Chavez says U.S. occupying Haiti in name of aid

[jefferson_dem]

Source: Reuters

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez on Sunday accused the United States of using Tuesday's earthquake in Haiti as a pretext to occupy the devastated Caribbean country.

World | Natural Disasters

"I read that 3,000 soldiers are arriving, Marines armed as if they were going to war. There is not a shortage of guns there, my God. Doctors, medicine, fuel, field hospitals, that's what the United States should send," Chavez said on his weekly television show. "They are occupying Haiti undercover."

"On top of that, you don't see them in the streets. Are they picking up bodies? ... Are they looking for the injured? You don't see them. I haven't seen them. Where are they?"

A perennial foe of U.S. "imperialism," Chavez said he did not wish to diminish the humanitarian effort made by the United States and was only questioning the need for so many troops.

The United States is sending more than 5,000 Marines and soldiers to Haiti, and a hospital ship is due to arrive later this week.

On Sunday the country's president said U.S. troops would help keep order on Haiti's increasingly lawless streets.


Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60G2DW20100117

---

:crazy:

[Itchinjim]

1. Shut up Hugo.

[skyounkin]

10. LOL- I wish I could rec' individual posts

[Judi Lynn]

28. Convey that sentiment to the corporate media which write sleazy stories every time he burps.

Use your head and consider how you would be portrayed by opposition media whose entire purpose is to destabilize you every hour, every day of the year.

Doesn't take a genius, and what you have to offer the world would be very comical after they hard-spin everything you say every day.

What other President has the media gossiping about him around the clock? Any of the US supported monsters, men who boil their political prisoners alive, or men who have thrown them out of airplanes, helicopters, have taken babies from their political prisoner mothers' wombs, killed the mothers, given the babies out as gifts to political cronies, have tortured to death vast numbers of political prisoners, have leveled entire villages in Central America, killing hundreds of thousands?

Instead of spewing your designed-for-idiots disinformation, why not transform your life by yammering about something you actually understand?

[WriteDown]

29. Did you post on the right thread?

:shrug:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

349. +1

[justinaforjustice]

38. Thanks for the Truth, Judi Lynn!

Most folks in the U.S. are unaware that the U.S. is not only building 7 new bases in Colombia, one right on the border of Venezuela, but also has bases in Curacao, less than a mile from a big Venezuelan port town, as well as bases in Aruba and Guyana, plus the re-commissioned 7th fleet is now in the Caribbean circling Venezuela as well.

Given that the U.S. has illegally invaded Iraq for its oil and threatening Iran as well, it is perfectly understandable that Venezuela is concerned at being surrounded by U.S. weaponry, especially when it has used its planes and drones to spy on Venezuela's military sites.

The U.S. has given Colombia billions of dollars for weapons and other armaments in the last few years and Colombia has been sending its paramilitaries into Venezuela with the objective of destabilizing the government and assassinating Chavez. So Venezuela has many, many reasons to distrust the presence of the U.S. military in Haiti.

Venezuela was one of the first countries to send humanitarian aid to Haiti and will be supplying them with cheap oil as well. Meanwhile, tiny Cuba has sent hundreds of medical personnel to Haiti.

[Zorro]

42. The US is building 7 new bases in Colombia?

Reconstituting/re-commissioning the 7th Fleet?

Curacao is less than a mile from a big Venezuelan port town?

I didn't know that. What are your sources?

[boppers]

52. The US is NOT building 7 new bases in Columbia.

You can't find a single link which can accurately say so. The bases already exist, the US is getting *access* to existing bases.

The reason most folks are "unaware" of the situation, is that there's such insane spin (such as "building 7 new bases") that the sources of bizarre accusations have become less trustworthy, as a result of the amount of dishonest statements. In other words, people have become immune to the propaganda because it's been so consistently wrong or misleading.

[Peace Patriot]

73. "The US is getting *access* to existing bases." LOL! You are very naive if you think

the Pentagon is not going to be running those bases. Also, the US/Colombia is building a new base on the Guajira peninsula overlooking and potentially controlling the Gulf of Venezuela, where all of Venezuela's main oil reserves, facilities and shipping are located. The new base is only 20 miles from Venezuela's border (which owns a strip of land going up that peninsula on the east side). This is an extremely provocative action.

I've followed the US/Colombia military agreement closely and what it looks like to me is South Vietnam, 1963. 1,500 "U.S. military advisors," with escalation clauses--easily triggered by some new "Gulf of Tonkin"-type incident; these US soldiers and US 'contractors' are to have full diplomatic immunity for whatever they do in Colombia; the US military is to have unlimited *access* to all civilian airports in Colombia as well. Not good. This is not good at all. Also, one researcher uncovered a USAF document which said that the purpose of this greatly increased U.S. military presence in Colombia is "full spectrum" U.S. military operations in the "Southern Cone," to deal with drug trafficking, "terrorism," and "anti-US countries."

What the hell are we doing gaining *access* to SEVEN military bases in Colombia? Building a base that could blockade the Gulf of Venezuela? Reconstituting the US 4th Fleet (mothballed since WW II)? Running illegal AF flights over Venezuelan territory? What is all this FOR?

Drug trafficking? Don't make me laugh.

I've been around a long time, and this is what it looks like to me: the beginning of the Vietnam War.

[boppers]

117. What is it for? Easily answered.

The USAF document covers it. Full spectrum operations in the South American theater.

We have many similar situations around the globe, so when situations go south, we already have presence and equipment in the area. What makes this different is that we don't have some nut-job in, say, Korea, using Japan bases to rile up his people and claim that their poverty and gross government mis-management is the fault of the US.

Oh... wait...

Maybe the Rammstein base in Germany is a better example.

[ChangoLoa]

156. No man, it's like Vietnam!

The progressive peasant militias are almost overrunning the fascist dictatorship in Colombia. They want to create a democracy for the people^^. And there's a gulf too, an incident could happen anytime. The US will invade Venezuela and take control, thanks to the 40% of fascist people who live there. They hate their country and wish to sell it. A clear case of internal enemies.

[ProudDad]

215. And the clueless, historically challenged

on bended knee naivete award for the night goes to...

"boppers" and his/her blind support for super hawk bullshit...

Congratulations...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Follow the money...the USAmerikan Empire is after your resources, this is just another example.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

350. Quite frankly, you haven't posted anything that refutes boppers claims.

[Judi Lynn]

257. It's looking stranger than ever, as if they are going to shift into a more visible

political mode soon, and the drug part is going to fade away, leaving the stark truth that they're determined to head right on back to the '60's. '70's, '80's all over, if they can manage it, back to the good old days of CIA, USAID, you name it to run all the old programs which worked for them with Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia, Central America, etc......

Surprising to see this in the Independent, which you discussed in the L.A. forum:

US waves white flag in disastrous 'war on drugs'

After 40 years, Washington is quietly giving up on a futile battle that has spread corruption and destroyed thousands of lives

By Hugh O'Shaughnessy
Sunday, 17 January 2010

After 40 years of defeat and failure, America's "war on drugs" is being buried in the same fashion as it was born – amid bloodshed, confusion, corruption and scandal. US agents are being pulled from South America; Washington is putting its narcotics policy under review, and a newly confident region is no longer prepared to swallow its fatal Prohibition error. Indeed, after the expenditure of billions of dollars and the violent deaths of tens of thousands of people, a suitable epitaph for America's longest "war" may well be the plan, in Bolivia, for every family to be given the right to grow coca in its own backyard.

The "war", declared unilaterally throughout the world by Richard Nixon in 1969, is expiring as its strategists start discarding plans that have proved futile over four decades: they are preparing to withdraw their agents from narcotics battlefields from Colombia to Afghanistan and beginning to coach them in the art of trumpeting victory and melting away into anonymous defeat. Not surprisingly, the new strategy is being gingerly aired in the media of the US establishment, from The Wall Street Journal to the Miami Herald.

Prospects in the new decade are thus opening up for vast amounts of useless government expenditure being reassigned to the treatment of addicts instead of their capture and imprisonment. And, no less important, the ever-expanding balloon of corruption that the "war" has brought to heads of government, armies and police forces wherever it has been waged may slowly start to deflate.

Prepare to shed a tear over the loss of revenue that eventual decriminalisation of narcotics could bring to the traffickers, large and small, and to the contractors who have been making good money building and running the new prisons that help to bankrupt governments – in the US in particular, where drug offenders – principally small retailers and seldom the rich and important wholesalers – have helped to push the prison population to 1,600,000; their imprisonment is already straining federal and state budgets. In Mississippi, where drug offenders once had to serve 85 per cent of their sentences, they are now being required to serve less than a quarter. California has been ordered to release 40,000 inmates because its prisons are hugely overcrowded.

More:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-waves-white-flag-in-disastrous-war-on-drugs-1870218.html

~~~~~~~~~
We can be 100% certain there will be NO cuts in personnel from those bases they secured only recently, having the plans announced during the _Bush occupation of the White House and putting it all in motion recently. Drop or reduce the drug war? The troops will remain. The drug war was only the cover story, anyway. It has ALWAYS been to destroy the opposition to right-wing interests.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

351. Look, I know you're prone to believing the absolute worst about the U.S.' intentions in L.A.

however, if you look at this one logically, it makes perfect sense that, since the U.S. has lost bases in other areas of Latin America, it would seek to make up for that by increasing its strength in areas of L.A. that continue to welcome its presence. In and of itself, that's nothing sinister. It's just a shift in logistics.

[Judi Lynn]

255. It's terrific seeing your comments, justinaforjustice. We have no one here who's more informed

due to personal experience than you are, and I'm sure of that.

Had no idea Curacao was that close, and I didn't know about the ones in Aruba and Guyana. So glad to find out about it.
It's very unpleasant thinking of how blatant this really is, three bases in a tiny cluster all very close to the Venezuelan coastline. Creepy, isn't it?

We've heard a lot about the Colombian paras over the last three years, and the fact some of them have been called there by Venezuelan opposition, like the violence-proponent, "father" of guarimba, Roberto Alonso. I just learned he gave a speech closing John McCain's Presidential campaign in Florida, where he has fled after he was caught with all those Colombian paras quartered on his ranch Daktari outside Caracas.

Didn't know fuel would be included in the supplies Venezuela is sending. It will be most appreciated, we all realize.

It's great to read your input whenever you're here. Thank YOU.

[defendandprotect]

284. A Taj Mahal of a US Embassy in Iraq, as well... BUT WE CAN'T AFFORD MEDICAL CARE -- !!!

Nor to take care of our homeless -- our unemployed --

what a disgrace --

[Judi Lynn]

285. It's as large as EIGHTY football fields. Unbelievable.

Tne New Embassy in Iraq
http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/NEWUSEMBASSYINIRAQ.HTML

[defendandprotect]

298. Everyone should see this -- it should be a separate thread -- K&R . . .

Thank you --

I scanned it quickly -- didn't see a figure -- $750 million PLUS as I recall/???

Thank you, Judi!

My husband walked by and said . . . "Are we crazy?"

Nothing like this stuff to bring the kind of truth that zooms thru your body!

Sad -- sad !!

[PacerLJ35]

295. Interesting geography...

"but also has bases in Curacao, less than a mile from a big Venezuelan port town"

I say it's interesting, considering the island of Curacao is approximately 20 miles off the coast of Venezuela.

[rd_kent]

531. justinaforjustice, you could not be MORE wrong about EVERYTHING you posted.

The 7th fleet is in Japan, always has been.

Please provide links for where the US is building bases in all the places you named.

And Curacao is an island50 miles from the coast.



Why so ignorant?

[Pavulon]

85. Poor chavistas. Torn between the Democratic President, UN, and world

trying to help millions of people suffering and a loudmouthed asshole. Man how will you ever decide which side of this to land on. Good look with that decision.

Your guy is cooked, he has fucked his economy, fucked any respect he had in the world stage, and is a exposed as a hollow fat braying jackass.

cheers. frog soup done, enjoy. I am.

[Wilms]

92. That's not discussion. It's insult.

I think it possible for you to strongly disagree without treating a fellow DUer with such disrespect.

Please try.

[Pavulon]

94. No it really is the topic. He insults harry reid, insults obama, and now adds this gem

there is a nice little group of disciples that follow this guy like he was water walking che jesus. Now their guy, who has shown signs of his true colors for years, is pissing on us. So now that he says we and the rest of the world are invading lets here hes merry band denounce it as horse shit domestic politics at the expense of millions of suffering people.

What is worse is that some may believe this slime and make UN operations more dangerous.

[Wilms]

102. One of my rules is to be a lot more impressed by facts than by a poster's enthusiasm.

I don't have to hang on every breath of Chavez just the same.

But I never get the sense that you acknowledge U.S. history in the region. Or considered SouthCom's "mission". And such presentations bounce right off you as they don't square with your own disciplining rhetoric assailing Chavez.

You can add Bolivia and Nicaragua to those expressly wary. And a study of the history of natural disasters and 'spooks' moving in will also support a general concern. Meanwhile, many other nations have accused the U.S. of "horse shit...politics at the expense of millions of suffering people" for the way they took over the airport. And I'm not even saying I'd agree. Someone has got to run it.

[Pavulon]

108. Here is a fact. The cia ha fucked over every nation at least once

but they fuck us over far more often. They are everywhere. That is their job, they dont do it all that well. We flipped governments in LA during the cold war as did the USSR. Chavez is a moron, he has been busy talking shit about incursions, taking over grocery stores, and now this. Meanwhile his economy is fucked, power is failing, and the currency just shit. Bad for me because companies that do business there now have to pay more for our goods.

My purpose for posting in this thread is to help his followers see how their guy is acting on the world stage. Bushlike.

[Wilms]

114. "but they fuck us over far more often"?

The last time VZ messed with the U.S. was when Chavez gave heating oil to poor people.

"Bad for me because companies that do business there now have to pay more for our goods." So this is real personal for you and your pocket book which of course comes before the VZ peeps and explains your rants. I got that all now.

And you come here and rip into posters like Judy Lynn who meticulously researches and tirelessly educates and insult her as part of your reference-free rants.

I think that sucks. And I think you're on the wrong board. You're an apologists for the things most Democrats eschew.

[hack89]

131. He was talking about the CIA. nt

[Wilms]

143. More to the point, he was talking about outsiders financial interest in VZ.

So he's on record.

[Pavulon]

177. Yep. So we can just seize the prius plant here..

because there is no GM equivalent. good luck with that.

[Pavulon]

132. CIA. CIA incompetence (legacy of ashes)

is my point. That and watching following the reaction of the chavez disciples as he begins to attack the US Democratic President, government, and UN.

Lets see which board's principles are upheld.

[Wilms]

144. Capitalist tool now on record.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

301. Are you saying you believe that US/CIA hasn't aready tried to topple Chavez?

[Pavulon]

312. Did the US invade and would you issue stand down order to the US military?

please answer yes or no.

[PacerLJ35]

397. They aren't going to answer you...

People like that are all complain and no real solution...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

329. So you think Obama wants to assasinate Chavez and take control of Haiti?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

352. That's sort've the thing, apparently these guys really do believe that

or else they wouldn't be defending Chavez on this one...

[sabrina 1]

512. Your thin skin is showing. So, someone insulted the U.S.

What do you have to say about a U.S. coup against the Venezuelan people's choice of president? Isn't that a little more than a verbal insult to an entire nation? And do you think that maybe, considering the people reinstated their president, that the Venezuelan people might the ones with an actual gripe against the U.S. who did actually try to demolish their democracy?

Your priorities are a bit skewed it seems ... name-calling is not a big deal, but actually attacking a country's democracy is a very big deal, yet you have nothing to say about it.

[Pavulon]

194. That would be a major auto manufacturer

it is possible to do business with many customers in a country. That includes the government and divisions of multinationals. Your point>?

[earcandle]

116. worth noting...

[Itchinjim]

137. Shut up Hugo.

[ProudDad]

216. You can't Handle the Truth!!! (n/t)

[Itchinjim]

262. Shut up Hugo.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

353. What "truth"? Chavez was, once again, off the mark on this one.

[diamidue]

168. Great post, Judi Lynn! n/t

[Judi Lynn]

258. Thank you, diamidue. Terrific name. So glad to have you watching Latin American progress with us.n/t

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

348. Take a breath, Judy

I'd buy your argument if you had been able to present the case that Chavez's words were somehow taken out of context in this instance.

[barb162]

164. I'll second that.

That strutting dictator of the month who is so busy closing down opposition TV and radio stations should talk?

[Wilms]

165. Dictators aren't democratically elected and holding office. Chavez is.

Look up "dictator" and get back to us with a definition. For extra credit, tell us who you think should be elected to lead VZ.

This DU. We prize accurate postings because there are many other places to get a bunch of hot air blown at us. K?

[defendandprotect]

300. Didn't bother US/CIA much either in the Allende COUP . . . wake up, America!!!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

355. You believe the Obama Administration is comparable to the Nixon Administration in this regard?

Is that honestly what you're arguing?

[defendandprotect]

422. No one but YOU has made any such suggestion . . .

However --

Do you understand that both Allende and Chavez were ELECTED?????

However, Obama and the Dems have continued to re-fund the Iraq war and INCREASE troops in

Afghanistan!

Obama went for revising the FISA rules on wiretapping -- FISA was already a violation

of our Constitution!

And our nation has a long, long history of imperialism, genocide, enslavement, etal --

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

423. You're speaking about U.S. foreign policy under Obama & U.S. foreign policy under Nixon

as if they're one and the same - continuous, rather than independent. That's not a given. If you sincerely believe it to be true, I'd like to hear your reasoning. With that said...

Yes, I understand that both Allende and Chavez were elected.

Yes, I understand that the Democrats have continued to fund the Iraq War, and frankly, I'm fine with that. I would rather we leave Iraq in stable condition than allow another power vacuum to develop there. I felt differently prior to the massive bloodletting we witnessed in that country during the sectarian violence, but after seeing what they very truly might continue to do to each other without some semblance of order in place, I'd rather we wait things out through the next election before continuing the drawdown.

Yes, I understand that the Democrats are increasing troop levels in Afghanistan. I'm also fine with that, for a number of different reasons. If you feel the need to discuss them with me, I'd be more than happy to do so.

I'm with you on FISA, however.

[defendandprotect]

449. I guess the CIA folded since Allende? Of course, it is continuous . . .

Ike was betrayed by the CIA/intelligence -- what do you think he was talking

about re the dangers of the MIC?

JFK was betrayed by the CIA --

Evidently, you think Obama is in complete charge of the country????

Wake up!


Therefore, YES, Allende and Chavez were legitimate leaders -- and like many other

legitimate leaders -- probably more legitimate than W -- our CIA either overthrew them

in coups, or has planned coups against them.

Same with Diem Brothers -- though that also seems to have been done either without

JFK's knowledge or without his approval.



And, Okay ... so you're telling me re Iraq that either you're willing to have America

continue to support a war of agression based on W's lies -- or you believed those lies?

We've killed almost 2 million Muslims there and you're talking about "previous bloodletting"?

Are you aware we've been bombing Iraq for 20 years now????

WW II was over in 5 years . . . we've been in Afghanistan and Iraq now for 7 or more years!


And, eh -- no -- I really wouldn't want to disucss anything further with you --

Bye --

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

455. Oh Jesus, you act as if the CIA was doing this behind Nixon's back when in reality

he was the one calling the shots. It was a top priority for him - the coup wouldn't have received U.S. support otherwise.

Secondly, I never bought into Bush's claims regarding Iraq and worked actively in the anti-war movement for years to first prevent the invasion and secondly to express my opposition to it. As I said, however, witnessing the absolute bloodbath that Iraq became during the sectarian violence that consumed that country changed my opinion. When we leave, we need to leave a stable Iraq behind. IMO, we're on the right track in this regard.

Third, judging the war in Afghanistan by WWII's timeline is useless. They're very different wars.

[defendandprotect]

481. Again ... it is YOU who are suggesting such nonsense . . .

What I made clear was that both Ike and JFK were betrayed by the CIA --

The "bloodbath" is something that we brought to Iraq -- 2 million Muslims now dead!

Are you living in a cave?

Again -- we were BOMBING IRAQ FOR TWENTY YEARS!!!

Here's a saying about "when we leave" . . . .

"When they came, they had the Bible and we had the land --

When they left, they had the land and we had the Bible" --

Wake up!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

484. Oh "wake up!" yourself.

If a look through declassified intelligence documents makes anything clear, it's that the CIA doesn't act on its own in these matters. The commands always come from elected officials.

Secondly, we didn't bring sectarian strife to Iraq. It was there long before our presence.

Third, you're dancing around the point, are you not? We've all seen the horror a power vacuum in Iraq can result it.

[defendandprotect]

492. obviously . . .

you're happy in your cave and with your coma ...

so I leave you to it!

You're on ignore --

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

508. Ironic

You're the one placing anyone you disagree with on ignore and I'm supposedly the one living in a "cave".

[barb162]

334. He's acting like a dictator, so check the definition yourself for extra credit. n/t

[Wilms]

335. Perhaps according to your sources.

In fact, I took the time to do that. I also looked up conservopedia's version, which was correct, yet they still listed Chavez as a dictator in stark contrast to the definition they agree to. But that's freepers for ya. What's your excuse? :shrug:

So which laws has he violated? How did he attain office? That's a good start.

(Do you really hate democracy?)

[barb162]

336. Because someone was voted in means they can't be a dictator now?

Hitler was voted in too, you know.

Actions, actions, actions....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/05/tens-of-thousands-protest_0_n_278231.html
CARACAS, Venezuela — Tens of thousands marched through Venezuela's capital on Saturday to protest what they call growing authoritarianism by President Hugo Chavez.snip

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2009/sep/08/press-freedom-venezuela
snip But my initial sympathy for Chávez, dating back to the late 1990s, withered away several years ago.

Many liberals, though supportive of the original social aims of successive Chávez governments (and generally pleased about his anti-American stance), have raised questions about the dictatorial measures he has imposed.
snip

Why do you hate democracy again? :eyes:

[Wilms]

337. You still haven't said what laws were broken.

And if you want to look for a contemporary Kristallnacht, consider the U.S., not VZ.

The whole Brooks Brother's Rebellion rich kid demonstrations don't lead me to call Chavez a dictator. Nor does his taking away the over the air license of Faux News VZ while they still keep their cable distribution.

[barb162]

344. Laws don't have to be broken.

New laws can be made or actions can be taken without benefit of law. Hitler, Mussolini, Chavez, Stalin, etal. Power can be handed over to them or they can be voted in. Doesn't make any difference...they're still dictators shitting on personal freedoms in their respective countries.

[Wilms]

346. Oh. So this is about your opinion, rather than fact.

You're entitled.

[barb162]

435. My opinion?

Was Mussolini appointed or did he grab power or was he voted in. Becoming a dictator can happen in all types of ways. No opinion there, just the facts.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

440. While that's true

I haven't seen any evidence of Chavez solidifying his rule, as one would expect from a dictator. By which I mean, elections are still held and monitored by international observers.

I do think he's a loudmouth who constantly rails against the U.S. because he finds it an easy way to garner support in Latin America, but a dictator? Nah.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

356. Do tell

What "contemporary Kristallnacht" has occured in the United States?

[Wilms]

363. You really need that spelled out? n/t

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

366. Yes, enlighten me

What, in recent U.S. history, has been comparable to the destruction of thousands of Jewish owned shops by gangs of armed thugs, the ransacking of thousands of Jewish homes, the beating to death of 91 Jewish people, the assaults of thousands of others, the destruction of 200 synogogues, and the hauling off of 30,000 Jewish people to concentration camps all in the span of a few days?

I'd love to hear this.

[Wilms]

367. The brown ones don't count. I know. n/t

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

369. Again, do tell.

Kristallnacht was essentially a two day riot. Again, in recent U.S. history, during which two day period have 7,000 "brown" owned shops been ransacked? 91 "brown" people beaten to death? 200 "brown" places of worship burned to the ground?

I assume you weren't actually that familiar with the basic facts of the Night of the Broken Glass when you decided to pursue this line of reasoning. If you'd like to retract, I'd understand (and respect your decision). Frankly, you don't have much of a case.

[Wilms]

375. Lots of facts and figures there. You'd think you'd have figured by now.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

376. There's no room for comparison between these two things, my friend.

I'm a bit of a WWII buff, so I already knew that.

[ChangoLoa]

472. Rich kids?!

While I don't think we could call Chavez a "dictator", saying that those demonstrations were made by "rich kids" is pure propaganda. Unfortunately any debate concerning anything about Venezuela falls into the propaganda vs. propaganda mode. You're no better than the so called Venezuelan "Faux News" when you make such a manipulated statement.

Last election: how would you explain that chavistas lost in the 5 most populated states of the country? Do you think Venezuela is a very rich country?

In fact, see by yourself. This is the "opposition"'s Sucre municipality (Petare), one of the biggest in Caracas and one of the most active in recent demonstrations.

[defendandprotect]

450. The biggest dictator around I've been aware of was W Bush . . .

Third world America?

[Posteritatis]

183. {/thread} (nt)

[Peace Patriot]

208. The French Cooperation Minister issued the same criticism today

France seeks clarification of US role in Haiti

Source: Associated Press

France seeks clarification of US role in Haiti
AP Last updated 11:13 19/01/2010

The United Nations must investigate and clarify the dominant US role in earthquake-ravaged Haiti, a French minister said, claiming that international aid efforts were about helping Haiti, not "occupying" it.

US forces last week turned back a French aid plane carrying a field hospital from the damaged, congested airport in the Haitian capital of Port-au-Prince, prompting a complaint from French Cooperation Minister Alain Joyandet. The plane landed safely the following day.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner warned governments and aid groups not to squabble as they try to get their aid into Haiti.

"People always want it to be their plane ... that lands," Kouchner said Monday. "(But) what's important is the fate of the Haitians."

But Joyandet persisted. "This is about helping Haiti, not about occupying Haiti," Joyandet, in Brussels for an EU meeting on Haiti, said on French radio.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4230787

-------------------------------------

Brazil, France, Venezuela--something's going on with this. There was another complaint today about the US military giving priority to landing US soldiers and delaying aid landings.

You will see a lot of idiots below, telling Chavez to "shut up" and worse. But here a French foreign minister is saying exactly the same thing. And Brazil, which commands about 9,000 UN peacekeepers from 17 countries in Haiti, has issued a similar criticism.

I hope this will turn out to be a multinational cooperative effort--and obviously in many ways it already is. This is especially important for the long term, because Haiti's major city is in utter ruins, the human devastation is massive, and it's going to take a long time and a lot of effort by a lot of people and countries just to stabilize the country. It DOES need to be "occupied" for a while as Haitians get back on their feet. This was a devastating blow. But yet another U.S. military occupation? That is not at all a good idea in any way. It needs to be multinational and somebody in the US government had better say that really soon.

I've held off criticism, because the situation is so dire, but with three countries saying the same thing, clearly there is a problem.

[Pavulon]

211. "invasion" did he use that word?

what would say if the order was given to stand down all us military resources and leave. good bye. This is a person bitching about atc. If they dont like it they should just do the job themselves.

I bet you would not have the balls to issue that order and consign tens of thousands of people to die, would you? We walk they die.

And hugo is still an asshole.

[struggle4progress]

253. ... France's cooperation minister, Alain Joyandet, .. suggested .. Monday .. the US was "occupying"

Haiti and urged the UN to "clarify" the US role ...

Page last updated at 06:59 GMT, Tuesday, 19 January 2010
US begins airdrops of food and water into Haiti
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8466973.stm

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

358. That's the kicker, how much did France pledge for relief efforts again?

A whoppin' $14 mil.? :sarcasm:

Don't get me wrong, anything helps, but they're hardly taking a leading role in this. I guess it's easier for them to sit near on sidelines and bitch?

[defendandprotect]

302. True. ... why the hell are we "superpowering" all over this -- let UN and others in!!

[PacerLJ35]

309. The UN is there, along with dozens of other nations flying there

The US isn't prohibiting other operators and nations from flying there. That's just sensationalist journalism.

[defendandprotect]

310. As I understand it, we're controlling everything -- and other relief not being

given access --

Doctors Without Borders are trying to come in from Dominican Republic!!!!

Evidently, everything is being done thru our military . . .

and that's holding up everything --

[PacerLJ35]

313. I know several people that are flying ops into Haiti...the airport is open to anyone brining aid

...aircraft that are being sent away are done so due to lack of room on the ramp. There's a holding pattern established to let aircraft wait. The DWB aircraft were diverted due to lack of space, not because they weren't welcome. They've had several flights make it in, two diverted. My friend Bill who's a flight engineer on MC-130s had to hit a tanker to avoid diverting....he logged 12 flying hours. He said the ramp is FULL of aircraft from all over. He's got pics and I've seen 'em. I'm a C-130 pilot myself and I know a bunch of people from this base that have gone there, all with similar stories...and no axe to grind.

[defendandprotect]

316. Yes . . . but it still looks like US military are the "gatekeepers" . . . Why?

Also, time is crucial --

[PacerLJ35]

320. ICAO requested it

International Civil Aviation Organization, which provides standardization between member states (most of the world), requested US help in setting up air traffic services at MTPP (Port au Prince Intl). The slot times are being issued not by the US military, but by the Haitian Flight Operations Coordination Center, located in Haiti (and being augmented by UN, US and others).

[Pavulon]

314. The evil zionists have set up a hospital!!

and aid is being handled by many agencies, not just the oppressor us military. How did the zionists get a hospital in, conspiracy?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

360. Considering how NO ONE was running the airport when we arrived

I'm okay with that. Someone had to get this crap in order.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

359. The U.N.'s presence in Haiti was devastated by the quake

so I find it rather unlikely that they would have coordinated relief faster than the U.S. God knows they're not known for their speed.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

357. Right, as if anyone trusts France to look out for Haiti's best interests.

[defendandprotect]

299. Why would US/CIA be interested in Venezuela . . . and it's O I L ... !!!!

:evilgrin:

[nini]

2. LOL

this should be a good thread

:popcorn:

[virgogal]

3. Oh,Hugo----enough!

[Better Today]

4. I don't think that's something that can be determined, YET. Though

I fully understand his concerns.

[Zorro]

5. Why would the US want to "occupy" Haiti?

[Yupster]

6. Onama's secret plan

He ran for president to steal the wealth of Haiti.

[Flatulo]

8. Yeah, just what we need - 10 million more welfare recipients. nt

[bitchkitty]

389. Wow. nt

[Robb]

14. Post-quake Haiti, at that.

Shrewd devil.

[EFerrari]

48. There is a great deal of wealth in Haiti held by 1% of the population

and that's not including the American owned sweatshops.

[WriteDown]

201. Obama's masters. We've heard. nt

[Judi Lynn]

260. You've got it backwards. They are favored, supported by the US. They are the puppets.

They are protected by the US, as they pay slave wages to a desperate population with absolutely no choice but to starve if they don't get the couple of bucks from them at the end of an overworked, horrific day.

[WriteDown]

275. So Obama IS their master? nt

[Judi Lynn]

278. Nice try. Don't you ever make yourself ill?

Why not break with your tradition and try adding information to conversations instead of trying to play stupid games with people?

[WriteDown]

279. Why not answer the question?

Is Obama invading Haiti to protect his Hatian sweatshop operations or is he a hapless stooge who is being played like a violin?

[bitchkitty]

392. Spins like a ballerina, doesn't he? n/t

[bertman]

7. Cause it's closer to Venezuela than Florida is?

[bemildred]

9. There is an election coming up. nt

[DissedByBush]

13. Yep, just yesterday

I was talking about the devaluation of the bolivar and how he's going to need to manufacture a crisis or spring some bogey-man in order to keep his power.

A deployed Marine unit without weapons. Strange thought.

It's not like there are roving armed gangs in Haiti now and the government is completely unable to keep security.

Oh wait, that IS the case!

You can't effectively do disaster relief until the place is secure.

The less security, the less effective the disaster relief.

[bemildred]

18. There is still an election coming up.

The "government" in Haiti has already forbidden various political parties from participating, fixing the deck. So let's see how the election goes, when it goes, if it goes, and then we will talk. I'm not saying there is not a real disaster in Haiti, I'm saying disasters can be really handy to use for political purposes too.

[Pavulon]

19. Yeah. Hugo is a moron and any person who eats that turd sandwich

he dropped is not thinking rationally. Hugo worship is powerful but eventually reality will set in. There is nothing in haiti worth the effort of fixing an election for.

[bemildred]

21. I was just explaining why the US would be happy to occupy Haiti right now.

I do not share your obsession with Hugo Chavez. It's true there was an occupying presence in Haiti already, but with a fake election coming up, there could well be a need to exert firmer control.

[bemildred]

24. Home » Blogs » Americas Who will lead Haiti's security?

There appear to be some rising tensions between countries leading the relief efforts in Haiti. We know the US is sending in upwards of 10,000 troops to the country. But since 2004, Brazil’s military has been the commanding force leading the Haiti UN peacekeeping mission, technically referred to as MINUSTAH. Brazil has about 1,700 soldiers in Haiti and commands about another 5,300 UN forces in Haiti.

Nelson Jobim, Brazil’s defence minister just came back from Haiti and made a point of that saying Brazil would not voluntarily relinquish any of its command duties. Essentially, what he was saying was that Brazil, not the Pentagon, would continue to lead the UN forces.

When pressed, Jobim also admitted that the US military doesn’t take orders from foreign forces.

So who will answer to whom in Haiti?

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/americas/2010/01/16/who-will-lead-haitis-security

If you want to be a hero, you got to have a disaster and some bad guys to fight. Every moviegoer knows this.

[Judi Lynn]

33. It's hard to get these red-faced, bulging eyed bigots hot to attack people publicly

without creating a stupid cover story for it, so they can pretend it has justification.

They can't get up to speed and shriek their ignorant threats like "let's bomb them until they become a sheet of glass," "let God sort them out," and that miracle of stupidity by some country singer concerning kicking someone in the ass without someone deliberately setting out the easily remembered story line for them.

It doesn't have to sound credible, not really. The congenitally slow and beligerant only need the slightest hint of any provocation to go off and bellow for our country to spill someone's blood.

[debunkthelies]

71. Second Your comments, bemildred,

Has everyone on here forgotten the US backed expulsion of their democratically elected President in 2004? :shrug:

[bemildred]

72. Well, I'm all in favor of the relief effort.

I just find the political and journalistic hackery associated with it unseemly. But I'm known to be picky about that sort of thing.

[Pavulon]

86. and the destruction of dresden, tokyo, nagasaki, and parts of occupied france.

what the fuck do those now thriving economies now have to do with a failed jackass in a third world petro state? I forget.

[Wilms]

166. Germany and Japan had declared war on the U.S. VZ hasn't.

You'd be happier on a different board.

:hi:

[Pavulon]

179. No look up Democratic Underground says the banner. not che jesus chavez

underground. I am happy here. hugo is a side show, running a third world government. Not all that relevant.

Will enjoy watching his followers as he continues down the road he is going. It was just a matter of time.

[EFerrari]

36. And Aristide says he's coming home.

The State Department can't legally stop him.

[bemildred]

45. Indeed. nt

[Judi Lynn]

263. They may have to train and outfit the death squads under former Tonton Macoutes leaders to be ready.

It happened already, no doubt they would rush to bring back the same grotesque plan.

I just found something I believe you may find interesting. One of these operatives mentioned in this article is Louis Jodel Chamblain, along with Guy Philippe, whose name you probably remember from the death squads which swept into Haiti from the D.R., after a season of training there. He lived here for quite a while, a trained killer, as a guest of the U.S., reappeared in Haiti, back in the US, back in Haiti, now back in the US again, with thousands of new dead guys as notches on his belt.

Return of the Tonton Macoute
Haiti's dreaded civilian killing machine is back under a new name, terrorizing those who dare dreamViewTrack.June 4, 2006 - 11:15pm — Anthony
The Toronto Star
May 22, 1994
Return of the Tonton Macoute Haiti's dreaded civilian killing machine is back under a new name, terrorizing those who dare dream democracy
by Linda Diebel TORONTO STAR
LEOGANE, Haiti

IT'S PLEASANT HERE on the veranda of the school auditorium which, only a few weeks ago, was confiscated from the poor frightened people of Leogane by the very men who are now enjoying the late afternoon breezes from the sea.
Huge painted signs spoil the building's pristine white with the name of their organization: FRAPH. It rhymes with tap and puns on the French word for "hit."
FRAPH is the Haitian Front for Advancement and Progress and here, in this little seaside town about 75 kilometres (43 miles) from the capital of Port-au-Prince, its members have taken over at gunpoint.

Their leader, the inappropriately named Monsieur Innocent, flips through the pages of a yellow legal pad into which he has copied the names of ordinary citizens and to which, with cold eyes, he has just added the (falsely-given) name of the Haitian driver working for The Star.

After carefully making the notation, Nerva Innocent, FRAPH president for Leogane, begins an interview which quickly turns to tirade. At one point, he hisses: "Madame, I said this interview is not over yet."

He is, he says, waiting for the return of Baby Doc.

That's Jean-Claude Duvalier, the plump and spoiled son of the late dictator Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier. Under Papa Doc, who sat in his bath in his top hat and plotted murder, Haiti ran red with blood. His Tonton Macoute militia controlled the country through terror.

Their very name, Tonton Macoute, became synonymous with savagery. They brought him the heads of his enemies; they stoned people to death; and when his successor, Baby Doc, was finally exiled to France in 1986, they didn't go away; they went underground.

More:
http://auto_sol.tao.ca/node/2125

~~~~~~~~


Haiti Background: Louis Jodel Chamblain
by haiti news
Wednesday Feb 25th, 2004 4:07 PM

Guy Philippe and Louis Jodel Chamblain, both received U.S. help and have been protected by the Dominican Republic's army, despite several requests for their return to face charges in Haiti. The Dominican army receives extensive U.S. assistance, including U.S. advisers near the Haitian border, and a year ago, a shipment of 20,000 M-16 rifles, many of which are believed to be in use in Haiti today. Guy Philippe was a soldier in the Haitian army (FADH) during the brutal 1991-1994 de facto dictatorship. He received specialized U.S. training in Ecuador, and at U.S. insistence was integrated into the top police leadership. He fled in October 2000 after revelations that he was planning a coup with other top police officials. He planned two subsequent coup attempts in 2001. After the second attempt he was arrested, but later released, by Dominican authorities.

Louis Jodel Chamblain was the number two leader of FRAPH, a violent paramilitary organization founded with U.S. encouragement in 1993. The UN, the U.S. State Department and human rights groups attribute hundreds of murders and tens of thousands of other crimes against humanity in 1993 and 1994 to FRAPH. U.S. government sources have confirmed the claims of FRAPH's top leader, Emmanuel Constant, that U.S. intelligence officials encouraged him in his activities, and paid him a monthly salary (see http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/06/grann.htm). Constant has been allowed to live freely in New York, despite a 1995 deportation order and a 2000 murder conviction. The Dominican Republic allowed both Chamblain and Philippe to operate from its territory.

After Aristide was ousted from Haiti during the 1991 coup d'etat a US Defense Intelligence Agency officer, who he named, urged him to set up a front as a balance to the Aristide movement. This led to the creation of FRAPH in August 1993. Chamblain was the second in command of FRAPH. The FRAPH documents contain papers and photos seized by the US military during their intervention in 1994 which led to the restoration of democracy and the return of President Aristide a short time thereafter. FRAPH maintained offices throughout Haiti and they wallpapered their offices with "trophy photos" of their tortured and maimed victims.

Human rights organizations vary in their reporting of the numbers of persons killed during the repression of the coup d'etat with the range being somewhere between 3,000 to 5,000 victims, a large percentage being attributed to the FRAPH paramilitary thugs. Immediately following the US intervention in Haiti in 1994 the US Embassy spokesperson held a press conference in the central park of Port-au-Prince and attempted to introduce the head of FRAPH, "Toto" Constant, to the press as a legitimate leader of a legitimate opposition group.
The staged event was quickly derailed by Haitians who had just been liberated after three years of brutal repression at the hands of Haiti's military and FRAPH. This attempt to portray FRAPH as a legitimate political organization was immediately denounced and rejected by human rights groups around the world, as well as by the press corps who were all too familiar with the mutilated corpses resulting from FRAPH's repressive maneuvers.

A highly publicized victim of FRAPH's handiwork was that of the machete attack against Alerte Belance, who was dragged from her home in the middle of the night because her husband had been an electoral worker in the 1990 elections which brought President Aristide to power on February 7, 1991. Belance was attacked by men who identified themselves as FRAPH and left for dead on the national highway.
After being assisted by a stunned motorist, she underwent surgery to sew her severed face back together, which had been sliced in half, and her arm had to be removed. She miraculously survived and underwent years of physical rehabilitation. Despite requests by the Government of Haiti that Toto Constant be returned to Haiti to face the justice system, he remains at liberty in Queens, New York and was granted a permit to work. The US government allowed Constant to enter the United States in the mid 90s, although he was a known terrorist.

The US ordered his deportation but never moved to deport him and he remains untouched by the Justice Department's human rights violator program, which has been aggressively deporting other such characters. The Government of Haiti formally requested that the US return the FRAPH documents, arguing that they would be critical to the work of Haiti's Truth Commission at the time and in the investigation of criminal acts committed during the coup period. An international mobilization of individuals, human rights organizations and haiti-interest groups, aggressively campaigned as well for the return of the documents, however the US refused to hand over the documents.
In one of President Clinton's last presidential acts, the FRAPH documents were handed over to the Government of Haiti in early 2000, with the condition that their use be limited to legitimate criminal investigations, as opposed to retribution. They have never been used in the investigation and prosecution of crimes to date.


http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2004/02/25/16714431.php

Unbearably ugly.

[defendandprotect]

304. Bless the man .... but I think if he does, he'll probably end up DOA....

Liberals and pogressives are not wanted -- capitalist corporations and their filthy

right wing agents in control --

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

361. Good.

Though I'm not sure it will accomplish anything (or that he accomplished much even while in power).

[Peace Patriot]

75. Because Cuba is only a hundred miles away? Just a thought. nt

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

362. We seem to be doing just fine without having a iron grip on Cuba.

Not sure the Obama Administration is particularly obsessed with it.

[ronnie624]

120. Why did the U.S. want to occupy Haiti in 1915?

Or 1994?

Why has the U.S. been intervening in Haiti for 190 Years?

The answers are but a click away.

[AlphaCentauri]

170. kid born after 1980 don't know their history

and many older people have obsessions with the cold war, it's hard to make them understand whats going on around the world.

[Wilms]

172. I think it's worse.

They sometimes seem reluctant to acknowledge that there could be gaps in the info they have. And they'll fight you based on their limited or even wrong information rather than fact-check the link you offer.

And because they are pro-choice, or somethin', they fancy themselves liberal.

[defendandprotect]

305. Exactly . . . history some here don't want to know or understand . . . !!

"Conspiracy-free America" . . . don'tcha know!!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

364. Which would you like to start with?

In 1915, Wilson invaded to "protect American interests", to ensure some level of stability in the country as well as to prevent an leader hostile to the United States from rising to power and to ensure that repayments of debts owed to U.S. and other banks occured. Not great reasons, in my book, but Haiti was horrifically unstable during that period and Wilson liked expanding American power.

[Wilms]

365. And with the exception of the richest 1% in Haiti, not a single thank you from those ingrates.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

368. Right, because no one likes a foreign power essentially running their country

nor should they. I disagree with the reasons why Wilson decided to invade and also disagree with the reasons why the U.S. maintained a presence and put debt repayment over the needs of the Haitian people, though I also can't ignore the fact that the Haitians were doing an extremely poor job of running their country themselves prior to the U.S. invasion.

[ronnie624]

463. If by "protect American interests",

you mean forcefully opening Haiti to U.S. capital and foreign ownership of land, so Western corporation (U.S.) could profit from cash crops like rubber (playing a major role in the deforestation of Haiti), then I suppose you're right. But I'm not sure, because your message says very little.

My reply to the other poster was semi-sarcasm in response to the implication that the U.S. has no interest in the political and economic exploitation of Haiti. An examination of history, conclusively shows otherwise.

And stability in Haiti, I'm afraid, will never happen through invasion, dominance and exploitation. One can well imagine how the U.S. went about 'protecting its interests' and bringing 'stability' with the deep seated racial prejudices of that time. But one doesn't have to imagine, because it's well documented.

[PacerLJ35]

464. The deforestation of Haiti is primarily from the need of wood and charcoal

Not US imperialism. The people simply needed building supplies and a source of energy. Perhaps the limited crops grown on Haiti contributed some, but not a "major role", as you imply that US activities are the primary reason behind this problem.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ht0064)

http://www.care2.com/causes/environment/blog/earthquake-highlights-haitian-deforestation/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/23/world/main645257.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

466. Who doesn't know what happened BEFORE the charcoal crap, anyway? You've left out the facts.

Exporting Misery to Haiti: How Rice, Pigs, and US Policy Undermined the Haitian Economy
Jan. 18, 2010

è ou malere, tout bagay samble ou, says one of the Creole proverbs that are a staple of Haitian popular culture. When you are poor, everything can be blamed on you. It's a truth we can see played out in the aftermath of the devastating earthquake. While many Americans are reacting to the disaster with genuine compassion and generosity, there's another kind of response afoot as well - one that extends well beyond the sickening remarks made by Pat Robertson or Rush Limbaugh.

Why can't the Haitians ever seem to take care of themselves? ask the denizens of web chat rooms and radio call-in shows. The place was a mess before the earthquake, and nothing we do ever seems to help - so why bother? In more elevated circles, the comments are more subtle: "Development efforts have failed there, decade after decade," noted a piece in Sunday's Washington Post, "leaving Haitians with a dysfunctional government, a high crime rate and incomes averaging a dollar a day." With rescue efforts still underway, it said, "policymakers in Washington and around the world are grappling with how a destitute, corrupt and now devastated country might be transformed into a self-sustaining nation."

You'd never guess, from this discourse, how much US policy has actually undermined Haiti's ability to be a "self-sustaining nation," especially its ability to feed itself. America's history of invasion, occupation, and intervention into Haiti's political and economic life stretches back two centuries, with plenty of help from homegrown Haitian despots. But since the 1980s, in particular, the United States has helped turn a nation of low-tech subsistence farmers into a dumping ground for American agribusiness.

The most glaring example of this trend is rice, which was once a staple crop. Today, little rice is grown in Haiti; instead, the nation is a market for the subsidized rice crop grown in the United States. Human Rights lawyer Bill Quigley, now at the Center for Constitutional Rights, wrote about this trend in the spring of 2008, as food riots shook Haiti and other parts of the developing world:

In 1986, after the expulsion of Haitian dictator Jean Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) loaned Haiti $24.6 million in desperately needed funds (Baby Doc had raided the treasury on the way out). But, in order to get the IMF loan, Haiti was required to reduce tariff protections for their Haitian rice and other agricultural products and some industries to open up the country's markets to competition from outside countries. The US has by far the largest voice in decisions of the IMF. "American rice invaded the country," recalled Charles Suffrard, a leading rice grower in Haiti, in an interview with the Washington Post in 2000. By 1987 and 1988, there was so much rice coming into the country that many stopped working the land.

Quigley interviewed Father Gerard Jean-Juste, a Haitian priest and human rights advocate. "In the 1980s, imported rice poured into Haiti, below the cost of what our farmers could produce it," Fr. Jean-Juste said. "Farmers lost their businesses. People from the countryside started losing their jobs and moving to the cities. After a few years of cheap imported rice, local production went way down." By 2008, Haiti was the world's third largest importer of US rice, receiving some 240,000 tons that year alone.

US rice growers are heavily subsidized by the government. Between 1995-2006 they received $11 billion. The American rice industry is also protected by tariffs - the same sorts of tariffs the IMF demanded Haiti remove. With the average family income standing at about $400 a year, most Haitians couldn't afford to pay international prices for a product they once grew for themselves - so they had to have aid. The US sponsored the aid, but half the money didn't go to buy the food; it went to US farmers, to processors and to shipping companies, because the food had to be transported in US ships. A good part of the so-called handout to Haiti actually went to US agribusiness, which needed markets for its overflowing bins of farm products.

Another infamous "aid" story involves the destruction of native pig farming in Haiti, following an outbreak of swine fever in the late 1970s. As described by Paul Farmer, the physician and anthropologist legendary for his work among Haiti's poor, pigs were once a centerpiece of Haiti's peasant economy, providing a reliable source of income and an insurance policy against hard times. The hardy Haitian creole pigs seemed to be remarkably resistant to swine fever. But American agriculture experts feared that Haiti's pigs could spread the disease to the United States and destroy its massive hog business, and bankrolled a $23 million "extermination and restocking program."

By 1984, all of Haiti's 1.3 million pigs had been killed. USAID and the Organization of American States thereupon announced a plan to replace the Creole pigs with brand new Iowa pigs - provided that the peasants committed to building pigsties to US standards and demonstrate they had enough money to buy feed. Even the peasants who could afford these "free" pigs found that they couldn't flourish under Haitian conditions. The fragile kochon blan ("foreign" or "white" pigs) frequently fell ill and had to go to the vet; they wouldn't eat scraps and required expensive feed; and they had few litters. Soon, the project was abandoned - leaving Iowa hog farmers enriched, and hundreds of thousands of Haitian families without a key means of survival.

These changes in many ways served US economic interests in the Caribbean, which since the 1980s have been oriented towards knitting the area into a common free trade zone, first in the Caribbean Basin Initiative and then under the North American Free Trade Agreement. Forced out of small-scale farming by the elimination of two basic staples, Haitians moved to the cities, where they were available to work in sweatshops producing panties, bras, and dresses for such places as Sears, WalMart, and JC Penney. US aid programs have supported the effort to turn countries such as Haiti into low wage assembly platforms that supply a cheap, easily exploitable workforce for American and international business - and at the same time, relieve pressure on immigration by keeping the desperate Haitians working at home for what is barely a living wage.

After coming to Haiti en masse in the 1980s and 1990s, some of these companies moved on to even cheaper - and more "stable" - countries. Yet recent development initiatives, including the US's HOPE II program to encourage duty-free trade with Haiti, continued to emphasize the low-wage, export-oriented garment industry over sustainable agriculture or other projects that would build Haiti's self-reliance. At the same time, Western companies looked toward the prospect of an expanded tourist industry, owned by foreigners and once again exploiting cheap labor. The purported return of the luxury tourist hotels targeted such places as Jacmel, which now lie in ruins.

More:
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/history/american/news.php?q=1264014431

We are grateful to Downwinder for posting this article for DU'ers earlier.

Just try reading Haiti's history before you start attacking people on this subject. Many of us knew these things long ago, due to personal effort.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

467. Uhm, as I understand it, that almost exclusively occured AFTER much of the deforestation

...which began in earnest in the 1950s.

[Judi Lynn]

471. HLLN on the causes of Haiti deforestation and poverty

MAY 11, 2009 3:15PM
HLLN on the causes of Haiti deforestation and poverty

HLLN on the assertion that Haiti’s Poverty is Directly Linked to Deforestation and Habitat Loss

Ezili Dantò's Note:

Haiti’s poverty is the result of the theft and exploitation of Haiti by the world’s wealthy countries and their corporations. Haiti’s poverty is not, as asserted in Amiel Blajchman's article, directly linked to deforestation. But, if one repeats this assertion long enough, as has been done with Haiti, it becomes sort of a journalistic boilerplate. But that does not mean it's the truth, the whole truth and based on verifiable facts.

Haiti's poverty began with a US/Euro trade embargo after its independence, continued with the Independence Debt to France and ecclesiastical and financial colonialism. Moreover, in more recent times, "the uses of U.S. foreign aid, as administered through USAID in Haiti, basically serves to fuel conflicts and covertly promote U.S. corporate interests to the detriment of democracy and Haitian health, liberty, sovereignty, social justice and political freedoms. USAID projects have been at the frontlines of orchestrating undemocratic behavior, bringing underdevelopment, coup d'etat, impunity of the Haitian Oligarchy, indefinite incarceration of dissenters, and destroying Haiti's food sovereignty essentially promoting famine. Recall, for instance, USAID project such as the slaughter of the Kreyòl pigs that greatly impoverished the peasants, the Peligre dam that made landless peasants, the Miami rice that destroyed Haiti's domestic rice, the trade laws that brought sweatshops enticing rural Haitians to the capital and created the slum of Site Soley when the US companies closed shop and went elsewhere." (See, HLLN on oversight needed on USAID).

Throught its "democracy enhancement program," USAID financed the projects of subversion, infiltration, military deception and psychological operations that the International Republican Institute (IRI) and the International Foundation for Election Systems ("IFES") carried out in Haiti t0 destabalized the Constitutionally elected Aristide/Preval government and ouster it in 2004 bringing the UN proxy occupation for the U.S." (See, Matters to be investigated.)

But, if we stick only to deforestation here, Haiti’s deforestation is due as much to the use of wood for charcoal as the soil erosion occurring right now in Haiti (because of the current destruction of Haiti's mountains) is due to digging up for cement, marble, granite, aggregate, gold and copper by the Haitians peasant for constructing their houses! Haiti's peasants could be using charcoal and raw mountain materials for construction to meet their sustainable daily needs for centuries and would not have denuded the mountains or dug them up to the extent visible today, leaving Haiti with the soil erosion it is currently experiencing and the craters that will be left when Haiti’s remaining mountain ranges and natural protection have been more thoroughly exploited and mined by the transnational corporations now in Haiti. Mining Haiti's mountains for extraction of raw materials for the foreign construction industry has been steadily going on for decades in Haiti and since before the 1980s. The digging up of Haiti, for the construction industry and, to a smaller scale at present, for its mineral wealth (gold, copper...), post-Bush Regime Change/2004 coup d'etat, has intensified.

The Euro/US companies carting off Haiti's natural resources, by digging its mountains right now, and before that, by razing whole Haitian forests to the ground for lumber to meet Western profit needs, along with the destruction of Haiti's peasant economy (elimination of Haiti’s indigenous black pigs and dumping of US rice that destroyed domestic agriculture) so that the peasant could not afford other fuel, are the primary reasons for the environmental degradation in Haiti.

More:
http://open.salon.com/blog/ezili_danto/2009/05/11/hlln_on_the_causes_of_haiti_deforestation_and_poverty

~~~~~~~~
seemslikeadream (1000+ posts) Mon Apr-21-08 11:29 PM
Original message
The U.S. Role in Haiti's Food Riots
Edited on Mon Apr-21-08 11:36 PM by seemslikeadream
http://www.counterpunch.org/quigley04212008.html

30 Years Ago Haiti Grew All the Rice It Needed. What Happened?
The U.S. Role in Haiti's Food Riots
By BILL QUIGLEY

Riots in Haiti over explosive rises in food costs have claimed the lives of six people. There have also been food riots world-wide in Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Cote d’Ivorie, Egypt, Guinea, Mauritania, Mexico, Morocco, Senegal, Uzbekistan and Yemen.

The Economist, which calls the current crisis the silent tsunami, reports that last year wheat prices rose 77% and rice 16%, but since January rice prices have risen 141%. The reasons include rising fuel costs, weather problems, increased demand in China and India, as well as the push to create biofuels from cereal crops.

Hermite Joseph, a mother working in the markets of Port au Prince, told journalist Nick Whalen that her two kids are “like toothpicks” they’ re not getting enough nourishment. Before, if you had a dollar twenty-five cents, you could buy vegetables, some rice, 10 cents of charcoal and a little cooking oil. Right now, a little can of rice alone costs 65 cents, and is not good rice at all. Oil is 25 cents. Charcoal is 25 cents. With a dollar twenty-five, you can’t even make a plate of rice for one child.”

The St. Claire’s Church Food program, in the Tiplas Kazo neighborhood of Port au Prince, serves 1000 free meals a day, almost all to hungry children -- five times a week in partnership with the What If Foundation. Children from Cite Soleil have been known to walk the five miles to the church for a meal. The cost of rice, beans, vegetables, a little meat, spices, cooking oil, propane for the stoves, have gone up dramatically. Because of the rise in the cost of food, the portions are now smaller. But hunger is on the rise and more and more children come for the free meal. Hungry adults used to be allowed to eat the leftovers once all the children were fed, but now there are few leftovers.

The New York Times lectured Haiti on April 18 that “Haiti, its agriculture industry in shambles, needs to better feed itself.” Unfortunately, the article did not talk at all about one of the main causes of the shortages -- the fact that the U.S. and other international financial bodies destroyed Haitian rice farmers to create a major market for the heavily subsidized rice from U.S. farmers. This is not the only cause of hunger in Haiti and other poor countries, but it is a major force.

More:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3190463

ETC.

[ProudDad]

217. As usual to make damn sure the People of Haiti don't

fuck up a USAmerican source of cheap labor...

Just the same as bush I and bush II

http://www.batayouvriye.org/English/Positions1/cheaplabor.html
http://www.globalissues.org/article/141/haiti-and-human-rights
http://socialistworker.org/2010/01/14/catastrophe-haiti

"To understand these facts, we have to look at a second fault line--U.S. imperial policy toward Haiti. The U.S. government, the UN, and other powers have aided the Haitian elite in subjecting the country to neoliberal economic plans that have impoverished the masses, deforested the land, wrecked the infrastructure and incapacitated the government.

The fault line of U.S. imperialism interacted with the geological one to turn the natural disaster into a social catastrophe.

During the Cold War, the U.S. supported the dictatorships of Papa Doc Duvalier and then Baby Doc Duvalier--which ruled the country from 1957 to 1986--as an anti-communist counterweight to Castro's Cuba nearby.

Under guidance from Washington, Baby Doc Duvalier opened the Haitian economy up to U.S. capital in the 1970s and 1980s. Floods of U.S. agricultural imports destroyed peasant agriculture. As a result, hundred of thousands of people flocked to the teeming slums of Port-au-Prince to labor for pitifully low wages in sweatshops located in U.S. export processing zones.

In the 1980s, masses of Haitians rose up to drive the Duvaliers from power--later, they elected reformer Jean-Bertrand Aristide to be president on a platform of land reform, aid to peasants, reforestation, investment in infrastructure for the people, and increased wages and union rights for sweatshop workers.

The U.S. in turn backed a coup that drove Aristide from power in 1991. Eventually, the elected president was restored to power in 1994 when Bill Clinton sent U.S. troops to the island--but on the condition that he implement the U.S. neoliberal plan--which Haitians called the "plan of death."

[Judi Lynn]

264. Thanks for the links, great post. n/t

[defendandprotect]

306. Undeniable truth . . . shame on America!!

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. I'm sure that this is just a mistranslation

;)

[sabrina 1]

475. No, at least I hope not, as it is the truth ~ n/t

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

485. Nonsense.

[Blue State Bandit]

12. Here's a good reason for troops...

Haiti earthquake: criminal gangs return to rule slums after escaping from prison

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7010543/Haiti-earthquake-criminal-gangs-return-to-rule-slums-after-escaping-from-prison.html">Telegraph UK

More than 3,000 inmates broke free from the prison after the earthquake hit last Tuesday, brandishing assault rifles and mounted on motorcycles, before returning to the Cite Soleil shanty town.

It is understood that the criminals, including a hardened killer known only by the street name "Blade", descended on the rubble of Haiti's collapsed Justice Ministry and set it on fire to destroy any records of their incarceration or criminal history.

WTF?

And by the way, the US Military in country are under the command of USAID (State, not Defense).

[ronnie624]

125. Criminal gangs!?

Of scary black men named Blade!?

Stop it, you're frightening me!

:sarcasm:

[Judi Lynn]

171. It's only a matter of time before they're throwing babies out of their incubators.

We should send in Xe, and they won't have to be bound by tedious laws, and human dignity, and can lay waste to everything left standing.

Isn't it peculiar there are people running loose right here who imagine "we" are entitled to send military people to control every one in the world?

[ronnie624]

249. Propaganda for perception molding, pure and simple,

utilizing innate, subconscious racial prejudice and fear to manufacture consent. I despair that others can't recognize it when they see it.

Lots of 'scary' pictures accompany the article.

[Judi Lynn]

250. I'm still shaking. Young Haitians who take discarded carboard boxes are terrifying!

Gansters! Mass murderers! Banksters! Politicians! What God hath wrought!

That was one courageous news photographer who dared to stand there and snap that photo. God bless him real good.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

373. It's interesting that mock the suffering of these people

It's pretty apparent from the reports coming in that armed gangs are an issue in the country right now.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

372. Let me make sure I understand your position

In your mind, thousands of inmates didn't escape and there aren't armed gangs in Haiti?

[ronnie624]

465. In my mind,

whether it's true or not (and there is probably some truth to the report), the event is no doubt being used by the State Department to manufacture consent. In democracy, theoretically, the consent of the people is always necessary for the deployment of the military.

State propaganda doesn't have to be false, just useful and persuasive.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

468. To manufacture consent towards what end?

And for what purpose?

[ronnie624]

473. To "provide security" and to "help" Haiti by bringing "stability". What else?

Silly.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

371. In other words

you sincerely believe the armed gangs are a myth?

[WriteDown]

200. When are you heading to Haiti to help?

There is obviously no danger.

[ProudDad]

218. Yours was a downright stupid writedown post... (n/t)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

374. Yeah, everyone knows "when are YOU going?" posts are only acceptable

when discussing wars, right?

[ronnie624]

248. How I wish.

I'll just have to donate as much money as I possibly can, instead.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

370. Agreed.

[Maestro]

15. Chavez is really becoming a joke!

He had some promise in the beginning but this is really getting pathetic. To blast the US in this time of tragedy is ridiculous even though our actions in the past in the Latin America and South America have been disastrous to say the least.

[EFerrari]

39. Or as usual,he is voicing an inconvenient truth

amplified in the Reuters headline.

This isn't a joke. The US wants to remain in charge of Haiti, Aristide wants to come home and the Pentagon is in a wrestling match with Brazil for command and control.

So you see, it just looks like a joke out of context, Maestro. It's very serious and Chavez is just always the guy in the room that says things first.

[cali]

78. he's grandstanding.

The U.S. is not in control of Haiti. I doubt very much that Obama wants to be in control of Haiti. The Pentagon is not wrestling with Brazil for command and control. Your utter blind devotion to Hugo's sweet but really a bit much.

[SandWalker1984]

97. You obviously haven't studied the history of the US & Haiti, have you?

Otherwise you'd know just how down and dirty our government has been with the people of Haiti.

[Pavulon]

98. That why we are invading, so we can provide aid..and then kill them for soylent green..

the us killed about a half million people in tokyo when we firebombed it. Guess that means if we send aid to japan during a quake we are starting ww2 again? Shit I am confused? WHat is your point?

[ronnie624]

127. Sarcasm will not erase a long history of interventionism for profit in Haiti and Venezuela.

No country in Latin America or the Caribbean has any incentive to trust the United States. Chavez is giving voice to the thoughts of hundreds of millions.

[Pavulon]

133. And that voice is stupidity. "invasion" is

not only incorrect but dangerous. God forbid any person actually believes him there. Does he want an insurgency? Do you support a violent action by the Haitians to expel their new american overlords?

Trying to save millions and a fat asshole in a red shirt cant miss an opportunity to shut the fuck up and fix his own economy.

[ronnie624]

159. Pavulon, you do not deal with issues, facts and logic,

You scream non sequiturs and ad hominem attacks over and over, in an attempt, through repetition, to create a negative impression in the minds of the gullible. Your modus operandi is the employment of tactics over information and substance. Thus is your agenda identified as that which every progressive should recognize.

Fortunately, DU is the sort of web site that attracts mostly people who have a genuine interest in current events. They are, for the most part, curious and open minded enough to seek out background information that places those events in their proper historical context.

[Pavulon]

180. So did we invade haiti last week or not. yes or no?

I am quite simple to understand. What is your position?

[defendandprotect]

307. Did we "invade" Hawaii long ago . . . yes or no?

There are many ways to undermine and take over a nation ---

and we've been working on Haiti for 200 years!!!

It is quite simple to understand -- all you need is history.



PS: And capitalism which works to move the wealth of nations and their resources

from the many to the few is one major way -- always successful.

Organized patriarchal religion another standby --

[PacerLJ35]

311. OK, fine, bring everyone home...let the other nations figure it out.

I'm sure Hugo's handful of C-130s will more than make up for the loss of the USAF's Air Mobility Command.

[defendandprotect]

318. Remember . . . Katrina . . . we don't quite have the record we used to . . .

We are no longer America -- we're "America" ---

used to be --

Let's stop being the big cheese and make room for others --

[PacerLJ35]

321. Katrina...a FEMA-botched operation but the military still arrived ASAP

FEMA ran the civil side of that operation...ie, coordinating the IRC and other NGOs, along with civil SAR teams, etc. The military ran its own show and airplanes, helicopters and other units arrived the day the weather cleared out.

[defendandprotect]

326. You can defend Katrina as a success if you wish . . .

The National Guard were kept from going in to rescue ....

The whole thing was faked -- from A to Z --

Again -- we are on this planet with many other nations/peoples -- let's act like it!

We are not quite the "chocolate-giving" military of old -- we are Blackwater, we are

TORTURERS, we are Mai Lai -- we are Vietnam and Operation Phoenix --

AND . . .

We are also the nation with the largest military budget in the world which allegedly

couldn't protect ourselves from 4 simultaneous hijackings of commercial airliners --

with NORAD being AWOL -- !!???


Unfortunately, this isn't "conspiracy-free America" as much as many would like to believe it.

[PacerLJ35]

327. Whatever...

I was assigned to a C-130 squadron out of Texas during Katrina. We put our crews in crew rest the night before landfall. They were launched the next day. Say what you want, but it wasn't "faked". I did clarify that certain aspects of the response was botched, particularly from FEMA and the WH.

[defendandprotect]

332. "Botched" doesn't cover the obvious racism of Katrina . . .

and so many of the other almost purposeful damage to the people of the area --

still ongoing now!

[PacerLJ35]

399. You're shifting your point..

First we were discussing the response of the military regarding Katrina, which I rebutted by stating our unit (and many others) became immediately involved ASAP, in contrast to your assertion that the military didn't arrive for days. Then you start in about racism and policy towards NOLA, which has little or nothing to do with the military disaster response time. You're simply trying to sow the seeds of discontent, aren't you.

[defendandprotect]

421. Obviously, you're incapable of looking at any situation other than

from your personal view --

Try a higher perspective --

[PacerLJ35]

453. This isn't about my "view"

You said the military didn't show up during Katrina for days.

I said the military was there from the very beginning, as evidenced by my unit and many others being there.

Then you said the Katrina response (and the attention paid to NOLA) was borne out of racism. That may or may not be the case...but it's irrelevant to the original debate. Bush could have put on his finest SS regalia and stated he hated minorities...but that doesn't change the FACT that many military units, including my old unit (39th Airlift Squadron) arrived in numbers the day the hurricane moved on.

Essentially I provided an inconvenient fact that you couldn't really counter, so you had to shift to something else in your effort to disparage the hard work many people in the US military put forth in August and September of 2005.

[defendandprotect]

482. No . . . what I said was that the National Guard was kept there . . .

and NOT permitted to actively respond.

Everything that happens is connected one way or another -- and certainly the racism of the

W administration and GOP in general is relevant to ALL that has happened in NO and in Haiti!!

Imperialism -- relevant!

Conversations evolve -- get used to it --

Bye --

[PacerLJ35]

486. The Guard was there

I used to fly for the LAARNG out of Lakefront airport in New Orleans, and I still have a significant number of contacts down there. They were already pre-positioned in Baton Rouge the day prior to landfall, along with Guard engineer units. They responded immediately, and more from other states were called up once it was determined the levees broke and the city flooded.

This isn't about evolving conversations...if that's your escape from making sense, I'm not biting. This sub-thread was about the response time of the military, which you stated took days for them to appear in NOLA. Only after I started discussing my own experiences that countered your logic did you start in on the racism angle about government policy, which still does not change the fact that the military (yes, the Guard too) responded pretty much immediately in NOLA and elsewhere.

[defendandprotect]

491. Guard was there -- they were PREVENTED from responding . . .

You'll find that info as well in one of the documentaries on NO --

[PacerLJ35]

493. The guys I used to fly with weren't prevented from flying

They did the very next day...I remember even seeing video of helicopters I used to fly rescuing people. Aside from the Guard, there was a huge response by the active duty military as well.

[defendandprotect]

498. Agan... the GUARD were kept inactive for two or more days . . .

you'll find that in one of the documentaries on NO --

[PacerLJ35]

499. I don't need "documentaries"...my own fellow Guardsmen were there

They weren't kept "inactive". They flew missions immediately. They rescued a lot of people the very day the weather improved to allow flight operations.

A snip from an article:

"Other documents from Louisiana’s state and emergency preparedness command detail how emergency workers struggled to cope with encroaching floodwaters and the rising human toll over ensuing days. The reports paint a scene of growing chaos, beginning at dawn Aug. 29, with flood-control pumping stations failing, “extensive flooding in eastern New Orleans,” fires and building collapses.

That day National Guard helicopters rescued 2,296 people from rooftops and 'newly created islands,' according a Louisiana National Guard report. Blackhawks designed to carry 11 passengers ignored standard operating procedures; one crew loaded 31 evacuees into one of the helicopters."

http://dailyuw.com/2005/12/5/seeking-to-set-the-record-straight-la-governor/

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

424. You hit the nail on the head, my friend.

[Pavulon]

315. No answer there, yes no you call makes

10,000 people die. Make a call. A stroke of a pen and you can stop and stand down or continue to help mitigate a disaster.

Please stop bullshitting and answer that question .

[defendandprotect]

319. Hawaii was taken without a shot being fired . . .

That's an answer to the question, unless you still don't get it -- ????

As for the attitude problem you have --- remind me to put you on "ignore."

[PacerLJ35]

322. Hawaii also wasn't taken over during a natural disaster response either

[defendandprotect]

325. I'm sure the Queen considered US takeover quite an "unnatural" disaster ....

[PacerLJ35]

328. You are dancing around the original topic...

Hawaii happened a very, very long time ago and is an entirely different topic with very different circumstances.

[defendandprotect]

333. "Time machine" again... Hawaii is simply another part of "America's" criminal history-!!

[Pavulon]

343. SO we stand down and leave now or not? your call, make it. yes no?(nt)

[Wilms]

347. False choice. Freeper tactic. Plus your on record having financial interests in VZ.

"Bad for me because companies that do business there now have to pay more for our goods." - Pavulon Jan-17-10

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4229316&mesg_id=4229651


Got bias?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

378. When in doubt yell "Freeper" and hope it distracts people from your lack of an argument.

[Wilms]

387. Pardon? Try clicking that link and addressing the snip I offered.

Let him go carry water elsewhere.

[bitchkitty]

391. But what if it's not a tactic, but just stating the obvious? n/t

[Pavulon]

393. Yeah, that would be a state owned company and a auto manufacturer

I work for a company that does business all over the world. Are you actually an adult? Selling machine tools does not make my point less valid. I do business in china, so are you actually saying I cant comment on any topic happening in a country I have sold a PLC unit in?

Simple choice, if you think we invaded would you as potus stand down military operations. Got the balls to answer?

[Wilms]

394. You can comment all you want.

You can continue to post false choices.

Your bias is now a matter of record.

The fact that your financial interests in VZ is inconvenienced by the needs of the VZ peeps is your problem.

[Pavulon]

396. So send the NKVD to deal with me

my interest is driven by a state owned company. Sorry you dont like having your little parade pissed on. Funny how when you make people actually account for their words in scenarios with consequences they actually think some. Well the ones who have a working heart.

[Wilms]

398. The people of VZ have rained on your parade, it seems.

Nothing personal mind you. They're just moving to a new way of business that's a bit more equitable.

You'll adjust.

[Pavulon]

406. Yeah. I will starve considering

I turn down work to maintain my marriage. Either way they will continue to purchase what we sell. Until some company in china figures out how to put us out of business. I like LA customers because the flights are better than BFE asia pac. Ever flown to china?

Again my income is not tied to sales but to doing actual real work, a rare thing in the "service" economy.

[Wilms]

408. Your record has already spoken.

The VZ people, too, have spoken. And they didn't chose you.

[Pavulon]

411. Ja, mein rekord

ist gegründet. The people dont sign checks.

[PacerLJ35]

413. I knew you were a Nazi!

Your German-ish words reveal your true character (I'm being sarcastic!)

[Pavulon]

414. Spent some time with our german friends

and learned the language to an extent from boredom. Lots of my co workers are in our german offices. That poster is hopeless.

[PacerLJ35]

416. Did you realize the Luftwaffe

has a squadron based in New Mexico? So everytime I hear people whine about the US using foreign bases, it makes me think about them. I guess the Germans have some kind of ulterior motive...eh?

[Pavulon]

418. East german Migs were brought over.

after the wall fell. Not sure if they still fly them but they were here. I was impressed by the g36 rifle we tried out in Yugoslavia. Best battle rifle I ever fired.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

377. You've failed to demonstrate how the two situations are comparable.

[defendandprotect]

420. And you've failed to consider the tactic of taking a country without force . . .

which is what we've been doing in Haiti for 200 years . . .

we may be close to the last round of play --

Our imperialistic government hasn't changed it stripes -- whether you're

talking about this continent, Native American/genocide, enslaving Africans here --

or any of the other long, long list of aggressive actions/wars - false flag schemes --

which occur regularly.

Still the same gene pool -- still the same agenda.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

425. You may want to bone up on that history, my friend.

It's hardly been "without force", under those est. 2,000 Haitians simply offed themselves in 1918?

Secondly, imperialism is motivated by green, so tell me, what exactly do you believe the U.S. desires from Haiti? It doesn't even have trees, for Christ's sake.

[Pavulon]

323. Chickenshit answer, do we pull troops or not. I asked first.

should the POTUS stand down the effort, would you? Your answer basically separates into a category of sane person or a person who would support mass murder like heydrich. I dont have an ignore list but could make exception for true filth.

He never pulled the trigger, just gave orders. Life or death, you call, how do you play it?

Answer?

[ChangoLoa]

150. Long story of interventionism for profit in Venezuela?

Are you talking of something else than the 2002 coup or trying to guess about venezuelan history from other latin-american examples?

[ronnie624]

154. Darn it, you caught me.

No, wait! I have an escape route! What I really said was, "interventionism for profit in Haiti and Venezuela".

Whew! That was close!

[ChangoLoa]

158. Yes

It sounded like a long history of snowfalls in Montreal and Miami.

[ronnie624]

160. If I say the U.S. has a long history of interventionism in Latin America and the Caribbean,

am I saying the U.S. has instigated proxy war, organized coup d'etat or invaded every country in the region?

Good day to you, ChangoLoa.

[ChangoLoa]

162. Not if you say that... but you didn't.

You said "Venezuela". I'm pointing out that in Latin-America, we're individual countries, each with its own history, even if we share a common culture. If you say "ah, Venezuela, a south american soccer country", I think "wow, typical american, "1st world" induced superficiality". This was similar.

Good day to you too, ronnie.

[cali]

123. oh, but I'm

quite aware of the history. you obviously aren't aware of the current dynamic

[diamidue]

169. Of course the US wants Haiti. You are right. n/t

[Turbineguy]

16. Li'l Hugo

has been on the phone with Li'l Kim again.

[Regret My New Name]

17. *facepalm*

[Andronex]

20. Priority is being given to the US military buildup...

Priority is being given to the US military buildup at the airport, and planes of humanitarian aid are being stopped, eventually there will be 10,000 US military personnel in place.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x424232>

[OregonBlue]

87. That is all speculation. U.S. troops are needed to man the ports and clear bodies and roads.

This is a huge disaster. Someone is going to have to exert control and the Haitian government is not capable of doing it not to mention that they are too corrupt to be in charge of relief supplies. There are gonna be some ugly incidents down there and they are going to need security. Why so quick to believe every negative article you read?

[Andronex]

115. "Why so quick to believe every negative article you read?"

Maybe it's the 700 foreign US military bases or Haitian history including 20 years of US occupation and support for corrupt RW dictatorships in Haiti and throughout the world, but I forgot all that changed when Obama was elected, the president who cannot even stand up to a buffoon like Lieberman. It's odd that countries like Cuba or Israel have the capacity to work under these circumstances without fear but the US needs 10,000 troops to give assistance to dying people. Why are you being so naive ?

[ProudDad]

219. "U.S. troops are needed to man the ports and clear bodies and roads"

WTF???

God, I'm getting sick and tired of USAmerikan Imperialist militaristic BULLSHIT!!!

Why don't you bloodthirsty war mongers fucking die off????

Hey, DIMWIT! The Haitian people are more than capable of manning their own port and clearing their own bodies and roads. They don't need any fucking condescending, war mongering fuckheads who CAN'T EVEN PROVIDE HEALTH CARE FOR THEIR OWN PEOPLE telling them what to do and how to do it...

They COULD use a little help, some water and food, some equipment and fuel so they can do the job themselves!

Jesus, fucking condescending USAmerikan assholes!!!

[PacerLJ35]

229. Nice job, you just contradicted yourself...

In one sentence you said the Haitian people don't need help, they are capable of doing it themselves. Then you said they just need a little help, supplies, water and food. WTF? That's what our airplanes and helicopters are FULL of...they did a C-17 drop today (after much planning) that dropped several thousand meals and water bottles.

[ProudDad]

235. Just like after the Hurricane

4 days late and way too little...

Typical USAmerikan Imperial Legions' activity...

I said they needed supplies -- they sure don't need a snot-load of US-fascist troops...

[PacerLJ35]

237. Again, you're just full of inaccuracies

The US military arrived in NOLA and the surrounding communities the day the weather cleared. My squadron had crews in bravo alert a day prior to the landfall. We were ready to head down. FEMA botched their side of the operation. The US military was there ASAP flying SAR missions, evacuating the sick and wounded, and flying in food, water and medical supplies.

[Judi Lynn]

265. Why don't you take the time to grasp what you're "reading"?

Here's what Proud Dad said:

~snip~
"The Haitian people are more than capable of manning their own port and clearing their own bodies and roads. They don't need any fucking condescending, war mongering fuckheads who CAN'T EVEN PROVIDE HEALTH CARE FOR THEIR OWN PEOPLE telling them what to do and how to do it...

They COULD use a little help, some water and food, some equipment and fuel so they can do the job themselves!"

If you misunderstood it, you void your own post by arguing about something he did NOT say.

[PacerLJ35]

296. Uh...so what's unclear about that?

In the first few lines, he said:

"The Haitian people are more than capable of manning their own port and clearing their own bodies and roads"

Then he said:

"They COULD use a little help, some water and food, some equipment and fuel so they can do the job themselves!"

Last I checked, helping isn't the same as letting them do it on their own. FYI, we are, in fact, providing them with help, food, water, equipment and medical supplies.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

379. Uh...what's "bloodthirsty" about wanting security established ASAP?

With that said, considering how the port was heavily damanged in the quake, no the Haitians are not capable of getting things up and running as quickly as the U.S. military.

[Quixote1818]

22. What would we want with Haiti? No Oil, no gold, nothing but poverty.

We are clearly there for all the right reasons.

on edit, I guess there is some gold but probably not enough to pay for an occupation.

[Andronex]

25. "We are clearly there for all the right reasons."

Yeah, like the time before when we occupied it for 20 years...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

380. You're referring to the invasion of 1915? Do tell, how are they comparable?

Be specific.

[PacerLJ35]

400. While we're at it, let's pile on about how the Spanish cleaned the island of its native inhabitants

And use that further fuel the fire that there's some hidden imperialism behind the military distributing aid in Haiti...

[Judi Lynn]

26. You're unaware of the US-owned sweatshops there for their near-slave wages?

Spend some time reading, researching, thinking.

Not everything can be delivered by short tv news stories.

[WriteDown]

30. And Obama is obviously in league with the wealthy sweatshop owners!

It's all falling into place now!

[Judi Lynn]

35. US policy was set in place before President Obama was elected.

It could only benefit you if you spent some time informing yourself on Haiti's history with the U.S.

[WriteDown]

37. And Obama is just a stooge following the ancient plan!

Got it.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

173. Great resource, too bad the ones who need the information refuse to read it,

because without a doubt they know if they read any part of the truth, it will flatten them. They stay proudly, loudly ignorant for self-defense!

[Wilms]

174. Funny, I just addressed that in a post upthread.

And that's just talking about the ignorant ones.

Others, I suspect, know better but have financial interests at odds with Democratic values. So they call themselves, New Democrats, realist, moderates, etc. Republican-Lite/DLCers is more accurate.

[WriteDown]

199. I thought it was 2010?

The latest article here is 2003. So is Obama part of the secret plan or is he just a stooge that really is in over his head?

[Wilms]

202. Stay ignorant.

:hi:

[WriteDown]

204. Provide current information or answer the questions.

:eyes:

[Wilms]

206. I'm not here to debate a sycophant PR puppet.

There's more than ample info and history underscoring the expressed concerns.

Spin it and sophomorize all you want.

[WriteDown]

207. Gotta love diversion. Thanks!

[Wilms]

209. And I'm sure you are generally recognized for that.

In fact, I think poster like you underscore the nature and severity of the problem.

Others truly believe in the DLC.

[WriteDown]

210. I'll give you one last shot...

Is Obama controlled by his evil Haitian sweatshop masters and has known the plan all along or is he a hapless fool who is in over his head?

[Name removed]

283. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bacchus39]

40. Obama is setting Haiti policy right now

I do not recall Obama swearing to uphold the US Haiti sweat shop policy when he took office. Is there a copy of this document available for review? Is Obama as president able to make his own policy or does the US Haiti sweat shop policy supercede his constitutional powers?

[Judi Lynn]

266. The US gov't has been in league with them and their lobbyists for ages.

It would be so much wiser to take time to learn about the subject first before tackling attacks on posters.

It appears President Obama's not prepared to make any drastic change in US foreign policy, at least not yet.

[Bacchus39]

31. so the huge relief effort and funds is to maintain sweat shops??

the expenditure of the US in direct funding not to mention troops and relief workers kind of wipes out the "benefit" of sweat shops wouldn't you think?

follow your own advice, especially the "thinking" part.

[Wilms]

122. Disgusting. Freeper perfect logic.

:puke:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

382. You're dancing around the issue

Clearly the amount of money we're spending on this far outweighs any benefit we might receive from some sweatshops.

[Wilms]

388. Who's "we"?

Talk about dancing around. Like there's no business interest there, before or now. :eyes:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

390. Do tell, what business interest do we have there that

brings in more of a profit than the +100 million we're spending on aid.

[Wilms]

395. Like the business interests, and not the taxpayers, are gonna get the bill.

:rofl:

Cut the BS.

[PacerLJ35]

401. Why would businesses pay for government-sponsored aid?

FYI, while many large businesses certainly receive tax advantages, most businesses still pay large amount of taxes. Before I went in the military I did some of the accounting for a small company I worked for...they paid obscene taxes for just about everything.

[Wilms]

405. That corps make $ from gov't contracts should not have to be explained to anyone posting here.

What is the gap?

As for your "they paid obscene taxes" comment, it's totally off topic but share a few links about what corps REALLY pay.

After a cigar, of course.

[PacerLJ35]

409. Oh, I forgot...

The military CONTRACTS out the following:

Military airlift
Military sealift
EMRAT airdrops

I get where you are attempting to go with this...that corporations make money off of making the airplanes, ships, EMRAT packages, water bottles and medical supplies. But shit, do you really think they should have to give all their money back once we use the stuff? What's the point of even having corporations if they have to make stuff for free? Have you even seen how much it costs to develop a new airplane or ship design?

I honestly don't know what you want corporations to do...just produce all this stuff for free? You sound like my ex wife...she thinks I can just shit money, much like you think corporations can just produce it from thin air. I'm quite aware of cases of gouging on behalf of corporations selling stuff to the government, but honestly, that's partly the government's fault too...they only have a legion of contracting specialists that should be able to spot the $1000 toilet seats, etc. But for every dishonest corporation there are many that are honestly trying to sell a good product for a decent profit.

I can't remember details (it was around 15 years ago), but I remember the tax bills I had to write out on behalf of my bosses and I remember thinking "wow, I THOUGHT I wanted to go into business for myself, but screw that". It was outrageous.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

426. I'm asking you, flat out, what the U.S. supposedly wants from Haiti so badly

that it's willing to spend $100,000,000+ to attain.

And you're dancing around the question.

[Wilms]

443. The "U.S." doesn't want it. The business interests do. And they lobby.

And they'll get the US to do lots of things so that they can make money from the US or others.

It happens all the time. Laws, regulations, forign policy, etc.

It's not like that's not half the French gripe. They want pie too.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

446. And what exactly do the business interests want again? Gold? Iron ore? Timber?

No wait, just cheap labor - as if there isn't already an abundance of that around the globe.

[Wilms]

454. I figured I'd be at a different board to read such a thing.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

456. Perhaps instead of expressing your disappointment you should try refuting my argument.

[Wilms]

460. Nah. It's documented well enough. See ya.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

462. Than it ought to be awfully easy for you to cite.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

381. Let me get this straight, we're sending thousands of troops and millions of dollars in humanitarian.

aid...simply to prop up a few sweatshops? That's an extremely far fetched theory.

[EFerrari]

63. Getting relief to Haitians is one reason. Retaining control of Haiti

during this chaos is also a reason. They co-exist.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

383. Retaining control? How so?

I wouldn't mind seeing your evidence.

[SandWalker1984]

100. Drugs. Haiti is a pass thru for drugs.

Of course, the CIA has NOTHING to do with drug running, right?

[Pavulon]

101. So is I95, your point?

we are invading for drugs? We are trying to repair our coke operation? Speaking of drugs..

[SOS]

142. Billions in cocaine go through Haiti

Colombia>Haiti>USA

There are plenty of people in the US who want that route well protected.

[Pavulon]

181. So we are invading mexico too.

man you guys are really confusing me with all this? Did we cause this earthquake too?

[Wilms]

190. More insults. n/t

[Pavulon]

191. Did we invade or not? Do you support what chavez said?(nt)

[Wilms]

198. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4229316&mesg_id=4230788

[ProudDad]

220. C-H-E-A-P L-A-B-O-R...

and to keep that Socialist Aristide out...

Can't have any successful Socialist governments so close to the USAmerikan Empire...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

384. That's the same Aristide that we invaded to place back into power in '94, you realize.

[onehandle]

23. Looney attention whore. nt

[Duende azul]

106. Chavez didn't need a photo op in Haiti. Hillary did.

[sylvi]

27. What an insufferable ass

Doesn't he have a convenience store that needs nationalizing, or something?

[justinaforjustice]

51. Chavez's Popularity in Ve is 10 points higher than Obama in U.S.

Those in the U.S. get their information about Chavez from our huge media conglomerates who are terrified of socialism and will do and say anything to ridicule socialist leaders. They never publish stories about all the positive things that are taking place here in Venezuela. They don't want Americans to know about them -- so they won't demand the same.

As a three year resident of Venezuela, I have observed the wonderful social programs that the Chavez government has implemented: free medical care, free education to the university level, free educational programs to combat illiteracy, real democracy at the community level, subsidized foodstuffs, even free and subsidized housing -- the list is long.

The United States desperately needs similar programs, but as long as capitalism rules, we won't have them. In his eleven years in office, Chavez has dramatically cut the poverty and illiteracy rates here. Unemployment is 6.6%. The true unemployment rate in the U.S. is closer to 16%, rather than the 10% the labor department publishes. (They simply don't count those who are unemployed after their unemployment insurance runs out.) In cities like Detroit, the true figure is closer to 30 or 40%.

Chavez's Venezuela is certainly not perfect, neither is Chavez, but they are trying to create a society in which human beings, not profits, take priority. What are U.S. priorities: trillions to the big investment firms, a trillion to invade and occupy Iraq, billions to maintain over a thousand foreign U.S. military bases. Where is the help for those losing their homes and their jobs in the U.S.? Where is the cheap government-supplied foodstuffs and heating oil. This year, Venezuela's Citgo is once again supplying cheap oil to poor communities in the U.S. Our capitalist controlled oil companies just keep raising their prices and their profits while poor folks freeze.

[Peace Patriot]

79. Thank you, Justinaforjustice! You are so right. I just finished reading two lengthy reports

on the Chavez government and, among MANY statistics indicating dramatic economic and social progress was one that really sticks with me: A 45% increase in high school and higher education enrollment (1999-2006). That statistic says it all. It is the direct result of the Chavez government's commitment to education and funding of education.

Clown? Fool? Dictator? Bullshit! Nobody who accomplishes that is a fool or a dictator. And, like I said, there are many more similar statistics--on health care, on the education of doctors, on the building of medical clinics in poor areas, on infant morality, on employment, on private sector and general economic growth, on poverty reduction, and on and on.

Several of the reports are listed here, for anyone interested in the facts.
http://ideas.repec.org/e/pwe148.html

[sylvi]

80. You read like a press release

What are you, his publicist? At any rate, none of what you've stated lends any credence to his accusation that our aid is merely a smokescreen to cover an "occupation."

[Karenina]

130. Perhaps you'd be interested in what the Haitians themselves have to say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F5TwEK24sA&feature=channel

[Judi Lynn]

167. Even if the ones who need to see that news clip refuse, many more of us will.Thank you. n/t

[PacerLJ35]

212. That video is a one-sided farce intended to provoke

As the announcer states that the US isn't allowing any non-US aircraft in, you can see a Qatari C-17, a Chilean 757 and a TU-154 (Russian-made airplane) of an unidentified nation in the background. Indeed.

[ProudDad]

223. The announcer stated that once the USAmerikan Imperial military

took over, only certain aircraft was allowed to land -- mostly USAmerikan military...

Take the wax out...

[PacerLJ35]

225. I don't need to take the wax out because I have friends there that would dispute that claim

And if you look at the ramp in the later frames, every aircraft in sight is either civilian or a foreign government aircraft like Chile's 757.

By the way, I'm an officer in the "USAmerikan military" (US military to the non-paranoid)

[ProudDad]

236. Big surprise

then you're a completely impeachable source.

Since you've bought into the military programming that I had sense enough to reject when I resigned from the Navy lo those many years ago...upon finding out what a useless, impotent tool the military was...

[PacerLJ35]

239. Nothing bought...

Friend of mine who's a MC-130H flight engineer was among the first in, delivered a CCT team to set up a tower for the airport. Been back several times since, and the airport is full of aircraft, civil and military. His words. I'd go but I can't. The ICAO requested US support to operate the airfield, in part because we were the only ones immediately ready to assume such a mission.

Sorry your Navy career didn't work out...I'm sure that huge chip you've got on your shoulder hasn't affected you at all.

[ProudDad]

243. No chip on my shoulder

Just knowledge and wisdom that easily and completely countered the fallacious programming that's required by the military to turn relatively normal (although hormone sodden) teenagers into killers.

I will not study war no more...

Good night now...It's been fun...

[PacerLJ35]

245. Interesting take...although not really based in the reality of things

The idea that I'm surrounded by "teenage killers" is laughable. I'm nearly 40. Perhaps if you go visit your local infantry unit that might be somewhat close to reality, but hell, the infantry is only but a part of our total military force.

FWIW I first went through Army basic training, and I was hardly a "killer" when I graduated. I wouldn't be surprised if you felt that everyone in the military has a flat-top, works out 4 hours a day and slaps their wives around. You wouldn't be the first one that thought that.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

385. Rather than be snide, perhaps you should try refuting his claims?

[ProudDad]

222. Thank you for posting this!

It's too bad that the self-styled "freest country on Earth" doesn't get any real news...

[ProudDad]

221. You're partly right

This latest military occupation is to make sure that the corporate capitalist exploitative occupation of Haiti is CONTINUED...

[EFerrari]

60. Yes, stating the obvious is insufferable isn't it?

Especially when it's so ugly.

[sylvi]

77. What you label as obvious

is anything but. How about you give our president a chance to help the people of Haiti before you jump on the Chavez bandwagon of calling it an "occupation."

lol

[EFerrari]

32. Bush forbade Aristide to return home, which of course is illegal

under international law.

Last week Aristide said he intends to go home.

This could get very interesting.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. When did Bush do that?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

47. Here's a good rundown, video and transcript, by Randall Robinson.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/179578

Condi Rice threatened Jamaica when they initially gave asylum to Aristide. That's how he wound up in South Africa.

I also found a cache of new items from April 2004 and posted snips and the link here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x29265

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

386. But...would it be? Aristide didn't accomplish much as President anyway.

[Odin2005]

34. STFU, Hugo!

[Socal31]

43. Wow.

What a moron.

[RZM]

44. When disaster strikes . . .

A public figure's reactions can speak volumes about their character. I try to give Hugo the benefit of the doubt and I'd like to think I weigh his actions and statements fairly on their own merits (or lack thereof), but this is just plain disingenuous. Hugo's a military man and he's not a moron - he knows full well why the marines are there and the relationship between military and aid operations in a situation like this. He also knows that the US has little to gain (aside from intangible moral capital - which he doesn't want Obama building) in Haiti right now. He's trying to squeeze some political hay out of the mass suffering, same as Rush. I'm glad people here are calling him out on it. I for one am proud our military is being used this way.

[bemildred]

46. Opportunity knocks ... nt

[EFerrari]

49. Most of these posters have no idea that Washington controls Haiti

and that the establishment wants to keep it that way.

Unreal.

[RZM]

55. What on earth does that have to do

with the relationship between the presence of organized and trained military units and the logistics of aid disbursement in a chaotic disaster area? In the long run that relationship facilitates the equitable and orderly distribution of aid in such an environment. Whether or not Washington 'controlled' Haiti the day before the quake is irrelevant in that context. Who do you think actually gets the food and medicine in a lawless environment when you don't have an outside force overseeing the process? Your average starving person or the people with the most guns?

[EFerrari]

56. Maybe you should think through your own question

because I already have and don't need to do it again. And at no point have I advocated for no security during this relief operation. :hi:

[RZM]

61. The impression I get from your posts

is that you believe the most salient factor in the presence of US marines in Haiti right now is to ensure Washington's control of the country. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but that's the impression I get. If that is your position then I disagree; I think the most salient factor is to ensure orderly arrival and disbursement of aid. My belief that you desired a less-secure operation was apparently mistaken, but I still question what Washington's previous relationship with Haiti has to do with the advantages that the presence of the Marines can give to an orderly aid effort. Seems to me you want it both ways -- you want a secure operation and at the same time to obliquely cast aspersions on the presence and nature of the securing force. Maybe you should outline what you think is the best way for Washington to carry out the aid effort in a secure and politically neutral manner.

[EFerrari]

64. There should be nothing oblique or even opaque about my position.

If there is, I apologize for that.

Washington's first goal is to remain in control of Haiti. A co-existing goal is this relief effort.

It's not that I want it both ways or even that Washington does. The earthquake created a precarious political situation so handling this humanitarian crisis serves both the purpose of helping the Haitians and of remaining in control politically. They dovetail.

[RZM]

69. Ok . . .

point taken. But if Washington does not 'want it both ways' and political 'control' inevitably accompanies an efficient, timely, and secure aid effort, how is that evidence of anything other than the fact than the most organized armed force in a chaotic area will be in control of it? Is there any way for the administration to carry out this operation at a quick speed, with the resources that are on hand, without reinforcing what you already believe? I'm not being sarcastic - is there another way?

[EFerrari]

74. I believe you are not being sarcastic.

The problem here isn't, as Chavez said, the large coordinated relief effort that requires security. How else could it be done?

But the fact is, it's not happening in a vacuum. That's all and it's very possible that most Americans are completely unaware of that.

[RZM]

81. I'm glad you've brought us back

to the original point of the post, which is Chavez's comments. If this needs to be done and it can't be done right any other way, then why criticize it, other than to score political points? That's my original point - I think to do so is to make political hay out of a tragedy, which I disapprove of. You saying this stuff on a web forum is one thing, Chavez saying it on the world stage is quite another. He's supposed to be a statesman and (IMO) to conduct himself with a certain level of grace on the world stage. Casting a negative pall over an aid effort that is the best response, given the circumstances, seems pretty mean-spirited and selfish. It's not about his assessment of the US government right now, it's about relief in Haiti. Now is the time for governments to cooperate in the aid effort, not to take potshots at one another. There will be plenty of time for that once the worst of the crisis has passed.

[EFerrari]

84. He made a balanced statement to his own populace

and Reuters amplified his statement.

That happens to everything he says at least once a week.

And now would be the time to advise the State Department that Latin America is not unaware of their agenda. Not next week, now. Chavez is the official bad cop for the region. Lula is the good cop. That's just the way it is. :)

[RZM]

95. I see . . .

So this was just for domestic consumption and he's a victim of Reuters' biased 'amplification'. He cultivates a high profile on the international stage and he knows full well his statements concerning America are an important aspect of this.

[EFerrari]

99. Yes, that's precisely right.

A university in Great Britain just did a study on the bias of Chavez reporting. Let's see if I can find the link.

Here:

http://www.herald.co.zw/inside.aspx?sectid=14397&cat=10

And the BBC has less need to spin than our presstitutes do.

But, go ahead and blame Chavez if you feel the need. I doubt that it troubles him very much.

[RZM]

109. Well then, by that logic

I imagine you were also critical of Reuters in 2002 when they 'amplified' Bush's 'Axis of Evil' line at the expense of many other items in a speech he made to 'his own populace.'

Please.

You know full well that high-profile leaders often have the foreign audience in mind when making domestic speeches or comments to their own media outlets. Do you think that Reuters has an obligation to emphasize Chavez's statements on Venezuelan agriculture as much as they do his statements about his own foreign policy or assessments of the foreign policies of other nations? I'm not saying there's not media bias regarding Chavez, of course there is. But in any case Chavez undoubtedly knew this comment would be picked up by the international media and I believe he intended it to be.

[EFerrari]

111. You bet I am. I also called out the NYTs when they ignored

the theft of 2004.

Please yourself. :)

[bemildred]

65. Welcome to DU.

Without inserting myself into this any more than I already am, I just want to point out that the two objectives are not mutually exclusive, one can be out to provide aid in the most efficient way possible, and also intend to use that for political purposes. There are in fact a large variety of different agendas at work in the relief effort, some of them less praiseworthy than others, and all of them deserve to be discussed.

[Jax]

126. Thank you, because of your efforts here, and Judi Lynn's as well

I get it.

Please keep it up.

You have so much more class as a DUer than I will ever have and I learn MUCH from you and count on you and Judi Lynn.

Thank you from this because o you and your efforts a better liberal citizen of the World. Better because of your knowledge you share here every single day. It matters. It makes a difference. It does.

Alyce

[ProudDad]

224. The military is a blunt hammer

It's the WORST tool to be using for humanitarian purposes.

This glorification of the military is sickening and deadly to human progress.

There's NOTHING glorious about the military and their "training" is antithetical to this purpose...

[PacerLJ35]

227. We train for this all the time

Half of our missions are in support of some kind of humanitarian mission. No other force out there is as capable of moving vast amounts of supplies and help to places that need it.

[ProudDad]

238. Hell, Amtrack and UPS could

if they had the kind of trillions wasted on the war machine...

Or Oxfam and Doctors without Borders...

And they'd be a hell of a lot better at it.

[PacerLJ35]

242. WTF?

Amtrack is a rail service...I'm sure they would be a real help resupplying an island nation. UPS is a privately-owned company, not ideally outfitted to fly outsized cargo to airfields with no or little support. You're really quite naive and seems you've bought into the whole anti-military nonsense. Your whole premise is based on pure conjecture and not even remotely based in reality. Sure, I could say all I wanted to about this or that, but the point is, it's not that way nor will it be that way.

[Judi Lynn]

267. Take time to know more about the subject. Wild, uninformed accusations don't carry weight

with serious people who'd rather know the facts than hear empty, hawkish, uninformed raving.

Venezuela sent supplies, LOTS of supplies to Haiti before the US did, and has sent more plane loads, and two ship loads since then.

They also didn't try to take over, choosing to help, instead.

[Cha]

50. That is the "correct translation", isn't it?

If so..then he's a stupid fucker and blowhard who's not helping the Planet or Haiti.

This isn't about him ..it's about helping Haiti.

[EFerrari]

54. Um, Venezuela had teams on the ground before we did.

And try reading the thread. There is a context and a history to what Chavez is saying as well as an immediate political situation that the State Department must be watching with their usual assiduity.

[Cha]

57. How dare that idiot try to make political points out of Haiti's tragedy.

[EFerrari]

59. By stating the obvious? And, btw, Haiti is a lot closer to Venezuela

and Cuba, both of whom have supported Haiti through thin and thin, than it ever has been to the United States.

In fact, Haiti funded and armed Bolivar.

[Cha]

66. Chavez is such a jealous blowhard.

[EFerrari]

67. Well,there's no arguing with your informed opinion. n/t

[ProudDad]

226. No, it's about makin' sure them cheap Haitians keep makin' them baseballs... (n/t)

[Judi Lynn]

268. Venezuela sent supplies IMMEDIATELY, and personnel, and additional supplies

by plane, and in two ships, and they didn't make a huge deal about it.

Please take the time to deal with the facts. Opinions are worthless.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

427. What is the estimated amount of aid they've provided in dollars?

[Bacchus39]

53. US troops hand out meals

looks like Hugo should watch CNN

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/16/haiti.international.aid/

[ProudDad]

228. Oh, Right...CNN

the fountain of truth and right...

Get a clue -- ya' don't need no fucking military to hand out food.

There are plenty of NGOs that do it much better and cheaper!

[PacerLJ35]

240. Yes, and NGO's also have fleets of cargo aircraft that can unload with minimal ground support too...

Not to mention helicopters to fly aid to areas that roads can't reach...you are ridiculous.

[Sultana]

58. Sit down Hugo!

[golfguru]

62. Hugo can KMA n/t

[EFerrari]

68. No, Mister! You Cannot Share My Pain!

Damn Near All You Need to Know About Haiti: “NO MISTER, YOU CANNOT SHARE MY PAIN!” by John Maxwell
2010 January 17

If you shared my pain you would not continue to make me suffer, to torture me, to deny me my dignity and my rights, especially my rights to self-determination and self-expression.

Six years ago you sent your Ambassador Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary to perform an action illegal under the laws of your country, my country and of the international community of nations.

It was an act so outrageous, so bestially vile and wicked that your journalists and news agencies, your diplomats and politicians to this day cannot bring themselves to truthfully describe or own up to the crime that was committed when US Ambassador James Foley, a career diplomat, arrived at the house of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide with a bunch of CIA thugs and US Marines to kidnap the president of Haiti and his wife.

The Aristides were stowed aboard a CIA plane normally used for ‘renditions’ of suspected terrorists to the worldwide US gulag of dungeons and torture chambers.

http://hondurasoye.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/damn-near-all-you-need-to-know-about-haiti-no-mister-you-cannot-share-my-pain-by-john-maxwell/

Thanks, magbana.

[Peace Patriot]

70. I completely agree with Chavez, but I don't think now is the time to say so.

The U.S. has absolutely been surrounding Venezuela with military bases and other military assets, with our greedy war profiteers' eyes on Venezuela's oil coast. Maybe this will help some understand what's going on but I don't think it was the appropriate time to say it. Maybe a few days from now, after the dead are buried and the situation of the Haitians has been stabilized, and when the Pentagon has Haiti locked down (which is what the Pentagon seems to be aiming at). I just don't think you can argue, right now, with U.S. troop deployments to Haiti, or with the USS Carl Vincent creating potable water from sea water using its nuclear power generation and bringing 19 helicopters to haul the water directly to the Haitians in Port-au-Prince, or the USAF getting Haiti's one-strip airport up and running and directing traffic. The situation is too dire. And maybe it does need a military occupation--though I would hope it would be multi-national (there were 7,000 UN troops from 17 countries on the ground in Haiti when the quake hit, and most of them are still alive and active and helping).

Haiti's situation is staggeringly nightmarish and difficult. Basically, somebody has to re-create an entire city, from scratch, for 2-3 million people and thousands of aid workers. NOTHING is working in Port-au-Prince. All the hospitals collapsed in ruins, with all the patients, doctors and nurses in them. No school or church was left standing. Most public buildings were down. Masses of apartment buildings and houses went down. Electricity, communications, water system, sewage system--all down. There is no safe shelter anywhere. The entire UN office building fell down on the head of the UN mission and a hundred staff members. There are at least a hundred thousand dead. Tens of thousands injured.

I think we just have to accept that the Pentagon is going to be occupying Haiti for a long time, if not permanently, whatever its motives, and I have no illusions about the Pentagon's motives.

But I'm not the President of Venezuela. He has his own responsibilities and concerns, and his government was the FIRST to pledge aid to Haiti and get a 50+ member rescue team and aid in the air.

[pjt7]

76. Chavez is on to something here

.

[Pavulon]

82. Its called crack. Thats what he is on

and anyone stupid enough to believe what he says should be ashamed of themselves unless they suffer from a developmental disability. No excuse for that level of stupidity.

[Peace Patriot]

83. Yes, I know. And he has more right to say it than anybody.

I wouldn't have said it just yet, but I'm not a leader with a CIA bull's eye target on my back, nor am I responsible for a country whose main oil resources and facilities are clearly being surrounded with Pentagon war assets.

[Pavulon]

88. If we wanted him dead he would die, just like Diem.

he is using the US to scapegoat the absolute failure of his nation. No power, inflation, currency devaluation, and continued poverty.

But hey, he took over a grocery store. Should be all good.

[Peace Patriot]

178. Pavulon, your disinformation is mindboggling.

"...continued poverty."

The Chavez government has met all of their Millennium goals, has cut poverty IN HALF and has cut extreme poverty by 70%.

"...currency devaluation"

Long needed, long expected, voluntary. It was not a forced devaluation. It improved Venezuela's rating on the S&P Index and is considered a positive move by most analysts.

"...inflation"

Yup, a problem. But it was generated by sizzling economic growth, sustained over a five year period. Over 10% growth rate, 2003-2008, with the most growth in the private sector, not including oil. Their decision to devalue the bolivar now, coming off such growth and in good shape for recovery for what our fuckwad corporateers did to the world, is a sign of confidence.

"...No power"

That is simply NOT true. They are having rolling blackouts in some areas, and in some sectors, due to a drought (70% of their electricity comes from hydroelectric power). You gonna blame the fires out of control all over Colombia, caused by the same drought, on Uribe? The whole region is being hit by this drought. The Chavez government is dealing with it. They are allotting power. And they canceled the blackouts in Caracas.

"...he is using the US to scapegoat the absolute failure of his nation."

"The absolute failure of his nation" is absolute bullshit. Poverty cut in half. Unemployment only 7%. GDP has doubled. 45% increase in high school and higher education enrollment. Big increases in the number of doctors, in the number of primary care medical centers, in the number of schools built, the infant mortality rate cut in half, and more. Economically: low debt, high cash reserves, good credit, and conservative budget for 2010, based on $40/barrel for oil (It's already higher)--i.e., half of government revenues will be higher than their budgeted for. And that conservative budget included full funding of social programs.

And besides all this--virtually every social indicator up and most economic indicators up--the Chavez government has done more for human and civil rights than any government Venezuela has ever had--by their advocacy of equal rights for women, gays, African-Venezuelans, the indigenous and other previously excluded groups, by their encouragement of maximum citizen participation in government and politics, by their representing the interests of the poor majority--workers, the elderly, students, small businesses (such as street vendors), worker co-ops and small farmers. They have brought the people into Venezuelan democracy. It was only theoretical before, with vast neglect and exclusion of the poor majority and failure to provide public services in poor areas, where the majority of people live. They have created a forward-looking society. They are going to have twice the high school and higher education graduates than they had when they started out. This means a better educated work force and an increase in professionals--doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers. It creates hope. It creates upward mobility. It creates the future. They have invested in the people.

"...absolute failure of his nation" is mindboggling disinformation.

As for "scapegoating the U.S.," um, yeah, the U.S. is just this weak, skinny little kid with thick glasses getting picked on by the playground bully.

:rofl:

Difficult to scapegoat "the empire," Pavulon--with its thousand military bases around the world, two wars going, disgraceful behavior in abetting a rightwing coup in Honduras, utter malfeasance on banksterism--crashing the world economy--plenty of cash for the USAID/CIA to fuck up every democracy in Latin America but no health care for half of our own people and our school system going down--and our greedy, murderous war profiteers with their greedy thieving eyes on every resource on mother earth. Poor babies! Getting scapegoated... it just brings tears to your eyes...

:nopity:

[Pavulon]

184. Call it, Did we just invade haiti or not? Yes or no.

your guy is acting just like bush. You guy says we just invaded, what do you say?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

429. Agreed.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

428. It's interesting to me

that when the U.S. military quietly abandons bases as required (y'know, instead of offin' the leaders who refuse to extend the leases) and reconfigures its resources in countries that welcome it, you are convinced there's a conspiracy afoot. It's as if the U.S. simply cannot win with you.

[jefferson_dem]

91. Omit the "to" and you got it.

:)

[EFerrari]

261. Now others are saying the same thing, Brazil, Italy, France

Doctors Without Borders and Anderson Cooper.

I guess they're all on something, too. Damn, I always miss the best parties.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

430. It's interesting to me that countries who, in reality, have contributed very little

to the relief effort (France, Italy) are so eager to play big dog on this.

[TCJ70]

89. Why is it still LBN when Chavez says something inflammatory?

It's less than shocking anymore.

[Pavulon]

90. He has disciples here.

they will be tried in the coming time as their master continues to falter in the face of a collapsing economy and can only resort to saying stupid shit to the media.

Fun to watch though.

[SandWalker1984]

93. With 'friends' like the US, Haiti doesn't need enemies.

A little history for those of you who are not up to speed on the US and CIA's interference in Haiti over the last few decades:


Haiti, Machete Gangs and Martial Law: Part 1
http://www.moneyteachers.org/Haiti.htm


First off, a little history. Haiti has a history of military dictatorships installed and controlled by the CIA.

"From 1957 to 1986, the Duvalier family reigned as dictators, turning the country into a hermit kingdom with a personality cult and corruption. They created the private army and terrorist death squads known as Tonton Macoutes. Many Haitians fled to exile in the United States and Canada, especially French-speaking Quebec. In the 1970s the United States funded major efforts to establish assembly plants for U.S. manufacturers. In the mid 1980s the US continued military and economic aid to the regime.

In 1986 protests against "Baby Doc" led the U.S. to arrange for Duvalier and his family to be exiled to France. Army leader General Henri Namphy headed a new National Governing Council.

In March 1987 a new Constitution was overwhelmingly approved by the population. General elections in November were aborted hours after dozens were shot by soldiers and the Tonton Macoute in the capital and scores more around the country.

To prevent dissidents from gaining any real influence, the CIA trained "death squads" to hunt down and murder political opponents to its policies. A CIA front company was brought in.

"Moreover, US troops remained in the country until 1999. The Haitian armed forces were disbanded and the US State Department hired a mercenary company DynCorp to provide "technical advice" in restructuring the Haitian National Police (HNP).


"DynCorp has always functioned as a cut-out for Pentagon and CIA covert operations." (See Jeffrey St. Clair and Alexander Cockburn, Counterpunch, February 27, 2002, http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=1988 ) Under DynCorp advice in Haiti, former Tonton Macoute and Haitian military officers involved in the 1991 Coup d'Etat were brought into the HNP."

Many people still believe that the CIA was making the Caribbean Island safe from Communism. In reality, other motives were at work:
" According to the US Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), Haiti remains "the major drug trans-shipment country for the entire Caribbean region, funneling huge shipments of cocaine from Colombia to the United States." (See US House of Representatives, Criminal Justice, Drug Policy and Human Resources Subcommittee, FDHC Transcripts, 12 April 2000).

It is estimated that Haiti is now responsible for 14 percent of all the cocaine entering the United States, representing billions of dollars of revenue for organized crime and US financial institutions, which launder vast amounts of dirty money. The global trade in narcotics is estimated to be of the order of 500 billion dollars.

Much of this transshipment trade goes directly to Miami, which also constitutes a haven for the recycling of dirty money into bona fide investments, e.g. in real estate and other related activities."

This fact was not lost on John Kerry's committee in the U.S.Congress:
{b]The evidence confirms that the CIA was protecting this trade during the Duvalier era as well as during the military dictatorship (1991-1994). In 1987, Senator John Kerry as Chairman of the Subcommittee on Narcotics, Terrorism and International Operations of the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee was entrusted with a major investigation, which focused on the links between the CIA and the drug trade, including the laundering of drug money to finance armed insurgencies. "The Kerry Report" published in 1989, while centering its attention on the financing of the Nicaraguan Contra, also included a section on Haiti:

"Kerry had developed detailed information on drug trafficking by Haiti’s military rulers that led to the indictment in Miami in 1988, of Lt. Col. Jean Paul. The indictment was a major embarrassment to the Haitian military, especially since Paul defiantly refused to surrender to U.S. authorities.. In November 1989, Col. Paul was found dead after he consumed a traditional Haitian good will gift—a bowel of pumpkin soup...

The U.S. senate also heard testimony in 1988 that then interior minister, Gen. Williams Regala, and his DEA liaison officer, protected and supervised cocaine shipments. The testimony also charged the then Haitian military commander Gen. Henry Namphy with accepting bribes from Colombian traffickers in return for landing rights in the mid 1980’s.

It was in 1989 that yet another military coup brought Lt. Gen. Prosper Avril to power... According to a witness before Senator John Kerry’s subcommittee, Avril is in fact a major player in Haiti’s role as a transit point in the cocaine trade." ( Paul DeRienzo, Haiti’s Nightmare: The Cocaine Coup & The CIA Connection, Spring 1994, http://globalresearch.ca/articles/RIE402A.html )

The names have changed, but the business has remained the same.

*********************************

Then there's President Bill Clinton's influence in Haiti:

Haiti – Regime Change: Caught between a rock and a Bush

By William Bowles

Food First, a US NGO in a report identified US policies as directly responsible for the destruction of Haiti’s indigenous food production. Moreover, the Clinton administration demanded that the main condition for the removal of the military junta which had deposed Aristide’s government in 1991 was the acceptance of US-imposed conditions which included,

" eliminat the jobs of half its civil servants, massively privatize public services, dramatically slash tariffs and import restrictions, get rid of price and foreign exchange controls, grant "emergency" aid to the export sector, reinforce an "open foreign investment policy," create special corporate courts where "judges are more aware of the implications of their decisions for economic efficiency," rewrite its corporate laws, limit the scope of state activity and regulation and diminish the power of the executive branch in favor of the traditionally more conservative Parliament."

The Food First article continues,

"In 1994 USAID claimed it was feeding upwards of 70,000 Haitians per day. It insists U.S. food aid is not competing with Haitian production because the food provided is not grown in Haiti. But Haitian and U.S. researchers have concluded what Food First has argued for years-that U.S. food aid is undermining local production.

Please go to
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3594.ht...
to read the rest of the informative article.

******************************

I haven't covered the sweatshops or Bush & company's overthrow of a democratically elected Aristide.

Considering the negative history of our government's and CIA's interference in Haiti, why are they really sending troops?

[Pavulon]

96. What would happen if we did nothing?

the stupidity you posted is amazing. Look in your closet, do you own a SINGLE thing from haiti. NO you dont, no shirts, nothing. Those come from asian sweatshops. Nothing in your house came from haiti.

There are millions of people being helped by the US and you post this horse shit. There is NOTHING in haiti worth the effort to take with troops. Nothing there but misery and poverty.

This is the stupidest post I have seen on the internet today. Congrats.

[SandWalker1984]

103. Do your kids wear Disney pjs? Sweatshops in Haiti make them.

What about clothes sold thru K-Mart and J. C. Penney? They could also be made in Haitian sweatshops.

Disney's Hell in Haiti
This Week in Haiti, Haiti Progres, 3–9 January 1996. Workers stitching clothing emblazoned with feel-good Disney characters are not even paid enough to feed themselves, let alone their families, charges the New York-based National Labor Committee Education Fund in Support of Worker and Human Rights in Central America (NLC).

Haiti sweatshops: Your taxes at work—pushing wages down
By Julia Lutsky, People's Weekly World, 23 March 1996. Haitian sweatshops pay starvation wages. Blatant abuses of labor and illegal practices are blatant. US manufacturers look for third world countries where high unemployment, poverty, and malnutrition generate low wages. The US has pressed businesses to invest in Haiti and has given them tax breaks. USAID pressure kept the legal minimum wage at $2.40 per day.

Workers get eight cents an hour
This Week in Haiti, Haiti Progres, 1–7 May 1996. Seamfast Manufacturing, which sews for K-mart and J.C. Penney, has been paying some workers one-third minimum wage, about 10 gourdes for eight hours (64 U.S. cents/day or 8 cents/hour).

The real Disney world—it's in Haiti
By Daniel Vila, People's Weekly World, 21 December 1996. Abusive conditions prevalent in the factories where The Disney Company gets its clothing manufactured. Protest by the National Labor Committee, a non-profit human rights advocacy group which has exposed the link between U.S. multinationals and sweatshops around the world.
Haitian Garment Factory Conditions


Democrats used to show support for labor. I guess that's changed in the 'new' DLC party.

[Pavulon]

105. Nope, my clothes are all hand woven cotton spun ..

no my shit comes from china and asia pac. Cant find a shirt that costs less than $100 (dress shirt only) that is made in the US or UK. Off the rack suits come from asia pac.

So are you saying we invaded haiti to make sure kids can still get disney products?

[Wilms]

124. Well you sure come off as ignorant.

Trade (2006 est.):

Total exports f.o.b.--$494.4 million: apparel, mangoes, leather and raw hides, seafood, electrical.

Major market--U.S.

Total imports f.o.b.--$1.54 billion: grains, soybean oil, motor vehicles, machinery, meat, vegetables, plastics, petroleum.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/1982.htm


But in fact you're self-serving.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4229651

[Pavulon]

134. So why are we invading haiti, mangoes we gotta get some mangoes man..

its a massive relief effort to save millions. Chavez is a moron. People who lick his boots here are entertaining but as he gets crazier may need an exit strategy.

Any person who believes we are invading is truly to stupid to share air with.

[Wilms]

146. There you go with your insults.

You are on record stating you've got financial interests in VZ that is at odds with the needs of the VZ people.

Too bad.

[Pavulon]

185. Umm negative I contract for a division of a state owned

company. That would be funded by the state by the people. I am on record saying the US did not invade haiti, what do you say. Did we invade or not.

[Wilms]

193. :hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4229651

[Pavulon]

195. That would be a major auto manufacturer

more than one customer there. New concept, company sells products to government and multinationals.

[Wilms]

197. Ask. Answered. Don't harass.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4229316&mesg_id=4229639

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

431. A bit vague, sir.

[Wilms]

444. Please. It's a bullshit line of questioning aimed at avoiding the subject matter.

Same people that don't want to know the abuses the US was party to in LA over the years.

THAT has to be defended on DU? We're freeped.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

447. What has to be defended is your insistence that past transgressions alone prove we're up to no good

today. That's a fairly large leap, after all, it assumes foreign policy objectives don't differ from administration to administration.

[Wilms]

452. You're new to this.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

457. Would you stick to the arguments, please?

[ChangoLoa]

139. Wilms, did you go to economics school with Sarah Palin?

What are you suggesting there, compadre? Anything more than a strange insinuation? Say what? Speak clearly!

494 million $ exports to the US. Do you say that imperial greed would lead to a disguised invasion..??

Elections coming soon in Haiti. That could be an argument. Production or resources are no argument in this case. We're talking about 2009 Haiti.

[Wilms]

145. Merely pointing out, despite the denial of Pavalon, that Haiti produces apparel

Read.

[ChangoLoa]

149. The subject was about the possible motivations for the invasion

Chavez is describing.

Read.

Some say it's the sweatshops, some think it's the resources, some others the elections but you... say that Haiti produces apparel. Thanks for the scoop.

[Wilms]

151. Here's the specific post I replied too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4229316&mesg_id=4229646

Intentionally thicker than usual?

Mr. Pavlon suggested there isn't much apparel being made in Haiti. He's wrong. Like you. The Link-less. Nothing new.

[ret5hd]

153. Good catch on a self-serving twit!

:rofl:

[Wilms]

152. By the way, here's a few places to get dress shirts made in the U.S.

http://www.whitedressshirts.com/our_shirts.php

http://www.unionlabel.com/button-up-shirts.html

Poor Pavalon can't find a shirt in the U.S. for under a hundred bucks (because he's too busy posting insults on DU).

So his answer is to support sweatshops worldwide. Typical Republican/DLCer approach to economics.

[earcandle]

119. not so, if 45k run the security economy........hmmmmm... could it be??

[Flaneur]

287. Yeah, historical context is stupid. n/t

[unkachuck]

110. thanks for the post, SandWalker1984....good info....n/t

[Judi Lynn]

269. Thank you for this outstanding material. It's important.

Wanted to mention your Information Clearing House link needs an "m" on the end to work.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3594.htm

Really appreciated reading this.

[Socal31]

104. Im not sure what party some of the whackos in this thread belong to...

But I am a (D), and I 100% support the swift humanitarian aid and compassion that my (D) president is showing in this situation.

[EFerrari]

107. As did Chavez in the comments you can read in the OP if you bother.

[Judi Lynn]

271. Oh, why bother to read the material, anyway, when they can just hit the ground gibbering, instead?

Knowing anything about the material is so boring, and takes time which could otherwise be spend attacking leftists!

Oh, whyyyyy did Senator Joseph McCarthy have to die of alcoholism so young, when he was such a "commie" hunter?



You can see how lame his would-be followers are without him.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

432. While undercutting it with accusations of imperialism.

[CLANG]

112. What a dumb fuck

What does Haiti have that we need?

Ever hear of security for the aid workers? Guess not...

[EFerrari]

113. Crack a book and answer your own question.

Or read the fifty posts to DU that have run down all the ways Haiti has been manipulated and strip mined by the US for the last 203 years. And next time, do it before you call someone a dumb fuck and save the embarrassment.

[earcandle]

118. are you saying this is where the accounting for contractors exist?

that would be a great find! 

[Pavulon]

136. Mangoes. We import mangoes and disney pajamas. The invasion

will support the ongoing supply of fruity goodness and the mango and coffee supply will not be allowed to falter. /sarcasm

I guess this is proof that if a person says something, somewhere someone will be fool enough to believe them. Sad in a way to watch, but then it does make identifying those people much easier.

[Bacchus39]

147. Disney left for Asia years ago. that leaves mangoes

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/263.html

I don't believe they make baseballs anymore either. but they do make mangoes. they must be especially delicious compared to the South and Central American varieties since we are invading the country to secure them.

[NuttyFluffers]

128. in a weeks time we will find if this is a legitimate question...

i partially suspect it is, especially with Doctors w/o Borders, Brazil (who is in charge of the UN effort there) and France -- the latter 2 putting in formal complaints to the UN -- finding the USA being more of a hinderance than a help.

besides, the main issue is to get to the region of the island. even if the infrastructure is out on the city alone, being able to get to Cape Haitien or even Dominican Republic ports would be easy to do "bomber runs" of food drops. we had a complex system of air drops in place for Berlin so close to the end of WW2 when the wall was going up; with 40+ years of technology and logistic knowhow atop that i am sure we could be doing a lot better than what we have so far.

BUT... time will tell. and i hate having me and "them dirty hippie peaceniks" being proven right time and time again. but if silent patience is needed to be "proven wrong for the better" then i will. but if suspicions are again confirmed... i'd appreciate some contrition from the knee-jerk reactionary committee for once.

so let's wait and see what happens in the next few days -- embarrassingly, we have the time to speculate on such things. :(

[demoleft]

129. after provoking the earthquake to the purpose - didn't he add this?

not even tragedies shut his mouth.
unbelievable.
unbelievable.

[Pavulon]

135. Did he say that? I wouldn't be surprised.

bet would love to see that sourced. Not attacking you but that would truly be amazing in sheer stupidity on his part.

[demoleft]

138. no, he didn't. i was just kidding him. there are more than 200000 dead people...

...and all he can say is US is occupying.
i find this disgusting.

[ChangoLoa]

140. Nice timing as usual.

Immoral to try to use this politically at the worst possible moment.

[demoleft]

141. yes. he's not famous for his delicacy. n/t

[Kurska]

148. I don't see Venezula stepping up like us, where is their 10,000 soldies?

Their massive amounts of medical, food and other types of aid haiti needs right the fuck now?

[Flaneur]

157. Venezuelan teams were there almost immediately.

I guess you didn't see them because you weren't paying attention.

[WriteDown]

182. How many in these "teams" and how many Bolivars

are the relevant questions.

[Pavulon]

188. Yep, they are running air drops, have a naval flotilla on the way

and are dropping in supplies.. Their aircraft carrier should be on station shortly to provide clean water. Oh wait they are a third world petro state funded by us consumers so they have no capacity to do much compared to a superpower. Add the commentary of their asshole president any you have reality.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

433. How many teams and of what size? How much money in aid?

[Judi Lynn]

189. They sent tons of food, provisions, medical supplies several days ago

which many of us heard already, and today they sent two ships:

~snip~

Venezuela on Monday sent two ships with over six hundred tons of food and heavy machinery.

More:
http://www.poder360.com/dailynews_detail.php?blurbid=4900#ixzz0d0i7K3o

What keeps you from finding out things the rest if us heard days ago? Is it that you only hear/see the designed-for-idiots anti-leftist propaganda?

[WriteDown]

203. Your link does not support your assertions....

where are the 6 hundred tons of food and machinery? And how many Bolivars?

[PacerLJ35]

205. Yes, you're right...we should pack up and leave Haiti, because Uncle Hugo will save them correctly

[Judi Lynn]

252. Here are other articles.. Don't know why the 1st one has changed.

Venezuela Sends First Aid Airplane to Haiti

Caracas, January 13.- Venezuela sent the first airplane with humanitarian aid to Haiti on Wednesday. The help consists on doctors, medicines, water, search and rescue experts and damage assessment specialists.

The Internal Affairs and Justice Minister Tareck el Aissami said that the Bolivarian National Armed Force's Hercules C-130 also brings tools to help in case of collapsed structures and confined areas.

El Aissami stated that there will arrive other similar cargos sent by the president Hugo Chavez to a country that received from the Liberator Simon Bolivar in its struggles for independence 200 years ago.

The airplane carries 19 doctor, 10 firemen and rescue specialists, 17 civil protection experts and three Simon Bolivar International Brigade's members to reconnoitre affected areas and evaluate damages.

More:
http://www.cadenagramonte.cubaweb.cu/english/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1406:venezuela-sends-first-aid-airplane-to-haiti&catid=3:world&Itemid=14

~~~~~~
Venezuela sends more humanitarian aid to Haiti
Source: Xinhua News Agency

Date: 18 Jan 2010

CARACAS, Jan. 18 (Xinhua) -- The Venezuelan government increased its humanitarian aid to quake-ravaged Haiti on Monday, sending 616 tons of food, medicines and drinking water in two shiploads, along with medical and rescue staff.

Venezuela on Sunday sent to Haiti a planeload of food, medicine and drinking water.

In Monday's humanitarian aid, there are 116 tons of special machinery for Haiti's reconstruction.

Some 120 rescue workers aboard the two ships will join the Mexican team of 79 rescuers who had arrived earlier.

More:
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/SNAA-7ZU88A

~~~~~~
Tuesday
January 19,2010

Venezuela Sends Haiti 5,400 Tons of Food

CARACAS – Venezuela was sending 5,400 tons of food to Haiti by sea on Monday along with a team of 120 emergency specialists and 116 tons of heavy machinery, the interior minister said.

Tarek El Aissami, aboard one of the navy vessels taking part in the operation, told the press that these shipments will complement those being sent by air.

El Aissami said that the ships – two troop transports and two freighters – would set sail for Haiti at nightfall.

He also said that this Monday the two Ilushin Il-76 transport planes, which Russia sent to guarantee the sustained sending of aid, would again take off from Venezuela with 80 tons of basic necessities as they did on Sunday.

More:
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=350665&CategoryId=10717

~~~~~~
Thanks for mentioning the story was gone, so I could post new ones.

[WriteDown]

277. How many Bolivars?

So they initially only sent a single plane? But people were starving and dying? What took them so long to send additional aid?

[Flaneur]

288. Why don't you find out how many bolivars and get back to us?

Since this information is so vitally important to you.

[WriteDown]

291. I figured the Chavistas would have the direct line....

I am not a member of the club.

[Merchant Marine]

338. 600 tons? In two ships?

That's cute, really. I'm trying not to be condescending, but really? I'm trying to figure out what class of ship has that pitiful of a cargo capacity. WW2 Liberty ships could move more cargo than that.

Here in the real world of logistics we have vessels like the Military Sealift Command Medium Speed Ro-Ro, which can move 390,000 tons of cargo at 24kts.

[Judi Lynn]

340. Please read the material in post #252. More information.

Venezuela sends Haiti 5,400 tons of food
Jan, 18, 2010 05:44 PM - EFE Ingles

Caracas, Jan 18 (EFE).- Venezuela was sending 5,400 tons of food to Haiti by sea on Monday along with a team of 120 emergency specialists and 116 tons of heavy machinery, the interior minister said.

Tarek El Aissami, aboard one of the navy vessels taking part in the operation, told the press that these shipments will complement those being sent by air.

El Aissami said that the ships - two troop transports and two freighters - would set sail for Haiti at nightfall.

He also said that this Monday the two Ilushin Il-76 transport planes, which Russia sent to guarantee the sustained sending of aid, would again take off from Venezuela with 80 tons of basic necessities as they did on Sunday.

El Aissami said that the 120 members of the Venezuelan expeditionary force would join the 79 who are already on duty in the devastated Caribbean country, adding that among the equipment being shipped are electricity generating plants and water purifiers.

President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that oil-rich Venezuela will donate to Haiti "all the fuel" it needs to deal with the dramatic situation it is going through. EFE

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=350665&CategoryId=10717
Or
http://www.poten.com/NewsDetails.aspx?id=10312370

[Merchant Marine]

341. 5,400 is at least approaching the capacity of a tramp steamer from the '50s...

[joshcryer]

507. Hahaha!

Holy shit you owe me a new keyboard and possibly computer! :rofl:

[ProudDad]

230. Soldiers are fucking useless appendages

VZ is sending in useful help...

[PacerLJ35]

233. So VZ troops are useful, but US help isn't...right.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

434. Yeah, all 19 of those doctors are really turning the tide of this thing... Hah.

[krabigirl]

155. Well, if they had oil, you bet we'd be occupying it.

[Common Sense Party]

161. Hugo is a freaking idiot who NEEDS the United States

He needs a large, imperialistic enemy--or the perception of one--so he can cast us as the big, bad bogeyman that all Venezuelans should fear...and thereby, hopefully, his subjects will forget how crappy things are getting in his country.

Hugo's days are numbered now that his petrodollar house of cards is starting to tumble.

[damntexdem]

163. Chavez is clearly wrong this time -- the U.S. doesn't want Haiti.

The problem is that no one does. And hundreds of thousands will die.

[Wilms]

175. You've read nothing on this thread. Have you?

Breathtaking.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

436. You've presented no evidence to the contrary.

[Wilms]

445. So we start from scratch with LA history every thread.

Do we have to prove the world isn't flat, as well?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

448. No one is suggesting we start from scratch

However, to insist that Obama's policy towards Haiti is in no way different from say...Wilson's requires some evidence.

[Wilms]

451. I understand. But perhaps with time...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

458. In other words, you've put the cart in front of the horse.

[EFerrari]

176. Chavez is not wrong. The US has controlled Haiti for ages.

And that control has led to a country with a government so weak they can't even respond to an earthquake.

[Pavulon]

187. Did we invade or not? Do you support what chavez said?

hate to loose you, you are interesting poster. Using this post to build my list of scum to ignore. I can not fathom any person actually believing the US government just invaded after an earthquake. Considering we are there trying to help the people.

[Judi Lynn]

192. Did you not bother to see Karenina's post #130?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4229316#4229819

It won't kill you to go to the trouble of being aware of the truth occassionally.

If you put everyone on your scum list who differs completely from you at the Democratic Underground you'll have a much smaller group of people with whom you agree. Fantastically smaller.

[Pavulon]

196. Yeah the we set off a nuke to cause the tsunami crowd are on that list

any person who says we invaded haiti is on that list. The chavez fanboi crown is entertaining. This claim is not entertaining. It is grossly wrong and sad. So if you want to back him go for it.

I would say any person who says Obama and the UN just invaded belong on that list. Your truth is not reality. There is nothing there we want, we are trying to save people.

Doing nothing, like rwanda would be a tragedy.

[PacerLJ35]

213. The "truth"? That is perhaps a great example of slanted, one-sided "journalism"

As the narrator states that the US is turning away non-US military aircraft, you can see in the background a Qatari C-17, Chilean 757, British HS.125, and an unidentified nation's Russian-made TU-154 (the US doesn't operate those). Additionally in the background I saw a couple helicopters that didn't appear to be US (it was hard to tell because of the quality of the film, but they did not immediately appear to be US).

The video also states that US military personnel are guarding the airport and they are patrolling the city, while most of the video clearly shows non-US troops that belong to a UN force.

The fact the video was made and distributed by al Jazeera is duly noted.

[EFerrari]

241. LOL. You did read the story about the guy who got a contract

from the Pentagon to decode messages from Al Qaida in AlJazeera reports and how he turned out to be a total fake, right?

And Sami al Haj, a photographer for Al Jazeera, held for years at Gitmo and tortured and interrogated, not about al Qaida but about Al Jazeera.

Massive stupidity.

[PacerLJ35]

244. Throughout history, people have found a way to scam others...

I'm sure that won't end anytime in the near future.

[EFerrari]

246. So you're saying that the Pentagon's bigotted targeting of Al Jazeera

arguably the best news outlet in the Middle East, is just human nature?

Torturing Sami was just one of those things, I guess, like your "noting" the origin of the report up thread.

Disgusting.

[PacerLJ35]

247. I had the pleasure of watching AJ for a year on Iraqi satellite...

Calling it the "best news outlet in the Middle East" is a bit of an oxymoron. They are not accurate. I'm not jumping into the side debate over the Pentagon's take on AJ, just stating their video clip above was highly inaccurate, and pretty much a hatchet job on the US effort. Period.

[EFerrari]

254. Al Jazeera is more "accurate" than most of our domestic outlets.

Why do you think Donald Rumsfeld wanted to shut them down so badly?

And there are plenty of very good journalists in the Middle East. LinkTV has a half hour news rundown which compiles ME stories on weekdays and that is better than anything done here.

http://www.linktv.org/mosaic

[PacerLJ35]

274. Hmmmm, even the Iraqis seemed to recognize that the news shows had agendas

[EFerrari]

281. The thing is, all news productions have some kind of agenda.

And that's why Rumsfeld/Cheney were so obsessed with AJ, why they shut down that big paper in Sadr City -- do you remember that? That produced the first really big demonstration against the United States by the Iraqi people themselves which later turned out to be the beginning of the insurgency, iirc.

Government control of the media is inherently undemocratic, no matter if the Iranian mullahs do it or if the Pentagon tries to do it. AJ regularly takes a lot of heat from various local governments because they are independent. I'm frankly surprised they've managed to keep their doors open.

[PacerLJ35]

297. Of course they do...

However looking at my friend's photos he took (not to mention his own experiences over the past few days) and then looking at that AJ piece shows that AJ obviously allowed their "agenda" to hijack (no pun intended) the real story.

[EFerrari]

303. Really? Then, how do you explain other outlets making similar reports?

Like Amy Goodman's this morning? She's there. If only AJ were making the militarization claim, you might have have something. But, they're not the only ones.

And I don't see any pun in your use of "hijack".

[PacerLJ35]

308. Friend of mine who's an engineer on MC-130s

Sent a message out to friends stating aid is on the ground at the airport from all over, it's not just the US military. He was just there too, and he's not a reporter trying to come up with a sensational story. I put the pun phrase in there after I reviewed my post realizing some might spin it as being a planned term. It was not, hence why I pointed that out.

[EFerrari]

483. Yes. There is aid on the ground at the airport.

Hopefully, the micromanagers at USAID will get it out to people at some point. This is Day 9.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

439. After meeting Amy Goodman and witnessing the way in which we covered some events I was at

I came to respect her journalism credentials a bit less. Perhaps if she had greater access she'd be more thorough but, as it stands, her coverage is rather superficial...

In other words, I wouldn't trust her to identify from a distance which planes are American and which are not.

[PacerLJ35]

459. Most journalists fancy themselves "experts" at a lot of things

but fail miserably. I cringe whenever they start talking aircraft, aviation or military stuff....absolutely cringe. These guys have degrees in communications or journalism, but for some reason because they interviewed a few soldiers and rode on a C-130 at some point in their career, now they're experts at knowing what's going on.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

438. You admire al-Sadr?

It seems to me, much of his interest in getting the U.S. out of Iraq was centered around his bid for power. Oh, and for someone whose typically so eager to portray herself as a champion of the poor vs. the death squads, al-Sadr's men sure did a number of thousands of unarmed Sunni civilians.

[Meshuga]

292. I agree

The UN troops are led by Brazil to keep the order in the streets (therefore you are expected to see lots of armed troops) and the US is obviously guarding the airport since the Haitian government gave the US control over the airport.

There was a fuck up by the US making the wrong decisions that caused some of the airplanes with aid land elsewhere but this has all been cleared up. Celso Amorim (Brazilian Foreign Minister) called Hillary Clinton who is doing everything to cooperate with Brazil.

I am following all this through the Brazilian media who would be alarmed if the US had second intentions. But they are not.

So the willingness to accept conspiracies in this thread is beyond stupid.

[Meshuga]

293. I've seen it and I call it bullshit

If you are willing to accept that slanted piece of reporting it is your problem but I have read enough to see how that was put together out of context.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

437. And again, you're reducing actors in the Third World to the status of helpless pawns

in your analysis of historical events. Luckily, I always had professors who wisely warned against such things.

[C_Lawyer09]

186. US troops are there to provide aid and security

If anybody is questioning that, look at the UN Mission MINUSTAH. I know this is hard to believe, but Cite de' Soleil, the 400,000 person slum posed huge problems before this disaster. This troop arrival has nothing to do with controlling anything, regardless of historical tid bits. Secondly, UN efforts versus US troop efforts have a dismal success rate. What do you think would happen, command and control wise of a segment that speaks 28 different languages as in MINUSTAH? Come on guys, try harder if you want to spew anti-US rhetoric.

[ProudDad]

214. As usual, Hugo hit the USAmerikan Imperial nail on the head.

First thing I thought when I found that the US has already sent in the marines and can't even fucking fly in water and food...

It's nice to see SOME world leaders speaking the truth to power...

[PacerLJ35]

231. You are wrong

The Marines can, in fact, fly in food and water...but you're missing the rest of the picture because most of those involved are Navy and Air Force.

[ProudDad]

232. Southwest Airlines can

fly in food and water.

We don't need no fucking clueless marines...

The military, as usual, is the wrong tool...

[PacerLJ35]

234. You are the one who is clueless

Sure, tear out the SWA 737 seats and load the pallets where? Right...SWA 737s aren't configured for cargo. Oops...

[Prometheus Bound]

251. I keep wondering why they can't hire Haitians to unload planes and so forth.

Haitian controllers are apparently running the airport landings even without radar, though the US decides landing priorities.

I would guess there are a few million Haitians who would love to be asked to help out.

But I know, we aren't supposed to question things.

Mind you the military earlier decided air drops were too dangerous, but now they've tried it without incident they've decided they need to do more of it. Finally.

[hack89]

270. Because quickly unloading planes requires trained operators

with experience and using special equipment. Cargo pallets, for example, weigh tons. If your goal is to get planes unloaded and off the ground as quickly as possible to allow another one to land then a group of untrained people is not what you need.

[WriteDown]

276. When are you renting your boat?

Shouldn't be too diffcult. Its a short voyage from the southern tip of Florida to Haiti. You could load up with supplies and be there in no time. And boating doesn't require much training, especially once you get to deep water.

[Merchant Marine]

339. Let me know when southwest airlines

Owns the largest and most capable shipping fleet under the US flag. Where commercial ships needs established ports with modern equipment, MSC can operate even in a Haitian breakbulk port that was designed when people thought pallets were new and scary cargo handling technology.

Look up Military Sealift Command and try to tell me who can meet that transport capacity.

Hilariously for your example, Southwest Airlines operates no large jets, they only fly the 737. Even assuming they're all the newest models, which they ain't, a 737 can move 80,000 pounds 2,400 nautical miles. Oh, and you'd have to strip out the seats and load cargo up and down the passenger ladder, since there's no cargo doors.

An evil imperialistic military C-5 Galaxy, on the other hand can move 300,000 lbs of cargo 2,400 nautical miles. Unlike the 737, it can refuel in flight, and has large cargo doors so it can be quickly unloaded.

But hey, in your world its ok for the Haitians to starve to death on a trickle of aid as long as it wasn't delivered by the evil military foreign adventurers!

[PacerLJ35]

403. FWIW, a few corrections

Just so those on the other side of this argument don't skewer you for being "inaccurate"...

SWA does operate some of the newer B737s, but again, as stated in a few other posts they don't have a cargo door, and they aren't modified for cargo (no floor reinforcements, etc). So at best it could carry hand-loaded boxes distributed evenly across the floor, and that would take hours to upload and offload.

The C-5 Galaxy can indeed carry tons of stuff, but they are really too large for this operation, so they haven't been used to move stuff directly to Haiti. They have likely been used to move stuff to forward staging locations, however.

Again, I snicker at the idea of drafting SWA to do this kind of work...it's kind of like your friend asking you to help him move his furniture in your brand new Volkwagen Jetta. Right.

[Odin2005]

354. "AmeriKa" = Instant FAIL.

[Tx4obama]

256. Arm chair critics ...

Would you go into a devastated county that has NO POLICE, NO SECURITY AT ALL ... where there are TENS of thousands of hungry homeless people if you were a DOCTOR, NURSE, RESCUE WORKER, ETC.? I think not. Security is a very important part of any relief mission.

Do you want the Haitians to revolt and take over the airport?
Do you want the Haitians to storm the airport and take it over?
Do you want the Haitians to storm the airport and ransack the food, water, and medical supplies?

That is what would happen if there wasn't security there to maintain law and order.

And don't forget that there are 4,000 prison inmates that escaped the Haiti prison that are still out there lose causing havoc.

The military DID need to land first... they were the ones that got the airport in shape and operational ... they were the ones that set up the air traffic control... etc.

If you are not supporting the USA then why don't you just move to Russia or Iran or some other country that doesn't like us? We don't need your negativity and unAmerican BS!

It's arm-chair critics like the 'bashers' that give the USA a bad name.

Think about it!

In conclusion...

President Obama has done everything in his power to help in this natural catastrophe and is working with the United Nations and for people to bash Obama and the USA is sickening.

The majority of the U.N. officials that were in Haiti are DEAD lying under the collapsed buildings. The majority of the Haitian police force have disappeared and are not providing security. So, you want our American doctors, nurses, and rescue workers to land there in Haiti in the middle of chaos WITHOUT some semblance of security to protect them? I THINK NOT!

If Ya'll think that Europe could do a better job? Or Russia? Or China? Then, hey let's bring ALL of our folks home and let the other guys have the mess!

I am really sick and tired of President Obama trying his best to clean up messes that he is not responsible for and then American and PEOPLE HERE ON DU, republicans, trolls, and people around the world bashing his for his efforts!

[EFerrari]

259. Would it make your head explode to know that Norwegian teams

with heavy equipment, Cuba medical teams and relief teams from Venezuela were in there BEFORE the State Department had the Pentagon"secure" sh!t? I think the Chinese, too.

And, btw, why are you so afraid of Haitians?

[Tx4obama]

273. Why are you being rude? I never said I was afraid of anyone

you're ASSUMING is making an ass out of you and not me ;)
The point is that it is not a good idea to put doctors, nurses, rescue teams, etc. in a situation that is not secured.

[EFerrari]

280. The Cubans who iirc set up the first field hospital had no problem with "security".

[demoleft]

282. there is a "security" problem. "Looting spreads as UN calls for additional troops"

"Bands of looters on Monday swarmed across earthquake-stricken Port-au-Prince, pillaging whatever they could find among the ruins of shops, factories and even homes in the capital. Local police, like the Haitian government, were conspicuous by their absence, raising international concerns over the security situation in the aftermath of the killer quake."

france24, http://www.france24.com/en/20100119-haiti-earthquake-aftermath-looting-port-au-prince-us-forces-ban-ki-moon


i would be glad to see american soldiers protecting cuban doctors and nurses.
that's the spirit of the whole operation - just as when cuba opened its skies to US planes to get quicker in haiti.

gangs and desperadoes operate in the streets there. i would not send a nurse/doctor without a soldier to protect him/her and the equipment.

ciao you there :)

[EFerrari]

286. NOW there is a problem on those streets. After seven days,

I'd be out there, too, I guess.

Amy Goodman said something interesting today. She said it looks like distribution is being held up because the folks doing it seem afraid of the people. So, instead of enlisting community leaders to help with the distribution, there is no interaction, the distribution has been slowed down, and the people keep getting more stressed out by their hunger and thirst and now by all those weapons all over the place.

Well, I'm glad they're doing drops regardless. Pobre gente. :(

[Flaneur]

289. It's kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it?

We don't send distribute food and water and medicine because we're afraid of security issues that seem to be pretty much non-existent, but after waiting in the rubble for almost a week, looting and violence starts to break out. Gotta send in the Marines!

[EFerrari]

290. If you can, watch Amy's show today. The reporting is outstanding.

She and her producer went to Haiti and they left the capitol, going down the coast where there are no Marines.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

441. Actually, the reports of violence were coming out within the first day or two

but if you want to overlook that, be my guest.

[Meshuga]

294. The US was given control of the airport by Haiti

Don't you think it is obvious the US need to secure it? No one is afraid of the Haitians but UN troops (lead by Brazil) are there to provide much needed security.

[Prometheus Bound]

272. The US general in charge says there's been less crime after the earthquake than before.

Course the newspaper headline writers don't like that sort of comment.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

442. I don't know how in God's name one would judge that, considering

how the police have been non-existent since the quake.

[sabrina 1]

476. Wow, those scary Haitians might revolt!!

Funny how everyone who was there before the U.S. war machine arrived, had zero fear of any such thing. Doctors, nurses, reporters, first responders, from all over the world have expressed shock that the U.S. is focusing on security rather than saving lives, and all have said this way overblown as there have been no signs of the Haitian people being anything but patient and grateful and happy to see anyone coming to help.

Chavez of course is right. Go read some U.S./Haitian history, right up to the present day before the knee-jerk reaction to the now thoroughly sickening propaganda this country spews about Chavez and Haiti and any other country that has the nerve to want to be independent of colonialism.

[wordpix]

317. so what's Hugo done lately for Haiti?

[PacerLJ35]

324. For the record...

I did see a FAV C-130 landing there on a news segment, and they were among the aircraft my friend Bill saw at the airport. However, Hugo needs to realize the US has sent in dozens of aircraft. The reason why it seems so many are US are for a number of reasons:

1) The US is very close
2) The US has a large number of airlift aircraft well suited to this type of operation
3) The US has the capacity to send these aircraft to Haiti quickly

Other nations are sending aid and aircraft one or two at a time. The US has a huge supply network already in place, with aircraft staging out of Homestead ARB in Florida, and other aircraft coming out of bases like Hurlburt Field FL (MC-130), Charleston AFB SC (C-17), Dover AFB DE (C-17), Travis AFB CA (C-17), March ARB CA (C-17), Little Rock AFB AR (C-130J), Dyess AFB TX (C-130), Pope AFB NC (C-130), Youngstown ARB OH (C-130), Peterson AFB CO (C-130), Maxwell AFB (C-130), Puerto Rico (C-130), and a number of other locations.

Venezuela has six C-130s. The USAF operates around 400 C-130s and 185+ C-17s.

Six airlifters...versus nearly 600, of which around 200 of those are heavy airlifters. I'm not even counting the C-5 because those things are too big for this operation.

[EFerrari]

330. The Ven medical team was one of the first ones in after the Cubans.

They also sent a planeload of supplies and some money. There's an article about it somewhere in the LatAm forum.

ETA: Venezuela and Haiti are actually close. Haiti gave asylum to, bankrolled and armed Simon Bolivar so the relationship goes back a long way.


/typo

[PacerLJ35]

331. Great pictures (and story)

A reporter from the Abilene, TX newspaper rode with a Dyess AFB C-130...I copied the link to this pic, it was the last C-130 I flew prior to leaving that squadron a few years ago...I flew 1669 on a low-level through the Texas mountains for my last flight.

http://www.reporternews.com/photos/galleries/2010/jan/18/dyess-haiti/14656/

[DeadEyeDyck]

342. Simply put

give me a fucking break...

[citizen snips]

345. Chavez is just jealous of our military capability.

[PacerLJ35]

407. What are you talking about?

I'm sure his half-dozen older C-130s are much more impressive than the several hundred USAF C-130s, including the C-130J. Hell, his are even painted in camo...

[citizen snips]

410. We have the navy and the 82 airborne on the ground.

we have medical doctors on the ground where are exactly are the Venezuelan doctors and the Venezuelan rescue teams?

[PacerLJ35]

412. Hugo sent a single C-130 in...

Maybe he feels sending 2 C-130s would constitute a military occupation of Haiti...

[citizen snips]

415. good for him

But I highly doubt if he sent 2 c-130s it would be considered an occupation.

[PacerLJ35]

417. I hope you catch that I'm being sarcastic...

Hugo has no problem criticizing the US military presence but rather than sending in civilian aid workers, he sent in his....(guess!)...military.

[citizen snips]

419. Please post the facts

How many Venezuelan military personnel is currently stationed in Haiti?

[PacerLJ35]

461. I have no idea...

I do know at least one of their 6 C-130s has flown in aid...but the people howling at the US don't realize we've sent in dozens, if not hundreds of aircraft to Haiti, full of aid.

[EFerrari]

470. Where is it? As of yesterday, the only thing that showed up

at the General Hospital were Marines and their weapons.

[PacerLJ35]

477. Yes, you are right...the only thing the US guys are doing is running through Haiti with weapons

No food, water or aid distribution going on with regard to US guys, right?

[EFerrari]

480. As of yesterday at the biggest hospital in Haiti, that is correct. n/t

[PacerLJ35]

487. OK, so at one place in Port au Prince, Marines are sighted with rifles...

Yet all the videos I've seen yet so far show US military personnel in various parts of the city helping search teams, distributing aid, and coordinating the larger logistics effort.

[EFerrari]

495. Great. As of yesterday, they hadn't arrived with AID

to the biggest hospital and hadn't plugged into the largest network of clinics per the director of Partners in Health who runs that network.

So all the videos you've seen so far must be from TODAY.

[PacerLJ35]

497. What about all the photos of helicopters delivering meals...US military search teams...

People being shipped to the Comfort...people being evacuated to the US and surrounding nations for medical care? Airdrops of food and other supplies...

I suppose none of that qualifies as bringing aid to Haiti...and the only thing you want to focus on are a few Marines with unloaded rifles slung over their shoulders.

[Bacchus39]

509. she doesn't watch those programs n/t

s

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

511. Or, if she does, she's more than happy to disregard their content.

[ronnie624]

474. The Venezuelan government has sent far more than a single C-130.

UNITED STATES: $130 million in aid, according to USAID. Has sent more than 11,200 military personnel, 265 government medical personnel, five Navy ships, five Coast Guard cutters and seven cargo planes to assist in aid delivery, support and evacuations. Has delivered more than 90,000 pounds of aid and supplies and is managing operations at the Port-au-Prince airport.

VENEZUELA: 679 tons (616 metric tons) of food and 127 tons (116 metric tons) of equipment, including water purification systems, electrical generators and heavy equipment for moving rubble. 225,000 barrels of diesel fuel and gasoline is on its way, and the Venezuela-led Bolivarian Alternative trade bloc also sent two ships carrying 5,248 tons (4,761 metric tons) of food aid

<http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5h94gvgGGI5jf69gUw5rpqnE67FCg>

Notice how the U.S. food aid is listed in pounds, while the Venezuelan food aid is listed in tons.

Food aid in tons:

Venezuela: 679

USA: 45

Food aid in pounds:

Venezuela: 1,358,000

USA: 90,000

Add to that the 5,248 tons (10,496,000 lbs) sent by the Venezuela-led Bolivarian Alternative trade bloc, and the priorities of each government seem clear.

[PacerLJ35]

478. You want some REAL numbers? Yours are wrong, btw

A single C-17 dropped around 55,000 lbs of rations and water in a single pass. And your numbers state the US effort in it's entirety has only delivered 90,000 lbs?

My friend Eric delivered 16 tons of food on his C-130 yesterday. My other friend Bill has been down there several times and delivered about 15 tons each time, of both food, equipment and water. Those are but two crews. Another guy I know (loadmaster on C-130J) has been down there numerous times, but I can't say for sure how much he delivered. So THREE of dozens of US aircraft flying down there have delivered about as much aid as you contend the entire US effort has delivered.

Don't believe everything you read on the internets.

[ronnie624]

479. They're not my numbers,

They're the AP's.

Your 'sources' are Eric and Bill, lol.

[PacerLJ35]

488. OK, they're not yours, but they are WRONG...my sources are actually THERE

Laugh if you want to, but these guys are actually bringing aid into the country. I would be there myself if I wasn't in the middle of an upgrade training program. BTW, you can find multiple sources online to verify the C-17 drop payload as well.

AP- getting info second or third hand.

Eric B.- C-130 aircraft commander, has flown several flights to Haiti. Hmmm, I'll go with Eric and the other people I know flying in and out of Haiti.

According to the USAF site, US aircraft have delivered 2,250 tons of cargo. Some of this cargo is equipment (generators, lights, loading equipment, etc) and some of it is direct aid.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123186602

Just today, another C-17 dropped 70,000 lbs of food and water...they've been doing about one drop a day now for the past several days, and C-130s may start doing drops too.

[Bacchus39]

510. they are his numbers. he interpreted them that way, and lets not forget who is delivering the aid

helicopters, transport planes, drops and now that the US has fixed a pier huge amounts of aid from ships can pour in.

the google site didn't mention what type of aid was brought in by the US so I expect it didn't include food. also, the doctors and other types of aid but ronnie only focused on food. what about the US doctors, and that is just the government doctors reported. not to mention another necessary element of existence, water. so yes, given the totality we will certainly see where the priorities are.

[ronnie624]

515. You may rest assured

that if the U.S. had sent a significant amount of food and water, the Associated Press would not hesitate to list it.

You are always free to post your own "numbers" and "interpret" them any way you wish.

[PacerLJ35]

516. Look at the freakin' photos...60,000 lbs+ of food/aid in each airdrop

That's not even counting all the food/water and other equipment brought in to the airport. The US has brought in nearly 3,000 tons of aid so far.

[ronnie624]

519. Which photos are you referring to? Can you post a link to them? n/t

[PacerLJ35]

520. Video and photos of airdrop ops in Haiti...a MUST LOOK for anyone reading this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4VO_E-4P_s

Note...each one of those standard CDS bundles weighs around 1,700 lbs...and the C-17s have been dropping about 40 per pass. They've been doing this since January 18th. It took that long to find and secure a drop zone to avoid killing people on the ground and/or destabilizing buildings further by having a heavy CDS bundle land on it.

Video from Reuters on Jan. 19th airdrop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCf2G1HbGT0

Note that video states the US originally said no airdrops but reversed course. Friend of mine that works for AMC (Air Mobility Command) stated that airdrops were always considered but they weren't going to drop unless a drop zone was secured to avoid what has happened in the past...hungry people rushing the drop zone to get to the food first, and getting crushed by the bundles.

Photos of the Jan 23 airdrop:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/4298748027/in/set-72157623087518481/

Jan 21 airdrop:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/4296418497/in/set-72157623087518481/

Jan 23 C-130 2-ship formation airdrop being loaded:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/4298731547/in/set-72157623087518481/

Jan 23 C-130 2-ship formation airdrop being loaded...NOTE: I used to fly these airplanes...they are C-130H1s out of Dyess AFB, and I personally know some of the crews flying these missions:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/4298733521/in/set-72157623087518481/

Cargo yard at Homestead ARB in Florida...note the caption, which said the facility has loaded and shipped over 900,000 TONS of aid to Haiti...and that's just from Homestead (the above C-130/C-17 photos were loaded at Pope AFB in NC)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/4299489476/in/set-72157623087518481/

This is a picture of a JASDF (Japan Air Self-Defense Force) C-130H being loaded up for a flight into Haiti. Yes, appears we are elbowing other countries out (sarcasm):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/4299485998/in/set-72157623087518481/

US infantry troops loading a truck to take supplies downtown...oh, wait, I thought these guys were just running amok through downtown Port au Prince?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/4296206119/in/set-72157623087518481/

Food being loaded onto an MC-130H on early morning of Jan 14th...I thought only troops with guns were shipped in at the beginning?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/4276049441/in/set-72157623087518481/

[ronnie624]

521. From your second video:

"Just days after U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said airdrops of food and water into Haiti would pose serious problems with crowd control, the U.S. military changed course, and carried out the first airdrops of humanitarian supplies, since the deadly earthquake there, a week ago."

From my posted messages:

- "The Venezuelan government has sent far more than a single C-130."

- "It isn't Venezuela that is being criticized by other governments as well as organizations like Doctors Without Borders for prioritizing military logistics."

- "According to many, the distribution of food and water should have been the primary consideration. Venezuela clearly had that in mind as they, along with the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, immediately dispatched more than 12 million lbs of emergency food aid."

- "The U.S. government's response, on the other hand, was to immediately insert more than 11,000 marines and military equipment, with very little food aid."

At no point have I made false claims. You cannot truthfully say the same.

[PacerLJ35]

522. Context, my friend

It is very true that the first humanitarian fixed-wing AIRDROP occurred on Jan 18th. That I did not deny and in fact even stated so. You are missing the fact that the US delivered aid via the airport and via helicopter from day one.

Airdrops. They were talking about AIRDROPS. Not the delivery and distribution of aid in general. There's a difference.

Look at that last photo...it was taken on the 14... and it's an MC-130 loaded up with food (MREs) for the Haitian people.

Stop being obtuse and start actually reading my posts...then engage your brain. It helps actually put the stuff in context if you think, versus just viewing the pictures for a split second so you can find something, anything, to point out and complain about.

[ronnie624]

523. There are no reports of U.S. food deliveries to the Haitian people "from day one".

In fact, there are many reports to the opposite. The narrative to the video you posted, says there were no airdrops of food for the Haitians for a full week after the earthquake. A picture of MREs says nothing about their destination. The caption says, "for transport to Haiti in support of humanitarian operations". It is far more likely the initial MRE shipments were to feed the U.S. military personnel, who were being deployed at the same time.

Your initial claim was, "Hugo sent a single C-130 in", attempting to mis characterize the amount of aid sent by the Venezuelan government. I posted a link showing it to be false. Your messages are also laden with unverifiable claims, citing sources like, "Eric" and "Bill". When shown how ridiculous that is, you then move on to mis characterize my words.

You have much to learn. Military propaganda is not a reliable source of information.

The primary concern for U.S. political and corporate elites with regard to Haiti, is to maintain unilateral political control over the country. This view is supported by 200 years of well documented history. Acknowledging it is not an attack against the military, but instead a criticism of an imperialist foreign policy that values profit over the well being of people in "third world" countries.

[PacerLJ35]

525. "Military propaganda"...these people are the same people I work with...doing the same job I do

Fine, go hide in your idiotic cave where the US is always looking to invade every single nation on the face of the Earth. Go hide out there, and keep telling yourself that the military is only interested in asserting control and could give two shits about people starving or dying in Haiti.

People like me have been there, done that...know many others that are there, and are doing it now. Yet you'll still parrot your second-hand stories and place them as far out of context as can be believable. Perhaps those on this message board that also have their heads firmly planted up their anus might buy your theories, but most of us who have a brain and know people in the military know otherwise.

"Bill" and "Eric" aren't theoretical characters in some school play, they are real people...I only withhold their real names to keep morons who lurk on these boards from doing something stupid. These are real freakin' people, along with me...I work in a squadron and a wing full of PEOPLE that have flown to Haiti since this all started. That's where I get my views from. You get yours from searching google and trying to find any and every article that supports your point of view while ignoring or discounting those that discount it.

Good luck, but I'm pretty sure you have absolutely no clue. Sorry if this pisses you off but honestly I'm sick of people that sit behind their keyboard with really no real experience to go on other than reading outdated AP reports or articles from biased news sources to "inform" them. I'm just calling it like I see it.

In three weeks I'll be done with my upgrade program, and if I get to fly to Haiti I'll take photos. Maybe you can be one of the several that will likely come out of the woodwork to attack my very real experiences with second-hand internet news. Good luck with that. Folks like you embarrass real liberals who actually try to DO something, rather than sit on the sidelines and snipe.

[Regret My New Name]

524. Dropping heavy crates and crushing people is a good way to help...

I kids.

I kids.

[ronnie624]

526. The Food Aid Lands

<http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/afghanaid/index.html>

[PacerLJ35]

527. That's not how they are dropping the aid in Haiti...they are using CDS

[ronnie624]

528. So? What's your point?

That it would be impossible to distribute such packets in Haiti?

That other poster implied that the only way to ship and distribute food aid to Haiti is in heavy crates.

[PacerLJ35]

529. Afghanistan vs Haiti...apples and oranges

In Afghanistan, there wasn't any equipment to distribute and move large amounts of aid, so the TRIADS drops were done to at least get some food on the ground...plus, there's no shortage of large swaths of land to do such a drop.

In Haiti, there's lots of roads...there are lots of aid workers there with the equipment to retrieve, move and distribute the aid. Having flown airdrops for many years now, it's far more efficient to drop food in CDS bundles versus the TRIADS system...CDS = lots of food in a very concentrated area. TRIADS = some food spread out all over the place.

In short, there's no reason to use the TRIADS drop. They have been doing at least one (and these days more) CDS drops a day.

BTW, a CDS bundle isn't a "crate". And they are heavy (up to 2,200 lbs per bundle for standard CDS).

[ronnie624]

532. I see.

In your opinion, there was no need to use the TRIADS drop.

Thank you for your opinion.

[winninghand]

402. How can total idiot like Chavez be elected president...?

Oh, I almost forgot. What was that guy's name? You know--the one who used to be president before Obama.

:smoke:

[PacerLJ35]

404. He tells people what they want to hear...

Much like our previous president...oh wait, he didn't even bother to do that.

[EFerrari]

469. Everyone that knows anything about Haiti is now saying just about the same thing.

Chavez is anything but an idiot. In fact, this is a great illustration of how ahead of the curve he usually is. And comparing him to Bush, who destroyed Haiti's democracy, is an overflowing crock.

[PacerLJ35]

489. You really aren't any better than all those people who thought Bush could do no wrong

Hugo is a politician. Had Bush done the things Hugo has done or is attempting to do in VZ, you'd be hopping mad right now. The difference is one guy is a right-winger, the other claims to be a socialist. Just because someone tags themselves with the socialist title and try to tell people what they want to hear doesn't mean they aren't capable of usurping power.

[ronnie624]

502. Comparing President Chavez to George W. Bush is completely inaccurate.

The current Venezuelan government has never committed crimes against other countries. Neither has Chavez ever usurped power. Invoking a non-existent crime, as a reason for opposition, is completely illogical.

Above all other things, the Chavez supporters on this board have advocated for the freedom of political and economic self determination for the Venezuelan people. The Venezuelan majority's wishes are expressed through a highly transparent election process, and they have elected Hugo Chavez as their president. That must be respected if democracy is truly worth defending.

Those of us who believe in the principles of democracy, would argue as strenuously for any other country, as long as its government is not committing crimes against other countries.

[PacerLJ35]

504. I wasn't comparing the two...I was comparing the idea of putting someone on a pedestal

ie, not allowing any criticism, even if it's constructive. Chavistas time and again rally around Chavez, no matter what he's said or done, and defended things that are marginally "democratic". It's as if Chavez can do no wrong.

I know Chavez and Bush aren't the same people. But the supporters of both seem unable to stop glorifying either one. Bush supporters think he's the best thing out there, despite serious flaws. I honestly could care less about Chavez, so long as he sits in his country and leaves us alone. But it's irritating to see so many people on this board defend and explain away things that Chavez has done, that had a US president done, they would be screaming in the streets.

That was my point.

[bemildred]

490. Damn, I think this is going to hit 500 posts. nt

[PacerLJ35]

494. Photos of a different perspective

Pictures of the invading horde of USAF personnel...so evil looking.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/usairforce/sets/72157623087518481/

[bemildred]

496. Only three more ... nt

[PacerLJ35]

500. Number 500!

Gee, I feel special...ok, back to the debate at hand...

[joshcryer]

506. Haha, you were watching the thread for that one, eh?

[junior college]

501. I wouldn't put it past the US to do such a stupid thing

They....we or what ever you call it are capable of the most ridiculous behavior. Almost funny if it weren't so sad.

[Vehl]

503. This guy needs a tin foil hat!.nt

[joshcryer]

505. I saw a Haitian on TV saying he wished the US would take over. Broke my heart.

When you see Haitians scalping fresh drinking water and acting as if it's no big deal, you start to weep for these people.

[northzax]

513. No problem, Hugo

We're out. Your aircraft carrier can provide clean water. Your hospital ship can treat the wounded, your helicopters can fly aid and workers around. And your soldiers can keep the peace. And your billions can pay for it all. Oh, and don't forget to rebuild and expand the airport and ports while you're at it. You're gonna take care of that? Sweet. You have the con. Get to it, champ.

Anyone really think that will work? If Chavez wants to send soldiers to patrol Port au Prince, I suggest he do so. If anyone knows of an organization with the capacity to even come close to handling what the US Armed Forces are doing, please let us know. Otherwise shut up, write a check and let's have this conversation next month when the situation has started to stabilize.

[ronnie624]

514. Pardon me for being skeptical

of all the wonderful things the U.S. government intends to do for Haiti. The proof of behavior is in what one has done in the past, and an examination of history bodes ominously for the Haitian people.

It isn't Venezuela that is being criticized by other governments as well as organizations like Doctors Without Borders for prioritizing military logistics. According to many, the distribution of food and water should have been the primary consideration. Venezuela clearly had that in mind as they, along with the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, immediately dispatched more than 12 million lbs of emergency food aid. In addition to that, the Venezuelan government sent 127 tons of equipment including water purification systems, electrical generators, and hundreds of thousands of barrels of fuel.

The U.S. government's response, on the other hand, was to immediately insert more than 11,000 marines and military equipment, with very little food aid.

And yes, security is important. But distributing food and water and providing security can be done simultaneously. In fact, the former would most assuredly make the latter much easier, as hungry people are more prone to violence than those whose basic needs are being met.

[PacerLJ35]

517. "US government's response...very little food aid" -That's also very inaccurate

The United States Air Force alone has delivered 2,250 tons of aid (food, water and supplies...like generators, etc) as of the 22nd of January. This amount does not include the aid delivered via US Navy ships.

Since January 18th, the USAF has been performing airdrops of food rations and water on a drop zone, with each pass delivering around 60,000 lbs of CDS bundles full of food/water. Yet you continue to stick with this insane notion that the US's entire effort has only delivered 90,000 lbs of aid. Perhaps that AP number was on the FIRST day. You never did provide a context. There's no way that the US's contribution stopped at 90,000 lbs...it has well exceeded this number. I have friends flying missions down there as I type this to confirm it.

On another note...I should be done with my upgrade training in 3 weeks. If the airlift mission is still ongoing, there's a good chance I will be flying more stuff down there. If I get to Haiti, I'll take plenty of photos myself.

[Socal31]

518. And if Obama decided not to help,

Hugego would have complained and said that we didnt take care of our poor hemispherical neighbors, etc etc. And the same Chavez-defense force that is in every Venezuela thread would be agreeing with him. I am starting to think more and more that Bush was just a convenient excuse for some people to hate the US. Most people share the hatred for Bush, but not the US as a whole. Even though we have a Democrat in charge, that we all helped to elect, I am still seeing the same gibberish about the US just wanting to invade people.

Obama is sending in our already stretched military, with money that we dont have, to help people. Why? Because it is the right thing to do. If you want to be seen on the same fringe as the Troll on this one, go for it.

[rd_kent]

530. Does anyone really care what Hugo has to say?