First responders frustrated at orders to abandon Haiti mission

[IndianaGreen]

Source: WTHR-TV

First responders frustrated at orders to abandon Haiti mission

Updated: Jan 18, 2010 12:08 PM EST

Port-au-Prince - Urban search and rescue teams called up to help find victims in Haiti are being decommissioned and told to go home. That includes a member of Indiana's Task Force One.

Bill Brown is very angry and upset with the US government. Brown, an Indianapolis Fire Department Battalion Chief and commander of Indiana Task Force One, has been waiting at Homestead Air Force base in Florida since Friday. He and other members of a special advance command response unit were supposed to fly in to Haiti, but he says they have been hampered by bureaucratic red tape.

Four other urban search and rescue teams, including one from Ohio, have been told to pack up and go home. The Ohio task force had more than 60 tons of gear loaded on to a C-5 transport plane and 80 members were prepared to get on another aircraft when they were told their services were not needed.

Brown says his contacts from the six US search teams in Haiti say they badly need help. While FEMA has made the teams available, it seems USAID, which is heading the American humanitarian effort in Haiti, says those teams of first responders are not needed.

"It's just unbelievable. Words can't even describe the level of frustration," said Brown. "As firefighters we're trained - we never leave a fire until the fire's put out or the last person could possibly be saved," he said, adding that the "fire" was still burning.

Five people were pulled alive from a supermarket in Port-au-Prince just Sunday, five days after the quake. US teams have pulled a total of 30 live victims from the rubble.

The reason given for decommissioning the teams is that there are not enough resources on the ground in Haiti to sustain them. But according to Chief Brown, the teams are self-sufficient and travel with food, water, generators, fuel and vehicles and don't need outside assistance.


Read more: http://www.wthr.com/global/story.asp?s=11839584

---

:wtf:

[Wilms]

1. USAID? Now things are coming into focus. n/t

[EFerrari]

4. Yep. Maybe they should have been told those teams are needed

to destabilize Haiti. They'd send them in soon enough.

[carla]

21. Yes.

So Chavez's claims are not so coo-coo sounding anymore? Does this mean that Naomi Klein is sounding a just alarm? Is this an indication that disaster capitalism and the shock doctrine are factual?
Is it conceivable that the USGov is trying to assimilate Haiti?

We live in very strange times indeed.

[EFerrari]

33. I'd love to hear what John Perkins thinks about all of this right about now.

[KT2000]

41. That is who I thought of too

hope he gets on the tv and explains what is up for all to hear.

[EFerrari]

43. I had the audacity to contact his people and asked for an interview.

Because his viewpoint would be so interesting.

Let's see how we do. :)

[CreekDog]

82. yeah, just jump to that conclusion

it's so much easier when you don't need much evidence. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

87. 203 year history of political manipulation isn't going to change

because of a little earthquake.

[CreekDog]

89. I'll write Obama and my congresspeople and have them get us 100% out of there

clearly we are trying to harm things.

no money, no assistance, no military, no logistical support...nothing.

because all we are doing is meddling.

because even if Obama was different than everybody else what he is doing is sending "people", "money" and "things" and smart people like you know that those things are always used for the same bad purposes. it is a physical impossibility for him and our government to do otherwise --so why bother.

:shrug:


:sarcasm:

i hate what you say because if we help, there's no way to avoid your criticism, even if the people involved are trying to do the right thing. you just chalk it up to a form of meddling and attribute the same motives.

so why should anybody try to do better? you're just going to call whatever they do what you want to call it. why bother?

[EFerrari]

94. The challenge is to take in the whole picture

not just the feel good parts. And you did accuse the poster of leaping to a conclusion as if it was much of a jump at all.

The question of "why bother" could be answered by saying, this humanitarian crisis is also a political crisis and if the United States wants to retain its influence over Haiti, they have to go in and take charge of the situation. But I imagine you'd hate that, too.

Yesterday, the former Hatian defense minister remarked that so many soldiers and weapons were not needed in Haiti because they had had an earthquake, not a war. I don't know how this will turn out but the past is the best predictor of the future, unfortunately. It's not like I'm hoping this is a mess or that Obama fails somehow or that I hate America.

[CreekDog]

81. what if there isn't enough resources and infrastructure to shelter, hydrate and feed the survivors?

survivors never in the ruins?

they literally don't seem to have the infrastructure to keep those who came through unscathed alive.

what bout them?

[Wilms]

83. Keep stretching.

Or provide a link asserting that there's a formal or even informal protocol to that effect.

Your hypotheticals aren't what I'm here to discuss.

(Sorry if I disappointed you.)

[CreekDog]

85. you made an outlandish claim and i argued against it

with plain old logic.

i don't need to prove that it's nearly impossible to care for 2 million people under the circumstances. it's patently obvious.

what you need to prove is that there is some conspiracy that the USA is leading to not look for people in collapsed buildings when they are simply trying to keep the people that are outside alive.

[Wilms]

86. Pardon? What "outlandish claim" did you imagine I made?

Nor did I ask for you two prove anything about "care for 2 million people under the circumstances".

I asked you to provide some reference to correlate the difficulty in caring for those never trapped with curtailing rescue efforts for those trapped.

[piedmont]

120. There have only been 72 trapped people rescued so far by over 30 teams.

That's around 2 per team, and some of them subsequently died. Each plane-load of search and rescue bumps a plane-load of food, medical equipment or other supplies out of a slot at the airport. It sucks, I know-- but it looks like in this situation search-and-rescue does not save that many lives compared to other supplies, personnel, etc.

[Wilms]

121. That doesn't make my point outlandish or even incorrect. n/t

In fact, the slot bump illustrates the amount of disruption caused by delivering a rescue team.

[piedmont]

122. I wasn't answering your question. I don't think you've made any claims,

outlandish or otherwise.

[Wilms]

123. And I certainly wasn't assuming that hard, calibrated, and difficult decisions aren't being made.

But the poster posited pulling more people from the rubble would serve only to further overwhelm services and be a good reason to leave rescuers out.

[piedmont]

124. I can't speak for CreekDog, but that's not how I interpreted that post.

In post 81, it seems to me that he/she is talking about the survivors who were never in the rubble desperately needing supplies that would be diverted if more search-and-rescue were brought in. Maybe I missed something.

[Ignis]

126. Bingo. Can't let this "opportunity" pass them by. (nt)

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. I echo your confusion.

[Ken Burch]

3. Is it because there are no BANKERS in the rubble?

n/t.

[Earth_First]

7. The bankers, insurance industry, et al

are all being taken care of by private, high-priced extraction teams.

[lapfog_1]

5. We've elected to do the military style response...

and the one thing that they are not "self sufficient" in is security.

There is probably fear somewhere in the chain of command that these search and rescue teams would become targets of some sort.

[IndianaGreen]

8. The US military is not in charge in Haiti. USAID bureaucrats are!

This is a point made by a 3-star general on the ground in Port au Prince. Our military is very efficient in helping people in case of natural disaster, but tying their hands by the bureaucrats is not a wise move.

Bill Clinton is on site. I hope he kicks butt!

[EFerrari]

9. He better. If USAID is leading, this is Hillary's show.

[bdamomma]

19. I hope Bill does something, there is definitely logistical problems

of getting aid to those who need it. Didn't we see the same thing in New Orleans after Katrina people crying for help after 5 days needing food and water, it is only human and it shouldn't be called looting it is called survival.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Actually the Haitians are...its their country and the government is in place

[IndianaGreen]

26. President Préval is AWOL, and his government is nowhere to be found

The elites seemed to have come out okay out of this mess.

[IndianaGreen]

36. Haiti’s absent leader ‘doesn’t like to talk at all’

It was the US which engineered the kidnapping of President Aristide.

Haiti’s absent leader ‘doesn’t like to talk at all’

Survivors feel abandoned as diffident president fails to address nation

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti - As foreign aid and troops flow into this ruined capital, a Haitian government led by a diffident president has been overwhelmed, making it largely invisible since the earthquake throttled the country six days ago.

An aloof politician who was educated abroad, President René Préval has spoken far more to foreign audiences through satellite television than to his own people. Over consecutive days this weekend, Préval, 67, met with Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon. But he has yet to visit the vast refugee camp that has risen in the city center alongside the crumbled National Palace, where he once lived.

The U.S. government views Préval, an agronomist by training, as a technocrat largely free of the sharp political ideologies that have divided Haiti for decades. But at a time when tragedy is forcing the country essentially to begin again, Préval's aversion to the public stage has left millions of Haitians wondering whether there is a government at all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34917528/ns/world_news-washington_post/

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. Apparently some mid level are in place and trying to do things

The government is not just the figurehead, be it Bush or Préval

[Wilms]

45. Linkless as usual. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. Here are a couple

The Haitians are mentioned in many write ups, I assumed others had seen them.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60H3ZJ20100118
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7494389#7495680

[Wilms]

55. Perhaps you'll share the relevant snips.

Largely I see US people talking. I can point to articles saying Preval is AWOL, though it doesn't in itself accuse the U.S. of anything.

The French, among others, do.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4230787&mesg_id=4230787


I have it easy. My agenda is facts and truth. You ought to try it sometime. It's real Progressive.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

59. There are very few Haitians talking to the media

and I am not sure the M$M cares. Death and misery attract more eyeballs that pols of any stripe or nation.

Given the lack of primary sources, you go with what is out there and passes the smell test. That a French minister does not understand the situation on the ground and what kind of personnel have been sent does not bother me in the least. That some are bitching about not being able to fly in on their timetable is not surprising, The NOTAM is clear. Prior clearance required with a fixed time slot and lots of fuel. Should not surprise anyone. Same kind of thing will be in place when the port opens.

As to your snark: I check on facts and question what some call the truth when I post here. Though it disturbs some, it is indeed the progressive thing to do. Try it some time.

[Wilms]

60. Well the Times Online had something to say.

Doesn't that come in on your internets?

Haiti has a leader in charge, but not in control
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6993152.ece

Next.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. I expect that of pols...my point was that at least some mid level Haitian government

employees are on the job. Police, ATC, at the port and others. They are the ones who IMO really define the government, not the titular head of state. Not just in Haiti, but everywhere.

The macro leadership, there or elsewhere is less important than getting the right people there to do the best they can in emergencies. So far it seems to be doing better than any of us should have hoped.

[Wilms]

64. Blahyammerblah

DLC

[louis-t]

25. Notice Herr bush is not with him?

I'm glad. I would barf if I had to look at him with his blue shirt with the sleeves rolled up again.

[CLANG]

34. USAID is a cover for the CIA

I happen to know this for a fact but would endanger a family member if I said any more.

[WriteDown]

57. You're already in danger! RUN! Burn your credit cards and cellphone! nt

[Wilms]

61. Pro-empire Dem?

[WriteDown]

65. Tinfoil hat Dem or Chavez acolyte Dem? nt

[Wilms]

66. More informed by history than by your reference-free utterances.

Not any more complicated than that, DLCer.

[WriteDown]

69. History which you can't seem to produce. Secret history! nt

[Wilms]

71. Stop crying.

[WriteDown]

72. Trying to console yourself?

I apologize if I upset you.

[CLANG]

79. Nah, I work for USAID too!

[lonestarnot]

The new chief was appointed 1/14/2010 Rajiv Shah.

"Shah has worked with former President Bill Clinton's charitable foundation on international aid efforts over the past decade, and he said Shah is up to the task of leading the recovery in Haiti."

and whoa boy

"attended the London School of Economics,
earned an M.D. at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine
and a master's degree in health economics from Penn's Wharton School of Business."

http://www.nj.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/international-22/1263505141311390.xml&storylist=international&thispage=2

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. Not in charge, but they are getting it done

Yes someone needs to make the high level decisions, but the US military are the bubbas running the airfield and getting food and water out to the distribution centers. They are working to repair the port, which is the key piece to rebuilding. Those kind of things.

I hope/assume other nations are participating in those areas, but the M$M hasn't said. I could also argue that since the US is the nearest nation with that kind of capability, that the other nations should leave that to them and supply other things.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

54. Sort of...

The first responders from the US was the ready battalion. That is to be expected. The bulk of the rest have been logistics, transportation, etc. The Combat Engineers and Sea Bees fix roads, build/repair harbors. Its not like they sent the 1st Armored Division. They were what the situation called for.

[Democrat_in_Houston]

6. And

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6821324.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+houstonchronicle%2Flocal-state+%28chron.com+-+Local+%26+State%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo

Search and Rescue teams that never made it and are unwanted because they have "enough."

HUH?

I understand that this earthquake has created a logistical nightmare, but it's ridiculous to say they aren't "needed."

[tbyg52]

10. Hey, Democrat_in_Houston!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Democrat_in_Houston]

22. Thanks!

[JPZenger]

11. NYTimes: NY Rescue Teams couldn't land for 2 days, equipment sent to Dominican Republic

On Sat. the NY Times had a good article about the NYC urban search and rescue team. They were ready to go quickly, but couldn't get permission to land in Haiti for 2 days. Then, once they landed and were ready to go, they found out the plane with most of their equipment had been sent to the Dominican Republic. The NYC team borrowed equipment from another team for a few hours, but then that team needed it back.

For the first couple weeks after Katrina hit, FEMA had a big bold headline on their own homepage that said "FEMA Tells First Responders to Not Respond."

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Switiching gears to RECOVERY PHASE

that is what is going on

[IndianaGreen]

13. They just pulled 5 people alive out of the Caribbean Market

and there are towns closer to the epicenter that have yet to get any assistance.

This is a reckless rush to bulldoze the rubble regardless of whether there are victims still alive!

Town at epicenter of quake stays in isolation

Carrefour, the town at the epicenter of the earthquake in Haiti, has seen little aid.

BY LUIS FELIPE LOPEZ

CARREFOUR, Haiti -- Nobody here has seen elements of the United Nations mission, with their unmistakable blue helmets. Nor the vehicles that distribute water or the mobile kitchens sent by the Dominican Republic.

This town, which was the epicenter of the earthquake, is living in the epicenter of oblivion.

On Saturday, a first contingent of Dominican firefighters managed to reach Carrefour, an enormous hillside town about 10 miles south of Port-au-Prince, home to more than 400,000 people.

``We're looking for the possibility to rescue some survivors in the rubble, but unfortunately can't find anyone,'' a member of the Dominican crew -- who asked not to be identified -- told El Nuevo Herald.

``We have decided to return to Port-au-Prince because the people here are desperate and, under such conditions, our work becomes much too dangerous,'' he added.

The streets and alleys of Carrefour -- known by the Haitians as Kafou -- are empty. Getting here is extremely complicated because most the buildings collapsed and the rubble blocks access to the town.

In the absence of police, residents have barricaded the roads with cadavers and burning tires in an effort to prevent looting.

But many others refuse to abandon their rickety homes, hoping that someone will arrive to rescue them and the bodies of their relatives.

``We need the government, the United Nations, the firefighters, someone to come. Now. We cannot wait any longer,'' said Beatrice Raimond, 32.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/haiti/story/1431239.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Those teams will remain in place until they are done

and have no hope.

The supermarket, if I am going to be trapped. a supermarket is ideal. If I am on a food aile there is food, if I get into a water one, there is water.

That is why their window is larger.

Trust me, making that call is a difficult one to make, but all disasters do switch from Search and Rescue to recovery... and it is about day six-seven... that is what you're seeing

[FedUpWithIt All]

17. That is exactly how it would appear.

An infant was also found today. She was in good health. How fortunate she is that she was found before the move to the "recovery phase". :eyes:

Standard methods (including politics and red tape) under these extraordinary circumstances are proving tragic.

[Thothmes]

76. Think you are correct. We all wish that more survivors could

be recovered from the rubble of that shattered city. But, reality is that in one or maybe two more day there may be no more survivors to recover from the destruction. The sad truth is that the "first responder" mission is drawing to a close. The sights now need to be set for the medical care, feeding and housing of 100,000s of thousands of survivors of this disaster. Not nearly as newsworthy as rescuing an infant from a demolished supermarket, but absolutely necessary for the poor suffering Haitians.

[Common Sense Party]

14. Heckuva job, USAID.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

15. WTF!? This is insane! I'm gushing tears as I read this...

These teams are self-sufficient. Who is mandating these repulsive actions? Please kick and rec AND CALL your representatives.

[IndianaGreen]

20. I just contacted mine!

Bureaucrats have to step aside and let the first responders do their job!

[elocs]

18. Yes, evidently the Bush & Brownie bureaucratic bungling is still with us.

Seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. Actually it looks like its going about a well as anyone could have expected

[bdamomma]

23. kick and rec

[winyanstaz]

27. Who the hell is running this rescue effort?

Please...not another Katrina!!!

[IndianaGreen]

28. Not the Pentagon!

The bureaucrats of USAID are running the show.

Whatever one may think of the war, our military is top notched when it comes to rapid response to natural disaster.

Remember how quickly the Coast Guard responded to Katrina while the FEMA bureaucrats had their heads up their asses (Yeah, I know USCG is under Transportation Dept in peace time).

[winyanstaz]

38. You know..you are right......

I need to realize that the troops are only following orders and they cant be there if no one gives the orders.

[madville]

39. USCG is under DHS during peace time now

They became part of DHS around 2002-2003, whenever DHS came about.

[leftinportland]

29. Just spoke to USAID emergency task force in DC

I can not believe I actually got through. I first called the State Dept. and was transferred. I spoke to a woman who asked about the article - read it while I waited on the phone and was as shocked and disturbed as we all are. She took my contact information and will let me know what is found out. She said there was still active search and rescue teams still in the field but that a lot of erroneous reporting has been happening. Will post reply/update if I get one.

BTW - even though I have a low post count I am not that new to DU - took me years to finally get around to signing up and don't post much. (just wanted to say that so not to appear to be blowing smoke)

[IndianaGreen]

30. Great report, leftinportland

Keep us posted. I am waiting for a return call from my local office for my Representative. I contacted my two useless Senators as well.

[uppityperson]

31. "a lot of erroneous reporting has been happening" indeed. It is difficult to tell what is really

happening, what reports are false, what are rumors, etc. Thank you for calling them and for posting, please let us know what happens.

[IndianaGreen]

32. It can also be that the decision makers in Washington don't know what is going on

This I know, our people with Indiana Task Force One are very reliable, and they are actually quoted in OP:

Bill Brown is very angry and upset with the US government. Brown, an Indianapolis Fire Department Battalion Chief and commander of Indiana Task Force One, has been waiting at Homestead Air Force base in Florida since Friday. He and other members of a special advance command response unit were supposed to fly in to Haiti, but he says they have been hampered by bureaucratic red tape.

[leftinportland]

35. You may be right...

I can honestly say at least one person in DC now knows.

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. This is the sort of thing that makes you mad as a cut snake. Why do we

always expect common sense and efficiency of charities? The opposite could and is expected of wars ('War is the unfolding of miscalculations' - Barbara Tuchman). But charities are surely about love, not hate and violence.

Where's the communication. Surely, the matter could have been resolved by a phone call. But, evidently, not, though they were surely made.

[earth mom]

40. Betcha a bunch of arguing is going on behind the scenes on who gets to profit from Haiti.

:grr:

[Waiting For Everyman]

42. I'm not surprised. The head of USAID is a drive-up. Our DU "experts" think that's ok.

It's Rajiv Shah. His so-called "background":

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x510728

What erupted on here when I dared to object to that:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7481389

To hear the "experts" of DU tell it, this 36 yr. old mistake is more capable than Gen. Honore:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7496918

Yeah, right! Appointing Shah to head USAID was arrogant, in my book, and the beginning of a foreseeable clusterfuck which is unfortunately coming to pass.

[IndianaGreen]

44. So Rajiv Shah was a major donor to Hillary's campaign, like Bush's Brownie

What a dip!

Political hacks should never be given critical posts.

[Wilms]

46. I had no idea. Thanks WFE.

I didn't think it would be this blatant. I'm not cynical enough. The blind-eye HRC supporters lend perhaps emboldens her.

[IndianaGreen]

50. Anyone knows if Rajiv Shah is in Haiti?

Hillary just went to Haiti. Was Rajiv Shah there to meet her? Was Rajiv Shah part of Hillary's party?

Where in the FRAK is Rajiv Shah?

[Waiting For Everyman]

91. Shah went along WITH her to Haiti, IG.

And I saw an interview with Bill Clinton that same day, in which BC remarked on what a good job Shah was doing.

Yup, I had to curse at my tv on that one. :banghead:

[IndianaGreen]

100. Oy!

Never put a novice in charge of disaster management and relief. Shah is our Brownie!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

63. That could be said of any political appointees and any pol

The people who get the work done are the pros who serve in those departments. They are often the deputies of the pols and those that really get the job done. Seen it many times personally.

Whether Shah is the figurehead or not is not really that important. Yes he could CF the situation later, but for now, in many ways he is a bystander due to the circumstances.

[Wilms]

68. That's why Brownie is universally admired here.

Especially by all the Banana Republicans.

[earcandle]

47. Our government is dysfunctional now. The miraculous feats we used to accomplish and still can are

defeated by the bureaucracy seems like every time.  Why are we
being so dumbed down and held back?  

We are NOT a third world country but our government sure is
trying to give the impression that we don't have it together,
therefore we are suffering as if. 

I am not an enemy of government, but I think our managers need
to be replaced from the top down, all of them.

Give me a job in government,and I will kick ass. 

I bet there are quite a few of us that would like to do it
ourselves instead rely on these asshats.

[galileoreloaded]

48. They are the "experts" and "process improvement" managers that cause much of this.

As a human you have instincts, but these complex systems actively attempt to get you to ignore them.

A subset of military, compartmentalized thinking, really.

[earcandle]

49. lets all be robotic and forget we have brains~ YUK... have a song instead!

Happy Fun Ball

[C_Lawyer09]

51. Simply Put

This is what happens when missions are executed in places that are failing states with failing governments and lack of infrastructure. USAID, has a vast history of bungled bureacracy. Look at Africa. Geography plays a big role, there is only so much room. Don't visualize the US, actually break out a map and look at Haiti. If there is any doubt as to why there are problems, go to worldworld.com and check out Haiti. There is a reason two UN missions have been failures. Lastly, remember there is no "training" for disasters, there is only notes from how the last disasters were handled. I think our response to this one was and is pretty damn good.

[leftinportland]

67. Got a call back from USAID in DC

See post #29
The woman I spoke to earlier at the USAID Haiti Emergency Task Force in DC called me back a few moments ago. Said the following: The team from Indiana was not in Haiti - they had not yet left the U.S. There are currently 27 search and rescue teams of various sizes operating in Haiti, six of these teams are from the U.S. The reason the Indiana team, and apparently an Ohio team as well have been told to stand down is because priority is now being given to other disaster relief efforts - food, water, and medical aid. She added that searches are still being conducted and people are still being rescued. Also, the USAID website has regular updates on the progress of rescue efforts.

This is a very sad and frustrating situation. I suppose if Haiti had more infrastructure intact or a second airport more could be done. We need to remember there a millions of survivors and many injured. The scale of the relief efforts is staggering.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Indiana team has been at Homestead Air Force base in Florida since Friday!

And Port au Prince is not the only city destroyed by the earthquake.

Where is USAID's head Rajiv Shah? Is he in Haiti? If not, did he accompany Hillary when she went to Haiti?

Is Rajiv Shah, who has zero experience in disaster management, the new Brownie?

Thank you for your update, leftinportland.

Being MLK Day, I could only sent e-mails to my Congressperson's office, and my two useless Senators. I do have the e-mail address for a staffer that works in the local office for my Congressperson, and I was hoping to get a phone call after I sent him an e-mail, but I suppose I won't hear anything until tomorrow.

[leftinportland]

73. All I know about Rajiv Shah is

that he is young! Really a kid from my perspective. Being from Indiana you should call USAID too! I called the State Dept. and asked for the USAID Haiti mission and was transfered by the person who answered the phone. I read a few days ago about a renowned Mexican search and rescue team nicknamed the moles I'm wondering if they got through.

Off topic...are you by chance 'Greenie' that used to post on the RRMB and then on the alternate boards after a breakup a few years past?

[IndianaGreen]

74. Hey, Rachel Maddow just discussed this matter

because of the bottle neck in Haiti, several teams have been told to stand down.

[Prometheus Bound]

75. To be fair, the Israeli team are on the ground and they are said to have ceased operations.

Also on Monday, the Israeli rescue team dispatched to search for people trapped in the rubble of the deadly earthquake were said to have ceased their efforts, deeming the chances of finding more survivors after four days very slim.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1143436.html

[leftinportland]

78. This is sad scene.

It is easy to sit here and be an arm-chair analyst. But maybe when their work is done the International search and rescue community can band together do some things to improve their ability to get to the scene of disasters more quickly...like getting the bureaucrats out of the way.

[leftinportland]

77. I'm not surprised...

she's always on top of top of things and often first and sadly sometimes the only one to report certain news.

[CreekDog]

80. I don't think people appreciate how vulnerable the survivors not in the rubble are

if people who were never in the ruins dehyrdrate or succumb because we diverted precious resources trying to comb through wreckage --is that not worse?

[Lurks Often]

90. And we have a winner

Here is a brutal truth for everybody:

The people in charge have to make decisions on who to save, because they can't save everybody. So what do you bring in, a search & rescue team that takes up 2 planes (per the article 60 tons of equipment on 1 plane and 80 people on another plane) and may be able to save 10 or even 100 people or the equivalent amount of food & water which could save 100's or 1000's of people?

Which do you choose? Because you can't choose both.

[CreekDog]

92. Numerous posters here find this hard to believe

but i think the only way they can find it hard to believe is to be purposely ignorant of readily available facts about the situation there (updates from the news, the infrastructure, the logistical difficulties in feeding *anybody* in Haiti, etc.)

[mbperrin]

93. When did the military begin requiring great landing strips for everything?

C130 can land many places; on the beach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uzpDy3n3Vs&feature=related

on dirt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo08wXYv1jM

Seems quite silly to think otherwise. Plus, there is surely no shortage of coastline, as Haiti is as close to the US as I am to Houston out here in west Texas.

[Lurks Often]

95. Some basic C-130 facts

A C-130H requires approximately 3000 feet of mostly flat surface sufficiently firm to support 120,000 pounds of aircraft and payload. You can't land it in soft sand or soft soil, at best the plane ends up stuck, at worst it is damaged.

Then the payload needs to be unloaded, sorted and distributed. Can that be done on an unimproved airstrip, yes it can, but it can be done better on the airfield.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the military is doing it's very best, but the scope of what they are trying to accomplish is enormous and unfortunately takes time.

[mbperrin]

96. Did you not watch the videos of C130s landing on those surfaces without

damage or getting stuck.

My son is active duty USAF and he does not know why there is a problem, either.

[Lurks Often]

97. I believe I addressed that

"3000 feet of mostly flat surface sufficiently firm to support 120,000 pounds of aircraft and payload."

And apparently we're not going to agree, so enjoy the rest of your day.

[mbperrin]

98. So your flat statement is supposed to contradict the actual footage?

You're right, we cannot agree, so please do have a pleasant day.

[PacerLJ35]

103. More facts about the C-130

3,000 foot runway lengths are required for peacetime, and can be waivered. USAF C-130s require a minimum runway of landing ground roll plus 500' (for landing) and at least MFLMETO (Min Field Length for Max Effort Takeoff) for departure. During peacetime, C-130 crews adjust their Vmeto speed (Max Effort Takeoff speed) to equal or exceed the 3-engine minimum air control speed (Vmca3), which often adds a few hundred feet to MFLMETO. I'd imagine in situations like this, however, that could be waived.

A 120,000 lb airplane in normal temps and close to sea level could depart in around 2,500 feet of runway, and land in less than 2,000 feet. The landing ground roll also depends on the type of runway material. It generally cannot land in loose soil or deep, dry sand, since that would have a very low RCR factor and lead to poor braking, unstable ground handling and a host of other issues. The beach landing was done by the UK on a wet section of beach sand that was sufficiently packed. The other dirt landing in Canada was done on packed gravel. Those landing surfaces are fine, but loose sand is probably a no-go.

The other factor is weight. 120,000 lbs is probably not an ideal weight for planning a Haitian relief flight. A basic USAF C-130 weighs around 85,000 lbs empty. To avoid refueling, they'll probably need at least 40,000 lbs in fuel, bringing the weight up to 125,000 lbs without any payload. Maximum weights for any short-bodied C-130 is 155,000 lbs. The stretch C-130Js can go up to 175,000 for takeoff but require a landing weight of 162,286. Recommended weight for max effort landings is 130,000 lbs or less.

Aside from takeoff and landing distance, USAF C-130s require a minimum runway width of at least 60 feet. This is critical since ground minimum control speeds (Vmcg) is dependent on maintaining 30 feet left or right of centerline should an engine fail on takeoff roll. Also, the runway has to be able to support the weight of a 155,000 lb airplane with single tandem main landing gear...regardless of type of surface (concrete, asphalt, dirt, whatever). If it can't support the weight with that type of landing gear, C-130s can't operate there...or they could but at reduced weights...and given the planning weights above, the airplane will still be heavy arriving at MTPP (Port au Prince Intl).

[BrightKnight]

102. Bringing in crane barges to unload ships and open the port

would probably be more useful than building a dirt air strip for very expensive C130's.

You might be able to land a C130 on a rough landing strip to accomplish a mission. I am sure that the DoD insisted on that capability. Running regular flights from a rough dirt strip would run maintenance costs through the roof.

[piedmont]

108. Go to Google maps, search around Haiti, find a STRAIGHT beach 3000 ft long and 150 ft wide...

and report back to us. A road of those dimensions would be ok too, as long as it's also level.

[PacerLJ35]

110. C-130s aren't going to be landing on the beaches...

The video of the UK bird doing that was essentially a capes test.

[piedmont]

112. Yeah, I know-- my point is that if you actually look at Haiti, a site like Saunton does not exist.

I also wonder if the plane in that test was empty or full.

[PacerLJ35]

113. More than likely empty

Typically when aircraft do test work, they do it sans excess fuel and loads, unless the test was specifically concerning weight.

[TexasObserver]

84. Recommend

[autorank]

88. Big mistake, huge k*r

I know a couple of these rescue folks and they don't like to be told how to do their job. Why? Because they're professionals and they know what to do. The point about self sufficiency is an excellent one.

[sabrina 1]

99. It's very bad news that they are there although I'm sure

they've been there all along. Their interests in countries like Haiti are very questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Agency_for_International_Development#Controversies_and_Criticism

It has been said that the USAID has maintained "a close working relationship with the CIA, and Agency officers often operated abroad under USAID cover."<19> The Office of Public Safety, a division of USAID, has been mentioned as an example of this, having served as a front for training foreign police in counterinsurgency methods.

Their job according to them: USAID states that "U.S. foreign assistance has always had the twofold purpose of furthering America's foreign policy interests in expanding democracy and free markets while improving the lives of the citizens of the developing world."

Yes, bringing 'democracy' to the world. Haiti and Iraq and Afghanistan are examples of these policies not to mention the many S.American countries the U.S. brought democracy to.

People keep asking what interests the U.S. have in Haiti. I hope this tragedy has at least one good outcome which would be to wake up Americans about what their government is actually doing in these poor countries, and what their tax dollars are being used for. And that they start doing something to change these policies.

[BrightKnight]

101. Focusing finite resources where they can do the most good

is apparently a difficult concept to understand. Bringing in SAR teams at this point is not going to save as many lives as other types of resources might. Like triage it seems cruel but it is not. It just requires a little abstract thinking.

If they were forcing existing SAR teams to leave I would have a problem with that. At some point the existing SAR teams should leave.

[EFerrari]

104. It's a matter of limited will, not limited resources.

I haven't heard anyone say there is a lack of funding. Have you?

There are places outside of the capitol -- at the epicenter, actually, where as of this morning there was no one on the ground. Apparently the Canadians are going to get there tomorrow.

[PacerLJ35]

105. You can't be everywhere at once...

Most of the manpower is located at points of entry, trying to get more stuff in. The additional manpower is being brought in (by a number of nations, including the US) to get it spread out there.

[EFerrari]

107. "You can't be everywhere at once" is a false dilemma.

No one is being asked to be everywhere at once.

The Canadians will be in Carrefour and to Léogâne tomorrow or so. Why not yesterday or the day before? The mission's scope is limited by its planners, not by the physical aspects of the venue or for lack of funding or skilled people.

I don't want to diss the people there working their @sses off in those conditions. But the bureaucratic bullshit has hampered this mission from day one.

[PacerLJ35]

109. That's quite a bit of real estate affected...

Several thousand relief workers in country...many dedicated to the supply chain. They have sent aircraft around looking at and surveying the damage and setting up other distribution centers. I'm sorry they don't meet your approval. You should write a letter.

[EFerrari]

115. Right, as I said, I don't fault the relief workers in any of this.

[PacerLJ35]

117. Even the planners have a HUGE job cut out for them...it's not as simple as you think

As I posted in another message, my dad spent his entire 3 day weekend at work helping them with access and other planning info.

[EFerrari]

127. I didn't claim it was simple. But it is clearly being screwed up.

The Marines finally got to the General Hospital today, which has had zero security problems, apparently to protect it from the press. They brought their weapons, that's it. And it was too bad because the hospital director of this, the biggest hospital in PaP, said they had about 24 hours left of the supplies they still had. But no food, pain meds, oxygen, gauze.

And you know, I can't really be angry at the military, either. Because they are doing the job they were told to do in a place where the ground is still shaking. So, actually, the job isn't being screwed up. I'm wrong about that.

But I'm not wrong about the State Department and with the White House. They are the deciders in this situation. They are spreading this bullshit that the Haitian people are disorganized and could be violent and obviously need both Clintons to tell them what they need and how they want to proceed. And THAT makes me really, really angry. The bottom line is, DC took Aristide out because he wouldn't privatize 9 key industries that we wanted. Well, those industries were privatized. And that's why Haiti doesn't mill flour any more and why it imports cement and why its ag sector disappeared. It was a scam then and I only can wonder what is left to scam these people out of now.

[piedmont]

111. Ok, you have 90 flights or so every day into Haiti. Given that only only 75 people...

have been pulled from the rubble, and many of them subsequently died, which planes will you refuse entry so that search-and-rescue can enter? Based on the numbers, it looks like a plane-load of food or doctors or hospital equipment can save many more people than a plane-load of search-and-rescue workers and their equipment.

[EFerrari]

114. You are only talking about one point of entry when you make

that assumption, right?

[PacerLJ35]

116. Other points of entry are being developed and utilized now

Over the weekend my father (who works for NGA...National Geospatial Intel Agency...don't ask where the "I" went, I don't know) spent his weekend digging up and distributing info about the other airfields...so while people howled about why nothing was being done...it was getting done. The port is also being surveyed and work is being done to open it. The Air Force secured and opened a drop zone. All in all, they are trying. If you can do better then go on down there.

[piedmont]

118. Yes, because the others are quite a distance from Port-au-Prince and are also being used

for food, medical equipment, etc. The same point still applies. A plane-load of food, medical supplies, etc. will save more people than a plane-load of search-and-rescue. The numbers I saw were approx. 36 teams had pulled 72-75 survivors from the rubble. That's about 2 per team, and does not take into consideration the fact that some of them later died. If you have seen higher numbers, I would be interested (and glad) to see it.

[EFerrari]

128. piedmont, we had a storm here last night and I was knocked off

all day today. I think I will look for some numbers as this is a story that I want to follow.

The issue that seems to be emerging is priority being given to security when security hasn't been an issue. It really is looking a lot like Katrina at this point.

[buzzard]

119. This is what I think frustrates many, the logistics and likely statistics in this type of

situation, someone needs to decide where the resources are best allocated however hard it is. My heart is aching for the these people.

[PacerLJ35]

106. Funny, I know these guys...

http://www.reporternews.com/photos/galleries/2010/jan/19/dyess-haiti/14663/

Also, look around...one other C-130 on the ramp...everything else is a civil aircraft. Yes, I do suppose the US is denying flights to non-US military aircraft...

[Javaman]

125. A buddy of mine who was called up to go to Haiti

sat with his team in Houston for 4 days, before finally being told to go home.