Catholic Group Supports Senate on Abortion Aid

[cal04]

Source: NY Times

In an apparent split with Roman Catholic bishops over the abortion-financing provisions of the proposed health care overhaul, the nation’s Catholic hospitals have signaled that they back the Senate’s compromise on the issue, raising hopes of breaking an impasse in Congress and stirring controversy within the church.

The Senate bill, approved Thursday morning, allows any state to bar the use of federal subsidies for insurance plans that cover abortion and requires insurers in other states to divide subsidy money into separate accounts so that only dollars from private premiums would be used to pay for abortions.

Just days before the bill passed, the Catholic Health Association, which represents hundreds of Catholic hospitals across the country, said in a statement that it was “encouraged” and “increasingly confident” that such a compromise “can achieve the objective of no federal funding for abortion.” An umbrella group for nuns followed its lead.

The same day, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops called the proposed compromise “morally unacceptable.”

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/26/health/policy/26abort.html?_r=1&hp

[PDJane]

1. Why is the opinion of the catholic church

relevant to this discussion?

[PSPS]

3. I'm with you. What is this? Iran? Our laws must pass muster with our own ayatollahs now?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proteus_lives]

11. Who else?

Who else secretly runs our nation? Freemasons? Druids? Walt Disney?

Come on, peel back the tinfoil a little and tell us.

Tell us quickly before "They" silence you.

[Wilms]

12. Did I say "secretly runs our nation? Freemasons? Druids? Walt Disney?"?

No. You did.

Nice try.

[saigon68]

27. They silenced him

Thus we "Missed" the message

[Kolesar]

4. they detemined the vote in Ohio in 2004

the Pope and high clergy could have kept their collective mouths shut, but instead they excommunicated John Kerry. A good man

[No Elephants]

18. I don't think Kerry was excommunicated. Someone suggested he not be given communion, but that is

not the same as exccommunication and was not an official position of the Church anyway.

I am not Catholic and I am not defending the Catholic Church in any way. Just trying to keep things factual.

[AngryOldDem]

31. Not so much Catholics, but the rural fundagelicals.

2004 was the year the gay marriage ban was on the ballot and the fundies came out in droves. Kerry was collateral damage.

[karynnj]

36. More likely it was the state of the supreme court and abortion

It was clear that there would be at least 2 appointments and as many as 4, even if he served just one term. Rhinquist was dying and Kerry would have replaced him with someone prochoice. (The reason it could have been 4 is that Stevens and any other on our side might have resigned as soon as it was clear that the Republicans had a good chance - if they did.)

As it is, Bush got in 2 - had Kerry been there their chances on outlawing abortion would have disappeared for decades.

[karynnj]

35. Kerry was not excommunicated

Some bishops, I think in Colorado and St Louis said that he should not be allowed communion, something his Boston and DC priests allow.

[defendandprotect]

15. Only because Pelosi had a meeting with US Catholic Bishops re Stupak Amendment...

and took phone call from "Rome" on the issue!!!

And because we should understand that the US Catholic Bishops/Rome are

acting in their own self interests in trying to regain control over human

sexuality and reproduction. Their own members ignore them on birth control

and abortion --

Catholic women have just as many abortions as any other women.

This is the church's effort to control their members and all of society by

seeking to make these services unavailable or illegal!

[customerserviceguy]

17. It wouldn't be

if we didn't have such a large proportion of our medical care being provided by Catholic hospitals.

This is an important break, the administrators of those hospitals know that the current system is badly broken, they're desperate for a compromise that they can live with that will provide funding for all of the sick people they end up treating for free right now.

Without some legal loophole allowing Catholic hospitals to avoid doing abortions, they would shut down, believe me on this. They love Stupak, but can live with Nelson.

[Zoeisright]

22. +1

Agree.

[ellie]

25. Exactly!

Who cares what the Catholic Church thinks? And I am Catholic, too.

[vadawg]

33. probuably because of the number of catholic voters, same as the unions or any other org involved

[rwheeler31]

2. I have no idea what they want.

the bosses and masses do not mesh.

[DeSwiss]

5. "....Catholic Bishops called the proposed compromise “morally unacceptable.”

- Irony is totally and utterly dead.

[saigon68]

28. Apparently its OK

and "morally acceptable" to have large hairy guys in clerical collars sodomize young boys.

[Hawkeye-X]

6. The doctrine keeping the separation of church and state must be firm

Or we all contact IRS to begin revoking ALL Catholic Church's tax exempt status until the Vatican signals that they will stay the fuck out of politics.

Hawkeye-X

[Rozlee]

8. And WE should, because it's obvious that the pussies that pass for our representatives

in government sure won't. Where's the sign up sheet? I want my name on it! Mine would be the only one in my family's and I'd be disowned because we were all raised Catholic, but the church needs to have a lawsuit bought against it. Where are Americans United for the Separation of Church and State when you need them? I sent those guys fifty bucks last year. They need to get on the ball and do something besides collect money.

[No Elephants]

19. What do genitalia have to do either with weakness or cowardice, or with courage or strength?

You obviously use "pussy" to mean weak or cowardly. Do you use "balls" to mean brave or strong, too? Will DUers ever stop perpetuating ender stereotypes with sexist language? If so, when? It's almost 2010, ffs.

[glinda]

9. I think that would be a good idea at some point to do it all together.

[happyslug]

10. So you want ot VIOLATE the First Amendment???

First READ THE FIRST AMENDMENT:
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Complete Text:
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

Notice it makes two statements as to religion, the first simple states that Congress will NOT establish any religion as a state religion, the second is the one applicable here "prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

There is NO ban on any religion seeking their religious objects through Congress, the ban is on CONGRESS doing anything that sets up a religion OR BAN ANY RELIGIOUS ACTIVITY (such activities INCLUDE lobbying). The tax exemption goes to ALL religions, to ban one till it "Stays out of Politics" is a clear violation of the First Amendment (The repeal of such exemptions, if done on a UNIVERSAL basis is probably constitutional, but then you have to include in the repeal of such "chartable deductions" would also have to include any donation to the organization for separation of Church and state. Probably also include most other chartable deduction for such deductions would be the result a belief (Even by an Atheist) that it is to the public good (Religion is more then a belief in God, it is a world outlook and how you believe society should be organized. Yes, this is a broad definition of "religion" but it is the best we can come up with given the wide view of organized religions let alone people who are NOT member of such religions.

[No Elephants]

20. That's one hell of a biased perspective.

First, the proper interpretation of the Establishment Clause is a matter of great controversyand has been since before the Constitution was adopted. So, please don't pretend that it is clear cut and simple.

Second, if it is unconstitutional for Congress (government) to favor one set of religious beliefs over another set--or, per the SCOTUS, if it is unconstitutional for government to favor religion over no religion, why is it perfectly okay--nay, a Constitutional right-- for Catholics to try to persuade Congress to do something unconstitutional?

Third, what part of the formal tenets of the Catholic religion requires imposing Catholic beliefs on a nation by enshrining them in secular legislation? I know of nothing. So, "free exercise" is not the issue--unless it is my right to be free of having live to in accordance with Catholicism, whether I want to or not.

Fourth, taking away a tax exemption is not about disabling folks from practicing their religion. No one is requiring the Church to allow abortion or forcing any Catholic to have an abortion. This is about which kinds of organizations are entitled to tax exemptions under Section 501(c)(3) and which are not. Political activist organizations, lobbyists, etc., are not entitled to the exemption. So, if the Catholic Church wants to function as a legislative lobby, giving the exemption to the Catholic Church, but not to other lobbyists gives the Catholic Church an unfair advantage. (The Church as an unfair advantage in fundraising anyway because organizations that raise money for pro-choice lobbying not only do not get tax exemptions, but cannot threaten peopole who don't donate with spending eternity in hell).

[defendandprotect]

14. We have a way to go...currently we're subsidizing Vatican's "faith-based" oganizations...!!

[defendandprotect]

13. Catholics are majority LIBERAL . . . they support government run health care 70%+

and whatever the majorities when you add Catholic Latino/Latina in, the majority

is higher -- !!!

Majority of Catholics also want CONTRACEPTION and ABORTION COVERED in any government

or private health plan -- ***



Catholics ignore church teachings on birth control -- and Catholic women have

just as many abortions as any other women --




*** Here's the specific breakdown on that --

Overall-Ctholics favor government or private coverage for
reproductive health care -- 73%/83%

Pre and post-natal care - 95%/97%

HIV AIDS testing -- 86%/92%

CONTRACEPTION -- 63%/67%

CONDOMS to prevent HIV/AIDS -- 51%/57%

AND GOVERNMENT OR PRIVATE COVER FOR ABORTION ....

-when a pregnancy threatens the life of woman -- 84%/87%

-when it results from rape or incest - 76%/80%

-when it poses long term health risks for woman - 73%-77%

when fetus has severe abnormal condition - 66%/71%

-when a woman and her doctor decide appropriate - 50%/53%

[williesgirl]

16. Kill their tax exempt status in the US and watch them shut up fast. Fuck em. rec'd

[No Elephants]

21. As always, people fail to distinguish between having an abortion and passing legislation

to make sure no one can ever have an abortion in the U.S. Some religions forbid abortion (just as they forbid adultery, masturbation, lying, gossiping, and a host of other behaviors that are prohibited by the Bible and many religions, but are not the subject of secular law. I don't care how loudly churches preach against abortion from the pulpit. But, when they try to impose upon me their particular interpretation of the Bible by making it the law of the land, I have to draw a line in the sand.

Mind you, I never had an abortion and doubt that I ever will. However, I firmly believe, with Jefferson, that there should be a wall of separation between church and state for the good of BOTH church and state.

[Lionel Mandrake]

30. Which religions prohibit lying and gossiping?

There are commandments in Exodus and Deuteronomy against bearing false witness, but surely this does not include all forms of lying or gossip.

[cal04]

23. Catholic Hospitals Endorse Senate Abortion Compromise

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/26/catholic-hospitals-senate-bill/

The Catholic Health Association — which represents hundreds of Catholic hospitals across the country — said said in a statement that it was ‘encouraged’ and ‘increasingly confident‘ that the abortion compromise in the Senate health care bill “can achieve the objective of no federal funding for abortion.’” The announcement represents a break from the the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ strong opposition to the Senate’s less stringent restrictions and provides critical political cover for pro-life Democrats who are hesitant to vote for a bill opposed by Catholic organizations. Under the Senate measure, women are required to purchase abortion services with private premiums and pay for the care with a separate transaction. States could also prohibit insurers in the exchange from offering abortion services.

The NYT explains the theological underpinnings of the endorsement:

“The Catholic Health Association seems to be using traditional principles of cooperation with evil,” said Prof. M. Cathleen Kaveny of the Notre Dame University Law School. Such principles, she said, could permit support for “imperfect legislation,” as long as one’s intent was not to “further abortion,” one made every effort to “minimize the harm,” and one achieved “an extremely important good that can’t be achieved any other way.”

In contrast, she said, “some bishops have adopted a prophetic stand against abortion that wants to eliminate any form of cooperation with evil no matter how remote.”

Catholic hospitals (like any hospitals) hope to minimize the number of uninsured patients who receive uncompensated care and achieve the “extremely important good” of expanding health care coverage to everyone. Earlier this month, Ellen-Marie Whelan and Jessica Arons analyzed the Catholic Bishop’s criteria “that they set as priorities to be included in health reform legislation” and concluded that health care reform meets these self-imposed goals:

As our analysis shows, there are a number of ways both bills would achieve the Bishops’ “pro-life” goals: they would save the lives of thousands each year, reduce the suffering of millions, and increase the dignity with which people are treated when ill. Moreover, providing quality health care to women and families in need is a much more effective and humane way to reduce the number of abortions than restrictions on funding ever have been. In the United States, as throughout the world, restrictions on abortion make the procedure more expensive and less safe; they do not make it less common.

The question before any pro-life Catholic organization is this: “Is it worth jeopardizing legislation that would provide nearly universal access to health care, improve quality, be much more affordable, assist the poor and low income, reduce fraud and waste, protect the conscience of providers, and so much more simply because it would preserve the status quo on public funding for abortion but not impose new restrictions on private coverage?” Fortunately, the Catholic hospitals have decided that it is not.

Rep. Bart Stupak (D-MI), meanwhile, has responded to the hospitals’ endorsement by reiterating his opposition to the Senate language, arguing that he has commitments from at least 10 Democrats who voted for House health care bill to oppose the final bill if it does not reflect the House bill’s compromise.

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/

[benld74]

24. They SUPPORT it because NOW, ANY,,,

problem pregnancies that do not go to full term CANNOT be admitted to a Catholic Hospital!
Back in 95, when we miscarried, we HAD to go to another hospital for my wife to go thru a D&C because SHE knew
our regular hospital WOULD NOT ALLOW the procedure.

[pnwmom]

29. I'm very sorry about your miscarriage. But you could have gone to a Catholic hospital

afterwards for a D & C. There's no reason they couldn't or wouldn't perform a D & C on a non-pregnant woman who needed one.

[AngryOldDem]

32. They'd still have to jump through hoops.

The hospital -- if it absolutely held to Catholic principle -- would still have to rule out pregnancy before doing a D&C, or any kind of gynecological procedure. Miscarriage is traumatic enough without having to go through that.

[pnwmom]

34. Any hospital would want to know exactly what they were dealing with --

whether there was still a pregnancy or not -- before doing a D & C.

And it's no big deal to do an ultrasound.

[mopinko]

26. THEY WANT THE MONEY!

sorry to yell. i almost never do. but this is about more insured => fewer charity cases at catholic hospitals. period.