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Tripmann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 10:38 AM
Original message
Abuse protest at Easter Sunday mass
Source: Breaking news.ie

Easter Sunday Mass at Dublin’s Pro Cathedral was briefly interrupted as protesters placed children’s shoes at the altar to represent the victims of clerical sex abuse.

Around five people walked to the steps of the altar where one man shouted “shame” at Archbishop Diarmuid Martin, who was celebrating the packed Mass.

Other protesters who mingled outside the city centre cathedral claimed they also tried to leave shoes but were prevented by gardaí.

------------------------


Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/abuse-protest-at-easter-sunday-mass-452646.html




I'm very proud to be Irish right now.

T
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. it can't be ignored
good for the protestors
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patrick t. cakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. as am i
K/R
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
50. IN A RELATED STORY... chocolate bunny found with a wild hare up his ass
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. goooooooooo Irish!!!!!!!!!!! K&R eom
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. good. more power to the protesters
nt
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
37. Criminals
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Irish prelates note regret for reported child abuse (Zenit 2009)
... Archbishop Diarmuid Martin of Dublin released a statement urging "all church organizations involved in this report" to "seriously examine ... how their ideals became debased by systematic abuse."

He underlined the report's recommendations for safeguarding children in the future, saying, "We must find ways of ensuring that the cries and anxieties of children are heard and listened to."

"If we truly regret what happened in the past we must commit ourselves to a very different future," the archbishop affirmed ...

http://www.zenit.org/article-25966?l=english
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The solution is two pronged
Reports of abuse by more recently ordained priests is much less than reports of abuse by priests ordained thirty or more years ago. I imagine it is a mix of the church being more aware about who they are ordaining and how they are training them, and also parents being more aware of their clergy and wisely NOT leaving their children in situations where they can be alone with a priest.
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. I don't think so...
"Reports of abuse by more recently ordained priests is much less than reports of abuse by priests ordained thirty or more years ago. I imagine it is a mix of the church being more aware about who they are ordaining..."

The more recent batches of priests are even worse in some respects. They tend to be more dogmatic, rigid, conservative and arrogant. In the 60s and 70s many more would have been liberal leaning vs. today's graduates who tend to be firmly ensconced in the right... and as we have seen repeatedly, the right-wing mindset is even MORE inclined toward these types of crimes.

Furthermore, it is very important to keep in mind that the frequency of reports of abuse in the present is a very poor measure of what is actually occurring in the present. We're only recently hearing about abuses that occurred 40 years ago, right? Just because we weren't hearing about it 40 years ago doesn't mean it wasn't happening then - as we now know. And clearly the Church has not changed. Cover-ups are ongoing, predators are still being protected, lies continue to be uncovered, and foot-dragging and obfuscation is as prevalent as it ever was.

Regarding the notion that parents are wisely NOT leaving their children in situations where they can be alone with a priest... that may be true of some parents in some of the higher socio-economic areas. But this is a world-wide problem. There are literally billions of people who do not have the access to information that we have. And we now know that the Catholic Church has a history of dumping predatory priests in remote areas where their crimes are less likely to come to light (i.e. the Alaska/Jesuit dumping ground).

So... it would be very dangerous to presume that things have improved. If I had to bet on it, I'd bet that things are just as bad as they have ever been. We just haven't heard about it yet, and it may be years before we do. It is for these reasons that I don't believe your two-pronged solution is the answer. The only two-pronged solution that will work is this:

(1) cut off their money
(2) prosecute

The hierarchy is thumbing its nose at the world while they continue to create much harm in many spheres. It is a hopelessly messed up organization and it needs to be brought down.

IMHO.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. True, we may have to wait and see
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm

This website purports to give a study produced by John Jay College that is very interesting.

My idea about parents not leaving their children alone with priests (and note that the study says over forty percent of the abuse takes place in the priest's home) is anecdotal. My brother lives in Ireland and he told me a few years ago (when the US was in the throes of the beginning of its priest sex abuse) that people he spoke to in Ireland thought it was remarkably naive and foolish for American parents to leave their children unaccompanied with a priest.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Excellent post . . . and, we should keep in mind that if the Insurance companies ....
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 07:32 PM by defendandprotect
had been willing to continue to insure the church, much of this would have never been known!

The psychiatrists weren't free, of course, to report these priests due to medical

confidentiality, I presume. And because so many priests had left the church, the doctors

were being pressured to return these priests to service!

It was the INSURANCE COMPANIES who would no longer take the risks given the evidence of what

they were seeing who basically brought this immoral church to some kind of accountability!



PS: Also want to affirm what you are saying about the new priests . . .

I had an occassion a few years back to talk with one of them -- and it was frightening,

on every issue we are expressing concerne with!! Total arrogance -- total stonewalling!

But ready to serve -- and progress in the church!!

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Walk away Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. +1 You said it all ... bring it down! nt
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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. GET THEM BEFORE 6 AND WE WILL HAVE THEM FOREVER
ALL ABOUT POWER
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. You can find various cultural slogans of that sort: there is, for example,
the Prussian militarists' If the heart is not hardened in youth, it will never harden
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. Martin against 'fast-track healing' over abuse (1 April 2010)
Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin ... at Holy Thursday mass at the Pro-Cathedral ... said: 'Shameful abuse took place within the Church of Christ. The response was hopelessly inadequate.'

'I do not wish to give the impression that I want to go on forever hammering home a message of grief about the past, that I am obsessed with the past. Some ask me: 'Can we not leave all that aside now, proclaim closure and move on?'

'I cannot agree. There can be no overlooking the past. There is no short-cut in addressing the past.'

'The credibility of the Church in this diocese of Dublin will only be regained when we honestly recognise the failures of the past, whatever our share of responsibility for them ...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0401/abuse.html
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. I say that Easter is a perfect day to protest abusive Catholic priests.
IMHO
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Catholic Hierarchy Rallies Around Pope on Easter"
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/world/europe/05pope.html
VATICAN CITY — A prominent cardinal, in a marked departure from Easter Mass tradition at the Holy See, stood before Pope Benedict XVI on Sunday and delivered a very public show of support in the face of growing anger over the Catholic Church’s sex abuse scandal — a topic that the pope stayed resolutely aloof from in his Easter appearances.

The remarks by the prelate, Angelo Sodano, a former secretary of state and the dean of the college of cardinals, came among a chorus of denunciations by church officials of what they have framed as a campaign of denigration of the church and its pontiff.

I fear that those of us who hope to see any change in the Catholic Church to come from this are going to be sorely disappointed. The conservatives who hold most of the power in the Church are circling their wagons and rallying around the Pope.

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Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Why doesn't the law arrest church officials who cover up attacks on children?
If they would jail those responsible for shielding child molesters, the rest of them would either shape up or wind up behind bars.

Authorities may not be able to touch those in the Vatican since Vatican City is a sovereign nation, but law enforcement in every other country of the world ought to start mass sweeps to arrest every abusive priest and charge those covering up the crimes with being accessories to crimes, conspirators, obstructing justice, and so forth.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. I was raised Catholic
and left the church decades ago but I can truly say, I never encountered anything but the most dedicated loving priests.
I abhor what has happened but deplore that all Catholic clergy are being painted with a broad brush. The many dedicated hard working Priests out there must be appalled at how the Vatican is handling this.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. I was also raised Catholic and never had a problem with a priest ....
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 06:50 PM by defendandprotect
however, the message was certainly abusive -- especially to females.

It's an overall effort to control everything -- the body, mind, sexuality, free will.

And the violent history of the church is also something too few are aware of and too few

take into account. This is a church with a long list of enemies -- and it certainly played

a role in paving the way for the Jewish Holocaust in Germany with its anti-semitic teachings

over a thousand years!

And -- I disagree that all priests are being "painted with a broad brush."

Most of the disdain is being directed at the Benedict policy which precluded reporting these

priests to authorities -- which precluded actually dealing honestly with the parents/victims --

demanding their silence -- and which precluded getting those pedophile offenders OUT of the church!

Not only that, but repeatedly transferring them to locations with children -- and ensuring that

the new parish/members were uninformed!

And, currently these pedophiles are being brought back in!!


It's the cover up that is haunting everyone -- and the behavior of hierarchy that is so shocking

and immoral and which everyone is reacting to.

PLUS -- did you miss that the Church continues to tell parishoners to account for their sins?


While actually in some areas asking for more understanding for the priests predophiles --

noting that the members weren't sympathetic enough!!! -- and that they also weren't doing

enough to contribute to the costs of the lawsuits!!!


What a joke!


PS: Keep in mind that the church also continues to try to blame homosexual priests for problems

in the church -- whereas hetereosexual males are 100X more likely to sexually abuse children!

And, further, the message of a priesthood forbidden to marry carries another anti-female message,

as well!



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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #26
62. Raised Catholic and agree with every single word you've written.
:hi:
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
43. "Priests out there must be appalled at how the Vatican is handling this."
And yet not one of them speaks up.

Why assume they are appalled?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
56. True . . . I don't see any of them protesting . . . or calling for resignations . . !!
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Justice denied
The pope and the leadership get an exemption from persecution because the Pope serves as a head of state -- a most fucked up state, though.
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fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. My thoughts too
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 04:28 PM by fedsron2us
Child abuse is a crime so why are not the perpetrators and those who covered up their offences cooling their heels behind bars.

It is not just the Church hierarchy who have awkward questions to answer here.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. I agree, and the parishioners should be the ones insisting. nm
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. Correct . .. they have aided and abetted crime . . .
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. Look who the bishops are supporting
The Catholic Bishops are pulling out all the stops to back their Republican allies. As long as they are, none of those crooks are going to ever be accountable for any of their crimes.

Frankly, I think all of them out to be indicted, convicted and jailed for their enabling these monsters. Especially Phony Mahoney here in Los Angeles!
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
45. Did church officials actually break any law? If not, laws need to change.
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 08:37 AM by No Elephants
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Again they take the side of the establishment over the real victims.
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 02:38 PM by calimary
And the establishment grabs the claim of victimhood.

I went to Mass this morning specifically to hear what, if anything, might be said about this.

NOT A WORD. Not even a veiled metaphor about suffering or persecution - on anyone's part. NOTHING.

VERY disappointing and annoying, but somehow not at all surprising.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Silence is also an answer . . . !!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Yes indeed. That very act, the lack of response, certainly the lack of acknowledgement,
speaks - as they say - volumes. A whole Vatican Library full of volumes.
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felinetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. How I wish this would be the end of Catholicism. Religions are evil.
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activa8tr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'd have to agree with your sentiment, especially as it relates to "religions" that
reinforce the supremacy of men over women, refuse to allow their leadership to enter into intimate life partnerships, and refuse to follow valid laws of the nation in which they propagate their "religion".

Time for the Catholic church to reform, to let women share in the leadership at equal status and power, to allow men and women , (or men and men, and women and women), to join in lifelong partnerships, and to abide by the laws of all nations within which they operate.

This scandal covering up will NOT go away until people who are involved in this "religion" take on a bit more humanity! IMO.
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Walk away Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
40. Absolutely!
It's just so crazy!
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. The silence of the pope and the Catholic leadership is deafening
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 03:50 PM by Politicub
They nod their heads in tacit approval of the abuse when they ignore the fact that child rape was perpetuated and COVERED UP.

And the pope had a direct hand in it. We've seen over and over and over again -- The cover up is always worse than the crime. What else will come to light?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. The silence of the Catholic parishioners is what is unforgivable.
Their silence indicates acceptance.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I would love to see the laity start a grassroots movement for change
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 06:18 PM by Politicub
I want to believe many good people who are catholics are disgusted by the nonchalance by the church leadership.

It would be great for parishioners to put pressure on the Vatican through a grassroots movement. The pope and his royal court probably think non-Catholics are heathen and unworthy of criticizing the acts of the church, even when the church commits acts illegal by secular law standards. Maybe the people who make up some of the 1 bn Catholics can push for change.

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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The reason they wont is worthy of study. Why will otherwise honest, loving, smart people
follow a dogma that will allow abuse of children? They have for centuries and will continue. But why? To me it signifies a danger with religion. Religions dont have to be dangerous and some arent, but some are very dangerous. Control of the parishioners is paramount. I believe that what happens is brainwashing from an early age. The Pope is near God and the priests are more than mortal. Do what the priests want at risk of offending God.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. I agree with you re: danger of religion because of the groupthink it fosters.
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 07:00 PM by Politicub
It's pretty darn scary how it enables so many to close their eyes.

:fistbump:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Agree, they are taught obedience to the church and NOT to think for themselves ...
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 07:45 PM by defendandprotect
PLUS they seem more inclined to see this as "church bashing" by atheists, humanists,

and Jews!! And, basically that's what they're being told.

The idea of looking into this for themselves -- studying what has happened over 2,000

years -- studying the history of the abuse internationally -- or challenging unmarried

priesthood, or the male-supremacy of the church would never occur to them!

It obviously does occur to quite a few, however, and then those protesting seem to be

seen as the "enemy" rather than someone to be listened to or follow!!

Some parents must be concerned for their children!!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Yes -- and especially to get control over the money and policies . . .!!!
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. never happen. nm
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
48. There has been at least one for years. Voice of the Faithful.
www.votf.org
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. Ahem....
Voice of the Faithful is a lay organization of faithful Catholics, who organized in 2002 as a response to the sexual abuse crisis in the Catholic Church. We started in the basement of a church in Wellesley, Massachusetts, and have since expanded worldwide with more than 30,000 members.

Our Mission is to provide a prayerful voice, attentive to the Spirit, through which the faithful can actively participate in the governance and guidance of the Catholic Church.

We work towards achieving our mission by pursuing three goals:

* Support survivors of clergy sexual abuse
* Support priests of integrity
* Shape structural change within the Catholic Church

http://www.votf.org
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. votf neither has or ever will have any teeth.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. ... we actually had a Catholic poster here tell me he goes to church, makes his donation . . .
goes home and has a beer and relaxes -- not concerned with what he has no control over!!!

That mentality -- or lack of it -- certainly helps the hierarchy out!!

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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
46. I teach in a Catholic school. There's no silence over here.
I hear about it from parents, from the students, from teachers and staff. Everyone who has anything to do with the schools has to go through a background check, special training on how to spot a child being abused, and has to go through staff training updates regularly. I'm a long-term sub for a teacher who was caught alone in his classroom with a female student and who was summarily fired. No questions asked--it was inappropriate, and he knew that. His name isn't even mentioned anymore anywhere, and the principal gets a very dark look on her face whenever anyone mentions it.

I went to a public high school where a teacher married a former student he'd had an affair with while she was there and another teacher kept teaching even after many issues came to light with how he treated female students (he was skeezy--I had him as a student and did everything I could to avoid the prick). That kind of stuff would never be tolerated in my Catholic school, and the parents are the reasons why--they're mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

Sure, we made our donations level so we could renovate the school, but people knew exactly where that money was going, and it wasn't going to the archdiocese. Those donations are down, from what I've heard, and aren't likely to go back up again.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. I appreciate your post. I am glad for the actions your school is taking. But
none of those actions have anything to do with pedophile priests that decade after decade abuse children. I am glad teachers are held to tight standards but teachers are not the problem. The Church refuses to admit the problem and hold priests to tight standards. Why are these priests and those that enable and protect them not held to the standards of the general public? The teacher you mentioned got fired just for inappropriate conduct. When priests do the unthinkable, they are not fired, they are not put in jail, they are moved to where no one knows the danger. This behavior will not change until the parishioners force the issue, I havent seen any movement in that direction. Please tell me if I am wrong.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. There are movements within the church, though.
They've also lost parishioners by the droves. So, between the groups advocating for priests to be sent to jail, the parishioners leaving or just plain not giving money for anything as a way to get the higher-ups' attention, and parents fighting for priests to have the same accountability as teachers, stuff is happening. It probably depends on your diocese and which bishop you have, though, as is often the case in the RCC and Orthodox churches.

The schools have been a part of the problem, too. Kids have been abused in the schools in the past, so cleaning up the schools is a serious priority as well. If we can get those cleaned up and operating under tighter restrictions (and bigger consequences), it sets the stage for everywhere else.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. I am very glad to hear that. However, I dont think the situation will change until
the church admits that priests are human and should not be trusted any more than other men. They are not closer to God. Secondly, the church should have a tough policy starting today with regard to pedophile priests. They should be turned over to the law authorities along with anyone that hides their crimes. And I think the church should embrace homosexuals as children of God and stop persecuting them.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. I agree with every single one of those. Every one.
Add in nuns and monks, all clergy and laity in any position of power, and I'm totally for that.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Wonderful. Thanks for the great dialog. nm
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
47. It's not only silence. The laity often defends or protects the abuser.
From the article linked in the OP:



"Both women said they were verbally abused by parishioners as they walked up the aisle."

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/abuse-protest-at-easter-sunday-mass-452646.html#ixzz0kESDeibJ


I was in Massachusetts throughout the lawsuits there. I had folks tell me the kids were old enough to know what they were doing. And you should have seen some of the cartoons in church-sponsored publications out of Fall River, Mass. Unreal.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
35. Also Irish . . . and would like to see this church purged from Ireland...!!!
The Vatican and the English throne are the last of the Royals --

but the elites have morphed into corporations and the issue remains to take control!

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
44. My background is also Irish Catholic.
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 04:52 AM by Enthusiast
I posted the following in a related thread. It's just an observation not an advocacy of anything in particular.

I think we are overlooking the fact that sexual abuse of children, and rape of adult women (especially the poor and minorities), was commonplace and unreported for hundreds(thousands?)of years. I don't mean in the church. I mean in every institution, religious and secular.

Until the women's rights movement rape was generally unreported. Same for child sexual abuse. This only *started* to turn around late in the 20th century.

Think about it. What recourse did an abused American child have, even in the 1950s and early 1960s, if they were abused by their priest (scoutmaster, doctor, teacher or coach). Unless the crimes were incredibly egregious the perpetrator remained in power possibly to even punish the whistle blower.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. Yes -- understand and agree --
In fact, I was hoping to post something from a new book I'm reading -- Sexism in America --

Alive, Well, and RUINING OUR FUTURE --

which generally repeats some of the more current history -- as related by Betty Friedan, etal --

but also shows how seriously the advances have been taken backwards.

We need to be thinking much more seriously about patriarchy and its crimes -- including those

of organized patriarchal religion.

These recent reports have reminded me of Father James Port who went on and on being transferred

in the American Church. As a priest of the parish, he was tongue kissing young third grade

girls in view of nuns. Evidently, the nuns were so shocked, or frightened of sexuality, or

authority that they weren't reporting it. If they did report it, it went nowhere.

Porter abused hundreds of children -- including a young boy in a hospital who had just had

back surgery and was in a cast!! And even then the church didn't get rid of him. It took

a huge scandal to drive him out. And, then he went on to get married and abuse his own

children and his baby sitter!!

And, these are "modern" times???

:crazy:


:)
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Oh, I understand, abuses continue.
I had nuns for teachers for many years. For the most part they appeared to be overly subservient to the patriarchy you speak of. Thanks.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
60. Just want to thank you for the info you provided . . .
I didn't properly do that in my post, I noticed --

I think we are overlooking the fact that sexual abuse of children, and rape of adult women (especially the poor and minorities), was commonplace and unreported for hundreds(thousands?)of years. I don't mean in the church. I mean in every institution, religious and secular.

Until the women's rights movement rape was generally unreported. Same for child sexual abuse. This only *started* to turn around late in the 20th century.

Think about it. What recourse did an abused American child have, even in the 1950s and early 1960s, if they were abused by their priest (scoutmaster, doctor, teacher or coach). Unless the crimes were incredibly egregious the perpetrator remained in power possibly to even punish the whistle blower.


And we've also had confirmed that rape is a TOOL of war ---

and certainly in the continuing patriarchal war on women!

:)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
36. Would you believe what my PBS TV stations are running right now . . .?
Edited on Sun Apr-04-10 08:09 PM by defendandprotect
Pope John II - A Saint For Our Times

The life and papacy of the late pontiff, from

his baptism in Poland to his death in 2005,

through the process of fast tracking his beatification.

That's Channel 21 - WLIW 21


AND . . .

on Channel 23 -- PBS STATION NJN --


Vatican City & the Papacy with Burt Wolf




!!!


Is this a joke?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
49. Some awful things happened to PBS during the Bush years. I wonder if they'll ever be reversed?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. One of my PBS stations regularly runs "Bonanza" repeats!!
If any public money is still going to PBS, we should demand a refund!!

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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-04-10 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
42. The awesome in that story is almost palpable.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
51. Vast majority of priests claim they never knew of any cases of abuse.
My wife is Catholic and I had a short discussion with a priest at her parish who is in his seventies. I asked him why had so many priests who claim they would never tolerate abuse of children have been totally unaware of the extent of the problem. He had previously stated how shocked he was when the scandal became public. These people have to be in state of total denial or absolutely brain dead.

What in the hell did they think was happening when they saw Father Goody-Two-Shoes being sent off to a center for rehabilitation? They never suspected Father My-Shit-Doesn't-Stink when his constant companions were young teenage boys? There are cases in which the kids were abuse in the rectories while other priests were present. There were cases in which the nuns complained that Father was taking kids out of class for the day and they suspected sexual abuse. What did they think was happening behind those closed doors? I wasn't a member of the church and I was made aware by close friend of my wife's brother of the purpose of the centers in St. Louis and New Mexico where priests were being treaded for immoral sexual behavior and alcoholism. He was the head of the local Knights of Columbus and he told me they would just disappear for several months and reappear as if nothing had happened and if questioned they were told Father was overworked and needed a rest. I asked him if he knew what was going on since he part of the inner circle and why hadn't he reacted and he said that when he was advised of certain abuses that he had been sworn to secrecy.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Remember reading a case of a young boy being abused in a rectory...in priest's apartment . . .
Boy was struggling and another priest walked in on them --

He didn't report it because he wasn't sure what was going on!!!

Unbelievable!!


I'm also a recovering Catholic -- never abused by anyone, fortunately --

except a 300 pound nun who could scare the hell out of you -- !!



:)
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Marie-Therese Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
66. Re: Easter Bootee Protest at Pro-Cathedral, Dublin by Survivors of Institutional Abuse.
I was one of the protesters who silently, but in a seething manner, step-toed up the aisle of the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin. I did it by proxy for other survivors of institutional abuse as well as for myself - to express deep remorse at the decrepit lives we endured as children in our respective institutions. Notwithstanding too, to subliminally and vehemently highlight to religious believers and its leader, the extraordinary horrendous physical, emotional, mental and sexual scars with which children invariably received on their bodies and minds by those managing the harsh penitentiary criminal industrial schools. The trauma received in childhood in these institutions knows no bounds. It inevitably left gargantuan psychological fallout on our psyches - the like of which was so agonizingly and angrily expressed by us and mirrored back to the religious at the Easter mass. You see, shackled brains know no rest. The pain had to be bounced back to its rightful source.

The buck has to stop somewhere and why not at the seat of the religious Irish leader. After all, the religious were our guardians and carers in the past and are still in so much denial about the systemic abuse which thousands of children experienced at the hands of some of their predecessors'.

After baptism in this city-centre church, as a wee baby, I went straight to a Victorian style Regina Ceoli mother and baby unit in nearby Nth Brunswick St. I remained in that Legion of Mary quasi-religious-run poverty-stricken establishment until I was almost five years old.

Subsequently, I was incarcerated by Dublin's judiciary system into the now notorious Goldenbridge industrial school at Inchicore, until I reached the age of 16 years. The following link will give viewers of democraticunderground.com a wee foretaste of what daily life was like in that Dickensian style, ex-women's refuge prison. It was a diabolical hell-hole with a hundred haunted windows.

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=227

Penultimately, in all likelihood, the last time I would have ventured in a bootee-laden capacity up the archdiocese altar aisle at Marlborough St, would have been during my baptism of so many moons ago. Most likely too I would have been wearing wee bootees of a similar nature to the ones which we laid religiously at the transubstantiation bishop filled altar -- albeit, only on my wee feet as opposed to having them recently cradled in my weary middle-aged scarred hands. There is an uncanny resonance for me personally – bootee-wise, in this whole Easter mass protest scenario?! Retracing ones bootee tracks can be a very cathartic and enlightening experience.

The protest hopefully spoke volumes, despite its low turnout by survivors!

To conclude on a dour but realistic note - the young man who cried "Shame" lost his young mother of only 27 years old - to suicide. She, like me, was a product from a very early age of the industrial school system. So the Pharisees who were seated in the front pews - thumping their cra's, and licking the altar-rails, should think twice before they pass judgement on victims-survivors of institutional abuse. "Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me. "
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