Muslims, Christians set homes ablaze in Egypt

[demoleft]

Source: reuters

CAIRO, (Reuters) - Muslims and Christians set fire to each others' homes and shops near the southern Egyptian town of Nagaa Hamady on Saturday, three days after a gunman killed six Coptic Christians in a drive-by shooting, security sources said.

"Four houses and a shop belonging to Christians in the village of Tiraks were set on fire by Muslims, while four shops owned by Muslims in the village of al-Bahgorah were set on fire by Christians," a security source said. The villages are near Nagaa Hamady.

Six people, Christian and Muslim, were injured in the fires, they added.
...
Christians account for about 10 percent of Egypt's predominantly Muslim population of about 78 million. Sectarian violence is rare, but disputes over issues including land or women occasionally erupt.



Read more: http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=1&id=19452

[msongs]

1. earth's 2 leading forces for evil duke it out in egypt. nt

[EmeraldCityGrl]

22. Someday the atheists will rule the world...

maybe then there will be peace.

[naaman fletcher]

25. I hope so, but I doubt it.

They will invent new reasons to fight, namely plunder. In my opinion religion is only the guise for the baser instinct of plunder and control. I just finished reading a book about the Congo Free State. None of the people who committed those atrocities were doing it for religious reasons, they just used religion as cover for their activities.

The Soviets were of course Atheists, as were other murderous governments.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

26. very true.

[Zhade]

37. Only religion enables people to use baseless assertions as justification for atrocity.

Stalin didn't commit his crimes in the name of atheism, but of the state and himself.

[robo50]

29. Atheists CAN'T do any worse than these theistic folks have done

How many wars have there been over religion? I can't count that high, (or at least I don't want to).

[MellowDem]

35. Name them...

seriously, wikipedia "list of all wars in history" and count how many were just "over religion". I've tried it, and there aren't many. Even the crusades wouldn't have happened without some very "secular" political happenings.

As for examples of atheists leading societies... Communist China and Soviet Russia, two societies who by far slaughtered the most people (mostly their own) in the 21st century. But me saying that this was an example that atheism was "evil" has about as much logic as the saying that religion is "evil".

[BolivarianHero]

31. Interesting fact about Egypt...

Egypt is the only country whose Socialist International affiliate persecutes atheists.

[MellowDem]

34. Remember Soviet Russia and Communist China?

Religion isn't "evil", but that kind of dogmatic thinking is shared by extremists of all sorts. Religion is mostly based in culture, and if you can't see that, you don't really understand the world. A culture without religion can still be quite cruel and inhumane, even more so, than most other socities on Earth, as recent history has obviously shown us.

[defendandprotect]

2. Wouldn't have any connection to US prompting of new "Crusades" . .. would it???

[naaman fletcher]

4. yep, everything is the fault of the US.

If it wasn't for us, everyone, including radical muslims, would all be dancing around singing "Shiny Happy People" and hugging each other.

[iandhr]

5. Thank you

for talking sence.

[The Stranger]

7. Interesting that you start talking about "radical muslims,"

when there is nothing like that in the original post. In fact, the original poster omitted:

Egypt's government said the violence was not sectarian and was an isolated incident.

[naaman fletcher]

10. yes, i put it there to show the absurdity of people

who assume that everything is the fault of the US. Radical muslims are not the only group that kills people, just the most obvious example.

[defendandprotect]

16. Evidently you don't understand that US/CIA helped create

Taliban/Al Qaeda --

And, yes, much that is happening is the fault of the US --

Who's running drones over Pakistan? Russia?

Who has played the war games endlessly? From Vietnam to Gulf War I and II to Afghanistan/Iraq?

Wake up and grow up --

And if you actually want to stretch your mind to understand how US has created yet another

primary use of organized religion then understand that GOP gave start up funds for Christian

Coalition in 1980's . . . Scaife and other right wingers financed Dobson's organization and

Bauer's organization. It's all as phony as their FreedomWorks/"teabaggers" --


And here's the story on US/CIA creating Taliban/Al Qaeda -- which, btw, we financed up to 9/11.

And, a second story about US/CIA creating, writing, printing text books teaching VIOLENT

Islam and spreading them into the Middle East --

Organized patriarchal religion is the underpinning for patriarchy -

and has long been the primary tool of conquest -- from the native Americans here to

Hawaii -- and on and on --



FIRST PART OF THIS DEALS WITH HOW US/CIA CREATED TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA . . .
TO BAIT RUSSIANS INTO AFGHANISTAN . . .!!!

AND THIS IS ACCORDING TO CARTER'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI . . .
IN FACT AS TOLD TO O'REILLY ON HIS SHOW A FEW YEARS AGO AND REPEATED QUITE OFTEN
SINCE THEN--

SECOND PART DEALS WITH THE TEXTBOOKS --



The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i... ...


---------------------------------------------------

SECOND PART --


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h...

[naaman fletcher]

19. so?

So, before the US existed there was global peace?

[defendandprotect]

21. Not since patriarchy has existed . . . but before that ... yes!

Organized patriarchal religion is the underpinning for patriarchy --

And historically used as a tool of conquest --

which I'm sure you're familiar with . . . right?

[naaman fletcher]

23. are you serious?

And yes, I am familiar with all this. now, usually when someone says "patriarchy" I tune them out, but for the sake of discussion, can you pin a year as to when we all get along just fine and didn't kill each other?


Since you agree that there was violence and killing before the US came along, why are you so certain that all the violence going on in the world now is our fault?

[defendandprotect]

27. If you're serious . . .

I'd suggest you read my other posts here -- especially those on US/CIA creating

the Taliban/Al Qaeda and how we used them in Afghanistan to "bait the Russians into

Afghanistan . . . in hopes of giving them a Vietnam type experience."

Also on how US wrote and printed the books creating VIOLENT Islamic teachings and

spread these concepts throughout Middle East.

As for this question ...

And yes, I am familiar with all this. now, usually when someone says "patriarchy" I tune them out, but for the sake of discussion, can you pin a year as to when we all get along just fine and didn't kill each other?

I happen to have been beginning to review some of my journals
I've been keeping for 20 years -- kind of a year end thing -- but have been interrupted.
Would be happy to discuss this even in a thread at some point. Just not at this moment.
Just happen to have come across that history -- could be very specific, in fact.

I'd recommend if you are curious about it to try to come upon Elizabeth Gould Davis' book . . .
The First Sex -- Your library might have it -- mine does. Written in 1971.

But, briefly, certainly there was the Golden Age, the Bronze Age . . . mainly peaceful.
It is patriarchy which turned the world upside down with its violence.

Here's something from my notes --

"In a word, life begins as female. The female is not only the primary and original sex but
continues throughout as the main trunk . . .
the further development of life serves to strengthen this gynaecocentric -- female-centered -
point of view. Yet statements of the androcentric - malecentered - theory are met with everywhere.
Not only do philosophers and popular writers never tire of repeating its main
propositions but anthropologists and biologists will go out of their way to defend it whilepoint of view. at the same time heaping up facts that really contradict it and strongly support the
gynaecocentric theory . . .

The androcentric theory . . . is deeply stamped upon the popular mind and the history of
human thought has demonstrated many times that scarsely any number of facts opposed to such
a world view can shake it."
Lester Frank Ward

"Biologically man is a mutant of woman --
The Y Chromosome a stunted X

Woman was first in the discovery of the arts and sciences,
first in the march towards civilization, and still first
according to geneticists and biologists, in physical efficiency."

Not only did men turn the world upside down with their violence, they reversed all myth.

Just got lost reading some of it ...

"The earliest human family consited of a woman and her children --

Fatherhood and the idea of permanent mating were very late comeers to human history.

The word for "father" does not even exist in the original Indo-European language"

Fatherhood was unknown even as recently as 5,000 years ago."

A little from the Bible -- which was written to cement patriarchy . . .

though much still could not be hidden ...

Sarah ranked higher than her husband Abraham --

"The Jews acquired their name not from the father Abraham but from Sarah's son - Israel.
In a patrilinear society the son's name would not have replaced the father's and the Hebrews
would have been known as "Abrahamites," not "Israelites."

"Talmudic scholars, Jewish rabbi's all have long acknowledged that the matriarchs, Sarah,
Rebecca, Rachel and Leah were more important persons than their consorts - Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob. Yet post exiles patriarchal editors of the O.T. concealed the fact very successfully.

For that reason, it is curious that at leastd one important Queen of Israel was allowed to
retain her rank and importance in the O.T. -- Deborah was leftas she had always been "with
dominion over the mighty." In the O.T. Book of Judges, Deborah is a judge in Israel and she
herself proclaims her status as head of the tribe. She is the reigning Queen of the People.

Briefly, in the new testament as well as the old it is obvious that the genealogy of Jesus
was originally and correctly the genealogy not of Josephy -- but of MARY.
Jesus owes his authority and his royal blood to his mother, Mary, who was "a descendent of the
tribe of Judah and the royal house of David." Only Luke's gospel mentions Mary's lineage; the
other gospels having transferred Mary's genealogy to Joseph.
YET . . . Joseph in Christian belief had no part in Jesus' conception.
HOW then could Jesus have traced his Davidic ancestry thru Joseph who was not his father?

"In the legends, Herod is blamed for having destroyed Mary's family records in order to conceal
the royal blood of Jesus.
Far more likely, however that the transfer of Mary's family tree to Joseph was the result of
orders to "play Mary down" in accordance with the new Pauline Christian doctrine of the
unimportance and expendability of women."

Also recall in the Bibical myth "the natural course of events that women gave birth to men is
reversed" (Erich Fromn)
"Eve is born from Adam's rib" . . . "God creates the world."

Women's creative powers are not necesary.

Ram vs Bull --

"To this day (Reik) Pilgrims go to mecca to kiss this ancient image of the "Great Arabian
Goddess."

Yet, it was these people -- Semitic Nomads -- cultureless and semi-civilized who first upset civilization in the ancient east by overthrowing the city, state and later by dethroning the
ancient goddess and enthroning male strife in the form of Yahweh.

"It was stated and proved long ago by the historians (Reik) "that the Hebrew tribes, like
their neighboring nations, worshipped a ... goddess ... and only the severe regime of Yahweh
suppressed the ancient cult of which traces still survive in the O.T."

"During their captivity in Babylon the Jews heard the legend of TIAMAT and the account of the
creation of the world as written in the "Enuma Elish." In the oldest civilization yet
discovered, the Sumerian, the Creator of th eniveerse is TIAMAT, the goddess who later became
Islitar. The Jews decidedto include this myth in their national literature, with the one
difference that Tiamat must become a god, and their own ancient goddess Iahu, or Anat, must
be completely abolished."

Okay, that's enough review for tonight -- it would be good to discuss these things at some
future time in a thread --

And just for a closing question . . . why would you "tune someone out if they mention
patriarchy" . . . ???

Patriarchy and violence are mirror images of one another --

Meanwhile --

Happy New Year -- we hope!


:)

[naaman fletcher]

30. yeah i read that..

So why can't you just answer the questions that I ask you? The reason that I tune out people who say patriarchy is precisely what you are doing here.. you can't/won't just engage in simple conversation. You just post the same stuff over and over and over.

So, when did patriarchy start all the worlds violence? What year? the year 0? 1000 BC? when?

[defendandprotect]

33. About 50,000 years ago . . .

[Sultana]

11. You've got to be kidding me

Why do you hate the US so much?

[defendandprotect]

17. You must be kidding me... Do you recall Bush using the term "Crusade" in his wars?

Do you note that these villagers in this article are being referred to

as "Christians" and "Muslims" . . . certainly RELIGIOUS designations --

and see my post above re US/CIA creating the Taliban/Al Qaeda . . .

I guess CIA coups and warmongering for resources all over the planet has escaped

your notice????

:eyes:

[Dappleganger]

14. Don't tell me, another person who disdains knowing even a scant history

of that region.

[defendandprotect]

18. See my post above for the history of US/CIA creation of Taliban/Al Qaeda . . .

and more -- the very text books which were teaching VIOLENT Islam to Middle

Easterners --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4217748&mesg_id=4218459

[No Elephants]

3. Many believe the Copts to be the original Christians. They are greatly outnumbered in Egypt.

I hope they are not eliminated.

[SkyDaddy7]

6. WONDERFUL!

The "Religion of Peace" vs the "Religion of Brotherly Love" going head to head!

[madrchsod]

9. the coptic church has never waged war or enslaved people for an empire

[SkyDaddy7]

15. Correct!

They have always lived under Islamic Powers...The only thing keeping our Christians from running wild in America is our secular Government. And they still have a strangle hold on our country!

If you think the Coptic Church in a position of power would not be oppressive to women & gays and anyone that did not think like them then I have no idea what to say...Just read what they say. The Desert Religions (Judaism, Christianity & Islam) are all about forcing their world view on everyone they can...It is written in their sacred text! These are very dangerous forms of Bronze Age type governments & world views. Not compatible with today's more advanced society.

As far as I am concerned any religion, government or ideology that looks down on certain groups of people is ABSURD and deserves no respect at all! And all 3 of these religions do this!

[madrchsod]

8. the coptic church is the first christian church....

the church was created within a hundred years of christ`s "death". one of the basic tenants of the church is a complete separation of church and state and this tenant has served them well through out the centuries. when the muslims invaded and conquered Egypt they made the coptic's pay a tax instead of converting to islam. there have problems over the years between individuals of the two religions but neither officially has declared "war" against each other.

there has been increased tension in the recent years because of the radical fundamentalism in the islamic faith. i`m sure the leaders of both religions are not going to let this disrupt their mutual respect and peace. this could be a dispute over land,trade,and yes..women.


contrary to popular belief there are christians that do believe in strict separation of church and state and have never waged war in the name of jesus or the god of abraham.

[defendandprotect]

20. Are you saying that it isn't based on male-supremacy and one "all male god" . .???

[Dappleganger]

12. This has been ongoing for centuries.

[Dappleganger]

13. Here's another recent event which caused a lot of disruption...

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/5149/egypt-uses-swine-flu-to-attack-christian-farmers-kill-their-pigs/

That pretty much destroyed the livelihood for a number of Coptics (which is pretty bad already). Coptics are treated as 2nd-class citizens here.

[Phoonzang]

24. They really should have continued worshiping Ra.... nt

[Trajan]

28. Battle of the Sectaries ...

Old as the hills ....


"Purge me, 0 Caesar, the earth of heretics, and I in return will give thee heaven. Stand by me in putting down the heretics and I will stand by thee in putting down the Persians."

In the spirit of this utterance, steps were taken within a few days by the new prelate to suppress the assemblies of the Arians; these, by a bold stroke of policy, anticipated his action by themselves setting fire to their meetinghouse, Nestorius being forthwith nicknamed "The Incendiary."

[hatrack]

32. Anybody remember Ken-L-Ration? "My God's better than your God, my God's better than yours . . .

My God's better 'cause He is Allah/Yahweh
My God's better than yours!"

[Zhade]

36. Ahhhhhh, religion. Magical thinking that kills.

At least no one dies in the name of Santa or the Tooth Fairy.