair or an eyebrow turns them into rapists, let them wear

blinders.

[No Elephants]

52. In France, women have other protections against men.

BTW, I don't believe Bourdain's guide for 5 minutes.

The idea that showing even a single bit of hair or face will drive a man so wild he will be literally unable to control himself is utter nonsense, as men in Western nations have shown. Arab women are not idiots. They know what time it is.

[from outer space]

7. fashion/ oppression/ xenophobia/ abuse - can this issue ever be simple?

Ahh, up here in Canada, we're almost at ski season, where balaclavas are not just for robbing convenience stores. Rest assured that, when it's -20Celsius, no one is debating headgear, or facegear. Then you have the right to bundle up as you please. So the debate is not about the right to wear whatever.
In Canada, there are numerous charities running homes for battered women from all social strata and cultures, there are runaway teens fleeing domestic abuse and living in shelters or on the streets of large cities, there are women locked in apartments, forced into prostitution after they were lied to about coming here to get a good job. But dang it, there's no kind of abuse that gets primates as heated up as the possibility that every headscarf wearing woman is an in-your-face symbol of male dominance and oppression (except Mother Theresa. and the virgin Mary.)
In Canada, the majority of Muslim women do not, repeat, not wear the headscarf, only a moderate and extremely visible minority, the majority of which wear it because they are devoted to following the edicts of modesty and accept the phenomenon of widespread male visual arousal (which makes the porn industry a multi-billion dollar industry). The ones that cover their face are a teeny tiny minority that need to get their heads checked, because their is no basis for it, but if it makes them happy, who cares, as long as they're not robbing convenience stores? (Come to think of it, a facemask would be a great way to get temp GFs past the nosy neighbours - BUT I DIGRESS!)
The debate is about the people who are used to having things their way who are faced with the possibility that equal rights mean that they might sometimes not always get their way, versus, the people who chose to come to this country because it represents a wonderful human experiment which is leading to something far, far better than what they left behind.
Religion is a scapegoat, because the complainers put their energies into complaining, not understanding- that's too frickin' hard!!!

[No Elephants]

57. A burqa is not the same as a head scarf at all.

[clear eye]

8. So it's ILLEGAL for a woman to dress in accordance w/ her understanding of her religion?

Even though it harms on one?

Will the French next ban the yarmulke? or the sheytl?

Sorry, this is not liberation; this is bigotry.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

11. It's not bigotry

It's common sense. I don't mind the other forms of religious headgear such as the hijab. Although when it comes to public schools, I think they should be banned along with other forms of religious symbols (ie separation of church and state). I think France has done that.

Burqas are so restricting in sight it's more health and safety than "bigotry". Burqas have no place in Western Society.

[clear eye]

29. It's not about what you mind or don't mind. n/t

[FunkyLeprechaun]

88. Of course I mind

I am deaf and I lipread very well except in situations where the mouth is covered. If I provide a sort of customer service and I do in a Museum setting, is it unbecoming of me to have these views on these garments?

(BTW... I said I didn't mind the Hiqab, I can see their face. I think if it comes to publicly funded schools I don't think displays of religious symbols are appropriate.)

[clear eye]

78. In the mid 1990's the French Minister of Education

ordered the expulsion from schools of all female students who wore the hijab. The French government took no action against Roman Catholic students wearing a crucifix, Protestant students wearing a cross, Sikh male students wearing a turban, or Jewish male students wearing a yarmulke (skullcap).

There was nothing universal about separating church and state in its actions. Although many Muslim women believe that the hajib is a mandatory religious requirement, the French singled it out claiming that it is somehow evangelical, and all that other religious attire is not.

In this context I think the current proposal is less about the burqa and more about not wanting Muslims to feel at home in France or about the Catholic French majority not feeling forced to acknowledge the sizeable Muslim minority in France. To my mind it bears an ugly resemblance to the people who say, "I don't care if people are gay in private; I just don't want them to flaunt it in front of me."

In the U.S. there are lots of people who behave badly toward Muslims. Fortunately we haven't codified that attitude in order to put the power of the state behind it.

[clear eye]

82. I should add that since 2004, France universalized the ban on religious symbols,

but penalties for defiance are handled inequitably.

[riderinthestorm]

89. Polls however indicate that French female muslims support the ban overwhelmingly.

This seems to indicate to me that they realize that the garb should be a choice and not imposed in childhood during a child's school years. The hijab in the Quran is supposed to be worn by grown women only, and even then was stipulated as a requirement only for Aisha, the prophet's wife.

In western cultures, a mask on the face is perceived negatively. It is our culture and yet Muslims who feel WE should accomodate them are asking a lot imho.

Secondly, I've stood up for deaf people before with the burqa - they must see the face to lipread. I know they are a small population but the burqa is not necessary or required by the Islamic Quran. It is a cultural remnant of tribal societies and the oppression of women, and if a modern 21st century culture wants it to be banned, you won't find me standing in the way.

[reggie the dog]

17. the debate is about covering your face in public

in a country where only our ski resorts are ever cold enough that people need cover their face in public. It is illegal to cover your face during a protest for instance. The thing is that nearly 100% of the women who wear these things that cover their faces are forced to do so by their macho husbands and dads. So there is an element of fighting for womans rights in the ban. I am against the ban however because I think that the 1 in a hundred or so women who WANT to wear the mask should be able to.

[reggie the dog]

18. If you ban burqas, face veils

then it will be illegal for women to wear a veil on their wedding day, as per christian tradition. My wife did not wear a veil because I think it is a shit practice but a ban on veils is a ban on veils, so the cops will be busting up lots of catholic weddings here in France if ever a ban is put in place.

[AlphaCentauri]

31. There is a differences using burqas or Vails inside the church than in the street n/t

[dustbunnie]

34. Those veils you refer to that are worn during weddings are sheer. The person is recognizable.

Also, those are worn for a small period of time, generally within a closed space.

Apples to oranges. I'm quite certain that if men of a certain religion were mandated by the superior woman class to walk around in chastity belts and face-covered slave costumes the rest of you would be up in arms in no time. But since it's women who are being mandated to wear clothes that subjugate them, it's just A-okay.

Aside from the disgusting message it sends out concerning women's inferior place, (which ought to be deplored by every civilized human being) no one should be allowed into the public square wearing a full face covering that cannot be easily removed for id, unless weather conditions make it necessary, or groups have proper permits, like those required of people wearing animal costumes for promotional purposes.

[clear eye]

40. I doubt in your hypothetical they'd be calling for a law to punish THEM for the garb.

But they might want a law aimed at the women to protect the men from coercion.

[dustbunnie]

41. Oh I"m quite certain that the men in my hypothetical would be openly sneered at,

laughed at, and beaten up on the street. The jokes would be cutting and cruel. And yes, I have no doubt at ALL that non-fundie men would seek to have the subjugated males in my example hurled from the workplace, and then have their garb outlawed. No man would agree to be so debased or allow others to walk around in such a state... except those who choose it for sexual fetish, and they are basically barred from wearing their costumes in public as well.

[clear eye]

48. So you think those who dress in ways you don't approve of should be driven from the workplace?

Sounds like justifying mob rule to me. There's no way to dialog w/ that level of authoritarianism.

[dustbunnie]

50. People who refuse to approach others as equals have no place contributing to the workforce.

Burqas/niqabs do not allow for equal discourse or interaction, which is their whole purpose. To keep women OUT. Burqas are meant to be worn by women who are not allowed into the public arena anyway, so the idea of inserting them into it dressed in such a fashion is "huh????" worthy anyway.

The wearing of them reduce every interaction to a sexual encounter, which also has absolutely NO place in the workforce. The burqa serves as a message that the responsibility for sex lies solely with the woman. This is a sickening message that westerners have been fighting for decades. The idea that those who don't go around faceless and swaddled head to toe deserve rape is a disgusting, repulsive meme.

Finally, I've never, EVER seen a sex slave in leather mask and ball gag come into my place of business. They would be thrown out immediately. So spare me your fresh-faced outrage.

It's only authoritarian to protest in favor of repression and intolerance. And that's exactly what YOU'RE promoting.

[No Elephants]

60. I don't think it's that simple, on either side of the argument.

If you could be sure that a woman were making a totally free choice to wear a burqa, of course she should not be deprived of wearing what she wants to wear. Wearing what you have freely chosen to wear is not a subservient act. But being sure that she is making a totally free choice is not easy.

Are women wearing burqas to work a big probem in France?

[dustbunnie]

70. Men are not free to wear whatever they wish either.

We have certain sensibilities as a society, and one of them is that we not appear in public as faceless cyphers. There are all kinds of rules governing dress codes, so it's not some shocking precedent.

I see the banning of the burqa/niqab akin to the institution of hate laws here in the US. The laws are meant to protect vulnerable members of society. Acceptance of the burqa sends out a horrible message regarding the subjugation of women, which harms all other women outside their fundie world. If there were no issues with violence and rape against women it would be one thing. But we don't live in such a world. The other reason is to discourage fundies from coming to France... sounds practical and logical to me.

I have no idea whether burqas in the workplace are a problem in France. The poster responding to me made a drama out of it, while my point was a hypothetical referring to men. It has however, been an issue in the UK.

[No Elephants]

59. If there is a law banning burqas, who but the woman wearing a burqa gets punished?

[No Elephants]

58. Who banned face veils?

[clear eye]

30. Where did you get that figure?

I don't have numbers, but I have read articles by college-educated, devout, unmarried Muslim women who have made that choice for themselves based on their religious beliefs and cultural identity. One overlooked, but obvious question is, if the problem is w/ the behavior of the men in imposing a certain dress on women against their will, why are the women being targeted w/ criminal penalties?

[No Elephants]

63. Are you talking about unmarried Muslim women who cover their heads or about women who wear burqas?

The two are very different.

Also, if you religion and your culture and your family teach you that you are a slut and obnoxious to God and your fellow Muslims unless you cover your head, is covering your head really a free choice? I don't think a college education is any magic charm against all that. I know that my college education did not do away with my upbringing.

[clear eye]

80. The demands of your upbringing were not criminalized, sensible or not.

Enacting a law against something needs to pass muster in a way that, say, a company's workplace ban doesn't. Companies can make demands that the gov't can't, such as demanding that its employees work on what is the Sabbath for them. This is b/c the worker can decide not to take a job w/ that particular company to avoid violating his/her beliefs.

Yes, wearing a headscarf is very different from wearing a burqa. If I were in France I would encourage more westernized Muslim women to create some sort of support system to empower the wearers to shed burqas if they wished. But since, as you pointed out, the gov't can't be sure whether a woman who wears a burqa is being coerced or not (unless she complains to the authorities), modern human rights tradition would assert that the behavior shouldn't be legally banned. The gov't needs to have a demonstrable overriding interest in restricting autonomy--an interest that can't be reasonably met in a less restrictive way. Ending male coercion is such an interest, but they can't just punish women whom they suspect as being coerced as a way of achieving that end. They will inevitably be impinging on the rights of some of these women, and unfairly putting the penalties on the rest who are victims.

[riderinthestorm]

90. Sorry but some "demands" of religion need to be criminalized.

There is a hadith from the Prophet Muhammed that stipulates that FGM is permissible if its "not too severe". What does that mean? Ultimately it means Muhammed condones FGM.

Sorry but that's fucked up.

You can argue all you want that burqas aren't FGM but how about I offer up that they are inherently unsafe articles of clothing. As a rape crisis advocate, I can tell you that billowy garment is a predators dream. Lots of cloth to grab onto, obscured vision, minimal ability to run or kick their assailant....

Modern human rights tradition DOES argue that religious behavior CAN and SHOULD be banned when it is detrimental to the rights of the oppressed.

I know you want to walk that fine gray line but sometimes that's just not possible.

[EFerrari]

21. Allowing women the freedom of movement is not bigotry.

[clear eye]

27. Criminalizing something is not "allowing" anything. n/t

[EFerrari]

49. In this case it sure is. It protects women in an abusive

male dominated subculture.

[No Elephants]

64. "Allowing" women anything is not bigotry. Mandating, however, is another story.

Laws banning burqas are a mandate.

I am not saying such laws are correct or not, but I think people in power need to stop telling women what they should, can, must or cannot wear.

[EFerrari]

76. Burqas, foot binding, there are cultural practices that are abusive

and I have no problem with the government intervening in those cases.

[No Elephants]

69. Men wear yarmulkes. Governments don't presume to tell men what to wear.,

[Posteritatis]

85. That's exactly what it is, yep. (nt)

[FunkyLeprechaun]

96. I know a Muslim family whose

parents live in Saudi Arabia, for the time being (the father's job is there). They are originally from Aleppo, Syria.

Whenever they come to the US, the mother sheds her veil and wears western clothes with aplomb! They have three daughters and one son (my sister is engaged to him). The children all moved to the US and became American citizens and now refuse to go back there to live there, not even to Syria, because of the treatment of women. The girls hate the veils because they feel it's too restricting. They are still practicing Muslims, abstaining from pork and Alcohol sometimes (the son has pork and alcohol when he goes out with us), observe Eid and Ramadan etc.

Back to Saudi Arabia. Since they are not Saudi citizens, the parents are treated badly. The father recently had a heart attack and they had a hard time trying to find a doctor to treat him as most of the Saudi doctors refused to treat a non-Saudi citizen. He survived the heart attack but was so weak he couldn't take his wife anywhere, so the son had to go back for a couple of months to help his mother out. As they were not Saudi citizens, they are not allowed to own a house there, so they were kicked out by their landlord so they had trouble finding another place to live.

Seriously, I don't think it's bigotry to think these things of these garments. They are very restricting and one can still be a practicing Muslim without wearing those clothes. I'll have to have a chat with him about it in a couple of weeks! After all, Saudi Arabia doesn't even respect their visitors and temporary residents either.

And I think the french government does ban the yarmaluke and sheyti in the public schools.

[Sultana]

10. Ban them, shut up, Tariq Ramadan

!!!!!!!!!!!

[EFerrari]

13. I'd like to see this guy wear one for a month and check back in with us.

:)

[reggie the dog]

19. I do not understand why women forced to wear this

do not simply divorce their husbands and move to another city. they have the right to do so once the arrive here in France. In most cases they get the kids too. I would recommend they buy a shotgun for their house to defend themselves against the angry ex but they have rights here in France that they choose not to use.

[EFerrari]

20. Digging out of a lifetime of habit is very, very hard.

[reggie the dog]

22. so true

[Frances]

51. I think I can understand why some women don't stand up for

themselves.

I grew up in the segregated South. There was tremendous societal pressure to adhere to the rules of segregation.

Everyone has heard about the whites only signs on drinking fountains, restrooms, etc. But even when there were no signs, people "obeyed" the customary segregation "rules."

It was not until segregation was ruled illegal that changes took place. I think that if segregation were voted on in my rural village today, the majority of whites would vote for segregation. But since segregation is now illegal, people of all races use the same water fountains and rest rooms.

[No Elephants]

65. See Reply 54. As far as children, Muslim women get them only unil the child reaches age 7. After

that, they go to the paternal side. You cannot expect women to give up lifelong religious beliefs just because French secular law says something else.

[Odin2005]

25. Headscarves are a symbol of the opression of women.

It's like making Jews wear a yellow star.

[clear eye]

36. It's not about your opinion of what it means.

If there are women who feel that this is an important way of observing their beliefs, and by doing this they are not harming anyone, what right has the gov't to criminalize the practice? And there are such women. Speaking of yellow stars, France doesn't have the greatest record on freedom of religion, and this is just more of the same.

Interesting that the last bunch of posts supporting the French gov't's criminalizing this religious practice of women, are all written by men. Some have actually stated, w/o substantiation, that no Muslim woman makes this choice for herself. Perhaps this is more reflective of the posters' image of Muslim women, than of reality.

Even though almost all DUers think that fundamentalist Christian beliefs about wives' subservience to their husbands is a bunch of repressive junk, I don't think many would want U.S. legislation to criminalize the behavior in wives reflecting that belief. I think most would feel that such a law would be a blatant violation of women's freedom of religion and autonomy. If a woman is not persuaded by other women's beliefs in gender equality, most would think that under the law she should have the right to make that unfortunate choice for herself in ways that don't impose it on others.

If the problem is male imposition of the burqa, then that is what should be criminalized.

[dustbunnie]

38. Most of the negative comments are from women.

And you know perfectly well that one cannot criminalize attitudes. These fundie French assholes will continue to manipulate, subjugate, repress, abuse and beat their women for as long as they wish. Nothing anyone can do about it. But at least, westernized women shouldn't have to be assaulted by these pathetic medieval attitudes where they live and work as equals with men.

Fundie women in North America may be repressed as well, but they enter the public square as human beings, not faceless creatures.

[clear eye]

43. No one can do anything about men who BEAT women??

"their women" vs. westernized women who "shouldn't have to be assaulted by...{their} attitudes"?? Sounds to me like it is you who lacks all respect for French Muslim women. People are better off w/o that sort of contempt-filled "help".

[dustbunnie]

44. Go visit the ghetto in France, then come talk to me.

You are quite ignorant if you think anyone is going in there to investigate spousal/child abuse. Haha, what a joke. In fact, why don't you go in there, stand on a street corner and try to take a survey of the women and how they feel about it. Your brain matter will be splattered all over the street within seconds.

And yes, I lack respect for fundies of all creeds, particularly the menfolk. They are no friend to women at all.

[clear eye]

46. Don't blame me for bigoted French society not enforcing the law in Muslim neighborhoods.

In the bad old days in the U.S., a woman had to press charges before a man could be charged w/ physical abuse, no matter what police officers saw. As anti-female bigotry declined, women were able to get the law changed to make it more in line w/ any other assault situation.

Sorry, but going into dangerous neighborhoods to enforce the law is the job of the police. Their negligence is no excuse to further oppress women by penalizing them either for expressing their beliefs or for male coercion. This proposed law is simply wrongheaded.

On edit: It sounds to me like you're saying that since Muslim women are less dangerous to arrest than Muslim men, the law to reduce the numbers of women coerced to wear a burqa should involve arresting the women.

[dustbunnie]

47. I think they mean for it to discourage the practice of importing brides for marriage.

As it stands, they keep sending for uneducated peasant women from the hills of Morocco, so there's never a second or third generation of immigrant. It's always first, perpetuating isolationist, misogynist attitudes.

It isn't negligence by the police when the ghetto dwellers refuse to talk and exact punishment on those who do. I don't see where the cops do such a great job in gang-infested areas of the US. That's because it's virtually impossible without trampling on peoples' rights, and unlike fundies and criminals, we do have some respect for secular law.

Years ago, France spent millions setting up safe houses and counseling for women who wanted to get out of their fundie situations. But no one came. What do they get when they do anyway. Shunned by their community and thrown out onto the street by their families. This is the next step, and it's not a punishment aimed at women. They have no say anyway. They wear what they're told. It's a wake up call to men. And as I said above, those who don't like it, will stop coming to France.

[AlphaCentauri]

94. Burqa will hide the scars of the abuse

a good way to hide all the abuse marks on women would be to keep them using burqas

[mamaleah]

77. Headscarve =/= burqa. I wear a tichel and am not oppressed.

Funny how people are always trying to speak for everyone else.

[clear eye]

83. Burqas are like a total black sheet body cover w/ eyeslits.

I would find wearing one oppressive, and I'd encourage more westernized French Muslim women to create a support network to reduce the # of women who are coerced into wearing one. But since some women do feel that their religion demands it and aren't under coercion, a legal ban strikes me as interfering w/ freedom of religion, and is probably a very ineffective way of protecting women's rights.

Hijab are headscarves.

And yes, people, especially minorities, are better off spared from such condescending "help".

[riderinthestorm]

91. Sorry but sometimes "condescending help" is required in the form of laws

especially when you are dealing with backwards practices from tribal societies that won't reform unless forced.

Everything from FGM to (yes) burqas needs to go. ASAP. Legally and by force if needs be.

[w4rma]

32. Burqas should be banned, everywhere. (nt)

[marshall]

35. Remember when western women were burning their bras as a token of their freedom?

Perhaps a movement could be started to encourage middle eastern women to burn their burqas.

[clear eye]

45. Encouraging Muslim women to abandon the burqa

by donating to or volunteering at a women's center in their neighborhoods staffed by westernized Muslim women would be a reasonable way of changing the practice w/o stomping on people's religious freedom. So would a law that says if a woman goes to the authorities complaining that she is being forced by a male relative or spouse to wear certain clothing against her will, that the male could be charged w/ a violation.

Blanket criminalizing of a religious-based garment whether or not the woman chooses to wear it, is not advancing anyone's freedom.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. It's good to see a constructive suggestion in this thread...

I totally agree with what you said there...

[clear eye]

84. Hi. Thanks. n/t

[EFerrari]

79. So, she goes to the authorities and has him charged.

What do you think happens when she goes home?

[Posteritatis]

86. By that logic we should discourage reporting of domestic abuse. (nt)

[EFerrari]

87. Reporting domestic violence is very, very dangerous.

It can get a woman killed.

The point is, you have to think the situation all the way through.

[riderinthestorm]

92. But the US (for example) is working daily to change our culture re domestic abuse

The US government has laws and is an active part of the fight against domestic abuse.

The French are trying to address one part of the entirety of Islamic oppression of women and outlaw it as well. There will be many "fronts" in the war against Islamic oppression of women - banning the burqa is just one part.

Women who feel pressured or indoctrinated to wear the burqa reside in communities that typically also condone domestic abuse. The burqa is one part of it. Domestic abuse is another part of that whole mindset that treats women as chattel.

[No Elephants]

66. You are assuming that Muslim women who wear burqas are as free to burn them as American

women in the 60's were free to burn their bras. I don't think that is a valid assumption.

[AngryAmish]

33. France: Muslim scholars should suck it.

[No Elephants]

68. Women: France and Muslim scholars should suck it. So should anyone else

who tries to tell us what we can, should or must (or cannot) wear, be it a bikini or a burqa.

[Dr. Strange]

71. Damn them uppity women folk.

:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

81. The problem is you can't just take this garment out of context

and evacuate it of meaning and call it a woman's choice.

The thing to do, imho, is think through how women come to wear burqas. Little girls don't wake up one morning and ask their mothers to dress them in what amounts to a shroud to be a cool kid. I've never met a ten year old girl that wanted to see less when she was outdoors.

There is no comparison between a bikini and a burqa, if you think it all the way through.

And the shrouding of women in that subculture will continue unless those women get some support.

[treestar]

74. I agree, they should just let it alone

The women cannot be forced to wear one under the law of France. In time, each generation will wear it less and less.

Work harder on integration.

[TheFarseer]

93. BAN THEM!

I'm for pretty much anything that craps on religious extremism.

[JonQ]

95. Why not implement a national dress code

khakis and button up shirts for men, plaid skirts and a nice polo shirt for women. That would eliminate all these problems.

[Occulus]

97. Stop being obtuse. n/t

[JonQ]

98. I've always considered myself rather acute.