CA police help slow runaway (94 mph) Toyota Prius to stop

[Bozita]

Source: AP

CA police help slow runaway Toyota Prius to stop
(AP) – 47 minutes ago


EL CAJON, Calif. — The California Highway Patrol says an officer helped slow a runaway Toyota Prius from 94 mph to a safe stop after the accelerator got stuck.

The CHP says driver James Sikes called 911 Monday after he found he could not control his car on Interstate 8 in San Diego County.

A patrol car pulled alongside, and officers told Sikes over a loudspeaker to use the brakes and emergency brake.

After slowing to about 50 mph, Sikes felt safe enough to turn off the engine and coast to a halt.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gc_pIFqke7WxQovY3MnhcyIYiLgwD9EAR59O0

[jody]

1. Does CA allow Toyota to use pre-dispute binding arbitration clauses with car sales? n/t

[ORDagnabbit]

2. color me confused why couldnt the guy use his brakes and turn the engine off without calling 911?

[WileEcoyote]

19. Ditto that

unless the computer didn't allow him to shut down the engine.

Another way to stop the car (really desperate way) is to downshift into a gear that red lines the engine so bad it explodes. Kind of dramatic but what the heck?

[Abacus]

22. In another story, he said he was standing on his brakes and only slowed it to 80s

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978091415

[Patchuli]

24. It is not you

the guy was stooooooooooooooooooopit. :dunce:

[Liberty Belle]

28. He tried both those things - they didn't work, as CHP attests. See my story:

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/2897

[apnu]

163. Damn that's not the sign of a mechanical failure, still there was an element of operator error.

The guy panicked, which I get. But the story makes no mention of him moving to the breakdown lane (I presume there is one on that highway) and putting the car in neutral. Which is the first thing I would have done. It is what I was taught in driver's ed. If your car is out of control, or your vision is obscured (say the hood pops up), get the car in neutral, put on the flashers, and got away from the traffic flow. That would have solved his fear of being hit or hitting other cars so he could have then applied the emergency break and put the car in neutral.

He could have done those things, but he didn't, so I do not think his driving skills are very good.

Still, Toyota has many questions to answer here. I don't think this is a mechanical issue as Toyota claims. The fact that he couldn't turn the car off after he got it under control and stopped has nothing to do with faulty pedals and floor mats. They guy actually reached down and pulled the pedal up, and checked the floor mat.

Also the story says that he's going along at 94 and he's being passed by other cars?!?!? WTF is going on on CA highways?!?!

[CreekDog]

248. Prius controls are computer connected, you are acting like his transmission lever is mechanical

it's not.

give the guy a break. how many times and in how many ways do people have to tell you what actually happened before you stop saying something else happened?

[apnu]

281. I know the Prius is computer controlled. I said this isn't a mechanical issue in my subject.

I was merely pointing out that the article makes no mention of the breakdown lane found on highways. So either the reporter didn't cover that or the guy didn't mention that or he didn't think about it when he was panicking as I said I understood his panic.

I don't see how it could be a mechanical issue if he's pulling up on the pedal and the car is still accelerating. I think Toyota has a software glitch in the Prius and they aren't aware of it, or their own hubris is preventing them from considering a software failure.

With the Prius, Toyota is now in a position where they must bridge the car engineering world and the software vendor world. They are Toyota AND Microsoft at the same time. They are going to learn that when the car drives off the lot that, is dependent on software they wrote, Toyota's responsibility doesn't end when the car leaves the dealership. Microsoft, Cisco and many other software vendors are held accountable for their shoddy code, and so to will Toyota. This is a new vista for them and the learning curve is going to be steep as the bodies start to pile up.

[Liberty Belle]

46. There's a theory that the problem is computer boards, not just accelerators.

This guy says he tried several times to turn off the car and it wouldn't go off until he hit an uphill stretch and it slowed down somewhat, and then only after he finally put it into neutral.

I've driven that stretch of road. There are a lot of speeders especially the truckers who drive like maniacs. It's very plausible that if he was going 80 they'd be passing him by. It's happened to me.

94 was the peak speed, but the road winds and moves up and downhill, so it wasn't that high the whole time.

[chrisa]

142. I would imagine brakes don't work when.

You're going 80 mph and accelerating full speed. What he should have done is put it into neutral, but he probably panicked.

[CreekDog]

249. Do you think this little lever is physically connected to the transmission?

or is it connected to the computer?

sheesh.

[harun]

160. RTFA, it doesn't work. It isn't enough to stop it at that high of RPM.

[Skink]

3. then he was issued a speeding ticket.

[w4rma]

4. Wtf is wrong with Toyota? They should have fixed this by now instead of denying the problem. (nt)

[jody]

7. If the problem is a software glitch it could be very difficult to replicate in a lab. Doesn't

absolve Toyota, that's just the way software testing is.

[w4rma]

8. It's the way software testing is when upper management doesn't take the amount and quality of labor

required seriously. Honestly, an efficient and skilled team of programmers could have already been hired and fixed this problem by now if upper management would spend the resources.

[pipoman]

36. Exactly, you don't think that

Toyota, the NTSB, insurance companies, and many other interested parties aren't and haven't been investigating this problem? Don't you find it a bit unbelievable that none of these scientists have been able to recreate this issue....It is AudiII...operator error, just like it was with Audi.

[Bearware]

121. w4rma is right

If you do not have seriously experienced programmers that understand realtime multi-threaded system programming, you are going to get nowhere.

I have seen the above circus on a much smaller scale many times. Nothing ever got done until they finally let the right people go to work with access to everything. No you cannot open a can of programmers or outsource it to 1000 programmers in India. A handful of the right people (who can work with peers) could probably find one to several bugs in some weeks AFTER they are given full access to the accident data, system design data and the code. You might be able to download the software changes to each affected car without changing any hardware or screwing with gas pedals and floor rugs.

I wonder how many hundreds of thousands to low millions of dollars Toyota is going to save on programmer salaries for each billion they burn up.

I suspect Toyota is going to have to do a major rewrite of big chunks of their software because they did not pay for competent people
the first time around.

[pipoman]

126. Or....

like the Audi incident of the 1980's this is attributable only to operator error in the end. The Audi issue was determined that the only way the problem could occur was if both the speed control and brakes malfunctioned simultaneously which was determined to be beyond likely, in fact impossible. If this exact type of phenomenon was occurring 25 years ago, it seems more plausible to me that it is still happening....just too many similarities to overlook. And you can throw all the money in the world at it looking for mechanical causes, if there are no mechanical causes, you will never find a mechanical cause.

[sendero]

146. There is virtually..

... no comparison to the Audi issue and this. The Audi issue were mostly or all low speed from stop situations that happened in an instant. With Toyota, there are several documented cases and hundreds of reported cases of long term unintended acceleration.

Blaming this on stuck pedals (any fool can pull the pedal back with his foot) or even more ludicrously floor mats (have had that happen, reached down and pulled the mat out of the way) is a joke and Toyota has already admitted that fixing the pedals might not solve "all of the problems".

This is almost definitely a software issue, it has looked that way from the very beginning and Toyota is playing a dangerous game trying to deflect it on to some absurd mechanical failure.

BTW, I drive a Toyota (not one of the vehicles involved) and I have no intention of getting rid of it, it's a good car.

[pipoman]

189. There are plenty of very smart people who are not

employed by Toyota investigating this who would, in fact, profit handsomely if they could determine the cause. Time will tell but I am not convinced today that it isn't highly probable that this is operator error. I don't care weather it is or isn't, just speculating on what the final determination will be...and we will get a final determination at some future time.

[CoffeeCat]

261. How could operator error...

...cause a car to accelerate on its own and the brakes to simultaneously fail for a prolonged
period of time and many miles?

What errors would a driver make to cause those things to happen?

[pipoman]

272. Panic...what could happen mechanically to cause those things to occur?

It is easier for people to claim mechanical failure because the mechanics of, especially newer cars, are so far beyond the understanding of most people. What I am seeing from actual engineers and scientists who understand the workings of these cars is that they can't find any mechanical reason for these incidents. It is common, once mechanical failure is ruled out, that human failure is the cause. Machines act only within certain boundaries of performance, they cannot stray beyond their boundaries, humans OTOH can and do act outside of their boundaries all the time. I am not saying this is the case, and I hope something mechanical is found soon just for the simplicity of the issue, I am not believing that will be the case though. It is interesting to study the 1980's Audi issues, several of the humans involved were quite upstanding.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

153. Re: Audi 5000s

First, the disclaimers: I do not work now, nor have I ever worked, for Audi or Toyota. I have never owned an Audi or a Toyota. I've never worked on Audis or Toyotas beyond changing wiper blades, if that much. Now that we've got that out of the way....

My recollection of early 80s Audis is fuzzy, but I do not think comparing 2010 Toyotas to them is valid. Back then, the manufacturers were converting from carburetors to fuel injection. If those Audis had injection, it would be up to snuff for that era, but not up to 2010 standards. Injection control now is more evolved than injection control then, simply due to increased processor power in 2010 engine control modules compared to what was available 25 years ago. Further, wouldn't the Audi 5000 have a cable or linkage between the accelerator and the carburetor or injector throttle body? I think all the affected Toyotas are drive-by-wire, are they not?

I'm not taking sides. I'm just saying that the systems in the two lines of cars are so different that referring to one to discuss the other might not be legitimate.

Running the risk of ageism, I would like to know what is the youngest Toyota driver to have experienced a runaway. I'm just asking; that's all.

[pipoman]

188. And I'm not saying it is the case either, only that it is plausable to me

that it might be. IIRC Audis were all ';stepped on the gas instead of the brake' issues. I don't have a dog in this fight either. I do find it increasingly unbelievable that all the king's horses and all the king's men can't replicate this issue nor pinpoint a definitive cause. Because of this I believe that the driver error possibility is still in play.

[CreekDog]

250. those weren't drive by wire systems

if the computer goes cuckoo, multiple problems are more likely not more *unlikely*.

[pipoman]

258. Only if all vehicle functions source from the same onboard computer,

then, if that is the case, what is the likelihood that of the hundreds of functions this master computer must control, that the acceleration/fuel system and the brakes go haywire rather than transmission and windshield wipers. I really don't know, but I am once bitten twice shy about these types of media hyped, congressional/senate hearing, diversion to, say unemployment, economy and mostly HCR.

[CreekDog]

259. the guy was standing on the brake pedal with CHP reporting they smelled his brakes burning

but go ahead and doubt. from your keyboard, the truth is much clearer. :eyes:

1) Using the brakes
"Officer Neibert said he not only could smell the brakes from the Prius but also witnessed Sikes physically lifting his body to apply pressure on the brakes." http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/Runaway-Priu...

[pipoman]

271. And this is a Prius,

simply not buying the driver's version until engineers test and recreate the issue with his car, it should be relatively simple to recreate. Again, time will tell...

[CreekDog]

275. you aren't buying the driver's or the chp witness's version

until the problem is "recreated".

beyond a shadow of a doubt huh?

[pipoman]

283. Why not?

I know first hand from 20 years of talking to witnesses, including perhaps hundreds of LEOs, how unreliable they are, compared to the reliability of physical evidence. Without recreation, this problem can't be fixed, you realize this right?

[pipoman]

37. Can't fix what ain't broke..n/t

[AllentownJake]

5. In other news

GM and Ford announced they have a new PSA commercial thanking brave police officers for helping to stop the epidemic of runaway Toyotas.

[scentopine]

13. lol!

[SlingBlade]

6. Sikes felt safe enough to turn off the engine.... WTF is this ?

He didn't think of it before ?

[flyingfysh]

9. the procedure to turn off the engine is not obvious

You have to hold down the start button for 3 seconds; you only find that out by reading the manual.

How many people in this situation have read the manual or remember that page?

[emsimon33]

112. My understanding...after the fact...was 5 seconds

[sylveste]

179. is it a different procedure

"You have to hold down the start button for 3 seconds; you only find that out by reading the manual.

How many people in this situation have read the manual or remember that page?"



so how does one shut the car off in a normal situation? i assume it's the same procedure right. i guess i dont understand why you wouldn't know how to shut your car off if you've done it hundreds of times prior.

[safeinOhio]

11. that would lock up the steering wheel.

no fun at 94 mph

[GETPLANING]

27. No it wouldn't

The steering column will only lock when the key is removed

[Paulie]

32. If he has SmartKey, there is no key to remove

And there isn't a steering wheel lock on the Prius. Since the key is a fob, and plugs into the dash, there isn't a mechanical connection to engage a lock.

[emsimon33]

113. You don't need the "key" to plug into the dash. You just need the

"key" on your person or in the car somewhere near you. The car starts and stops with the push of a button if the "key is in the vicinity.

[Kolesar]

134. I test drove a Prius:the salesman put the key-cartridge into the socket on the dash first

He forgot the sequence and had to remove and insert the cartridge several times before the start button worked. It reminded me of a Nintendo game cartridge.

I think there are other cars where you only have to have the cartridge "on you" and the car will start and run.

(I bought a car with a gold bowtie instead, $16,300, with tax and title. Been getting 31 mpg this winter)

[tavalon]

137. My boyfriend has a prius

The key fob needs to be on your person. They put a place on the dash so that people could do something recognizable if they wanted to. Once you have the fob on your person, the doors unlock of their own accord and you need only press a button on the dash to start the car.

[Paulie]

140. That's the SmartKey, an optional feature.

Plus, you can turn off SmartKey with a button under the dash, which then requires you to put the fob in the slot. Still doesn't change the fact that there is no steering wheel lock.

[emsimon33]

266. Guess I should have read the manual!

I am so happy with the keyless situation that I didn't look for any other options.

[CreekDog]

251. i love all the people tsk tsk-ing this guy

when they clearly haven't been inside a Prius.

[SlingBlade]

41. Not necessarily, Putting the ignition in accessory position

would not lock the wheel. But I get your point, One click to far, Lock.

[One_Life_To_Give]

178. Usually not possible unless in Park

Steering wheel lock typically has features to prevent inadvertently locking the steering wheel while in motion. Such as ethe key cannot be removed until the vehicle transmission has been placed in Park.

[SlingBlade]

274. But he did JUST THAT ,,,,, Remember ..

He claims that his car was outta control, While reaching high speeds he
grabbed his cell phone and made a 9/11 call which involved the police
Then after slowing a bit on a steep upgrade he turned the motor off.

Now, Imagine he did the reverse. First he turns the motor off, Then makes the call.


This whole story has been setting off my BullShit detector from day one.

I WONDER WHY ?

[LaserSpot]

12. Wrong thing to do

He may have been worried that turning the key would lock his steering wheel and cause the car to veer out of control. I don't think this would happen if he left it in D, but he would at least lose power brakes and steering.

The best thing to do would be to put it in neutral. Ignore the racing engine, it has a speed limiter to prevent damage. Do not turn the key! If you turn it too far, you could lock your steering wheel and crash. I'm sure it's difficult to make the right decision when you're in a run-away car.

[DBoon]

15. things like this make me miss my old VW bug

Of course, runaway acceleration was the last thing you had to worry about

[Hepburn]

167. No shit....I had a '65 Bug! n/t

[PJPhreak]

176. Trust and Believe,

My Next Set of wheels will be this...



No Computer Controlled ANYTHING!

Parts...No problem Ever!

Ease of Maintenance and Repair...No Problem,They even make an "Idiot's Guide to keepin yer VW Alive" Great Book!

Cool factor and Looks...All the Time!

Cost...No more than the average three year old Ecno-Shitbox...Appox $7000-10,000

To be able to drive an ATV with License Plates and Insurance....Priceless

[ThomThom]

23. Yes why wouldn't the police tell him to put it in neutral?

Why isn't that being told on the news? So people know if this happens put it neutral, coast to a stop and then turn the engine off? Seems like common sense to me, but no one seems to know this.

[Liberty Belle]

30. They did - it only slowed it to 55 mph

[greyl]

35. No, according to your version of the story, it slowed to 55 after applying brakes. nt

[DebbieCDC]

31. A Prius doesn't have a standard "key" that turns

Replying to Post #12

[Liberty Belle]

47. Yes, he was afraid of that and losing control where there were steep ravines

where lots of drivers have lost their lives.

[elocs]

132. Wow! Put it in neutral! Who would have ever thunk of that?

Well I suppose anyone who has a Toyota that has had these problems in the past months should have been aware that this was the most logical thing to do. Of course panicking and calling 911 is a lot more exciting.

[Historic NY]

17. too busy talking on cell phone....

people have completely forgotten the common sense lessons of driving & owning a car. There was a time when one read their new car manual. How about shifting into neutral. You can do that.

[SlingBlade]

40. K&R That one.

[boston bean]

133. why should anyone have to shift into neutral while driving on the highway

All the people saying that are implying this problem is the drivers fault.

Well.... the freakin car shouldn't be accelerating down the highway at high speeds unless you are the one making it do it.

Plus, you shouldn't have to put your car in neutral while driving down the highway.

Plus, it has been reported numerous time neutral does not always work.

[One_Life_To_Give]

161. You never broke a throttle return spring?

Sure sounds like poorly trained drivers to me.
As an emergency procedure one should always be trained and prepared for things such as Brake Fade/sticking, lose of power steering, brakes, stuck throttle etc. While not normal these all have a statistical probability of happening.

[704wipes]

195. well NO, but as an alternative to wrecking --put it in NEUTRAL

No, No one should HAVE to do this but it makes more sense and is easier to do than making a fucking cell call to 911.
It is a procedure that could solve the problem at hand. geeeez.

[RobinA]

280. This Baffles Me

The whole "car out of control racing down the highway so pick up the cell phone" phenomenon just baffles me. Maybe because I am middle-aged and therefore a fogey, but "Pick up the cell phone" is not my first response to every situation, especially when life and limb are threatened. I'm more of a "where the hell's the cell phone" when it starts ringing kinda gal. I'd be in the Pacific Ocean before I dug the damn phone out of my purse.

[OnyxCollie]

20. IIRC, the woman who testified before Congress about her runaway Lexus

said the engine was still running with the key turned off.

[SlingBlade]

39. That's a hard nut to crack. But I was run down by a women who

later told police that she hit the brakes as hard as she could but the car just
kept going faster and faster.

Wadaya think ? Faulty Brake peddle or ......

[Maine-ah]

144. had an old Dodge Omni do that

back in HS my boyfriend had an Omni. We were on our way back from senior skip day and were having some car trouble. So, we pulled into his Dad's work place. Pulled the key, and it was still running. Then lifted the hood and pulled spark plugs. It was still running after that. I don't even remember now what they finally did to get it to shut down.

[Hepburn]

168. OMFG...

...:wow:

I had not heard this before!

[Liberty Belle]

29. He was in traffic with trucks around and behind....would you turn off your

car at 90+ with a trucker on your tail? When he finally tried it, it took several efforts. So a new Q for Toyota: Why the fuck doesn't the car turn off on the FIRST try?

[SlingBlade]

38. A quick flip of the wrist and wallah. Crisis over.

Situational awareness ALWAYS folks, It saves lives.

What if .......

[Zhade]

45. Voila.

Sorry, that misspelling just annoys me. Carry on. ; )

[SlingBlade]

156. We all have our points, Me as well :)

[CreekDog]

255. Wallah, you're wrong

please don't lecture the guy about "flick of the wrist".

Prius' don't have keys or ignitions.

You are giving him instructions to turn off a model of car that he was not driving.

[Nihil]

273. A "flick of the wrist" is all that's needed to put it in neutral.

Certainly a lot easier (and less demanding of concentration)
than having to make a call to 911 on a cellphone ...
:shrug:

[emsimon33]

This happened to me too in my 2007 Prius

and you have to hold the button for 5 seconds to get the car to stop. If you are in heavy traffic with your car accelerating out of control, taking your hand off the steering wheel to turn the car off is not that easy...believe me!

[CreekDog]

256. and not a soul who is tsk tsk-ing the guy here gives a damn how a Prius actually works

they just chide the guy for not turning the key, not flipping the thing into neutral (as if it were mechanically connected to the transmission lever), etc. etc.

i'm waiting for the post from one of these people who will say, "gee, i didn't realize Prius's don't have keys, gee i didn't know they use a button not a key to start, etc."

but i'm not holding my breath.

[emsimon33]

267. Good point

It is especially disconcerting as most of us were raised with more traditional cars so when my Prius accelerated, I automatically went into the traditional mode and was afraid to try to turn the car off or try some solutions which would have ended in disaster in a more traditional car.

[mindwalker_i]

10. Couldn't they have just thrown Republican in front of the car?

I remember a physics problem where mass is increased but momentum stays constant and this would be the same thing - just add mass until the speed needed to maintain the momentum is relatively low. Some of the R senators are so full of themselves that it wouldn't take very many of them before the car was barely moving.

[DBoon]

16. and ruin a perfectly good Toyota?

it would take months to remove the smell from the car

[mindwalker_i]

33. There is reason to think that "perfectly good"

doesn't apply in this case :)

[DBoon]

154. its all relative

"perfectly good" in comparison to a republican

[olegramps]

138. They are so full of shit that it would result in a massive skid out.

[chrisa]

143. They could have had Limbaugh sit in the front seat.

Would have slowed it down at least by half.

[Elmore Furth]

14. The NTSB says 52 people have been killen in Toyotas with uncontrolled acceleration

I do love giant corporations and know that they have our best interests at heart.

That said, they don't seem to be releasing any data on the electronic throttle and it's possible role in the malfunction. Specifically, they aren't releasing analyses of the electronics in cars they are in possession of where the problem occurred.

Toyota is a data driven company and the fact that they have not released any data by their own engineers on their own system in terms of the hours to failure.

Failure is a forensic science in technology. I don't think Toyota is being entirely forthcoming when it comes to its 'failure analysis' when it comes to it's vehicles with sudden acceleration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_analysis


http://epiac1216.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/toyotas-runaway-vehicles/

In my professional opinion, the likely scenario is a defect in a semiconductor chip used in the electronic control system. A defect that was caused by some infrequent flaw in a raw material or manufacturing process that would not show up in routine quality control testing of raw materials or components. That so many different Toyota models over many years have been found defective signifies the likelihood of a particular problem component made in a specific factory that has been used for quite a while. Moreover, the defect obviously does not ordinarily impair vehicle performance but only manifests itself under some infrequent conditions, as yet undetermined.

Alternatively, finding the cause of the sudden acceleration problem requires a standard failure analysis methodology, namely to obtain absolutely every Toyota vehicle that has experienced sudden acceleration. Then meticulously examine through microscopic and other types of analysis and testing all critical components of the electronic system (called by Toyota the Electronic Throttle Control System with intelligence). Think of it like an autopsy.

This does not appear to have been done. To the contrary, the firm hired by Toyota tested several ordinary vehicles and components. One of the primary authors of the Exponent report said they did not examine any vehicles or components that had the unintended accelerations. This makes no sense whatsoever if the defect is rare and, therefore, its finding that there was nothing wrong was meaningless. Worse, it was a deception and distraction.


Understanding Toyota Sudden Acceleration

[divideandconquer]

18. At what point do toyota's have to come off the road for the good of all?

it's time to open up the black boxes or else!

[Paulie]

21. Shifting into neutral takes a second

A lot less time than dialing a cell phone and calling 911, waiting for the cops to do the formation, and yell across.

I seriously think this is a stunt. Dude wants his 15 minutes.

[safeinOhio]

147. Better yet, shift into reverse

I've done that several times(never on my own car). Makes a really neat click, click, click sound.

[Nihil]

148. Yep ...

> Shifting into neutral takes a second

> Dude wants his 15 minutes.

And probably hoping he'll get a free Ford out of it in the end ...

[SpartanDem]

25. "This was clearly a case of driver error

everyone knows Toyota's are perfect in every way"

[Liberty Belle]

26. Much more at this thread:

The link below is to my story. I interviewed the driver in depth. This vehicle was NOT recalled, but probably should be. This was witnessed by CHP officers and the CHP press release strongly suggests this is a credible and serious problem. It was nowhere as simple as it seemed -- this was a harrowing half-hour ordeal in which multiple measures failed -- including several attempts to turn off the start switch.
http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/2897

Bear in mind, the whole recall got started because of a dead CHP officer in our community -- a Toyota driver who knew or should have known what to do since he taught a defensive driving course.

Now this 61-year old realtor survives to tell his tale -- with several CHP officers as his witnesses.

It will be tough for Toyota to dodge the bullet on this one, I suspect.

[EFerrari]

44. Well done, Liberty Belle!

Thanks for your link.

[Hepburn]

169. IMO....

...this was NO stunt. No elderly driver (I am the same age) plays games like that on a winding freeway with traffic just for 15 mins of fame.

[truthisfreedom]

34. Toyota is toast.

Seriously.

[cbgb2112]

42. Why not put it into neutral then brake? What if it is computer

sabotage?

[jmowreader]

159. I don't think many people in this situation would be in the frame of mind to do that

I will say it again: When your car is going down the road at 90 mph and you don't want it to, going down an emergency checklist in your head is the last thing you're going to think of.

I think it's one of three things: software, a cable somewhere between the accelerator pedal and the ECM picking up interference that makes the ECM think the gas pedal's all the way down, or some weird failure mode in the pedal electronics that makes it send a constant DC signal rather than a pulse train. And I think the last one is probably the real culprit--the electronics on the pedal are in a place where there's no cooling air and LOTS of crud.

[EFerrari]

43. The number of posters who leap to blame the driver

makes my stomach churn.

Time to log off. Thanks, Bozita, for this story. I'm so glad no one was killed.

[Liberty Belle]

48. The driver lived to tell his tale. Why second guess that so much?

Maybe if he'd shifted into neutral at 90 with a trucker on his tail he'd now be dead in a fireball or crashed into a ravine.

I doubt many of us could have survived a half-hour ordeal in a car with a stuck accelerator pedal on a 6-lane freeway without causing serious harm to ourselves, others, or even our vehicle. Personally I think that while his reactions weren't perfect, this driver deserves some kudos for remaining level headed and ultimately bringing this incident to an end without tragedy.

Instead of jumping all over the guy just trying to figure out what to do to save his life, why aren't more people asking what Toyota needs to do to save other lives?

Mind you, my Toyota has a rare safety feature that actually saved my life some years ago when a truck tire crashed off a bridge and crunched the front end of my car, falling on top of the hood. In most vehicles the driver would be impaled by a steering column. So Toyota has done a lot of things right. But they still have some serious issues to solve with the acceleration issue, and any chatter that distracts from that central point succeeds in shifting responsibility from the corporation to potential victims.

Would you want your mother, grandmother, child or spouse to be driving this man's car?

[EFerrari]

49. There's a clutch of posters who seem to oomfort themselves

by blaming the victim every time. Maybe that's just human but it's unlovely human.

Great job on your story, LB. :)

[Fumesucker]

120. The people on this thread I've read that are questioning the story appear to me ..

To be people who understand cars pretty well. To those of us who are enthusiasts and knowledgeable the details of the story just don't add up.

People who are far more expert than I (and I've been an enthusiast for more than forty years) have found that even in cars with more than five times the horsepower of a Prius, the brakes will stop the car at full throttle..

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

<snip>

Our focus here is not to question the validity of the “floor-mat” claims (some investigators have suggested that a faulty drive-by-wire system is to blame) but to present methods for coping with this heart-stopping situation and to investigate a Toyota’s relative performance during such an event. For our tests, we rounded up a disparate bunch: a V-6 Camry (a recalled vehicle), an Infiniti G37 convertible, and a hugely powerful 540-hp Roush Stage 3 Mustang.

Our tests were conducted at highway speeds, as the incident with the Lexus ES350 happened on an expressway, and in the lowest possible gear, as that's the worst-case scenario. Here is how to deal with a runaway car:

Hit the Brakes

Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D’s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

We included the powerful Roush Mustang to test—in the extreme—the theory that “brakes are stronger than the engine.” From 70 mph, the Roush’s brakes were still resolutely king even though a pinned throttle added 80 feet to its stopping distance. However, from 100 mph, it wasn’t clear from behind the wheel that the Mustang was going to stop. But after 903 feet—almost three times longer than normal—the 540-hp supercharged Roush finally did succumb, chugging to a stop in a puff of brake smoke.

<snip>

[EFerrari]

164. Well, I know zip about cars so hopefully those of you who do know something

can add information to the thread.

One thing that comes to mind, though, driving is mostly training. When cars don't behave they way they're supposed to, I'd bet most drivers don't handle it very well because we'd never had training on it.

[One_Life_To_Give]

180. Teachable Moment

I look at threads like this as teachable moments. While I can hope that everyone would have basic training in "When things don't go as planned". It's beneficial to be able to point out what one might be able to do in certain situations. In the hope that should some reader ever need to, some memory might be triggered. Still it's no substitute for having a driving instructor turn off the motor while driving down the road as was common where/when I was learning. And maybe just good luck with a couple busted brake lines, rotaries at way over the posted limit, ABS tripping at 6mph etc.

[EFerrari]

185. I remember brake gently and drift to the curb

if the hood flies up. I wouldn't bet on myself during a sudden acceleration, though. That would require drilling to try to by pass the fright of it.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

145. "my Toyota has a rare safety feature...."

If by that you mean a collapsible steering column, I had one of those on my 1968 Opel Rallye Kadett.

[madmom]

173. I also had one in my 2000 Chevy Impala (maybe 2003,had both) or so I was told.

[tammywammy]

284. I'm pretty sure collapsible steering columns are mandatory.

Not a rare feature in any case, but great news it saved your life.

[Iowa]

50. +1

[CreekDog]

269. I completely agree

Here you have a driver who is burning up his brakes standing on them to get an out of control car to stop.

And knuckleheads here are calling it operator error and somehow suggesting he didn't handle a malfunctioning car correctly and that makes the driver stupid.

I should mention that some of the posters that did this with the Lexus incident a while back have been tombstoned since.

[Liberty Belle]

51. RUNAWAY TOYOTA TAKES DRIVER ON TERRIFYING HIGH-SPEED RIDE; OWNER SAYS TOYOTA NOT RECALLED

Source: East County Magazine


In an exclusive interview with East County Magazine, driver says Toyota advised him that his 2008 Prius was not on the recall list


March 8, 2010 (San Diego’s East County) – James Sikes, 61, considers himself lucky to be alive following a harrowing high-speed ordeal on a freeway in San Diego's East County.


“I am still shaken up,” the local real estate agent told East County Magazine this evening, just hours after surviving a chilling 94-mph race against time after the accelerator on his car became jammed on I-8 east this afternoon. It took over half an hour to bring the runaway vehicle under control with help from California Highway Patrol, including a patrolman who bravely placed his car in front of Sikes to assure that the vehicle could be stopped before entering a perilous downhill stretch of freeway.


“If this could happen to me, it could happen to anyone,” said Sikes. “I went to El Cajon Toyota about two weeks ago and I took a recall notice…They just looked on the computer and said `You’re not part of the recall.’” The local dealer did not examine the car’s accelerator pedal, he said.

Full story at the link above.



Read more: http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/2897

---

I am the author of this important breaking news story. Other media seems to have just reported sketchy details - without interviewing the owner, who says Toyota told him his vehicle wasn't on the recall list.

So either the dealer made a huge mistake, or Toyota has NOT recalled a vehicle that had an accelerator stick and jeopardized the lives of this man and others out there on the freeway today.

This begs the question: Has Toyota truly found the cause of this problem, or not? Or is there yet another cause not yet found?

Toyota of El Cajon, incidentally, has a generally good reputation as local car dealers go with a brand new showroom touted for its innovative "green" design -- though this does not exactly inspire confidence.

[Paulie]

52. Sorry, but this is insane

The parking brake on that model Prius is a pedal to the left side of the foot well; there is no emergency brake. Putting it in neutral takes less than a second and wouldn't cause a rapid loss of speed (car has a .26 drag coefficient, same as a Corvette). Pumping the brakes would cause them to overheat and fail. A floormat caught ONTOP of the accelerator pedal would also cause the pedal to be depressed.

I think this guy is hurting for business. Now he's famous, for the requisite 15 minutes...

Edit: Just thinking about it, pulling up on the pedal? How long is his arms??? To get to the pedal would require to you lean over below the dash, then reach back and up, while keeping on hand on the wheel, at high speed??

Belle, go find a Prius (the 04 through 09 models are the same) and try it while parked. Then think about doing it at 60+.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boomerbust]

59. Fuck Toyota

Boot their asses back to Japan.

[boomerbust]

60. Fuck Toyota

Boot their asses back to Japan.

[depakid]

94. In case you hadn't noticed, Toyota employs a lot of people in the United States

[greyl]

58. Forgive me, but you aren't sounding like an objective party. nt

[Paulie]

62. How so?

Wanting facts instead of sensationalism? I ask much from the media I suppose.

[greyl]

64. (psst.. I was replying to Liberty Belle) nt

[Paulie]

68. psst... thanks... :-) I'll go to bed now, can't see the forest from the trees... :-D

[Liberty Belle]

78. There is a lot more you don't know. I heard the radio reports as this was happening.

Everything so far confirms what the witness said.

Whereas you have nothing to substantiate your statements.

[greyl]

86. Since you're the author, what your audience doesn't know is your fault.

What statements did I make that have no substantiation?

[pipoman]

71. Don't you find it just a little

unbelievable that with all of the press, congressional hearings, insurance companies, and Toyota all with teams of engineers none of whom has been able to duplicate these alleged issues nor find a cause? And the press believing every wreck victim's explanation of what occurred...very, very Audiesque.

[Liberty Belle]

75. This "wreck victim" had several CHP officers as witnesses, pulled up right next to his vehicle

which had the window rolled down. One officer could see inside, and was in communication via the PA system as well.

How much more of a credible witness do you want?

[greyl]

80. David Copperfield has witnesses. This guy's feet were not visible to the "witnesses" nt

[pipoman]

85. Why can't it be recreated is my question?

Why can't all of these people with really big brains able to answer this? Audi had numerous cases too, btw..

[TheMadMonk]

97. One possible reason. They're not doing their tests in traffic, surrounded...

...by truckies with overpowered linear amps. Not saying that is the reason, but it could well be a candidate.

[8 track mind]

165. Mad monk, that's an angle I haven't considered

Cb's are frequently retuned and the modulation is taken well past 100 percent which causes harmonics to be produced. Compound that problem with the linear amp making waaaaaaaay more power than just 4 watts. Stuff like that can make any computer do some insane shit.

[madmom]

175. UUmmm, maybe because they don't want to?

[pipoman]

191. Ummmm, you certainly don't think for an instant

that Toyota are the only ones investigating this do you? Do the insurance companies, the NTSB, other car companies, and everyone else investigating this all "don't want to"?

[pipoman]

89. Just to answer your question...I don't give

a rat's ass about witnesses, they are the absolute least believable and most biased form of evidence...you should know this as a reporter. I want controlled recreation of this issue, which hasn't yet occurred.

[olegramps]

141. I am sure that you accurately reported the incident. There are always know it alls.

[Fumesucker]

55. There was another link with more info posted in GD..

And it is even more whacked..

http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/2897

Asked if he tried shifting into neutral, he said he did not initially because he was afraid he would be hit by another vehicle if his car halted too suddenly. “There were cars all around me. They were passing me left and right…

[Paulie]

61. Yeah, but he had time to reach under the dash to pull on the accelerator pedal

No fear ducking the head below the dash, one hand on the wheel while going a brazillion miles an hour, to play with the accelerator pedal.

[Garbo 2004]

65. That's the same article in the OP. The poster is the author. nt

[greyl]

66. That's the same link. nt edit: a different link:

www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gc_pIFqke7WxQovY3MnhcyIYiLgwD9EAR59O0

[Fumesucker]

82. Oops, I got the two stories confused.. Sorry..

[Nihil]

151. "Insane" is probably close to it.

Panic-ridden 61-year-old manages to drive for "30 minutes" at "up to 94mph"
but even though he somehow tries to "pull up on the pedal" and hold formation
with police cars at these speeds for most of that time, he doesn't try putting
the car into neutral?

If this old guy has managed to confuse himself into thinking that putting
the car into neutral will somehow engage a steering lock (not encountered
on any car I've seen) are we really sure that he is on the correct side
of the 50:50 chance on which pedal to press?

:crazy:

[Liberty Belle]

56. Only 1 rec? This is a major expose the other stories on this all missed.

Other media just wrote off the CHP press release without interviewing the driver, or revealing details on what efforts were tried to stop this car and failed.

[Old and In the Way]

72. What's the expose here?

This is, at best, an anecdotal story until failure mode is understood. This could be caused by something totally unrelated to the recent acceleration problems or even attributable to human error. Even if this is another representative example of the problem, how does this story qualify as an expose? Aren't you overselling this story, based on the lack of any confirmation of the root cause for this incident?

[Schema Thing]

57. this guy is lying.

[Fumesucker]

63. The story is certainly doesn't add up..

He had cars passing him on both sides at 94 mph?

Even in California that's a bit much to believe..

[greyl]

69. Sounds like at that point, he had slowed to below the flow of traffic.

That's the way the article reads to me, anyhow.

Notice how the 'officer's statement' about seeing the brake "lining" coming off (as if Sikes was standing on the brakes) is actually hearsay from Sikes?

[Fumesucker]

74. Try reaching down and pulling up your accelerator pedal in a smallish car at high speeds..

You can't do it and see where you are going..

And by the time the brake lining starts flying off you have already lost just about all braking, if the throttle was still stuck wide open the car would be accelerating back up to high speed before that happened.

It doesn't take long at all to overheat brakes in that sort of situation, a mile or two tops.. Which at 90 miles per hour works out to probably a couple of minutes at the outside..

Oh, and emergency or parking brakes only work on two wheels, usually the rear and are normally a good bit smaller than the regular brakes

[Schema Thing]

81. Can't see why he wouldn't use New, Improved "Neutral" with 100% less power

to your wheels!

[tabatha]

92. If you have long arms you can. I have.

[Liberty Belle]

98. Me too - I had a high heel get caught and cause a pedal to stick once,

reached right down in freeway traffic to free it up after the shoe had slipped off my foot. Not the recommended plan, but I suspect this is the sort of reflect reaction a lot of people might try.

Again, a driver inexperienced in dealing with a major mechanical failure should not be made a scapegoat. Even if he did EVERYTHING wrong, which was not the case here, he would not have been in danger had his vehicle simply worked properly as any car should have.

[Fumesucker]

102. The guy is 61 years old..

I'm about that old and nowhere near as flexible as I used to be, these days if I drop something like my phone on the floor it stays there until I'm stopped because it's just not safe to even try and get it.

[Liberty Belle]

130. Hey, we're in SD- even the old folks jog and are health nuts.

[Liberty Belle]

95. The road goes up and down - 94 was the peak speed, but

in places it was considerably less. This is a freeway that's 5 or 6 lanes on each side and yes, truckers speed like the devil out there between towns. I've ridden with someone going 80 out there and been passed like I was standing still.

[Old and In the Way]

67. His accelerator is stuck open and he can't put the vehicle in nuetral?

Sounds like the guy was in panic mode and not thinking clearly. Sure, he'll melt the pads if there's no corresponding reduction in acceleration. I'd have hit the flashers and put the car in nuetral, find a place to pull over and turn off the engine.

[greyl]

70. One can stand on the brakes and stop the car, even if the accelerator is floored.

Even if the car is already going 70, 100, or 120 mph.

See the March issue, I think, of Car & Driver for their test data.

[Old and In the Way]

79. No doubt....and a Prius isn't exactly a muscle car.

A combination of prudent braking and putting the car into nuetral should have made this a non-story. I'm sure that some of these accidents have occurred because the driver had little/no reaction time. But it sounds like this guy had a lot of time to react to the situation.

[Liberty Belle]

96. Even if true, accelerator pedals still shouldn't stick.

Pumping brakes can make them lock up though, which could be what happened here if he pumped before standing on them.

I think the driver actually did a fairly reasonable job of keeping his wits about him, not panicking, and lived to tell about the ordeal -- unlike the last local driver we know of who had this happen, and wound up dead with his family in a fiery crash.

his reactions weren't perfect but how many people in such a situation will act like professional race drivers? Toyota should not be given a pass on this. Fact: Accelerators shouldn't stick. If they do, the car maker should be responsible for the consequences, not the driver trying his or her hardest to make snap judgments in a highly stressful situation that they should never had been put into.

I am not anti-Toyota, FYI. For the record, my Toyota Camry saved my life.

In a freak accident, a semi's truck tire flew off on an elevated section of highway and came crashing down on top of the hood of my car. It crushed my end, broke open the radiator, and scared the bejeezus out of my husband and me. My son, an engineer, told us that Toyota is one of the very few cars to have a special feature that protects you from something heavy falling on your hood from above. In most cars should such a freak accident occur, the steering wheel would be pushed back into the vehicle, impaling and killing the driver.

I wrote Toyota a letter thanking them for caring about customer safety, and have given them the doubt more than most have on the acceleration issues, believing them to be a generally reputable company trying to figure out a complicated problem.

But the fact that this occurred in a vehicle not on the recall list would indicate there is still evidently a problem they haven't identified or solved, wouldn't you agree?

[Fumesucker]

114. Back in the old days a broken motor mount could jam your throttle wide open..

You're right, accelerators shouldn't stick but nothing designed and built by human beings is perfect.

I'm glad you weren't hurt in that accident, that would have scared the crap (probably literally) out of anyone..

[pipoman]

127. Seriously, have you read the Audi story from the 1980's

there is quite a lot of info available about it. If you read it, it sounds like exactly the same phenomenon as it happening now with Toyota.

[icnorth]

257. And Ford...

http://www.safetyforum.com/fordsua/

[elleng]

84. Thanks Oldie; I'll remember that!

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greyl]

76. Speaking for myself, I'm not blaming the victim. I simply doubt there is one. nt

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greyl]

83. Doubting a sensationalized "news" story isn't foolish, sorry.

As I said above, the cops couldn't see the driver's feet.
It's foolish to tackle journalism without a healthy dose of critical thinking and demand for credible evidence. Otherwise, one may be used as a tool for people who want attention.

[Liberty Belle]

99. So you prefer the AP account that didn't even bother to quote the driver?

Of course many don't live to tell about such experiences.

[greyl]

117. That's not exactly germane, is it?

It appears you're trying to avoid dealing directly with my post.

I'm just one of your readers disagreeing with the seemingly inflexible conclusions you've drawn from the facts at hand, as discovered and supplied by you. To me, your story is presented in a sensationalized way, the headline and its foregone conclusions being red flags.
I can't understand how you've ruled out the possibility that the driver's story, and in turn the impression he gave the CHP, are not entirely forthright.

edit: "are not"

[Electric Monk]

88. 20 minutes? Really? 20 minutes before it occurred to him to shut it off or put it in neutral? Wow

I find that hard to believe.

[Liberty Belle]

100. The runaway car incident lasted 30 minutes, 20 after CHP arrived.

I have multiple emergency radio broadcast alerts from a monitoring service that documents these things as well as the CHP incident page that kept updating as it occurred. The evidence is there.

[Fumesucker]

104. Car And Driver is one of the most authoritative car magazines today..

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

<snip>Our focus here is not to question the validity of the “floor-mat” claims (some investigators have suggested that a faulty drive-by-wire system is to blame) but to present methods for coping with this heart-stopping situation and to investigate a Toyota’s relative performance during such an event. For our tests, we rounded up a disparate bunch: a V-6 Camry (a recalled vehicle), an Infiniti G37 convertible, and a hugely powerful 540-hp Roush Stage 3 Mustang.

Our tests were conducted at highway speeds, as the incident with the Lexus ES350 happened on an expressway, and in the lowest possible gear, as that's the worst-case scenario. Here is how to deal with a runaway car:

Hit the Brakes

Certainly the most natural reaction to a stuck-throttle emergency is to stomp on the brake pedal, possibly with both feet. And despite dramatic horsepower increases since C/D’s 1987 unintended-acceleration test of an Audi 5000, brakes by and large can still overpower and rein in an engine roaring under full throttle. With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

We included the powerful Roush Mustang to test—in the extreme—the theory that “brakes are stronger than the engine.” From 70 mph, the Roush’s brakes were still resolutely king even though a pinned throttle added 80 feet to its stopping distance. However, from 100 mph, it wasn’t clear from behind the wheel that the Mustang was going to stop. But after 903 feet—almost three times longer than normal—the 540-hp supercharged Roush finally did succumb, chugging to a stop in a puff of brake smoke.

<snip>

More at the link..

[tabatha]

91. Somehow, I really don't think that someone would pull off

such a dangerous stunt intentionally --- or ruin his brakes or anything else in the car.

[Fumesucker]

93. Are you a car enthusiast?

Because to the knowledgeable car enthusiast this story just doesn't sound credible in its details, which is why it's getting so much negative reaction.

People do incredibly stupid things every day..

Famous last words: Hey, watch *this*!

[safeinOhio]

152. As a long time car enthusiast

I have no knowledge about Hybrid car electric systems. I do know that computer chips and software are very complex and monitor and react to almost all systems in these over engineered vehicles. Acceleration is controlled by various other systems, brakes being one of them. I would not be shocked to find that ABS is also influenced by other systems. This could lead to all kinds of malfunctions of ALL systems. If those damn microchips are so great and reliable, why in the hell is my computer screwing up all of the time? If you are looking for the safest car, look for the simplest one with the fewest "improved" modern technologies. With fewer things to go wrong, usually fewer things go wrong. I'm sure, in the future reliability will catch up with technology, until then you are the experiment. Good luck.

[Fumesucker]

87. No offense, but you really don't sound like you know much about cars..

For a knowledgeable car enthusiast this story raises more questions than it answers, that is why you are getting a negative reaction from some people.

[Liberty Belle]

103. CHP seems to find him credible, and no other media has questioned

the driver's story.

While his reactions may not have all been ideal, most people aren't professional drag racers or cops, and should not be expected to have to react like pros to save their lives in a major mechanical failure.

Now, to the extent that discussing the driver's less-than-perfect logic or reactions may help someone else in the same situation take better or safer steps, I'm all for that.

But not for the implication in some posts here that it's all the driver's fault or that anyone claiming their accelerator went out of control and that they tried various reasonable (or unreasonable) things to stop it must be making it all up. The problem with such suggestions is they let the manufacturer off the hook, where there could well be some serious liability here -- and millions more at risk if the acceleration problem extends beyond models already recalled.

There are also, incidentally, around 50 or 60 complaints from drivers who claim their Toyotas suddenly accelerated AFTER they had them repaired under recall--also very troubling, if any of those are true.

[greyl]

105. Please see The Great Windshield Mystery of 1954.

A strange phenomenon swept through the Puget Sound region in April of 1954. Residents in Bellingham started reporting numerous, tiny pits in their car windshields. The mystery pits began to spread. Soon pitted windshields were reported in Anacortes, Mount Vernon and on Whidbey Island. This horror continued to spread until it reached Seattle.

It was a genuine cause of concern. As the number of cars with pitted windshields grew, so did the theories to explain them. Some thought it was cosmic rays. Other cited atmospheric conditions and radioactive fallout. More creative types blamed sand fleas -- claiming their eggs had somehow survived the glass making process and later hatched. A few citizens claimed they saw their windshields bubbling as new pits appeared.

Seattle police were routinely flagged down by drivers who had noticed the strange pits. The mayor of Seattle sent urgent telegrams to the governor and President Eisenhower, asking for help.

The rest: http://clayorama.blogspot.com/2009/11/cryptowa-13-great-windshield-mystery.html

[Fumesucker]

106. See my post #52 on this thread..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4299101&mesg_id=4299252

Unintended acceleration has been an issue several times before now, most notably with the Audi 5000 in the mid 80's.. After extensive research into the problem it turned out to be driver error, hitting the accelerator instead of the brake.

[Fumesucker]

108. If you read my post #52 on this thread you'll see that the brakes are enough to stop the car

At full throttle even a Mustang with over 500 HP (that's more than five times a Prius) would stop at full throttle with just the foot brakes.

I suspect there may be some kind of problem with Toyotas but I think people are now getting hysterical about it and I wouldn't be at all surprised if some were trying to cash in by faking this kind of incident.

[greyl]

119. I agree about the hysteria.

Some hysteria has to be expected to surround this issue, which is what I was getting at in the Windshield Mystery post.

I haven't subscribed to C&D, R&T, or Automobile for many years, but read the article you linked to waiting for the recall work to be done on our Rav4 last week.
No shit.

edit: clarity

[safeinOhio]

155. Many said the same about

pinto gas tanks and covairs flipping over. Over time, blame was solved. My guess is it will be again and I won't blame hysterical drivers anymore than Toyota until then. Intermittent problems have always been frustrating to car owners and mechanics. If your car acts crazy, it'll never do it at the garage. Only data over a long period of time will prove this. In the mean time, Toyotas' denial and failure to be forthcoming with highway safety regulators is telling to me. They have become the Ford and GM of the 60s and 70s.

[Hepburn]

170. Question:

If the brakes were adequate to stop the car ~~ then why did the CHP witness the brake linings flying off the car?

:shrug:

[Fumesucker]

172. Do we have a statement from the CHP to that effect?

My reading of the piece is that the reporter only talked to the driver although it's not entirely clear to me.

[Hepburn]

174. Read it and now cannot find where I read it!

Will keep looking.

[greyl]

193. What you read was a quote from the driver, not a CHP officer.

Sikes said, speaking of an officer, "He could see the lining coming off."

[emsimon33]

115. Do you own a Prius? I do and my car accelerated out of control

coming down a mountain. It was all I could do just to keep to the road. There is no way I would take my hand off the steering wheel. But if I could, I would have been afraid that if I pressed the button and turned the car off, that the wheel would lock and I would go over the edge of the mountain. I am very lucky to be alive.

[Liberty Belle]

129. You are fortunate. What year is your Prius? What did Toyota say and how long ago was this?

If you are willing to talk on record to a reporter,please PM me.

[emsimon33]

264. 2007 Prius

This happened in 2009.

[emsimon33]

265. I don't know how to PM

Contact me.

[emsimon33]

268. For to answer: What did Toyota say.

I was heading to San Jose, CA. When I reached San Jose, I had my friend follow me to the Toyota dealership. I explained what had happened (this was early July of 2009, right after 4th of July). The service department took the car and didn't say a word. My car has an extended warranty that covers everything for 6 years (I believe that's the number) or 100,000 plus miles, thus I didn't expect any charge....which there wasn't.

The service department couldn't blame the problem on the pads as I had removed the one on the driver's side. They didn't give any explanation for what happened, but then I didn't ask.

I have had no problem since and I had had the acceleration problem (but just for short periods of time) before the ride down the mountain.

Nevertheless, I love my Prius!

[Paulie]

139. Did you have the car in "B" mode going down that mountain?

Or did you ride the brake the whole way? Because if you didn't do the former, the latter would overheat the brakes and then gravity takes over the "acceleration." Just like it would do in any vehicle.

I'm not sure on the 01-03 model, but the 04-09 model doesn't have a steering wheel lock, or haven't you noticed?

[emsimon33]

263. 2007 Prius

I hadn't noticed regarding the wheel not locking.

I had had the accelerator "stick" before and trying to break didn't help but pressing up and down on the accelerator seemed to (may have been in my mind but I was able to gain control of the car again. I thought that the problem might be the pads, so I had removed the pad on the drivers' side.

So, when I was coming down off the mountain and the breaks didn't work, I tried what had worked in the past but it didn't until I started to climb back up again and lost speed. I was then able to turn off the car.

[tabatha]

90. Nicely written story.

(Not getting into the flame wars).

However, this is probably an unnecessary comma:

"Adding to the danger, there were steep embankments—and Sikes knew that soon, he would "

[Liberty Belle]

101. Thanks for support--and the eagle eye!

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Electric Monk]

110. I don't own Toyota stock, I've never owned a Toyota car, and I find this story hard to believe.

edit: and I don't work for Toyota or any of their subsidiaries.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberty Belle]

128. Thanks,Occulus, I needed that!

[Electric Monk]

186. I wonder what they said, since it's now deleted. I guess I'll just have to guess. nt

[Fumesucker]

111. I don't even have a damn job and I own no stock in any company whatsoever..

To anyone who knows cars this story is fishy, that's why it's being questioned..

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Iowa]

116. +1

[Occulus]

125. They're getting pretty transparent, aren't they? n/t

[greyl]

118. The OP is an employee of the web site linked to in the OP.

(the OP now at post #51 since the merge)

Where is your logic now?

[Occulus]

122. The OP looks to be a reporter.

It looks like a legitimate magazine, and I'll bet the OP has a paid position with said magazine.

I'm a postal worker. Does that make what I say about plant operations suspect somehow? :eyes:

The OP also conducted an interview with the person cited in the incident, who himself has the backing of law enforcement officials who were on the scene. That's a lot more than you can claim. YOU have nothing of the kind, which puts your position as that of an apologist for Toyota, lacking any of the credibility or first-person access the OP has.

IOW, massive, indefensible fail on your part.

[pipoman]

131. Have you read the Audi story from the 1980's

same phenomenon, same types of frantic stories, entirely attributed to driver error in the end....extremely plausible, in fact likely, this is the exact same issue 25 years later.

[pipoman]

135. Here, there is a lot more available...

Reported sudden unintended acceleration

Audi's U.S. sales fell after a series of recalls from 1982-1987 of Audi 5000 models<13> associated with reported incidents of sudden unintended acceleration linked to six deaths and 700 accidents.<13> At the time, NHTSA was investigating 50 car models from 20 manufacturers for sudden surges of power.<14>

A 60 Minutes report aired 23 November 1986,<15> featuring interviews with six people who had sued Audi after reporting unintended acceleration, showing an Audi 5000 ostensibly suffering a problem when the brake pedal was pushed.<16><17> Subsequent investigation revealed that 60 Minutes had engineered the failure — fitting a canister of compressed air on the passenger-side floor, linked via a hose to a hole drilled into the transmission.<15>

Audi contended, prior to findings by outside investigators,<14> that the problems were caused by driver error, specifically pedal misapplication.<14> Subsequently, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concluded that the majority of unintended acceleration cases, including all the ones that prompted the 60 Minutes report, were caused by driver error such as confusion of pedals.<18> CBS did not acknowledge the test results of involved government agencies, but did acknowledge the similar results of another study.<19>

With the series of recall campaigns, Audi made several modifications; the first adjusted the distance between the brake and accelerator pedal on automatic-transmission models.<13> Later repairs, of 250,000 cars dating back to 1978, added a device requiring the driver to press the brake pedal before shifting out of park.<13> A legacy of the Audi 5000 and other reported cased of sudden unintended acceleration are intricate gear stick patterns and brake interlock mechanisms to prevent inadvertent shifting into forward or reverse.

Audi’s U.S. sales, which had reached 74,061 in 1985, dropped to 12,283 in 1991 and remained level for three years.<13> — with resale values falling dramatically.<20> Audi subsequently offered increased warranty protection <20> and renamed the affected models — with the 5000 becoming the 100 and 200 in 1989<14> — and only reached the same sales levels again by model year 2000.<13>

A 2010 Business Week article — outlining possible parallels between Audi's experience and 2009–10 Toyota vehicle recalls — noted a class-action lawsuit filed in 1987 by about 7,500 Audi Audi 5000-model owners remains unsettled and is currently being contested in county court in Chicago after appeals at the Illinois state and U.S. federal levels.<13>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi#Reported_sudden_unintended_acceleration

[greyl]

194. You don't say.

I'm not in the habit of questioning the motives of DUers, but as you seem to be, I merely presented your logic back to you. You're avoiding the point.
Adios.

[DallasNE]

107. While Cars Shouldn't Have Problems Like This

I don't know why the drivers just don't turn the ignition key off at the first sign of trouble. Instead we get driver panic. How stupid.

[druidity33]

192. on most cars, the steering wheel locks

when you remove the key... sometimes just when you turn it off. If i were going 60-90mph in traffic, i would want to be able to steer to the side of the road. He should have put it it neutral. It's not clear whether he ever did. I hope Toyota owners will at least take that away from these incidents. PUT IT IN NEUTRAL.

First thing i learned when i started riding motorcycles was how to "dump the bike" and get off clean. I wonder if this type of stuff is covered in Drivers Ed nowadays...

:shrug:

[DFW]

136. Since 1975.......

All I have ever driven in recent decades was a stick shift. I never regretted my decision. I also taught my
wife and daughters how to drive them, and my wife now only drives stick shifts (my daughter and sister, who
live in the States, drive Toyota automatics *gulp*). Since 1986, all we have ever driven here have been locally
made (we live in Germany) stick shift cars, and they have been behaving beautifully.

I think we'll stick to that, no pun intended.

[Blue_Tires]

149. i heard this on the radio this morning

if it is true that he took it to the dealer and they refused to work on it, there is that much more fuel for the fire...

[Odin2005]

150. K&R

[slackmaster]

157. Isolated incident

:crazy:

[skipos]

158. I wonder what this thread would look like if it was a runaway Hummer instead of a Prius

Probably a lot less blame on the driver.
Everyone has probably had a case of looking for their glasses for 20 minutes, and later realizing that they were on their head. We aren't always on our toes, especially when we are in a panic. I wouldn't blame the driver for not thinking to put the car in neutral.

[harun]

162. Saw the same comments on CNN's article. Really stupid for people

to be blaming the driver. He went through a number of scenarios himself and with what 911 told him to do.

This is a major design flaw that is the fault of Toyota, not drivers.

[Hepburn]

166. Gawd...

...the more I read about the Toyota problems, the more I stay the hell away from any of them I see on the road!

:scared:

[Romulox]

171. If the Prius was made by GM, DUers would be in a frenzy about this! nt

[madmom]

177. You got that right, good thing walmart isn't in the fray some how. LOL

[Sultana]

181. +1

[ztlore]

182. A person with a medical condition but not old enough for Medicare needs money to survive

any way they can. That is all.

[Hepburn]

190. And he can afford a new Toyota...

...ever consider FACTS???

:eyes:

[golfguru]

183. This is typical example of computer software getting unnecessarily

too complex. I have developed million+ lines of computer code in my job
and in my experience, the more complex the program, the more difficult it
gets to avoid bugs.

In some thing as dangerous as a car running at high speeds, it is critical
to keep the software simple and straight forward and build in as many
safety checks as possible to avoid a runaway situation.

This is entirely the fault of software engineering by programmers who
don't have sufficient experience or are not savvy enough or were not
given enough time to debug the software.

[d.gibbs]

184. Watch his facial expressions and body language in the video

Very interesting....

[Hepburn]

196. Yes, they were...

...this man is absolutely telling the truth. Poor guy!

[flamingdem]

187. Would like to be a fly on the wall at the Toyota meeting today.. nt

[ztlore]

197. Wife of driver in runaway Prius says dealer refused to inspect the car

Source: Associated Press

EL CAJON, Calif. -- The wife of a San Diego County man who survived a drive in a runaway Prius says the dealer refused to look at the car when it was taken in for repairs under a recall notice.

Driver James Sikes of Jacumba sped along Interstate 8 for 20 minutes Monday before a California Highway Patrol officer slowed the car enough for him to turn it off. Sikes says the accelerator stuck - a nationwide problem that has prompted Toyota to recall millions of cars.

His wife, Patty, said Tuesday the family took the car to Toyota of El Cajon a couple weeks ago after receiving a recall notice. She says the dealer refused to examine the car and said the model was not on the recall list.

The dealership had no immediate comment.



Read more: http://www.ktvl.com/articles/car-1194211-recall-says.html

[jobycom]

198. I'm asking because I don't know, not to be satirical, but is there some reason

that putting the car in Neutral or B (never have been sure what the B stands for) doesn't work in these situations? I've been in cars with stuck accelerators, and that's always worked before. I own a Prius (2004 model), have slipt it into neutral while driving it several times, and I often shift into B (which is a gear that sort of acts like downshifting to slow the car and reclaim the energy to charge the battery). Does this defect somehow negate the transmission controls?

I can see if it sticks on someone in traffic they might panic for a few seconds and not think of it, but for 20 minutes? I'm just having trouble grasping that one.

[ztlore]

199. The episode had to be recorded

[Fumesucker]

200. Here...

http://www.techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/b-mode.html

There is a lot of mystery about the "B" shift selector position in the
Prius. The official name for it -- Engine Braking -- should provide a
first hint as to what it is really for. Page 137 in the '04 owners' manual
spells it out fairly clearly, in fact. But somehow a whole body of mythology
about "more regeneration" and extra battery-charge magically appearing from
nowhere has sprung up since, and really needs to be permanently debunked.
In the smallest possible nutshell, "B" mode is designed to WASTE some energy
that the car cannot recover and store. But to fully understand "B" mode one
must also take numerous other running conditions into account -- speed,
temperature, battery state of charge , brake pedal pressure, etc.

[jobycom]

208. That was fascinating!

I knew it was an engine brake, but didn't fully understand how it worked. Also, the part about how the braking system works, using the drivetrain instead of the friction brakes in many situations--explains some of the car's behavior I've noticed when braking.

Still, it sounds like B would slow it at excessive speeds, since it goes into "fuel starve" mode, as the article says. And it doesn't say anything that would make me think you couldn't just shift into neutral.

[elocs]

240. I just heard a long story on NPR about this and putting the car into neutral

was never even suggested or brought up. Doesn't this car have a neutral gear? So for 20 minutes this guy never put the car into neutral and it was never suggested? :shrug:

[boomerbust]

201. Toyota will pay billions

And rightfully so.

[DebbieCDC]

202. I think this story smells funny

All of a sudden I've noticed a lot of these type of stories about Toyotas. One recently in Georgia I think it was where a Prius took off and drove into a (conveniently) unoccupied house. I'm just wondering if some drivers with perfectly good cars are trying to angle for $$ and/or TV appearance or whatever.

[boomerbust]

203. Smells funny?

A lady crashed her Lexus into the local laudromat after sudden uncontrlable acceleration, the only thing that's going to smell funny is Toyotas bottom line.

[Little Star]

204. Oh yeah, the drivers are a bunch of grifters. But Toyota is wonderful.

[Rebubula]

205. No...

..Toyota sucks. That is well established.

However, it is also well established that some people will take advantage of troublesome situations in order to advance themselves or make money.

[pundaint]

215. A '92 Toyota Camry was the best value in auto's in my 24-car lifetime experience.

I wonder if American Management techniques have been applied to the manufacture of Toyota's now. We've got the best workers, but the worst managers. For American Management quality and safety have been quantified, and they are now calculated and compared to legal risks, rather than be the goals they once were. The contribution to American success is no part of management's contribution, and until we restore and support Unions that wont change.

[yodoobo]

207. +1 My thoughts exactly

This last one just seems hinkey to me.

[jobycom]

210. I'm wondering that, too. Kind of like the Pepsi hypodermic story a few decades ago.

One person claimed to have found a hypodermic in a sealed Pepsi can, it became a huge story, then a dozen or so other needles were found in sealed Pepsi cans. It turned out that every one of them were hoaxes--even the first.

I know the complaints about the Prius accelerators have been around a few years--I've seen them before on Prius chat sites while trying to find answers about other things. And it's possible this man is telling the truth just as it happened. Some parts of the story sound contradictory to me, though. I don't understand how someone doing 90+ mph on an interstate could reach down and pull up on the pedal with his hands and not lose control of the car. Maybe he has extra long arms, but I still can't imagine it at that speed, where the slightest swerve could cause complete loss of control. Nor do I understand why he didn't just put the car in neutral. One story I read said he was told to do that (by either the cop or the 911 dispatcher) but said he was afraid of losing control of the car. That's a dumb excuse, and anyone with that little knowledge of cars wouldn't be on the floor trying to pry a stuck accelerator up.

Not to mention, I've had my Prius over 90 more than a few times without even trying--the speed limit in west Texas is 80--and I have no doubt it would go faster than 94, which is the fastest speed this guy claimed he reached. An accelerator stuck full open on a Prius would probably get speeds over a hundred. I've Googled and seen top speeds listed as between 106 to 116, depending on the year.

Just seems off-kilter to me, but who knows? I'm suspicious, but I've only heard snippets of the story. Maybe I've heard the wrong snippets.

[liberal N proud]

212. So the California Highway Patrol officer is part of it?

The only funny smelling thing about this story is the continued denial from Toyota that there is a problem.

[jobycom]

214. Why would he have to be?

All he did was pull up next to the guy and tell him to hit the brakes. :shrug:

[Hepburn]

231. And...you forgot this part...

...he smelled the burning brakes and could see the driver trying to stop the car. Oh, and he used his cruiser to stop the run away car.

[liberal N proud]

244. Minor detail when you are a loyal Toyota owner

Love is blind

[yodoobo]

235. of course not

it seems clear that Toyota has a problem. There are recalls in action at this very moment.

But it also seems that some unscrupulous people may be trying to take advantage and get their own payday.

this last event has the stink of fraud written all over it.

I won't be suprised at all if we hear within a week or two that the cops managed to get him to admit it.

[gristy]

216. +2

I'm not buying it either.

[letmebefrank]

206. So - Let me get this straight

The dealer "refused" to inspect the car - which is not even on the recall list, and then - viola - Suddenly it is involved in an acceleration problem. And, the driver just happened to be on a stretch of highway where he could drive 30+ miles, and call 911 AND wait for the police to "show up" along side of him, instead of just shutting off the engine or putting it in neutral. In fact, one article said that - while it was "accelerating uncontrollably", that other cars were passing him (!?), and also stated that he did not "want" to shift into neutral.

Trust me - this smells fishy, me thinks someone was pissed off at the dealer and decided to prove a point.

Lots of mis-information out there about this "sudden acceleration". ALL anyone has to do, is shift into neutral and apply the brakes. OR - Shut off the engine immediately, and apply the brakes. Don't pump them, don't panic, and don't worry about the steering. AT speed, you do not NEED power steering. Once you're out of the parking lot, power steering is negligible.

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jobycom]

211. That's bullshit.

We've seen a lot of fraud in this country, and there are legitimate reasons to have questions here. To claim people with questions are on the payroll is offensive bullshit of the worst kind.

[Javaman]

219. At this point in time...

anyone questioning the issue with the toyota recall and the acceleration problem is choosing to be willfully ignorant.

I think the death of 54 people plus countless first hand reports that these issues are happening is enough to cause even the most skeptical to give pause.

I guess some people enjoy being contrary. :shrug:

[fedupinBushcountry]

234. Actually

it's 34 and that is since 2000. Now lets check all the brands of cars for certain malfunctions that caused deaths.

[Little Star]

241. Wrong! Look it up.

[fedupinBushcountry]

246. I did

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/automotive/22568567/detail.html

[Little Star]

270. That was back in Feb. Here is a more recent death count.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/02/business/main6258603.shtml

U.S.: 52 Deaths Reportedly Tied to Toyota

(CBS/AP) The government says it has received complaints of 52 deaths connected to reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles since 2000.

The Transportation Department released an updated number of deaths before a Senate hearing Tuesday on the massive recall.

[One_Life_To_Give]

242. That Toyota has a issue is not in dispute

That after over 100 years of throttles getting stuck on cars/horseless carriages. Assumptions that a driver has zero responsibility for being able to control a malfunctioning vehicle are. I think we all understand being surprised, and not having full normal control. But that does not mean we don't expect that a driver given a sufficient period of time should be expected to regain some level of control.

[Javaman]

245. next time your gas pedal gets stuck, get back to me with your report on how you reacted.

I do not and never ever will pretend to know how one would react in an emergency. You might try the same.

[One_Life_To_Give]

254. turned the key off

got the car stopped, popped the hood and freed up the stuck accelerator cable. Been there done that, 1985 Cutlass Supreme, 231CID.

[Javaman]

262. right.

:eyes:

And everyone is you.

Ego much?

compassion and empathy aren't your finer points,

You are blocked.

Cheers! :)

[One_Life_To_Give]

278. Compassions for the children living and palying around

DU'ers and other readers here. Whom society has licensed to operate 3000lb missiles in and around.

If you looked closer at my posts. You might notice I don't blame operators. But a society that doesn't demand that licensed operators of 3000+lb projectiles be trained in dealing with mechanical failures which are statistically probable and reasonably foreseeable.

It's said that experience is a tough teacher. It gives the exam first and the lesson second. I can only hope that most people are listening to the lesson while consoling the victim.

[valerief]

220. Most of the fraud is with Wall St. nt

[Missy Vixen]

227. Oh, yeah. Lots of "fraud".

>To claim people with questions are on the payroll is offensive bullshit of the worst kind.<

So, I guess the cop that died with his entire family while driving a Lexus whose accelerator stuck was "defrauding" Toyota as well. Police officers take some pretty intense advance driving courses. If that guy couldn't defeat what was going on, there's an endemic problem with the cars.

The sudden influx of Toyota defenders here is interesting. Perhaps you'd like to call the families of the deceased and tell them their loved one was just "defrauding" Toyota. Talk about "offensive bullshit of the worst kind" -- when you sit in the driver's seat of a car that's topping 90+ MPH due to random acceleration, you have tried whatever you could to stop the car, you're convinced you're going to die -- THEN you can comment on "fraud".

What will you say when it's found that the problem has nothing to do with the gas pedal, but everything to do with code in the onboard computers? Do you comprehend what you read? You might want to check out what's come out over the past couple of weeks re: Toyota knowing there are more problems with the models involved, but didn't want to spend the money to address the real problems.

-MV
owns a '96 Tacoma. Maybe we should talk about the frame rusting problem, hm?

[enlightenment]

217. A sudden halt? In neutral?

Momentum would suggest that wouldn't be the case, wouldn't it? Even if all four wheels locked up, the car would still move forward, not stop on a dime.

I'm not commenting on this episode - just the idea that shifting into neutral in any vehicle will cause it to decelerate at so fast that the driver couldn't drift onto the side of the road. I had a car years ago (a Chevy) that suddenly lost all power - completely dead - while I was on the highway. I won't disclose how fast I was going *cough too fast cough* but the car continued moving for about a quarter mile, with sufficient momentum for me to get to the side (which was really hard since the steering was rigid as a rock). Not the same thing as this issue, of course - but addresses the idea of a vehicle coming to a 'sudden' halt.

[Missy Vixen]

223. Have you ever driven on a Southern California freeway?

Would you want to be on that freeway with no guarantee that a) the cars behind you could stop before they hit you due to your car decelerating in a manner you had no control over, or b) I've never been on a Southern California freeway when the traffic was light.

IMHO. YMMV.

[letmebefrank]

236. I never claimed

that toyota doesn't have a problem here. Cars have become extremely complicated, and these new Toyota's have throttle systems that are computer controlled, there isn't a direct "linkage" mechanically to the gas pedal. I am of the opinion that IF they figure out what's really happening here, it will be software and won't have anything to do with the "gas pedal" or the floor mats.

However - any person driving a car has a responsibility to be able to handle the vehicle under emergency situations. I'm sorry but that includes defects that might make the car unintentionally accelerate. Any variety of things can and do happen to people on the road, from tire blow outs, animals or people running out into traffic, other drivers, etc.

The media is doing a terrible job of articulating how to stop an out of control vehicle. Putting the car into neutral will NOT cause it to come to a sudden halt. Just as running out of gas does not cause all four wheels to lock up. The car would coast to a stop in a controllable manner. The worst thing that might happen - is that the engine will race at red line. Shutting the engine off is another option that would solve both issues, the vehicle will coast to a controlled stop.

Back in the 80's you might remember Audi 5000's were being blamed for the same problem. Most of the investigations that I saw clearly implicated the driver, hitting the wrong pedal. I am NOT saying that is what's happening to these toyota's. But it proves the point that yes, sometimes it is the driver's fault - and again, my assertion is that anyone who drives a car should be prepared to operate it under an emergency situation. Anyone who is driving a Toyota especially should make themselves aware of safe and proven ways to stop the vehicle if they encounter this problem.

All but the most powerful cars have brakes that will overcome the power of the engine. But in some cases you may only have one chance to stop, because once the brakes overheat, they begin to lose their braking effectiveness.

Here is a really good article from people who not only know cars, but have actually tested some of the vehicles in question.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept


Another article with more information:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial

[yodoobo]

237. lol

putting a car in neutral doesn't slam a car to a halt.

put it in nuetral and stop at pace that you are comfortable with

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_selector

[jobycom]

213. There is a legitimate reason to fear the stearing wheel being locked.

Do you know without researching it whether the steering wheel on a Prius locks if you turn the engine off? I don't, and I own a Prius. I can see someone worrying about that.

I'm not sure turning off the engine is a good idea. The Prius transmission and ignition aren't like older cars, where you can leave the car in Neutral or Drive and the wheel won't lock. It's all electronic switches, so it's not obvious unless you already know for sure what will happen when you press the "Start" button to kill the engine. It's not something I would attempt at full speed.

I agree that most people by now would know to shift into neutral, even if they didn't know before. That raises doubts. I won't be surprised if this turns out to be a hoax, but I'm not ready to say I know one way or the other.

[ConcernedCanuk]

218. 20 MINUTES - and the dude/driver couldn't figure something out?

.
.
.

The article does not say how the cops slowed it down to shut it off

and even IF it had steering lock, there musta been a straight stretch in there somewhere where the driver coulda shut the key off for a second or two

remember

according to the article HE KNEW THERE MAY BE A PROBLEM

so the acceleration shoulda been not a big shock"?

20 MINUTES?

gimme a break

even an idiot coulda figured out how to stop the car

I smell scam

[Javaman]

221. "so the acceleration shoulda been not a big shock"

:eyes:

just because you know it, doesn't make it less frightening when it happens.

Plus, you weren't the one driving and we all know that you are a stunt driver/NASCAR diver/drag strip driver who is never surprised by a sudden change at all.

:eyes:

I'm going to hire you as my chauffeur.

Not.

[ConcernedCanuk]

282. I'm a licenced mechanic now; before I was even an apprentice

.
.
.

I had a car take off on me - a 1968 Skylark GS400 to be exact -

I was working in a gas station and after some service was asked to take a road test with it.

I noticed it seemed to have a lot of power,

so, being young and foolish(as opposed to being now old and foolish) I stomped on it going through an intersection, unbeknownst to me at the time, breaking a motor mount which locked the throttle linkage wide open . . . GM's had a bad habit of that back then.

took me about 5 seconds to figure out to shut the ignition off

20 MINUTES WITHOUT A CLUE?

I don't believe it

BTW

your eye-rolls are getting boring . . .

[PatSeg]

222. That was what I was thinking

but I saw the officer on TV and he said he could smell the brakes and saw the brake lights come on. Sounds like this could be legit.

[yodoobo]

238. which would indicate that he wasn't braking before

No way you can brake for 20 minutes straight at 90 mph.

there would be no brakes left to burn 5 minutes into a real encounter.

no. he waited till the cops were in view, then started braking.

Toyota has a real problem, but this event is just someone trying to cash a paycheck.

[FarCenter]

224. He didn't read the recall notice??????

Sikes on Tuesday said he received a recall notice, but when he brought his Prius in for service about three weeks ago, the dealer in El Cajon said his car wasn't part of the recall. Sikes, who said he didn't read the letter from Toyota, couldn't specify what problem the recall was addressing.

From http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-prius10-2010mar10,0,7196393.story

[FarCenter]

226. The only recall on the 2008 Prius was for the floor mat issue

And the floor mat is unlikely to be the problem if he reached down and pulled up on the accelerator pedal!

http://www.newcar.com/15/04/2008/toyota/prius/recalls/9295.html

Recall Date
OCT 05, 2009


Model Affected
2008 TOYOTA PRIUS


Description
TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2004-2010 PASSENGER VEHICLES. THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL CAN GET STUCK IN THE WIDE OPEN POSITION DUE TO ITS BEING TRAPPED BY AN UNSECURED OR INCOMPATIBLE DRIVER'S FLOOR MAT.


Consequence
A STUCK OPEN ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY RESULT IN VERY HIGH VEHICLE SPEEDS AND MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO STOP THE VEHICLE, WHICH COULD CAUSE A CRASH, SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.


Remedy
TOYOTA FILED AN AMENDED DEFECT REPORT ON NOVEMBER 25, 2009, STATING THAT DEALERS WILL MODIFY THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL AND, ON CERTAIN VEHICLES, ALTER THE SHAPE OF THE FLOOR SURFACE UNDER THE PEDAL. THESE CHANGES ADDRESS THE RISK OF PEDAL ENTRAPMENT DUE TO INTERFERENCE WITH THE FLOOR MAT. REDESIGNED ACCELERATOR PEDALS WILL BECOME AVAILABLE BEGINNING IN APRIL 2010 AND DEALERS WILL REPLACE ANY MODIFIED PEDAL WITH THE NEW PEDAL IF DESIRED. ALSO, DEALERS WILL REPLACE ANY GENUINE TOYOTA OR LEXUS ALL-WEATHER FLOOR MATS WITH REDESIGNED ALL-WEATHER MATS, OR REPURCHASE THE PREVIOUS MATS FROM OWNERS WHO DO NOT WANT THE NEW ONES. ADDITIONALLY, SOFTWARE MODIFICATIONS WILL BE INSTALLED ON CAMRY, AVALON AND LEXUS ES 350, IS 350 AND IS 250 MODELS THAT WILL ENSURE THAT THE BRAKE OVERRIDES THE ACCELERATOR IN THE EVENT BOTH BRAKE AND ACCELERATOR PEDALS ARE APPLIED. TOYOTA WILL BEGIN MAILING LETTERS TO OWNERS IN DECEMBER 2009. OWNERS MAY CONTACT TOYOTA AT 1-800-331-4331, LEXUS AT 1-800-255-3987.


Potential Units Affected
4260319


Notes
TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA, INC. 90L

[704wipes]

225. Not blaming owners, but what is so hard about NEUTRAL ??

If I was driving one of these cars and it started surging like this, I might have to think about it for a few seconds, but I think I could manage to get the car in NEUTRAL, then it becomes a coaster and the brakes should bring it to a stop pretty quick.

Is there some reason a fucking Toyota won't go into NEUTRAL while it is surging like this?
It does not have to be rocket science.

If I had a Toyota, I would have already run this scenario through my head and had my plan to do this.
The worse that could happen after that is if the engine won't shut off, it will burn up eventually,
but that is preferable to running off the road or wrecking.

This guy was in it like this for 20 minutes and never thought of NEUTRAL? Geeeezz.

[McCamy Taylor]

230. This happened to me years ago. Neutral made the engine race like it was gonna blow up.

Since I was on a straight stretch of highway, I quickly turned the engine off them back on again. That took care of it. Do not try this is you are not going straight since you will lose control of the steering while the engine is off.

[FarCenter]

232. Cars now generally have a rev limiter that cuts the ignition to stop over-revving

Not saying it is good for the engine, though.

[CreekDog]

253. the Prius gearshift is not mechanically connected to the transmission

at least i don't think it is. it's like an electronic switch and when the electronics are acting goofy, are you so sure he didn't try?

[MindPilot]

228. Why wasn't he ticketed for talking on his cell phone?

That's just like driving drunk ya know!

[CreekDog]

252. the law allows you to use your cell phone to dial 911

and hands-free phones are okay no matter whom you call.

[MindPilot]

276. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

[CreekDog]

277. Please don't call me by my old screen name

:rofl:

[McCamy Taylor]

229. My Subaru did this once in the early 1980s, and as far as I know this was not part

of any trend. I wonder if any car can have uncontrolled acceleration in the right circumstances, and Toyotas are just more prone to it.

Drove that Subaru for another five or six years, without any problems.

[fedupinBushcountry]

233. I just brought my Prius

in for an inspection and when I made the appointment they checked to make sure I didn't have any recalls on it. I've got nothing but the best service from Toyota since I bought my Prius 2 years ago and will get another one when I pay this one off and this one will be our 2nd car.

You know I use to only buy American made but when no American had a fuel efficiency car but Toyota did I went for it and I love my Prius and sorry but the American car industry and the oil companies still are in the 20th century. JMO

[letmebefrank]

239. For anyone claiming that skeptics are on the Toyota payroll

I think this part of the Car and Driver article clearly shows that some measure of skepticism may be warranted here:

"In 1986, the television program 60 Minutes started Audi's "unintended acceleration" scandal. The show trotted out tearful people, recounted death and carnage, spoke to so-called experts, and generally made it seem like the vehicle in question, the Audi 5000, was a roving menace with a mind of its own. In the end, the U.S. government determined that every single so-called unintended acceleration accident was the result of driver error. Some speculated that because Audi's pedals were closer together than those of some other brands, people were too uncoordinated to choose the correct one. The pedal-placement issue Audi faced at that time parallels the throttle-kill issue Toyota faces now.



http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial

[newtothegame]

243. Aren't police like the ultimate evil?

:shrug: I can never keep track on here.

[pipoman]

260. Only when we don't need one.

[katty]

247. Class Action suit on the way

[Elmore Furth]

279. 2005 Prius crashed with unexplained acceleration Tueday in Harrison, NY

Here's a 2005 Prius that car sped out of the driveway for more than 100 feet across two lanes of traffic before crashing into the wall on Tuesday. These Toyotas are just a gift that keeps on giving.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/03/10/Another-runway-Toyota-reported/UPI-52251268253591/