Chavez Says Colombia Preparing to Attack ‘Fake’ Venezuelan Base

[denem]

Source: Bloomberg

Dec. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Colombia is preparing to attack Venezuela in an operation that will be made to look like the objective is a base of Colombian guerrillas, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said today in a speech to troops that was shown on state television. Colombia is building a “fake” base to justify the assault, Chavez said.

Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=adNsILAw6xdo

---

Not a Hugo fan (at all) but why I am reminded of the Polish 'attack' on Germany that started WWII?

[Way2go]

1. Because it's the same thing.

"why I am reminded of the Polish 'attack' on Germany that started WWII?"


btw- In your opinion, is Chavez a demented dictator fixated on ruling the world - even at the expense of ignoring the needs, wants,
problems, hopes, and aspirations of his own fellow citizens? You'd say so, if you really felt that way, right?

[denem]

2. I think you missed the point : 'BUT why'

And where in hell did I spout anything like "In your opinion, is Chavez a demented dictator fixated on ruling the world - even at the expense of ignoring the needs, wants, problems, hopes, and aspirations of his own fellow citizens?"

[Way2go]

3. In other words you don't like him, but you don't hate him, either?

Is that what you meant?

[denem]

4. I'm neither a fan or a hater, but this story I don't dismiss at all.

It's so out there, Venezuela probably has some hard intelligence. That's my the point.

[lsewpershad]

8. If and when it

does happen trolls would be sure to suggest that Chavez did it himself to make it look like the Uribe/US did it.

[denem]

9. That won't fly. But Columbia bombing it's own base is so off the wall

it rings true. Milo !!!

[EFerrari]

14. They dress up peasants they kill in FARC uniforms.

:shrug:

[ronnie624]

18. Not Columbia's "own base",

but a fake FARC base, just inside Venezuelan territory: Chavez said “it wouldn’t be strange” for the Colombian military to build some shacks in an improvised camp and put some rifles and propaganda in it.

[denem]

19. Well, to the extent Columbia puts together a fake base, they OWN it.

[ronnie624]

20. The Colombians can't "own" it if it's in Venezuelan territory.

But ownership isn't the issue, making it appear as though the Venezuelan government is harboring the FARC is.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

35. Seems like a pre-emptive effort to cover for any strikes on the FARC that Colombia does conduct

on Venezuelan soil.

[AlphaCentauri]

47. Or a Colombian effort to justified the invasion of it's territory

with US troops.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

57. As I said, I need more than Chavez's say-so before reaching such a conclusion.

Let's see some evidence, until then, Chavez is blowing hot air.

[AlphaCentauri]

62. There are evidence that Colombia is turning its sovereignty to the US forces

and there are no evidences that Venezuela will invade Colombia

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

75. A few questions

First, there's no doubt that Colombia is receiving vast amounts of U.S. military aid and that the U.S. is gaining more access to Colombian military bases, however, is that alone proof that "Colombia is turning its sovereignty to the U.S. forces"? Last I checked, Colombia is still making its own decisions.

Secondly, Chavez's claim is pretty outrageous and will undoubtedly further strain tensions between the two countries. Since that's the case, he has an obligation to back up his claim with evidence. He's failed to do that. Thankfully, it seems only the Chavez die-hards on this board are overlooking that...

[AlphaCentauri]

89. Andres Pastrana has accused Uribe of signing secret pacts

the ex president must know Colombia and its government to make those such assertions.

http://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/ElFinanciero/Portal/cfpages/contentmgr.cfm?docId=80879&docTipo=1&orderby=docid&sortby=ASC

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

33. I'm not one to hope Venezuela has hard intelligence

I'm asking to SEE IT. Until then, Chavez is just blowing hot air as far as I'm concerned.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

32. And, of course, he presented EVIDENCE to back up his claims right?? Oh wait...

[Judi Lynn]

34. True assholes manufacture evidence. George W. Bush comes to mind. n/t

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

36. Surely you'd like to see some evidence?

Or are you one of those "politicians can be taken at their word - when I LIKE THEM!" folks?

[Judi Lynn]

40. I was not elected by a large majority to lead Venezuela.

It doesn't matter what you, sitting on your ass in the U.S. "want" to see.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

58. Surely you, as a reasonable human being, want to see evidence

before swallowing such odd accusations whole.

It's weird to me that people realize the importance of being skeptical of what politicians say within the United States, but somehow forget it when it comes to political leaders in other countries. I get it. You like Chavez. That's wonderful and all, but at the end of the day, he's still a politician and you should still be cautious of the claims he makes. It's common sense.

[enid602]

5. Hugo

Venezuela´s daily reality is gas shortages, rolling brownouts, water shortages, etc. Hugo desperately needs to invent foreign threats to divert the populace´s attention from his administration´s shortcomings. Doubt if it will work over the long term.

[denem]

6. A pretext for WAR, that's what this is about, not Economics.

Attacking a base that you've built yourself is just so preposterous, it reminds me of too many other precedents in history. Or just plain Catch 22 if you like.

[dipsydoodle]

7. You appear to be acknowledging

that Hugo controls the weather given their water shortages. Perhaps you'd enlighten us all on how you believe he is able to do so.

[enid602]

11. Hugo

As of late the country has not really been able to attract foreign investment needed to build needed infrastructure in water strorage/processing, electric utilities, petroleum refineries, etc. Can´t imagine why.

[EFerrari]

13. Really?

UPDATE 1-China, Venezuela raise investment fund to $12 bln
09.24.08, 5:37 AM ET

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2008/09/24/afx5463361.html

Venezuela, Japan start joint investment fund
http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/615344

Venezuela, Russia Plan $20B Investment
http://iinews.com/Articles/2294309/Emerging-Markets/Top-Stories/Venezuela-Russia-Plan-20B-Investment.aspx

Brazil Senators Approve Venezuela Entry Into Mercosur (Update1)
By Maria Luiza Rabello

Dec. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Brazil’s congress approved Venezuela’s admission to Mercosur, South America’s biggest trade bloc, as the Senate turned aside arguments that President Hugo Chavez had made his country ineligible by smothering democracy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aKMncefxQsq4

You must be thinking of some other Venezuela.

[enid602]

21. China

Then why has China, Venezuela´s biggest creditor agreed to lend Chavez money only when it is collateralized by US-based assets owned by Citgo, a sub of PDVSA?

[EFerrari]

22. But your claim was that foreign investment has been chased away

And not only is that not true, joining Mercosur will give Venezuela more leverage.

[enid602]

24. Mercosur

Chavez has been denied Mercosur membership five times in the past. This is his sixth attempt. Mercosur is a tiny trading bloc that won´t add a good deal to Chavez´prestige. It will offer Venezuela entry into a market that is not likely to buy Venezuelan goods (they have always bought Venezuelan petroleum), but will not garner Venezuela international investment.

[EFerrari]

26. Venezuela has joined Mercosur and I already showed

your claim about foreign investment is inaccurate.

[ChangoLoa]

103. Venezuela hasn't joined Mercosur yet, dear expert

What you showed is that Brazil voted yes. There's still Paraguay's vote to come.

[cartach]

28. Great post !

[laughingliberal]

92. +1 nt

[laughingliberal]

93. +1 nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. His penchant for nationalization is not helping things either

[AlphaCentauri]

45. Well he is not bailing out banks and insurances, he is purchasing them

nationalization sounds a little bit to grotesque and misleading to the American public

[Way2go]

10. Sounds like someone else "desperately" needs to demonize

Venezuela's ongoing struggle to overcome fortyleven years of rule by oligarchs. They wouldn't be having these kinds of challenges
if it weren't for Chavez. And maybe some outside "assistance" in destabilizing their economy and government.

[enid602]

12. Venezuela

The oligarchs were the worst; they sucked out every cent they could, and invested the funds in Miami. Poor Venezuela. What a history. Vacillating between oligarchs and Hugo. They need a Lula or a Tabare.

[EFerrari]

15. There is no need for an oil rich Latin American country to INVENT foriegn threats.

[paulk]

55. don't forget the 30% inflation rate

[Mudoria]

16. So exactly why would Colombia want to attack Hugo?

Oil? Venezuela sells oil to them without any problems. Other than that Venezuela has nothing anyone else would want. Why waste money taking it when they sell it you already? I don't see any reason for it. OTOH, I could see Chavez dressing some FARC folks in Colombian uniforms and attacking it. With major economic problems and increasingly falling popularity he needs something to rouse the peasants. What better than to cook up some "outside" force getting ready to attack Mother Venezuela to excite the gullible?

Nothing to see here...

[EFerrari]

17. Not quite.

Colombia Growth in 2010 May Be Cut by Venezuela Trade (Update1)
December 28, 2009, 12:12 PM EST

(Adds Zuluaga comment in third paragraph.)

By Helen Murphy and Andrea Jaramillo

Dec. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Colombian Finance Minister Oscar Ivan Zuluaga said Venezuela’s move to freeze trade between the countries will reduce economic growth next year.

Exports to Venezuela may fall by about half to $2 billion next year, Zuluaga said today in an interview in Bogota. Exporters are diversifying by sending more goods to Mexico, Peru, Central America and the Caribbean, Zuluaga said.

“The government’s basic premise is that Venezuela’s economic problems will continue and the exports will remain below what they reached in recent years,” Zuluaga said. “This is the most realistic outlook.”

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez in July pledged to end imports from his neighbor in retaliation for a deal to allow U.S. armed forces access to seven Colombian military bases. Exports to Venezuela, which account for about 15 percent of Colombia’s sales abroad, fell 70 percent in October from a year earlier.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2009-12-28/colombia-growth-in-2010-may-be-cut-by-venezuela-trade-update1-.html

[Mudoria]

23. I guess Hugo will have to come up with a way to feed people then

since they import quite a sizable portion of their food supply from Colombia. I'm sure Hugo doesn't miss any meals by the looks of him.

[EFerrari]

25. Colombia is going to find itself more and more isolated in the region

as they continue to collaborate with predatory US policy while their narco state spins further and further out of control. The network progressive leaders have built up in recent years will make Uribe irrelevant.

Poor Colombia. So far from god in the pocket of the empire.

[AlphaCentauri]

27. Uribe's Colombia is just acting as instructed

Colombia in 1 year could end the guerrilla and retract all military operations and personal to their bases but wait they need the money that is poor into their economy from drugs and military services to the US government.

[laughingliberal]

95. +1 nt

[Peace Patriot]

30. Some comments here are so out of touch with the realities of the Venezuela/Colombian situation

that I would like to repeat a couple of things:

1. Venezuela has fair, honest and transparent elections--in fact they have a system that is far, FAR more transparent than our own--and their elections have furthermore been certified by every major international election monitoring group. The people of Venezuela have supported the Chavez government, with big mandates, in every election that Chavez has run for president, and most other elections (legislative elections, issue elections, etc.). Venezuelan voters are not stupid. They've had plenty of time to evaluate Chavez policies and Chavez himself and they greatly approve of both. The Chavez government furthermore has policies to maximize citizen participation in government, and has given high priority to equality for the indigenous, for African-Venezuelans, for women, for gays and other previously excluded groups. Finally, the Chavez government has had a significant impact on poverty and illiteracy--and has instituted programs for free and easy-to-access medical care for the poor, free education through college, grants/loans for small businesses and coops, land reform and numerous other efforts to bootstrap the poor and create an educated, skilled, equitable society, as well as aiding development in the region. And they have done all this WHILE accumulating $43 billion in international cash reserves, and overseeing sizzling economic growth for the previous five years (2003-2008)--a 10% economic growth rate, with the most growth in the private sector (not including oil!).

2. Colombia, by contrast, has a government, military and closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads, who have murdered thousands of union leaders, small peasant farmers, human rights workers, teachers, community organizers, political leftists, journalists and others, with almost zero prosecution for these murders. In Colombia, if you lift your head in opposition to this brutal, fascist government, you risk getting it shot off. Further, Colombia has an immense crisis in displaced poor people, mostly peasant farmers. Human rights groups estimate that there are three million displaced peasant farmers and other poor people in Colombia--driven off their lands mostly by the Colombian military and its death squads and U.S. "war on drugs" toxic pesticide spraying. Tens of thousands of these displaced people have fled across the borders into Venezuela and Ecuador, creating immense problems for these governments, because, a) unlike Colombia, the social justice governments of Venezuela and Ecuador feel obliged to take care of people; and b) chaos in the border areas, making it very difficult to control illicit traffic, and to keep Colombia's military, its death squads and its FARC guerillas out.

3. The U.S. is larding Colombia with $6 BILLION of U.S. taxpayer dollars in military aid--to a government and military with one of the worst human rights records on earth. And the U.S. just signed an agreement with Colombia for U.S. military use of SEVEN new military bases in Colombia--including a very provocative base on the Guajira peninsula overlooking Venezuela's main oil reserves and facilities in the Gulf of Venezuela, and only 20 miles from the Venezuelan border--NO LIMIT on the numbers of U.S. soldiers and U.S. 'contractors' who can be deployed to Colombia, UNLIMITED diplomatic immunity for whatever U.S. soldiers and 'contractors' do there, and U.S. military use of all civilian airports and other facilities in Colombia. These Pentagon assets are in addition to the reconstitution of the U.S. 4th Fleet in the Caribbean, two new U.S. military bases in Panama, many existing U.S. military bases, and the U.S. military base and port facilities in Honduras, recently secured with a rightwing military coup. When these plans are all completed, the Pentagon will have Venezuela's main oil reserves and facilities surrounded. The relationship of Colombia's government and military to our government and military is much like that of South Vietnam, circa 1963-64. The U.S. military is already there--'advising' and 'training.' The Colombian government and military are basically U.S. creations, perhaps not to quite the extent that South Vietnam was, but sufficient to call them a "client state"--a country dependent on the U.S. for massive funding, and obedient to Washington's dictates. And the mechanism for a big escalation of U.S. forces is now in place.* Like South Vietnam, Colombia is 'inviting" the U.S. military in. I do not believe that this is merely to fight FARC guerillas, and it is laughable to believe that it has anything to do with drug interdiction.

4. In addition to all of the above, the U.S. government and its toady corpo-fascist press have been engaged in an intense, very focused, psyops/disinformation campaign against the Chavez government for some years now. Such an intense campaign is not merely to keep us stupid about universal health care or free education through college. (As one Honduran coup general said: By their coup, they were "preventing communism from Venezuela reaching the United States"). The long-standing campaign against the Canadian health care system, for instance, was/is a P.R. campaign to make us think that government health for all doesn't work. This campaign--against Chavez and his government (and, by implication, against the people of Venezuela)--is more like the WMDs in Iraq. It is a lethal "Big Lie" campaign--a campaign designed to put us to sleep while the U.S.-funded Colombian military invades Venezuela, supported by U.S. soldiers, U.S. high tech surveillance capabilities, U.S. planes and U.S. ships. It has created an IMPRESSION in many peoples' minds that Chavez is a "dictator" and not worth bothering our pretty little heads about, as Oil War II begins. What the Pentagon wants to do is split off northern Venezuela (where the oil is) from the Chavez government, probably using fascist groups in that region who openly talk of secession. (And they very likely have a similar plan for Ecuador, whose northern oil region is adjacent to Colombia to the south, and where the U.S./Colombia tried out a bombing/raid--killing 25 sleeping people in a FARC camp just over the Ecuadoran border--in March 2008.)

These are the realities in which the Chavez government apparently received intelligence that Colombia is working on its "Gulf of Tonkin" assignment--creating the incident that will be used to start this oil war. Venezuela is a very good democracy with the best government they've ever had, one that attends to the interests of the vast poor majority. Colombia has a very bad government--the worst in the region and one of the worst in the world--which has created a country with 3 million displaced small farmers, and enormous poverty that goes completely unaddressed, and in which you take your life in your hands--and those of your family members--merely by joining a union. The U.S. demonizes the democracy and supports the fascist state with $6 BILLION and soon with a massive U.S. military buildup, both to further prop up this fascist government, and very likely for a U.S. war to install a fascist government over Venezuela's oil region (and likely Ecuador's).



----------------------

*(The new U.S./Colombia military agreement--negotiated in secret from the Colombian people, from the Colombian legislature and from other leaders of the continent (who are furious about it)--has to come to the U.S. Congress for approval. I expect them to approve it, as they have approved every other war profiteer project presented to them.)

[laughingliberal]

96. +++1000

I am so damned sick of us deposing democratically elected officials and installing right wing fascists in their place in Latin America. They absolutely want us ignorant of the real situation. Imagine if America actually ever realized a leader could stand up for the poor against the oligarchs. Hell, we might start thinking we could demand a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for people who can't purchase their own lawmakers.

[Judi Lynn]

31. Already posted a few months ago, video with Colombian para detailing assassination plans.

Posted here already by DU'er Joanne98:

Colombian contract killer detailing an alleged $25 million plot to kill Hugo Chavez

Al Jazeera has obtained exclusive footage of a Colombian contract killer detailing an alleged $25 million plot to kill Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president.

Geovanny Velasquez Zambrano says the money was offered by Manuel Rosales, one of Chavez's main political rivals, during a secret meeting in 1999.

A Colombian paramilitary group took up the offer, according to Zambrano.

Chavez has long said there is a plot by Colombia to kill him, and relations between the two countries are tense.

Francisco Dominguez, head of the Centre of Brazil and Latin American Studies at UK's Middlesex University, told Al Jazeera that so far, it has been impossible for Chavez's opponents to bring him down by political means.

"He's very popular. He's lost one of 16 elections only. So if anyone is desperate to get rid of him, the
one neat mechanism to get rid of him would be assassination," Dominquez said.

"Chavez is pretty justified in thinking this guy's claims were credible. It is credible that Rosales could have offered $25 million."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x378448

[naaman fletcher]

37. Wag the f'ing dog

Whenever the US starts talking tough (or most nations for that matter) we all understand that it's a cover for domestic problems. Yet for some reason in this nation of high crime, power shortages, food shortages, etc. Everyone somehow believes that Chavez would not start inventing threats to distract the population. bizarre.

[Mudoria]

38. Isn't that the truth..

When their boy tells them to wag their tails the Fan Club comes running..

[Judi Lynn]

39. Take the time to inform yourself on what has been going on in Venezuela.

Get a grasp of what Hugo Chavez has done in comparison to the other Venezuelan presidents.

Your comments only work for you if you actually know what you're talking about, not just shooting the breeze and speculating from a base provided for you by the corporate media. Do your own research. Think. Then post.

[naaman fletcher]

41. Yeah right..

I know what "take the time to inform yourself means". It means "only read paid shill Venezuela blogs, or Venezuela gov't owned media".

Plus, what does "what Chavez has done in comparison to other Venezuelan presidents" have to do this discussion? I'll tell you what: People like you don't rationally look at news stories. You love Chavez (either correctly or incorrectly) and then view every single news story through that lens.

Do you really believe he is the only leader in the history of the world who routinely gives speeches about war and enemies who is not at all wagging the dog?

[laughingliberal]

99. "only read paid shill Venezuela blogs, or Venezuela gov't owned media".

Or we could rely on our own corporate owned media which has always been so objective and honest with us.

[naaman fletcher]

106. Or we could read a broad specturm of sources and try to reconcile

the differing impressions and statements to try to get a good idea what is going on.

[laughingliberal]

109. That would work nt

[Zorro]

124. Or one could actually travel to Latin America and experience the culture first-hand

[AlphaCentauri]

43. This information won't be find in the US media but google is your friend

So who is trying to scare who?
Looks like the Colombian government already have a plan to scare people and make them think some external forces are going to invade them, of course fear would justified the leese of the military bases. So the colombian government is inventing threats to distract the population? Wag the dog, Uribe.

Estudio recomienda a Colombia prepararse ante ataque externo

El informe titulado 'La Fuerza Pública y los Retos del Futuro' indica que ante la tendencia a la polarización política y las aspiraciones expansionistas manifiestas por algunos países, tanto en términos ideológicos como territoriales, surge la necesidad de hacer un mayor énfasis en la protección de la soberanía nacional.

"Se debe considerar que, para proteger la soberanía nacional de amenazas externas, las Fuerzas Militares deben contar con capacidades para disuadir una posible agresión o para defender a la Nación en caso de que ésta ocurra", precisa el reporte en el que se señala que el país debe implementar las recomendaciones antes de 2014.

Yeah, and guess who is going to get to sell those weapons to Colombia?

[rabs]

44. AlphaC, do you have a link to this "estudio."

Curious about who put it out and when.

Gracias mil.

[AlphaCentauri]

46. Link

http://alpha.mindefensa.gov.co/descargas/Documentos_Descargables/prospectiva/La%20Fuerza%20Publica%20y%20los%20Retos%20del%20Futuro.pdf

http://ww1.elcomercio.com/noticiaEC.asp?id_noticia=325041&id_seccion=5

[rabs]

48. Whew, 57 pages .... thanks,

will scan the document later on; intrigued about the belicose (???)

-- Papaya Scenario

-- Sliced Papaya Scenario


Also found a round-up by El Espectador of Bogota.

About a month ago, Chavez told his generals that the best way to preserve the peace was to be prepared for war. That created a big fuss in the media and even here on DU.

Now that it has been revealed that Colombia is doing the same, there does not seem to be the same fuss. :shrug:


http://www.elespectador.com/noticias/judicial/articulo179503-informe-senala-amenazas-hay-armarse


and an article of what the Colombian military is doing to prepare for a possible war

http://www.elespectador.com/impreso/politica/articuloimpreso178631-planes-de-defensa-ffmm

[AlphaCentauri]

49. The funny part out of this is that the government of Colombia

is preparing to defend it's sovereignty from external forces but on the other hand is turning part of their territory sovereignty to the US.

Interesting

[AlphaCentauri]

94. This article from el espectador has a lot details, it even mention the spy plane type

that was flying over Venezuela

http://www.elespectador.com/impreso/nacional/articuloimpreso156336-guerra-electronica

[Judi Lynn]

101. Wow. Really interesting. Opposition Senator Robledo sees it as loss of sovereignty,

and the onset of a US perpetual war strategy.

There's going to be target on his back, no doubt at all.

Very heavily loaded for war, it appears. Congrats to their slimy little Prsident for enrolling Colombia in a brand new updated form of electronic warfare.

Thank you for the info.

[AlphaCentauri]

104. it mention DynCorp, Integrated AeroSystems, Military Professional Resources and Lockheed-Martin,

as they are part of the military trainig there.

[wayne fontes]

50. Chavez just bought 4 Billion in Russian weapons

Chavez is the one doing the saber rattling, not Columbia. Relax, Hugo just needs to distract the masses.

[AlphaCentauri]

51. Lets talk about reality

The Venezuelan weapons wouldn't be enough to sustain a two weeks war against the US/Colombia partnership

[wayne fontes]

52. No argument with that

You seem to operate under the assumption that the US will invade Venezuela. I think that's a paranoid fantasy. We need their oil and they are an important trade partner. The US can't pay for our current wars and is in no position to take on a third.

Chavez is the one mouthing off. Last week it was phantom drones. The week before the US was going to launch an invasion from territories run by the Netherlands. He's got problems at home he's trying to paper over.

In the unlikely event Chavez starts a war with Columbia the US wouldn't have to do much any way. Columbia would crush Venezuela in short order.

[AlphaCentauri]

53. "Columbia would crush Venezuela in short order" Like they have done it with FARC of course

assuming that colombia is so powerful to defend it self from foreign invaders,
why do they need US logistics and troops in their military bases?

[wayne fontes]

54. More is always better

Especially if Uncle Sam picks up most of the tab. I'm assuming that Chavez would be invading Columbia in which case they would be defeated pretty easily. I don't think anything will actually happen.

[AlphaCentauri]

60. Then Colombia is selling its sovereignty to Uncle Sam for money

what a disgrace to Bolivar

[wayne fontes]

64. Columbia made a deal

Access to airports and military installations for a limited period of time hardly constitutes "selling your sovereignty". They made a deal to get what they want and there is little the US could do if they change their mind.

[AlphaCentauri]

65. The conclusion of all the countries around Colombia is that

they are becoming the destabilizing country of the region by allowing external forces in their territory.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

76. Whoop de doo.

With all due respect, it isn't surprising that nations that have already cut ties with the U.S. military on their own are outraged by Colombia expanding its own. It hardly constitutes evidence that Colombia has sold its sovereignty. If you'd like to take another crack at this, feel free.

[AlphaCentauri]

91. Sure, there are history books about US intervention in latin america

that's why they have a reason to be worry about the Colombian pack

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

112. To worry or be skeptical? Absolutely. To insist Colombia has given up its sovereignty? No.

[ronnie624]

100. Colombia hosting the military of a government hostile to Venezuela is "Whoop de doo",

but a mere utterance by President Chavez is "saber rattling" that is "destabilizing the region".

Your bias could not be more obvious.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

113. With all due respect

until Chavez presents evidence of this claim, this will simply remain a matter of opinion. Mine vs. yours. You can sit there and rail against my supposed bias until the cows come home, it won't change the fact that we deserve more than Chavez's word on this subject.

[Zorro]

126. If the US government actually was "hostile" to Venezuela

the US would prohibit Venezuelan oil from being refined here.

[quakerboy]

137. The way we prohibited Pre-invasion sanctioned Iraqi Oil?

Or is your argument that we were not hostile toward Iraq while we were holding no-flyzones and actively shooting their planes down and sanctioning all their trade?

I'm pretty sure that we also take Iranian Oil, though I would have to do some research to be certain. Assuming I am correct, would you argue that we are not/have not been hostile towards Iran?

The US is in no position to say no to oil, regardless of source. We just don't do that. What we as a nation do have a history of doing is trying to manipulate other countries so that our oil boys have easier access without pesky restrictions placed on it by uncontrolled native governments.

[Judi Lynn]

67. You should relent, do some research, and find out what has actually happened in Colombia

relating to the United States. It can ONLY help you.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FOEvcwYJoq4/Re9j-knep8I/AAAAAAAAAEQ/FHCAr
http://3.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_FOEvcwYJoq4/Re9i20nep7I/AAAAAAAAAEI/fV-Wvu0SpXw/s320/noPC.JPG

"The United States provides the money, Colombia provides the dead - No to Plan Colombia"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_FOEvcwYJoq4/Re9oeNM4a-I/AAAAAAAAAEw/BqTCk4rrarQ/s200/fuerayanquis.JPG

"Yankees out of Colombia, and out of the whole world!"

http://1.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_FOEvcwYJoq4/RfVQ47kOD7I/AAAAAAAAAHI/0asw18xi41w/s320/fueraburning.JPG

http://santiago.indymedia.org.nyud.net:8090/uploads/2008/03/uribe_narco.jpg

http://www.conbolivar.org.nyud.net:8090/antigua/nuevo/imagenes/renucie-uribe.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_OPM-__VQGL8/SUfDUary-YI/AAAAAAAAAcM/hcmILDj_DZc/s400/bush.jpg

[Mudoria]

68. So explain why Uribe is overwhelmingly popular in Colombia?

Much more so than Chavez in Venezuela for that matter.

[Judi Lynn]

69. And who tells you he is? The journalists left in Colombia have reported they self-censor

so they won't be killed.

Do yourself the favor of researching, and getting in touch with reality.

Here's a prime example from many available of why this little puppet is so "popular":

COLOMBIA: "Mark Him on the Ballot - The One Wearing Glasses"
By Constanza Vieira

Credit:Procuraduría General

BOGOTA, May 8 (IPS) - "With Uribe, we thought: this is the guy who is going to change the country," the 41-year-old fisherwoman told IPS.

That is why her fishing and farming village of 800 people in the central Colombian region of Magdalena Medio decided overwhelmingly to vote for current President Álvaro Uribe in the 2002 presidential elections, when he first ran.

The woman agreed to talk to IPS on the condition that she be asked neither her name (we will call her "L.") nor the name of her village.

The main city in the fertile region of Magdalena Medio is Barrancabermeja, an oil port on the Magdalena River, which runs across Colombia from south to north before emptying into the Caribbean Sea.

What convinced the villagers to vote for Uribe? "Because the region where we live is poor, very poor, it’s so difficult to find work, and when I heard him say ‘I am going to work for the poor, I am going to help them,’ I thought ‘this is a good president’."

When the rightwing president’s first four-year term came to an end in 2006, most of the villagers decided again to vote for him, reasoning that he just needed more time to reduce poverty.

The odd thing was that in both the 2002 and 2006 elections, despite the fact that the villagers had already decided to vote for Uribe, the far-right paramilitaries, who had committed a number of murders since 1998, when they appeared in the region that was previously dominated by the leftwing guerrillas, pressured the local residents to vote for Uribe anyway.

The paramilitaries did not kill people to pressure the rest to vote for Uribe, as they did in other communities, but merely used "threats," said L.

"If you don't vote for Uribe, you know what the consequences will be," the villagers were told ominously.

And on election day, they breathed down voters’ necks: "This is the candidate you’re going to vote for. You’re going to put your mark by this one. The one wearing glasses," they would say, pointing to Uribe’s photo on the ballot, L. recalled.

"One (of the paramilitaries) was on the precinct board, another one was standing next to the table, and another was a little way off, all of them watching to see if you voted for Uribe," she added, referring to the less than subtle way that the death squads commanded by drug traffickers and allies of the army ensured that L.’s village voted en masse for the current president in both elections.

"We form part of a municipality where there is corruption, from the mayor to town councillors, the police, the army and the justice officials - in a word, everyone. They are just one single corrupt mass. So what are you supposed to do?" said L., who added that the paramilitaries "control everything."

More:
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42290

http://www.cbc.ca.nyud.net:8090/gfx/images/news/photos/2007/03/11/bush-colombia-cp-161514.jpg http://www.bnamericas.com.nyud.net:8090/ten/images/alvaroUribe.gif

http://media3.washingtonpost.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-srv/photo/gallery/090824/GAL-09Aug24-2518/media/PHO-09Aug24-175945.jpg

Aug. 27

Demonstrators set fire to an effigy of Colombia's President Alvaro Uribe during a protest
sign reads, "For peace, against U.S. military bases in Latin America".

Enrique Marcarian-REUTERS

[naaman fletcher]

83. I actually know quite a few Colombians,

And every one of them likes Uribe. It may or may not be to Uribe's credit, but the fact is that violence is WAY WAY down in Colombia in the last few years.


As for doing research, what does that mean exactly? Only reading Chavezista blogs?

[AlphaCentauri]

87. I know some Colombians and they love Piedad Cordova

also know Venezuelans

[Zorro]

123. Who is Piedad Cordova?

Or do you mean Piedad Cordoba?

[Judi Lynn]

88. The Colombian who got my interest started in finding more knew Alvaro Uribe since he was a governor

and has deeply has always disliked him, has hated what the paras have done to human beings ALL THESE YEARS, and has friends in the Colombian Senate with whom he communicates still.

He and his family CLEARLY have no use for the slimy little buggerer, and left Colombia to get the hell away from that crap.

[Bacchus39]

71. Obama most popular leader in Latin America, Chavez the least

this is amoung all Latin Americans not just their respective countries.

http://www.latinobarometro.org

click where it says Informe Latinobarómetro 2009 at top right.


Chavez approval only 27% regionwide including just 17% favorable rating in Brazil, 13 in Mexico, and 12 in Colombia 25% in Ecuador page 104

poll on leadership approval on page 60. Chavez is at 45% in Veneuzuela. Uribe is at 72% in Colombia.

[AlphaCentauri]

90. Oh! they are expecting Change from Obama

will they get it

[Bacchus39]

97. and they just don't like Chavez

its a good thing they like Obama. look at the 2008 survey with Bush. I believed he scored below Chavez actually. Obama's numbers may not stay high, that is a possibility. but Latin American polls won't determine Obama's direction either.

[ronnie624]

111. I wish I could read Spanish.

I strongly suspect the lack of commentary and translated information in your message on the polling results is by contrivance.

I was unable to locate any information in English on a 2009 survey by Latinobarómetro, but here is an interesting item about the 2007 survey:

Venezuelans See Economy and Democracy More Positively Than Other Latin Americans

The non-profit NGO Latinobarómetro released its annual poll surveying the development of democracies, economies, and societies in Latin America, applying attitudinal, opinion, and behavioral indicators. Its results are very eloquent regarding the Latin American people’s ideology and opinion, especially when referring to Venezuela.

It conducted 19,000 interviews in 18 Latin American countries, represented by more than 400 million inhabitants. The data of this foundation, based on Santiago de Chile, are used by political and social actors, international organizations, governments, and mass media.

However, they have been scarcely spread by the media due to what it shows regarding Venezuela.

<http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3075>

[wayne fontes]

70. Thanks for the advice

Thanks, but I know how to use the internet. Since I haven't said anything which could even be interpreted as a laudatory about Columbia I'm not certain what your comment is directed at (I'm assuming it's direct towards me) Usually I don't try to source pictures of propaganda to support my points. If I say anything factually incorrect don't hesitate to to point it out.

Question: What does the notation n/t I've seen in this forum mean?

[Judi Lynn]

73. It means "no text" so people reading your response won't click the link

to read the rest of your comment, if your comment is short, and contained already in the subject line.

That puzzled me too, when I saw it originally.

[naaman fletcher]

59. Why is it..

That is anyone critizes Chavez the response is "but look at Uribe!". Uribe is a jerk, that doesn't mean that Chavez is also not a jerk.

[AlphaCentauri]

61. Because the US media try to portrait Chavez as an evil socialist

but they stay for the most part quiet about their angels Right wing bodies.

[naaman fletcher]

66. maybe both are evil.

[EFerrari]

There is no comparison. Hugo Chavez has no ties to militias

that decimate Venezuelan civilians. Venezuala has no crematoria to burn the evidence. Venezuela is not a proxy for multinationals or for the United States.

You can fault Chavez for being overly ambitious in the projects he starts and for having a big mouth. But you can't fault him on human rights or democracy.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

79. But you can fault him for sabre rattling, ties to guerillas, etc.

Let's not pretend he's some angel sent from on high.

[Bacchus39]

80. he is even creating citizen militias. boy, that has worked well in the past

see Guatemala.

[naaman fletcher]

81. I am faulting him for wagging the dog..

That is it. I am not saying that Colombia is better, or that Uribe is better, or that there is even a comparison. I am commenting on Saint Hugo's behavior, however some people here only engage in moral relativism when it comes to analyzing his behavior.

[EFerrari]

82. Then you aren't paying attention. The US military build up

in the region is deplored by all Latin American leaders but our lapdogs. He's not "wagging the dog" in any way.

That you choose to use stupid terms like "St Hugo" is your problem and has nothing to do with the reality on the ground in the region.

[naaman fletcher]

84. So in your opinion..

With food and electric shortages, and rampant inflation, there is NO WAY that Chavez is trying to deflect attention to a foreign enemy? Do you agree that in basically every other country in the world wagging the dog is exactly what a leader would do in this situation? But Chavez is above all that, right?

[EFerrari]

85. No, I'm saying that there is a military build up in South America

that every single leader that isn't in our pocket is not liking.

And if you want to spin Venezuela's problems, I'll be happy to run down California's which are quite similar.

[naaman fletcher]

86. there you go again...

Why can't you guys pass an opinion on Chavez without saying "But so and so is worse!"?

[EFerrari]

98. Except I didn't say that. Maybe that's just what you read.

:)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

114. Is it a build up or is it a restructuring, based on the loss of our bases in other countries?

[Zorro]

125. But he does have ties to FARC

[EFerrari]

132. Cada loco con se tema. Every madman has his obsession.

:)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

78. With all due respect, you all are barking up the wrong tree

We're not the "US media" and when people repeatedly attempt to deflect criticisms of Chavez by obsessing over Uribe it makes them look like Chavista hacks.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

77. Nicely put.

[robcon]

42. I think Hugo has been sniffin' the sulfur a little too much.

n/t

[Lagomorph]

56. If Columbia has any offensive military capability, they've hidden it well.

Chavez could roll over Columbia easily. Columbia has never been a military threat to Venezuela.

[EFerrari]

63. Colombian paras were called into Honduras by the oligarchs

to help them during their repression, torture and murders. But, of course this isn't about Colombia and Venezuela but about the United States and Latin America. Colombia is just the beard.

[Judi Lynn]

72. The old excuse to meddle in Colombia was "commies," now it's "terrorists"

and you've seen there are old school throwbacks who still believe it's all about those goldurn commies, and those goldurn drug guys, and don't seem to realize the vast majority of the murders have been committed all this time by government forces and by government-connected paramilitaries, who are historically right-wing butchers. This is the official position of ALL the human rights groups, the human rights workers, themselves, targets of the Uribe government and the paramilitaries who murder them from time to time.

They've been caught time after time with their government-connected paras and militaries in Venezuela, called there by Venezuelan US-supported elites, like Miami Cuban "exile"-connected Roberto Alonso, who is the leading proponent of "guarimba", violence against the elected President, for violent chores.

The Venezuelan elite imports soldiers
by Marta Harnecker
May 23, 2004

~snip~
Since 'the conspiracies against Venezuela do not end with the capture of mercenaries in Caracas,' there must be many other infiltrators in other areas of the country; since this is not an isolated action, but one whose efforts to stop the process continue, one can reach but only one conclusion: it is necessary to prepare oneself for self-defense. This is why the President considered it opportune to take advantage of the occasion and to announce three strategic lines for defending the country. The most radical proposal was a call for the population to massively participate in the defense of the nation.

A week earlier, on the 9th of May, on the outskirts of Caracas, a paramilitary force was discovered, dressed in field uniforms. Later, more were found, raising the total to 130, leaving open the possibility that there are still more in the country. The three Colombian paramilitary leaders of the group are members of the Autonomous Self-Defense Forces (AUC) in Northern Santander state in Colombia.

Some of the captured Colombian fighters have a long history as members of paramilitary forces. Others are reservists of the Colombian army and yet others were specifically recruited for the task in Venezuela and were surely tricked. Among these there are several who are minors.

A colonel of the Venezuelan air force was also detained, as well as seven officers of the National Guard. Among those implicated in the plot is a group of civilians headed by the Cuban Roberto Alonso, creator of the 'guarimbas,'<1> and Gustavo Quintero Machado, a Venezuelan, both who are currently wanted by the Venezuelan justice system.

What the real objectives were is now being discussed. One of them could have been to steal weapons so as to then attack the Miraflores presidential palace and President Chavez himself.

The government denounced the existence of an international plot in which the governments of the United States and of Colombian would be involved. U.S. Ambassador Shapiro denied that his country had any participation in the incident. And the Colombian president, for his part, solidarized himself with the Venezuelan government, affirming that he supports its actions against the members of the irregular Colombian military group, which then caused Chavez to publicly announce that he was convinced that President Alvaro Uribe did not have anything to do with the plot, even though he insisted on leveling charges against a Colombian general by the name of Carreño.

Even though the oppositional media conducted a big campaign to minimize the issue, trying to accuse the government of having organized a montage, so as to have a pretext for taking forceful measures that would impede a confrontation at the voting booth, every day more evidence surfaces that confirm the official version.

The Colombian attorney general's office has evidence that proves that paramilitary fighters were recruited and then transported to Venezuela and that extreme right-wing groups infiltrated intelligence services in the border town of Cúcuta. The proof was shown on the news program 'The Independent Network.' The program broadcast some intercepted recordings of paramilitary soldiers in Cúcuta, in which the operations they carried out in Venezuelan territory are reviewed.

More:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5579

Uribe's former head of his spy agency, D.A.S., Jorge Noguera, jailed after a scandal erupted concerning the fact the D.E.A. had been spying on judges, politicians, journalists, wire tapping them, etc., and after it was revealed he had been giving lists of names of union leaders, lawmakers, judges, politicans to the paramilitaries for assassination, did testify he was also aware of the Colombian paramilitary soldiers being involved in an assassination attempt against Hugo Chavez.

Uribe also met with Hugo Chavez a few years ago in a private meeting to apologize for this assassination plot from Colombia. The meeting lasted for hours.

http://www.embavenez-us.org.nyud.net:8090/uploaded_pics/158_2.jpg http://www.embavenez-us.org.nyud.net:8090/uploaded_pics/158_1.jpg

Colombian paramilitaries captured at a ranch owned by Cuban right-wing “exile” Roberto Alonso

January 25, 2005

The Granda Kidnapping Explodes
The US / Colombia Plot Against Venezuela
By JAMES PETRAS

A major diplomatic and political conflict has exploded between Colombia and Venezuela after the revelation of a Colombian government covert operation in Venezuela, involving the recruitment of Venezuelan military and security officers in the kidnapping of a Colombian leftist leader. Following an investigation by the Venezuelan Ministry of Interior and reports and testimony from journalists and other knowledgeable political observers it was determined that the highest echelons of the Colombian government, including President Uribe, planned and executed this onslaught on Venezuelan sovereignty.

Once direct Colombian involvement was established, the Venezuelan government demanded a public apology from the Colombian government while seeking a diplomatic solution by blaming Colombian Presidential advisers. The Colombian regime took the offensive, launching an aggressive defense of its involvement in the violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and, beyond that, seeking to establish in advance, under the rationale of "national security" the legitimacy of future acts of aggression. As a result President Chavez has recalled the Venezuelan Ambassador from Bogota, suspended all state-to-state commercial and political agreements pending an official state apology. In response the US Government gave unconditional support to Colombian violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and urged the Uribe regime to push the conflict further. What began as a diplomatic conflict over a specific incident has turned into a major, defining crises in US and Latin American political relations with potentially explosive military, economic and political consequences for the entire region.

In justifying the kidnapping of Rodrigo Granda, the Colombian leftist leader, the Uribe regime has promulgated a new foreign policy doctrine which echoes that of the Bush Administration: the right of unilateral intervention in any country in which the Colombian government perceives or claims is harboring or providing refuge to political adversaries (which the regime labels as "terrorists") which might threaten the security of the state. The Uribe doctrine of unilateral intervention echoes the preventive war speech, enunciated in late 2001 by President Bush. Clearly Uribe's action and pronouncement is profoundly influenced by the dominance that Washington exercises over the Uribe regime's policies through its extended $3 billion dollar military aid program and deep penetration of the entire political-defense apparatus.

Uribe's offensive military doctrine involves several major policy propositions:

1.) The right to violate any country's sovereignty, including the use of force and violence, directly or in cooperation with local mercenaries.

2.) The right to recruit and subvert military and security officials to serve the interests of the Colombian state.

3.) The right to allocate funds to bounty hunters or "third parties" to engage in illegal violent acts within a target country.

4.) The assertion of the supremacy of Colombian laws, decrees and policies over and against the sovereign laws of the intervened country

More:
http://www.counterpunch.org/petras01252005.html

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/media/images/40133000/jpg/_40133929_paramilitaries_ap_203body.jpg

More captured Colombian paramilitaries

Published on Monday, May 17,
by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

President Hugo Chavez announced his government would establish "people's militias" to counter what he called foreign interference after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries Caracas claims was financed by Washington.

Chavez also said he would boost the strength of Venezuela's armed forces as part of a new "anti-imperialist" phase for his government.

"Each and every Venezuelan man and woman must consider themselves a soldier," said Chavez.

"Let the organization of a popular and military orientation begin from today."

The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

12.30pm update

Colombian paramilitaries arrested in Venezuela

Jeremy Lennard and agencies
Monday May 10, 2004

Venezuelan police have arrested more than 70 Colombian paramilitary fighters who were allegedly plotting to strike against the government in Caracas, according to the country's president, Hugo Chávez.
Opposition leaders, however, were quick to dismiss the president's claim, calling the raids on a farm less than 10 miles from the capital a ruse to divert attention from their efforts to oust Mr Chávez in a recall vote.

During his weekly radio and TV broadcast, Hello Mr President, Mr Chávez said that 53 paramilitary fighters were arrested at the farm early on Sunday and another 24 were picked up after fleeing into the countryside.
The country's security forces were uncovering additional clues and searching for more suspects, he said, adding that the arrests were proof of a conspiracy against his government involving Cuban and Venezuelan exiles in Florida and neighbouring Colombia.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/10/venezuela.jeremylennard



More captured Colombian paramilitaries

Three Venezuelan Officers and 27 Colombians Sentenced for Assassination Plot
A Venezuelan military court sentenced three Venezuelan military officers and 27 Colombians to two to nine years of prison for plotting an assault on Venezuela’s presidential palace and the assassination of President Hugo Chavez.Another 73 Colombians and 3 Venezuelan officers, who had also been suspected of participating in the plot, were freed after spending 17 months in prison.

118 Colombians were captured in May 2004 on a ranch just outside of Caracas, wearing Venezuelan military fatigues. Many of them appeared to be Colombian paramilitary fighters who had been recruited for a mission in Venezuela to attack the Chavez government and to kill the president. Six Venezuelan officers were also arrested in the course of the investigation.
Some of the Colombians were peasants who had been lured to come to Venezuela with the promise of jobs. Upon arriving, though, they were forced to engage in paramilitary training exercises and were forbidden to leave the ranch. 18 of the Colombians were released immediately after the capture and returned to Colombia because they were minors between 15 and 17 years. The ranch belongs to Roberto Alonso, a prominent Cuban-Venezuelan opposition activist. The highest level officer to be sentenced was General Ovidio Poggioli, who had been charged with military rebellion and was sentenced to 2 years and ten months of prison. The other two Venezuelan officers are Colonel Jesús Farias Rodríguez and Captain Rafael Farias Villasmil, who were each sentenced to nine years of prison. The 27 Colombians were each sentenced to six years prison.
When the group of Colombians were first arrested, many opposition leaders argued that the government had staged the arrests, in order to make the opposition look bad. They pointed out that no weapons were found with the paramilitary fighters and that the whole operation looked far too amateurish to have any chance of success. Also, it was argued that it is practically impossible to transport 120 Colombian paramilitary fighters undetected all the way from Colombia to Caracas, considering that there are numerous military control points along the way.

More:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article130297.html

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

74. Go Hugo! Defend the secret Bolivarian Moon Base! n/t

[Peace Patriot]

102. Context! Context! Context! Please look at the CONTEXT!

To those who think that Chavez is saber-rattling, that Chavez wants to invade Colombia, that Chavez is ratcheting up threats to deflect attention from domestic problems, and/or that those who don't read the situation this way are somehow worshiping "Saint Chavez," I ask you to look at the CONTEXT...

1. Thousands of union leaders, peasant farmers, human rights workers, political leftists and others have been MURDERED in Colombia, an on-going slaughter by the Colombia military and its death squads. THREE MILLION peasants have been brutally driven off their lands by these murdering troops and paras--using U.S. taxpayer funded weapons and U.S. taxpayer funded toxic chemicals, in order to "cleanse" the lands for Monsanto, Chiquita, Occidental Petroleum, et al, for the big, government-protected drug lords, and for U.S./Colombia military operations. (A lot of this "cleansing" of peasant farmers and of indigenous tribes is occurring in the provinces adjacent to Venezuela.) Colombia has the second worst displacement crisis on earth, and the second worst human rights record on earth. Vast numbers of its people are VERY POOR, have NO RIGHTS, and the government doesn't give a fuck.

2. By contrast, the Chavez government in Venezuela EMPOWERS workers, EMPOWERS peasant farmers, EMPOWERS the poor--with countless policies and programs--and it is so respectful of human rights that it has risked losing important referendums and incurring the wrath of the Catholic Church by championing equal rights for women and gays. The Chavez government TAKES CARE OF the flood of refugees from Colombia--tens of thousands of them fleeing Colombia's military and its death squads. Venezuela has never had a better government as to respect for human rights, empowerment of the poor and real democracy.

3. The U.S. has been MILITARIZING Colombia, using the "war on drugs" as an excuse, and last year (under Bush) ADDED the FARC guerillas (an internal civil war that has been going on for 40+ years) as ANOTHER excuse. The MILITARIZED "war on drugs" is a corrupt, murderous, FAILED project--yet it goes on and on, killing peasants, poisoning their crops and their children, driving THREE MILLION PEOPLE into urban poverty and squalor, killing union leaders, killing protestors, killing teachers, and the flow of cocaine NEVER STOPS. The "war on drugs" is the EXCUSE. The militarization is the POINT. I thought for a long time that it was "just" war profiteering. Recent developments tell me otherwise. What. the. fuck. does. the. United States. need. SEVEN. military bases. in. Colombia. **FOR**? A USAF document, recently uncovered, says, "FULL SPECTRUM MILITARY OPERATIONS" in South America, to deal with drugs, "terrorists," AND "anti-U.S. governments"!

4. In addition to the SEVEN new U.S. military bases in Colombia, Colombia is building a NEW base on the tip of the Guajira peninsula overlooking the Gulf of Venezuela, which, in P.R. announcements, the Colombian military has claimed is being built with "Colombian tax money." Why would these notorious liars say this? Because they don't want people to know who will really be owning and running this base. With the military base overlooking the Gulf of Venezuela, the other U.S. military bases in Colombia, the two new U.S. military bases in Panama, the U.S. military base and port facilities in Honduras recently secured with a rightwing military coup, the U.S. military bases on the Dutch islands off the Venezuelan coast, and the newly reconstituted U.S. 4th Fleet in the Caribbean, the Pentagon has Venezuela's main oil reserves, facilities and shipping in the Gulf of Venezuela SURROUNDED, and can blockade the ports and send Colombian proxy troops (or U.S. troops and 'contractors') over the border into Venezuela to take Venezuela's northern oil region by force, and there is evidence that this war plan may include local fascist thugs declaring their "independence," seceding from Venezuela and "inviting" the U.S./Colombian military into their country. (Donald Rumsfeld alluded to this strategy in a op-ed in the Washington Post one year after his "retirement," on 12/1/07. The Bushwhacks tried it out in Bolivia in Sept. 2008. Ecuador's president has said publicly that there is a coordinated rightwing plot for secession scenarios in three countries--Ecuador, Bolivia, Venezuela--the Bolivarian democracies, all rich in OIL, and in Bolivia, gas, oil and lithium. (Ecuador's main oil reserves and facilities are adjacent to Colombia to the south.)

5. Venezuela has one of the LOWEST military budgets in the region! Brazil spends ten times what Venezuela spends on the military. And NOBODY on earth matches the U.S. in military spending. $6 BILLION to Colombia alone (not counting the new bases and new U.S. soldier/contractor deployments, which are OPEN-ENDED in this new TEN-YEAR agreement.) $6 BILLION! Venezuela poses NO THREAT to the U.S. or to anybody else. Criminy, I CAN'T BELIEVE I HAVE TO SAY THIS. I'm having WMD deja vu. Venezuela is a PEACEFUL democracy where the government has improved the lives of the poor, has empowered workers and the poor, has respected the human and civil rights of all people, and has scrupulously adhered to the Venezuelan Constitution and the rule of law in all of its actions. Colombia is a lawless, narco-thug regime, propped up by $6 BILLLION in U.S. taxpayer money and an OPEN-ENDED commitment of the U.S. military to keep propping it up, because why? BECAUSE WHY?

6. The U.S. government and the corpo-fascist media relentlessly pummel a good democracy--a democracy whose elections are far, FAR more transparent than our own--with a government that does NOT neglect and kill and displace its poor citizens, a government that does the opposite--and fawns over the wretched thieves, murderers and drug lords running Colombia! $6 BILLION to the killers of thousands of union leaders! Why? Because Colombia is a TOOL, that's why. Colombia is a creature of our global corporate predators and war profiteers. A tool for WHAT?

It COULD be that our corporate rulers are "just" trying to BREAK Venezuela--to destroy an example of democratic socialism in this hemisphere--similar to the "Cold War" arms race that broke the Soviet Union, except that Venezuela is NOT a communist nor an imperial nation. (It has a mixed socialist/capitalist economy, not unlike many European countries, and no territorial ambitions.) Our global corporate predators CLEARLY want to destroy the leftist democracy movement that has swept South America and half of Central America, and they want to kill the notion of a Latin American "common market" that has arisen and taken form among all the new leftist leaders of the region. Venezuela and Brazil are strongly allied in this movement, with their ideas of "raising all boats" and joining together for collective regional economic/political strength. Our predators want to "divide and conquer" that alliance, and all the leftist alliances. (This is why the current corpo-fascist 'meme' is that Brazil's president is "the good left" and Venezuela's president is "the bad left," though these two presidents are close friends and allies).

SO--the dramatic U.S. military buildup in Colombia COULD be "simply" to cause trouble--to drain Venezuela's budget away from social programs and into defense spending, and to cause friction and disagreement in how to respond to it. But, given the Pentagon's lust for oil to fuel its great war machine, given that Iran has been taken "off the table" (too tough a military challenge; too much risk of nuke powers China and Russia coming into it), given the relentless psyops/disinformation campaign against Chavez, and given the SIZE of the U.S. budget commitment to further militarizing Colombia and creating a big U.S. military presence/coordination-of-forces in Colombia and the region, I think there's more to it. I think it's a war plan.

[Socal31]

107. I only read your last paragraph...

and that was all that I needed in order to know your whole post is based on wild assumptions.

[Peace Patriot]

108. That's a good one. You only read my last paragraph but you "know" that the "whole post"

is based on "wild assumptions." ?!

Don't bother you with the details, eh?

The last paragraph is the CONCLUSION, based on what went before it--DETAILS, based on facts, reading, consulting many sources, research. I have read MANY, MANY reports, and points 1 through 6 are the result of that research. For instance, I've read a number of reports on the relative military budgets in South America. Venezuela's is one of the lowest. I've read many reports on the details of the U.S./Colombia military agreement, and other Pentagon activities and plans in Latin America. I know what I am talking about. I've read Amnesty International's and many other human rights groups reports on Colombia. I've read numerous accounts of the Chavez government, pro and con, and detailed analyses of their policies. And, as a concerned, involved U.S. citizen, I've been a Pentagon watcher since the Vietnam War. My comment was NOT based on "wild assumptions." You are the one making "wild assumptions" based on NOT reading the evidence for my conclusion.

I urge you to go back and read the details. I am not lying. I am not fantasizing. The Pentagon REALLY is setting up SEVEN new U.S. military bases in Colombia, with NO LIMIT on the number of U.S. troops and 'contractors' who can be deployed there. It is scaring the hell out of me because it is so similar to South Vietnam 1963-64. And they really and truly are setting up war assets that surround Venezuela's main oil reserves and facilities, from the U.S. 4th Fleet in the Caribbean (off Venezuela's oil coast), to the new U.S. bases in Panama, and in Colombia (including the Guajira peninsula), and existing bases and port facilities in Honduras (the "lily pad" country for U.S. aggression in the region during the Reagan era) and on the Dutch islands (right off Venezuela's oil coast). I am not making this up.

You are certainly free to disagree with my analysis and conclusions. But you are blinding yourself to the serious reality of the very expensive and very dangerous U.S. military buildup in Colombia and the region if you won't read the details, and simply dismiss it all as "wild." I think that any reasonable person, reading what I've read, would agree with my conclusions--or my tentative conclusion, that it looks to me like a war plan. But maybe not. And I'm searching for other explanations myself--mere war profiteering, typical anti-left destabilization efforts, "divide and conquer" tactics (getting a war going between Colombia and Venezuela as trouble-making). I'm not a seer. I don't know what my government and military will do. Like all Americans, I am kept in the dark until our government springs its next expensive horror upon us. All I can do is "read the entrails" like everybody else. But I do put a lot of effort into knowing what I'm talking about. So please don't dismiss it as "wild" when you haven't read my summary of the facts.

[Zorro]

110. Didn't I just drub your keister over your phony claims of SEVEN new US bases?

[Peace Patriot]

115. I DOCUMENTED the SEVEN new U.S. bases back to you, from numerous reports--

Time magazine, BBC, a FOIA researcher and others--including names of all of the bases. And you have not replied or acknowledged that you were wrong.

You are self-referencing a non-keister drubbing, my dear. I'm the drubber, not you.

[Zorro]

116. Agreement allows access to Colombian bases, no new U.S. bases

How soon you forget -- it was only last week when you were yammering on and on about SEVEN "new US military bases".

You seem to have an allergic reaction to facts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4192851&mesg_id=4194467

[Peace Patriot]

117. You think the Pentagon is not going to be controlling those bases, you are a fool. nt

[Zorro]

118. You obviously have no experience and no idea what you're talking about

You really don't know anything about how these agreements work, do you?

You are no Cassandra, making dire predictions of future events.

You're more of an Assandra, making shit up from tenuous speculations and expecting everyone to agree with your ignorant assumptions.

[AlphaCentauri]

134. Burrito here is a book for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Veins_of_Latin_America

[ronnie624]

119. The source you cited confirms

that the U.S. will now have access to AT LEAST seven military facilities that it did not have before:

The agreement facilitates U.S. access to three Colombian air force bases, located at Palanquero, Apiay, and Malambo. The agreement also permits access to two naval bases and two army installations, and other Colombian military facilities if mutually agreed.

I predict future agreements between the U.S. and Colombian governments.

[wayne fontes]

120. Huh

The reported specifically says <i>continued access</i> in the third paragraph. It also mentions that the cap on US personnel (1400), which includes both military and civilian contractors. The argument which has been put forward on this thread is that these bases are part of a plan to invade Venezuela. Fourteen hundred contractors and military are wholly inadequate to invade a nation of 25,000,000. Including them in an argument that they are part of a planned US invasion is just spin.

[ronnie624]

121. I have never said Colombia will invade Venezuela.

Only that the U.S. will use Colombia as a base of operations for executing its interventionist policies in Latin America, with a particular focus at this time on Venezuela. The U.S. government now has seven 'new' positions from which to operate. There is a well documented century long history that supports my claim.

I have to go to work now. See you later.

[Zorro]

122. So how about documenting the century of US interventionist policies in Latin America?

[Judi Lynn]

127. Here's one list among many. Some are longer, clearly.

History of U.S. Interventions in Latin America

Location | Period | Type of Force | Comments on U.S. Role

Argentina 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected
Chile 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels
Haiti 1891 Troops Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated
Nicaragua 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields
Panama 1895 Naval, troops Marines land in Colombian province
Nicaragua 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto
Cuba 1898- Naval, troops Seized from Spain, U.S. still holds Navy base at Guantanamo
Puerto Rico 1898- Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues
Nicaragua 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur
Nicaragua 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields
Honduras 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution
Dominican Republic 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution
Cuba 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election
Nicaragua 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up
Honduras 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
Panama 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest
Nicaragua 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto
Honduras 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war
Cuba 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in Havana
Panama 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election
Honduras 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests
Nicaragua 1912-33 Troops, bombing 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas
Mexico 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution
Dominican Republic 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo
Mexico 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists
Haiti 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts
Dominican Republic 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation
Cuba 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate
Panama 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections
Honduras 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign
Guatemala 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists
Costa Rica 1921 Troops
Panama 1921 Troops
Honduras 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife
Panama 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike
El Salvador 1932 Naval Warships sent during Faribundo Marti revolt
Uruguay 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength
Puerto Rico 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce
Guatemala 1954-? Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion and coup d'Etat after newly elected government nationalizes unused U.S.'s United Fruit Company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua; long-term result: 200,000 murdered
Panama 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation
Cuba 1961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails
Cuba 1962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union
Panama 1964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return
Dominican Republic 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign
Guatemala 1966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels
Chile 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts democratically elected Marxist president
El Salvador 1981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash; long-term result: 75,000 murdered and destruction of popular movement
Nicaragua 1981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution; result: 50,000 murdered
Honduras 1982-90 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders
Grenada 1983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution
Bolivia 1987 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region
Panama 1989 Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed
Haiti 1994-95 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup
Venezuela 2002 Command operation Failed coup attempt to remove left-populist president Hugo Chavez
Haiti 2004- Troops Removal of democratically elected President Aristide; troops occupy country

http://www2.truman.edu/~marc/resources/interventions.html

[Zorro]

128. Apparently you consider every US action to protect its citizens and interests

as an "intervention" to be condemned. No doubt you likewise consider actions against Somali pirates to be interventions.

Your laundry-list is full of holes, but that's not surprising for someone who consistently promotes an anti-US agenda.

[Judi Lynn]

129. Question was:"So how about documenting the century of US interventionist policies in Latin America?"

Someone supplies a partial list, you surmise it's "full of holes," then accuse me of being anti-American.

Nice work, wizard!http://fancydressheaven.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/bmz_cache/a/aece6ae92fb1f4b2c875991fe5739425.image.300x450.jpg

[Zorro]

130. No surmise at all

Look at just a few of your listed "intervention" nuggets:

Mexico 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution. Yeah, a terrible intervention there. Rescuing US citizens.

Mexico 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists. Another fine example of US intervention. Chasing Pancho Villa after he attacks settlements in the US.

Cuba 1962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union. Yeah, no problem with Cuba allowing nuclear tipped missiles to be installed and aimed at the US!

Bolivia 1987 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region. Were US troops there without the approval of the Bolivian government?

Haiti 2004- Troops Removal of democratically elected President Aristide; troops occupy country. Would it have been better to leave Aristide to be macheted by the rebels who were taking over the country?

As I said, full of holes. You must love those Somali pirates.

[EFerrari]

131. Are you claiming Aristide was RESCUED by the US and France?

You deserve some kind of recognition for forwarding such mendacity. Seriously, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever read on DU.

[Zorro]

133. More hyperbole from you

Seriously, you've come up with much more disgusting justifications for your hero's idiotic comments.

Supporting Hugo's declaration that Carlos the Jackal was a freedom fighter, for one.

[EFerrari]

136. I bet you say that to all the girls.

lol

[Peace Patriot]

135. The U.S./Colombia agreement is a mechanism for ESCALATION,

and, when the time is ripe, that is what will occur, i.e., when the Colombian military (no doubt with the Pentagon's help) is able to manufacture the "Gulf of Tonkin"-type incident, along the Colombia-Venezuela border, which they are already working on, and which is more and more likely to involve U.S. troops and/or 'contractors' as more and more U.S. troops and 'contractors' are deployed to Colombia. The other likely spot for the "Gulf of Tonkin" trigger is Venezuela's oil coast, with the U.S. already having deployed spy planes from the Dutch islands for illegal flyovers of Venezuelan territory, the reconstitution of the U.S. 4th Fleet in the Caribbean and the new U.S./Colombia military base being built on the tip of Guajira peninsula, overlooking the Gulf of Venezuela and Venezuela's main oil reserves, facilities and shipping.

In 1964, the U.S. navy manufactured an incident in the Gulf of Tonkin, in Vietnam, purported to be North Vietnamese patrol boats shooting at a U.S. war ship without provocation. This was false information. But INSTANTLY, the U.S. Congress ESCALATED what had been a slow buildup of U.S. forces in South Vietnam into a full scale war--in which TWO MILLION Southeast Asians and over 55,000 U.S. troops eventually died. They SOLD that early U.S. military presence in South Vietnam as "just a few advisers" supposedly "aiding" the South Vietnamese army (a creation of the Pentagon and the CIA, as was the South Vietnamese government--a government as corrupt as the one in Colombia). The U.S. is doing the same thing in Colombia. We are larding Colombia with $6 BILLION in military aid, and the current U.S. military personnel and 'contractors' are training these Colombian forces, and coordinating them with U.S. forces and technology. The new agreement DOUBLES this U.S. military presence, and contains the mechanism for escalation at any time. What is all this for? A USAF document, recently uncovered, states that it is for "full spectrum military operations" in the "region" (not just in Colombia) to deal with threats from drugs, "terrorism" AND "anti-U.S. countries"!

The similarities to Vietnam are truly disturbing. If this is what the Pentagon is planning--Vietnam deja vu all over again--one difference may be that the Colombian military does more of the fighting than the South Vietnamese military did, but it would still be a situation in which a proxy army is used as a front for U.S./Pentagon goals. Another difference may be that fascist secessionists within the northern oil region of Venezuela declare their "independence" and invite the U.S. and Colombian militaries into their country to "support" their "freedom fight." Donald Rumsfeld alluded to this strategy in an op-ed in the Washington Post in December 2007, entitled "The Smart Way to Defeat Tyrants Like Chavez," in which he urged "swift action" by the U.S. in support of "friends and allies" in South America. What did he mean by "swift action"? And in "support" of whom?

One clue may be that, one year later (in 9/08), the U.S. embassy and the DEA in Bolivia funded and supported white separatists in the gas/oil rich eastern provinces, who tried to secede from the Morales government. Another clue: Rafael Correa, president of Ecuador, publicly stated, around the same time, that there was a coordinated rightwing strategy of secession in three countries: Ecuador, Bolivia, Venezuela. Fascist politicians in the northern oil regions of both Venezuela and Ecuador (adjacent to Colombia to the south) openly talk of secession. And we can be sure that USAID and other funds are going to these groups.

You know, I don't know what the U.S. government will do. I am not a seer, and we, the citizens of the U.S., are not privy to our corporate rulers' war plans until they are sprung upon us. But I know what the U.S. government has done, and I can certainly see the visible parts of this U.S. military buildup in Colombia and in the region, and make an educated GUESS at what they are FOR. They are not for the "war on drugs." That is laughable. They are not for "terrorism." That is a phantom in Latin America--except for one situation, Colombia's 40+ year internal civil war with the born-in-Colombia FARC guerillas. In my opinion, that civil war is none of our business. South America's leaders are perfectly capable of brokering a peaceful settlement of Colombia's civil war--and have in fact tried to do so--and have been continually stymied by Colombian militarism, paid for and encouraged by the USA.

So what are SEVEN new U.S. military bases in Colombia, with provision for unlimited escalation of U.S. forces, U.S. military use of ALL civilian airports and other facilities in Colombia, a U.S./Colombia base overlooking the Gulf of Venezuela, $6 BILLION in military aid to Colombia (and counting), two new U.S. military bases in Panama, the reconstitution of the U.S. 4th Fleet in the Caribbean, and all the other existing U.S. military bases and activities in the region, **FOR**?

Is this just war profiteering? The manufacturing of phantom threats to further raid the federal treasury for the war industry? Is this just bullying--trying to force countries in the region to provide our global corporate predators with their resources and slave labor? Or is this a WAR PLAN--to actually commandeer the Central America/Caribbean/northern South America region and its resources? The Honduran coup, and this U.S./Colombia military agreement argue for a war plan. (By the Honduran rightwing military coup, the Pentagon secured its military base in Honduras, which President Zelaya had proposed converting to a commercial airport. The Pentagon also has naval facilities in Honduras. A president of Honduras allied with Venezuela was an inconvenience, if, as has happened before, Honduras is to be used as a "lily pad" country for U.S. aggression in the region.)

The military wisdom of the 1950s was to "never get involved in a land war in Asia." The military wisdom of countless ages was to "never get involved in a war in Afghanistan"--the "graveyard of empires." The Pentagon OFTEN violates common sense. They OFTEN ignore cooler and wiser heads. YOU may think that a U.S. oil war in South America is crazy, impractical, stupid, wasteful, unjustifiable, immoral, illegal and a real big "loser." When did that ever stop the Pentagon from doing it?

[Socal31]

105. Well...

I heard that before Hugego goes to bed, someone has to come in and look under it for those scary Yankees!