Mother furious after in-school clinic sets up teen's abortion

[superconnected]

Source: Komo4news

SEATTLE -- The mother of a Ballard High School student is fuming after the health center on campus helped facilitate her daughter's abortion during school hours.

The mother, whom KOMO News has chosen to identify only as "Jill," says the clinic kept the information "confidential."

When she signed a consent form, Jill figured it meant her 15 year old could go to the Ballard Teen Health Center located inside the high school for an earache, a sports physical, even birth control, but not for help terminating a pregnancy.
.
.
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Jill says her daughter, a pro-life advocate, was given a pass, put in a taxi and sent off to have an abortion during school hours all without her family knowing.


Read more: http://www.komonews.com/news/local/88971742.html

---

I'm for abortion being a choice but this is shocking to me.

[superconnected]

1. Per the article it's legal. I'm just surprised girls can get then through their schools

Or at least the medical facilities on campus can set them up.

"At any age in the state of Washington, an individual can consent to a termination of pregnancy," he said."

And look, it's free if you keep it secret!

"We had no idea this was being facilitated on campus," said Jill. "They just told her that if she concealed it from her family, that it would be free of charge and no financial responsibility."

[uppityperson]

21. The clinic was county health dept only located in the school. Not "through their schools"

No, schools here don't give abortions. However, county health departments have reproductive health care as part of what they do. They have clinics in many schools. I doubt "They just told her that if she concealed it from her family, that it would be free of charge and no financial responsibility." Seriously doubt that.

Young women have the right to privacy in their reproductive health care in WA.

[struggle4progress]

198. ... Current Law on Abortion in WA State ...

RCW 9.02.100 Reproductive privacy--Public policy.

The sovereign people hereby declare that every individual possesses a fundamental right of privacy with respect to personal reproductive decisions.

Accordingly, it is the public policy of the state of Washington that:

Every individual has the fundamental right to choose or refuse birth control;

Every woman has the fundamental right to choose or refuse to have an abortion, except as specifically limited by this act ...

http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/120.htm

[Hepburn]

237. Great law...wish ALL states had that on their books. n/t

[marshall]

274. It's unclear to me how they define the term "woman"

The act defines the terms viability, abortion, pregnancy, physician, health care provider, state, and private medical facility.

There is no helpful definition of what the term "woman" means. Does it include any age? 14? 10? 6? Is there any age at which a "woman" is considered too young to have an abortion without consulting her parents?

[uppityperson]

275. In WA, if you can get pregnant, you have the right to an abortion without parental or spousal

notification. You have the Right to Privacy regarding reproductive health also, meaning no one can make you tell anything (unless there is a court order).

[defendandprotect]

376. But re the other issue, what's the age of consent re intercourse?

[uppityperson]

379. I found this.It depends on ages of both partners.16 if with adult, under 12 within 48 months older..

http://blog.laborlawtalk.com/2006/11/09/washington-age-of-consent-laws/

The age of consent is 16 in the state of Washington. This is the minimum age when a person of either sex may legally consent to sex with an adult, in most cases. It applies to both homosexual and heterosexual acts. When the older partner is in a position of authority over the younger, such as a sports coach or a teacher, the age of consent may be as high as 18 or even 21 years of age.

Washington uses a complex set of rules regarding age difference to determine the age of legal consent in relationships between teens. While most states have a policy of not prosecuting cases involving minor partners who are very close in age, Washington has elaborate statutes covering this policy. In general, children under 12 may legally consent to sexual activity only with people who are less than 48 months older. So, an 11-year-old boy could legally consent to sex with a 12-year-old girl, but not with someone who was 2 years and 1 month older than he is.

Under the Washington age of consent laws, children who are 12 or 13 can consent to sex with someone who is up to 36 months older. So, when the same boy turns 12, he could consent to sex with a girl up to the age of 15.

Teens aged 14 and 15 may legally consent to sex with someone who is up to 48 months older, under the Washington age of consent laws. So, when the same boy turns 14, he can consent to sex with an 18-year-old girl.

There are stiff penalties for violations of the Washington age of consent laws. Statutory rape involves voluntary sex with a person too young to legally give consent. First-degree rape of a child involves sexual intercourse with a person younger than 12 years if the offender is at least 24 months older, and carries a sentence of 5 years to life in prison. Second-degree rape of a child involves sexual intercourse with a person who is older than 12 but younger than 14 years of age, when the offender is at least 36 months older than the victim is. The sentence for this crime is also 5 years to life in prison.

Under Washington law, third-degree rape of a child involves sexual intercourse with a person age 14 or 15 if the actor is at least 48 months older than the victim. The sentence for this crime is up to 5 years in prison.

[defendandprotect]

383. Congratulations Washington State!! Highly intelligent laws!!

I've questioned the age because so much heat is focused on this young girl --

and very often they are involved with males as old as 21 --

But there should be no necessity for her to divulge who the partner was, of course!

Just trying to point out that no one is questioning whether HE didn't want to have a

pregnant 15 year old on his hands.

Otoh, it may have simply been someone her own age -- classmate -- and he might have

encouraged it? We don't really know.

I do hope it was her own decision and what she really wanted -- and it's obvious she

didn't wish to consult her mother.

Meanwhile, should this mother succeed in changing school policy on abortion, she should

consider what her daughter might have done otherwise . . . perhaps seek an illegal abortion?

If someone worries about "complications" of a legal abortion -- how much more would they

worry about complications of an ILLEGAL abortion!

Plus she would have had to have raised money for that -- which would have delayed the

abortion -- maybe weeks?


:)

Thank you for searching for that info -- !!

[xxqqqzme]

408. The religious rong keeps pushing parental notification on

California voters. It has been defeated each time in the last election cycles. They are trying again this year. It would criminalize doctors for not getting parental consent. And if the girl is a victim of incest - hey, too bad! Fuck 'em.

[LeftyMom]

2. "her daughter, a pro-life advocate" should read "her daughter, who tells her what she wants to hear"

[Blue_Tires]

63. Mom probably also believed the daughter was "saving herself for marraige"

[LynneSin]

212. Sounds like members of the Bristol Palin fan club

:eyes:

[saigon68]

316. Part of the ( RLRG) Reproducing Like Rabbits Generation

LOL

[FedUpWithIt All]

265. Which is exactly why the school should have limited their involvement to advisory.

It is possible the daughter would CONTINUE to tell the mother what she wants to hear. That is a pretty heavy potential liability issue for public schools to willingly walk into.

[LeftyMom]

299. Liability for what? The girl legally consented to a medical procedure and suffered no ill effects.

If something had gone wrong (which is very unlikely) the girl consented and was legally permitted to do so. The school was no more responsible for any consequences than the bus company would have been if she'd taken a bus to the clinic.

[FedUpWithIt All]

300. I was mistaken when i posted and did not realize the clinic was independent from the school

and that the mother had given consent.

I thought the story was referring a typical school clinic staffed by an RN.

[XemaSab]

320. If you don't want an abortion

don't get one.

[Regret My New Name]

350. Yeah... That part made me roll my eyes.

[leftofcool]

3. This is not good!

[Xenotime]

50. A woman has a right to choose. The mother needs to stay out.

Doesn't matter the age.

[liquid diamond]

54. This is bullshit. A young teenager is not a woman.

[bethfully]

92. How is it more crazy for a young person

(emphasis on young) to terminate a pregnancy than carry a child to term? Simply b/c the mother did not know? And how coercive a relationship does that mother have w/ her daughter do you think? There is no way that young woman (yes, woman) would have been allowed to make a decision about her own body. This isn't about the mom's feelings. This is about a young woman being allowed to make decisions for herself and her body. If she couldn't do that, then we're just talking forced birth, which is what the mom probably wanted, but that is a form of child abuse and why we have laws that make it legal for a young woman to terminate a pregnancy w/out the mom or dad knowing.

[uppityperson]

95. Welcome to Du. And thank you. eom

[Psephos]

119. She's a "young woman" in your eyes simply because you are pro-choice.

And you're talking about crazy in your post?

Crazy is when a school acts unilaterally in parentis locus to materially encourage a NINTH-GRADER to have an abortion without her mom even being told. A school???? BY WHOSE APPOINTMENT?

WTF would have gone down if there had been a complication?

The school IS NOT THE PARENT.

THIS is what happens when a political view becomes a cult. No absurdity is too extreme to be accommodated if it advances one's politics. When you attack and disenfranchise the fundamental relationship and bond between parent and child, you have sunk to the bottom.

BTW, I am pro-choice.

[uppityperson]

120. IT WAS'NT THE SCHOOL it was the county health dept clinic AND the law

"Crazy is when a school acts unilaterally in parentis locus to permit a NINTH-GRADER to have an without her mom even being told."

It wasn't the school but the county health dept clinic which was located on a school campus. NOT the school but the county health dept.

It is the LAW that allows her to get an abortion without notifying any parent.

READ the article rather than just the mothers "OMG!" headline. It was NOT the school. It was the county public health dept acting as they are LEGALLY bound to.

You say you are pro-choice, but you also are pro-parental notification. Those 2 positions are in opposition.

[Psephos]

123. From the article: "the Ballard Teen Health Center located inside the high school"

As I said previously, no absurdity is too extreme to embrace if it means advancing one's political ideology.

Meanwhile, your idea that one cannot be pro-choice without also being anti-parental notification is ridiculous. There are millions like me.

[uppityperson]

127. Pro-parental notification is not "pro-choice".

[Psephos]

134. Thank you for your opinion. n/t

[iverglas]

327. I'll thank you for your opinion

and I'll be sincere as I say it. ;)

It's a great opinion. State it often and firmly.

Children as chattel without rights and fetuses as people with rights, the flip sides of a very bizarre coin.

[awoke_in_2003]

420. +1 million. nt

[liquid diamond]

143. I'm with you.

[BolivarianHero]

424. www.freerepublic.com

You're as stupid as those people who blame Hugo Chavez for the drought in Venezuela.

[Thor_MN]

308. Try reading again without emmotions clouding the issue

The Ballard Teen Health Center is located inside the high school, but is not part of the school. It is a county agency.

[MattBaggins]

323. What if the parents are notified; say no way,

and the girl says I want an abortion and don't care what my parents say?

[iverglas]

329. of course, the more likely scenario:

What if the girl/young woman is told her parents are going to be notified, and the girl/young woman leaves the clinic ...

There's a young woman who isn't too likely going to go home and tell her parents she's pregnant, let alone that she wants to terminate the pregnancy. And we know the kinds of situations that leads to.

[zanana1]

366. Damn right.

If I had become pregnant in high school, I would have been kicked out of the house. I know that alot of parents are still that way. Young girls sometimes need protection from their parents, which makes notification dangerous for some of them.

[defendandprotect]

385. Exactly . . . beware . . . ILLEGAL ABORTION ahead . .

For those who worry about the "complications" of this legal abortion ...

imagine the larger complications that could occur with an illegal abortion!

PLUS, she would have had to pay for that -- and it might have delayed her

by weeks!

[iverglas]

404. or ... a pregnant teenager getting no assistance / care

Denial is a powerful thing, sometimes especially in teenagers. It's one reason they get pregnant, after all: risky behaviour, failure to anticipate consequences. All sorts of scenarios are possible, and do happen.

Ignores the pregnancy until it's obvious, then the kicked-out-of-house scenario, possibly. Or engages in risky behaviour while pregnant (e.g. alcohol consumption) that might have beeen avoided with prenatal attention, delivers a baby with medical problems. Manages to conceal pregnancy, delivers alone, abandons baby.

A teenager who is pregnant and does not want to inform her parents is at risk. Of all sorts of things.

It really isn't like requiring that parents be notified is going to eliminate risk from her life.

[defendandprotect]

409. Yes, many dangers ... Agree --

[awoke_in_2003]

419. the law of Washington state

says it is nobody's business but hers. Too bad all states aren't like that.

[liquid diamond]

142. That's exactly how I feel. The school has no right to make such

critical decisions for a parent's child. The law be damned. There ought to be boundaries.

[WinkyDink]

162. "The law be damned." May I get to pick and choose, too?

[liquid diamond]

182. You can disagree with any law you want. Have at it.

[Hepburn]

240. The parent signed the consent slip...

...so how did the school make the decision? :shrug:

[uppityperson]

243. "the school" didn't, the teen did, after getting a pg test in the clinic. eom

[donco6]

263. It was a clinic IN the school. The school doesn't run it.

Just to clarify.

We have one, and we have nothing to do with their policies. We just lease them space and they provide services.

[defendandprotect]

377. You can't force teenagers to discuss this with parents . . . had she been willing...

the parents would have known?

They offered a "free abortion" if parents weren't informed . . .

the teenager may have thought that not having to pay for it would be better.

But, had she wanted she could have told her parents this -- and still kept them

uninvolved, officially.

[uppityperson]

380. That is only what the teen's mom says.

My take is "it is free" AND "you don't have to tell anyone".

[defendandprotect]

386. Yes, I guess I picked up Mom's phrasing . . .

but what good would an abortion be to a teenager who didn't want to tell

her parents, but who also had to pay for it?

Useless, I'm guessing?

Concentration should be on what would have happened had this teenager not

had access to legal and FREE abortion. Where would she have gone?

And, what would she have done to get the $$$ -- and how long the delay?

Some might argue that she would have then consulted her parents.

We don't really know what would happen.

But, if it would have been my daughter, I prefer this kind of access which my

opinion is safer than any concept of parental control over her which could have

dire consequences.

:)

[awoke_in_2003]

422. They didn't make the decision

the pregnant young lady did.

[boppers]

361. Children are not property.

Pretty simple, parents don't get to treat their children as slaves, or incubators.

[defendandprotect]

381. She has CHOICE because she can get pregnant.... and she did . . .

"Mature enough for Motherhood, Mature enough for CHOICE" --

Now consider this . . .

Should parents like this one block this avenue to abortion, what will girls like

this do in the future? Search for an illegal abortion? Is that what you would prefer?


THIS is what happens when a political view becomes a cult. No absurdity is too extreme to be accommodated if it advances one's politics. When you attack and disenfranchise the fundamental relationship and bond between parent and child, you have sunk to the bottom.

No -- THIS is what happens when there is not a sufficiently strong relationship and bond

between parent and child which provides for the teenager to speak with parents -- one or

both.

You are presuming that in this case it existed -- if it had the teenager would have told her

mother.

My question is what is the age of consent for sexual intercourse in that state?

If it's less than 16, the partner should be found, perhaps?

Very often, the male sexual partner can be as old as 21 or more --


I'm presuming, however, that it is someone her own age.

But there is a male involved here -- and he isn't taking any of this heat.

What role did he play in this? Did the girl follow what he wanted done?


Many questions other than the one you're concentrating on ...

[Still Blue in PDX]

416. I agree. I am also pro-choice.

I am sure there are some cases where it would be inadvisable for a parent to be informed, e.g., if the parents are abusive, but that should be the exception, not the norm, and whatever protocols for suspected abuse should be followed.

[cap]

434. 'cept at the end of the day, it's the girl's life

when you want to mandate parental approval, you get into legislating waiting periods, a teen going before a judge to testify why she can't go to her parents, etc.

I used to work for Planned Parenthood. It's nice to think that every parent would have a rational conversation about complications and other health conditions before an abortion but it doesn't always happen that way. What you are asking for is mandating a teen go to a judge and ask for a waiver of parental notification. In those circumstances, you have to tell the judge that your parent will beat the crap out of you for getting pregnant. Not a nice thing to say about your parent. Often times, teens wait till the last possible minute to have an abortion.

As far as breaking that bond between a parent and a child, the child is already breaking away when he/she drinks, uses drugs, or has sex before adulthood. The child has already made his/her decision about whether or not to follow your guidelines. Children don't talk to parents about these issues because they are afraid of the repercussions.

By having sex, She's already put on her big girl panties.... or I should say, she took her little girl panties off and got into the big girl panties before they really fit her.

I think part of the sex ed talk has to be any known family history about any maladies of the female reproductive organs. Frankly, my chat about the birds and bees would involve my family's medical history. I would give out the literature up front and say here's the info in case you ever get yourself pregnant. Whether you tell me about it or not is up to you. I would deeply advise that we talk about this together. But if you can't come to me, go to your aunt or any other adult in a responsible position like the school nurse. Don't worry about the money... if you have to, tell the provider to mail the bill to your aunt or myself. We will work it out.

My attitude is you've just catapulted yourself into adulthood. Ready or not, there you are. If you don't want to tell me about it, I wouldn't be thrilled but I would understand. I would also get some family counseling going as to why we couldn't have discussed something like this as there are deeper issues involving our relationship.

Our Bodies, Ourselves is a motto that starts before adulthood. Not my child's body, my property.

[liquid diamond]

130. Your post is full of assumptions.

You don't know how the mother would have influenced this kid. Just how the fuck would the mom have forced her daughter to give birth? Lock her in a room for 9 months? Whatever decision is made, I believe the parent has a right to know what is going on with their child's health.

You like to mention the law. Well the law says a 15 year old is a minor, not an adult.

[uppityperson]

133. The law says a 15 yr old is legally able to make reproductive health decisions on her own, including

abortion. In this case, the law says she does not have to notify any parent.

[liquid diamond]

137. Xenotime called this minor a "woman". I was pointing out that

the law recognizes her as a minor. I'm pro-choice, but I don't agree with this law and neither do other posters in this thread.

[JonLP24]

146. I don't agree with a lot of laws

but I'm very glad this one is in place. If teens were required to notify parents in order to have an abortion a teen is fearful of her parents finding out may try an 'unsafe' abortion which likely could lead to the girl's death.

[uppityperson]

218. Pro-choice is for keeping the choice of a legal hygienic abortion vs back alley one

Pro-choice means keeping legal hygienic abortions legal rather than having the "choice" of an illegal back alley one.

That includes no mandated parental notification, no mandated spousal notification, no mandated "see the ultrasound then wait 3 days to realllllly make sure you want one".

[Dappleganger]

169. Agreed. A MINOR needs an advocate which is court-appointed if

there's an abuse situation or no parent/grandparent around.

[One_Life_To_Give]

190. Can 15yr old consent to Apendectamy?

Seems to me that when we can't trust kids to carry their own Asprin in school. Somebody other than themselves should be required to make the Legal decision. And if not the Parent/Guardian maintain such legal records documenting why such a decision was made to circumvent. IMO

[msanthrope]

194. Yes. 15 yr-olds can consent to medically appropriate therapy. n/t

[MattBaggins]

324. What if a parent says no

and the girl demands health care be provided per her personal choice?

[One_Life_To_Give]

353. Court Order

Wait for the parents to become unconscious and administer emergency lifesaving under presumed consent. That was in the 90's when I last certified First Responder/MRT. We used Presumed Consent for Emergency Measures. Technically we were required to stop if the patient or parent/guardian in the case of a minor refused treatment. In practice how would you know at a Car accident or shooting/stabbing that the person really was a parent/guardian.

Most of the time it wouldn't matter. But in those rare cases of complications resulting from a procedure. Acting without or in defiance of consent, can open personnel to a ton of liability.

[NashVegas]

217. Agreed. Mom Can Move to a Red State If She Has a Problem With That

We've got plenty down here.

[Hepburn]

239. +1,000! n/t

[TPaine7]

339. You should always agree with yourself

"This is about a young woman being allowed to make decisions for herself and her body. If she couldn't do that, then we're just talking forced birth, which is what the mom probably wanted, but that is a form of child abuse and why we have laws that make it legal for a young woman to terminate a pregnancy w/out the mom or dad knowing."

Is she a woman or a child?

Trying to have it both ways won't work. It makes it appear that she is whatever she needs to be to suit your purposes, from moment to moment or from sentence to sentence.

[elehhhhna]

159. IF SHE'S NOT A WOMAN SHE CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T BE A MOTHER

der

nice logic

[AngryAmish]

183. All caps wins the day, again!

[WinkyDink]

161. Her pregnancy would prove you wrong.

[msanthrope]

193. Children have rights, too. One of them is to not have their reproduction

completely controlled by adults.

[librechik]

321. gee, how did she get pregnant then?

She has a right to confidentiality--even from her mom.

[awoke_in_2003]

421. The law in the state

says it is nobody's business but hers. It is not my business, your business, or her parents.

[snooper2]

180. Really, so a 15 year old girl can also choose -

whoever she wants to have sex with?

Any guy of any age?

[Kali]

201. pretty much, YES she can

however there ARE laws preventing people of certain ages in having sex with other people under certain ages.

I don't believe there are laws punishing "minors" for having sex with "adults" only the other way around.

[uppityperson]

220. Yes, she can. The "adult" is the one that is legally in trouble, not the younger

in trouble if, for instance, a 40 yr old has sex with a 15 yr old. The 15 yr old is not legally in trouble for having sex with a 40 yr old.

Here are RCW things:

* RCW 9A.44.079 "A person is guilty of rape of a child in the third degree when the person has sexual intercourse with another who is at least fourteen years old but less than sixteen years old and not married to the perpetrator and the perpetrator is at least forty-eight months older than the victim. Rape of a child in the third degree is a class C felony."
* RCW 9A.44.076 "A person is guilty of rape of a child in the second degree when the person has sexual intercourse with another who is at least twelve years old but less than fourteen years old and not married to the perpetrator and the perpetrator is at least thirty-six months older than the victim. Rape of a child in the second degree is a class A felony."
* RCW 9A.44.073 "A person is guilty of rape of a child in the first degree when the person has sexual intercourse with another who is less than twelve years old and not married to the perpetrator and the perpetrator is at least twenty-four months older than the victim. Rape of a child in the first degree is a class A felony."

[Hepburn]

242. Yes...

...or she can choose a woman of any age.

The minor is free to choose ~~ it is an adult who engages in sex with a minor who has the problem, not the minor.

[Craftsman]

181. I have twin daughters

if they at 15 go through a potentially dangerous medical procedure I have the right to know before hand.

[Kali]

199. nope - it's not about you

THEY have a right to privacy about THEIR reproductive tracts - it's about a woman's womanly parts, sorry, NOT about her parents.

[Craftsman]

266. At 15 they are not women they are girls.

[Kali]

276. sexually active pregnant ones

and as explained endlessly in this thread, that changes the game

[uppityperson]

278. What is your definition of "woman"?At what point do they change from "girls"to "women"?

serious question

[defendandprotect]

388. If they are mature enough for motherhood . . .

then they are mature enough for CHOICE!

[MattBaggins]

325. What you say is something I agree with but the law does not

Your problem is with the WA state law that gives kids of 15 these rights. The school had nothing to do with it nor did the clinic violate the law.

The ones to be asked about are the legislators who passed the laws.

[defendandprotect]

389. So what if this young girl lived in a state which made access much more difficult . . .

Would new laws have forced this young teenager to an illegal abortion?

Is that what we want for the sake of control over teenagers?

[Titanothere]

425. womanly parts? Did you just say that?

So parents should be given absoutely no input into their childrens lives because they have their own parts?

As soon as this girl has her own job and takes care of herself and household, she can start making all her own personal decisions.

One of my babies doesn't like to eat, I don't just defer to his will, he eats whether he likes it or not because I'm his father and I'm looking out for him.

Why all this hate and disregard for parents in this thread? When did they become the enemy? Oh yeah, when they kept children from doing what they wanted. Who's the parent and who's the child around here?

[uppityperson]

427. I bet you call yourself "pro-choice" also, don't you?

[defendandprotect]

387. But what if they don't wish to tell you . . . do you want control over them or safety?

The safety of a legal choice of abortion -- or an illegal choice?

There are no guarantees as to what your children will do -- obviously

this mother had no idea what was going on with her own daugther!

And the daughter obviously chose not to confide in her mother or other

members of the family.


Consider how "potentioally dangerous" a legal abortion would be!!!

Is that what you want to impose upon young teenagers?

[AngryOldDem]

246. Bullshit. The kid is a minor. n/t

[defendandprotect]

390. Well, had the access been limited . . .

any question in your mind that this "minor" might have sought an illegal abortion?

What might the outcome of that have been?

Would the mother feel then that a lesser wrong had been done?

[joeybee12]

4. What? Shocking that this mother is an idiot?

The clinic is not part of the school.

The girl asked for an abortion...legally, in the state of Washington, parental consent or notification is not required.

Yeah, your daughter is a pro-life activist...until it happened to her.

[sandnsea]

5. This is what protecting teen rights looks like

I have mixed feelings.

[superconnected]

8. So do I. I'm very pro choice. I feel like the mom should have had a chance to talk to the kid though

instead she didn't even know. I think age should matter. I think the parents should know if say the kid is under age 16. It doesn't say how old she is here, just that it's legal at any age.

[sandnsea]

12. I oppose parental consent and notification

Although I certainly think it is preferable for the parents to be involved, in most cases.

My concern comes in when something goes wrong and the kids doesn't tell and the parent thinks that fever is a cold. And the psychological affects of sending my teen-ager to get an abortion in a cab.

But I can't think of a good solution to this problem. Except I really don't think school clinics should be involved in abortion in any way. There should be some county health clinic that can provide that info.

[uppityperson]

26. It was a county health clinic. I know of few, if any, schools in WA that have their own staffed clin

clnics. County health dept have health clinics in most schools that I know of and this was what this was.

I looked for a job as a school nurse in WA, none where I wanted to be. I worked Family Planning based out of a county clinic for a while. In WA, reproductive health care is privacy protected and available to all who are of reproductive age (I'm thinking 12 yrs old, but can't state for sure since it's been a few yrs and my head is full of other stuff).

"And the psychological affects of sending my teen-ager to get an abortion in a cab." She didn't get an abortion in a cab. She took a cab to the clinic to get one. Would it have been psychologically better to take a bus, or walk, or what?

[sandnsea]

40. Any clinic IN a school, or connected to it

should not be providing abortion information. I don't care if they're referred to the county health offices 3 blocks down the street, they need to be referred.

I have never seen a clinic in a school so I'm not really familiar with them. I'm guessing they're more than the school nurse.

As I said, I oppose parental notification but I do see problems with it. What does a girl do if she gets a fever? Is there someone she can call without worrying about payment? Is there someone to confide in if the girl gets upset? These issues should be resolved and then we wouldn't have girls taking cabs or buses or bicycles, to get abortions.

[uppityperson]

43. School clinics in WA are often county health dept run. This is one of the things they do, reproducti

reproductive health care, including contraception and abortion referrals. This is what they do. They also typically have a basket of condoms for free. Yes, they are far more than "the school nurse". Most schools don't have a "school nurse" anymore.

"What does a girl do if she gets a fever?" She calls the clinic she got the abortion at, or they give her instructions of what to do if this happens. Like everywhere else.

"Is there someone she can call without worrying about payment?" Payment? I am sure reproductive health care workers have a list (we used to) of who provided abortions, cost, ways of getting around the cost if it were an issue.

"Is there someone to confide in if the girl gets upset?" I assume you mean at the abortion. Yes, usually the nurse, some places have counselors also. All of whom are trained in dealing with issues related to pregnancy, abortions, reproductive health care, family issues.

[sandnsea]

48. Contraception fine, abortion no, jmo

"instructions of what to do". What are those instructions? And can she call for help without worrying about paying MORE money, after she's paid for the abortion? And if they say, go to the hospital, how does she get there if she has no money? And can she call the clinic counselor, without worrying about paying MORE money? I just think it's irresponsible to allow a girl to have an abortion without every one of these areas covered. And it should include not sending a teen-ager off to an abortion clinic alone.

[uppityperson]

75. Every clinic gives post surgical instructions. Have you ever had surgery or seen a doctor recently?

Going in for sinusitis last week, I got a list of instructions, if I got worse, etc. Same thing.

Yes, she can call the clinic for followup, most clinics include a followup visit.

Yes, it would be irresponsible to allow anyone to have an abortion without all of those areas covered, which is why clinics that do abortions include them.

As far as going to a clinic alone, that is up to the person. If they chose to go alone, they go alone. If they chose to include a friend or family member, that is up to them. Not mandated by law but up to them.

You seriously believe a public health department should be prohibited from giving a referral for a legal procedure? As QuakerBoy says below "I have trouble thinking of a reason why they should not be able to make a referral to a qualified clinic if a female, legal to have an abortion, asks where they can have that done. Can you?"

[sandnsea]

81. Instructions to a teen-ager is not enough

That's absurd. If they did any other surgery on a 14 year old and just sent her home with "instructions", we'd call it malpractice. It's absurd.

You didn't answer any question about additional cost.

You sidestep the fact that the public health department in question is at a school.

And you just say oh well, a teen-ager who may have been raped or molested, doesn't have to choose to go alone. I know you aren't that callous.

There is such a thing as recognizing areas that need improvement, without requiring a total repeal of current practice. If these issues were addressed, they wouldn't get much movement for a repeal of these laws in the first place.

[uppityperson]

89. No additional cost. You ask what instructions, now "not enough".

Yes, she can call the clinic for followup, most clinics include a followup visit. No additional cost. Followup is included in the whole deal.

You ask "What are those instructions?" I tell you and you "instructions to a teen-ager is not enough." If instructions are not enough, what is? Seriously? Counseling, education, instructions are given. That is "not enough"?

I have never "sidestep the fact that the public health department in question is at a school." OBVIOUSLY it is at a school. However, it is not RUN or STAFFED by school employees but by county health department employees. The school employees have NOTHING to do with the clinic, the county health department does. "sidestep"? W.T.F?


"And you just say oh well, a teen-ager who may have been raped or molested, doesn't have to choose to go alone." BS. I said a teen who choses to go alone goes alone. One who choses to involve friends or family can take them, but that is by choice. Not by legal mandate.

You seem to have a problem with someone going for an abortion by themselves. It happens. Often. Females of all ages. You seem to have a problem with believing that a person getting an abortion can have adequate counseling, education, to allow them to watch for ill effects after an abortion. You seem to be saying this, then complaining when I answer you, that I haven't answered you.

This is the law here, and I am fighting to keep abortions safe and legal. WA law give Right to Privacy to anyone 15 or older, meaning NO parent or guardian has ANY legal right to ANY type of notification of ANY health care procedure or care. WA law gives right to privacy for ANY pregnant female, irregardless of age.

I live in WA and I like this. You don't live here and have no right to try to change our laws.

[sandnsea]

98. A human being is enough

And yes, I have a problem with a MINOR going for an abortion by herself.

And I never said I want to change the notification laws, we don't do parental notification in Oregon either. I said I thought we could make the situation better for teen-age girls who need an abortion. How horrible of me.

Have a nice evening.

[uppityperson]

105. You seem to be saying this&that, then complaining when I answer you, that I haven't answered you.

Would you have a problem with a MINOR going for an abortion with a friend? HOW would you mandate making "the situation better for teen-age girls who need an abortion"? Pass a law saying she needed to take a friend?

No, you have problems with anything I answer. Including instructions post procedure (what instructions? not enough for a teen-ager....)

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

114. bull shit. You did. I am frustrated with you, and you insult me again.

[KittyWampus]

359. "every clinic gives post surgical instructions". DU'ers say often girls' brains aren't fully

formed and make poor choices. A girl who has had an abortion without parental notice who then has symptoms may just decide to ignore them so as not to alarm her parents.

[quakerboy]

77. Why not?

Qualified medical personel should be restricted from any mention of a particular legal procedure?

I have trouble thinking of a reason why they should not be able to make a referral to a qualified clinic if a female, legal to have an abortion, asks where they can have that done. Can you?

[sandnsea]

83. Send them to the county health department

that is not affiliated with the school, and let them make the referral there. Sorry, I just think there are limits and this is one of them. I don't think the school counselor or a teacher should make a direct referral either. Ideally there would be a true teen helping place so that no girl has to go through this alone either.

[quakerboy]

86. So what should they do?

The counselor, teacher, or the county health department location at the school, I mean. What should they do when they are asked point blank by a student "How can I get an abortion, my mom will really kill me if she finds out I've been doing it"?

[uppityperson]

90. Simple. Don't tell her. Don't tell her where to go to find out either because that is a referral

and that is wrong.

argh argh argh. Thank you quakerboy, seriously, thank you.

[sandnsea]

94. Send Her To The OFF CAMPUS Health Department n/t

[quakerboy]

99. They DID

She did not, as I read the article, have an abortion on campus.

[sandnsea]

106. No, I mean for consultation

The school shouldn't have given her any consultation on abortion. I just don't think abortion belongs at high schools. And I think if the girls were going to an off campus location, they wouldn't be taking cabs to get abortions either.

[uppityperson]

113. How do you know they "wouldn't be taking cabs"? WTF? The school did NOT give any info

that was the county health department, NOT the school.

No girl would take a taxi unless they were leaving from school? What?

[quakerboy]

132. Nowhere in the Article does it say they did

All we have is the mothers implication. Nowhere does it indicate that the Health Clinic at the school run by the Swedish Medical Center ever said word one to this teen regarding Abortion.

I would argue that they should in no way be prohibited from doing so.

But nowhere in the article does it say that they did. Other than the mothers assertion, based off of the same information that lead her to believe that her daughter is a "pro life advocate".

So... things that are not established by anything other than 2nd hand anecdote
1 Whether the daughter received a referral, recommendation, or even basic information from anyone associated with the school for abortion services.
2 Whether the school actually provided a pass
3 Whether the school or anything associated with it provided a cab ride anywhere
4) come to think of it, all we have is the mothers word that the daughter even had an abortion in the first place.

All along the chain of events, the reality of what happened is very questionable.
Did an abortion happen, or is this whole thing cooked up by a liar to push an agenda
Assuming the abortion happened, did the school have anything to do with it? Was a cab procured by the daughter or the semen donor, or did the school or health clinic provide it. And if they did, was it provided for abortion, or under general terms not specifically related. Was the supposed school pass for an abortion, or was it just provided because the daughter claimed a health issue that needed to be seen at an off site location? Did the on site health clinic recommend an abortion, or were they approached and asked for one, and merely told her that they could not do it, whereupon she googled where she could have it done, and asked for a school pass?

I doubt that whoever she talked to at the location the procedure was done, nor whoever she spoke to at the school or at the onsite health clinic can legally present their part in all of this. So all we have is the mothers interpretation of what the daughter told her.

That said... If it is a legally protected right, why should any medical professional be prohibited from providing basic information to someone who comes to them and asks? Whether it was an offsite location, an independent clinic on school grounds, or the school nurse themselves would not seem to matter in the least.

[uppityperson]

135. I stand in awe. Thank you.

[defendandprotect]

395. Intelligent questions . . . we should all think about . . .

vs what the Mother is reporting -- !!!

[MattBaggins]

328. It seems they did what you demand

So what do you do when a girl comes in and says "I'm pregnant and intend to get an abortion and will not notify my parents can you help me to do this safely or should I look this up on the internet?"

What would you tell such a girl?

They sent her to an off campus clinic to receive health care she wanted as they are required to do by law.

[defendandprotect]

394. Well, if girls in highschools can get pregnant, why shouldn't discussion of

those events -- and abortion -- also be discussed in highschools?

What you're trying to do is make it more inconvenient for truth to reach this

girl -- more inconvenient for her to access an abortion. Why?

Don't get your "cab" comment either ... ??

[uppityperson]

100. No. here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4317304&mesg_id=4317653

[uppityperson]

91. The. County. Health. Dept. IS. affiliated. with. the. school.

WHAT county health dept should she be sent to since the county she lives in IS the one affiliated with the school? And isn't that a referral in itself?

How can the county health dept that is running the clinic on school grounds refer a person to (not) themselves to refer her to somewhere else?

Ideally there would be true understanding between everyone involved and their friends and families so no girl has to go through this alone. But this is the real world. Which is why health care providers spend so much time providing counseling, listening, education, when doing reproductive health care with teens.

[sandnsea]

93. The One That Isn't AT The School n/t

[uppityperson]

97. it is the same county, same county health dept. Or do you mean the facility?

So county health nurse X can not refer girl C to a place that provides abortions, but can only refer girl C to visit the "other" clinic nurse X works at. Then, when girl C visits nurse X at the "other" clinic, nurse X can THEN refer girl C to a place that provides abortions?

Stay in Oregon, please.

[sandnsea]

103. Yes, OFF CAMPUS

Abortion discussions do not belong on high school campuses.

[uppityperson]

108. And there we have it. "Abortion discussions do not belong on hs campuses".

Wrong. Very very very very wrong.

[sandnsea]

111. Which I said at the very beginning. Pay attention. n/t

[uppityperson]

118. Schools are about education. Maybe you missed that. It is a good place to talk

about health care, including reproductive health care.

[musette_sf]

363. + 1

[WeekendWarrior]

115. That's patently absurd

Girls that age should have readily available counseling on a whole host of matters, including pregnancy. Where do you expect the girl to go? I think the school is providing a wonderful service -- EDUCATION. Which is their job.

[sandnsea]

153. Pregnancy counseling, sure, I never said otherwise

REFERRALS for abortions, no. I just don't think that belongs at school. I also think minors should not ever be put in a position to get an abortion alone and not have a personal contact they can rely on through the entire process. It's not responsible. These are kids, not adults.

[WeekendWarrior]

171. If it's legal for a minor get an abortion without parental consent

then it's absolutely fine for her school to refer her to a clinic, if she so wishes.

[uppityperson]

215. I do not think you have an understanding of what happens when a person gets an abortion.

They are typically referred by another clinic who has done a pregnancy test and counseling, though can self refer with their own pg test (clinic usually does one there though also). They do an intake, which includes health history, counseling as to options, education as to what the procedure entails and what to watch for afterwards as well as other follow up issues (including contraceptives to prevent another pregnancy).

If the person still wishes to have the abortion, it is done by a couple people, one actively doing it, one providing support to that person and the person having the abortion. There is a period of recovery afterward when she is checked frequently by a nurse or other such person. Follow up care, what to watch for, medicines that may be prescribed, etc, is gone over again afterward before she is released. She leaves with printed material, including the date and time of the follow up appointment and names/numbers to call (for free) if she has issues or concerns.

If she wishes a friend to come along, that is fine. If not, she is still not alone, she has a lot of personal care (not just physical but emotional and spiritual if she wishes) and a lot of education is done.

I don't know what your experience with getting an abortion in the last 20 yrs has been, but every clinic I've worked at, volunteered at, or accompanied a friend to, it has worked like this.

[greiner3]

145. Why not?

That could very well be where she got pregnant!

[Hepburn]

245. You are kidding, right?

Keeping kids in the dark about reproduction ~~ always the right thing to do.

:sarcasm:

[Codeine]

101. Why? What is the difference?

Why put the girl through hoops? She's scared and wants medical advice. Trained providers are there. do it.

[sandnsea]

104. Schools should not be in the abortion business

It's a bad idea on every level imaginable.

[uppityperson]

110. Well, good thing schools aren't in the abortion business.

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

112. They are in Washington n/t

[uppityperson]

116. You must not have read the OP or any of the posts here. Or else you have a bigger problem

I feel sorry for you. Hope you get the help you need. Stay in Oregon, please.

[Kali]

121. you got accused of being drunk?

not from where I'm reading. Jeebus! obtuse much?

[uppityperson]

122. Yup. Odd.

frustrated, yes, and I did the deed on that post like I'm supposed to do.

I guess having worked in the field, I find I have more of an idea how it all goes, what types of people are involved (all types), etc etc etc.

[Kali]

144. I understand the normal parental fear of somebody "doing something to my child" with out my consent

or even knowledge, but this isn't about "caring parents" its about a pregnant woman's rights. If a daughter is in the right place in the relationship with the parents she can tell them. Otherwise it just isn't their business.

It is something parents need to understand about raising daughters. It is very primal, really. She's IS a woman if she is pregnant. On that issue she gets to make the call. It is officially and biologically too late to intervene in her decision.

[uppityperson]

205. I do also and had to face the "15 yr olds have privacy" issue with mine also

It was difficult, but we got through it.

And yes, reproductive health care is a VERY touchy issue (no pun intended) for everyone.

[KittyWampus]

360. Having sex and getting pregnant makes a 13 year old female a woman. Sure.

[uppityperson]

370. Try this post, good explanation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4317304&mesg_id=4321854

[defendandprotect]

396. No . . . but it certainly doesn't mean that it makes her fit for Motherhood . . .!!!

Mature enough for Motherhood --

Mature enough for CHOICE -- !!

[Codeine]

117. School medical centers should be in the medical business.

Abortion is a simple medical procedure and falls well under that rubric. Don't make it bigger than it is.

[Jax]

414. Schools are NOT in the abortion 'business', FUCK that lying right wing crap.

Ride out with the windandtide...

been there.

enough.

Alyce

[defendandprotect]

393. Is the County Health Department in the school too convenient?

Should we make it more difficult?

What are the "limits" you're talking about?

You want to bar teachers and counselors from mentioning abortion or acknowleging it?

What "true teen helping place" -- like one of the "pro-life" centers that could lie to her?

Misinform her -- ?

The teenager had a choice to tell her mother or other family member -- or a friend --

We don't actually know who she may have consulted, or not. But the choices in these matters

are hers.

No one can force a teenager to divulge their experiences or pregnancy to a parent!

To confide in them - that depends on who the teenager feels comfortable with - who she trusts.

[defendandprotect]

392. What are you saying, that the access is too lenient? Make it tougher?

What if the access had been much more difficult --

What if the teenager had decided to seek an illegal abortion, instead?

What's more important, control over a teenager or safety?

How much safety in an illegal abortion?

PLUS, the costs which presumably would also have delayed the abortion maybe for weeks or more?

I'm sure wherever the legal abortion was done, they provided her with information on what to

do if any problem occurred -- like returning to the clinic.

[Luminous Animal]

415. Abortion information is legal information about reproductive health.

So yes, it does belong in a school.

[Dappleganger]

167. At that age I think there should be a court-appointed guardian

to help a MINOR child make those decisions and ensure she gets the RIGHT kind of care both during and after the procedure. This is only if there is abuse involved, otherwise at least a parent or adult relative needs to advocate for the MINOR.

[sandnsea]

187. Even a volunteer, like CASA

Doesn't have to be court appointed, just some adult to help them through the process and make sure they're okay all the way through. I think people here are responding to the poster, not the actual thoughts in the posts. I can't believe they would be this callous to the needs of a teen-age girl otherwise.

[MattBaggins]

331. There... are... nurses... and... counselors... at... clinics ---> they are ADULTS

Here's a big surprise: they care about the well being of the patients and discuss the issue with them.

They don't just blindfold them and them push them out a backdoor when they are done.

[uppityperson]

222. THIS is the scenario you would like?

A 15 yr old gets pregnant and wants an abortion. She has to file with the court to get a court-appointed guardian to "help her make those decisions". She has to wait for the court to appoint a guardian, then for the appointed guardian to get around to meeting with her. The guardian has to investigate the family, the friends, the impregnating male (whom the girl has admit to), make a decision if there is abuse involved or not, then make a report back to the court as to what the guardian has found, what reproductive health care is available, what the guardian thinks is the RIGHT kind of care.

Then the kid can get a referral to get an abortion.

However, in WA, a 15 yr old is NOT a MINOR as far as reproductive health care is concerned.

[MattBaggins]

330. Why? Seriously why?

What is a "guardian" going to do besides use their own personal ideals to make a decision for the woman? Do you really think that some Joe Schmoe with God knows what for an education is better qualified than doctors, nurses and counselors to discuss a medical procedure? Do you think the girl just went into the clinic grabbed a number and just waltzed into a back room with no one counseling her first? You think the counselors at the clinic are idiots?

[defendandprotect]

397. Right like maybe some priest or judge? They're all trustworthy??!!!

I would venture to say that if the clinic thought there was any reason for aftercare

it would have been suggested and provided. Normally, there is not.

Again, Roe vs Wade isn't about mothers, fathers or grandmothers -

it is about the rights of a pregnant female.

This young teenager was, of course, completely free to confide in anyone she wished --

family or friends.

That she did not confide in her Mother is telling --

[hedgehog]

177. "I can't think of a good solution to this problem " +1

I'd like to think that the girl would get honest counseling as to all of her alternatives with a promise of protection from her parents should she say, want to carry to term and put the child up for adoption or keep the child or have an abortion. I wouldn't favor abortion myself, but if a girl wants one, she will get one so it might as well be done safely.


The problem is, would a teenager choose to go through couseling or instead give her friend's cousin's buddy $50 to do it no questions asked?

Maybe the solution is to ensure that schools have on-site county provided day care and open adoption services so that all the options are really there.

[MattBaggins]

326. This was a county health clinic in the school that refered the girl to an outside clinic

when the girl asked for a service that the legislators of WA gave her the right to ask for through the legislative process.

[awoke_in_2003]

423. It was a county run facility

in the school (but independent of it). As far as telling the parents- what if the father gets mad and smacks the hell out of her. Or, decides to kick her out of the house?

[dflprincess]

14. Ideally a girl should be able to go to her mother or another adult

I think this mother needs to ask herself why her daughter didn't come to her first.

[notadmblnd]

31. i think the mother should ask herself why she doesnt know where her daughter is

and what she is doing?

[badgerpup]

47. Was a teenager once meself...

...and if I'd been in that situation ("Oh SHIT I'm knocked up...NOW what do I do?")
I certainly would not have gone to my mother for advise, consolation or consent...

How many other people had divorced parents who were going through their own crises (as in 'more than one') and the teenaged kids were given the impression they were just one MORE problem in the mix?

Most of the time one just tried to stay OFF the parental radar as much as possible and do one's own thing, right? :shrug:

[Dappleganger]

172. My feelings exactly.

Jesus, I've been talking with my girls about sex and pregnancy prevention since they started their periods and we talk about it often (had another one this morning on the way to school, big brother was included LOL).

That mother should be ashamed that her daughter didn't feel comfortable enough to go to her with the biggest crisis in her life. I know that if it happened to one of mine I'd want to be there in support in whatever capacity they'd allow.

[hamsterjill]

196. Well said!

I, too, concur with several up posts that there simply isn't a good answer for this situation, but I think you've hit on a very important component.

[Mad_Dem_X]

253. +1 Exactly!

[Lasher]

258. What a total ration of shit. n/t

[defendandprotect]

398. + 2 Exactly . . .!!!

[Kali]

236. the mother had 13 or 14 years worth of chances to talk to her

too late now

well, not too late to talk but to late to control her reproductive decisions - the daughter already usurped mom by having sex - that is when the parental "notification" failed. Not the school, clinic, legal system - they are working fine. The problem is with the mother and her relationship to the daughter, period.

[gkhouston]

304. If the daughter doesn't want the mom to know in advance, I'd say that speaks

volumes about the quality of their relationship, and maybe it's a good thing the parents don't have a say in what's going on.

[foxfeet]

6. Something doesn't add up.

If the daughter is, as described, a "pro-life advocate," she could have objected to the procedure herself. Why would she just blithely get into a taxi and go off to have an abortion?

[superconnected]

9. Clearly the kid pulled the wool over the monthers eyes, or the person writing the article got it

wrong.

[quakerboy]

88. Yup.

This story, as written, was presented from one side. The mothers one side of a 20 sided die, as it were. And most of the others, I suspect, are legally gagged and unable to present their side. And the daughter is not likely to present anything to contradict Mom, whether that means letting truth go unknown or not.

[nodehopper]

173. haven't you ever read articles about pro-lifers getting abortions or bringing

their kids to have abortions, and then being back to picketing in front of the same clinics later that week? What people say and how they behave isn't always consistent, amazingly enough...

[dchill]

7. I'm thinking there HAS to be a lot...

more to this story. None of it good, I'll bet.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

11. i think you are right

lets see what comes out over time on this one

[Ozymanithrax]

10. Her daughter was pro-choice by her acts. She chose to have sex...

and chose to terminate her pregnancy.

When should children have the right to make that choice?

[Lasher]

13. This is just wrong.

School officials should not conspire with students to keep secrets from parents. But it does go on and it's wrong.

[dflprincess]

15. There are situations when the parents need to be kept in the dark

that's why many, if not all, of the states who require parental notification have either "trusted adult" or a judicial bypass option for girls who can't go to their parents.

[Lasher]

49. How does that work? n/t

[liquid diamond]

55. Why do parents need to be "kept in the dark" about their child's health?

[dflprincess]

60. Oh when the child is in an abusive situation and

daddy or maybe Mom's boyfriend is the father of the child she wants to abort.

Or when she fears that Mom or Dad might become violent if they find out she's pregnant. "Honor" killings are not entirely unheard of in the U.S.

Or maybe mom and dad are just incompetent perhaps they're addicts or alcoholics and the girl, for all intents and purposes, is on her own.

[liquid diamond]

136. In the first situation,

"daddy" or mom's boyfriend needs to be exposed for the monster that they are. The mother should know that her husband or boyfriend had sex with their child.

Honor killings aren't all that common here. I'm amazed a kid raised in that culture would risk having sex knowing that their family members would kill them.

Just because a parent is an addict doesn't mean their child's health should be withheld from them.

I'm pro choice, but I don't agree with these "teen protection" laws.

[dflprincess]

203. Honor killings would be the extreme

there are plenty of abusive parents of all persuasions who would make a young woman's life miserable and force her to continue an unwanted pregnancy as a punishment. And, in our society, kids have more factors influencing them than just their parents and teenagers have been known to act without thinking through the consequences.

A parent who is addicted to drugs or alchohal is not a fit parent. Having an addicted parent is a form of emotional abuse and the addicted parent, just like a parent who is intentionally cruel, has abdicated their responsibility to their children and really should not be the ones to have the final say in what a daughter does about an unwanted pregnancy.

Yes, in cases of rape or incest, the mother should know what's going on. But sometimes they don't and, too frequently, they turn a blind eye or go deep into denial about what is going on. A parent like this is who the girl is suppose to be able to trust enought to go to?

Children are not property and not everyone who is a parent is fit to be one.

[uppityperson]

19. Read the article. It was co health dept program, not "school officials" and besides, in WA

T.J. Cosgrove of the King County Health Department, who administers the school-based programs for the health department, says it's always best if parents are involved in their children's health care, but don't always have a say.

"At any age in the state of Washington, an individual can consent to a termination of pregnancy," he said.

[Lasher]

46. I didn't say it was illegal, I said it was wrong.

They let her out of school and they kept that from the parents. You're not going to make that right by trying to imagine some way the school officials would not have been responsible. They were.

[uppityperson]

In WA, 15 yr olds have right to women's health care confidentiality&treatment

It is ILLEGAL to inform the parents. That is the law. And the clinic was run by the county public health department, NOT the school officials. That is the reality.

Schools contract with county public health departments to have clinics in school. The public health department providers are restricted BY LAW from informing parents without the kid's written approval.

That is the law.

No school officials conspired to keep something from any parents. I don't care what the mother thinks, or you believe, they did not.

[joeglow3]

191. Does this apply to ANY OTHER health issues?

That is my problem with this. Can a 15 year old get breast implants without parental consent? Can they get ANY OTHER medical procedure without parental consent.

Obviously, protections need to be put in place for parents that are abusive, but that should be the exception and not the rule. It is bullshit that my rights and role as a parent is undermined because someone else I don't know is a piece of shit to their kids.

[uppityperson]

210. For a 15 yr old, yes, they have complete right to privacy with health care issues in WA

there is a right to privacy regarding abortions no matter the age, and a right to privacy with ALL health care issues once you are 15. It can be difficult to deal with, having been a parent with a teen I know that.

It makes for parents to try and work things out with their kids so they will voluntarily talk with them, rather than mandating it. My kid was seen for I still don't know what when 16 and I have no legal right to ever find out what. However, my kid has told me about most of it, voluntarily. It was difficult, but it is the law.

[joeglow3]

234. Ironically, I would disown my kid if they did something withOUT consulting me

I would not literally disown them, but I would be a LOT more pissed than if they discussed it with me and then made their choice. Ironically, I could make the opposing argument that others may no be as mellow as I am and this law will in fact lead to just as many cases of abuse.

[Hepburn]

251. Big tits are not...

...a "healthcare issue."

[MattBaggins]

332. No they were not responsible in any way shape or form

They most likely had no clue.

Child: "May I go to the clinic? I am feeling ill"

Teacher: "What is the problem?"

Child: "I don't want to discuss it"

Teacher: "That is your right so go ahead and go to the clinic"


Nurse: "We have sent the girl off campus for medical treatment"

Teacher: "What is wrong"

Nurse: "HIPPA prohibits me from telling you"

Teacher: "OK"

[quakerboy]

79. Parents should not so alienate their children that they feel secrets must be kept from them.

No?

A couple points past that.
A) not school officials
B) not conspiring
C) not secret from the parents. Medical, confidential, not parentally specific.

I think pretty much all the points of your assertion are wrong

[Lasher]

184. That's pretty naive.

When teens keep secrets do you think it is always because parents have alienated them? Do you think parents are always to blame if such a mindset exists in their children? If so, you know little about teenagers.

A) not school officials

splitting peas

B) not conspiring

"They just told her that if she concealed it from her family, that it would be free of charge and no financial responsibility." - This fits the dictionary definition of conspiring.

C) not secret from the parents. Medical, confidential, not parentally specific.

The girl was given a pass to leave the high school campus. Parents were not informed of this. Look up 'secret' in the dictionary. I did.

Parents or legal guardians are the stewards of their children. This is a child, not an adult by any coherent definition. I am not challenging the notion that the girl had a legal right to get an abortion without her parents' consent or knowledge. What bothers me is, the school helped facilitate it and conspired with her to keep it secret from her parents.

OK let's say Dick Cheney is giving a speech nearby and the school is planning a day trip to take all the students to see him. And let's say your 15 year old daughter wants to go but you don't want such an impressionable youth exposed to the ideology of this man and his followers. You tell her she can't go but the principal lets her go anyway, and agrees with your daughter that neither of them will tell you. Do you think that would be wrong?

[MattBaggins]

333. Point B is assuredly made up bullshit

The girl was most likely given a pass to go to "see the nurse" and at that point responsibility was passed to the clinic and the school would not have any other knowledge than that the girl was sent out for further medical care. HIPPA would prohibit the school officials from knowing anything at all.

There was no conspiring. That is certainly made up.

[uppityperson]

348. I see Point B as confused communication since they most likely told her it would be free AND

she had the legal right to privacy, even with her parents.

Now her mother says "They just told her that if she concealed it from her family, that it would be free of charge and no financial responsibility."

Ever play the game "telephone" where someone passes a message along and by the end it is nothing like the original? Besides not trusting the mother, there is a good chance that miscommunication has come through.

[TheMadMonk]

87. Because 1000 parents pissed off at a faceless bureacracy is fair exchange...

...for the girl not murdered or thrown into the streets by a lunatic parent.

And I'd doubt the exchange rate is anything like that favourable. Girls too scared to go to a parent think they have a good reason, and all too often they are right.

I doubt many here have a problem with the state's intervention on the behalf of a child with Jehova's Witnesses and other types who object to surgical/medical procedures of one type or another. This is simply more of the same.

I doubt very much that a vist goes like this.
Girl: Gimme 'borshun.
Clinic: Sure just sign this secrecy agreement if you don't want to pay. In there. Knickers down. Legs up. All done. Off you go.

There WILL be counseling and a lot of discussion. The subject of parental notification will be covered in more detail than "No one has to know." There is no conspiracy to usurp parental "rights". Simply the acknowledgment that there are overiding "rights" of the child.

And I will add my observation: Those that most vociferously object to the abrogation of their parental rights, demonstrate by their very actions the absolute need for that abrogation.

[Kali]

147. excellent response

one of the best in this whole thread

[uppityperson]

224. Here is more how it goes... (I love your sarcastic scenario, too funny)

They are typically referred by another clinic who has done a pregnancy test and counseling, though can self refer with their own pg test (clinic usually does one there though also). They do an intake, which includes health history, counseling as to options, education as to what the procedure entails and what to watch for afterwards as well as other follow up issues (including contraceptives to prevent another pregnancy).

If the person still wishes to have the abortion, it is done by a couple people, one actively doing it, one providing support to that person and the person having the abortion. There is a period of recovery afterward when she is checked frequently by a nurse or other such person. Follow up care, what to watch for, medicines that may be prescribed, etc, is gone over again afterward before she is released. She leaves with printed material, including the date and time of the follow up appointment and names/numbers to call (for free) if she has issues or concerns.

If she wishes a friend to come along, that is fine. If not, she is still not alone, she has a lot of personal care (not just physical but emotional and spiritual if she wishes) and a lot of education is done.

I don't know what your experience with getting an abortion in the last 20 yrs has been, but every clinic I've worked at, volunteered at, or accompanied a friend to, it has worked like this.

[JVS]

417. Following confidentiality laws is not conspiring to keep secrets.

[kanrok]

16. Shocks the conscience

15 years old?

if she were to have her appendix taken out, does anyone think the school should notify the parents?

Unbelievable.

[AlbertCat]

32. if she were to have her appendix taken out, does anyone think the school should notify the parents?

Not if the parents think her appendix is sacred and would go bonkers and do something like throw her out if they found out she had it removed.

Not if her appendix got infected through some intimate act that is part of HER personal life and really has nothing to do with her parents.


An appendicitis is the same as a pregnancy????

Your bogus comparison is unbelievable.


Besides, it was a county clinic in a school. Who says the school knew about it?

[kanrok]

61. Horseshit

She's 15 freaking years old.

[Hepburn]

317. And the law says for the purposes of an abortion she has the ability on her own to give consent.

Your point?

[renate]

311. that is a really excellent point that I've never seen before

It definitely clarified my feelings on this question. I've always thought that, obviously, I would want to know if my child were having an appendix removed, and although I would WANT to know if my child were having a medical procedure as serious as an abortion (anything more serious than the application of a band-aid, really), I can see the necessity for keeping abortions private. But what you said about how an appendectomy should be private, too, if there were people who would throw a child out for having it removed made the appendicitis/abortion dichotomy not really an dichotomy any more.

By the way, to everybody saying that girls can't tell their parents because of abuse, or a lack of closeness, or alienation--I was very close to my wonderful, loving, supportive parents as a teenager, and my kids and I are very close now and I would support them through thick and thin, yet I wouldn't have wanted to tell my parents if I'd needed an abortion as a teenager, and I can imagine my kids not wanting to tell me, because I wouldn't have wanted to disappoint my parents and my kids probably wouldn't want to disappoint me. (That "disappointment" being entirely a projection on the teenager's part, btw. I wouldn't be disappointed in my kids for making a single bad decision, and my parents wouldn't have been, either. But kids don't always think logically.)

Secrecy can happen even in the most loving parent-child relationships and might be even more likely at either end of the spectrum than in the middle, though for very different reasons.

[MattBaggins]

334. Say it with me HIPPA

No the school wouldn't notify the parents. The medical facility would based on STATE LAW. "The School", what ever that means, wouldn't even know, nor should they.

[uppityperson]

17. In WA, 15 yr olds have right to women's health care confidentiality&treatment

T.J. Cosgrove of the King County Health Department, who administers the school-based programs for the health department, says it's always best if parents are involved in their children's health care, but don't always have a say.

"At any age in the state of Washington, an individual can consent to a termination of pregnancy," he said.

But Jill says she not only didn't have a say in her daughter's abortion, but also didn't know about it. "Makes me feel like my rights were completely stripped away."

I agree, it is best if kids and parents can talk, but she has the legal right to obtain an abortion without notifying her parents. I wonder how her mom found out.

[paulsby]

33. she has the legal right in WA state

i am not sure i agree it SHOULD be a legal right for a 15 yr old to choose ot have an abortion w/o parental notification/consent

tough question

[uppityperson]

34. I work hard, donate hard, to make sure this stays a right.

[paulsby]

37. good for you

and i am not sure i agree with this law.

i used to live in a state where the age of consent was 14. did that make it right that a 50 yr old could legally have sex with a 14 yr old? not imo.

[JonLP24]

42. I think that

there are good reasons for these kind of privacy laws such as when dealing with abusive parents or parents who may force the teen to have the kid against her wishes.

[paulsby]

45. and there are exceptions for those cases

which the article addressed, in states that have such notification laws.

i don't think that's a good justification for the law, based on that.

if you think a 12 yr old (for example) should have the legal authority to determine whether or not she has an invasive medical procedure- more power to you.

i disagree.

also consider this. if your 13 yr old is pregnant, there was not legal consent in regards to the sexual act.

in the case of a 14 or 15 yr old, the legality of the act depends on the age of the other person.

do you want to know if your child was possibly the victim of a serious felony?

[jeff47]

68. You have an odd way of thinking

"if you think a <15> yr old (for example) should have the legal authority to determine whether or not she has an invasive medical procedure- more power to you."

So instead, you want to give her a baby to care for. She can't be trusted to handle an abortion on her own, but she's all set for motherhood on her own?

[paulsby]

72. you have an odd way of misstating what i said

i said TWELVE year old.

to make the 'argumentum ad absurdum' so to speak

if you think there should be NO age limit, as there is in WA then you accept that a 12 yr old should be able to make the decision w.o parental notification

[paulsby]

73. you have an odd way of misstating what i said

i said TWELVE year old.

to make the 'argumentum ad absurdum' so to speak

if you think there should be NO age limit, as there is in WA then you accept that a 12 yr old should be able to make the decision w.o parental notification

[bethfully]

107. Here's the question:

Here's the question: At what age can a parent FORCE a child to give birth? B/c those are the choices. If the relationship between parent/child is such that they can't discuss this situation due to overly coercive beliefs and the child/young woman will suffer severe emotional abuse (or outright shunning) if she expresses her desire to have an abortion, then she is being, in effect, forced to give birth. So, at what age (how young) is it ok for the law not to protect the girl and insist on the right of the parent to force their child to give birth?

[Psephos]

139. Here's the question.

At what age can the state force a parent out of the role of guidance and counsel to her child in a matter literally involving life and death, and insert itself to take the parent's place?

Clearly, 15 works for you. How about 14? How about 11?

Interesting to contemplate that in order to grant a potential mother rights and responsibilities over her potential child, the state disenfranchises an actual mother's rights and responsibilities over her actual child.

[MicaelS]

189. At any age......

When the parent refuses to accede to needed medical care. Plenty of parents have been prosecuted because they refused to provide medical care to a sick child because of the parents' religious beliefs. Those parents "prayed" and the kid died. In the US if a girl does not want to be pregnant the parent can't force her to continue the pregnancy. That "forced incubation" is the kind of shit that happens in backward countries on the other side of the planet.

Children are not property, and parents cannot treat them as such. The only "interesting" thing is that property is apparently exactly how some parents wish to treat their child, as their personal property.

[Psephos]

247. Old trick. Don't answer the question. Instead, answer a different one.

First you redefine having an elective abortion as "needed medical care," as though it were a leukemia treatment or repair of a fractured tibia. It's not.

Next, you bring in wacko parents from left field, in an unspecified case involving faith-based avoidance of medical treatment of a life-threatening disease. Give me a break.

The issue here is not parents "forcing" a pregnancy. I agree that can't and shouldn't be done. Ultimately, the pregnant child is the last arbiter. But let's get back on to the real issue: the state's unilateral removal of the parent from the biological and cultural role of protector, counselor, and participant in her child's development and actions.

You say that children are not property, as though someone made that absurd claim. Children are a parent's RESPONSIBILITY, as they have been for uncounted thousands of years. When the state arrogantly usurps the rightful biological and cultural role of the mother, shuts the mother completely out, and pretends IT is the mother instead (whatever the hell IT is), we are broken indeed. If anyone is treating the child as chattel, it is the state.

The parent-child bond is the most fundamental bond of the human experience. When it is degraded, and that degradation becomes codified as law and administered by nanny bureaucrats, the culture has entered its endgame.

[uppityperson]

248. Giving fertile females self control over their fertility = endgame for the culture? Ah.

By the way, did you notice that the person you are replying to is not the one before this in this subthread?

[Psephos]

249. If you re-read my post, I said clearly that the final decision is the child's.

The issue is whether the state can insert itself in loco parentis as counselor and provider, while shoving the actual mother aside and shutting her out.

You want to live in a world where bureaucrats and clinic staffers take over the responsibilities actual mothers have had since the beginning of humankind.

I don't.

[uppityperson]

257. No, if you reread MY posts, I want to live in a world where females have reproductive rights over

their own bodies, parents and sperm donors don't. The pregnant female has the responsibility of dealing with keeping, or not, her pregnancy. NOT the "actual mothers", bureaucrats or clinic staffers.

[Psephos]

281. False argument.

The bureaucrats/staffers took the place of the mother here. You treat the "pregnant female" (a 15 year old child) as a self-sufficient person able to make adult decisions without counsel. She wasn't - or she wouldn't have sought the aid of the in-school "health clinic." Prima facie, she needed counsel, assistance, and affirmation.

And yes, actual mothers do end up with a major share of responsibility in caring for their minor daughters' babies. To argue otherwise is to not only defy common sense and common experience, but to also not grasp the biological evolution of the great apes, especially the three chimpanzee lines (pan, bonobo, and humans). There is a reason human relations are governed by powerful tribal and kin connections. It's written in our genes. Political loyalty (and deep allegiance to an ideology) spring from the same emotions, and replace loyalty to tribe and extended family when natural family connections have been stripped away. So it's hardly surprising the state works to corrode the natural ties that bind.

BTW, your use of the term "sperm donors" is revealing. The first, and universal, step in canceling a human being's rights is to dehumanize her/him. That makes it easy to say and do all kinds of ugly things.

[uppityperson]

286. wtf? She sought a pg test and referral so she is not self-sufficient,able to make decisions?

If she was, she wouldn't have sought the aid of a clinic for a pregnancy test and referral? What. The. Hell?

Um, women who think they are pregnant usually get a pregnancy test and then ask where to go for an abortion.

Regarding chimpanzees, it is normal for a "teen" to be kicked out on her own when her mom has another baby. It is normal for a female to be treated as adult when she is able to get pregnant (in other words, all the dudes mate with her when she is fertile). Are you seriously saying we humans should be like this because "it's written in our genes"?

You take offense at "sperm donor"? What would you prefer? The unborn aborted baby's daddy?

[MattBaggins]

338. To argue otherwise is to not only defy common sense and common experience

No actually you're just making this up.

There are more than a fair share of minor girls who are left on their own with no help from grandma as well as many who recieve help from grandmas who are incompetent.

No tribal crap is written in our genes. You need to take a few college bio courses.

[Kali]

277. "Ultimately, the pregnant child is the last arbiter."

why all the other bullshit when you actually seem to get the point?

Ultimately, the pregnant child is the last arbiter.

[Psephos]

283. I bow to your rhetorical skill and ability to persuade.

I had not realized before how powerful a technique of persuasion is to jump into the middle of discussion and tell someone their perspective is bullshit.

I'm quite impressed. ;)

[Kali]

287. I'm not into rhetoric.

simple, to-the-point facts pretty much speak for themselves

not really interested in "persuading" you, either

as the quote proved - you already know the bottom line :hi:

[Psephos]

288. psst...I already had that figured out. ;)

[MattBaggins]

336. Silly right wing memes

The "state" didn't choose. Nanny Bureaucrats didn't administer any thing. The girl made a choice and demanded medical care that she was by law entitled to.

[MattBaggins]

335. The state didn't make the choice

The girl did.

[jeff47]

160. You miss my point

Your position seems to be that a young teen is not capable of making the decision to have an abortion on their own. That implies that you think the 'default' position in this situation is universally better, which is giving that young teen a baby.

If they're not capable of handling the "get an abortion or not" decision, how are they supposed to handle the billions of more difficult decisions that constitute parenthood?

[JonLP24]

165. +1

[Jax]

412. Thank you you nailed this one

[U4ikLefty]

69. Do you believe the parents should have authority to decide if

the 15 year old can have an abortion?

[paulsby]

74. i'm not sure on that

like i said.

i do think that the idea that they are not even notified is unacceptable.


and that goes more definitely for 12 and 13 yr olds who are too young to give consent to ANYBODY

(in WA state 14 and 15 yr olds can have sex within certain age ranges

[quakerboy]

96. Notification is Veto Power

[uppityperson]

102. +++++++++++++

[paulsby]

138. well, not if it was after the fact it aint

it's kind of difficult to shove it back in there and all

hth

[quakerboy]

285. After the fact is shaming And veto.

and is pretty much veto as well. The knowledge that they WILL be informed means the same set of potential consequences are hanging over the head of the female in question as would be in effect if they were informed prior to the event.

[Kali]

129. you are looking at this from an egocentric position

possibly as a very caring parent. The law is designed to protect the female from parents who might in fact do harm by overriding her decisions about her own body. They may even be complicit or responsible for the pregnancy. Don't you think a victim of incest, or even lesser abuse, whatever her age, should be allowed to make the decision privately?

If your relationship is good enough that you should know about a pregnancy, she will tell you - you will know. Otherwise, sorry none of your business, SHE feels unsafe with having the parents know. That is all that matters.

[paulsby]

140. the law in other states that REQUIRE notificatioon

ALSO are designed to protect the kids from parents, in those cases where it is an issue



hth

[Kali]

148. what is your point?

most states that "require notification" have exceptions so that it can be done WITHOUT notifying parents - personally I think that is stupid and usually the only way the privacy issue can pass in red/religious/anti-abortion leaning states.

Pregnant female = biological woman
her decisions on procedure, notifications

[paulsby]

154. a 12 yr old is not a woman

whether or not she is biologically capable of giving birth

would you be ok with the age of consent being 12?

if not, then you tacitly admit that they are not adults

hth

[Kali]

279. I have a lot problems with the whole "age of consent" concept.

and age of consent for sex becomes kind of irrelevant anyway once there is a pregnancy, laws don't stop sex, knowledge and communication CAN stop disease transmission and unwanted pregnancies but once the conception occurs it is a whole new ballgame and the pregnant person GETS TO CALL THE SHOTS.

[apnu]

170. But we're not talking about MOST states, we're talking about WASHINGTON state

Which does not require notification as many others have pointed out.

[marshall]

186. There is a hidden horror for many of these girls

Mama looks the other way while her live in boyfriend satisfies himself with her daughters. Everyone in the family knows it but nobody speaks about it. When the girl ends up pregnant it threatens the little bit of peace that exists in the family. The only way to maintain the sanity is to sneak off and have an abortion without directly telling the mother information that she doesn't really want to know.

[joeglow3]

192. So my rights as a parent are restricted...

simply because someone else MIGHT be a piece of shit with regards to their kids? Is it also okay to bomb countries because they MIGHT have weapons of mass destruction?

[msanthrope]

200. I'm sorry--what right are asserting over your pregnant daughter's fetus? n/t

[joeglow3]

208. I am asserting my right to be involved in my minor child's healthcare

Do you support a child being able to get ANY other medical procedure done without parent's knowldege?

[msanthrope]

216. Yes. when the minor requests medically appropriate care that the

parent disagrees with, the minor not only gets the care, but gets all privileges of medical privacy.

Do I think that a JW's child should be able to get a transfusion without parental consent? Yes.

[joeglow3]

231. Do you include cosmetic surgery as well?

How about breast implants? Do kids also get to decide if they can get a facial tattoo? It IS their body, after all.

[uppityperson]

235. WA state law says 18 for tattoos...

Washington Tattoo Laws
26.28.085. Applying tattoo to a minor--Penalty

Every person who applies a tattoo to any minor under the age of eighteen is guilty of a misdemeanor. It is not a defense to a violation of this section that the person applying the tattoo did not know the minor's age unless the person applying the tattoo establishes by a preponderance of the evidence that he or she made a reasonable, bona fide attempt to ascertain the true age of the minor by requiring production of a driver's license or other picture identification card or paper and did not rely solely on the oral allegations or apparent age of the minor.

For the purposes of this section, "tattoo" includes any permanent marking or coloring of the skin with any pigment, ink, or dye, or any procedure that leaves a visible scar on the skin. Medical procedures performed by a licensed physician are exempted from this section.

[joeglow3]

238. I am not asking what the law is.

I would bet there are PLENTY of laws out there that you do not agree with. I am asking your OPINION on what the law SHOULD be.

[uppityperson]

241. I agree with tats over 18, Right to Privacy med care 15, Right to Privacy abortion if pregnant. eom

[msanthrope]

262. Cosmetic surgery to correct disfigurement, yes.

I wrote medically necessary. I would argue that correction of a scar or a harelip or burns would be necessary medical treatment.

Would the implant correct a disfigurement? Yes. Merely elective augmentation? No. Reduction for health reasons? Yes.

[MattBaggins]

340. I think it sucks but yes

I think the child should be encouraged to discuss it with the parents and a counselor should be brought in; but if a child says I want treatment for my asthma and don't tell my parents; the doctor must do so if the child actually needs the treatment.

It sucks but they can't send the child away if they really need medical care.

[Kali]

204. sorry, your pregnant daughter's rights supersede your need to know

if you want to interfere in her reproductive decisions, better do so before she can get pregnant in the first place

[joeglow3]

209. Do you hold the same belief for ALL medical decisions?

If she wanted to, can a Doctor give her breast implants without a parent's knowledge?

[Kali]

233. that is an elective cosmetic procedure, sorry does not apply

try something a little more complex - say joint repair surgery - not life threatening but perhaps more medically necessary, yet not any kind of emergency.

That would take some thought for me. I would probably approach it from a strictly medical point of view. What context would be possible that a parent shouldn't be notified in such a situation? Can't think of any, myself. Certainly a sudden life saving situation should be allowed to be done with out parental informing or permission (hell if the victim was unconscious they wouldn't even be able to give consent themselves)

However sex and pregnancy, especially in our culture? Too much risk of past or future abuse by the parents themselves, if they are even "present". The benefits to pregnant females far outweighs the need for parents to suddenly become involved in their reproductive decisions. If you are that concerned about you own daughters, cultivate the relationship needed for them to be fully informed, feel safe, knowledgeable, confident to discuss all of it with you BEFORE the deeds are done! As someone said upthread, if she's having sex without your knowledge or pregnant it's just too late, you have abrogated your right to control her reproductive behavior/biology.

All these parents so concerned about their own need to be informed are either a) not at risk of this happening because they have cultivated the right environment for real communication, or b) the same ones these pregnant girls need to be protected from.

[muriel_volestrangler]

213. To your first question, yes (though you are assuming some things)

You assume that you have 'rights' to control your child's healthcare. You don't; you have a duty to look after your child's health. With that duty, you get rights on how to do it. But for reproductive health, many parents are unreliable - they may throw the child out of the home, for instance - and there is no way of telling which parents might do that (apart from asking the child) without alerting the parent(s) to the proposed treatment, whether contraception or abortion. And so the state has passed laws that parental involvement and notification are not required.

Your second rhetorical question is a strawman. Investigations into whether countries have WMD can be made, and the possession of WMD is not a sufficient reason for bombing anyway. It's an irrelevant comparison.

[uppityperson]

80. If there is question of child abuse, health care providers, like teachers, are mandated by law to

report it. That is different from having a legal medical procedure done.

Do you really think parents should be able to control if their kid gets an abortion simply because she may have been underage when having sex? Or the male person was involved with statutory rape?

[paulsby]

141. do you have a difficulty with reading comprehension?

i said i wasn't sure about THAT aspect.

but notification is a different issue

hth

[uppityperson]

206. That was in reply to " do you want to know if your child was possibly the victim of a serious felony

Do you have a civility issue?

[Mithreal]

+1

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Demeter]

64. What Right Does A Woman Have Over Her Daughter's Pregnancy?

Is that listed in the Constitution, or Bill of Rights, Maybe?

Time to recognize one's ego ends where one's child begins to make her own choices.

[WinkyDink]

164. "My rights"? As what? "Potential Granny"? Sorry, lady.

[SoapBox]

18. Was the girl bound and gagged? If she is "pro-life" then...

why wasn't she kicking and screaming? How about screaming to the taxi
driver to stop or take her home? Couldn't she jump out of the cab?

...she did NOT want the mother/parents to know. Period.

No one forced her...she asked for help...and the clinic provided.

The mother needs a dose of reality. Your daughter felt that she could not talk to you.

Might I suggest family counseling?

[MadMaddie]

20. Soooooooooooo is the mother insinuating that the clinic

forced her daughter to have an abortion?

Did the daughter do this on her own and she didn't tell her mother? The girl more than likely has a cell phone and she could have called her mother. (Was she afraid of her parents or maybe even her church?)

The young woman was 16 and she was responsible enough to have sex so she was responsible enough to tell her parents. Every step of the way she could have said no.

It's obvious the mother was not informed of what her daughter was doing.....in the case that the young woman continued the pregnancy and managed to successfully hide it.....would the mother have been aware enough of her daughters pregnancy as it progressed? Would we possibly be reading about a dead infant in the garbage.....?

There is more to this story......

[MercutioATC]

22. Question: What would have happened if there were complications and the girl died?

I realize there are a lot of issues at play here, but does a minor (who can't even legally consent to sex) have the ability to make decisions about invasive medical procedures?

[Mojorabbit]

28. When I was 16 in the very early 70's

I was the official driver when several of my friends decided to have abortions. Parents were not notified. It was not an uncommon occurrence. It was harder to find a physician who would prescribe birth control for a minor than to set up an abortion in those days.
In my mid 50's I have mixed feelings about it but I remember how it was and know that these girls thought long and hard before making their decision.
Later in nursing school, part of our OB/GYN rotation was through that same clinic and I counseled preop, assisted the physician with the procedure, and did post op care after. I doubt any nursing school does that now but the clinic did make an effort to encourage the minor to confide in a family member during the preop counseling session.
I was perfectly capable of making the decision at that age but I think I was born old. :)

[liquid diamond]

57. Good point. All the people here cheering for this practice ought to think

about that. I wonder if the school would be slapped with a major law suit.

[MattBaggins]

341. The school can't be slapped with anything....HIPPA

They have nothing to do with it nor should they.

[hunter]

197. The complications of teenaged sex in families where sex cannot be discussed are deadlier.

That's why we have laws like this. They protect the young woman.

Teens who can't talk to their parents about sex or the consequences of sex usually have good reason not to talk.

My own mom, who used to drive around with "choose life" license plate frames on her car, was always very candid about sex and pregnancy. Me and the older of my siblings knew everything about sex and pregnancy by the time we were toddlers, almost in a too-much-information kind of way.

Every one of my siblings knew about sex and pregnancy and STDs and the possibilities for abusive relationships long before we were even considering having sex on our own. One of the consequence of that openess was that not a single one of us ever got into a situation that put us in jeopardy. Myself, I was so certain my mom would joyfully accept into her family any girl and her baby that I was the father of that I never got into that situation. It would have been like having even more siblings, and that was unacceptable to me. By the age of ten I'd changed numerous dirty diapers of my younger siblings and I wasn't going to have any more of that until I was good and ready!

Unfortunately there are too many teens who get into trouble with sex because there is nobody in their family to talk to. Young teens are more likely to die from the complications of pregnancy and sexually abusive situations when they can't talk to their parents about these subjects, and these laws are designed to protect these girls.

When I was in high school there was a girl who killed herself when she discovered she was pregnant. It could have been for other reasons, but she came from a very religious family who doubtlessly had never said anything more to her about sex than that it was "sinful" outside of marriage. This girl almost certainly felt she had no one she could turn to. Essentially her parents, in their ignorance and fear, had put their daughter in a situation so intolerable to her that she took her own life.

If a family is not open about sex, then the state must step in to protect minors who are having sex. Whether or not you are against abortion, abortion is legal in the United States. That being the case parental notification laws are always going to result in the greater harm.

The mom in the original post should have suspected her daughter was having or was going to have sex and taken appropriate steps to educate her about birth control and sexual relationships in general. Failing that this mom should keep her mouth shut. She abdicated her responsibility for her daughter's welfare to the state and has no grounds to criticize the outcome.

[Kali]

211. well said

"The mom in the original post should have suspected her daughter was having or was going to have sex and taken appropriate steps to educate her about birth control and sexual relationships in general. Failing that this mom should keep her mouth shut. She abdicated her responsibility for her daughter's welfare to the state and has no grounds to criticize the outcome."

[colinmom71]

356. Within the limited scope of personal reproductive health concerns, yes.

The reason that pregnant minors are granted this limited right to self-consent to medical treatments concerning reproductive health and pregnancy is because if she continues the pregnancy (either to keep the baby to parent it or to give it up for adoption), the pregnant minor will *already* be in a position to need to make a number of medical decisions in regards to pregnancy care. Also, she will be in the legal position of needing to give consent to whether the baby will be parented by herself or by adoptive parents. If she keeps the baby, she'll then be the responsible parental party to consent to medical treatment for the baby, such as blood tests, immunizations, etc.

If a pregnant minor must face these legal responsibilities, then she must also be considered capable of legally consenting to decide whether she remains pregnant. The fact is, once that pregnancy test turns positive, a teen girl's life changes drastically and the law must reflect that practicality.

[uppityperson]

369. EXCELLENT post! Thank you so much for this. Very good explanation. nt

[Name removed]

433. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[Haole Girl]

23. " Jill says her daughter, a pro-life advocate.."

They always think differently, until it happens to them.

[ellenfl]

25. yes they do. eom

[Canuckistanian]

24. I'm skeptical that the story happened like the article says

Permission forms, especially for medical treatments are VERY SPECIFIC. I DOUBT that the mom just signed without knowing what was wrong with her daughter.

If it were MY kid, I'd be phoning the "Teen Health Center" to see EXACTLY what they wanted to do.

[uppityperson]

29. In WA, most school clinics are run by county health dept. Also reproductive health care

is privacy protected, no parental notification laws are in place. Reproductive health care is one of the things county health depts do in WA. And there are not age restrictions on abortions in WA.

If she hadn't gone to the in-school clinic, she could have simply gone to the main county health dept or local planned parenthood. All this means she didn't need any sort of permission from any parent.

[Canuckistanian]

41. WA sounds like a very civilized state

I say if you're old enough to get pregnant, you're old enough to decide what happens to your body.

[Rozlee]

38. Yeah, it's fishy. And I have a feeling the wingnut cockroaches are going to come out

of the cracks in hordes. Sure, kids pull the wool over their parents eyes every day. But, this mother's attempt at blaming the clinics and the school is probably getting wingers panties wet even while we speak . They're probably holding her hand and keening about her "murdered" grandchild.

[emilyg]

27. If I was this

Mom - I'd be furious.

[uppityperson]

30. Why? At whom?

Edited to add, if I were her I'd be really mad at myself for having the sort of relationship with my kid that she couldn't talk with me about this.

[paulsby]

35. some parents don't agree

(imagine that) that their child should be able to get an abortion (or any medical procedure) at age 15 w./o their consent or notification

it IS the law in WA that they can, though. doesn't mean it's a good law

[uppityperson]

36. It is a good law. So who would you be furious about and why?

Not having 15 yr olds beaten by furious parents is good. Not having to report to your incestuous father is good.

[paulsby]

39. if i was furious (purely hypothetical)

most likely at the legislators , since they passed the law.

just like people shouldn't get angry at cops for enforcing dumb drug laws. it's the legislature that makes laws. good... and bad

[woo me with science]

302. Yeah, let her get the abortion without any notification of anyone

and then go back home to her incestuous father.

It's all good.

[Kali]

131. no that is exactly why it is a good law

next step - husbands should have to agree for a wife to have the procedure? Male relatives of any woman? Family religious leader? Sorry you are a defacto woman if you are pregnant. YOUR BODY YOUR DECISIONS.

[marshall]

52. In my state the school nurse can't even give a kid an aspirin without parental permission

But I guess to each her own.

[emilyg]

58. Same here.

[uppityperson]

82. They aren't supposed to in WA either, hence the permission slip. However

there is no limitation on age for legal abortion without parental notification. And, there is right to privacy regarding reproductive health care. AND this was not a school nurse but a county health department run clinic that was situated in a school. There are few "school nurses" here anymore, most schools I know have county public health clinics inthem.

An aspirin you need a permission slip signed for. Reproductive health information, including referrals to other places, no permission is needed.

[Crowman1979]

44. This sounds like a Bachmann/ACORN pimp style set-up to me.

Probably just another BS attempt by wingnuts to sabotage healthcare.

[Igel]

51. It makes sense.

It's the kind of discrepancy that people have in their thinking. At 15, she can make a decision about such things; she's a woman for those purposes. For others, she's far too immature--even though the other decisions may have fewer or less severe implications.

The older way of doing things, and still required, I suspect (simply because I haven't heard any differently), in some part of the country, is a bit more onerous: An independent adult must review the decision and give permission. This adult is typically a judge. Many consider this to be too restrictive.

As with many things, life's imperfect. The solutions are all imperfect. And when you go about selecting which imperfect solution you choose, you weight the imperfections according to how you rank your own values. In other words, people differ. And it leads to the kinds of internal contradictions that you see.

In fact, it gets even weirder. So there was a famous Iraq rape case with a girl named Abir. Or a woman named Abir, depending upon who was doing the reporting. (In some cases it was a discrepancy in reported age, in others it was a difference in cultural viewpoint, and in some it was probably a desire to downplay or increase the heinousness of the crime.) Had she survived and then wanted an abortion consequent to the rape, some would insist she was a girl when raped but a woman when deciding to abort. Others would insist she was a woman in both instances or a girl in each instance. Given a lack of cultural consensus and a lack of uniform ranking of values involving such things, that kind of disagreement only stands to reason.

[liquid diamond]

53. Same here. What's with all the deception?

A parent has a right to know if their child is getting major surgery.

[woodsprite]

59. In my daughter's high school, if you are a parent and you sign a

permission form that you child has consent to use their medical facilities, it is for ALL options and counseling and it also states that there is a confidentiality agreement between the teen and the clinic. When you sign, you are signing away your rights to know what is going on with your teen. Supposedly, the teen clinic is not supposed to treat anyone who has not had their parents signed permission slip on file. The clinic is totally separate from the school nurse's office.

Wonder what the fine print on her permission slip said? There is no way I would sign away my kid like that, but there are a lot who do. Especially since they say they can get free physicals through the clinic for sports, free strep testing, etc.

[liquid diamond]

124. I hope parents are reading these "releases" closely.

Schools are way too involved in raising children. There are boundaries.

[Demeter]

65. Major Surgery? Hardly

No need to over-dramatize the situation.

[liquid diamond]

125. No need to downplay it.

[PSPS]

66. "Major surgery?"

An abortion is not "major surgery."

[Codeine]

76. Major surgery?

Your ignorance is astounding. It's a very simple outpatient procedure.

[liquid diamond]

126. Explain what is involved.

[msanthrope]

195. Go educate yourself. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

221. Here you go:

Aspiration:
In the first trimester, measured usually to 13 weeks LMP, aspiration is used to empty the uterus. This first trimester abortion involves three main steps: (1) an injection to numb the cervix, (2) insertion of a soft flexible tube through the cervix into the uterus, (3) suction created by an aspirating machine or a hand-held mechanism to remove the pregnancy from the uterus. It is done in an outpatient clinic, doctor's office or hospital and takes less than five minutes to complete the actual procedure.

http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/ab-procedures.htm

Most abortions are in this trimester, and since only one visit to the clinic is talked about, it's reasonable to assume it was a procedure like this. So 'major surgery' would be a very bad description of it.

[Codeine]

284. Suction. A little scraping.

Sometimes nothing more complex than two pills.

How is that "major surgery"? No cutting, no slicing, no dicing.

[liquid diamond]

289. Suction of a tissue mass and it is very intrusive, right?

I know people love to downplay abortion here, but it's not like getting your tonsils taken out.

[uppityperson]

290. Actually, it is less dangerous and bloody than getting your tonsils taken out.

To get your tonsils out, they grab, twist and yank the tissue out of your throat. Seriously. It is very traumatic to the body and people often bleed a lot afterward. A first trimester abortion:
http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/ab-procedures.htm

Aspiration:
In the first trimester, measured usually to 13 weeks LMP, aspiration is used to empty the uterus. This first trimester abortion involves three main steps: (1) an injection to numb the cervix, (2) insertion of a soft flexible tube through the cervix into the uterus, (3) suction created by an aspirating machine or a hand-held mechanism to remove the pregnancy from the uterus. It is done in an outpatient clinic, doctor's office or hospital and takes less than five minutes to complete the actual procedure.

[liquid diamond]

291. Very well. Thanks for the info.

But my opinion stands on informing the parent. I'll see you around.

[uppityperson]

293. You are welcome. There is a lot of false info and emotionality surrounding sexuality issues

It is good to talk with people who have had experience working with things like this rather than those who just feel a certain way. Lots of emotions, then looking for "facts" to back up an emotion rather than viewing the facts first. People are funny, overall.

What purpose does mandating informing a parent have? Serious question.

[liquid diamond]

295. I answered your question in my previous posts.

[uppityperson]

296. All I see is you consider it "major surgery", which it isn't. Can you answer?

What purpose does mandating informing a parent have?

[liquid diamond]

301. I'm not repeating myself. Seriously, search for my posts. My

answers are there.

[uppityperson]

303. No. Rather than searching this whole mess to try and figure out what you mean,

it would be nice for you to simply tell me. But time is money,right?

[Hepburn]

292. From what I have heard...tonsils are worse. n/t

[MattBaggins]

342. You are correct

It is less "invasive" than getting your tonsils removed.

[iverglas]

349. I am a tonsillectomy survivor, and you're right:

it's not like getting your tonsils taken out

I had my tonsils out when I was 21, right after completing first year law school exams. Torts class that year had been replete with tales of the dangers of tonsillectomies: sponges left in throat leading to death, that sort of thing. I was rather apprehensive.

I survived the surgery fine, and was told to take things very easy for two weeks. Well, I was 21 and I didn't have mummy and daddy keeping tabs on me, and I didn't.

A week later, I haemorraged. Nasty business it was. I spent two days in hospital. Clot over the wound kept forming and dislodging. Gag. Bleeding didn't want to stop. I survived that too, though.

Then, of course, tonsillectomies are performed under a general anaesthetic. Abortions virtually never are, certainly not yer 98% of them that are first trimester. General anaesthetics come with a fair risk of brain damage or death, that sort of thing. When I had another surgery some years later, a cervical biopsy, I made sure to let the anaesthesiologist know I was one of those lawyer people. Three women had suffered that brain damage or death business in my city in the previous couple of years during minor gynaecological surgeries under generals, and I didn't want to.

So all in all, you're quite right. An abortion is not at all like getting your tonsils out. Getting your tonsils out carries a greater risk of death, for starters, from physician error, post-surgery complications (infection is another one) and miscellaneous unforeseens. And it is actually surgery. It really isn't accurate to describe an abortion as surgery even.

Hell, delivery isn't surgery either, but it's sure a lot riskier than a first-trimester abortion. As is carrying a pregnancy to term.

Those really are the options, you know. Terminate the pregnancy or carry it to term. We're not really talking about options like I had with my tonsils: have 'em out or not have 'em out and maybe take antibiotics regularly for the rest of my life to combat the probable recurring infections thereby likely avoiding any risk of death (which could still subsist if I didnn't take the drugs).

There isn't an option 3 in a pregnancy. Terminate; carry to term and deliver. Carrying to term and delivering being multiple times more risky in terms of serious adverse health outcomes and risk of death.

Tonsillectomies are risky and are in fact not "medically necessary" to treat the condition, and the risks involved in not treating it that way are really very low. (Abortion is in fact medically necessary to treat the condition "pregnancy" if the patient does not wish to assume the risks associated with not terminating it, or simply does not want to be pregnant; it's not a condition that can be ameliorated any other way. Just as setting a bone is medically necessary if the patient wants it to heal optimally, but not setting it in many cases won't involve any risk to life.)

And yet thousands and thousands of parents subject their children to tonsillectomies every year.

[uppityperson]

84. No, they do not have a right to know about reproductive health issues.

State law gives the patient the right to privacy. When someone is 15, their right to privacy extends to ALL health care. Yes, a parent may have to pay, or their insurance pay, if the kid choses to go that way. But they can pay by themselves and the parents have NO right to know anything.

It can be very frustrating, having been there with a kid of my own, but it is how it is.

[liquid diamond]

128. And it's bullshit. Just because it's the law doesn't mean I have

to agree with it.

[grantcart]

56. I wonder how the mother found out

[quakerboy]

85. I'd bet money

that the daughter was "pro-life" and "no sex before marriage (even though I am, just a little)" before she found out she was pregnant. Then became pro-choice when it was "tell mom or get an abortion". Then felt a lifetime of "I'm a sinner" guilt training crash down, after the deed was safely done, reverting to "Pro-life" and told her own mother, or possibly a handy youth pastor or sibling who quickly made sure mom knew.

Could be wrong. Been wrong before in my life. But if I could find a taker and a reliable way to verify it, that's what I'd put money on.

[grantcart]

155. I expect you are right and that experience was worse than the abortion.

[lobodons]

62. Mother traumatized girl more than anything else

The mother's reaction is doing more harm than anything the girl herself or the school did.

[Hestia]

67. Seeing her mother's reaction, running to the news, is it any wonder she couldn't talk to her mom?

[hayu_lol]

71. Washington does really sound like a civilized place...

I seem to remember that in many states, at least at one time, pregnant girls were considered legally emancipated minors. They did not need parental notification and consent for termination of the pregnancy.

Article says nothing about the identity of the father. Could be there is a story there as to why the girl chose not to notify her mom or dad or both.

She did go to the clinic on her own. She was counseled and following counseling, did not choose to notify parents. Took a cab ride(that part seems cold)by herself to the center which gave her more opportunity to think about her decision. She chose to go through the procedure by herself.

This is the way it should be. Adult predicament and adult decision.

Had her parents been more reasonable(perhaps), she might have confided in them prior to making the decision. She chose not to and there is a story there.

Used to be that girls in this position committed suicide, left town for a year or so, or was forced into marriage with the father. Her plans for her life would have been stolen from her.

You may disagree with her decision not to inform her parents...but it was her decision.

[Dappleganger]

175. That part really bothers me...

about her going to the clinic on her own. A minor child should have at minimum a court-appointed guardian to help make those decisions. And how young can she decide on her own? 14? 13? 12? 11? 10???

There are cutoff ages for a reason--just because a girl is suddenly pregnant doesn't mean she's instantly emotionally old enough to make a major medical decision on her own.

Does this girl know her own medical history? Is there a bleeding disorder? Both of my daughters have vonWillebrands and need to have DDAVP administered even for a dental extraction. Would a doctor know this is a possibility?? With vWD being the MOST common bleeding disorder it's always a possibility that one doesn't discover it until a medical procedure involving bleeding occurs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

223. A court-appointed guardian is a major thing to set up

unless you're saying all children should have a court-appointed guardian before they ever might need one. Time is of the essence in pregnancy and abortion; setting up court dates would cause a lot of problems.

It's quite possible that a 15 year old girl felt quite capable of going on her own in a cab to a clinic. We don't know if the clinic refused to send someone with her, even though she wanted someone, or if she just said she wanted to do it as unobtrusively as possible (eg if she was seen leaving the campus in the company of a member of staff of the health clinic, people would know it's a health-related matter, and someone might have told her mother. As it is, it's possible that it was a third party at the school who suspected even though she was alone, and told the mother.)

[MattBaggins]

343. Again what is this magical "court appointed guardian" going to do?

How is their list of questions going to differ from the doctors/nurses/counselors at the clinic? You think the counselors are too stupid to ask the child if it was rape/incest and let them know that it is safe to talk to them about these things? What is the difference if some Judge does this? If the child refuses to answer the question to a friendly face at a clinic what would a Judge do? Throw the child in jail?

[yellowcanine]

70. Hmm. The school may have been wrong but the mother seems to be scapegoating the school for her own

failures as a parent also.

[Codeine]

78. Good. She has the right to control her womb, even at 15. nt

[johnroshan]

178. Yeah.

She also has the right to give consent to have sex with a 30 yo man. :sarcasm:

The double standard is astounding.

[Hepburn]

252. No, she does not...

...sheesh...:eyes:

[MattBaggins]

344. She does have that right

The 30 year old man however does not.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

149. So how did the mother find out?

And does the kid have to pay now that the mother knows? Something doesn't smell right about this.

If it was my daughter, I'd hope she would feel comfortable enough to tell me if she got pregnant, so I could help support her with whatever decision she made. But if she chose to keep it a secret from me, I would not blame the school or the clinic for respecting her privacy.

[Liberty Belle]

150. The daughter is a hypocrite, too.

The story says the daughter is a "pro life advocate" sneaking off to get an abortion.

She'll probably be back out protesting against abortion clinics soon. Typical right wing loons, both of them.

[insidejoke]

151. Question for the Parental Notice Crowd

What if she'd been raped by her father?

Or would you put teens in the especially precarious position of choosing between notifying a parent or telling the county health office (and the police, and the court, and a social worker, and her parents, and the press, and anyone else who thinks this pregnancy is his/her business) that she'd been raped by her father so shouldn't have to report this?

I think it's better to make a difficult law that's easy to enforce than a righteous law that undermines its own purpose...but that's just me.

[Occulus]

152. Wait.... WHAT??

"Jill says her daughter, a pro-life advocate, was given a pass, put in a taxi and sent off to have an abortion"

Something does not smell right here.

[harmonicon]

156. many of the replies in this thread absolutely sicken me - I can not respond to them individually

Some of you people are absolute fucking whack-jobs. I fear for your own mental health, our country (you crazy fuckers can vote?!), and most especially your families.

Children are not the property of their parents. The job of a parent is that of a guardian; to protect children from the evils of the world both simple and complex, to educate them, to enrich their lives, to do what they can to the best of their abilities to see to it that these young people grow up to become worthwhile, caring, functioning adults.

For those of you who think that doctor/patient confidentiality should not exist if the patient is under 18, would you also remove attorney/client privilege for the youngster?

For one who accepts ideas of freedom, free will, is there an entrance fee? Is that entrance fee a number? Is child slavery ok if it doesn't involve working in fields?

[meowomon]

157. I'm glad she had an adult to turn to when her mother obviously couldn't be there for her.

Too bad that mother has such a horrible relationship with her daugheter that she couldn't even be trusted to share in one of the most heart wrenching decisions of her life. This is why we don't need parental consent or notification.

[Titanothere]

426. Because you know so much about their relationship

And I'm sure this really improved things between them. The parents should have been notified. Period.

[ima_sinnic]

436. "parents should have been notified. Period." why? because they "own" that young woman?

what if they were "notified" and dad beat the s**t out of her and threw her out of the house?
Neither parent was pregnant. The person who is pregnant gets to decide. This young woman knew she was not ready to have a child, and that child's quality of life would not be the best. I applaud the state of Washington for having the sense to see that and to maintain such progressive legislation.

Not like when I was 15, in 1961, when young women would suddenly "disappear" for a while, gone to a "convent" or to "stay with an aunt," being forced to carry to term and then having the baby torn away from them and put up for adoption. I see the aftermath of that all the time now on forums and message boards, with mothers from the 60s looking for their children they were forced to give up, or children looking for their mothers.

At least some didn't end up dead after a botched back-alley abortion, which would have had to have been painful as hell. Thank god we're more enlightened than that now--because, like it or not, women have been aborting fetuses since caveman days and making it illegal is not going to stop that, only make it illegal, expensive, and extremely dangerous.

[Ian David]

158. Pro-Life means all abortions are wrong except for YOUR abortion. n/t

[WinkyDink]

163. Are there REALLY DU'ers here who DO NOT KNOW AND RESPECT THIS LAW? Pregnant women of any age get to

decide what happens to THEIR body and THEIR pregnancy.

NOT someone OUTSIDE that body.

[apnu]

174. Spot on, that's what the law says in WA.

It seems, also, that the law says nothing about providing notification to parents in the case of a minor. The county run medical center within the school was under no obligation to notify the student's parents about the procedure. This was a decision by the nurse (or doctor) at the medical center to not notify the parents and that person was within their legal rights to do so.

Its OK to complain about the law, its OK to work to change the law, but it is not OK to defy the law willy-nilly.

[Dappleganger]

176. So an 11 yr. old girl gets to ride by herself in a cab to a clinic?

I don't know of any family judge in our area who would even entertain that thought. A court appointed guardian needs to step in if a parent is not available in some capacity.

[harmonicon]

188. if an 11 year old girl is pregnant...

her parents have already failed her in a very large number of ways. Not only should they not have to be informed, but they should probably be stripped of all parental rights.

[Kali]

225. ...

:thumbsup:

good post upthread, too

[uppityperson]

226. No, she'd probably take the bus. Cheaper and all. nt

[MattBaggins]

345. They have these "guardians"

They are trained counselors at the clinics.

[One_Life_To_Give]

214. Process versus Results

Some of us are not interested solely in the result. But that there is consistency throughout the process as well. We are bothered by details such as ability to understand and execute legal documents in some cases but unable to in others. How far of a stretch is it to imagine a fundy controlled clinic trying to keep a young woman or 15 protected from her evil parents wishing to terminate the blessed event. :sarcasm: Seems the only real control we as society have placed here is the hopefully Professionalism of the Medical Community. And not the Mental Reasoning Capabilities of a 15yr old. Appears to me we are requiring more from the medical community than just the surgeons skill when dealing with an adolescent. And fortunately for us they have stepped up to the plate in this regard. Although we did not specifically ask nor authorize them to do so. Just seem to have forced the requirement upon them.

In the end we are getting the right results. But the process appears to be doing so because of the efforts of dedicated professionals rather than by design.

[xynthee]

432. Apparently there are lots of them. Very disturbing. n/t

[Dappleganger]

166. I'm pro-choice but as a mother to with two teenage daughters believe that 15 is too young

to go through that kind of a procedure without a parent involved. If there is abuse in the picture then the school should request child protect services step in and request the court appoint a guardian to make those decisions on the child's behalf.

From reading the article it does seem that Washington's law says that someone at any age may obtain an abortion, so of course there's really nothing to do for the parent except what she's doing right now. I do believe the safety of the child should be the utmost concern but a 15 yr. old is just not old enough to figure that out on her own. Once again, if there's abuse involved then bring in a judge to appoint a guardian.

[Tailormyst]

185. And what if the parent demanded the girl give birth and keep the child?

Would that be okay too? There are many reasons why young girls can't go to parents. Not all parents are sane, rational or approachable. Often times the girl would end up physically and/or emotionally abused by the parent.

[apnu]

168. This is interesting: "Jill says her daughter, a pro-life advocate..."

So the daughter, who received an abortion w/out mom's consent is a pro-life (there for anti-choice) advocate? Or is it that Mom ("Jill") thinks her daughter is anti-choice.

I find it interesting to note that an anti-choice person had an abortion. I wonder how many more exist in that movement.

[The2ndWheel]

179. As each day goes by

it keeps making more and more sense for there to be no such thing as parents. Just adults doing their own thing, and children being born/raised in a tax payer funded institution when the state sees fit to add to the population, complete emotional separation, Brave New World style.

Parents are basically middlemen. If you want kids, and want to help take care of them, then go to school to become a professional parent, and you can work at that institution. There just can't be any emotional or physical bond between the adult and the child. There has to be some type of distance at all times.

Parents are inefficient. They're a wasteful step between birth and productive member of society. Too many variables. The children can all start out on different playing fields with so many different parents in so many different socio-economic situations. If every child is born within a federal institution, then they all start out on the same foot. No child has any advantage over any other child. And by paying for it with taxes, each adult no longer has the burden of having to financially raise a child. It frees up the adult to live their own life. It frees up the child from being in a potentially poor situation they had no say in. It frees society to mold the child in the way that it needs to to help ensure that society continues to function into the future.

Give every adult $1 million, or $2 million, or $3 million if you want, to not have children. It would be cheaper than every bailout already on the books.

[RaRa]

202. Always simple if not easy for me

I don't believe in forcing any female to have a baby. People point out all the reasons (some valid) why the mother needs to know and what can go wrong, but it always come down to this simple concept to me. I think most girls do tell their parent(s), but if they don't too bad. It's her body, her life and No One should ever force her to have a baby.

jmo

[Jennicut]

207. Most 15 year olds are terrified to tell their parents. But many don't want to keep the baby.

This girl, if she told her pro-life mother, may have been forced to go through the pregnancy by her. I can see why she did not tell her. As a parent, you have to be open enough for your kids to want to go to you when they are in trouble. My cousin had an abortion at 16. She told her Mom, who let her make the final decision. I don't think 15 is too young to decide what you want to do with your own body. And many of these teens have complicated births. I think the law in WA should be more clear for teens only...maybe 14 and up. 11 through 13 is a bit too young but if a parent has a kid that young having sex there are big issues going on. I also have two daughters though they are only 4 and 5. I would never want to force them to keep the pregnancy going or feel so afraid to tell me and then have the baby that they would not want. I would say I kept no big secrets from my Mom. But I was a virgin until I was 23, so...I had nothing to tell!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

219. 15 year olds can be tried as adults.

Is it so big a stretch to let them decide to terminate or not a pregnancy?

The legality of the situation seems proper to me.

[supernova]

232. Or to get or stop chemo

and other treatments at the end of life. Sadly many kids do have to make these decisions.

[uppityperson]

227. I am very suspicious of this mother, her take on what was said is very odd.

"They just told her that if she concealed it from her family, that it would be free of charge and no financial responsibility." This statement shows me that the mother is clueless or lying or was given false information by someone.

I did a search for more info and can not find any. I'd like to know how she found out (only legal way was for the teen to tell her), I'd like to find out WHAT she was told as that quote is dead wrong. The teen has a Right to Privacy, meaning is legally able to tell NO ONE, and there is funding for abortions so it is likely that it was free. But how those 2 facts got put together into that one statement is...odd.



http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/flyer.htm

ABORTION:
What do you want to know?
Details specific to Washington State

ABORTION IS LEGAL.

It was made legal throughout the US in 1973 by a Supreme Court decision known as Roe v Wade. This decision is based on a woman’s right to privacy regarding medical matters including family planning. The Supreme Court allows some restrictions on the practice of abortion. These restrictions vary from state to state.

ABORTION IS SAFE.

Since 1973, abortion has become the most often performed outpatient surgery. Thousands of doctors across the country have learned to provide abortion using the safest medical techniques. Today, abortion is about 10 times safer than giving birth.

MAKING YOUR OWN DECISION . . .

Becoming a parent is a very important decision that will affect the rest of your life. It’s essential to make your own decision. No one else has the right to tell you what to do. Listen to your own heart.

If you - or someone you know - is pregnant, it’s a good idea to talk about it with someone you trust. Talk with a friend, parent, teacher, relative, or call a clinic. (In Washington, it is NOT necessary to have your parent's permission.)

Once you have made your decision, believe in yourself for making a good decision. Abortion is the right of every woman.

WHAT ABOUT PARENTS?

In Washington state, parent’s permission is NOT required for a minor to obtain abortion, pregnancy tests, birth control methods, or tests for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV/AIDS. It is also not necessary to notify a parent before or after the procedure or test.

When teens feel they cannot tell their parents, they have compelling reasons, such as mentally ill or chemically dependent parents, family violence or incest. Laws cannot mandate good family communications. Desperate teens seek illegal abortion or even commit suicide rather than tell their parents. Parental consent laws are bad medicine and bad legislation. Responsible parents open the doors of communication themselves; they do not expect government to do it for them. Parental consent/notice laws are a form of parents abdicating responsibility to the government to curb the decisions teens may make.

STATE ASSISTANCE

In Washington state, if you are pregnant and low income, you may qualify for "Medical Assistance" -- regardless of your age, and regardless of whether you want to give birth or get an abortion. Contact your local DSHS, to sign up for Medical Assistance for pregnant women.

COST

The cost of an abortion depends on the stage of pregnancy and which clinic is providing services. First trimester procedures run about $500-1000. Second trimester procedures cost $600-10,000. Many insurance plans cover abortion. In Washington, abortion is covered by the state medical assistance. State Medicaid coverage varies from state to state.

INSURANCE

Abortion is covered under many insurance plans. The clinic can help by verifying coverage and other paperwork. It may not be necessary to obtain a referral from a primary care physician before setting up an abortion appointment.

RISKS

Abortion is very safe. It is safer than giving birth and safer than receiving an injection of penicillin. Like all medical procedures, there are some risks with abortion, but the risk is comparatively minimal.

Potential complications from the abortion procedure include

* incomplete abortion - which means the procedure needs to be repeated (a minor complication)
* infection - which is easily treated with antibiotics
* perforation of the uterine wall - for which the treatment may be nothing, to surgical repair in a hospital, depending on the severity.

Less than 1% of all abortion patients experience a major complication, such as serious pelvic infection, hemorrhage requiring a blood transfusion or unintended major surgery. The risks associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy. Hysterectomy is exceedingly rare.

The risk of death associated with childbirth is about 10 times as high as that associated with abortion.

Unless you have a complication during or after the abortion, abortion has no impact on your future ability to get pregnant or carry a pregnancy to term.

Details about the Abortion Procedure

The above information is current as of May 2005. If the Washington State Legislature passes new laws affecting abortion in WA state, this page will be updated. Washington State abortion law is governed by Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion in the U.S. in 1973 and Initiative 120 which was passed by the voters of Washington in 1991.

[supernova]

228. I agree with you

The mother's motivations here seem sketchy. I mean, if I had a dilemma like this in my life, and I reacted the same way this mother did, would my first response, among other things, be to raise a big media ruckus about it?

"OMG! I'm so embarrassed that my teen had an abortion behind my back that I'm going on TV to complain about it!"

Perhaps the girl was right not to tell her, fearing just this reaction.

[uppityperson]

229. Notice they don't give her name but show the mother's picture. "Privacy"?

Indeed

[Ignis]

261. Thanks for your tireless work correcting misunderstandings in this thread

:yourock:

[supernova]

230. I think the law works as it should here

despite the mother's protestations.

Most families will work it out. Whoopee for them. The law is not about them.

The law is about families for whom it is not possible to communicate without threats or abandonment and abuse. There are some parents young women are right to be fearful of. This law is for them.

And for those complaining, think about this. Suppose this girl were not pregnant but dying from cancer. How far would you take it in forcing her to get chemo? 15 is definitely not too young to realize the consequences of treatment or of stopping treatment. It is her body. She gets the final say in what happens to it.

[NickB79]

244. She signed a CONSENT FORM. Did she not read it AT ALL?

Or does the consent form not specify what she was giving consent for?

[Hepburn]

250. Here is the consent form the mother signed:

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?sid=301972&nid=11

The mother gave permission for her daughter to "...independently access reproductive health care at any age..."

Seems to me the mother consented to the treatment ~~ if she is so concerned about her child, maybe she should have investigated what the heck she signed BEFORE she signed it.

JMHO

[supernova]

254. Either the mother is grand-standing or she's

got reading comprehension problems.

It says right on the form that the school clinic will arrange for referrals and transport to outside specialists if needed.

[Hepburn]

255. I hear ya...

...nothing should have been a surprise to mom. Seems to me that she was not concerned and just signed.

However...since the state law allows for the procedure, what happened was not the only avenue. If she wanted an abortion and it was legal without parental consent, it would have happened one way or another -- whether that consent form had been signed or not.

[hayu_lol]

256. We are missing so much critical detail in this story...

that it makes it difficult to understand the whys of this case. Was it, for example, a radical fundie family where this girl had one of those father/daughter dances where she pledged her virginity to her dad? If so, don't blame the girl from doing this on her own. Or, some variation of this which does exist as we all know.

Abortion in this case had a better outcome for this girl than live birth would have produced. It is also much safer. Additionally, how had the girl planned to live her life? College? Travel?

Too much missing except that state law was followed to the letter of that law. Compare this with the back street butchers of yesterday. As a parent, I too would be angry and upset at not being notified...but then, I was always a concerned and active parent. Perhaps this girl's family is on the looney tune side of the equation.

Moot point here is that it is a done deal. Certainly the father(of the fetus)should be identified.

[uppityperson]

259. Why should the "father (of the fetus)" be identified? Seriously, why?

The only reason I could see for anyone IDing him would be in case of statutory rape. Otherwise, no one's business.

[Hepburn]

260. I agree...

...IMO, getting into that area seems to imply that the father may have rights in regard to the mother having an abortion.

[truthisfreedom]

313. This falls completely on the mother. She should have read the form she signed.

The daughter made her own choice, and the mother facilitated the abortion.

[Hepburn]

318. I agree totally....

...that consent form allows for what happens. Now mom blames the school for sort of kidnapping her child and forcing an abortion on her??? (Well, that is what mom sounds like to me.) Where is HER responsibility for this?

[FedUpWithIt All]

264. School should not facilitate medical procedures. They should have taken an advisory position IMHO.

A public school cannot take a kid to McDonald's without a consent form. Sending a 15 year old off in a taxi alone to have a non-emergency medical procedure done seems very irresponsible. What if something had gone wrong. Is the public school then liable in some way?

Also i don't think it is far sighted to conceive a scenario where a teen might claim coercion by school counselors when confronted after the fact. I wonder what tone this discussion would take within that scenario. How qualified is the average high school to deal with anything beyond an advisory role in dealing with teen sexual health. I don't not think schools should be involved in any manner beyond an advisory role.

I am also curious if the actions that led to the girl's abortion being facilitated took place immediately after the girl found out she was pregnant.

[Hepburn]

267. They had a consent form from the mother...

...specific as to reproductive healthcare.

[FedUpWithIt All]

270. I did not catch that part. That certainly changes things.

I hope the attention this receives does not cause some parents to begin withdrawing consent for other reproductive support for the students. Parents who would ordinarily allow the school to advise and supply birth control to their child might find this aspect a bit difficult to deal with.

[uppityperson]

273. If it does, those kids can still get info/help @ county health dept clinics, as well as

planned parenthood, family planning, other such low cost places. But I agree that making them have to go that extra step for reproductive health support is not a good idea.

[uppityperson]

268. Did you miss the part of the story where it is a clinic staffed by health care providers, located in

the school? That "the school" did not "facilitate medical procedures" but the clinic located in the school did, according to law?

It doesn't matter "how qualified is the average high school (counselors)" since they were not involved.

[DebbieCDC]

269. I find it really strange there are NO updates on this story in our local Seattle media

And the video has been pulled from KOMO's website

Something fishy here methinks.

On edit: I see they reposted the video -- it was pulled earlier today, but now it's back. Still no update.

[Hepburn]

271. You know....that cross my mind, too.

Maybe some anti-choicer trying to cause problems...??? :shrug:

[uppityperson]

272. Only update I can find is FOX, here... has a bit more

I am assuming that it is because of Right to Privacy. By the mother talking in public, by publishing her picture, the girl has been identified.

Here is a bit more, only update I can find, still talks about what mother says her daughter told her she was told. Ever play "telephone"?

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/03/24/school-abortion/?test=latestnews

The mother of a 15-year old Seattle girl is furious because her daughter had an abortion with some assistance from the nurses at her school and she was never informed. She only found out after the fact when her daughter had an unrelated health problem and finally revealed she had terminated a pregnancy.

The girl attends Ballard High School in Seattle which has a teen health clinic inside. The clinic is run by Swedish Medical Center and administered by the King County Health Department. According to the girl's mother, who did not want to give her name, her daughter was given a pregnancy test at the school clinic which was positive. She was then told by the nurse that she could have an abortion at a nearby Planned Parenthood clinic without her parents' knowledge.

The girl was then called a taxi, which picked her up at the school and drove her by herself to Planned Parenthood. The mother says once at the clinic a Planned Parenthood worker discouraged her daughter from informing her parents. She claims the worker told her that if she kept quiet the procedure would be free, but if she told her parents they would have to pay for the abortion.

The mother acknowledges she signed a consent form at the beginning of the school year giving the school permission to administer health care off campus. She assumed that meant in cases of emergency. Nowhere on the form is abortion mentioned.

A King County Health official would not speak about any of the details surrounding the case, but did say that no laws were broken. In Washington State a girl of any age can get an abortion without her parent's being notified. It's one of 15 states without either parental consent or parental notification laws. The county health official also says that schools routinely send kids in taxis when they're taken off campus for medical procedures.

[gravity]

280. It's the daughter's decision

I can understand the mother's frustration, but teens who get pregnant should be allowed to get an abortion without consent from the parents.

[tammywammy]

282. Well, how do you even know the school promoted abortion?

What if the daughter just told the nurse "I'm pregnant and I'm scared and don't know what to do." The nurse I would assume would just send her to the clinic without saying do this or do that. Maybe the clinic talked with her and discussed her choices.

Did this mother even know her daughter was sexually active? She's mad at the school, but she should be upset with herself. And to make things worse, the daughter's private medical decision is now being posted all over the place. The mother showed her face and is out giving interviews, I'm sure people know who had the abortion now. That's cruel to place your daughter in the middle of something like this.

Also, the mother should realize, her daughter's obviously not "pro-life."

[Blasphemer]

294. I'm thankful that she had the right to make her own choice and the right to confidentiality

She may have been forced to go through with the pregnancy otherwise. To me, that is 1000x worse. Sure, it's best if parents and their teenagers have the kind of relationship where the teenagers can be honest about such things but it's simply not possible in some situations. If I had a RW nut job for a parent, I would want the law to protect my reproductive rights and my privacy.

[alp227]

297. A pro-life activist? Really?

I guess she might've had an epiphany, I dunno. :eyes:

I just read about this on Jonathan Turley's blog. He said: "I have long opposed such a sweeping rule and denial of parental rights. <...> While I support the right of a teenager to seek a court exception for parental notification, I believe parents have a right to be informed of such a procedure at a minimum." But sh** can happen with parental notification (who knows if the parents lack compassion?) or carrying on with the pregnancy (mother needs to quit school, can't find a job or move on with her own life).

Pretty soon, will student's mother be campaigning to change the law in the state to require parental notification?

I live in California. All the ballot propositions for parental notification for minors' abortion have failed. Most recently, (by a thin 52-48 margin though like that of Prop 8). Prop 73 (2005) and Prop 85 (2006) were the other similar initiatives; the No votes outnumbered the Yes votes by similarly close margins.

Regarding repro choice and teen pregnancy, I could go on and on about income, lack of education, influence by religion, and the right-wing assault on sex ed.

[New Dawn]

298. It should be the daughter's choice.

If she is old enough to get pregnant, she is old enough to choose whether or not she wants to terminate the pregnancy.

[toopers]

306. Do you really believe that reproductive maturity . . .

is equivalent to mental maturity? I knew of 12 year old girls who went through menarche. I am not sure that a 12 year old should be making decisions about abortion.

[uppityperson]

307. Do you believe 12 yr olds are mature enough to become mothers?

You don't believe a 12 yr old should be "making decisions about abortion", so you believe they are capable of becoming mothers instead? Or do you mean leave the decision up to the 12 yr old's parent to decide if she have an abortion or become a mother?

[toopers]

312. No, both decisions should involve the child's parents.

EOM

[uppityperson]

322. The parents should decide whether she has an abortion or gives birth. Incredible. nt

[Hepburn]

337. Kids are just chattel, right?

:sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

373. "Mature enough for motherhood, mature enough for CHOICE" . . .

[uppityperson]

375. Very much so. Another DUer wrote this explanation...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4317304&mesg_id=4321854

[defendandprotect]

402. Interesting -- compassionate -- aware --

:)

[dugaresa]

315. how many 12 year olds are willingly sexually active with partners

today is 2010, this isn't 1910 or 1810. The world is full of information. The young woman and some young man had sex. If the young woman was so anti-choice then she would have gone home and told her mother.

But, like a lot of anti-choice hypocrites she was probably ashamed and fearful of a future with a baby she didn't want so now it is everyone else's fault but her own.

No one forced her, they just helped her to keep it quiet until the cat got out of the bag.

[musette_sf]

364. + 1

[TheMadMonk]

305. "MY child. MY property. MY descision."

I CAN NOT believe the number of (presumably) progressive people here who (damned out of their own mouths) would see this as a personal affront if it were to happen to them/their child.

To ALL OF YOU who believe you should have an absolute right to be a part of the decision loop in situations like this. YOU ARE THE REASON FOR THE LAWS WHICH KEEP YOU OUT OF THE LOOP.

[Thor_MN]

309. What we have here, is failure to communicate

And that communication is between the 15 year old and her mother. It is not the county's responsibilty to keep line of communication open between teens and tehir parents. The school had nothing to do with it, and even if it did it is not their responsibility either.

"Jill" can have whatever sort of tantrums she wants, but there is no one for her to blame other than herself.

[JVS]

310. What did the consent form say?

[truthisfreedom]

314. It said "Youth may independently access reproductive health care at any age." Form inside:

[JVS]

351. Thanks.

[muriel_volestrangler]

384. And it explicitly says "I understand the youth's consent is legally required for release of ...

... information about ... pregnancy". So the mother's claim "I just though this meant birth control" doesn't hold up.

[Hepburn]

319. Link:

(I posted it above.)

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?sid=301972&nid=11

It basically says the mom agreed that her daughter had the right to consent to "reproductive healthcare."

[tledford]

346. It's usually a good idea to read stuff you sign. eom

[proud patriot]

347. Planned parenthood will keep a girls info private from parents

after the age 13. It's the Girl's choice not Her Mother's .
Had the daughter felt safe telling the parent should would have.

When I was 16 and pregnant I told my dad, he helped me through the
process of choosing an Abortion .

[marshall]

352. How did they come up with the age of 13 to start privacy?

Was it an internal decision?

[proud patriot]

428. I don't know

perhaps it has to do with Mentration or sexual activity .

[superconnected]

358. My dad tried to talk my sister into one when she got pregnant at 15 but my sister insisted she

wanted to keep the kid, so my parents supported her in that.

We have cool parents. Not all parents will really let the kids choose, even after talking about it with them. I support the 15 yo's decision.

[Jax]

413. kick

proud patriot.

proud patriot.





Alyce

[proud patriot]

429. Jax Jax

Thanks :hi:

[marshall]

354. What'd you do in school today, Lolita?

Not much. Had a test in first period. Watched a video for second period. Third period we had a substitute. Oh, then after lunch I had an abortion.

[SKKY]

355. I'm as pro-choice as anyone else...

...but for ADULTS, not 15 year-old kids. This can't be good.

[uppityperson]

368. 15 yr olds should not have the choice of a legal hygienic abortion? They should instead give birth?

Are you serious that 15 yr olds should not have a choice?

[SKKY]

403. Not without their parent's consent...

...Thant's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

[uppityperson]

406. You go beyond "notification" to "CONSENT"? A teen can't have an abortion unless parent CONSENTS?

Seriously? A parent must consent to a teen having an abortion? Not just be notified of it, but actually say "yes" or "no"?

Giving a parent ultimate control if their teen has an abortion or not is no way "pro-choice".

What if a parent says a teen MUST have an abortion, yet the teen is ready, willing and able to give birth and raise it along with whatever support system she may have (let's say, for example, a partner who is excited about also becoming a parent)? What if a teen wants an abortion, is in no way physically, emotionally or in any way ready to be pregnant, give birth, have a baby, yet the parents say she CAN NOT have an abortion?

Giving someone else ultimate control is in no way "pro-life".

[uppityperson]

407. "Pro-choice" with CONSENT of someone else does not = pro-choice.

Double checking, maybe you meant "notification", not consent. Notification means she would have to tell a parent. Consent means the parent would have the choice of saying abortion or not.

You are "pro-choice", just so long as someone else has the choice?

Giving someone else the right to make the choice for you is NOT pro-choice.

[SKKY]

410. OK, Legally she's a minor...

...that's my point. She can't even get a piercing without her parent's consent, and you're arguing she should be able to get an abortion? It's a difficult issue, but her age and legal status as a minor seals the deal for me.

[uppityperson]

411. Legally, she CAN get an abortion. Not me arguing that but the law.

Read this post for a further discussion of why this is the law.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4317304&mesg_id=4321854

By the way, she can get a piercing without her parent's consent. There has been talk about regulating that, but as far as I can tell, only tattoos are regulated by age. She can also get other health care without her parent's consent, including psychiatric and other reproductive health care (including std exams and contraceptives).

However, I am saying that giving the "choice", the decision, to someone else is very much NOT pro-choice. Making access to a legal, hygienic abortion dependent upon a parent's or spouse's permission is not pro-choice.

You didn't answer my questions about what happens if the teen wants/doesn't want an abortion, and the parent says must/mustn't. What happens then if "consent" were an issue?

One more for you. Since she is a Minor, should she be able to get contraceptives without her parent's consent?

Finally, you seriously are talking consent, not notification?

[defendandprotect]

401. Roe vs Wade is about the pregnant female . . .

not her mother, not her grandmother -- her choice.

Are you saying that she shouldn't have a choice--?

Then who should have that choice over her body--?

Should her mother make the decision?

Should a 15 year old getting an abortion be made more difficult, more complicated?

Should there be consent laws?

Is there an illusion those things would somehow make her safer, protect her?

Rather, they might have forced her to an illegal abortion -- PLUS then having to pay

for it -- another delay in time.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

357. Did I stumble into a time warp and wind up in 1982?

Fucking Christ, it's better for a 15 year old to have an abortion than to have a child.

[musette_sf]

362. I am so happy that this young woman's rights were protected

and exercised. I'm sure she is grateful too, to live in a state that respects her autonomy.

I'm SURE that Mom would have been just a paragon of love, compassion and understanding had her daughter come to her first. :sarcasm:

Because what every accidentally preggo 15 year old needs is to be harangued with BS G-d-blather, and then be forced to give birth. THAT'LL show HER!!!

:grr:

(Besides, there's at least a 50% chance that if she HAD told mom first, she and the young miss would have been paying a covert visit for services, to the place they protest at every week. Happens more often than some would think.)

[zanana1]

365. I doubt the school" facilitated" her abortion.

Abortion is legal. If somebody wants one, they can get one. These parents sound like they're blaming the school for what they think is immoral activity of the part of their daughter. High school kids are minors, but they aren't two or three years old; they're old enough to know what they want and have to take responsibility for what they do. I'm tired of teenagers being treated like infants.

[LWolf]

367. The real question is, was she given an abortion without her consent?

Whose idea was it?

[uppityperson]

372. The 15 yr old consented, it was her idea. What are you talking about?

[LWolf]

382. I'm talking about the mother's insinuation

that the school did it TO her, instead of it being her choice. That's a dangerous allegation.

[uppityperson]

391. Yup. And the mom talking out like this rather breaks Right to Privacy laws too it seems

I'd be really pissed.


Yes, "the school did this to her" vs "she chose to do this" is a big difference.

[defendandprotect]

400. Where did you get that idea?

I don't think that even the Mother is suggesting that her "pro-life" daughter

didn't consent! Or that it was someone else's idea that she undergo an abortion?

Even if a boyfriend was pushing for an abortion, that doesn't seem to be info that

came to the mother?

[defendandprotect]

371. There's also a male involved in this . . . have we heard from him?

PLUS . . . Roe vs Wade is about a pregnant female . . .

not her mother, father, sister, brother -- or grandmother!!

However, presumably, if she has trust in these people, she will discuss it with them.

[defendandprotect]

374. How did the mother find out, btw?

[uppityperson]

378. I could find only 1 fu story, said kid had some unrelated health care issue months later

and it came out then, somehow, that she'd had an abortion. I think it was a foxnewsblog, can only find this one now: http://onthescene.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/03/25/seattle-school-helps-give-out-secret-abortions/

Here is one fu article: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011445397_abortion26m.html

http://www.komonews.com/opinion/kenschram/89270437.html
Last Fall, the clinic run by Swedish Medical Center at Ballard High School put a 15-year-old girl into a cab and sent her off to have an abortion in the middle of her school day.

Good grief the headlines in the search are obnoxious, "Seattle - Ballard High School Gives Abortions During School Hours" "School-Assisted Abortion", "School officials in Seattle believe in the superior role of the "community" so much so that tax funded campus health centers have been transformed into abortion clinics. During school hours, while mothers and fathers naively believe children are at cheerleading practice, underage girls are being treated to suction and curettage under the benevolent eye of governmental guardians.".

Aside from it not BEING the school, aside from it being law that all females have right to privacy regarding reproductive health, a pregnant teen can simply go to one of the public health clinics off campus, or planned parenthood or family planning or even their OWN doctor and get the SAME services without any parental notification.

[defendandprotect]

399. Thank you --

I owe you a few searches!!

Seattle’s famously lousy wet weather is extra depressing today. My job is to interview parents outside Ballard High School and get their reaction to the news that their daughters can get help from the school to have an abortion without them ever knowing it.

From the guidelines you provided re the age of consent I'd say that Washington State has

some fairly intelligent people working for people's interests.

We seem to have a generally Puritanical view of who gets pregnant and how, it seems.

If we truly want to protect the lives of young girls -- and their futures -- it seems to me this

is the way to do it.

Closing off options -- making getting an abortion more difficult -- certainly doesn't make things

any safer for the teenager.

Don't know what the parents finally said about this, but if they are concerned about their

daughters then they want to keep them from illegal abortions and/or needing to raise funds to

pay for an abortion.

What will happen now -- will parents all refuse to sign these consent forms?

of course, there's also a male involved here somewhere -- taking none of the heat!

And parents of male teenagers are perhaps thinking about that, as well?

[marshall]

437. The daughter might have had post-procedure cramping or bleeding

She might have been forced to tell her mohter in order to get proper medical attention.

[prayin4rain]

405. I am slightly conflicted on this.... but in the end, I think it is for the best. n/t

[Eg-ptiangirl]

418. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr this is not a good mom

She has no right to spread the news about her daughter pregnancy and her daughter has the right to abort.
Any way it is stupid teens in America do sex at this young age, Parents should prevent that.

[xynthee]

430. Wow, this thread has been a real eye-opener!

:wow: It's kinda like that thread last week with the soldier bragging about how many unarmed American civilians he could take out in the event of civil unrest (and 75% of DUers were cheering him on). I'm still having nightmares about that.

This thread is just as worrisome and illustrates just how easily fundamental rights can be eroded in the name of (whatever). If so-called Democrats are in favor of forcing pregnant girls to notify their parents before getting an abortion, I shudder to think of how easy it would be to put a law like that on the books all over the nation. :scared:

If Democrats cannot be counted on to be practical about emotional (but oh-so-important) issues like this, we're screwed!

It's really very simple: in most cases, it's preferable for parents to be informed about a daughter's pregnancy. In fact, clinic personnel should be encouraging the girl to tell her parents unless it will endanger her safety or well-being, if there's a danger of being kicked out of the house, or if there's a danger of the parents forcing her to have the baby against her will. At no point, however, should parental consent or even notification be required.

If parents want to ensure their daughters will tell them when they're pregnant, they need to make it abundantly clear ahead of time that they will support her decision, whatever it may be, they will never kick her out of the house, they will never force her to have the baby against her will or abuse her in ANY way upon finding out.

Why is this so hard to understand??

[zelta gaisma]

431. she not only didn't have a say in her daughter's abortion, but also didn't know about it.....

if her daughter didn't tell her it's none of her business, i'd say the same about my own daughter. how did she find out i wonder

[marshall]

435. She might have found out when her daughter started bleeding or having other after effects?

That's one of the many reasons parents should in most cases be aware of their children's health care. Mom should know what is happening if her daughter starts spotting or having other post-abortion problems.