Italian town where a White Christmas is a police matter

[Kelvin Mace]

Source: The Guardian

But in this town of 8,000 inhabitants between Milan and Venice, the approach to Christianity's most sacred festival has been marked in a very special way. On orders from the local council, controlled by the conservative Northern League, police have been carrying out house-to-house searches for illegal immigrants in an action dubbed Operation White Christmas. The operation is due to finish on December 25.

Some 3,000 people have marched through the town in protest at the operation, which the Vatican called "sad and distressing". But it has been endorsed by Silvio Berlusconi's government. Visiting nearby Brescia, where he announced the opening of a detention camp for suspected illegal immigrants – a so-called centre for identification and expulsion – Berlusconi's interior minister, Roberto Maroni, a leader of the League, complimented Coccaglio's mayor.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/20/italy-coccaglio-operation-white-christmas

---

If I recall correctly, the Pope during Mussolini and Hitler's rise found such behaviour "sad and distressing". He didn't do anything about it, of course, but he did find the time to be sad and distressed.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

1. "Operation White Christmas." The Italian fascists win the World Chutzpah Championship. Forever. -nt

[gaspee]

23. And the funny part?

Some white people (including my now deceased German-born (1930) grandfather) do not think Italians are "white" -

[CTyankee]

30. I have been tempted to tell my Italian American friends that when they start in

on "illegals." As a WASP, I have heard my fill of racist crap against anybody who isn't a WASP, so that takes in the Irish, too...

I sometimes tell them about how we WASPS in Dallas used to consider Italians "exotic." Which we did back in the day when Dallas experienced a big immigration of folks from New York to Dallas (in the 1950s).

[boppers]

50. It's odd how "white" tends to mean "me, and everybody lighter than me".

It's also kind of sad...

I'm quite happy to not be super-white, myself.

[Bette Noir]

2. How charming. Opening a concentration camp, just in time for Christmas.

[DeSwiss]

3. "I can't understand why no one likes me....."

"I just told the man that I liked his tan......"


- Right.

[harmonicon]

19. you beat me to it (nt)

[Posteritatis]

4. And Berlusconi sincerely called himself the most oppressed man in the world recently. (nt)

[Downwinder]

5. Is that where the Arpaios immigrated from? n/t

[Jefferson23]

6. Disgusting!

[wtmusic]

7. The Pope can't really do much of anything about anything . nt

[SpiralHawk]

11. Hell, Pope Ratzinger could revoke the Bull Inter Cetera

That would be a big step forward out of the dark ages.

http://ili.nativeweb.org/ricb.html

[DeSwiss]

13. I don't believe for one minute.....

...that the Pimpster Rattenburger would ever consider revocation of that bull in particular. Not after having said:

''The nations of Latin America and the Caribbean were silently longing to receive Christ as their savior. He was the unknown God whom their ancestors were seeking, without realizing it. Colonization by Spain and Portugal was not a conquest, but an adoption of the Indians through baptism, making their cultures fruitful and purifying them. Accordingly, the proclamation of Jesus and of his Gospel did not at any point involve an alienation of the pre-Columbian cultures, nor was it the imposition of a foreign culture.'' ~ http://www.counterpunch.org/jones05182007.html">Pope Benedict XVI

- Nope. Not one minute....

[Kelvin Mace]

18. Uh, yes he can!

A TRUE Christian, one faithful to the teaching of Jesus, would be IN THE STREETS opposing this, preaching against this, reaching out to the oppressed and chastising the oppressors.

If Pope Rat were to use the same tactics he used to push his own fascist agenda, he would threaten excommunication and withhold "Holy Communion" from anyone participating in, approving of, or supporting these scumbags.

But he doesn't, and that is what reveals his true character.

[Marthian]

24. A "true" Christian

would likely have nothing to do with the RC church. The pope is a charlatan and a dissimulator. He is likely a danger to male children.

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Ah, you are quite correct

though I think the church is dangerous to ALL children, and all men, women, cats, dogs, auroch and bovine livestock....

[Realityhack]

35. And you can claim the same about the POTUS

because congress passes the laws.
But here in reality both have incredible power.

Say the Pope didn't just say it was 'sad' but publicly denounced the action in the strongest terms possible with a full media press? Then let's say he ordered every catholic priest in the country to immediately go to the city in protest and went himself to be arrested for obstructing the plan. Maybe a global day of prayer to go along with it.
Meanwhile leaking that the Vatican was calling in consultants to review their plans to ensure they could evacuate religious relics and personnel should Italy once again become fascist and decide to seize the Vatican.

That wouldn't put any pressure on the Italian government at all. No no. The pope definitely has no power at all. I can't possibly imagine him influencing any politics anywhere much less in Italy.

I am not convinced that this is something the Pope should throw a lot of power behind. However, saying he "can't really do much about anything" is utter bullshit.

[Kelvin Mace]

40. Precisely!

In my view, if John Paul II was REALLY opposed to war, he would have set up camp in Baghdad, and preached against war, (and called for Saddam to treat his people fairly) before the U.S. attacked, and dared the U.S. to bomb. Who is going to tell him "no"? He's the freaking Pope.

That is called putting your money where your mouth is.

[wtmusic]

51. OK, give me an example of when the Pope has influenced

public policy since, let's say, 1600? :shrug:

[wtmusic]

52. Still waiting...

*crickets*

[Kelvin Mace]

54. Stupak amenndment

PArt of it lives in in the bill. Stupak, Nelson, Brownback et al, take their orders from the Bishops, who take theirs from the Vatican. The Vatican's Mau-Mauing politicians and Catholics certainly cost Gore in 2000. Can't prove it, but I believe that if Rome had gone after Bush in 2004 over Iraq the way they went after Kerry on abortion, then Kerry would be in his 2nd term.

[wtmusic]

56. John Paul II hit Bush much harder than Kerry

and it didn't do a damn bit of good.

"John Paul II stated before the 2003 war that this war would be a defeat for humanity which could not be morally or legally justified.

In the weeks and months before the U.S. attacked Iraq, not only the Holy Father, but also one Cardinal and Archbishop after another at the Vatican spoke out against a "preemptive" or "preventive" strike. They declared that the just war theory could not justify such a war. Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran said that such a "war of aggression" is a crime against peace. Archbishop Renato Martino, who used the same words in calling the possible military intervention a "crime against peace that cries out vengeance before God," also criticized the pressure that the most powerful nations exerted on the less powerful ones on the U.N. Security Council to support the war. The Pope spoke out almost every day against war and in support of diplomatic efforts for peace."

http://www.cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html

The Vatican has no political power. None.

[superconnected]

8. That sure gives a new spin to "White Christmas". Racism is ugly no matter what they call it.

[WriteDown]

10. Meh...

Illegal immigration is taken very seriously in Europe. Try being an illegal Turk in Germany. The manner and time they are doing this though is disheartening.

[DeSwiss]

26. "Illegal immigration is taken very seriously in Europe."

- I guess it's all in the timing, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanus_Pontifex">Romanus Pontifex is a papal bull written January 8, 1455 by Pope Nicholas V to King Afonso V of Portugal. As a follow-up to the Dum Diversas, it confirmed to the Crown of Portugal dominion over all lands discovered or conquered during the Age of Discovery. Along with encouraging the seizure of the lands of "Saracens, pagans ... and other enemies of Christ", it repeated the earlier bull's permission for the enslavement of such peoples. The bull's primary purpose was to forbid other Christian nations from infringing the King of Portugal's rights of trade and colonisation in these regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanus_Pontifex#America">Romanus Pontifex In America
The rights bestowed by Romanus Pontifex have served as the basis for legal arguments over the centuries. The logic of the rights of conquest and discovery were followed in all western nations including those that never recognised papal authority. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the 1823 case Johnson v. M'Intosh that as a result of European discovery and assumption of ultimate dominion, Native Americans had only a right to occupancy of native lands, not the right of title. This decision was upheld in the 1831 case Cherokee Nation v. Georgia, giving Georgia authority to extend state laws over Cherokees within the state, and famously describing Native American tribes as "domestic dependent nations." This decision was modified in Worcester v. Georgia, which stated that the U.S. federal government, and not individual states, had authority in Indian affairs, but it maintained the loss of right to title upon discovery by Europeans. In recent years, Native American groups including the Taíno and Onondaga have called on the Vatican to revoke the bulls of 1452, 1453, and 1493.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_caetera">Papal division of the New World

[WriteDown]

27. Geez...do I really have to preface that with MODERN Europe? nt

[DeSwiss]

28. Of course not....

...that excuses everything.

[Kelvin Mace]

34. This, in my opinion

has little to do with immigration, since I strongly doubt that they are asking white people to produce papers, only those of a dark complexion.

[PeaknikB]

38. No duh

The dark skinned people aren't native to Italy, they are obviously NOT Italians.

[Kelvin Mace]

39. Really?

Depends on your definition of "dark".

Again, my point is that they are not truly concerned about "illegal" immigrants, just non-whites.

[PeaknikB]

43. Southern Italians are not lily white

They are concerned about non Italians stealing jobs. It's not the job of Italians to take people in because Africa is a failed continent. It's no different than the Indians throwing out Bangladeshis.

[Kelvin Mace]

45. You are DEFINTELY

on the wrong web site.

[PeaknikB]

46. You are the one who brought up skin tone of Italians

Not me.

[Kelvin Mace]

48. As an observation to your comment

about "dark skinned" people being obvious foreigners.

At various points in American history, Italians were viewed as "greasy, dark-skinned foreigners".

[WriteDown]

9. What would you like the Pope to do?

Order a crusade?

[Kelvin Mace]

20. Nope!

As I said above, apply the same pressure to fascists that he applies to liberals. The would involve being doctrinally CONSISTENT, unlike his current policy of FORCEFULLY opposing abortion, but doing nothing but murmur platitudes against war and capital punishment.

"People who support abortion: NO sacraments for YOU!"

"Fascists, warmongers and death penalty enthusiasts: We are saddened and distressed."

[WriteDown]

22. doctrinally CONSISTENT?

Abortion is a sticky issue mainly because the Catholic Church views it as the destruction or innocence and capital punishment as the opposite. Shades of gray. I'm not sure how enforcing immigration laws is fascist, but as I've said in previous posts, the manner this is being done in is incorrect and hard to stomach.

[Kelvin Mace]

32. Yes, doctrinally consistent!

With due respect, the Church and the faith are founded on the death penalty being wrong. If Jesus had not been unjustly executed, "Christianity" would not exist. It is easy to simply look at some criminals who do commit crimes and deem them "worthy" of the death penalty, but having the death penalty for people who "deserve" glosses over the fact that mistakes will be made, and many innocent people will be executed. It also glosses over the question of how did this person arrive at this situation where they committed an act "worthy" of death. This NEVER happens in a vacuum, and is quite often the failure of society, the same society that now feels it can inflict the death penalty.

Your premise also assumes that all fetuses are "innocent", yet not a few grow up to be criminals, and even monsters like Stalin, Pol Pot, Dick Cheney, etc. Anti-abortionists like to profer the theoretical situation of a woman in dire straights with many strikes against her (previous children still-born, birth defects, VD, and a history of madness and alcoholism), ending with the question, "Should this woman abort her child?". When you inevitably answer in the affirmative, the trap is sprung, "Congratulations, you just aborted Beethoven!" This disingenuous example always fails to look at the converse example, the woman who is well fed, in good health, has a good husband and a decent position in society, with the same question posed about should that woman have an abortion. This would be answered in the negative, which then allows the trap to be sprung the other way, "Congratulations, you failed to abort Hitler!" (or Bill Clinton, if you wish to turn the knife on your conservative victim).

My point is that once we begin declaring one "life" more deserving of life/death we are working in the dark, and thus our decisions and morality are arbitrary.

I call for doctrinal consistency from an organization that professes to be pro-life (anti-abortion, anti-war, anti-death penalty, anti-euthanasia), to be pro-life in all these areas with EQUAL vigor, anything else is hypocritical.

Gandalf put it much more eloquently:

"Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment."

As to you comment:

I'm not sure how enforcing immigration laws is fascist, but as I've said in previous posts, the manner this is being done in is incorrect and hard to stomach.

First, it is not their job to enforce the law. Second, these people are not "enforcing immigration laws" they are attacking people they don't like, people they HATE. They are not checking the immigration status of white people, only non-whites. If you are not white, you must be an immigrant, and thus if you are not white, we can harass and intimidate you.

[Realityhack]

36. "the Catholic Church views it as the destruction or innocence..." Currently.

Their position is not constant.

[Kelvin Mace]

41. Coveniently, they get to presume innocence,

despite the fact that they have no clue how any given fetus will turn out.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

12. And I wondered who would buy a sign stolen in Poland

Sounds like the Italian Northern League would bid on it.

:hi:

[JustAnotherGen]

14. Terribly sad

I have so many good friends in Western Europe. Most are natives of their countries (i.e. not American Ex Pats) - and most are sickened by this type of activity.

Most significant are my 20-Something and early 30-something friends in France, Spain, and Italy. It's almost like they got away with their Facisms and Death camps in the late 30's and 40's - and thus . . . they get a free pass to re-engage in this behavior.

Detention camp? It's not only in Italy. Look up detention camps in Spain and France. Check out SOS Racisme in France. Look at who the leader of Austria is . . . There's a 'sickness' in Europe that should make this country of immigrants (since we all but annihilated our native souls)- pause and think about how we are treating our newcomers be they legal or illegal. Do we really want to be like Spain, France, Italy, Austria? I say no - now is the time to get as far away from them in our policies towards newcomers as we can.

Sorry for rambling - but I spned a great deal of time in Europe with a 'tan face'. . . I see difference between the late 90's and today in terms of people trying to figure out who I am and why I'm there prior to opening my mouth. ;-)

Not saying they are without issues themselves - but Republic of Ireland is this bright star in Europe. Other countries would be smart to follow their example - be it towards African or Eastern European Immigrants. :-(

[edc]

15. Just business. Nothing personal

The same economic interests that encourage cheap labor immigration to break unions and force down wages maintain the system by using xenophobia and the rule of law. They terrorize and deny civil rights to the their foreign wage slaves and direct the wrath of displaced native workers away from the palaces of finance and toward the alien ghettos.

[demoleft]

16. and the pope you refer to is about to receive beatification by ratzinger...

...current news in italy, the french jew community is upset and wants the pope-related documents available from the vatican/italy archives.

anyway, this operation "white christmas" is disgusting.
imagine our prime minister, after the aggression he suffered, stated that love always wins over evil.

he and his allies are again food for comedians. indeed, never stopped being.

ciao from italy.

[Kelvin Mace]

21. Actually,

I was referring to the current Pope. :)

Da dove vieni in Italia?

[demoleft]

25. oooops... :)

...i thought you referred to the pope of the time. hehe.

anyway, vengo dall'Abruzzo, sulla costa adriatica.
ciao!

:hi:

[Kelvin Mace]

33. Ah, molto bene!

Ho abitato in Svizzera (Muralto) quando era un bambino. No ho dimeticato tutta della questa bella lingua, ma e un peccato que ho poco probabilita a esercitarsi.

[Blue_Tires]

17. not a lot of subtlety in that title...

[Odin2005]

31. Damn my literal thinking, it took me a while to get the "White Christmas" thing.

Fascist freaks.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. I'm sorry

but are you on the right web sight?

[PeaknikB]

44. I am a realist

The world isn't some egalitarian place :)

I want the preservation of cultures and the environment. More people do not help the environment.

[Kelvin Mace]

47. Cultures change,

nations rise and fall. Change is the fundamental law of the universe. Attempting to stop change is futile, self-defeating, and by definition "unnatural".

Attempting to stop change by making scapegoats of a group of people (immigrants, Jews, Gypsies, gays, Irish, and yes even Italians) is pretty much what makes mass-murder a recurring theme in human history.

Italians (and Americans) who whine about "immigrants" stealing their jobs need to look to themselves to blame.

[PeaknikB]

49. Ah but they won't

That would be suicidal, we only need to look at history to see what will happen.

You are right, things are always in a state of flux, but unfortunately I believe the future is not going to be bright.

[fascisthunter]

53. never mix religion with politics

you always end up with totalitarianism... the two do not mix well at all.

[Kelvin Mace]

55. One always justifies the other

Religion teaches blind faith and mindless obedience, the perfect breeding ground for tyranny.

[fascisthunter]

57. You know the right wing here would love to impose the same shit

it doesn't matter where or what religion, extremists tend to share the same sychosis.