Dr. Manto Tshabalala-Msimang dies at 69; South African health minister denied HIV causes AIDS

[Adsos Letter]

Source: LA Times

Dr. Manto Tshabalala-Msimang, the former South African health minister whose AIDS denial and failure to provide treatment is blamed for more than 300,000 unnecessary deaths in the country that has suffered the brunt of the AIDS pandemic, died Wednesday in a Johannesburg hospital from complications of a 2007 liver transplant. She was 69, and press reports suggested that she was being tested for a second transplant.

Like her close friend and frequent defender, former President Thabo Mbeki, Tshabalala-Msimang did not believe that HIV causes AIDS and did not believe in using antiretroviral drugs to treat the disease, instead urging victims to use a concoction of fruits, vegetables and herbs -- which won her international derision as "Dr. Beet Root" or "Dr. Garlic."

Dr. Stephen Lewis, the former United Nations envoy for AIDS in Africa, sharply criticized the AIDS policies of Mbeki and Tshabalala-Msimang in a 2006 speech in Vancouver, Canada, calling it "more worthy of a lunatic fringe than of a concerned and compassionate state." The Treatment Action Campaign called her a "murderer" and fought many legal battles attempting to reverse her refusal to provide treatment for the country's 5.7 million HIV-positive people (out of a population of about 50 million).

Activists won a major victory in 2002 in a court case that forced the government to provide antiretroviral drugs to pregnant women to prevent transmission of the virus to their infants. Another decision in 2003 forced the government to provide drugs to people in advanced stages of AIDS.


Read more: http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-me-tshabalala-msimang17-2009dec17,0,3893206.story

[SemiCharmedQuark]

1. There are few people more loathsome to me than AIDS deniers.

Which is why I can't take Bill Maher seriously anymore.

[bobshin]

3. Totally inaccurate story. She was not an "aids denier", she was one of the few

in power to question the shaky theory of "hiv/aids". The questions have still not been answered. But the sheeple keep on buying into this bigpharma goldmine.

For those willing to think for themselves I recommend the new movie "House of Numbers"...
http://www.houseofnumbers.com/

For the rest of you, enjoy living your life in the baseless fear instilled in you.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. Oh yeah. The film that interviewed the AIDS denier that went on to die of AIDS after pretty much

killing her own daughter by refusing to get her on antiretrovirals. What a source! Hell several scientists IN the film were so humiliated by the selective editing they had to put out a press release distancing themselves form it as quickly as possible.

[bobshin]

5. Proof? nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

7. Easy peasey. Here you go:

"A few months ago 18 angry doctors and scientists interviewed in the film issued a statement claiming that Mr. Leung “acted deceitfully and unethically” when recruiting them and that his film “perpetuates pseudoscience and myths.”"

http://movies.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/movies/04house.html

[Tempest]

11. And the match goes to SemiCharmedQuark

Bobshin slinks away in embarrassment.

[Adsos Letter]

15. And the award for rational, dispassionate debate backed by skillful use of accurate facts goes to

(envelope please) *cough* (shuffling of papers here, followed by short pause):

"The award goes to SemiCharmedQuark of Democratic Underground!" :D

Well done; would that all our dealings with specious arguments could be so well handled.

There is, unfortunately, no monetary prize associated with this award; only the grateful appreciation of an anonymous public.

:toast:

[AngryAmish]

20. attagirl!

[Blue_Tires]

24. holy damn look at some of the fuckwittery in those comments...

that's another one of the hundreds of things I can never forgive the George Bush Jr. era for: making it totally acceptable to be anti-science even in the face of overwhelming evidence...

[bobshin]

26. Ha! The NYTimes was the propaganda engine for this from the start.

Do you think things have changed?

[FVZA_Colonel]

28. Yes, and unlike you they actually have scientifically tested facts to back up their positions.

Magiore all but murdered her own daughter, and threw a fit when people called her on it.

[bobshin]

30. Do you have proof of that? You can read her autopsy here...

bottom right side of screen...

http://christinemaggiorememorial.com/

how did she all but murder her daughter?

but science doesn't count when it doesn't show you what you want to see...

[sudopod]

36. You are made of gold and win. nt

[Blue_Tires]

8. tell that to the 5.7 million HIV+ people she refused to have treated

I dare you...

[Ken Burch]

31. tell it to the parents, spouses, lovers, friends and children of those

who DIED because this monstrous woman denied them the only treatment that could give them even a chance of hanging on until a cure could be found.

[bobshin]

37. More accusations without a hint of proof.

If you don't believe anything else that's said(or edited) in House of Numbers, one thing can't be denied: "aids" in Africa is an entirely different animal than what it is in the US. How can that be if this is science? Mmmmm... first the gays and then the Blacks- two populations so loved by the far right. Another interesting coincidence.

[harmonicon]

38. no one is going to bother to give you proof that the sky is blue, or that gravity is real.

All of this shit is long over, for decades now. It is understood. You are out of your fucking mind to keep going on about this. You are a crazy person and a danger to yourself and others.

I've noted that you and my friend "Ignored" have some things in common. I won't be surprised if you somehow turn into that person soon.

[harmonicon]

9. You are out of your fucking mind.

I don't know what to say to you, other than that - for their sake - I hope none of your loved ones ever die from aids. If and when they do, I'm sure they'll be happy to know that you were out their working against awareness of their disease.

[bobshin]

16. Wow! Looks like uninformed attacks are permitted on posters who hold certain views.

Many of my loved ones did indeed die- but not by what we've been told. I was living in the village in NYC beginning in 1979. I was in the middle of it all. Because of that, I informed myself beyond the talking points based on nothing but fear. Several of my friends actually committed suicide because of "positive" test results. The truth is out there if you look deep enough. Attacking me or the movie because of your ignorance will not make the facts and questions disappear. And to say I'm working against awareness is proof of your ignorance. I am promoting more awareness, awareness above and beyond the lies that are well funded and have been from the start.

Enjoy your plasticized love life based on fear. (God, they managed to get further into our bedrooms than all the privacy rights activists fear and no one questions it- amazing.)

And furthermore, I would NEVER say any such thing about someone who disagrees with me.

[harmonicon]

17. this has nothing to do with disagreement

There is fact and lie. To "disagree" with the facts is not the same as disagreeing about opinion. To be confronted with scientific fact and to "disagree" with it is INSANE. In this case, it is not only insane, but also potentially very harmful. For the wrong person to actually buy into what you're pedaling could lead to incredibly harmful results.

As for my love-life, I'm quite happy with it, thank you very much.

[bobshin]

18. If my facts and your facts don't jive then it is disagreement.

My facts come from a life that started when I was a very young man living and coming out in the West Village in NYC in 1979. My doctor was Dr. Sonnabend. I was acquainted with some of the most famous people who died back then. I was involved with ACT-UP early on. I lived it. I breathed it. My experiences on this subject couldn't be more informed. As far as being harmful, I believe that the views of the "hiv/aids" inventors and defenders have been the dangerous ones. (Have you ever looked into the criminals who were the experts?) But that's only my experience, take it or leave it.

I am not shoving my views on anyone who isn't ready to listen and I am not interested in putting such people down. All I can hope to do is make others realize that it's not all so black and white.

[FVZA_Colonel]

19. The problem is that your "facts" on HIV/AIDS have been thoroughly refuted by the medical community.

You're no intellcually different from a Creationist.

And that minister had blood on her hands.

[harmonicon]

21. there is no ownership of fact.

Facts are facts. What you call your "facts" seem to be from non-scientific conjecture based on some type of anecdotal evidence. What I'm talking about is scientific fact. There is a big difference. As someone else has pointed out, this is no different that trying to argue against evolution, or against the fact that the earth orbits the sun.

[bobshin]

22. And medical facts are scientific? Not based on anecdotal evidence?

Anecdotal evidence like the double blind studies on AZT that were stopped for "ethical reasons"? There's never been another factual scientific study to prove the effectiveness or not of AZT. Instead, as even most defenders will concur, the results of this faulty study resulted in thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of deaths, from "over-dosage". I knew several of those people. They were murdered by this industry. So now those taking the "cocktail" and such are just being killed more slowly. And nothing but anecdotes has resulted in the present medical concoction being prescribed because there has been no study-save for the volunteer human guinea pigs naively trusting others to make decisions for them- to conclude that this cocktail does anything other than (falsely) keeping some people alive longer that would- or wouldn't, who knows?- die earlier otherwise. Some claim that the virus is mutating all the time while the test results in different labs and in different countries continue to be inconsistent while people who tested once as "hiv-positive" and "hiv-negative" get on-again, off-again results if they continue to get tested. Most never bother and most are discouraged (that disability check certainly comes in handy).

One only needs to look at the annual Merck manuals from 1980 on to see the progressively larger number of diseases included in the "aids" basket. (Whatever happened to Karposi's Sarcoma?) Now if you get a cold in Africa, they may consider you to have "aids" even without a test! But this isn't anecdotal, no, this is scientific fact. Consistent, conclusive and firm. Par for the course, this inconsistency is pointed out as being the result of the mutations and ever-changing face of the disease. Pure science!

[harmonicon]

23. Yes, medicine is science. Good job. Next! (nt)

[bobshin]

25. And your "facts" are? Tell me where is there any proof that what I've mentioned is false?

Good luck. There is none.

If this crisis were as bad as science says it is where are the numbers? If this is so contagious, why have the numbers gone down? You actually believe that most people are practicing safe sex 100% of the time? You have more faith in the general population than I ever could. And I have plenty of anecdotal evidence that most people don't even bother with this stuff any more. It's a dying issue because it never was a real issue. But the "aids" establishment have to prop it up every so often in the press to keep it on people's minds. Most of those efforts are desperate attempts based on nothing but farce.

[FVZA_Colonel]

27. If you're really going to ignore the multitude of peer-reviewed evidence, you really are no better

than a Creationist, a Global Warming skeptic or a 9/11 Truther.

Pick up a medical journal and stop resorting to some conspiracy theory of powerful groups creating an issue for the sake of making money.

[bobshin]

32. For the sake of making money! Bingo!

Let's measure how much money has been thrown at the "aid/hiv" epidemic compared to how many people have supposedly died from it and are supposedly ill from it. Now, compare it to every other illness. Come again about the sake of making money.

Why bother defending this unless you have:
a.) a lot of stock in bigPharma
b.) a job that depends on the wasted research money and support industry for "aids/hiv"

Yes, all the denialist power brokers have made a fortune off naive people like me! (For the record I contributed many of thousands of dollars to several "aids" research funds before I knew any better. I might have spent a couple of hundred on a large collection of literature relating to the hoax.)

[kwassa]

29. Are you HIV+? What are you taking, if anything?

A friend of mine discovered he was HIV+ in the early '80s. He has been on the cocktail. He is alive and well. His former boyfriend who only believed in homeopathic medicine is no longer here.

My friend's childhood friend grew up to become a doctor. Dr. Harold Jaffe of the CDC, involved with the AIDs fight from the beginning, and head of HIV prevention programs. My friend would call him up to ask questions about the knowledge available, particularly in the early years of the battle.

I think you have no idea what you are talking about.

[bobshin]

33. There was no cocktail in the early 80's. I think you have no idea what you're talking about.

Most of the gay men who died in the 80's were- and had been throughout the 70's- on a toxic mixture of uppers, downers, recreational drugs, alcohol, poppers and prescribed drugs for social diseases. After awhile, even after you've gotten off the drugs, your body gives up from the abuse. Read Larry Kramer's "Faggots" sometime- the answers are all there. (Talk about someone who has used this thing to the hilt and made tons of money doing it, it's Larry Kramer.) When that generation of drug abusers disappeared so did the scourge. For anyone that was around NYC through the late 80's and 90's safe sex was rare. So what happened? Did the virus mutate out of the gay population? It certainly isn't much of a factor now, gay "unprotected" sex. Rubber sales are way down and more gay men are out and about than ever.

[kwassa]

39. actually ...

I didn't claim he was on the cocktail back then. He has been for a long time. He is still healthy.

Vast scientific resources have been devoted stopping HIV. You know nothing about science, as you think your anecdotal experience, the single data point that is you, and your personal observations trump scientific explanation. That is willfull ignorance.

As others in this thread have said, this puts you in the same category as holocaust deniers and other conspiracy theory nuts.

you also didn't answer my question about your HIV status and what you are taking, but that is quite secondary, of course.

[Tempest]

12. Wow, someone is still peddling that bullshit documentary

Which has been denounced by all major scientific and medical organizations worldwide as being pseudoscience and sophistry.

[fascisthunter]

14. let me guess... a movie churchs show their idiot flocks

[sudopod]

34. You should thank god every day

that stupid does not cause pain.

[WriteDown]

6. Just like anti-vaxers, these people are scary...

Anyone remember the boxer, Tommy Morrison? (I think I have the name right)

[bobshin]

35. Hey, I'm an anti-vaxer too! Just got this email about the H1N1 vaccine fire sale...

http://www.naturalnews.com/027766_H1N1_vaccines_swine_flu.html

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

10. Wait, WHAT? Maher is a HIV denier? Link? -nt

[WriteDown]

13. Just type in "Bill Maher AIDS denialist" in google...

Its not just AIDS, its vaccines and even general bacteria.

[AndrewP]

2. She was a horrible woman

Good riddance