Colombia rebel groups Farc and ELN agree 'to unite'

[pampango]

Source: BBC

Two of Colombia's biggest rebel groups have announced they intend to unite with each other against the country's US-backed security forces. The Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc) and the National Liberation Army (ELN) said they were "on our way toward working for unity".

Farc and the smaller ELN have deep ideological differences. Farc has in the past tried to absorb ELN, although the smaller group proved to be stronger than expected, beating back the Farc in several areas.

The Farc is Colombia's oldest and largest left-wing rebel group. It was once thought to have some 16,000 fighters, but reports suggest it now has around 9,000. The group is rural-based and finances itself through drug trafficking.

The ELN was formed in 1965 by intellectuals inspired by the Cuban revolution, and is more political, having succeeded in recruiting in cities and towns.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8417595.stm

[DontTreadOnMe]

1. 9,000! That's nine times more terrorists than Al-Queda!

Send in the marines! Oh wait, there aren't any left.

[SpiralHawk]

2. "All your peons & resources are belong to us." - US

As usual.

[Mudoria]

3. Civilans of Colombia beware...

united thugs running around killing, kidnapping and drug running. Betweeen the Para's and FARC the peasants life expectancy isn't very high.

[Judi Lynn]

6. Even though human rights groups have stated for years the paras are responsible for most killings?

Your relationship to the truth on this matter is weak, to put it mildly.

RIGHTS-COLOMBIA: Paramilitaries Extend Their Tentacles
By Constanza Vieira

The United Nations and human rights groups like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch hold the paramilitaries responsible for the great majority of the atrocities committed in Colombia's armed conflict.

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=25838

~~~~~~~~~
Along for the ride: how Colombia's paramilitaries retain power: the U.S.-backed government appears to be doing all it can to help paramilitary commanders evade hard time.

But the paramilitaries have rarely engaged in combat against the guerrillas. Instead, often working closely with government forces, they've focused on unarmed social movements, assassinating thousands of trade unionists, peasant leaders, human rights advocates, and politicians. "They've destroyed the legal left," says Hector Mondragon, economic adviser to a coalition of rural, black, and indigenous groups.

Paramilitaries have also carried out most of the war's civilian massacres, a major factor convincing three million Colombians to flee their homes since 1985. Now 61 percent of the nation's arable acreage is in the hands of 0.4 percent of landholders, according to a study by the Agustin Codazzi Geographic Institute and the Colombian Agriculture Research Corporation. Paramilitary chiefs themselves acquired more than twelve million acres abandoned by peasants between 1997 and 2003, according to a December report by the Consultancy for Human Rights and Displacement. Bolstering the land grabs, Uribe and his allies have removed teeth from agrarian reform laws, including a 1936 measure allowing public reallocation of parcels left idle.

Paramilitaries have played a key role in turning the narcotics trade into Colombia's largest export sector. The United States has requested extradition of at least seven paramilitary chiefs on drug-trafficking charges. They include Mancuso and AUC founder Carlos Castano, now missing. Both were indicted INDICTED, practice. When a man is accused by a bill of indictment preferred by a grand jury, he is said to be indicted. in 2002 for allegedly exporting more than seventeen tons of cocaine over the previous five years.

Across the country, the paramilitary movement has infiltrated city halls, provincial governments, and federal agencies, most notably the health care program and the attorney general's office. The infiltration helps them control a range of illegal activity. "Here in Cucuta, not a single kilo Thousand (10 to the 3rd power). Abbreviated "K." For technical specifications, it refers to the precise value 1,024 since computer specifications are based on binary numbers. For example, 64K means 65,536 bytes when referring to memory or storage (64x1024), but a 64K salary means $64,000. of coca is sold without their authorization," says Wilfredo Canizares, executive director of the Progress Foundation, a human rights group in that city. "They'll kill you."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Along+for+the+ride:+how+Colombia's+paramilitaries+retain+power:+the+...-a0132674579


~~~~~~~~~
July 1, 2005

Colombia's Disappeared
Their Names, At Least
By JUSTICIA Y PAZ

Colombian President Alvaro Uribe Vélez opened negotiations with the country's right-wing paramilitaries almost as soon as he took office in August 2002. The paramilitaries -- currently grouped in a national federation called the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC) -- have been responsible for the majority of murders and forced displacements of civilians in Colombia's tragic armed conflict for many years. Over 3 million Colombians have been uprooted from their homes and communities -- "displaced" -- since 1985, and tens of thousands more have been murdered. The paramilitaries' signature terror methods include slow torture, dismemberment, and the use of chainsawsWhen guerrilla groups participated in the formation of new political parties in the 1980s as part of an attempt to resolve the decades-old war between the government and guerrillas, paramilitaries exterminated over 3,000 members of these new parties.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cryan07012005.html

~~~~~~~~~
Colombia: Thousands Come Out for Anti-Paramilitary March
Written by Helda Martínez
Friday, 07 March 2008

The far-right paramilitary militias, which in the 1980s joined the security forces in their fight against the leftist rebel groups that emerged in 1964, have been blamed by the United Nations for the lion’s share of the human rights crimes committed in the armed conflict.

. . . .

"Disappearance is a monstrous crime," former Bogotá mayor Antanas Mockus told IPS. "That is why…we started this march at the Magdalena river," he said, after accompanying hundreds of mainly indigenous and black people displaced by the war on the three-day march from Flandes.

"We were inspired by an audiovisual testimony by the artist Clemencia Echeverri, who recently showed, in a sophisticated Bogotá art gallery, a night-time recording taken from the two shores of the Cauca river" in the northwestern province of Antioquia, said Mockus. (Antioquia is a paramilitary stronghold.)

"On the recording, you hear the sound of the water flowing, and above that you hear the screams of peasant farmers and chainsaws running, and you can see people with sticks, fishing pieces of clothing out of the river," he added.

According to testimony from numerous survivors and members of paramilitary groups, the latter frequently used chainsaws to cut their victims up alive.

Jusice and Peace also reported that 1,700 indigenous people, 2,550 trade unionists and 5,000 members of the now-defunct leftist political party Patriotic Union were murdered between 1982 and 2005.

"The paramilitaries have perpetrated more than 3,500 massacres and stolen more than six million hectares of land, and since their demobilisation they have killed 600 people a year. They also achieved control over 35 percent of the seats in Congress," said the Movement of Victims of Crimes of the State (MOVICE), which organised Thursday’s nationwide march.

http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/1170/61/

~~~~~~~~~
Coca-Cola, Nestle, Chiquita on 'trial' in Colombia
By Constanza Vieira

Colombia is the most dangerous country in the world for trade unionists, who are frequent paramilitary targets. Although private armed groups have long existed in Colombia, today's paramilitary groups emerged in the early 1980s, financed by landowners to fight the leftist guerrillas, who were kidnapping and extorting wealthy ranchers. The collaboration between paramilitaries and the armed forces has been well documented by the United Nations, the US State Department, and Colombian government investigators, who hold the paramilitaries responsible for the lion's share of the atrocities committed in Colombia's four-decade civil war.

http://www.theglobalreport.org/print.php?news_id=561

There are so many more references, resources you should have encountered by now. Why not spend some time getting your facts straight?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

9. Lynn, surely you'd agree that paramilitary violence was in decline for a period

which the FARC often used as an opportunity for revenge killings on demilitarized fighters. I'm not saying that this makes the recent increases in paramilitary okay or acceptable, but it does make it clear that both sides in this conflict are feeding into the worst tendencies of the other and the outcome is bad for all Colombians.

[Mudoria]

17. No matter how you spin it your sources are trash..

educate yourself by reading things that aren't preordained to promote your biased viewpoint. Such ignorance is really astounding...

[happyslug]

26. You demonstrate the three rules of Debate

First Rule, if you are weak on Facts, rely on emotion.
Second Rule, if you are weak on emotion, rely on facts.
Third Rule, If you are weak on Emotion and Facts insult your opponent

You may dispute the cited facts, but at least cite some facts that support your opinion DO NOT JUST INSULT SOMEONE FOR HAVING THE "WRONG FACTS". Personally I do not have a dog in the fighting in Columbia so in many ways I do NOT care which side is worse, but the reports (not stories, not newspaper article, but actual reports by people who STUDIED the problem) tend to put a greater blame on the Government Forces and their paramilitary allies instead of on ELN or FARC. You may dispute that but at least cite something that is based on some factual finding NOT opinion and do NOT just attack someone whose opinion on the subject you do not like.

[lib2DaBone]

4. Let's throw some more gasoline on that fire....

Hire a few more DEA Assasins.... piss away a few billion $$$

Fly in a few more tons of coke on CIA jets....

:silly:

[Judi Lynn]

7. It'll get everyone's mind off the health insurance industry's death grip on helpless citizens. n/t

[harmonicon]

5. good - I hope it helps to bring peace. (nt)

[Judi Lynn]

8. TV host shot dead in western Colombia

TV host shot dead in western Colombia

New York, December 17, 2009—An unidentified gunman shot and killed Colombian journalist Hárold Humberto Rivas Quevedo in the western Valle del Cauca province on the night of December 15. The Committee to Protect journalists today called on Colombian authorities to investigate the killing and do everything in their power to bring all those responsible to justice.

Rivas, 49, host of the political commentary show “Comuna Libre” on local TV station CNC Bugavisión and sports commentator on the local radio station Voces de Occidente, left the CNC Bugavisión offices in Buga shortly after 10 p.m., station manager Javier Gil told CPJ. Minutes later, Rivas arrived at a local funeral home, which he also managed, where he was approached by an individual wearing a dark motorcycle helmet, according to local news reports. The unidentified assailant fired five shots at Rivas’ head before fleeing with a second individual on a motorcycle that was parked outside the funeral home. Rivas died immediately, Gil told CPJ.

On the night of his murder, Rivas had just finished taping a live show. According to the station manager, Rivas was generally critical of civic problems but did not directly criticize particular officials or authorities, nor did he touch on sensitive issues. It was not immediately clear whether he was killed because of his work.

A special team of investigators from the local police began an immediate inquiry, reported the national daily El Tiempo. Gil said investigators had not made any leads public.

“Colombian authorities must promptly and thoroughly investigate the killing of Hárold Humberto Rivas Quevedo,” said Robert Mahoney, CPJ’s deputy director. “In a country where self-censorship has become the norm among provincial reporters, authorities must show their commitment to the protection of the local press by bringing all those responsible for Rivas’ death to justice.”

The rate of journalist murders has declined slightly in Colombia, historically one of the world’s deadliest nations for the press, CPJ research has found. The government credits increased security, although CPJ research shows that pervasive self-censorship has made the press less of a target.

In its year-end analysis, published today, CPJ found at least 68 journalists worldwide were killed for their work in 2009, the highest yearly tally ever documented by the organization. One of the year’s victims was Colombian journalist José Everardo Aguilar, 72, a correspondent for Radio Súper in the southern city of Patía, who was shot to death inside his home on April 29. He was known for his harsh criticism of corruption and making links between local politicians and right-wing paramilitaries.

More:
http://cpj.org/2009/12/tv-host-shot-dead-in-western-colombia.php

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

10. Not sure how much this move really matters

The FARC's ranks have been steadily decreasing over the last decade, at best, this move doesn't even bump them up to the number of fighters they had in late '80s/early '90s. Their cause is outdated and all the maneuvering in the world won't change that.

[harmonicon]

11. Their cause is outdated?

Which cause? Equal rights? A government formed by the country's citizens? What is outdated?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

12. Specifically, a revolution centered around land reform.

The majority of the population lives in urban areas. This isn't the 1960s anymore and for them to still be out there playing Che is a bit ridiculous.

That and, you know, Communism as a whole.

[Judi Lynn]

14. If only you'd be humble enough to acquaint yourself with Colombian facts, rather than creating them

yourself.

Land reform? Have you EVER attempted to find any evidence for such a bogus, misleading claim? You'd be hard-pressed to find authentic proof these people have been struggling and dying for over half a century in order to get land which doesn't belong to them.

The Dark Side of Plan Colombia By Teo Ballvé
This article appeared in the June 15, 2009 edition of The Nation.

May 27, 2009

Research support for this article was provided by the Puffin Foundation Investigative Fund at The Nation Institute, with additional support from Project Word, a Massachusetts-based media nonprofit organization.

On May 14 Colombia's attorney general quietly posted notice on his office's website of a public hearing that will decide the fate of Coproagrosur, a palm oil cooperative based in the town of Simití in the northern province of Bolívar. A confessed drug-trafficking paramilitary chief known as Macaco had turned over to the government the cooperative's assets, which he claims to own, as part of a victim reparations program.

Macaco, whose real name is Carlos Mario Jiménez, was one of the bloodiest paramilitary commanders in Colombia's long-running civil war and has confessed to the murder of 4,000 civilians. He and his cohorts are also largely responsible for forcing 4.3 million Colombians into internal refugee status, the largest internally displaced population in the world after Sudan's. In May 2008, Macaco was extradited to the United States on drug trafficking and "narco-terrorism" charges. He is awaiting trial in a jail cell in Washington, DC.

Macaco turned himself in to authorities in late 2005 as part of a government amnesty program that requires paramilitary commanders to surrender their ill-gotten assets--including lands obtained through violent displacement. Macaco offered up Coproagrosur as part of the deal.

But the attorney general's notice made no mention that Coproagrosur had received a grant in 2004 from the US Agency for International Development (USAID). That grant--paid for through Plan Colombia, the multibillion-dollar US aid package aimed at fighting the drug trade--appears to have put drug-war dollars into the hands of a notorious paramilitary narco-trafficker, in possible violation of federal law. Colombia's paramilitaries are on the State Department's list of foreign terrorist organizations. USAID's due diligence process "did not fail," according to an official response from the US embassy there, because Macaco was not officially listed among Coproagrosur's owners.

Since 2002 Plan Colombia has authorized about $75 million a year for "alternative development" programs like palm oil production. These programs provide funds for agribusiness partnerships with campesinos in order to wean them from cultivating illicit crops like coca, which can be used to make cocaine. These projects are concentrated in parts of northern Colombia that were ground zero for the mass displacement of campesinos.

USAID officials say the projects provide an alternative to drug-related violence for a battle-scarred country. They insist that the agency screens vigilantly for illegal activity and has not rewarded cultivators of stolen lands. But a study of USAID internal documents, corporate filings and press reports raises questions about the agency's vetting of applicants, in particular its ability to detect their links to narco-paramilitaries, violent crimes and illegal land seizures.

In addition to the $161,000 granted to Coproagrosur, USAID also awarded $650,000 to Gradesa, a palm company with two accused paramilitary-linked narco-traffickers on its board of directors. A third palm company, Urapalma, also accused of links with paramilitaries, nearly won approval for a grant before its application stalled because of missing paperwork. Critics say such grants defeat the antidrug mission of Plan Colombia.

"Plan Colombia is fighting against drugs militarily at the same time it gives money to support palm, which is used by paramilitary mafias to launder money," says Colombian Senator Gustavo Petro, an outspoken critic of the palm industry. "The United States is implicitly subsidizing drug traffickers."

More:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090615/ballve/single

http://www.radiosantafe.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/macaco-auc.jpg

Carlos Mario Jiménez "Macaco"

http://www.cambio.com.co.nyud.net:8090/paiscambio/719/IMAGEN/IMAGEN-3504432-2.jpg

A.U.C. leader "Macaco's" ( Carlos Mario Jiménez, recently sent to the U.S. on drug charges, while
citizens protested that his stay in the U.S. will allow him to avoid charges for the massacres he
committed in Colombia against villagers.) right-wing paramilitary death squad as it enters yet another village.

Forced Displacement, Land Reclamation, and Corporate Power in Colombia
April 26, 2008 By Eustaquio Polo

Eustaquio Polo Rivera is Vice President of the Major Leadership Council of the Curvaradó River Basin, Chocó, Colombia. He is an active leader in his community's struggle for justice and food security, as they fight to reclaim collectively-titled lands stolen and occupied by oil palm plantations since the 1997 displacement of the region's inhabitants at the hands of the US-funded Colombian military and affiliated paramilitary death squads. Colombia has the second-largest internally displaced population in the world; sixty percent of the roughly four million dispossessed Colombians have been driven from areas of "of mineral, agricultural or other economic importance," according to Amnesty International. For his advocacy and efforts to help his community reclaim what is rightfully theirs, Mr. Polo has received threats of assassination from paramilitaries reformed after the purported "demobilization" process.

....

Thank you for letting me address you tonight. Please receive a warm welcome from the Chocó county of Colombia and from myself, Eustaquio Polo Rivera. I am Vice President of the Major Council of the basin of the Curvaradó River, and legal representative of a smaller council.

I come here with the grace of God and the support of the church of Justicia y Paz and also with help from Molly and Jake. I have been asked to tell you a little bit about the human rights abuses that the people of the Chocó territories are suffering.

These lands are the lands where most of the Africans brought to Colombia as slaves have lived for a long time. Three groups of people share culture here—people of African descent, people of mixed descent, and people of indigenous descent. There has been a shared culture there for many years now.

This is land that is recognized by Law 70 as collectively owned by the three groups of Afro-Colombians, mixed race people, and indigenous people. We used to have farms in this territory. The land supported our families, and we also sold bananas to the United States.

Then, in October of 1996, an operation called Operation Genesis came in, led by the General Commander Rito Alejo Del Rio.

This military operation was in conjunction with a paramilitary group called AUC.

This military group came in and asked the peasants to move out. They said, "Move out, or people will come after us to kill people, to take your heads."

In the same year, 1996, in a place called Brisas, they killed 6 people. They killed them and threw them into the river. That year half of the people who lived in the area left. The other half stayed, and we stayed resisting the displacement. But the incursions from the military and paramilitaries continued. They tied the peasants down. When the paramilitaries or military would get people, they would cut off their fingers, their ears, and their private parts. And they killed them with chainsaws. They would cut right through their chest cavity and take out their internal organs. In our river basin they killed 113 people just that way.

Then in 1997, the incursions from the military and paramilitaries increased. The military and paramilitary alliance came and said to us that we needed to leave, all of us. They threatened saying that if we didn't leave, they could not respond for their actions. They said that the reason we needed to leave is that they would be bombing that territory to take the guerrillas out. A lot of people left then. One part of the peasants left toward the hills, and other people fled to other places in Colombia.

In the year 2000, a group from the police collected signatures from members of paramilitaries and some peasants left in the area. They said they were collecting the signatures to get three military bases in the area, and they claimed that this was so peasants could return to their land. This was not the case. These signatures were used by businesses to take over the land and implement the planting of African palm plantations in the collectively-titled territory. They used them to prove that peasants were in agreement with the planting of the palm, but the peasants were actually outside the territory, fled to the hills.

More:
http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/17339

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

16. If I had to guess, I'd say you're misreading my post.

I didn't say the paramilitaries were fighting for land reform. I said the FARC are and consistently have since their very founding. However, if you're choosing to dispute that basic fact... here:

The FARC grew directly out of the independent republics and self-defense forces of rural Colombia in the aftermath of La Violencia (read up on Marquetalia, as well as Sureshot's own history as one of the 48 fighters). While their tactics and levels of organization have evolved significantly since the 1960s, their goals really haven't (instead of being updated, if anything, they've been left by the wayside). Go ahead. Read through each of the statements issued at the conclusion of each of the guerilla conferences. If I'm wrong, the evidence will be there. I've taken this basic step in understanding the conflict, so I wish you luck in finding it.

Next time, take a minute or two to read my posts before responding with a flurry of copy and pastes, will ya? Because from the looks of it, you're picking a fight over something we probably actually agree on here.

[Judi Lynn]

21. Clearly the FARC and so many others have been fighting to get BACK the land

stolen from them by people like the AUC acting on behalf of the large landowners who have simply taken it by force from the campesinos who lived and worked on their land for generations.

No one accused you of having claimed the paras fought for land reform. They helped STEAL the land for e ither the landowners or for themselves, and in many cases gave it to the Colombian government who then sold it to corporations.

You owe it to yourself to have a grasp of the subject.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

27. In many cases

the land thefts occured long before the paramilitaries appeared on the scene, though they were definitely started, in part, to ensure that the status quo remains in place. However, let's face it, that doesn't change the fact that Colombia is increasingly urban and that the FARC's line on this issue resonates less and less with people as time goes on.

Secondly, you very clearly did accuse of me of stating that the paramilitaries were fighting for land reform, but if you don't want to admit your error, that's fine.

Third, thanks for not filling your post with irrelevant copy and pasted articles this time around.

[harmonicon]

18. tell that to the rest of Latin America

Columbia is one of the increasingly small number of right-wing Latin American governments. The countries around them are changing as their people are given real democratic opportunities, and they are choosing to form leftists, if not outright socialist or communist states.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

19. How many of them brought about such changes by hiding in the bush for fifty years

and playing Che?

[harmonicon]

25. Playing? None. Actual armed conflict? Well, Cuba comes to mind. (nt)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

28. Cuba, and...?

[ngant17]

13. Au contraire, I think it will force the rightist regime into a corner

like a wounded animal, they will command their paramilitaries to start increasing the mass-killings of civilians again, to further terrorize the population as it has done in the past.

When you get two seasoned guerrilla groups into a merger, even a loose marriage of convenience, one can imagine that US will realize their bootlicker regime is on the way out soon, and they will have to start introducing its Pentagon special ops teams into the jungle firefights a la 1980-'s El Salvador.

You can expect more drone coverage, although this probably would be very ineffective in the wet, humid jungles of South America, this is not the arid deserts of SW Asia.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

15. The thing about the paramilitaries is

that generally speaking, they don't need to be given direct orders from anyone. They act based on their own interests, which happen to coincide with those of the government.

Also, the FARC and the ELN have already had a "loose marriage of convenience" for the most part, so it's unlikely that this will change much. Will the paramilitaries step things up? Probably, but that trend was established long before this was announced.

[murdoch]

22. The FARC's near death has been proclaimed repeatedly, sort of like Fidel's

People have been predicting the near death of the FARC since 1964. 45 years later they are still going strong.

You're giving the late 80s and early 90s as the FARC's strong period? In 1996, FARC attacked the Las Delicias army base and captured 60 soldiers. This was the largest successful FARC operation to date. FARC had quite a string of victories after that, and around that time period the left in Colombia had an active massive movement with millions of Colombians striking, demonstrating etc. in the cities and the countryside.

The US started sending one billion a year to try to keep down FARC and the left in Colombia. That hasn't been working, so now in additional to the small US outposts which exist, the US is beginning to build massive military bases in Colombia staffed by US soldiers. If FARC is so on the ropes, why is this necessary? The fact that it is happening is proof enough that FARC is not on the ropes at all, it has just been changing its tactics due to the US becoming more and more actively engaged with them.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

24. I would argue that the aftermath of the UP experiment

if you can call it that, signalled the start of the FARC's strong point, which has tapered off greatly since then. The FARC were estimated to be at 18,000 fighters in 2000, today they're estimated at half that, and as the worldwide demonstrations against their tactic of kidnapping show, public opinion is not what it used to be for them.

Also, it should be noted that U.S. strategy in the region is bigger than the FARC or the ELN. The main focus is on drug trafficking, not on defeating the FARC on behalf of the Colombian government. From my understanding of this as well, we won't be "build(ing) massive military bases" but simply gaining access to the already existing ones within Colombia.

[murdoch]

20. Hopefully this will pave the wave for a FARC/ELN victory

FARC was born because the Colombian elite do not care for democracy, in the case of Gaitan's assassination. Colombians who wanted to be left alone fled for rural areas - but the US military began attacking them even there with Operation Marquetalia in the 1960s. In the 1980s FARC began a ceasefire and tried to go the electoral route but the UP candidates and supporters were slaughtered.

The massacre of UP candidates in the 1980s during FARCs ceasefire shows that there is no way back to elections for those who don't want to bow to the Colombian elite and the US. Just look what happened in Honduras - the president was overthrown in a coup and his supporters killed, opposition candidates killed, the press closed by the army, the liberals on this board cheer. The FARC and the peasants it represents have two choices - bow down or fight for freedom. The 1980 UP massacres, and what just happened in Honduras, go to prove the point.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

23. A few things

The FARC weren't formed as a direct result of Gaitan's assassination. They grew out of the independent republics which were generally formed by communist bands during La Violencia, but that seems more a result of the chaos of the time more than anything else.

Secondly, in the aftermath of La Violencia, yes, the Colombian military began asserting control over these independent republics (most nations would've done the same, there's something to be said for controlling your own territory, after all) and this led to the showdown at Marquetalia.

Third, yes, the UP candidates and their supporters suffered horrendously during the 1980s. Sometimes this was at the hands of the military, sometimes it was at the hands of the paramilitaries (many of which were formed as a direct backlash against past guerilla violence, btw...) This was the last real chance for peace in Colombia and it was quickly flushed down the toilet. However, since that time, other developments have taken place, including the FARC being handed territory in an effort to jumpstart the peace process (which the FARC simply used to rearm). A lot of posters on this board seem to fall into a trap where they see one side as the "good guys" and the other side as the "bad guys", when really, this issue isn't black and white. Both sides have serious, serious flaws and both sides have treated civilians horrendously.

With regard to Honduras, while many of us do oppose the limitations on the press and on public demonstrations, as well as the detentions, and in some cases, killings, this doesn't change the fact that the Court specifically ordered the president to be removed because he broke the law. In that sense, it really wasn't a coup. Also, the fact that the Congress, controlled by Zelaya's own party, refused to reinstate him should tell you that that issue isn't as black and white as it might appear either.

[harmonicon]

31. the fact that you keep repeating right-wing lies about Honduras...

makes me question the accuracy of anything you post. What you have stated in the last paragraph here is complete fiction. You are doing nothing but spreading propaganda on that front, so why should I consider anything else that you post to be valid? Some people may believe these lies, but others know the truth. What do you have to say to us?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

32. Do tell

It's complete fiction that the military was acting on the orders of the Court?

[harmonicon]

33. Yes.

Regardless of that, to pretend that there is a legal way to kidnap someone at gunpoint, blindfold them, and put them on a plane out of the country which they are the president of is a complete joke.

I am not going to rehash this here. You are spreading lies and you know it. Go try it on someone who may not be so informed and may believe what you say.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

34. Okay.

Well, no offense, but you're wrong. The military was acting on the orders of the Court.

"The Supreme Court said that it had ordered the removal of the President to defend the rule of law."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6596689.ece

[AlphaCentauri]

29. Now they can work for peace and become a political party

I'm optimistic

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

30. I'd like to be..

just not sure the situation on the ground is much better for that than it was in the 1980s.

[AlphaCentauri]

35. With Uribe in power is not likely to happen

there must be a possibility for peace when all the Uribistas pro right wing get out of the government, Colombia need new blood in their political stream not the old dinos.