Work to cease on 'virtual fence' along U.S.-Mexico border

[pampango]

Source: Washington Post

The Obama administration will halt new work on a "virtual fence" on the U.S.-Mexican border, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano announced Tuesday, diverting $50 million in planned economic stimulus funds for the project to other purposes.

Napolitano said the freeze on work beyond two pilot projects in Arizona was pending a broader reassessment. But the move signals a likely death knell for a troubled five-year plan to drape a chain of tower-mounted sensors and other surveillance gear across most of the 2,000-mile southern border.

That vision, initiated in 2006 by President George W. Bush, called for a series of networked cameras, radar and communications gear to help speed the response of U.S. Border Patrol officers to catch illegal immigrants and smugglers over the vast border area. However, the effort has been plagued by technical problems and delays with prime contractor Boeing Corp.

The Government Accountability Office, Congress's audit arm, has found the government rushed to use off-the-shelf equipment without adequate testing. Boeing initially relied on police dispatching software that was not able to process the vast flow of information streaming from the desert, and other technical problems plagued cameras and radar.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/16/AR2010031603573.html

[ixion]

1. billions wasted on a worthless project

just more fodder for the trough. :argh:

I'm glad it was cut, but not happy about the money wasted.

[The Northerner]

4. Yep

It's amazing how much of a joke it has become considering how grand its plan was wheb proposed in 2006.

[Luciferous]

5. +1

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. I bet hearing this gives ** and Darth Cheney an ulcer. LOL

[quakerboy]

64. Why?

Their big money buddies need that cheap labor to get over here, and the initial payout for this crap has already been made. Business gets the bonus money for making the "virtual"ly useless fence, without having to take the hit on the illegals they want to hire. Plus its one more thing to use to rile the racist base. Win-win-win for them.

[galileoreloaded]

3. Immigration is the new third rail of politics, IMHO. n.t

[mbperrin]

6. More great work by Boeing!

Remind me again why I would ever get on aircraft built by the same folks?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

71. well...

Because some portion of their workforce is unionized the entire company as a whole is entirely beyond reproach when it comes to the wasting of taxpayer dollars and even outright fraud. Or at least that is what I pickup around here.

[BigD_95]

7. I wouldnt use the word " worthless "

Something needs to be done with illegal immigrants. I have no problem spending money on that issue. Illegal immigrants are costing this country Billions of dollars and neither party has the balls to do anything about it.

[Kolesar]

8. Fascist RW radio listeners issued death threats to GOP congressmen last time a bill was proposed...

...to "manage" the immigration issue. Issue dropped.

[COLGATE4]

9. What stats do you have to back up your assertion

that "Illegal immigrants are costing this country Billions of dollars"?

[BigD_95]

11. are you serious? Please tell me your joking

Im not even wasting my time do a google search.

Or you can just use common sense. When was the last time you went to a hospital? Were you ever in line behind any of these people that dont have insurance and never pay a bill? Or the Illegal immigrants that have kids that somehow get to go to our public schools? Like what kind of joke is that? They arent even supposed to be here yet go to school. The day they show up for class or for medical help they should be arrested. How about the Illegal immigrants that drive around with no car insurance or comment crimes?

Here I did do a search for you. I was wrong. Its Billions just in CAl.


North County Times

California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year, according to a new report released last week by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, a Washington, D.C.-based group that promotes stricter immigration policies.
Educating the children of illegal immigrants is the largest cost, estimated at $7.7 billion each year, according to the report. Medical care for illegal immigrants and incarceration of those who have committed crimes are the next two largest expenses measured in the study, the author said.

...

Jack Martin, who wrote the report, said Thursday that the $9 billion figure does not include other expenses that are difficult to measure, such as special English instruction, school lunch programs, and welfare benefits for American workers displaced by illegal immigrant workers.

"It's a bottom of the range number," Martin said.


http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000506.html

[Kali]

14. of course any honest analysis would include benefits, so your missing data

clearly shows the lack of objectivity in your assertions. Are you kidding me? Seems you are just kidding yourself.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kali]

22. common sense says there are costs and benefits to everything

people here "illegally" contribute too. The balance is debatable, there may be an over all monetary cost but ignoring the benefits in order to make them look worse than they really are is disingenuous.

Nevermind the humanity and social justice issues you conveniently ignore as well.

[Kali]

45. huh?

not sure why post 15 got deleted, yeah the viewpoint is offensive, but didn't seem against DU rules:shrug:

[WriteDown]

16. Look how well it's worked out for construction workers and dry wallers. nt

[Kali]

24. um, even the people you are demonizing are out of work right now

a lot of them have gone home, others are suffering the same if not worse

things are shit right now for many, many people. blaming migrants isn't going to fix that.

[WriteDown]

27. They are not migrant birds. They are illegal immigrants.

Our policy should mimic progressive places like Australia. Why would I hire a legal worker to hang my drywall for 1000$ when an illegal immigrant will do it for 300$? The fact that you don't see how it drives down wages is disturbing.

[Kali]

29. so go after the employer

not the workers' fault, is it?

[WriteDown]

30. Has to be a multi-prong approach. Employer and illegal employee.

Maximize efficacy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. Gee, I wonder how much in SS deductions are paid by illegals who have

fake SSNs, who will NEVER collect on SS?

And it is terrible how illegals never pay any sales taxes, or user fees, or anything of that sort.

BTW, many, if not most, of those 'children of illegal immigrants' are AMERICAN CITIZENS. They have every right to be educated here - if you can call what they are receiving an education. If it's in Texas, they'd be better off getting educated in their parents' country.

[WriteDown]

28. I know. Identity theft is good. nt

[Kali]

37. no it is not, and nobody is claiming it is

but go ahead and deliberately miss the point anyway

rarely is it identity theft in the classic manner - with credit rip-offs and all that, normally just using a SS number for employment - hence taxes paid to the system

anyhow yes that is a problem, and NOBODY is claiming is good

[WriteDown]

42. Please cite the evidence where it is usually only a SSN for employment. nt

[Kali]

48. be glad to look

after you cite some evidence saying otherwise

[WriteDown]

49. So you make a claim, and then ask me to disprove it?

Not how it works. Either put up or admit you made it up.

[Kali]

51. my claim is nobody is saying ID theft is good.

You show me where somebody claimed it was.

[WriteDown]

52. Sure.

Post 25 is all about how its great that illegals use fake SSN's to pay SS taxes. Obviously, he thinks it's a good thing.

Also, here is a tidbit of info.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22562690/'


Here's another fun one.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6814673/

[Kali]

63. Post 25

"Gee, I wonder how much in SS deductions are paid by illegals who have

fake SSNs, who will NEVER collect on SS?

And it is terrible how illegals never pay any sales taxes, or user fees, or anything of that sort.

BTW, many, if not most, of those 'children of illegal immigrants' are AMERICAN CITIZENS. They have every right to be educated here - if you can call what they are receiving an education. If it's in Texas, they'd be better off getting educated in their parents' country."

No it is not all about how great using fake SS #s to pay taxes and no it's not obvious he thinks even that is a good thing. I don't see anything about how great using fake SS # is. Just pointing out that there is income generated to the treasury by the action. (and by the way fake SS#s aren't the same as stolen ones - fake ones wouldn't hurt anybody) Acknowledging such does not in any way endorse it, I hope you can comprehend that. I also see two other facts ignored by you and others, about other income generated and the relationships many have to legal citizens.

Your first link contains this (bold highlight mine): "The government has "no solid numbers" showing either an increase or decrease in immigration-related identity theft cases nationwide, said Betsy Broder, assistant director in the division of privacy and identity protection at the Federal Trade Commission.But she said the agency has seen a rise in prosecutions of workers using other people's information to be employed, particularly for using fraudulent Social Security numbers."

Using the information to be employed. Particularly SS #s.

And while sometimes they are used for obtaining credit and other services it is still a small part of ID theft overall. "An (sic) Federal Trade Commission survey released last month showed identity theft for employment purposes comprised about 1 percent of identity theft cases nationwide, for an estimated 83,000 employment-related identity theft victims in 2005. People using a fraudulent identity to work often use it to also obtain utility services, government benefits, medical care and credit."

Utility services that they presumably pay for, govt and med services that they also presumably contribute to and credit they may well be enhancing, if they are like the hard working immigrant people I know. That does NOT mean I approve, just pointing out the reality.

So who is benefiting/committing the other 99% of ID thefts?

Your second link just goes to a latest breaking news page. (main headline: "Al-Qaida crippled,
CIA’s Panetta says")

and with that I'm done with this tiresome line of discussion

[WriteDown]

68. No solid #'s so we just don't know. And as the 2nd link stated....

We just don't WANT to know. To tell you the truth, anyone who has had their identity stolen knows that it is a heinous crime and any amount is too much.

[xsquid]

33. They are not fake ssn's, they are someone elses stolen ssn's.

Everyone we know are spanish speaking, most illegal (we are legal) and the illegals typically claim the max in dependents to get it in their checks as they cannot file. Someone gets stuck with the mess though, the ssn belongss to someone.

Illegal immigration is bad for the illegals. Why? I live in an area with many processing plants where lots work and while they can get medical insurance but will not work when their children are born because they don't want their children born to the person who's ssn they are using. To use their real names the insurance cannot be used. You have a married couple living together but they have ssn's of different people, its like they are not married. The unmarried mothers cannot have child support taken out from the fathers because the father's real name is on the birth certifcate and he is working under someone elses ssn. Underage children are dropping out, or not going to school, to work under someone older's ssn. Since it's illegal, many come here without their families and leave their families in their home countries. After a period of time many have families here....and there. It's unbelievable the havoc illegal immigration causes.

It really irks me that in the illegal immigration battle nobody considers the people themselves, they should be able to work here, if needed, and live as families, etc. I hear racism used a lot in the battle overe illegal immigration, but as far as I am concerned those for continuing illegal immigration are racists as they have no concern for the people. just someone to do the crap work and then get crapped on for it.

Sorry, this is an issue very close to me.

[RaleighNCDUer]

34. I believe you are somewhat confused about the SSNs.

If there is some Guatamalan guy in Arizona using my SSN, he is NOT going to use my name - it would never pass - he probably couldn't pronounce it. But if he has a card printed up with his name (or an alias) with my SSN on it, it will fly because 99.9% of employers NEVER check to see that the SSN is legit. Money that is deducted from his check is flagged to the SSN - which is, I know, identity theft, in that IRS records would show me working in NC and AZ at the same time - but I wouldn't ever collect the money he paid into SS using my number. It would just go into the IRS and not be paid out.

The SSNs being used are usually simply fakes. If they are actually tied to real people and are being used for getting credit cards (I've NEVER been asked my SSN when applying for credit, but of course it's been more than ten years since I stopped using credit cards - that may have changed) that is a different level of identity theft.

I don't get your reference to married/not married - having a fake SSN, or a fraudulent one, does not mean you aren't married. It just means that you don't get marriage deductions when filing your taxes. The fact is, even though most illegals PAY taxes through payroll deductions, few of them FILE for taxes, meaning they never get the refunds due them that most low-income people get. I'd bet the IRS makes billions off the labor of illegals, and THAT is what the post I was replying to was positing, that illegals cost the government so much, when I'm betting that it is probably more of a wash.

That said, illegal immigration is not right, and identity theft is not right. However, if there is a cost to it, it is not the fault of the illegal immigrants themselves nearly so much as it is the fault of the companies that hire them KNOWING that they are not eligible for legal work (thus they can exploit them in a thousand ways). That the labor of illegal immigrants drives down wages is the fault of those who give them the jobs at wages that are sub-par for the work, not of the laborers themselves.

I tend to believe in open borders, myself. If someone wants to come here to work, fine. If they want to come to become a citizen, that's fine too. One shouldn't be tied to the other. At the same time, if I want to live in Costa Rica because I'm tired of being cold in winter, I think I should be able to. People are people everywhere - it is borders that are the artifices.

[xsquid]

43. No, you are the one that is confused. Illegal papers cost

thousands each and that's NOT because they are invented numbers printed out. Just how many people in the US do you think have hispanic names? That being said do you believe everyone in latin american countries have hispanic names? They don't consider a latino to have bad papers just because the name on their papers is not hispanic. My first wife in mexico had a german name. Do you think the irs would not catch bad ssn's? A social security number does not just appear and not get caught by the irs. Why do you think illegals have different names at work than at home? It's because they are using someone's identity, period. Otherwise they would just use the persons name. Believe me I know how it works, I know a young lady that was also the local disk jockey, that got caught selling stolen papers.

Think about it. If the father of the child/children are working under a different name they can never have child support taken out as they are looking for him under his real name and he has no ssn. i know 2 different people that bought papers (at different times over the past decade or so) that started working and they started garnishing their wages. Thats a gamble buying someone elses id, if they are being garnished it looks like they are working.

Surely you understand they are working under different nanes, names associated with the ssn, and surely you can understand how that would affect things like children being born and the ability to find someone for child support.

[xsquid]

60. What I was trying to say above and don't know if it

came out jumbled is that you will NEVER see an illegal that is using a bought ssn use his own name, period. They ABSOLUTELY use the name that goes with the ssn. Pretty much everyone we know has a different name at work than at home. I shot pictures at bodas, bautismos, quienceanera's, etc. on the side till I retired and I had to make sure and find out the REAL names before I made the photo and video packages.

[guruoo]

35. They should have thought of that when they chose to abandon their own country

[Kali]

39. oh ffs

get a clue
"abandon their own country" jeezus fuck!

[guruoo]

44. They could have stayed and fixed their own country's problems, you know, like

we're trying to fix ours?

Yes, clue indeed!

[pampango]

47. Obama, organized labor, the progressive caucus, they all want to reform immigration laws

in a way that gives those here illegally a path to citizenship as one part of the reform. I know of no progressive organization (there may be some out there, but there can't be many) that does not seek a similar solution.

The obvious problem in proposing immigration reform is that they all know that Rush, Lou, Glenn, the Minutemen, the Tea Partiers and the republicans will unanimously oppose it and demagogue an "amnesty bill" for "illegals" just like last time. They (except for the Tea Partiers who weren't around then) killed it in 2007 and are undoubtedly salivating at the chance to do it again.

[Alexander]

70. So you used a right-wing think tank to back up your claims?

Are you serious? Please tell me you're joking.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

19. getting angy at symptoms...

Getting angry at merely one of many, many symptoms rather than the fundamental root causes is not the most effective nor efficient manner in realizing an social justice.

[guruoo]

38. I am assuming this is only counting legal Americans...

[Kali]

46. your charts show where the real blame lies

and it isn't poverty stricken, powerless people who "abandonded" their countries.

[guruoo]

54. Wonder why so many "poverty stricken, powerless" Americans choose to stay and

defend theirs instead of running off and leaving their
country's problems for others to solve?

[Kali]

66. a lot of them sit around and blame Mexicans, rather than fight or solve the real problems.

Just like the powerful want you to do.

[guruoo]

69. The powerful want to import them for cheap labor, and to help drive down wages across the board

If the tables were turned, what do you think they would say?

[pampango]

53. Those graphs prove that inequality and poverty have grown since we slashed taxes for the rich,

decimated our social safety net, deregulated our financial industry and corporations, and weakened our unions. How do they have anything to do with immigration? Europe has proven that you can have open immigration among 27 countries, some rich and some quite poor, and as long as you maintain progressive laws and governments citizens fare much better than in a country that fixates on immigration (so we don't have to share what little we have) while it does little to make society progressive for all.

[guruoo]

55. And the injecting of thousands of workers to the employment pool stretches thinner

what little social service resources we have left.

[Kali]

12. no, something needs to be done with the NAFTA and other economic policy - related

CAUSES of the migration. The movement of poor, desperate peoples is merely a symptom. No imaginary boundary reinforcements by technology or military means is going to solve the actual problems.

[WriteDown]

17. So before NAFTA illegal immigration was in check?

Interesting.

[Kali]

21. "in check"?

it certainly wasn't at the level of post NAFTA
I certainly wasn't affected like I have been since the mid 90s. Between NAFTA and Operation Gatekeeper, there has been such a drastic impact on this area it doesn't even compare. A freaking invasion of humans, the associated detritus, and idiots chasing them. Nevermind the escalation of criminality due to attempts to make everything illegal - war on immigration? Higher prices and risk for getting here. Doesn't stop anything or anybody, just makes it more expensive and dangerous. We never learn.

[2Design]

10. most are going back to their countries because there is nothing here now

[BigD_95]

18. worse statement ever

***most are going back to their countries because there is nothing here now - 2Design ****


Are you kidding me? when was the last time boarder police saw herds of Illegal immigrants returning home? Your living in a dream world. They still flock here day after day taking away our jobs and making the working class Americans pay more money for them in taxes and fees. If there wasnt Illegal immigrants our healthcare would be cheaper. Our school taxes would be cheaper. Our car Ins. would be cheaper, Our State and local taxes would be cheaper....etc.

Americans need to stand up and demand to fix this massive problem.

[Kali]

20. they don't look for them returning, all the roadblocks are "inbound"

a lot have gone home (not most, but there has been a HUGE reduction of incoming and apprehensions since the economy tanked - even the most rabid minutemen will tell you that)

[Lance_Boyle]

72. The US doesn't look for them returning. Mexico does, and how!

Mexico does not tolerate illegal immigration. Only illegal emigration.

Not many are getting south of the border illegally, and the majority of those that do are detained.

This really IS a one-way problem.

[2Design]

31. not a big deal - they are returning to south america, central america and mexico

look at all the Indian's around you taking your jobs at hotels, convenience stores, computers, etc - they are taking the high paying jobs not the Mexicans - a fence won't keep the high paying jobs here - the companies either outsource them or bring the workers here on h1b visas

[timo]

67. i disagree

I live here 6 miles north of the border, and yeah alot of those folks at christmas that were headed south were not coming back, you can tell because instead of hauling a pickup load of goods south, they are hauling bigger trucks n trailers of stuff, and I am NOT talking about the south american transmigrantes, very easy to tell the difference between the 2 groups of travelers.

and squids right there is NO checkpoint in the south bound lanes, pay your bridge fare and drive on.

[brooklynite]

23. How about if we let the Minutemen patrol...

...with virtual bullets in their guns?

[Kali]

26. goes well with their virtual penises

:rofl:

[hunter]

32. Cool. How long before this high tech stuff hits the surplus market?

I'm thinking I'd like some radar equipment to play with.

[guruoo]

36. Just build a wall and be done with it...

[RaleighNCDUer]

40. Your neat little chart should also have a line showing that there are

2.5 million fewer illegal immigrants today than there were three years ago.

If you just build a wall, how are they going to get out?

[pampango]

50. The American progressive solution - build a wall (kind of like the Chinese of a bygone era).

Parts of Eastern Europe were as poor as Mexico, but the EU did not wall them off to protect the richer Western Europeans. They admitted many of those poorer eastern countries into the EU (which allows for open immigration across national borders) in order to "spread the wealth".

Our solution is "We got it and you ain't gettin' it, so we're building a wall."

[SaintLouisBlues]

58. +1

[UTUSN]

41. K&R #6 for, now, ON to dragging the rest of it down!1

http://www.notexasborderwall.com/

[dipsydoodle]

56. US freezes funds for 'virtual' border fence with Mexico

Source: BBC News

The US is freezing funding for a "virtual" fence designed to detect people illegally crossing the Mexico-US border, after a series of problems.

US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said spending was being halted until the project was reviewed.

In addition, $50m (£32m) is being redirected to other tested technology.

The "virtual" fence, which currently just covers part of the Arizona-Mexico border, was designed as a network of cameras, sensors and radar.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8571953.stm

[LiberalFighter]

57. Create technology that stains their nose with blue dye that lasts 3 months.

Anyone thinking of crossing will think only once.

[Jamastiene]

61. I take it you've had your nose stained blue before.

If so, was it really that bad? If not, where did you come up with that idea?

[Jamastiene]

59. I predict more anti "furriner" hate to display itself on DU in this thread.

The place is crawling with pilgrims complaining about "immigrants."

[Kali]

62. I hate these threads

I expect that shit from my repukicon neighbors, but every single thread on DU gets infested with the same rightwing ditto dicks spouting the exact same talking points. And a lot of the same usernames will show up in climate change-denial posts too. Wonder why?

[Luciferous]

65. I don't have a problem with immigrants. I do have a problem with people

who blatantly break the law and come here illegally though.

[Kali]

74. If you are ever in southeastern Arizona, please look me up.

I would be happy to show you some things about the culture, environment and geography of this area. It might allow you to attain a better and more humane understanding of what is actually happening. Bring a passport because we will go across and see some things both along the border and a little further south and you will need it to get back into the US. We can do it in a weekend.

Kali's Quick Border Comprehension Tours! Wonder if I could find a way to make a little money on doing something like that?

[lonestarnot]

73. Talk about throwing money down the shitter!