Supreme Court reverse for Black Panther Mumia Abu-Jamal

[StarfarerBill]

Source: BBC

The US Supreme Court has overturned a decision by a lower court in Philadelphia to block the execution of a former "black power" militant.

The lower court reversed the death penalty on Mumia Abu-Jamal in March 2008 after finding that the jury had been given flawed instructions.

The ex-Black Panther's conviction for murdering a policeman still stood.

The Supreme Court made its ruling after a case in Ohio last week which turned on a similar legal issue.

Under the law, jurors do not have to agree unanimously on a mitigating circumstance in a case.

The Philadelphia 3rd US Circuit Court of Appeals had ruled that the jurors in the Abu-Jamal case had received misleading instructions "as to whether unanimity was required in consideration of mitigating circumstances".

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468657.stm

[New Dawn]

1. Not surprising. The US Supreme Court is owned and operated by the super-rich.

[Rozlee]

3. What did you really expect...

from asstards that even approve the execution of the mentally retarded? To that super rich, you could have added super heartless.

[alp227]

7. Erhm, regarding the mentally retarded, look up the case Atkins v. Virginia.

Or are you talking about the Supreme Court's allowing Texas to execute the low-IQ Bobby Wayne Woods more recently?

[Rozlee]

8. Between Scalia and his hand puppet, Slappy Thomas

I no longer have any idea what I'm talking about. Scalia writes some crappy dissention, such as he did with Troy Davis, when 7 out of 9 witnesses recanted their testimonies, that the Constitution does not guarantee that an innocent person cannot be put to death if a fair trial and due process has occurred. I can't even explain that comment. It's OK in other words, to execute someone if they were declared guilty in a court of law, even if they were declared innocent later? Like that father that was executed in Texas for killing his children in a house fire that they believe was now innocent. No, these Conservatives on the Court remind me of Cotton Mather who said that it was better that 100 innocents be hanged than that one witch escape.

[MilesColtrane]

72. "Slappy Thomas"

I love it.

Also known as, Mr. Getalong.

[defendandprotect]

59. +1000% --

[Ter]

106. So when is the execution date?

Are the appeals now exhausted?

[twitomy]

2. Good. NT

[Cartoonist]

4. DP is bad

I am opposed to the death penalty. I think Mumia should be given life in prison. He's as guilty as OJ, even more so. It bothers me to see the left champion this cop killer. I don't mind people disagreeing with me and having other opinions. I'm cool with that. It just upsets me that some poeple assume that if you are left, that you are supposed to think that Mumia is innocent. Hogwash!

[stuart68]

12. Guiltier than OJ

Jamal was found guilty by a jury of is peers.

He is a cop-killer.

[boppers]

38. I concur.

This is an argument about jury *instructions*, not about the substantial merits of the case. I'm against the death penalty, for this reason (endless, costly, litigation)... but that doesn't mean that he should be set free.

[Codeine]

21. Agreed, and agreed.

The death penalty is completely awful, but fuck Mumia. I do not enjoy the notion that my liberal bona fides are dependent on supporting that asshole.

[Jefferson23]

5. So far, this has been one hell of a depressing week, and it's only Wednesday.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

6. i concur...it's a mad world

[robcon]

9. I think the sentence is appropriate.

He killed a policeman. He got a fair trial. He should die.

[proteus_lives]

10. +1

[Jack_DeLeon]

11. I concur.

[Rozlee]

13. That's just it. There are too many descrepancies and tinges of racism

about his original trial and subsequent appeal. The stenographer for the court reported hearing the judge say, "I'm going to fry that nigger." Witnesses recanted, or their testimony was found to be unreliable, or was the result of prisoner's claims, or conflicting testimony. Witnesses were subjected to hours of interogation and sleep deprivation until they didn't even remember what exactly they had or hadn't seen and the police "remembered" things for them. Police were convinced that he was the killer and kept forcing evidence in that direction. The most popular theory is that he has been covering for his younger brother who in retrospect does seem like he'd be more likely. But, the reason people from all over the world have rallied to his cause is the blatant unfairness, racism and police harassment in the trial and appeals. It is just so in-your-face as to be blinding.

[alp227]

14. I feel so convinced that Mumia is guilty, in spite of all the protests and apparent evidence

For example, in December 2007 new photos surfaced that undermined the prosecutorial claims. The NBC Today show displayed them during an interview with Daniel Faulkner's widow.

And if Mumia keeps saying he didn't fire the murder weapon, why did he have a gun holster anyways? The gun holster is a definite finger pointer even though those witnesses who initially identified him as the shooter "recanted" decades later, when it's already too late.

Paris made Mumia an honorary citizen and even named the Rue Mumia street after him! And for human rights activists Mumia is the most special of prisoners, so special compared to other cop killers like...(I live in the SF Bay Area so this list may be a bit biased) DeShawn Campbell or Alberto Alvarez. Just because Mumia's a smart guy who went to college, led the Philadelphia Association of Black Journalists, and could express himself?

[mojowork_n]

16. And that traitor, Dreyfus, was really guilty, too.

This isn't a murder case, it's an ideological litmus test. The "Do the Right Thing" crowd vs. the "fry him" cadre.

That Mumia had a horribly bad trial is more clearly evident to me than that he might really be the killer. The real losers are all of us, if that's the case.

[paulsby]

31. whether or not he had a "bad trial"

procedurally speaking, fwiw, is tangential to whether he is guilty as fuck, which he is.

for mumia NOT to be the killer, you would have to believe some pretty harebrained stuff.

let's remember, he was pulled over by the cop, and when backup arrived, faulkner was dead from bullets from mumia's gun, mumia was wearing a holster looped into his belt, AND his gun was out of the holster and near him... oh, and he had a bullet from faulkner's gun in him...

i mean, cmon.

[mojowork_n]

32. Mumia's life was saved by the surgeon...

...He wasn't expected to live.

He was also shot at the crime scene.

Faulkner was shot by a different caliber weapon than Mumia had.


BUT -----> the "frame" wasn't made to fit those facts, in the event that Mumia survived being shot, himself.

....Hence, the incredibly tangled web of information and dis-information that's sprung up from this case, as the prosecution's attempted to paper over all the unintended consequences. Your lame attempt to throw some bogus (and mostly incorrect) 'facts' as the "last word" on the trial just plays to type.

This is one of the biggest political trials in history. Right up there with Lieutenant Colonel Albert Dreyfus, Sir Thomas More, Sacco and Vanzetti, and any one of the kangaroo court proceedings that were presided over by Torquemada. Torquemada had a latter-day reincarnation in the person of the "prosecutor in robes," Judge Albert Sabo -- who got to preside over the retrial of the case!!!!


Keep that in mind, Paulsby ------> You can't keep people from thinking for themselves, long after you're gone.


The significance of this trial -- why has all of this been going on and on... and on... and on... for 30 years? -- isn't really about who should be "fried," for whatever kind of circumstantial evidence.

It's important because it's a frozen moment in time -- just after the passage of the Civil Rights Act, and Brown vs. Board of Education, and the 60's "urban riots" -- that FUTURE historians might focus on.

...Like Vietnam, in other words, it's a "hearts and minds" propaganda campaign.


THAT's the fact that needs to be discussed.

...And that's probably the way later generations are going to judge the case. So you guys have already lost. The City of Paris has named a street for Mumia. That's probably going to last longer than the memory of you or me, swapping rhetorical punches here in the 21st century... Some unknown "investigative journalist" -- here's hoping that job description gets revived in more than name only -- will figure it all out.

[paulsby]

33. falsehoods from the get go

it took me just a few seconds to spot one... in the third line

"Faulkner was shot by a different caliber weapon than Mumia had. "

this is one of the CLASSIC and pernicious myths spouted by mumia supporters. it is easily and demonstrably FALSE.

http://www.danielfaulkner.com/original/indexmyth1.html
note that even mumia's OWN ballistic expert doesn't refute this...

feel free to peruse the trial transcripts which support these FACTS

(note this sight encourages copying and pasting and thus this is not a violation of the 4 paragraph rule methinks)

i would like an admission from you that you were wrong. my experience with mumia supporters doesn't suggest that this is likely, but i hold out hope for intellectual honesty...


Those who support Mumia Abu-Jamal often allege that the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain was .44 caliber. Jamal's gun -- found on the ground next to him at the crime scene -- was a .38 caliber revolver. Therefore, his supporters argue, Jamal couldn't have fired the shot that killed Officer Faulkner.

When asked to provide proof to support this allegation, Jamal's supporters point to a handwritten note made by Assistant Medical Examiner, Dr. Paul Hoyer. Dr. Hoyer's note said, "shot 44 Cal".

Dr. Hoyer testified at the 1995 PCRA Hearing and explained that his 1981 note merely reflected his speculation at what caliber the bullet might be, made when he first saw the wound and before he started the autopsy. The note was written on a piece of scrap paper, and was not a part of (and was never intended to be a part of) his professional findings.

Some of Jamal's supporters, including his attorneys, have now altered this ".44 caliber" myth, and now argue that that there may be several fragments of the bullet "missing," and that if these fragments were the correct size and weight, they would prove that the bullet was .44 caliber. They have never offered any evidence, of any kind, to support this theory.




BRIEF REBUTTAL

Official ballistics tests done on the fatal bullet verify that Officer Faulkner was killed by a .38 caliber bullet, not a .44 caliber bullet. The fatal .38 slug was a Federal brand Special +P bullet with a hollow base (the hollow base in a +P bullet was distinctive to Federal ammunition at that time). It is the exact type (+P with a hollow base), brand (Federal), and caliber (.38) of bullet found in Jamal's gun. Additionally, tests have proven that the bullet that killed Officer Faulkner was fired from a weapon with the same rifling characteristics as Jamal's .38 Caliber revolver. Further, Jamal's own ballistics expert, George Fassnacht, conceded in his 1995 PCRA testimony that the fatal bullet was not .44 caliber, and that it was most "likely" a .38. Although the D.A.'s officer offered in open court to let Jamal's attorneys test the fatal bullet, they refused this offer, and have never offered any alternative test results to counter the above evidence. Dr. James Hoyer's handwritten notation on a piece of scrap paper certainly does not constitute such evidence. Dr. Hoyer, a medical doctor who has had no formal ballistics training, has never claimed that he was able to determine the caliber of the bullet. He plainly testified in 1995 that what he wrote was a "guess." Furthermore, Dr. Hoyer testified that, after writing this guess, he had measured the bullet with a standard ruler. Although he acknowledged that this was not the accepted scientific method by which to gage the caliber of a bullet, his rough measurement was consistent with the slug being .38 caliber, and not a .44. Finally, Dr. Hoyer testified that, at the time he made his .44 caliber guess -- while looking at the horrendous wound to Officer Faulkner's head -- he was unaware that the killer had been using high-velocity +P ammunition. Had he known this, he would not have assumed that the slug was of an unusually large caliber.

So maybe the gun the police produced as evidence against Jamal was thrown there in order to frame him? No. The gun had been legally purchased by Jamal years prior to the shooting, and was registered in his name.




FACTS SUPPORTING OUR REBUTTAL

Despite the meaningless nature of Dr. Hoyer's notation, those who support Jamal often argue that the jury should have heard about it at the 1982 trial anyway. But had the defense introduced Hoyer's notation, there is no doubt that Hoyer would have been called to testify about it. What Jamal's supporters hide is the fact that this is exactly what happened in 1995.

At the 1995 PCRA hearing, Dr. Hoyer appeared as a defense witness. Leonard Weinglass asked Doctor Hoyer about his "44 cal" notation:

Weinglass, "What is it doctor?"

Dr. Hoyer: "It's a notation I made on a piece of paper that was normally, normally discarded."

N. T. 8/9/95, 186

Dr. Hoyer readily admitted that he had no formal ballistics training.

Fisk: "Am I correct sir, that you've never had training in the field of ballistics and firearms identification?"

Hoyer: "I've never had formal training in that, that is correct."

Fisk: "And am I correct that in 1981 you were by no means an expert in that field?"

Hoyer: "That is correct."

Fisk: "Would I be correct that any statement by you as to the caliber of any projectile would merely be a lay guess and not that, not the valuation of an expert in the field of ballistics?"

Hoyer: "Correct."

N.T. 8/9/95,191-192




WHAT DID THE BALLISTICS REPORTS
REVEAL ABOUT THE GUN AND BULLET?

In the 1982 trial, the prosecution Firearms Examiner, Anthony Paul, was asked if the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain was consistent with having been fired from a Charter Arms .38 caliber revolver (the type of gun owned by Jamal and found next to him at the scene). Paul states that it is.

Paul: "It's possible to say that it was fired from a revolver with that type of rifling, with the Charter Arms type of rifling."

N.T. 6/23/82, 6.110

Later at trial, defense attorney Anthony Jackson asks Anthony Paul if the general rifling characteristics etched of the bullet removed from Officer Faulkner's brain matched the pattern found in the barrel of Jamal's gun. Mr. Paul states that they clearly do match Jamal's gun.

"The general characteristics being part of the eight lands and grooves and a right hand direction of twist, you have a part of that still exposed with sufficient quantity to be able to say that a firearm rifled with eight lands and grooves with a right hand direction of twist discharged that projectile."

N.T. 6/23/82, 6.168

Anthony Paul goes on to state that there are many .38 caliber handguns with eight lands and grooves and a right hand twist, and that the fatal bullet was so deformed that it could not be scientifically matched to Jamal's gun to the exclusion of all other firearms. However, he stresses the fact that there was one, and only one, gun with all of these characteristics at the crime scene -- the gun owned by Mumia Abu-Jamal. This is the same gun that was registered in Jamal's name and that was found next to him at the crime scene less than a minute after the shooting. By any rational standard, these facts show that the fatal bullet was fired from Jamal's gun.

In addition to matching the general rifling characteristics of the gun used to kill Officer Faulkner, Jamal's five-shot Charter Arms handgun contained five spent casings from hollow-base .38 caliber high velocity Special +P ammunition. Of the shells found in Jamal's gun, all were +P ammunition, (4 were Federal brand and 1 Remington). In 1981, Federal was the only brand of +P ammunition that had a hollow base. Additionally, Anthony Paul acknowledged that the +P bullet was a type of ammunition that was rarely seen in 1981. Anthony Paul commented that the +P is a unique bullet, with an extra heavy load of gunpowder. It so devastates its target that police departments are restricted from using it.

This extensive ballistics evidence clearly ties Jamal's gun to the murder. But his attorneys and supporters simply ignore this evidence, hide it, or act as if it doesn't exist.

[mojowork_n]

35. Uhhh...

...That was pretty breath-taking. I'm not even going to check on the time/date stamps of the posts, but between my making my last post and your reply....


...it wasn't a whole lot of time, dude.

So it looks to me like I'm up against some sort of Big Time, Professional (or at least "free lance")

... Mercenary Anti-Mumia-Supporter


I commend your preparedness for having crap already prepared on your hard drive to cut and paste into a reply.... OOPS, I mean a "voluminous butt-load of crap to cut-and-paste into a howlingly sad reply" --

...but it's still crap, no matter how quickly you were ready to copy your boilerplate.

[paulsby]

36. intellectual dishonesty noted

my posts were "there" because unlike liars like you, i KNOW the case, i have READ trial transcripts, and i have long been perusing the sites relative to this case.

unlike you, i go to source documents.

the statements in my post are REFERENCED.

how many times have i heard this lie about the caliber of the gun? at least two dozen times. it's typical of the mumiacs. they repeat a lie often enough, and most don't even realize it's a lie.

the transcripts prove it's a lie. even mumia's expert concedes that, as is REFERENCED in my post.

as i suspected, you dismiss evidence because it doesn't match your bigoted nonfactual lies.

you have provided ZERO evidence, just assertions.

here are PDF's of the actual transcripts...

http://www.danielfaulkner.com/docs/MumiaTrialandPCRAAppealsTranscripts.pdf

again, source documents and facts. i have them, you don't. any RATIONAL du'er (and i trust that most du'ers are rational) will read this exchange and know that you are simply a liar and an intellectually dishonest mumiac.

i have provided evidence to support my assertions. you have provided boilerplate lies.

hth

[mojowork_n]

37. Yadda, yadda, yadda...

What I'm saying is...


Your.... SOURCES....


...and References....


and all the bogus, pretend and bullshit mastery of the facts of the case that you pretend to have --



...The Question that you can never begin to approach a reply to is, 'By the way, WHY is it SO important for the U.S. government to fry this man... wtf... what's the big deal, HOW has this whole thing gotten dragged out for so long....? ...Are there ANY larger issues that might be at play?'

Your own silence will condemn you to Future Historians.

......

{Edited to remove a reference to an... ass wad.}

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Good thing you aren't one of his lawyers. Nice rebuttal of facts. Yadda, yadda, yadda LOL.

[mojowork_n]

48. And your point is -- without having supplied any facts of your own?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

49. That paulsby filled his posts with facts and links and you refused to.

[mojowork_n]

52. ONE single link, and a heaping pile of assertions,

...that's all those posts were "filled with."

Can you count above "one?"

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. Compared to your nothing we have a winner and it's not you.

[mojowork_n]

55. Pithy, bellicose, truculent and... pointless.

Your turn.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. I hope you have a wonderful night and a very pleasant end to the week.

[mojowork_n]

56. -- And here's another

mostly blank but still dubious/skeptical post for you to pile on.

[defendandprotect]

65. Let me recommend that you try "ignore" for both of them . ..

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

89. You have no idea how proud that makes me! Thanks you made my day.

[mojowork_n]

117. Well, from this end it's been a little

like one of those "Advice to the Lovelorn" columns The Onion used to run. Ever see one of those? They were usually addressed to experts in highly technical fields (certified machinists, locksmiths). The replies were always a bit too narrowly focused and featured heavy use of professional jargon.

Or come to think of it... -------> Edit to add:


The War Prayer (Mark Twain)

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation

God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --

An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"

The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.

"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

After a pause: "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"

It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

121. I've had far to much to drink to read a post that long.

[mojowork_n]

39. Please, put this into some sort of larger context. WTF?!? n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. So you really don't want to argue the facts of the case? Just cast dispersions on other DUers.

[paulsby]

44. well, at least he's not

casting asparagus! :)

seriously, though... there is stuff that is arguable and stuff that isn't. the caliber thing is simply a LIE. i explained why it was, it's EXTENSIVELY referenced, and even mumia's frigging ballistics expert was in accordance with it. there is a lot of stuff that's at least ARGUABLE, but the caliber thing is not.

it's exactly the sort of lie that gets repeated in the mumiac echo chamber and a mumiac simply won't EVER admit that they are wrong. no matter how much evidence is presented. their minds are closed. mumia is cute and loquacious, and a political activist, so he's innocent.
i just KNEW this clown would not admit he was wrong. he's not here to exchange ideas. he's here to ignore everything that runs counter to his prejudices, and call people names.

and if this is the kind of defenders that mumia attracts, i ALMOST feel bad for him :)

god forbid a mumiac admit they are wrong. ever.

[mojowork_n]

47. Buh-Loney

Yes, I WILL admit the caliber thing *may* have been a reach. It has been years since I did much reading on the case -- I'll be happy to admit that, too.

But I certainly won't take your word for it, that it's not "arguable," or that it's a LIE, especially when you've been so generous with links and references (other than "danielfaulkner.org.").

As far as name-calling goes, Ass-Clown, you're the one who hasn't begun to address the question of context, and you've mis-characterized my doubts about the whole judicial proceeding with the curt dismissal that....

'mumia is cute and loquacious, and a political activist, so he's innocent.'




WTF? That's your concept of "exchanging ideas?"

[defendandprotect]

67. You've "explained" a lot of things ....

here Paulsby which few here agree ever agree with --

You're called out constantly for your crap on trying to protect police officers -

[paulsby]

104. i have explained why the caliber thing is a lie. even MUMIA's BALLISTIC EXPERT AGREES

but mumiacs don't care about facts.

as you so well demonstrate.

you are also lying when you say i always defend cops. not when they are clearly wrong. look at the paul schene case. when that video was posted here, i said it looked like excessive force, and was way out of line. i didn't defend him. because what he did was wrong imo

this has little to do with cops. it has to do with facts in the case record.

he was found a few feet from ofc. faulkner, a holster threaded in his belt, a gun registered to him near him, recently fired, rounds from ofc. faulkner's gun in mumia's body, and rounds from mumia's gun *(same caliber and rifling characteristics) in ofc faulkner.

the caliber thing is a LIE.

i provided the evidence.

you provide... nothing

[defendandprotect]

66. The facts of the case are that witnesses were intimidated . . . to lie --

and that the evidence shows the judge was racist and a "hanging judge" ...

[defendandprotect]

64. Agree --

and the crap presented simply is another case of official information

being altered after the fact --

I agree with you on the historical nature of this case --

[golfguru]

73. +1000 I always appreciate facts instead of

conjecture and outright lies.

[fascisthunter]

82. surrre you do

[defendandprotect]

63. And the writings and talks with Mumia will live .... he was a journalist reporting

on corruption -- he had a permit to carry a weapon --

Many of the witnesses were intimidated ---

The officer was set up to be murdered -- and Mumia framed --

The judge was a racist/hanging judge --- evidence shows that -- enough to

completely overturn the sentence --

:)


I used to frequently give money to the lawyers involved with Mumia . . .

haven't heard from them in a long time!!

[paulsby]

105. hopefully, mumia will be killed soon...

the man deserves no better...

[defendandprotect]

62. Mumia had a permit to carry a weapon . . .

The officer was set up to be murdered --

Mumia was framed for the murder --

two birds with one stone --

This was also a racist/hanging judge --

Many witnesses were intimidated -- easy to do in poor neighborhoods --

[paulsby]

22. the reason people rally to his cause is because they are ignorant of case facts

, plus mumia is cute and talks a good game.

there was TONS of evidence against him, and now that he has been found guilty, it is up to HIM (and his attorneys) to explain away all the incriminating evidence and.or offer a nice alternative theory, neither of which they have done to any extent.

he's guilty as fuck.

[defendandprotect]

68. Only YOU are the one who knows . . . right, paulsby?

The reason that people rally to Mumia's defense is because they can read

and undertand the facts of the case --

and respond to the writings and words of Mumia as a humanist -- not as a murderer.

You're really, really more desperate than ever on this one, eh, paulsby!!

Wow!!

Mumia really gets to you --

And most of us here like him better than you!!

:evilgrin:

[WriteDown]

109. Aren't you the same poster who claims that the FDA allows 17% feces in food?

Seems like reading or facts are not your strengths.

[leftynyc]

25. And the glove didn't fit

and the cop was a racist - blah, blah, blah - I still think he's guilty as sin (both Mumia and OJ). The people who champion his cause are barking up the wrong tree. There are plenty of truly innocent on death row - help them instead. Let this cop killer rot.

[defendandprotect]

69. Many of the witnesses were intimidated to lie against Mumia . ..

They were intimidated by the police --

Do you think that would be happening if they actually had a case against Mumia?

Mumia was licensed to carry a weapon -- he was a reporter in the area unveiling corruption --

The officer was set up -- two birds with one stone -- Mumia framed.

The JUDGE was a racist -- by his own words -- a hanging judge, as well!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. When cops are killed in Michigan, the killer doesn't get the death penalty.

What do you think about that?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

18. Maybe he should have shot a cop in Michigan instead of Pennsylvania, then. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. That's no answer. -nt

[leftynyc]

26. It's the perfect answer

Each state has its own laws.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. Good thing he wasn't in Michigan.

[24601]

53. I think that the people of Michigan have the right through their

legislature and governor to make that decision. Should the people of Pennsylvania be denied the same right? Differences in state laws is a new concept, having been around only since around 1789. But since the Constitution gives the people and states the rights and powers not delegated to the federal government nor prohibited to the states (10th Amendment) it looks like the practice is here until the Constitution is amended to require identical state laws. And should that happen, more states have the DP than don't, so Michigan would have to change, not Pennsylvania.

[defendandprotect]

70. I think that's right . . . there should be no death penalty . . .

:)

[RobinA]

29. Not Sure About the Trial

I'm as liberal as they come, anti-death penalty, and think Mumia is guilty as they come. I live in Philadelphia and have read the facts and what the jury was given (don't ask, it was a long time ago). I arrived at the position where I am convinced he did it, but if I were on the jury I don't think I could have given him the death penalty (well, aside from the fact that I wouldn't give anyone the death penalty). There was some questionable stuff at the trial which could cast doubt. For me to give the death penalty (which I wouldn't) it would need to be 150% proof of guilt. If I remember correctly, after I checked into the facts I was questioning whether I could have convicted him, even though I would have bet money on his guilt.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

60. Got a trial by a racist judge . . . and witnesses were intimidated . . .

try actually reading something about it --

the cop was set up to be killed -- and Mumia was framed --

he was a journalist exposing corruption --

[JonLP24]

87. I don't know what exactly happened

but I'm sure the trial wasn't fair.

[defendandprotect]

94. Yes . . . agree --- I've been disconnected from this subject for a while . . .

but the judge has show himself -- by his own words to be racist and a "hanging judge" --

that anything decided in his courtroom could be allowed to stand is unbelievable!

However, friends of Mumia have continued the investigations and I know it's all out

there on the internet somewhere. I can't do searches right now.

I'm trying also to think of the name of the Native American they continue to hold in jail

where obviously he was also framed. Another case going on for decades and obviously wrong.


:)

[greiner3]

15. Let's just kill each other;

And let the rich and powerful take over. They can rebreed a slave class and have things back as they are now in about 200 years, provided they really have created the 'Fountain of Youth.'

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulsby]

23. if thinking that this piece of scum

who has lived on death row for decades, been lauded by the ignorati, even "spoke" at college commencement (Evergreen state college) etc. deserves to have the penalty that was imposed on him carried out, makes us "republicrats" than so be it.

the majority of US citizens support the death penalty. i'm not a big fan, but in the case of a guy who is so obviously guilty, and who has so thoroughly thumbed his nose at justice, and who has NEVER offered a compelling alternative theory of the crime ... HE WAS AT THE FRIGGING SCENE. IF HE DIDN'T DO IT, THEN HE SHOULD TELL US WHO DID (hint: he did it), nor been able to refute the evidence against him, i say let justice be done. execute the man

[RZM]

24. He also gave the commencement address at

Antioch College about 10 years ago. It's a shame that the 'Mumia is innocent' meme has worked its way into some anti-death penalty circles. I've often thought that many (white) people who claim him to be innocent are actually agnostic about this notion, but see the slogan as a legitimate means of displaying anti-racist bonafides and appealing to/identifying with sections of of the African-American community that champion his innocence.

[paulsby]

27. yes. i think those two issues get munged together

being anti-death penalty i can totally respect. and there are certainly people who have received the death penalty under questionable circumstances, but mumia is a very poor poster child for innocence.

imo, he's right up there with the (late) tookie williams, who in that case was a person for whom people advocated clemency. at least they didn't pretend he was innocent.

mumia has become a cult. and when people become a cult, facts just don't matter.

and you are right, his race and political background make him a great symbol (he IS a symbol) for those wishing anti-racist cred, and/or political activist cred

[defendandprotect]

61. The officer was set up to be killed -- and Mumia was framed for it --

two birds with one stone --

Mumia was a journalist reporting on corruption ---

Witnesses were intimidated -- easy to do in poor neighborhoods like that --

and in fact what we can see of even whistleblowers trying to tell us what's

happening in government they are also quickly intimidated.

[RZM]

75. I doubt it . . .

Your argument is classic conspiracy theory . . . and not just because it somewhat resembles the plot of 'Conspiracy Theory,' starring Mel Gibson (lowly cab driver set up by the powers that be for knowing too much).

It also features the fatal flaw of most conspiracy theories. The masterminds are so forward-thinking, well-placed, and dastardly that they are willing and able to plan and execute an intricate operation with many moving parts that is dependent on the cooperation and continued silence of many people (some of whom are apparently unwilling participants).

YET

They are also so stupid that they opt for this grandiose scheme, which has to go through the justice system and thus enter the public record, instead of simply having these two quietly killed. They're powerful and malevolent enough to pull all of this off, yet apparently it doesn't occur to them that they could achieve the same goals in a much easier and less-risky manner.

[defendandprotect]

76. So you're saying . . .

the police do not wrong -- they never try to intimidate witnesses?

There's no racism in the police department, no corruption?

And, not that I'm a Mel Gibson fan -- I find him a disgusting man -- but in the movie

you're referring to, he is ACTUALLY a victim of a conspiracy!!

If you think criminals are idiots and incapable of planning crimes you have a few things

to learn.

Begin here . . .

This is not "Conspiracy-free America" --

[RZM]

96. My post implied none of those things

I didn't say a word about racism, corruption, witness intimidation.

What I said was your scenario makes little sense. Why would the planners of this operation, who in order to pull it off must be incredibly malevolent as well as powerful enough to pull so many strings, go through all of this when they could just have these guys killed and be done with it . . . Therein lies the 'fatal flaw' I was referring to. If these guys are so smart, evil, and powerful, surely they would want to accomplish their goals in the most efficient and safest way - and a grand conspiracy with many moving parts just ain't that.

The presence of racism, corruption, or witness intimidation in society is not evidence that Mumia was framed. It's possible to live in a world where these things exist and Mumia also shoots a cop.

[defendandprotect]

98. Conversations evolve . . . police enforcement is riddled with racism . . .

if you don't know that you must live in a cave --

JFK assassination -- 50% of Dallas Police Dept KKK members --

RFK assassination -- 50% of LAPD members of John Birch Society --

Many of our states' police enforement under Federal supervision because of RACISM --

and RACIAL PROFILING--!!!

I'm not sure what "operation" you're talking about -- but if you're not familiar

with right wing political violence in America, I'd suggest you hit the library.

If you're not familiar with CIA involvement in coups, try the internet or the library.


Like ordinary crime, there is NO perfect crime --

that's why the need for coverups -- and they work well.


Whether JFK -- or assassination plot against FDR - these are the elites/corporates involved.

Our largest corporate elites. If you want a list of books, I'd be happy to give you a list.

Whether political violence or "fake flag" operations -- the elites can easily call upon

organized crime -- and now of course their off the shelf military -- Blackwater, Halliburton

KBR . . . which also served LBJ!

[RZM]

102. I'm talking about Mumia here

You're talking about Halliburton, LBJ, and the John Birch Society.

Again, I've never implied I don't think that corruption and racism exist in police forces. I just question how that proves Mumia is innocent. You're saying a lot of stuff, but not directly linking it to the topic at hand.

And although I am writing this from a windowless, basement office, I assure you I don't live in a cave :)

[defendandprotect]

108. Just to remind you of what you were saying . . .

It also features the fatal flaw of most conspiracy theories. The masterminds are so forward-thinking, well-placed, and dastardly that they are willing and able to plan and execute an intricate operation with many moving parts that is dependent on the cooperation and continued silence of many people (some of whom are apparently unwilling participants).

YET

They are also so stupid that they opt for this grandiose scheme, which has to go through the justice system and thus enter the public record, instead of simply having these two quietly killed. They're powerful and malevolent enough to pull all of this off, yet apparently it doesn't occur to them that they could achieve the same goals in a much easier and less-risky manner.

AND YOU WERE CERTAINLY REFERRING TO PLURAL . . . 'CONSPIRACY THEORIES' . . .

Again -- you're naive and I would encourage you to look at all of this from the highest

perspective ---

Meanwhile, how many shootings of innocent citizens does it take for you to begin to question

what is going on in police enforcement? Diallo, Abner Luima -- and the perversions of the

police?

Wake up!


Mumia's is a very simple case -- they wanted to get rid of the police officer and they wanted

to get rid of Mumia - two birds with one stone.

And a judge willing to do their bidding --

And fragile, vulnerable people caught in the area and easily intimidated to lie for them.

What more do you think you need?????

Good luck!

[cali]

99. well said. welcome to DU.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

43. and at least 1 foreigner is here trying to impose his beliefs on the US.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Hey, you don't have to be foreign to be anti-death penalty

Yeesh.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

83. The person to whom I responded is Australian.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. But he has either lived in the U.S. or emigrated from the U.S.

(I met him when I lived in Portland), so he's not exactly uninformed about conditions here.

Besides, being "foreign" does not invalidate a person's opinion. Sometimes you get a clearer view from the outside.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

111. I never said it invalidated his opinion.

Just a little friendly jab at an long time nemisis.

[LanternWaste]

79. 'Impose'-- that wonderful catchall phrase...

'Impose'-- that wonderful catchall phrase which nets "opinions contrary to mine' along with many others. Much like 'Nanny State'-- no set definition expect for the subjective variances of the author. Melodrama at the expense of relevance and precision.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

84. If the shoe fits.....

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

95. That phrase. It does not work like you think it works. -nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

113. If you say so my brazilian friend.

Did you hear the joke about the 2 brazilian troops that got injured in Iraq? They told George Bush about it and he said,"How many is that exactly?"

[LanternWaste]

110. Nice bumper sticker...

Nice bumper sticker... shiny and colorful. probably with good adhesive. But in the end, lacking substance.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

112. Such is life...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

80. Ooooo, I'm POWERFUL! And EVIL!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA

That's amazing. I didn't know I could "impose my beliefs" by speaking my mind on an Internet forum.

And I must be pretty fearsome, that you deemed necessary to refer to me in a sideways fashion. "At least 1 foreigner..."

Watch out, I'm going to use my Leftist Death Ray to brainwash you all, right-thinking Americans! Shortly you will be all like... SWEDES!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

85. Actually I was only referring to the Australian to whom I responded.

I love brazil! Jiu-Jitsu and beautiful women. It doesn't get much better than that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. There's MORE of us? EXCELLENT!

Oh, and condescension will get you nowhere. I think I will adjust my death ray so it, additionally, makes you gay.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

88. Condescension? Have you lost your mind and is there something wrong with being gay.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

91. OF COURSE I lost my mind, silly! I'm LEFTIST! And therefore EVIL! And MAD!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

114. Come on there is nothing to be mad about.

[defendandprotect]

71. Right . . . you can notice the BULLYING attitudes . . . the aggression behind the comments . ..

very telling -- !!!

:eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

115. Yes very telling!

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

90. Greetings, fellow harbinger of evil!

Allow me to suggest this as a new avatar for you, so we can destroy God, Mom, Guns and Apple Pie as a team:

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wpelb]

28. What was the breakdown?

Did the court rule unanimously, or was it a split decision? How did Justice Sotomayor vote?

[rayofreason]

30. Summary Decision.

http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/01/todays-orders-53/

[CBHagman]

34. More on that.

http://www.scotusblog.com/2010/01/todays-orders-53/

Of the cases summarily decided, one is especially noteworthy: the Court has granted the petition in Beard v. Abu-Jamal (08-652), vacating and remanding to the Third Circuit to consider in light of Smith v. Spisak.

And from NPR:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122724100

The justices ordered the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia to take another look at Abu-Jamal's claim that the jury weighing his punishment was given flawed instructions.

The high court acted on Pennsylvania's appeal of the 3rd Circuit ruling following a decision last week in a capital case from Ohio that turned on a similar issue. The 3rd Circuit could order a federal trial court to consider Abu-Jamal's case anew, including other claims he has raised that have yet to be decided.

[tammywammy]

45. I'm anti-death penalty

I've ready extensively about Mumia and believe he's guilty. He should at least be in prison for the rest of his life with no chance of ever getting out.

[classysassy]

46. "Justice in America"

I remember a black soldier telling a group of young black soldiers,that " he went down to the court house looking for justice and that all the found was just us".

[defendandprotect]

58. Mumia is innocent -- witnesses were threatened . . .

Mumia was a journalist exposing corruption -- and framed --

[golfguru]

74. suggest you read post #33 again, carefully

and refute his points one at a time.

[defendandprotect]

77. Suggest you're overly entranced with paulsby --

and you should carefully read what others are saying to you here --

[WriteDown]

78. So you don't respond to any points...

you just keep repeating a mantra or chant? I can't quite tell which one.

[cali]

100. ugh. that's a sick little post, dear.

people can make up their own minds without YOU.

[fascisthunter]

81. I will Miss his voice on the radio

me thinks the powers that be don't like his anti-corporate message much.

[defendandprotect]

92. Democracy Now used to play Mumia . . . even NPR, I think, going way back?

His voice and his humanity -- unbelievable in the circumstances --

Haven't heard him in years because I don't listen to Pacifica/WBAI any more --

Got disconnected from that during the last coup on the station --

I do love Amy Goodman -- but also fail to regularly tune in.

[fascisthunter]

93. I was able to hear him only on College Radio

for about 5 minutes everyday. He is one very intelligent and articulate man.

[proteus_lives]

103. And a murderer.

Don't forget that.

[Imajika]

107. Well, you know, other than the murderer thing...

...a very intelligent and articulate guy.

No one's perfect afterall.

[defendandprotect]

119. How about Volpe sniffing cocaine off his dashboard before sexually abusing Luima?

How about the NJ police simply firing into a van filled with African Americans -- ?

How about Diallo -- and the many, many more killed by racist police officers --

40 shots . . .

Mumia killed no one --

[cali]

129. right. the only murderers and abusers are cops.

[defendandprotect]

118. Mumia is not a murderer -- but as we all know many of our police officers ARE . . .

including some who like to torture and sexually abuse "suspects" --

Don't forget that -- !!!

[proteus_lives]

122. Don't forget that he is a murderer.

The actions of others don't change his.

[defendandprotect]

123. The evidence suggests otherwise . .. including that of a racist "Hanging Judge" . . .

and intimidated witnesses . . .

Corruption of our police enforcement IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THIS CASE --

[proteus_lives]

124. I've read about the case.

He's a murderer.

[defendandprotect]

125. The evidence suggests you are wrong --

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

126. Not the evidence that counts.

[cali]

128. actually the proponderance of the evidence demonstrates his guilt.

[seeinfweggos]

116. nice to finally get some good news this week nt

[defendandprotect]

120. "Beware of those with a strong urge to punish" . . .

especially to punish the innocents like Mumia Abu Jamal --

We've seen police in action -- it can't be hidden -- abuse of protesters you

should presumably care about? Pushing Mace and Pepper into their eyes --

Using netting to round up protesters -- even the elderly and young children!

Prepared to do whatever their fascist leaders tell them to do!

Dressed like Gestapo --


And rampant racism . . . 40 shots to kill a man holding a wallet?

Sniffing cocaine from the dashboard and then Volpe proceeding to sexuall torture

Abner Luima?

It's all out there to show us the brutality and racism and sexual perversions of

our police officers today --

Where are they recrutied from? Prisons?

And that's a brief history of what's going on in "America" -- !!

Disgusting . . .

[rug]

127. Therefore, Xe should be liquidated as well.