Utah, Arizona law officers descend upon polygamous community

[Joanne98]

Source: Salt Lake Tribune


Utah and Arizona law enforcement officers reportedly descended on government buildings in a polygamous community that straddles the two states' border Tuesday morning.

Residents told The Salt Lake Tribune that an unspecified number of officers were at the Colorado City Fire Department and at the Hildale Town offices. The twin towns are home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, which has been under intense government scrutiny since 2002.

A spokesman for the Mohave County Sheriff's Office confirmed that there were "a few" officers in the community "conducting some type of business."

Molly Edwards, spokeswoman for the Arizona Attorney General's Office, said that she could not comment because the state was involved in an "ongoing investigation."



Read more: http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_14829144

[get the red out]

1. We will hear from their supporters soon

I am sure FLDS will have many supporters chime in for them soon. I don't dare say anything negative about this group, they are to be loved and honored, or so I have found on several liberal web sites I frequent.

We really just need to focus on the Catholic Church, at least we are allowed to give them a good going over for child rape.

[Hello_Kitty]

2. Criticism of any church or church leaders is an attack on religious people

That's what I was told on DU yesterday.

[NinetySix]

3. OK, here goes: I support polygamy.

At least in principle. What two loving adult people do, or three or four or eighteen, with their own lives is great with me, so long as they're happy and it doesn't impede or negatively impact anyone else's lives, liberty, or happiness.

What those religious polygamists do out in the Western states, however, is to deny their young daughters proper education, indoctrinate them with extreme religious dogma that denies their equal standing as human beings, and then compel them to marry much older men without their consent, and prior to their reaching the age of consent.

This, in my opinion, is tantamount to child rape. It can no more be justified than what the Catholic Church has allegedly been involved in, so give THEM a good going over as well.

[get the red out]

5. I am running a risk of being told I am a disgrace as a liberal

AGAIN....But I agree with your statement completely and love the way you put it. Absolutely correct in my opinion. Which means someone will think I am an evil-doer who would dare deny adult men their right to deny teenage females theirs. :evilgrin:

Human rights should trump religious rights, but then I'm just wretched, uninformed, and simply "emotional" rather than properly intellectual.

[No Elephants]

26. Plus, if you have nine wives and 25 kids, odds are welfare is supporting your "polygamy" to

one degree or another.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. +1. Thanks for properly focusing on where the evil part of this story actually is. -nt

[CanonRay]

46. + 100

[smalll]

47. I oppose it.

Women will never want, or very rarely want, more than one husband at the same time. Unfortunately, many men will want more than one wife at a time. In most of human history, polygamy, NOT monogamy was the norm. One man with many women equals many men with no women. The rich, the powerful (and the hot) will end up with many women, while every other man will end up with none. It is no accident that concepts like democracy and the equal worth of each human being emerged in the West, where monogamy took hold.

Today's young people live in a dating world of de-facto polygamy. You can see what this does to the relations between the sexes -- it poisons them. The "players" have no respect for all the women they are bedding, and the guys who never get anything resent/hate women as well. Women also have little respect for men in such a millieu - they resent the douchebags they sleep with, and are disdainful of men in general, as they realize that they just don't NEED many of them to satisfy their needs.

[StevieM]

9. I think the issue some have is whether it is right for the state to criminalize polygamy.

People should not be put in jail for the type of families that they have, nor should those families be torn apart by the government. Abuses by groups like the FLDS should be prosecuted. But most polygamists in this country are independent and don't live in the "twin cities."

[get the red out]

17. I know, I'm a horrible uneducated person

For daring to hope that human rights are more than just a convenient talking point to use against Republicans and their foreign wars. An uneducated, emotional, anti-intellectual person like me who feels bad for young girls unlucky enough to be raised in an isolated cult for the sole purpose of being sex slaves to old men and never knowing they have the right to say no, is probably just a freeper in disguise. Just another person that doesn't belong on DU. Someone who has fought the wrong battles and not ignored human rights when a pet group is the one in question. I am sorry.

[No Elephants]

28. What does where most polygamists live have to do with it?

[bowens43]

10. I think all religions are equally vile, that being said,

why should polygamy be illegal if it involves willing adults? Obviously the forced marriage of children to anyone should be illegal but polygamy itself should not be illegal.

[Hekate]

34. This is about the FLDS and its beyond-the-law enclaves in the US and now in Canada

There's a lot of open territory in both countries, and some groups from the US have moved north to escape our laws. Girls as young as twelve are married off, and then swapped around at the "prophet's" convenience.

This isn't about traditional US utopian communities, in which I include the hippie communes of my youth. Hippies were, iirc, all consenting young adults, and if they claimed they were married to multiple people a la Heinlein's "nests" (I met some "water brothers" once, and even at that age I rolled my eyes) or engaged in polyamory, what the hell business was it of mine? It's not my business now, either.

I'm monogamous by inclination, but I distinctly remember someone to whom I'm closely related marrying a guy in 1972 who was into experimentation -- and about the third time he tried to make their marriage into a menage a trois (always with another man) she realized that this probably didn't work all that well -- they were all supposed to be equals, but each time the other guy would fall in love with HER, and then there'd be jealousy issues. But jeez, at least she was 19 and at UC Berkeley when she married this bozo (excuse me, Brave New World man) and hadn't been raised in some compound a thousand miles from anywhere else and barely taught to read.

Hippies (to get back to my contemporaries) were idealistic and had all these notions about equality that spilled over into their sexual behavior. AND NOTE --> They were usually of similar ages, give or take 10 years. Old men weren't knocking up 12 y.o. girls and claiming God told them to, nor did only a few men claim all the women and girls and kick out the boys at puberty, which is what happens with FLDS.

FLDS needs to be extinct, due to its inbred child abuse and enslavement of females.

Hekate

Girls
http://www.childbrides.org/
http://bankingonheaven.com/
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/19678/polygamy-40

The "Lost Boys"
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/19/polygamys_lost_boys_expelled_from_only_life_they_knew/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger

[Blue_Tires]

37. excellent points

[superconnected]

24. Oh come on, it's just like the Duggars, only with 300 kids per family, 12 wives, and on welfare.

[bitchkitty]

35. Are you exaggerating, or just plain lying?

I haven't seen any love or honor shown to the FLDS on these threads, ever.

Maybe you're here more than me. Can you link to any such opinions, and I will stand corrected.

[Hekate]

38. Couple of years back when Jeffs et al were in the news with the YFZ Ranch raid...

... there were at least three DUers who were absolutely frantic to defend them at all costs and in every thread that arose. The defenders were so vehement that the mods may have sent them on vacation -- I don't remember how it ended. But I DO remember how vociferous these folks were in stating that what DUers and mainstream society were doing was religious persecution.

So no need to call another DUer a liar just because you missed all the excitement.

Hekate

[bitchkitty]

39. I didn't call anyone a liar.

I asked, "are you exaggerating or just plain lying."

edited for dyslexia

[Hekate]

44. Same difference, bk

[bitchkitty]

45. To you, maybe.

I don't fuck around - when I think someone is a liar, I don't ask them if they're lying - I tell them that they are.

I believe that the poster's statement was a huge exaggeration. I was here then too - and yes, there were a couple of idiots defending them. But it was far from the outpouring of love and support that the poster claimed.

[fishwax]

36. I certainly haven't seen many FLDS supporters on DU in the past

I've seen supporters of polygamy among consenting adults, but that's not really the same thing ...

[Tansy_Gold]

43. Yes, there were -- and still are -- a few.

They are, imho, primarily libertarians who dislike ANY government intrusion into what they consider private, personal lifestyles.

I don't engage them much. It's a waste of time. But they do see "freedom of religion" as very much the same kind of absolute as RKBA, or whatever the acronym is. If your religion involves the marrying of multiple underage girls against their wishes, it's okay. If your religion involves the ritual sacrifice of newborn kittens in supermarket parking lots, that's okay too. It's all okay as long as it's covered by religion.





Tansy Gold, who has very very very little use for religion of any kind

[struggle4progress]

4. ... Officers arrived in Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., around 7:30 a.m. MST and served

warrants on the Colorado City Fire Department and homes of the department's fire chief and town manager ... Neither Fire Chief Jake Barlow nor Town Manager David Darger were home at the time, said Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney. Parker does not represent the fire department but has represented other FLDS members in court matters. The Colorado City Fire Department has three stations, two in Colorado City and a third in Hildale. The warrants apparently authorized removal of computers and records and, while the investigation was launched by Arizona officials, were signed by judges in both states. "It appears to be some kind of financial crimes investigation," Parker said ...
Utah, Arizona law officers descend upon polygamous community
By Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Updated: 04/06/2010 11:37:37 AM MDT
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14829144

[kestrel91316]

7. ".....financial crimes investigation........" - gosh, imagine THAT.

[bettyellen]

13. they belive in bleeding the beast of govt- taking all the $$ w/ none of the work...IIRC....

the school has an airplane?

[Sivafae]

18. "some kind of financial crimes investigation..."

Well since the women are not technically married, they are completely eligible for gov't assistance. If a man has 5 wives but is only legally married to one of them, and the other 4 are receiving benefits from the gov't, then they are scamming the system. I think this is the part that pisses me off. Our gov't is funding this behaviour.

[closeupready]

22. Oh, okay, so this is more about investigating financial crimes.

If it was just about polygamy, I would repeat, it's a waste of taxpayer money to do this.

[No Elephants]

29. Maybe. Maybe not. These communities seem to have certain common characteristics.

It is not about freely consenting adults. It's always about men controlling the women and often about very young "brides," some of them fairly close relatives of the groom.

They are home schooled, but the home schooling of both genders tends to be lousy, leaving both boys and girls ill equipped for life outside the community or even a full life within the community. And, the more generations tha are brought up this way, the worse the home schooling is going to be.

Many boys, not quipped for life outside the community, will get thrown out before they become competition for the codgers. And young women do not seem truly free to leave, even to go to college. And then there is that welfare thing.

Besides, all Mormons, polygamous or not, tend to vote Republican and are anti-choice and anti-GLBT, if not also anti-African American. I'm guessing they're not much for inter-mingling with other minorities, either.

Bleeeccccchhhhh.

[kestrel91316]

6. Aw jeez, not THEM again..........

[mainer]

8. polygamy denies young men the opportunity to marry

When older men scoop up all the girls as wives, it leaves the younger generation of men without any chance to have families of their own. The only way such communities can maintain any stability is to exile those boys to the outside world. It's a cruel practice for young men and young women alike.

The only way there could be any fairness is if women had the freedom to have multiple husbands as well. But no, it's all about powerful older males.

[bowens43]

11. You're talking religion not poligamy.

Polygamy is a marriage in which a spouse of either sex may have more than one mate at the same time.

It's only religion that gives young girls to old men and forbids women from having multiple husbands.

[mainer]

15. Polyandry rarely occurs in cultures

Polygamy is almost always men with multiple wives. It may be considered religious or cultural practice, but the end result is still the expulsion -- or exclusion -- of young males. And privilege and power all going to older males.

If adults want to marry multiple spouses, and everyone's in agreement, that's up to them. But the practice of it in a closed community means that one gender is being shut out of marriage.

[No Elephants]

30. Disagree. This is something the older, more powerful men want and ascribe to religion.

Mormon polygamy may or may not originally have been to take care of numerous orphans and widows, but it has since become very dark.

Ascribing it to religion justifies everything. Elizabeth Smart's kidnappers were supposedly religious, too. That doesn't mean they kidnapped and raped her because of religion.

Maybe sickos and pervertts who yell "religion" are more sick and/or evil than they are religioous.

[bettyellen]

12. Im sure they'd let them marry some of the older wives when the old dudes get sick of them.....

they trade women like playing cards and you're worried about the younger ones getting a piece of the action?

[Tansy_Gold]

41. No, they do NOT let them marry the older wives

Please do just a tiny bit of research. The google and the wikipedia are your friends.

SOME, but very few, boys are groomed to become accepted members of the male community, but many to most are simply exiled to the outside world as unnecessary carriers of excess sperm. These are the "Lost Boys" who end up on the streets of Las Vegas and Phoenix, uneducated and unprepared for the world outside their FLDS enclave.

In addition to all the other problems these boys face is that they have been raised in an environment where women and girls are seen as objects, not human beings. This fundamental (pun intended) attitude makes reaching out to these boys very difficult, since most social workers and other who would provide services are women.

The abuse perpetrated by the FLDS is not reserved for the women and girls alone. Hundreds and hundreds of young men, too, are kicked out, told they are unworthy of their god's grace, treated as worse than dead by their families. The FLDS elite males are, pretty much, equal opportunity abusers.



Tansy Gold, who has worked with a couple of Colorado City escapees

[cbdo2007]

14. Any person should be able to marry any person. That's it.

It doesn't matter who the other person is or even if they're already married, it's none of my business or anyone elses business. Being married to 5 people simultaneously is no worse than getting married and divorced every few years to 5 different people.

[saracat]

16. NOT if they are children.

[cbdo2007]

20. Agreed.....Ok, any person 18+ should be able to marry any person 18+. THAT's it.

No more changes. :)

[LeFleur1]

42. How About Being Married to Five (or More) Children?

This isn't about consenting adults. It's about child abuse and the abuse of women. We talk of the horrific crimes toward women in the middle east but these crimes are given a pass? Why? Because they are happening in America? These demented old farts use brainwashing in the name of God to the detriment of women and children.
It's a very old custom.

This nonsense in God's name could have been stopped years ago if the LDS church wanted to see to it. It is a root that needs to die. What has Orin Hatch been doing? He certainly hasn't been crusading to stop this abuse, at least in a manner that counts. Harry Reid? I'm sure with their power they could have put a stop to these abusing old monsters in their states who have not only been abusing women and children, but have been stealing from the government for far too long. The men in these communities not only imprison women's minds and souls, but steal from our tax money for their perversions. And for the record, girls aren't the only ones being abused. Boys are often run out of the communes to give the old men a clear field. After all, if these kids got together for a time, and began to think clearly, they might find a way to leave these hell holes.

[saracat]

19. Thank You Terry Goddard. This is how a "real "law officer works!

First we nailed the leader Warren Jeffs on the polygamy/child rape and now the corrupt town on its bribes and financial skimming! Whoo Hoo!! I hope Joe Arapaoi and his idiotic illegal immigrant stings reads this and chokes. This is the real deal. Not his childish ego bloated crap. But something like this takes years and work, something that might take away from Joe's photo ops and money machine.

[closeupready]

21. Oh, jeez. What a waste of taxpayer money.

:eyes:

[saracat]

23. Really? Do you know how much these folks are stealing every year with having the state pay for their

numerous offspring while they fly around in private jets? Seriously? These are as worse and bad as the corporate ripoffs.We might actually be able to balance our budget on their fraud alone. It is well worth the effort to nail them. They are an illicet faux corporation marquerading as a religion (and BTW, for the record, I don't think ANY religion should be tax exempt) but these folks also game the system in other ways as well. And they leave the support of their children to the state.They drive the boys out and literally abandon them. They are slime. As Terry Goddard is one of the best attorney General's in the nation and is to be applauded for taking this issue on. I hope he is our next Governor. We really need him.

[WolverineDG]

25. Can you back that up?

Because this has been looked into repeatedly & found to be false. And the state is conducting this raid to cover up the fact that several criminal cases are going south because the evidence isn't there, was illegally seized in Texas, or, (in a recent development) the star witness apparently not only lied on the stand but forged evidence.

It would be funny if the only financial misdealings they uncover are those committed by Bruce Wisan.

dg

[saracat]

33. Terry Goddard is very methodical and disciplined. He wouldn't be doing this unless he had the proof...

We will have to see what he nets. I am sure the evidence is there, particularly as he is running for Governor, he isn't going to make a huge misstep. That would be very unusual for him.

[LanternWaste]

27. When this happened at the YFZ Ranch in TX...

When this happened at the YFZ Ranch in TX, we had a dear DU'er inform us (through a quite selective reading of the legal definition of it) that TX Child Protective Services engaged in genocide. I wonder if the Dear DU'er will appear here and proclaim with the same righteous indignation that the state is trying to destroy people of faith again...

[Hekate]

31. Probably. It was a pretty nauseating exchange of views, as I recall. nt

[Hekate]

32. 90 y.o. Rulon Jeffs posing with his 2 new brides. How old do they look?

How very special. "Former FLDS Prophet Rulon Jeffs at the age of 90 posing with 2 of his new brides, sisters Edna and Mary."





http://www.childbrides.org/

>> We strive to help victims overcome the physical, sexual, mental, emotional, spiritual and educational abuses that too often occur while living in a polygamous environment.
>
>> We are not activists against polygamy. Although polygamy is illegal, our purpose is not to eliminate it, but to help its victims. We are advocates for victims of abuse within polygamy, especially displaced youth, "placement marriage" and underage "child bride" marriages.
>
>> We will help anyone who desires to leave the environment of polygamy including underage brides, women wanting to leave, and young men (the "Lost Boys") who are often cast away like unwanted pets.
>
>> The HOPE Organization directly provides and/or assists in obtaining such basic necessities as food, clothing, housing, household furnishings, education, employment, transportation, legal assistance, emotional and financial support, mentoring and counseling. We also refer to other social service providers for additional resources.
>
>> Please read some of the true stories of the brave men, women and children who have escaped the abusive conditions prevalent in the secretive "closed" polygamous communities of southern Utah and the Arizona Strip. Some have been forced out, some have been evicted out and some have found the courage to run away. >>




Warren Jeffs with 12 year old bride

"How can you say these are consenting adults when they have no education, no exposure to the outside world, and polygamy is the only life these women have ever known?" Carolyn Jessup
http://bankingonheaven.com/