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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:18 PM
Original message
Supreme Court declines new 10 Commandments fight
Source: Associated Press

The Supreme Court has declined to get involved in a new dispute over a Ten Commandments display on public property.

The justices on Monday left in place a lower court decision that a Ten Commandments marker in Haskell County, Okla., must go.

The 8-foot-tall stone monument has been on the county courthouse lawn in Stigler, Okla., since 2004. A federal appeals court ruled last year that it amounts to an unconstitutional endorsement of religion by the county commission.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/03/01/national/w071338S74.DTL&tsp=1
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, why would anyone have a problem with that monument?
ALL religions believe in the 10 Commandments - even Catholics!
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Because separation of Church and State should be sacred in itself.
No need for a monument to that!
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. IMO we NEED a monument to that - instead of the 10 commandments
on courthouse lawns, we should have the Bill of Rights on 8' high monuments with brass plates enumerating each one.
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. A big Amen and Hallelujah to that! ;) n/t
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I have a problem with it because it's a graven image.
And one of the commandments specifically prohibits graven images.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. LOL
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donquijoterocket Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. hollywood
One must wonder if this is one of those ten commandments monuments placed as apart of a publicity campaign by Cecil B. De Mille for his 1956 movie?
http://tinyurl.com/ykgqh2r
If so, then the irony is almost too delicious to appreciate considering how the wingnuts, especially the talibangelical arm of wingnuttery feels about hollywierd
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. No this is one first installed in 2004, NOT a DeMille movie ad
If it had been part of the DeMille advertising campaign, the Court may have upheld it on the ground no one objected to it for over 50 years, but given this was first place in 2004 no such history exists.

The Supreme Court has basically ruled that if no one had objected to something like the Ten Commandments for a long period of time, it is hard to see how such a long term monument sanctions one religion over another. Now that position assumes the monument is NOT anti-some other religious belief system (Including Atheism) but the Court has been reluctant to remove old monuments that were viewed as acceptable at the time the monument was made but have since fallen into "disfavor". We are NOT discussing something that clearly offends a group (For example something anti-black for example) but something that on its face is of minor objection today (Such as an old Ten Commandment statute).

This Monument was planted and someone almost immediately objected. That was enough for the trial court and the US Supreme court would have upheld that decision given the recent installation of the Monument. On the other hand the Court have been reluctant to remove older (i.e. 50 Plus years old) such monument when the first objection is made decades after the monument was first installed. I see this split continuing for the next several years until almost all of the Older Commandments had been litigated over and a court ruled in their favor (Some people want the publicity not just the removal of such monuments). On the other hand, more recent installation of such monument will NOT be tolerated on the grounds of Separation of Church and State, especially if someone objects.

The best example of this was the Ten Commandments on the Allegheny Court House outside wall. It was among other such plaques put up over the years (Including the Pledge of Allegiance and a Plague honoring those Pittsburghers that stop the transfer of Arms from Pittsburgh to the South in 1861), None of these plaques had been clean for years (The Plagues had been washed down but the Bronze and never been refinished and cover with polyurethane to make them bright plagues instead of almost black metal sheets on a black stone wall). Someone Challenged the ten Commandment plague and the first thing Pittsburghers asked is where was this Plague? How did it look? People who caught the bus at that intersection did not remember ever seeing them. That is how inconspicuous the plagues were. The Court dismissed the complaint for the all of the Plagues had been installed prior to WWI (With the possible exception of the Pledge of Allegiance which I believe is from the 1950s) and they were NOT on the main entrance to the Allegheny County Courthouse and most people just ignored them and went on their way (Even while waiting for a bus at the bus stop where the Plaques were located). Now the Plaintiff would have had a Case if the County had "Cleaned" up the Plaque by using some Braso but the County had no such plans. Thus the Ten Commandments is still on the Allegheny County Courthouse, as dark as ever.

I give the example of the Allegheny County Courthouse for it is a clear example of the Courts NOT wanting to rewrite history do to the fact our view on State and Church has changed since WWI (When Substantial Due Process became part of the Constitutional law and with it the application of the Bill of Rights to the States under the concept that a Violation of the Bill of Rights is a denial of Equal Protection of the Laws as imposed on the States via the 15th Amendment to the Constitution passed in the post Civil War Era). Prior to the 1950s something like the Ten Commandments was consisted permitted under Federal Law, it is only starting in the 1950s that you start to see a more fundamental view of Separation of Church and State on the State Level (Through you see some of this as early as the 1690s when Pennsylvania was founded with no Colonial Religion, Maryland did it earlier but changed their law to permit only Protestantism during the Colonial Period, thus Pennsylvania is the oldest State with something the comes close to Separation of Church and State. During the period after the Bill of Rights was passed (The 1790s) many southern States ended their State Churches, but this was more to free the States of caring for people on Welfare, which was run by the State Churches, then any real attempt to separate Church and State (Massachusetts kept support for their State Church till 1837, the last state to do so, 1837 was the year of one of the Worse Recession in US History and thus Massachusetts did it for the same reason the South did it in the 1790s, to save money by cutting back on Welfare, which was run by the State Church).

By the next time we had a severe Economic downturn (the 1870s) the States had separated themselves from the Church. The Replacement for the Church was to till the people on relief (Widows and Orphans) was to West and steal lands from the Native Americans (Yes, one of the prices for Separation of Church and State was the Westward Expansion and expulsion of the Native Americans, those people on relief had to go someplace and the States were all willing to send such people Westward out of their States.

Yes, the expansion of the Separation of Church and State can be seen in first periods of long term depression (The 1790s and the 1830s). By the time the Depression of the 1870s, 1890s and 1930s came around Separation was already a fact of life and with the Settlement of the American West Welfare had to be reinvented (Stating in the 1870s in urban areas more to get women NOT to support their husbands during labor Strikes, i.e. Women whose husband went on strike were DENIED assistance for it was found such women supported their Husband's decision to go on Strike, but women without husband, or whose husband had left her, were entitled to welfare benefits. This was the Start of the "Man in the House Rule". The purpose of it in the 1870s was to separate the women from their Husbands so if the women did anything to support their husband being on strike, any and all benefits would be cut. No support for husband meant women with children could get Welfare. This was expanded to rural areas during the 1930s for similar reasons (Mining Communities seem to have it before the 1930s for the same reason as urban areas starting in the 1870s as a way to control workers who wanted to go on strike).

As one person told me, there are cost to EVERYTHING and we tend to ignore the cost of America's Separation of Church and State (Especially the westward expansion, encouraged by widows losing their church based welfare and being told instead to go west and settle some land). The Court has a history of ignoring this history, but it exists and the Court does NOT want to rewrite history more then it has to by ordering older Ten Commandments monuments removed.
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. FOR THE LOVE OF POOP.... this is more important than climate change, health care, and education
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Raston Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Ah, sarcasm. It was carcasm, wasn't it..
I take from the simplicity of your post that you were being sarcastic. Yep, even Catholics are told to do things sometimes. It's those little voices..

Not courthouse voices. Those are more shrill and hard to miss..

- Raston

"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
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Thor_MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Really? I'm kinda doubting that
Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Taoism, Confucianism and countless Tribal/ethnic religions have much interest in the 10 Commandments.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. Self deleted bc I tend to take posts at face value when they don't use the sarcasm emote.
Edited on Tue Mar-02-10 03:05 PM by No Elephants
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. Those monstrosities are placed by idiots who haven't read them
since they were children and don't remember the first 3 tell everybody who isn't Judeo-Christian that their religions are shit.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. You nailed it. Not every religion has the ten commandments telling you who your God
is (Judeo-Christian one) and that you should not bow to any other gods.
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AlecBGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. i must have missed that part
Edited on Mon Mar-01-10 03:25 PM by AlecBGreen
IIRC, the first three say 1) God is number one 2) dont worship idols and 3) dont take Gods name in vain
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Think about how Shitoists, Hindus, and even some of the NA tribes
feel about those.

Really.

They have no place on a public building.

Neither does the one that equates a human woman with property like livestock and houses.

You want those commandments posted, stick them up in your church.

Leave the rest of us alone.
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Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Come on! Just how many Hindus are there in Haskell County, Okla?
My guess is one or two... maby three.








:sarcasm:


It still need to come.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Look around a little more closely
at the businesses they tend to go into.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm glad they declined to hear it.
I would expect the current court to overturn the lower court.
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pdx_prog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Post the rules to dungeons and dragons too.....
that's all made up as well....
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. But NOT 4th edition - that's pure HERESY. nt
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Only Three Commandments; Move, Minor, Standard. nt
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'd rather display the FSM's tablet of Four Useless Parables.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hopping on devil's advocate soapbox.
As someone interested in architecture and the artistic adornment of buildings, what sort of iconography is appropriate to decorate our courthouses?

I'm a stone-cold atheist, but I do recognize the 10 commandments as a long-standing historical example of human laws. As long as it is ART and not maybe inside the courtroom, I think it's fine. Some allowance needs to be made for balance, it would not do to have a Hindu, for instance, entering a courtroom, having encountered the 10 commandments in the lobby, and thinking maybe it would factor into whether or not he'd get a fair trial. But it CAN be presented in an appropriate light, and balance can be achieved.

If you look around courthouses around the country, you'll find hints of law-related artwork built into the buildings at every turn, if you know what you're looking at. Not all of it is old-testament oriented. Why strip away only one type?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Didn't Hamurabi post his laws on a stone pillar?
THAT would be cool to see on a courthouse lawn.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. If you look long and hard enough, I bet you can find it.
Plenty of greek and roman influence as well.

One might sponsor the piece you are suggesting, if for no other reason than to make a point about art, versus an implicit message.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. The 10 Commandments are not "human laws"
A few of them relate to things that are also matters of law, like killing and stealing. But most of them are more like "honor thy father and mother" or "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass."

Hasn't been a society yet, so far as I know, that ever passed laws against ass-coveting.

And even the ones that are more law-like are not laws. Laws include definitions and details of what happens to people who violate them and stuff like that. "Thou shalt not steal" is not a law or part of any legal code.

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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. THE SC9 SHOULD FOCUS ON THIS------------------->
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
15. Isn't it a likeness of Mohammad?
Need I say more?
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SnakeEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
17. Glad they didn't but...
How did the right wing court not take this case? I thought it didn't even take a majority for the SC to hear a case.
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Chef Eric Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. A big, secular "AMEN" to that! nt
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. This christian approves.
Complete separation of church and state helps to protect us all.
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AlecBGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. ditto
:hi:
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. I would have no problem if they were posted this way


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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. D y thnk ppl rlly nd th vwls? (NT)
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avebury Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. Oklahoma Ten Commandment Monument Part 2 - on state capitol grounds
Unfortunately, it won't stop the Oklahoma State Legislature from letting private funds put a Ten Commandment monument on the State Capitol Grounds. They built in a legal defense fund into the bill. What a waste of money to advocate the worship this icon. A monument dedicated to the Bill of Rights would be a more worthy monument.
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scottsoperson Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
30. we should post the ten commandments
when we follow them.
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