Elite U.S. Force Expanding Hunt in Afghanistan

[Bozita]

Source: NYTimes

December 27, 2009
Elite U.S. Force Expanding Hunt in Afghanistan

By ERIC SCHMITT


BAGRAM AIR BASE, Afghanistan — Secretive branches of the military’s Special Operations forces have increased counterterrorism missions against some of the most lethal groups in Afghanistan and, because of their success, plan an even bigger expansion next year, according to American commanders.

The commandos, from the Army’s Delta Force and the Navy’s classified Seals units, have had success weakening the network of Sirajuddin Haqqani, the strongest Taliban warrior in eastern Afghanistan, the officers said. Mr. Haqqani’s group has used its bases in neighboring Pakistan to carry out deadly strikes in and around Kabul, the Afghan capital.

Guided by intercepted cellphone communications, the American commandos have also killed some important Taliban operatives in Marja, the most fearsome Taliban stronghold in Helmand Province in the south, the officers said. Marine commanders say they believe that there are some 1,000 fighters holed up in the town.

Although President Obama and his top aides have not publicly discussed these highly classified missions as part of the administration’s revamped strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, the counterterrorism operations are expected to increase, along with the deployment of 30,000 more American forces in the next year.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/world/asia/27commandos.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

[NJmaverick]

1. This sounds encouraging

Special forces can be most effective in these sort of conflicts

[rollin74]

2. yes

exactly what is needed

good news

[Bozita]

3. Sounds like exactly what was needed in late 2001.

Must have been too little "shock and awe."

[bhikkhu]

6. When you invade a country, its best to kill all the people who resist

or some logic to that extent. More specifically, when you invade an impoverished country on the other side of the planet its best to kill everyone there who objects quickly, so you can get on with the business of protecting there rights without interference. Or if you don't get them right away, you might have to bomb them while they are having dinner with their families, or talking to others in their villages, then you wind up with dozens of dead people. All of whom have families who then object to your invasion and who also then need to be killed...

Sorry to be a cynic, but this has been going on for close to ten years now.

[saigon68]

83. Winning Hearts one dead Grandmother at a time

Death Squads---

These fuckers are no better than Hitler's SS

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

86. That's absolutely absurd.

[saigon68]

87. Really-- Its wonderful there's an ignore feature--- Bye LOL

Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Afghan-Nam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Afghan-Nam
Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
Send 'em off before it's too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

88. Ignoring me won't change the fact that comparing U.S. special forces to the SS is whack.

But hey, if you're not here to actually discuss then adios.

[winninghand]

92. Death Squads...?

fuckers...?


Wow.

[Vehl]

4. Getting rid of the heavy corruption in the Afghan Gov might help more...

By allowing corrupt officials to have their way, we are shooting our own foot..especially in the "winning the hearts and minds" department...and ultimately its the public support that we need..

[PacerLJ35]

33. Corruption...you need to understand the culture

I worked with and advised Iraqis for a year, and I've been to Afghanistan (and know many people advising those folks). Corruption, unfortunately, is ingrained in their way of life. One thing I learned from my time in Iraqi is that people in that culture love to complain about corruption, and how Ahmed or Haitham got more than they got, or got kickbacks, etc. But honestly if they were in Ahmed or Haitham's shoes, they'd do the exact same thing. They love to complain, and they are what we (Westerners) would call "two-faced"....but in their culture it's normal...they look at it as saving face. They'll lie to the person next to you so they won't look bad.

I'm not trying to say their culture is good or bad, but it's extremely different from ours. Even after weeks of culture classes and a year working directly with the population, I still had plenty of moments of wanting to beat my head against the wall in frustration. If you're expecting ANYONE in that region to operate a government anywhere close to Western standards (that still has it's fair share of corruption), you'll be very disappointed.

[zanana1]

89. You have some interesting insight into the situation.

I'd like to hear more about the culture, because I think that's what bullets and bombs can't change.

[bhikkhu]

5. Death Squads

no disrespect to the armed forces in general as many in my extended family have served, but a death squad by any other name still does the same.

Its a crime and a farce, an indictment and utter hypocrisy. Perhaps one day we will have a government that prosecutes all this crap; if a repug ran on ending torture and secret imprisonment and extrajudicial killing, and on prosecuting those who did so, I'd vote for him (or her).

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

12. Death squads tend not to discriminate, killing large numbers of civilians in with their targets

So is that really a fair characterization?

[bemildred]

14. "Death squads" means you kill people you don't know from Adam

outside of formal combat situations because someone else tells you to go do it.

It excludes organized combat with an organized enemy force, but that is about it. Anything else is "death squads" and police state tactics, and like that. In other settings this sort of thing is labelled "terrorism", but when we do it then it's "elite troops" being "heroic".

[PacerLJ35]

25. What SOF does IS combat...

just on a smaller scale, and in a much more secretive fashion. They use the element of surprise. You can't use large maneuver forces in Afghanistan effectively because the enemy will know you're coming and by the time the US Army gets there, they're gone.

SOF forces don't just "hunt" anyone, they hunt high-value military targets or exploit weaknesses in the enemy's forces. SOF is doing both of those things in Afghanistan. If you think their operations are anything but organized, you're sorely mistaken because they are perhaps THE most organized, disciplined force the US has. They are waaaayyy more discriminatory than using the 82nd Airborne, etc. If you want an enemy mission planning cell taken out, use SOF. If you want the enemy's leadership taken out, use SOF. It's far less bloody than doing it the old fashioned way...

By the way, I don't think any military force "knows" their intended targets.

Finally, you seem to be comparing SOF to terrorists. Sorry, wrong again. Terrorists kill whoever happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time...kids, civilians, doesn't matter. If they are at the intended target area, they die. In fact, that's the GOAL of terrorists...kill as many innocents as you can to strike fear in the population. SOF is exactly the opposite of that. These guys are essentially the surgical tools of the military. They don't kill indiscriminately. They have specific targets that are mission-related. They don't kill just anyone...their targets have a direct hand in the enemy operations, period. The goal of SOF troops is to cut the enemy's achilles heel. They are nothing like state police gestapo squads, nor are they death squads. Terrorists do not operate in that fashion.

Your entire post smacks of ignorance. By the way, I know many who fly for our SOF units. They are among the best, and they are dedicated to our national security, not a political figure...

[bemildred]

38. Yeah, yeah, I can tell you feel a bit defensive about all this ... nt

[PacerLJ35]

40. Defensive? How about frustrated by the number of people willing to just make assumptions...

[bemildred]

42. You make assumptions, why can't anybody else make assumptions.

You made a boatload of assumptions about me and what I know.

[PacerLJ35]

45. Call it an educated guess...

Your characterization of Special Ops Forces was way off the marker. How many of these guys do you know? How often have you participated in a SOF operation? Can I guess zero or would that be too much of an assumption?

[bemildred]

50. But you don't in fact know shit about me except that I disagree with you.

So it is not an "educated guess", it's an attempt to smear people that don't agree with you. Your assumption is that if I disagree with you I must be ignorant.

[PacerLJ35]

51. Again, just tell me what experience you have and I'll say I'm wrong

I've worked with SEALs and Army SOF before. I know guys that fly for TF160, AFSOC, and various other organizations. Where's your experience/knowledge coming from? It's a simple question.

[bemildred]

56. You want to argue from authority and expertise.

It's an old game, I don't want to play. You can't just run around killing people in foreign countries on your own say-so and claim that you care a fig about law or accountability. Unless you have to get a warrant from a court of law, it's "death squads", and even then it is no slam dunk.

[PacerLJ35]

59. I didn't ask you about your authority...I asked you about your expertise and/or knowledge

As for your "warrant" idea, that's laughable. Afghanistan is a war zone, it's not freakin' downtown Detroit. We're looking for paramilitary guerilla fighters, not 18 year old gang bangers in your neighborhood. These guys possess plenty of RPG-7s, AK-47s, ZPUs, and a variety of other heavy weapons. So you're more than welcome to go get your warrant and serve them. Let me know how that works out for you.

[bemildred]

61. Laugh your ass off. Enjoy. Legal process is just a joke right?

Isn't that what we are SUPPOSED to be bringing to them? When do we start?

[PacerLJ35]

62. How many warrants did we serve after Normandy?

Just asking...did we go around and serve up all those Nazis with papers? Or did we just kick their ass across Europe and back into Germany? You seem to have the lines blurred between the civil law part (which is applied to US citizens and non-citizens engaged in civilian law enforcement actions) versus the laws of war. Look up the laws of war...find the part that says everyone is entitled to a warrant and due process.

[bemildred]

68. The laws of war forbid assassination squads, no? nt

[PacerLJ35]

70. In the sense of assassinating heads of state, et al...

Leading a small-scale attack of a mid-level al Qaeda leadership planning cell is well within the legality of the laws of war.

[bemildred]

41. I mean look, they themselves call it a "hunt".

What else do you need to know? Cowboys and Indians in the middle of Asia is what it is. It has diddly-squat to do with real warfare.

[PacerLJ35]

52. When you're looking for something that's hard to find, it's often called a hunt- nt

[bemildred]

54. And when you are hunting animals that's what it's called too.

What it is not, either way, is "combat".

[PacerLJ35]

55. Sigh...it's a figure of speech, jeez

And yes, it is combat. Again, what combat experience do you have to qualify that statement? Are Easter egg hunts now immoral because it's got the word "hunt" in it? I can see you already..."no kids, you shouldn't go hunt for eggs...that's what they call it when they hunt animals"...

[bemildred]

57. Right, words only mean what they say when you say so.

If it was combat, they could call it an "assault" or an "offensive" or something, except this is just some guys in a hovel somewhere, and you don't want to give them any credibility by using the language you would use for peers.

[PacerLJ35]

60. You're missing the point

The 3rd Infantry Division conducts an assault or offensive. SOF conducts "operations", and they "hunt" for the little hideaways where the enemy leadership plans larger attacks. It's just the language of the community. If you were to tell anyone in the military to have SEAL Team 4 "conduct an offensive" on the enemy, they'd look at you sideways, because that's not what they do. What they do (I'm guessing maybe one more stab at explaining it to you might catch your eye) is while larger units like the 101st or a MAGTF conduct offensive operations, the SOF teams seek out the leadership nodes and/or other weak points in the enemy infrastructure and they take those weak points out, making it harder for them to adequately lead/plan/respond to the larger allied offensive.

We've been doing these types of operations since WWII, we did them against Hitler in Europe.

[EFerrari]

63. Right. They were extra judicial then and they're extra judicial now.

[PacerLJ35]

66. Wrong...they are bound by the laws of warfare and Geneva just like everyone else

[EFerrari]

76. You have your history backward.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

81. How so?

[bemildred]

64. Bah.

People have been blowing our asses up with IEDs for a long time too, that doesn't make it right. You play dirty, you get dirty back. You cannot compare a bunch of 3rd world peasants with the Wehrmacht, and it is depressing to me to see the US military stoop to considering them credible foes. We have become far too fond of playing video war with our high-tech toys, I dunno what's going to happen if we get in a real war after all this bullshit. I thought we would learn something from Vietnam, but no, here we are again.

Look, you sound like a serious professional soldier, or something like that, I don't want to be disrespectful, anymore than I already have, I just fundamentally disagree with you that what we are doing in AfPak is right or sensible, and I predict that it will not work out well at all. I am going to leave it here. Perhaps we can find other things to discuss where we do not so disagree.

[PacerLJ35]

69. Not everything is "video war"

Believe it or not, in the past year since Obama took office, bombing in Afghanistan has become exceedingly rare. Aircraft used to return to base empty of ammo but often times these days they return still fully laden with bombs due to the very (very) restrictive ROE. Much of the fighting done by SOF forces (SEALs, D-Boys, etc) is very physical and very "in your face" fighting. The enemy may not be sourced and outfitted like the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS, but they are very organized and many (particularly the al Qaeda-backed guys) follow an ideologically-based common goal. I'm not saying they are exactly like German soldiers, but they are an organized enemy army opposed to any meaningful democratization of their nation, and some (not all) follow the concept of using Afghanistan as a base for attacks on the west.

I am not a professional soldier, I'm a pilot who used to be in the Army long ago. Regardless of what I do, I know many people who are SOF operators, and I've worked with them. They are very disciplined, they work towards a specific objective, they are violent but in a very focused way (in other words they don't just walk through the country side murdering people). Most of all, they respect our country and what it's supposed to stand for. You'll always have a few individuals that stray from that model, but by and large that's who those guys are. If anyone is going to cripple al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan to allow our conventional forces and international assistance a fighting chance to work, they will.

[bemildred]

71. FWIW:

I am not a soldier, I've known a few SOF people, some I'm related to, some I worked with, and lots of ordinary military people, I've a couple decades in "defense related" work, and I read a lot of history.

My disagreement is fundamental, so pointing out that our military people are dedicated and professional, according to the way they are trained, which I already know, does not address it. I think pigs will fly before anything good, let alone worthy of the cost, comes of this dirty war.

[PacerLJ35]

72. Then that's you're opinion...

...but you are technically incorrect regarding the judicial aspects of the operations. I respect your opinion...not everyone thinks this war is worth fighting. I feel it is, but then again I have my own background and experience to fall upon (and I'm a huge history buff myself).

[bemildred]

73. It is all somebodies opinion, true.

I am not alone in my opinion about the "judicial aspects of the operations" either.

Only time will tell. "Combat creates clarity", or something like that ...

[PacerLJ35]

75. When it comes to the legality of the operations, it's pretty much spelled out

You or somebody else mentioned Geneva, laws of war, et al...those conventions exist for a reason. You can have your opinion about whether they are correct in their current form, but as it stands today, SOF is perfectly legal to conduct small-scale raids on high-value targets. By high-value I don't necessarily mean high-ranking people.

[bemildred]

65. Dupe. nt

[saigon68]

84. Are you still here?

You are definitely in the wrong place

[bemildred]

90. Hey Saigon.

Another year in the can, eh?
:hi:

[saigon68]

94. You Bet

And more visitors from Freeptard LAND pumping up the Corporate War for JayZeus and other mystery adventures in Afghan-Nam

[bemildred]

96. Yep, we could run a heck of a fertilizer factory with what we got here. nt

[Dogtown]

97. Fighting soldiers from the sky

Fearless men who jump and die....



*Got* to be your favorite jingoistic jingle, neh?

[bhikkhu]

17. Death Squads tend to discriminate

killing the targets they are sent to kill, and anyone else who gets in the way. Secrecy is important, so killing witnesses is normal, unless one wants witnesses to live as agents of coercive fear.

Needless to say, this is all beyond the bounds of the Geneva Convention on legal warfare. It is more or less the "unpersoning" and summary execution of any civilian or paramilitary group, at the discretion of field commanders protected by the traditional wartime secrecy. Afterwords we might hear about big graves, hidden bodies, the disappeared, mass graves, etc.

Its nothing new, its just bigger and smells worse from here, as it is us and not Pinochet, Saddam, Stalin, or however the list of bastards goes...

[PacerLJ35]

26. SOF units are NOT the same as gestapo-style units of Stalin, Pinochet, et al

Please do some reading. These guys operate only to further military objectives, not practice terror-style tactics or political killings.

[bhikkhu]

30. I guess it might go back to how bogus you think the military objectives are

It goes without saying, I don't see anything good coming out of our war in Afghanistan. Nothing good for us, nothing good for them. The longer it goes on the more bloodthirsty it gets.

Aside from that, extrajudicial execution is considered a war-crime according to the Geneva Convention, so squads formed for the purpose of extrajudicial execution are not really something I'd be cheering about. It just speaks to how far we have moved from the standards of past wars which I always thought were murderous enough already.

[PacerLJ35]

32. They aren't there for "extra-judicial" purposes...

SOF in Afghanistan has the sole purpose of finding and disrupting al Qaeda/Taliban cells. They've been doing this since 2001. By the way, have you been to Afghanistan and worked with the Afghans at all? Just curious.

[bhikkhu]

37. No, I haven't

and my primary concerns are human rights, which are the first thing to go out the window in war. Hence, the Geneva Conventions regulating the behavior of parties involved.

Its well worth reading up on, and there's a great deal of good information and links to good information here.

The more you look at it the more you realize that those conventions are nearly impossible to follow in this conflict, which is one more reason to let it go. It is one bit of utter stupidity to think that we can commit crimes and injustices in someone elses country and they'll be ok with it because we say its ok - literate or not, a sense of justice is one human universal.

But with that said, I don't have anything else to say on this thread. This stuff has been around long enough that nobody's minds are likely to change now.

[PacerLJ35]

39. I have to take annual training on Geneva...

so it's not an unfamiliar subject to me. I'm quite sure the SOF guys have to go through similar training, in addition to ROE training.

[Gregorian]

16. I agree.

It's a military party. Using free money from all of us who pay taxes.

Instead of introspection, we punish.

If we really looked at the causes of why people do not like America, we'd find the problem is us.

[cliffordu]

22. Complete bullshit.

You don't know a death squad from your ass.

[bhikkhu]

28. I'm guessing that you consider the Geneve Conventions a quaint relic

"Common Article 3 of the four Geneva Conventions lists prohibited acts by parties to the convention. Such acts are-

* Violence to life and person, in particular, murder, mutilation, cruel treatment, and torture.
* Taking of hostages.
* Outrages against personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.
* Passing out sentences and carrying out executions without previous judgment by a regularly constituted court that affords all the official guarantees that are recog-nized as indispensable by civilized people.
* The provisions in the above paragraph represent a level of conduct that the United States expects each foreign country to observe. "

clipped from "US Special Forces counterinsurgency manual analysis"

[PacerLJ35]

31. SOF doesn't equal operating outside the bounds of Geneva...

If you want to consider a SOF unit raiding an al Qaeda/Taliban planning cell and killing the members defending their facility "murder", then I guess you got 'em there. If you consider taking the survivors prisoner (POW in my book) as a "hostage" situation, again you seem to have nailed it. Sentencing, executing and/or otherwise degrading the enemy by SOF forces is well outside their mission. They don't have the time to deal with that even if they wanted to.

[cliffordu]

35. Well....They are fighting in a theater of war.....

killing enemy combatants.

Your posit is bogus.

Nice try, play again!!

[saigon68]

95. Quaint Lynndie Leash Treatment

THIS SHOULD QUALIFY AS-------

*Outrages against personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.

[Don Caballero]

7. We must defeat the Jihadist Extremists in Af/Pak

It is so refreshing to have a Commander in Chief who gets it.

[Flaneur]

8. And then we can go after Eastasia. And then Eurasia.

Perpetual war, with its perpetual bogey men.

[Don Caballero]

11. 1984 was fiction.

Quit with the conspiracy nonsense.

[bemildred]

9. "Elite" my ass. "Death squads" is what they are, and it is what they should be called. nt

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

13. Nonsense

Death squads would eradicate entire villages they feel are sympathetic to the enemy.

[bemildred]

15. Death squads kill people outside combat situations, the number killed is not the issue.

Death squads hunt people down and kill them, as in this case.

[boppers]

20. Outside combat situations?

Are you seriously contending that there isn't a combat situation in the AfPak theater?

[daleo]

21. I recall "free-fire zones" from the Viet Nam era

You seem to be implying that all of Afghanistan and Pakistan be considered free fire zones.

[PacerLJ35]

27. What's your point? You don't seem to know the difference...

"Free fire" zones are used to designate an area that's considered hot...ie, anything that moves in that area can be considered hostile and you're free to engage in it.

SOF units don't operate that way. They are very specific on what their objectives are. Read my other posts, but essentially SOF units exist to either disrupt enemy operations, take down enemy leadership, or exploit some other enemy weakness. They do not roam the country side shooting at anything/everything...that defeats the purpose of their existence. You can do that with "conventional" forces.

[Bozita]

29. Welcome to DU, PacerLJ35!

You've landed in a DU free fire zone.

[PacerLJ35]

34. Thanks

I've been on this board before, a while back. Yes, I'm well aware of the rampant lack of knowledge with regard to military operations or even military people on this board.

I'm far more liberal than many other vets/service personnel, but I don't consider myself a socialist or atheist. Even so, sometimes a board like this could use a "devil's advocate" or even an occasional "you have no idea what you're talking about" post...

[boppers]

36. Welcome to DU!

There's a lot of ignorance here about military and intelligence matters, and only a few folks on here to help sort it all out. Hope to see more from you, as you seem to have some knowledge on the topic.

[PacerLJ35]

49. Thanks

I'm not a SOF operator, but I've known plenty and worked with them before.

[daleo]

43. The point is that this justifies lawless warfare

Anyone at any time can be killed with impunity, given this reasoning. Special Forces and their superiors become a law unto themselves. Sure, they don't kill everyone - just those they are ordered to execute based on whatever intelligence the CIA or other agency might have (very possibly obtained via torture). And if innocents happen to be in the area, they are just collateral damage.

A democracy that makes this a keystone of its foreign policy is a democracy in name only - it doesn't fundamentally believe in human rights. And it's not that big a step from killing foreigners to killing domestic political enemies.

[bemildred]

44. Well said, this is just lawlessness with a thin veneer of procedural bullshit. nt

[PacerLJ35]

48. Veneer?

Please, explain to me the "procedural" part of what SOF has to do and how they are accountable. I'm waiting.

[PacerLJ35]

46. You act like they have zero oversight and just go work on their own...

They don't. They have a chain of command and it's watched by a number of people, including elected officials. Just because you aren't privy to every move they make doesn't mean someone isn't.

[boppers]

74. The fear, based on past missions... (and hollywood)...

...is that units will break out of command and control, and become indiscriminate kill squads.

Looking at historical central american operations, with mostly foreign nationals, (that were sometimes funded by the US), tends to freak people out.

After being freaked out, they tend to equate all special forces teams as the same.

[PacerLJ35]

77. Central America was a good lesson...

which is something we're finding out in Iraq as well. You can train till you're blue in the face, but in the end, the foreign military is a distinctly independent operation and they will do what they want to, regardless of what the US wants them to do. Surprisingly enough, the US military did not train central american militaries how to go around and murder priests and other folks. Same is going on in Iraq...talking to the legal advisors, they had plenty of bruises from beating their heads against the wall. I participated in an aircraft accident investigation and we trained them how to do it "our way", which is focus on the cause of the incident and avoid finger pointing and blame until afterwards. They promptly ignored us and said "it was the pilot's fault". Great, but why did he screw up? How can you prevent it in the future? Was there any systematic or institutional shortcomings that set the pilot up for failure? All those questions they ignored, all they wanted to do was find out "who done it" and slam them to the wall. But...it's how they do things.

Back to central america...yes, we tried to train them to be a "professional" military (ie, service to the nation was a higher calling than service to an official, etc), but in the end they regressed and social/cultural norms took over. No matter how you want to sugarcoat it, that's how things are done in that part of the world...even the rebels did it too (murdering enemies, etc). Basically we tried to do something right hoping our culture and norms would take root, but all they did is go home better armed and better prepared to slaughter their political rivals. They had little interest in North American-style democracy or civil society...and if we don't watch it, the same is at risk in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

In advisor training we were constantly cautioned to avoid "mirroring", in other words, to avoid seeing them as us, and to avoid thinking that they think like us...because they don't.

The primary reason why SOF units are tied to "death squads" is because certain elements of the Army Special Ops regiments (Green Berets) as well as portions of what is now Air Force Special Ops Command (AFSOC) participated in the 1980s training of Latin American militaries...and after we felt we had trained them the best we could, we set them out on their own and they did what they would have done anyways, only with better training...big time face palm for the US, and a very big disappointment for the US special ops advisors.

Be aware, though, that those advisor teams within the Green Berets are not the same thing as the SEAL, D-Boy, Ranger and TF-160 guys. Those SOF teams have specific mission that are oriented towards the larger picture of defeating the enemy through direct combat action. If they hide their planning/communication nodes from us, then we go find them to disrupt and disorganize them. That's what these teams do.

[boppers]

78. Some reading from another perspective:

http://www.soaw.org/

Those opposed to *any* intervention on DU are pretty militant.

The irony is not lost on folks who see it differently.

[daleo]

79. What happens when something goes disastrously wrong?

What happens when intelligence sends a hit squad to the wrong house and innocent people are killed? Does anyone in the chain of command go to jail? Do any politicians?

Did Bush suffer any consequences for his illegal invasion of Iraq?

Of course not. It's a closed circle, so they would all cover for each other, from big things like illegal wars to small things like death squads and bombing runs that kill whomever they happen to kill.

The lesson of history is that it's hard to keep things from spiraling out of control once you have normalized extra-judicial executions. It saps a democracy's moral underpinning and political legitimacy.

[boppers]

80. Well, if you don't believe that people aren't disciplined...

... I have a unicorn to sell you.

[daleo]

93. So you believe in perfect discipline?

If so, I think you must have a lot of imaginary unicorns to go along with that delusion.

[bhikkhu]

19. I'm sure there are some villages there as small as 30 people. n/t

[davepc]

10. Somebody at the Times needs to find their AP Style Guide. it SEALs it's an acronym.

[Doctor_J]

18. And big Media continues to smooth things out for war profiteers

After reading this I really feel great about spending another 50 billion dollars in Afghanistan :puke:

What a fucking joke this country has become.

[tabasco]

23. What we should have been doing instead of invading Iraq.

The corrupt Bush cabal put corporate profits ahead of national security.

[Doctor_J]

24. Yes, you would think they could have sanctioned Saddam for a lot less

than a trillion dollars, but then Smirk wouldn't have been a TV star

[PacerLJ35]

47. I agree...

Although I have served in Iraq four times, and I did my job to the best of my ability there, I personally wondered why in the world were we shifting so much focus to Iraq while the 9/11 conspirators and planners were escaping in Afghanistan. I felt going into Iraq would only serve to derail the real mission, which it ultimately did (hence why we're having to put so much focus on Afghanistan now, 8 years later).

[winstars]

53. FINALLY!!!!

Like someone, said this is what we stopped doing in like '03; sending all the cool cats to look for WMD's that were not there!!!! Why not let our guys give it a REAL shot for a year or so and then if it's still totally fucked there, start to split in 18 months. Some of our best boys and girls will definitely get killed in the next 18 months doing this. And I feel real sorry for them and their families but they are volunteer's and have joined while we are at war, unlike say someone who joined in 2000 to go to college or learn a skill.It seems to me that at least some of these kids are joining up to shoot guns and kill things... and If not for the Chimp and his antics we would be fucking out of there by now anyway!!!!!!!!! This story does have a sort of smell of, what was it in "Nam, "Operation Phoenix, you know killing the VC leaders and shit (the supposed leaders or maybe just your hamlet rival, Oops) To me, lets see how they do and if they don't accidentally murder too many women or children, maybe it will help us get the fuck out of that shit hole called Afghanistan a little sooner......

And Hey to Pacer for the excellent inside knowledge that he has enlightened us with, thanks brother man...

[Vidar]

58. They've sent Cheney in?

[bemildred]

67. LOL.

:thumbsup:

[Bragi]

82. That changes everything. Not.

[saigon68]

85. Things are slow at Christmas at Freeptard Land

Looks like they sent over a couple of Rimjob clones to liven things up over here

Bring it on ass holes.

[madokie]

91. When you take one out another pops up

stop the policies that are making the people hate us so. Until that is done no chance of any peace ever.