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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 04:23 AM
Original message
Report condemns Honduras violence
Source: CNN

Report condemns Honduras violence
By Arthur Brice, CNN
March 9, 2010 -- Updated 0120 GMT (0920 HKT)

(CNN) -- An Organization of American States commission condemned Monday the slayings last month of three Honduran political activists opposed to a military-led coup that removed the elected president in June.

The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights also said it deplores the kidnappings, arbitrary detentions, torture, sexual violations and illegal raids that the panel maintains other members of the political resistance have suffered since the June 29 coup.

The commission cited more than 50 detentions, eight cases of torture, two kidnappings, two rapes and one raid on a residence during the past month. The attacks have been made against members of the resistance, union members and journalists, as well as their children, the panel said.

Honduras returned to democracy in January, and the newly installed government of President Porfirio Lobo Sosa bears responsibility for safeguarding civil liberties and human rights, the commission said.

Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/03/08/honduras.human.rights/index.html
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ro1942 Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. But their not socialist,
so our Gov. supports them.Bring on the Casinos
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Wow, blatant lie right up front
"a military-led coup that removed the elected president in June."

The "coup" was led by the Supreme Court of Honduras and the Congress.

The military siezed Zelaya on orders from the court.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Agreed
There isn't a meaningful distinction among Honduran business interests, their tools in the Honduran government, and the Honduran military. Zelaya was getting too close to the socialist policies of Hugo Chavez, and gaining too much popular support among the Honduran masses. He had to go.

Note the visit of Senator Jim DeMint in support of the coup regime, if there is any doubt about whether our government and business elite supported the coup.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Lanny Davis, who was advising the coup, used to work for the Clintons.


The evidence of American collusion is all over the place.
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. So, those of us who put people above party are supposed to be
good Democratic voters why?

As much as I try to avoid, and continue to return to, the class war narrative, I can't help but conclude that everything is leading to a worldwide revolution of the many against the few.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable." John F. Kennedy (and quoted by Martin Luther King)
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Wow!
I just went back and listened to the August 7, 2009 debate between Lanny Davis and Greg Grandin (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/8/7/honduras). If Davis is the guy that spoke for Clinton, how am I supposed to distinguish between Republicans and Democrats. This is yet another example of there being no fundamental difference between the two.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Davis testified before Congress about the coup, too.
I think the session is up at the CSPAN archives. If you do watch it, be sure to do it on an empty stomach. It was that disgusting. And the Democrats just let it slide.
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. This is one of those days...
when I wonder if the only solution is violence.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Care to identify the lies that are being pedaled?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. So why can't you identify the lies that are being pedaled?
It's a simple question. You're the one that made the accusation, and it's not unreasonable to ask for one to back up the accusation.

Do you dispute the fact that the military followed the direction of the Honduran Supreme Court? Do you dispute the fact that the military did not take over the government or replace the president with a military officer?

And if you don't like having someone respond to your posts, then why are you posting on a message board in the first place?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I believe the little fella's lonesome. Any attention is better than none, apparently. n/t
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. For someone who constantly bombards threads with slanted propaganda
you're hardly one to talk about someone needing attention.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Deleted message
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-10 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. Military-led coup
The military didn't lead it.

The military acted on orders from the Supreme Court, which had ruled that Zelaya had acted illegally.
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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. Why ask questions, then have the answers deleted?
Don't like the answers? Or are you just a tender blossom at heart?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. The military coup was not legal. You know that, and you hope you can influence some slow people
to see it the way you want them to see it. They can find the truth for themselves with a little time invested in research.

Not everyone will take the word of filthy right-wingers on matters this important.
July 1, 2009

Behind the Honduran Coup
Why Zelaya's Actions Were Legal
By ALBERTO VALLENTE THORENSEN

~snip~
In this respect, media coverage of the recent military coup in Honduras is often misleading; even when it is presenting a critical standpoint towards the events. Concentrating on which words are used to characterize the policies conducted by President Zelaya might seem trivial at first sight. But any familiarity to the notion of ‘manufacturing of consent’, and how slight semantic tricks can be used to manipulate public opinion and support, is enough to realize the magnitude of certain omissions. Such oversights rely on the public’s widespread ignorance about some apparently minor legal intricacies in the Honduran Constitution.

For example, most reports have stated that Manuel Zelaya was ousted from his country’s presidency after he tried to carry out a non-binding referendum to extend his term in office. But this is not completely accurate. Such presentation of “facts” merely contributes to legitimizing the propaganda, which is being employed by the coup-makers in Honduras to justify their actions. This interpretation is widespread in US-American liberal environments, especially after Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that the coup is unacceptable, but that “all parties have a responsibility to address the underlying problems that led to ’s events.” However, President Zelaya cannot be held responsible for this flagrant violation of the Honduran democratic institutions that he has tried to expand. This is what has actually happened:

The Honduran Supreme Court of Justice, Attorney General, National Congress, Armed Forces and Supreme Electoral Tribunal have all falsely accused Manuel Zelaya of attempting a referendum to extend his term in office.

According to Honduran law, this attempt would be illegal. Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution clearly states that persons, who have served as presidents, cannot be presidential candidates again. The same article also states that public officials who breach this article, as well as those that help them, directly or indirectly, will automatically lose their immunity and are subject to persecution by law. Additionally, articles 374 and 5 of the Honduran Constitution of 1982 (with amendments of 2005), clearly state that: “it is not possible to reform the Constitution regarding matters about the form of government, presidential periods, re-election and Honduran territory”, and that “reforms to article 374 of this Constitution are not subject to referendum.”

Nevertheless, this is far from what President Zelaya attempted to do in Honduras the past Sunday and which the Honduran political/military elites disliked so much. President Zelaya intended to perform a non-binding public consultation, about the conformation of an elected National Constituent Assembly. To do this, he invoked article 5 of the Honduran “Civil Participation Act” of 2006. According to this act, all public functionaries can perform non-binding public consultations to inquire what the population thinks about policy measures. This act was approved by the National Congress and it was not contested by the Supreme Court of Justice, when it was published in the Official Paper of 2006. That is, until the president of the republic employed it in a manner that was not amicable to the interests of the members of these institutions.

Furthermore, the Honduran Constitution says nothing against the conformation of an elected National Constituent Assembly, with the mandate to draw up a completely new constitution, which the Honduran public would need to approve. Such a popular participatory process would bypass the current liberal democratic one specified in article 373 of the current constitution, in which the National Congress has to approve with 2/3 of the votes, any reform to the 1982 Constitution, excluding reforms to articles 239 and 374. This means that a perfectly legal National Constituent Assembly would have a greater mandate and fewer limitations than the National Congress, because such a National Constituent Assembly would not be reforming the Constitution, but re-writing it. The National Constituent Assembly’s mandate would come directly from the Honduran people, who would have to approve the new draft for a constitution, unlike constitutional amendments that only need 2/3 of the votes in Congress. This popular constitution would be more democratic and it would contrast with the current 1982 Constitution, which was the product of a context characterized by counter-insurgency policies supported by the US-government, civil façade military governments and undemocratic policies. In opposition to other legal systems in the Central American region that (directly or indirectly) participated in the civil wars of the 1980s, the Honduran one has not been deeply affected by peace agreements and a subsequent reformation of the role played by the Armed Forces.

Recalling these observations, we can once again take a look at the widespread assumption that Zelaya was ousted as president after he tried to carry out a non-binding referendum to extend his term in office.

The poll was certainly non-binding, and therefore also not subject to prohibition. However it was not a referendum, as such public consultations are generally understood. Even if it had been, the objective was not to extend Zelaya’s term in office. In this sense, it is important to point out that Zelaya’s term concludes in January 2010. In line with article 239 of the Honduran Constitution of 1982, Zelaya is not participating in the presidential elections of November 2009, meaning that he could have not been reelected. Moreover, it is completely uncertain what the probable National Constituent Assembly would have suggested concerning matters of presidential periods and re-elections. These suggestions would have to be approved by all Hondurans and this would have happened at a time when Zelaya would have concluded his term. Likewise, even if the Honduran public had decided that earlier presidents could become presidential candidates again, this disposition would form a part of a completely new constitution. Therefore, it cannot be regarded as an amendment to the 1982 Constitution and it would not be in violation of articles 5, 239 and 374. The National Constituent Assembly, with a mandate from the people, would derogate the previous constitution before approving the new one. The people, not president Zelaya, who by that time would be ex-president Zelaya, would decide.

It is evident that the opposition had no legal case against President Zelaya. All they had was speculation about perfectly legal scenarios which they strongly disliked. Otherwise, they could have followed a legal procedure sheltered in article 205 nr. 22 of the 1982 Constitution, which states that public officials that are suspected to violate the law are subject to impeachment by the National Congress. As a result they helplessly unleashed a violent and barbaric preemptive strike, which has threatened civility, democracy and stability in the region.
More:
http://counterpunch.com/thorensen07012009.html

~~~~~~~~

Honduras: Lawyers Question Basis of Zelaya Ouster
Written by Jennifer Moore
Friday, 25 September 2009 06:26

Since June 28 when the Honduran military shot their way through the backdoor of President Zelaya's private residence, kidnapping and forcibly expatriating him to Costa Rica, the de facto regime has maintained that Zelaya's removal was a constitutional transfer of power. For its part, the Obama Administration has condemned the ouster, but stopped short of defining the events as a military coup. By US law, this would require the suspension of the majority of aid to the Central American country.

However, a preliminary report by an international delegation of lawyers that visited Honduras in late August affirms that a military coup is what took place. The report considers the lack of an independent judiciary in Honduras as part of the context in which this occurred and points to powerful economic and political groups opposed to social advances promoted by President Zelaya as the driving force behind the coup.

The report, drafted by members of the American Association of Jurists, the National Lawyers Guild, the International Association of Democratic Lawyers and the International Association Against Torture, further states that the military overthrow was a clear violation of Honduras' 1982 Political Constitution. Among various constitutional articles that the report claims were violated includes Article 102, which states: "No Honduran may be expatriated nor delivered by the authorities to a foreign state." <1>

~snip~
Dangerous Territory: Constitutional Reform

The most immediate trigger for the coup was a non-binding, national opinion poll scheduled for June 28. It was decreed by Zelaya under the Citizens' Participation Law, notes the delegation report, and would have taken place the same day as he was ousted. Hondurans would have answered the following question: "Are you in agreement that during the 2009 general elections that a fourth ballot box be installed in which the people will decide whether to strike a Constituent Assembly? Yes/No."

According to the report, the opinion poll was a "determining factor" in the coup. They explain that "powerful economic and political sectors including those who control the Honduran media vehemently opposed the move and recurred to the courts and the legislature to put in motion a very accelerated lawsuit, lacking assurances of due process in order to justify actions without grounds against President Zelaya, who they intended to try." Other reforms Zelaya was enacting which enraged to the business class included the rise in the minimum wage, the exclusion of intermediaries from state fuels purchases and the decision to purchase oil from the cheapest provider - the Venezuelan oil company Petrocaribe.

The speed with which the Supreme Court processed legal measures to block the survey raised suspicions among the delegation. "In contrast to the speed with which they acted against the constitutionally elected President Zelaya, has not made any decisions with regard to any legal process since then - up until this report was drafted - to sanction those responsible for violations of the constitution and legal order ."

Furthermore, one delegation member comments, "the de facto government clearly avoided using its legal power to arrest Zelaya when he tried to re-enter Honduras, compounding the violation of rule of law and furthering the appearance that there is no basis for claims that Zelaya committed crimes justifying his removal from office and claims that he lacks support within Honduras."

More:
http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/2132/1/
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Here's some research from the Law Library of Congress
I would say they're much more authoritative than opinion pieces. Their conclusion?

"Available sources indicate that the judicial and legislative branches applied constitutional and statutory law in the case against President Zelaya in a manner that was judged by the Honduran authorities from both branches of the government to be in accordance with the Honduran legal system."

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/honduras/constitutional-law-issues.php

Looks like the Zelaya's removal from office was indeed legal. What apparently was not in accordance with Honduran law was forcing Zelaya to leave the country.

And there was no "military coup", no matter how many times that's repeated. The military did not take over the government and appoint a military officer as president -- that's what a military coup is.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. "Obama says coup in Honduras is illegal"
Obama says coup in Honduras is illegal

(Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama said on Monday the coup that ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya was illegal and would set a "terrible precedent" of transition by military force unless it was reversed.

"We believe that the coup was not legal and that President Zelaya remains the president of Honduras, the democratically elected president there," Obama told reporters after an Oval Office meeting with Colombian President Alvaro Uribe.

More:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE55S5J220090629

~~~~~~

In a Coup in Honduras, Ghosts of Past U.S. Policies
By HELENE COOPER and MARC LACEY
Published: June 29, 2009

WASHINGTON — President Obama on Monday strongly condemned the ouster of Honduras’s president as an illegal coup that set a “terrible precedent” for the region, as the country’s new government defied international calls to return the toppled president to power and clashed with thousands of protesters.

“We do not want to go back to a dark past,” Mr. Obama said, in which military coups override elections. “We always want to stand with democracy,” he added.

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/world/americas/30honduras.html

~~~~~~

Honduras and the OAS

By Peter Hakim
Revista América Economía, August 3, 2009

Una versión de este articulo en español está disponible aquí.

On Sunday, June 28, Honduran army troops took President Manuel Zelaya prisoner and sent him into exile. The Organization of American States (OAS) reacted swiftly and decisively. All 33 OAS members (other than Honduras) condemned the army’s illegal coup d’état, and demanded that President Zelaya be restored to power within 72 hours. Secretary General Jose Miguel Insulza flew to Tegucigalpa to communicate the decision in person. When the de facto government rejected the call for Zelaya’s return, OAS members voted unanimously to suspend Honduras and many imposed other sanctions. Two weeks later, the OAS authorized a negotiating effort led by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, which has made little progress.

After more than a than a month, the political crisis in Honduras is unresolved, and may be getting worse. The two sides have become increasingly entrenched and polarized in their positions. Although violence is still minimal, President Arias has warned of the dangers of civil war and President Zelaya has claimed the “right to insurrection.” Credible observers report growing human rights abuses and press restrictions in Honduras.

More:
http://www.thedialogue.org/page.cfm?pageID=32&pubID=2061

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-10 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'd like to add something:
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. Repeating bad reporting
and bad legal opinions doesn't make them any more right.

Fact 1: The military acted under orders from the Supreme Court
Fact 2: The civilian next in line for presidency under Honduran law assumed the position upon the deposition of Zelaya.
Fact 3: At no time was the military in control of the Honduran government

It simply doesn't fit the definition of a military coup. It is in fact a stretch to even call it a coup, since what he had were two branches of government throwing out the head of the other.

If we had impeached Bush, would that have been called a coup? Same thing, Congress plus Supreme Court acting together to throw out a president accused of illegal acts. Only Honduras isn't lucky enough to have an impeachment clause.

Now did they execute the deposition completely within the law? No, it was illegal to kick him out of the country.

They should have thrown Zelaya in jail and given him a speedy public trial for what he did.

Of course no matter how it had been done many people would support him simply because he is a socialist.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-10 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. What evidence do you have
For it being a military coup? History clearly shows the Judicial and Legislative branches working together to have Zelaya thrown out.

And here's one of my favorite questions.

What if George Bush had had a bunch of ballots printed up and the federal courts at all levels had ruled that those ballots were illegal and couldn't be used in an election?

So the courts order the ballots siezed.

Then Bush had a bunch of his operatives break into where the ballots were stored and stole them, determined to still use them in the election.

Whether or not you think the ballots were illegal, I think everybody here would be screaming that Bush is an autocrat who doesn't care about the rule of law, willing to violate court orders to get his way.

But with Zelaya he gets sympathy.

Why?
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. I thought Sec. of State Clinton said there was no violence?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. She wouldn't lie to us, would she?
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. On the day before Hil arrived in Guatemala City last week



A Honduran juvenile court judge was shot to death by two men on a motorcycle. That same day, another 22 judges said they had received death threats and asked for police protection.

Today in the western city of Copan province a lawyer was killed when two men entered his office at midday and pumped seven shots into him. Ramón Arturo Bueso apparently worked for human rights organizations.

Naturally neither of the crimes have been attributed to anyone nor any motive established.






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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. And Loboletti was disappointed when no one responded to his invitation
to meet with him concerning human rights atrocities. His coup government has been torturing, beating, and assassinating them steadily since last June.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-10 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. "50 detentions, eight cases of torture, two kidnappings, two rapes ... in past month"
It just goes on, and on, .....
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