JFK tower allowed a kid to direct air traffic

[panzerfaust]

Source: msnbc

NEW YORK - Air-traffic control tower employees at New York's Kennedy Airport are under federal investigation for apparently allowing a school-age child to direct pilots.

The FAA said the child was brought to the tower by its parent, a controller, on Feb. 17. The controller and the controller's supervisor at the time have been relieved of their duties.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35683779/ns/travel-news/

---

Beyond comment.

[lonestarnot]

1. Dive dive dive!

Incoming!

[uh clem]

55. The ATCT....

...(air traffic control tower)at an airport only controls traffic on the ground. Once the planes leave the ground, other controllers take over.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

2. IMO, this is being overblown.

I heard this on the radio this morning. The only problem is the sensationalist reactionary MSM is trying to "make a story"..

#1) Take your kids to work day.
#2) The father was RIGHT THERE with the child spoonfeeding him the radio orders. ("___ clear for takeoff")
#3) The father clearly loves his job and the kid and pilots appeared to enjoy this as well.

I think the best action would be the FAA and union stating there was little danger involved in this event despite any displayed unprofessionalism. While there were no harmful or negative intents which occurred, future such events will be avioded. The controller will not be terminated.

Nothing happened. Some tightwad's got a rulebook crammed so far up their ass they can't think straight.
Risk is jointly determined by likelihood and consequence. The father knew his job and knew risks. I don't think there's too much, if any risk with the father standing there giving takeoff orders. Overall, the recordings are pretty heartwarming.

[closeupready]

3. I agree. What's known as a Slow Newsday.

n/t

[Stargazer09]

7. Sad that such a big deal was made of this

It honestly sounds like something that would make a heartwarming story, instead of sounding like some sort of horrible disaster.

Too bad that the kid now thinks that he/she did something wrong.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

8. Listen to the tapes, they are very cute. I chuckled when I heard them. n/t

[MercutioATC]

9. The kid didn't, but the father did.

I have no doubt that it was completely safe and that the father was telling the child what to say and making sure that's what he said.

I also have no doubt that this was an abysmally stupid thing to do...especially when a web site monitors all JFK frequency chatter.

[Doremus]

17. Agree.

It must be hell to live in perpetual fear like the tight sphincters downthread.

[panzerfaust]

12. Suppose the father had been a surgeon ...

... it would be OK then to allow his kid to come into the operating room and just do some of the relatively unimportant dissecting and closing (which is what 90% of any given surgery is) as long as dad is right there?

How about if dad was a pilot - OK to let the kid do a little of the aviating in an airliner full of passengers?

Perhaps dad is an operator in a nuclear plant - OK to let the kid flip a few switches, as long as dad is right there?

Sorry, I take the view that there are some things that kids should not be doing - cause one thing we all know about kids, is that at any moment they can do something completely unexpected - which is one of their charms.

[John N Morgan]

14. Get over it. On inbound routes to JFK, the directions are more affirmations of what is already

known.

I'm a pilot, it would have been cute.

[panzerfaust]

19. So why have ATC at all?

I'm a pilot too, and it would not have been cute to me.

Sorry, kids do not belong in tower cabs, or cockpits.

[backscatter712]

20. Yeah, it's a slow newsday.

As long as the parent was right there, watching the shop to make sure things were safe, I don't think it's a big deal.

Write him up, make sure he understands the rules, but don't fire him.

[activa8tr]

35. I agree, a slow news day, according to the news folks, anyway..

But in the real world:

Haiti is still suffering. Clinton is doing stuff in South America.

Bunning is holding up appointments. Republicans are acting like azzholes.

The President is revealing plans for the Health Care Reform bill, but the news folks think THIS ATC STORY is important ...

No wonder we have such a stupid voting public.

[Gemini Cat]

38. +1!

[backscatter712]

46. Good point! n/t

[Jkid]

122. DUzy alert?

Republicans are acting like azzholes.

azzholes

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

24. That's absurd.

Surgury requires physical skill and knowlege.
Even with daddy spoonfeeding the knowlege, a child would not have the skillset of a surgeon.

Piloting a plane, having the controls at your fingertips, requires knowlege and trained reaction/recognition.
A child would not have the reactionary skill or the recognition to fly a plane without having logged numerous hours.

The nuclear plant hypothetical you've posted requires more information.
Any kid posseses the skill to push a button and the father can supply the knowledge.
The question is, would a mistake have a likelihood of creating a disaster or problem?
For all we know, the "switch" could be on the coffee-maker or it could be a coolant pump shutdown switch.
Risk-assement would be needed before you let the child act.

The bottom line is this... being told what to say, a kid in an air traffic control tower ONLY needs the skillset of being able to speak clearly and corectly. This is not difficult for most normally developed human beings. Even IF the kid said something wrong, such an incorrect order would have had go uncorrected (remember, the father is standing right there on the microphone with the child) AND that incorrect order would have had to make applicable sense to a pilot in a potentially dangerous positions AND that pilot would have had to inanely followed such an incorrect order. The lilihood of such a string of events is foolish to use when hypeing up emotional reactions.

[panzerfaust]

40. Actually, it is not, and I have seen it happen

decades ago it was not that uncommon for a surgeon to bring his (they were all males in those days) kid into the OR and let him (again, always a him) do some dissecting, hold retractors (which, if held wrong can injure the patient), and quite commonly to close the sub-cutaneous tissues (but not the skin - which is the only thing the patient is going to see). Now, appropriately, such actions would result in suspension of operating privileges, if not loss of medical license - because the true skill of a surgeon is not in cutting and tying but in exercising judgment.

I supervise residents on a daily basis, and, even with me standing right next to them, I have seen them make horrific mistakes too rapidly for me to intervene. And these people are adults, are doctors, and are dedicated professionals learning necessary skills.

"The {true} bottom line is ..." that misunderstood radio transmissions are a major cause of runway incursions, and other errors in flying - and no one's kid should be part of ATC/Aircraft communications.

The worst aviation disaster in history (the Tenerife 747 collision killing 583 people) occurred on the ground, and was, in part, the result of a misinterpreted and unclear clearance from tower to KLM.

Children have no place directly participating in such environments as airplane cockpits, tower cabs, or operating rooms.

We are no longer a hunter-gather society where kids learn their life-skills by tagging along with their parents.

{edit: spelling}

[marew]

42. I'm definitely with you!

Many parents today think whatever their little darling does, no matter how offensive or irresponsible, is cute! I have seen some kids grow up feeling entitled to everything and responsible for nothing. One mother told me her son worked so hard in high school, she was giving him the next year "off" to recuperate. Then he started college the following year but dropped out to "read" books on philosophy. This kid is at least 20 now. Has never had a job, never finished a semester in college, was never even required to mow the lawn or anything else as a teen. I realize this is an extreme case but there is a lot of it going around to lesser degrees.

Within a week of graduating from HS and waiting to go away to college in the fall, I was waiting tables in a greasy spoon restaurant for the summer and, like most people, frequently had part time jobs while in school.


"The thing that impresses me the most about America is they way parents obey their children." - King Edward VIII

[Threedifferentones]

118. Unexpected words can be undone in a second

Presumably, the dad was right there. If the kid says something other that what his dad tells him to, the pilot would say "ummm come again control," not blithely drive a plane into an ocean. And then the dad would take over no harm done.

Now, if a kid slices up instead of down in a surgery, or pushes down instead of up on the controls of a plane, can that be so easily undone?

Your comparisons are not apt, but they are the reason this dude will get fired. Some people can see only rules, so those of us who can think critically must be careful, lest we get treated like fools or criminals for doing something slightly different, yet still safe.

I'll agree the guy made a mistake, a bad judgment call. But, not because he put others in danger, but because he should have known someone would get upset, despite the innocence of the act.

[AzNick]

16. Slap on wrist then back to work.... ATCs are under enough stress

Someone has to let this go.

[Trillo]

26. For thousands of years and centuries, fathers and mothers

passed down their skills to their children. Only in recent times, roughly the last century, has this been overtaken by the schools, and the vast majority of us truly know how successful that effort has been judging by the income levels of the vast majority.

It is no wonder that parents seek to inspire their children, showing them a light, no matter how dim it may seem to the child, at the end of the seemingly interminable school lecture abstractions and testing punishments.

[Renew Deal]

27. How does a pilot know that some kid didn't break into the transmission

To give erroneous orders?

[PacerLJ35]

61. Because that's a ridiculous assertion...

That's why.

[okieinpain]

36. hey you're probably right, but when in doubt. don't. n/t.

[superconnected]

41. I agree, this is way overblown.

[Psephos]

43. Sensible and reasonable post. n/t

[GoddessOfGuinness]

45. +1111111111111111111111

And I can't help wondering if this hasn't happened before...

[Liberal_in_LA]

48. What if father was a surgeon? "hold the knife like this", "cut here".

I'm not so sure this was overblown.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

133. The father wasn't a surgeon. There's no comparison.

[Festivito]

58. Kid did well. Media and Managers did a poor job.

It's good that a kid would be in a place like that, it reminds workers of how important their job is to the young, cute and most of all: the helpless once up in a plane.

I think the managers who ordered an investigation should themselves be investigated.

[Blue_Tires]

4. holy damn -- did no one remember this lesson??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

6. Not very comparable.

Piloting a plane requires SKILL. The only skill required in relaying an order into a microphone is speech.

What's more likely...
a child having the ability and skill to pilot a plane.
a child having the ability to say what you tell him to.

Coparing a kid crashing a commercial airliner to a kid parroting instructions is like comparing mountains to molehills.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

10. No, not touching what you aren't supposed to touch (as in the Aeroflot case) requires being ...

... a trained professional and an adult. The child in the Aeroflot case wasn't "flying" the plane - he was sitting at the controls pretending to fly like his sister did immediately before him. The autopilot was engaged.

Allowing the child to observe is one thing, but putting him in the seat and having them handle ANY aspect of the job is unprofessional and, in my (20 year pilot) opinion, a firing offense.

[okieinpain]

37. funny, but have to agree. pretty dumb. n/t.

[panzerfaust]

18. A major cause of runway incursions is misunderstood communications

- why add somebody's kid to the mix?

As a pilot, and as a passenger, I think the FAA took the correct action in suspending these controllers.

If they fire these fools, I doubt that NATCA (National Air Traffic Controllers Association: The ATC union) is going to be defending them as it reflects poorly upon the professionalism of controllers (especially coming so close to the Teterboro crash which involved out of the building supervisors, girl-friends, and dead cats).

I want ATC to be paying attention to my flight - not to entertaining their kids.

[Missy Vixen]

29. But...but...but... it was cute!

Pwecious must participate in "take your child to work day", even though it's stupid and dangerous.

>I want ATC to be paying attention to my flight - not to entertaining their kids.<

Absolutely. After all, there's never any distractions at all when kids are in a workplace, are there?

:eyes:

[stray cat]

5. it sounded like they let her repeat what her dad told her to say

not acceptable but I doubt she was in the tower independently directing air traffic

[d.gibbs]

11. I don't want no kid in the control tower when I'm flying

and most of the flying public would agree with me

[ensho]

13. true

nt

[John N Morgan]

15. OMG ... the sky is falling!!!! I fear!! I fear!!! People are acting normal!!! Run and hide.

[panzerfaust]

23. If it were "Normal," it would not have been news

There are places where kids should not be taking an active role.

[jberryhill]

31. Air Safety Records Are Not Evidence Of "Normal"

The amazing thing is that so many flights and passengers are handled without incident on a daily basis. The safety of air transportation is an accomplishment that is well beyond what is "normal" for people.

More people will die today walking on their own staircase than flying in a plane. There are reasons for that.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

21. I'm with you....Sadly this person needs to lose his job.

[Festivito]

59. WRONG. But, welcome to DU.

The kid did well. Probably lifted spirits. AND, made people realize why they all need to do good work.

I love the idea of there being a kid up there. What I hate, what scares me is the idea that someone wouldn't want a kid up there.

You could hardly be more wrong.

[valerief]

22. When morons run the country, morons run the control towers. nt

[8 track mind]

25. Steph Miller is going off on this this morning

funny as hell! "What's next dogs? BARK!BARK! Whats that lassie? Descend to 10,000 feet?"

We are laughing our asses off at work!

[change_notfinetuning]

28. As a former controller, IMO, it was beyond stupid, and definitely not cute. If

nothing else, it was a colossal distraction that could only result in lowered vigilance. And guess what is more likely to happen when there are distractions and divided attention? Not every time, but more likely and sometimes. No reason to take chances.

I'll bet some of the people above who thought it was nothing would really get pissed if a baseball player sent his teenage son to bat for him. "How dare they make fun of my game!" Or if a chef at a fancy restaurant had his kid make the food. "How dare they spoil my dinner!" Yet this stunt could have spoiled a lot more than dinner. The controller shouldn't lose his job, but he should be suspended without pay to prevent this idiot or others from doing it in the future.

[jberryhill]

30. "Ever been in a cockpit before?"

[Blue_Tires]

124. still one of the all-time great quotable movies

pick any random line out of the script, and it's awesome

[Iggo]

32. "...by its parent..."

For some reason, I find that funny.

[nyy1998]

33. That might explain why my flights to JFK are so, um, "adventurous"

[heli]

34. They don't let a 21-year-old near a slot machine in Vegas

[Stinky The Clown]

39. This is a serious story, but the hype is overdone in typical media overplay

I bet no one gets fired and no rules will change.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

44. I'm getting tired of this child-worship crap.

Keep your overrated spawn at home and do your job by yourself.

[Sultana]

47. Your statement made me chuckle

:D

[Starbucks Anarchist]

52. Been listening to a lot of George Carlin lately.

:rofl:

[Sultana]

54. +100000 for listening to George Carlin

[catbyte]

49. Right on!

:rofl:

[WorseBeforeBetter]

63. ...

[Pool Hall Ace]

116. I agree. Part of the child's dispatch was inaudible. And the next day,

dad brought an even younger child to "help."

I've never flown before, but I hope to some day. It does not make me feel secure knowing that mom or dad can bring McJaidyn and Madison in to work to babble into the microphone.

[DrCory]

117. +1,000,000!

[Beetwasher]

119. You Will Be Singing A Different Tune When You Are Enslaved, Groveling And Worshipping At The Feet Of

Of my god-like progeny after they become the masters of the universe.

[Socal31]

126. Strangely arousing...

[EFerrari]

131. It's not great for the kids, either. Lose, lose.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

50. Much ado about nothing

From the article, it sounds like the kid was given a few words to speak, but then the parent took the microphone to give details.

Also, I didn't see where any air traffic was involved. It seemed to be all ground traffic, until the pilot was instructed to move on to the next (takeoff) controller.

I mean, it isn't like the kid was allowed to operate a full body scanner.

:hi:

[activa8tr]

51. This is so newsworthy because, the right wingers will claim that our national

security is at risk of having the children of ATC folks take over our ATC towers because Obama is soft on kids!

That's the message to the right wingers, our national security is at stake.

REALLY, in the real world, this major gaffe in judgement on the part of ONE SINGLE ATC guy would be handled and as a personel problem.
Fines, suspensions, even dismissal, under whatever the rules and regulations of the job require, but NOT a national news story on all news networks all morning long.

The M$M is at work again, pounding home the message that we are not safe with Obama in the White House, he's letting children take over the ATC system.

[opihimoimoi]

53. Its a neat way to intro the kid into the adult world..its a way to INSPIRE, Motivate, and create FUN

at the same time...

The GOP is always trying to stifle FUN of others....

[Missy Vixen]

57. The "adult world"

would consist of letting the kid try out a simulator or "pretend" with a closed microphone. Outside of work hours.

Kids do not belong in an adult workplace, let alone an air-traffic tower.

Those rules are there for a reason. If the parent is so concerned about "inspiring, motivating and creating fun", he or she wouldn't be endangering their co-workers and getting themselves in serious hot water with the FAA to create that "fun".

>The GOP is always trying to stifle FUN of others....<

Cool. Why don't we let someone else's underage kid answer the phone the next time you call 911, for instance, or help with a surgical procedure? After all, it's "inspiring, motivating and having FUN," isn't it?

If people can't figure out what's wrong with "taking your kids to work" day, especially in this situation, I wonder about them.

:eyes:

[PacerLJ35]

60. Your comparisons aren't even close...

It's not like this kid was working the radios on his/her own. There are multiple jacks in the tower cab, and there's at least two or more other controllers on the radio at any given time...the tower supervisor's mic can override all the others. There wasn't any danger with the kid doing this. I've let my kids make radio calls before while flying. Not a big deal. By the way, how do you think student pilots learn how to make radio calls? Do they automatically become "trained"? No, they get out there with supervision and talk on the radio...

[Missy Vixen]

123. Oh, so it's okay

despite the fact that the person involved was fired? If it wasn't a firing offense, why are you defending it?

It would seem that there are other opportunities for kids to "learn" how to make radio announcements than the air traffic control of JFK, but hell, I'm just one of those humorless childfree people who's watched what happens to any workplace when people insist on bringing in their kids.

>how do you think student pilots learn how to make radio calls? Do they automatically become "trained"? No, they get out there with supervision and talk on the radio...<

Hmmm. I think that student pilots "learn to make radio calls" when they are learning in the simulator, when they're learning to fly a smaller plane, and most likely in class, NOT when there are jumbo jets full of people arriving and departing from a major American airport.

:eyes:

[PacerLJ35]

130. Thanks for the lesson on flight instruction

I'm an instructor pilot myself...

I'll caveat all that I've said by stating that doing what those controllers did at a high-profile airfield like JFK probably wasn't the smartest thing in the world, but it was hardly an accident waiting to happen.

I have brought my kids to work on many occasions to get tours of the airplanes, etc. No one's died yet.

[panzerfaust]

56. Update: Next day he brought another kid, and did it again

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/03/03/2010-03-03_jfk_air_traffic_controller_let_not_one_but_two_kids_direct_planes_officials.html#ixzz0hA04OEDJ

[guitar man]

62. Eh

Somehow after 8 years of W* running the country, it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal that a kid directed air traffic for a few minutes. Actually, the kid just said what he was told to say....pretty much like Cheney did with W*

:D

but the big difference here is everything came out ok and nobody got hurt

:rofl:

[d.gibbs]

64. JFK air traffic controller let not one, but TWO kids direct planes: officials

Source: NY Daily News

The Kennedy Airport air traffic controller who brought his son to work and let him direct several planes let a second child do the same thing the next day, officials said Wednesday.

An initial investigation by the Federal Aviation Authority revealed that the unidentified controller's second child gave directions to two separate planes on Feb. 17.

The revelations emerged a day after the controller and his supervisor were suspended over the Feb. 16 incident.

On that day, the controller's young son made a total of five transmissions to pilots operating four separate aircrafts.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/03/03/2010-03-03_jfk_air_traffic_controller_let_not_one_but_two_kids_direct_planes_officials.html

[Darth_Kitten]

65. Don't parents ever say "no" anymore?

:shrug:

[Demeter]

76. Not That I've Noticed. I'm the "Mean Mommy"

and my kids are in their 20's. It's been going on for a long time....

[xultar]

77. I hate to say it but this sounids like it was the parents idea.

[Mz Pip]

66. I can't imagine what the pilots must have thought

when they heard, "This is Billy, it's okay to turn right now. Giggle giggle." Coming through their headsets.

People are just nuts.

[hedgehog]

67. I heard the tapes. it sounded like a typical "bring your kid to

work" exercise. The pilots seemed to be enjoying themselves, and the kids were ultra-serious. If anything, the controllers were probably double careful with the kids there. Maybe this falls into the category of "don't do this again, ever", but I can't see raking anyone over the coals over this. Now, if the kids had been actually flying the planes...

[lobodons]

82. Exactly what I have been thinking all day

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[kristopher]

92. +1

[jberryhill]

97. Pilots are no guide - Pilots are pretty much insane in the first place /nt

[PacerLJ35]

98. Why would you say that?

[jberryhill]

99. They're nuts

Anyone who believes that a large metal machine is going to rise up into the air and go places - and thinks they are going to control such a thing - has a screw loose.

[PacerLJ35]

112. I'm a pilot

It's called aerodynamics and physics. Look it up.

[jberryhill]

114. Keep going, you'll get to to "sarcasm" in that there book eventually /nt

[PacerLJ35]

120. You just don't ever know around here...

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if there were DUers out there that actually thought that!

[Mind_your_head]

109. +2

the poutrage is misplaced in this instance.

[naaman fletcher]

68. who cares..

they didn't direct the planes, they repeated isntructions given to them.

[paulsby]

113. i have to agree. much ado about (little or ) nothing

of COURSE it was a violation of reg's and stuff like that.

but there was no danger. the kids merely made the transmissions that the controllers told them to.

everybody probably got a big kick out of it

[Mr. Sparkle]

69. I just heard the recordings of the transmissions, it really was hameless stuff.

The FAA should really lighten up, a slap on the wrist at best.

He told 2 planes "clear for takeoff" and another 2 to "contact departure". The pilots took it in good humour.

[revolution breeze]

75. And who knows, maybe the child now has an interest

in aviation they didn't have before. That is what these "Take Your Child to Work" days are supposed to be about, letting your child into your life away from home, letting them see what you do, spark an interest in the world!

[nashville_brook]

70. heard the recordings -- this is a non-story

[revolution breeze]

73. But you know we can't rest

until someone is prosecuted. Sometimes I feel we are just too uptight.

[bulloney]

79. And you just know that the MSM will somehow make this into Obama's fault.

[groundloop]

71. IMHO this is being overblow to some degree

First off, yes the guy used bad judgement bringing his kids into a control tower.

HOWEVER, from all I've been able to find out the kids were coached by their dad on exactly what to say, and it was only "flight xxxx cleared for takeoff". Then the dad/controller got back on the radio and gave the rest of the more complicated instructions - "after departure left turn heading 140, climb and maintain 09 thousand feet, contact departure on 126.75 after BRAVO etc. etc."

Should he have done that - NO.
Was safety compromised - I don't believe so.

(I have a commercial pilots license and I can say I've talked to a handful of controllers on the radio who didn't do as good a job as those kids, going by the audio I heard of them)

[IADEMO2004]

72. Last thing we need is another unemployed father.

No tv for a month and get to work. I will bet he will be by the book from now on.

[CreekDog]

74. The only solution is to fire someone

who knows how to do a job that few qualified to do. :eyes:

[high density]

78. OMG, I am so ascared!!!

First terrorists, now kids in the ATC towers!!!! we r doomed!!!!

[djp2]

91. agree, blown way out of proportion

Big Whoop..who cares!

[npk]

80. This is another example of the corporate media at work

Lets see does the story involve a child, check. Does the story involve a major government entity, check. Does the story involve a vulnerable target, in this case airplanes, check. So they take the story and completely blow it out of proportion. A professional air traffic controller takes his kid to work and allows him to say a couple things to planes that are on the ground, all the while he is watching his kid, and instructing him what to say. Basically the father is allowing his son to say what he would have said to begin with. It's not like the father brought his kid to work, sat him down in front of a monitor, and then took a two hour lunch break while his son landed planes. Only in America could this be a news story. Sad really. What's next firing all the cops that have allowed children to sound the siren and play with the blue lights. Oh nos can't do that. This is America 2010 where we are not smart enough to think for ourselves.

[2Design]

81. not a big deal - the adult actually gave the clearance to the planes n/t

[sakabatou]

83. WTF?!

[ConcernedCanuk]

84. Makes one wonder if kids are guiding them drones across the pond

.
.
.

:freak:

[slutticus]

85. *sigh*

blown out of proportion. completely and utterly.

[DemoTex]

86. Anyone condoning this is way off base

Imagine the shit-storm if another American Flight 587 accident (11/12/2001: JFK departure in clear weather that crashed in Belle Harbor in Queens) happened while this crap was going on.

As an airline captain with 17,000+ accident-free hours and as an ALPA-trained airline accident investigator, I am appalled by both the cavalier replies from pilots on the tape and some responses here on DU.

Consider this scenario:

ATC (child's voice): Global 123, cleared for takeoff runway 22L.

Global 123: Cleared for takeoff. Ha ha!

Airport emergency crew: ROLL THE TRUCKS! Collision at 22L and taxiway BRAVO. Boeing 737 and Airbus A-330.

Now, imagine that the child had a hand-held ICOM giving clearances from a backyard across the bay. That's why pilots and ATCers must always be on alert for anything that doesn't sound right. The frequencies are so totally not secure, as it is. Why fuck with the situation with a stunt like this?

In my opinion, this is right up there with the USS Greeneville submarine, entertaining some GOP contributers, sinking a Japanese fishing vessel on 2/9/2001. The air traffic controllers at JFK were just lucky no aircraft as much as blew a tire. Or, maybe not. They were obviously too stupid to realize the tapes would get 'em. The controller and tower chief, at a minimum, are toast.

[customerserviceguy]

93. You're absolutely right

If someone wanted to make a fake tape of this for the kid, with another controller acting as a "pilot" while EVERYBODY involved was all on a coffee or lunch break, this MIGHT be a forgivable incident. But with live radio and communications with real planes, it crossed the boundary from cute stunt to potentially dangerous situation.

I guess the people who fly aircraft and the people who (usually) direct them are so damned good at it that they make it look like child's play to people who have no idea what goes on in a control tower. I was a guest in the tower at NAS Pensacola about five years ago, and it filled me with awe at what they do.

[PacerLJ35]

101. If an adult told a child to say "cleared for takeoff" on the radio, then how does that contribute?

Honestly, I've taken my kids flying with me and let them talk on the radio before...we didn't spiral into the ground. I've even let them manipulate the controls. Having a kid get on the radio and say "contact departure" isn't going to cause mass chaos...why? Because that's exactly what the adult (sitting there with the child) would have said too.

Now, given how the FAA is, I don't think I would have let my kids work the radios at JFK, but seriously...how does a child talking on the radio have anything to do with airplanes blowing tires? Blown tires are typically either the flight crew's fault or material failure. And from what I've seen, tower trainees are a hell of a lot more dangerous than a kid being prompted to say something on the radio...I don't know how many times I've heard the tower chief step in on a junior controller telling me to "disregard..." and giving me new clearances that didn't put me beak to beak with another airplane.

[Parche]

104. I am with you

My neighbor who was the chief of the tower here in PDX used to take me up to visit the radar room and tower when I was a kid, but i never would think of getting on the radio,or directing traffic when i was that young, not that i couldnt do a good job, as i have loved airplanes and airlines all my life...

"Northwest 95 heavy, climb and maintain 190, turn heading 240 direct hemlo"
"Clipper 123 heavy, descend and maintain 2500, cross sauvie at 3000, cleared ILS runway 10R"
:hi:

[dugaresa]

121. I agree, this isn't cute in any way shape or form

[Missy Vixen]

127. I was hoping you'd comment

If it's possible to be a pilot fangirl, I am. Even with a fear of flying.

It is hard for me to believe that any pilot in a post 9/11 world would consider an unfamiliar voice (especially a child's,) over an airport frequency at a major American airport not a reason to start asking questions at the least.

[PacerLJ35]

129. Yes, that child could be an al Qaeda operative...

[Missy Vixen]

132. Did you read DemoTex' comment?

Considering the fact that we've had issues here with teens, laser pointers and the approach to Sea-Tac, it's not as farfetched as you might think.

[PacerLJ35]

134. I think two well-trained and well-educated pilots could figure it out...

[panzerfaust]

135. DemoTex: Glad you are still here!

The day I posted this had to fly to the local international airport.

Approach has a new controller who has the "Elmer Fudd" speech impediment (should be disqualifying?), also on freq were several ab initio Japanese trainees whose mastery of English was not firm - anyone want to add a kid to this mix?

It was beyond total stupidity on the part of ATC.

The DU posters who take the "it was just harmless fun, kid at work" tack, cannot possibly have any conception of the difficulty in understanding spoken radio transmissions in a busy cockpit, nor do they seem able to appreciate how quickly things can go wrong, nor do they seem aware of the horror that can result from a simple misunderstood radio call.

Teneriffe ...

[LisaM]

87. Aren't air traffic control towers restricted space?

This doesn't seem like a place you'd bring your kids in general, which probably compromised safety more than having a kid repeat an instruction. But I thought those towers were pretty closed off except to exempt personnel.

[PacerLJ35]

102. Restricted, but visitors can be escorted into the tower cab...

Go to your local controlled airfield and ask about a tour of the tower, sometimes they'll give you one. It's pretty cool.

[Paladin]

88. Fire Him.

I know a number of controllers, and none of them would ever think of committing this sort of irresponsible behavior. Need to bring your kids to the flight tower? Fine---bring along some comic books, some videos and some snacks and park them in a safe, unobtrusive corner. Those of you who are blowing off these incidents are out of your minds.,....

[droidamus2]

89. Question?

I have seen this reported online and on the TV and both reports have said it was 'a child' or 'a kid' that was allowed to do this but none of them actually stated how old the 'kid' was. Has anybody read what age the people involved are? I don't have a real problem with what went on but I could see maybe putting a reprimand of some kind on their records and letting them and everybody else know that this is not allowed. Back to the 'child' question, these overblown reports do their best to make it sound like some little kid was 'controlling air traffic' but gee from my experience when a plane is getting ready to take off it not only isn't in the air it comes to a stop before it is given clearance to take off so basically the young person is talking to a pilot in a stationary plane on the tarmac. Again maybe not the smartest thing the father could have done as an employee but it is being blown way out of proportion.

[nightrain]

90. I'm reminded of a Seinfeld episode in which George was confronted by his boss

about screwing the ?janitor woman on the desk and he says, "Was that wrong?"

[FailureToCommunicate]

94. We let GHW Bush bring HIS son to work... what could go wrong?

[my2sense]

95. All jobs are not appropriate for

bring your child to work day. This is one of them.

[bluevoter4life]

96. Let me throw in my opinion from the other side of the mic

I am an air traffic controller in training (CTI student). Based on what I know, every position in an air traffic facility has what's known as a "jackbox". The jackbox has 2 outlets, so one controller does not have to unplug in order for the other to relieve him. The father was probably plugged in so in the event something happened, he can quickly take over and control the situation. The controller asked for permission and the supervisor gave it. It should be a non-issue. Was it a smart thing to do? NO. However, I think a 2 week suspension and a post-it on his record should be all he needs to learn his lesson. It sucks, because the FAA has a huge shortage of controllers and he is one of the better controllers in that tower. Just my 2 cents.

[PacerLJ35]

103. It was only a bad idea because of the prominence of JFK and the FAA's typically strict rule

I agree...I'm quite sure the actual controller was right there, on headset, with a mic in hand to make any corrections. And contrary to what some posters have stated, having a kid clear airplanes to contact departure, etc, would NOT have resulted in another AA587 (which was caused by rapid rudder control reversals by the pilot, exceeding the design limit of the vertical stabilizer...it was not caused by a controller), nor would it have been responsible for airplanes blowing tires, etc. If there had been an emergency, the controller was on headset, ready to talk if needed...and to keep the kid quiet all he had to do was pull the headset of of the child.

[bluevoter4life]

106. That's exactly it

If this had occurred at Podunk Municipal in Bumfuck, NE, this would have never made the news. By the time any arrivals contact the tower, the aircraft have already been sequenced by Approach, and the kid would simply be giving the commands while his father did all of the actual work. Same applies to departures. How many pilots do we have on DU (whether commercial or pilot) have let their kids make a turn or two or turn a dial? You certainly wouldn't get up to mingle in the cabin while he does this, you'd just be watching him to make sure nothing goes wrong, and be ready to step in as soon as it does. The FAA and the media have overreacted as always and have made a mountain out of a molehill.

[panzerfaust]

136. Dear ATC Trainee

It is not a "non-issue" for those of us on the "other side" of your mic.

Please read DemoTex's comment above, if you have not.

If I heard a child on freq, my first thought would be that it is some kids with a hand-held (yes, this has happened) and I would query the ATC faculity, and it would have gone like this:

JFK Kiddie "AC cleared for takeoff."
AC "Ummm. JFK there seems to be a child on freq."
JFK "Roger that AC. It's my kid and I'm letting him/her do the talking for me."
AC "JFK AC holding in position. Confirm takeoff clearance AC runway XXX"
JFK "Ah...Roger. Ah, AC is cleared for immediate takeoff runway XXX. Airbus now mile and a half final."
AC "AC cleared takeoff runway XXX. Rolling."
... a bit later ...
JFK "AC Contact departure now."
AC "WILCO Departure. You might wanna file an ASRS."
JFK "Ummmm. Ah, this isn't gonna be a deal is it?"
AC "Roger. You're entertaining your kid, not doing your job. AC Switching."

[Kablooie]

100. OMG! They are using child labor!

The swine!

Is that what we are talking about? ... Or something else?

[TroubleMan]

105. You ever been in a cockpit before?

[guitar man]

111. Ever seen a grown man naked?

:rofl:

[October]

128. Do you like Gladiator movies?

[Nye Bevan]

107. Kids should not be in the control tower. Ever.

I *hate* it when my fellow workers bring their little brats into the office. Just what I need when I am trying to work, annoying, yelling kids running around the place while I am trying to concentrate. And of course all of the secretaries run over to ooh and aah over how cute the little monsters are. But for me, it is just an annoyance. In a control tower this kind of distraction could be deadly. I'm actually a little jealous of air traffic controllers, now that kids will obviously be banned from their workplace.

[PacerLJ35]

108. I've been on tours of control towers before as a kid

I've brought my own child to work before, and taken them to tour the airplanes and other facilities. It's a little different when you're giving them a tour versus just letting them sit around bored.

[Mind_your_head]

110. Secretary? You have a "secretary"?!?!?

NOBODY has a secretary anymore. What era/planet do you live on?

[Nye Bevan]

125. There are no secretaries anymore?

979,000 Google hits would suggest otherwise.

[raccoon]

115. That controller's ass should be fired. Obviously he has poor judgment. nt