Breaking: Polish Plane with Polish Prez crashes in Russia, 87 dead, developing

[Better Today]

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Eighty-seven people died when a plane flying from Warsaw crashed near its intended destination in the Russian city of Smolensk, Itar-Tass news agency reported on Saturday, citing the Russian Emergencies Ministry.


A Polish government official told Reuters the plane was carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski.

(Reporting by Robin Paxton)

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6390K120100410

---

More bad news from around that part of the world.

[elleng]

1. Bad news indeed.

Reminds me of too many things, and at the moment I'm not exactly objective. 'There are no accidents,' Economic Hit Man, and watching murder mystery. International implications in mystery I'm watching, Masterpiece.

[Endwar]

6. You never will know...

I'll agree to that.. who really knows what happened?

[FrenchieCat]

2. Oh my!

He's the one immediately on the left side of Germany's Angela Merkel. Tragic!

[Bluenorthwest]

46. That is her left, Obama is on Merkle's right

[HuckleB]

66. Technically.

He is to the left of Merkle in the photo, but he is to her right, while Obama is to the right of Merkle, but to her left.

[jannyk]

3. His wife was on board too

latest from BBC

"A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed near a Russian airport, officials say.

Russian media reported that 87 people were killed in the crash near Smolensk, and a regional governor was quoted as saying there were no survivors.

Polish officials said Mr Kaczynski was on board along with his wife Maria and several senior government figures."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8612825.stm

"No Survivors" :(

[ChicagoSuz219]

4. OMG! How awful! n/t

[VanW]

5. This is crazy.

Very, very bad.

[JI7]

7. any news about cause of crash ?

[Ghost Dog]

14. RT: "in thick fog, ... crashed 300-400 meters off the landing path"

The Polish presidential aircraft, a Tupolev-154, was attempting to land at Severny airport in Smolensk in thick fog, a Russian investigative committee reports. It crashed 300-400 meters off the landing path, Itar-Tass news agency reports, citing sources in Russia’s Emergencies Ministry.

/... http://rt.com/Top_News/2010-04-10/plane-crash-smolensk-region.html

[dipsydoodle]

54. The pilot had already been instructed to divert to Minsk.

due to the fog. He ignored the instruction. :shrug:

A military transporter due to land 15 minutes earlier also received that instruction and landed safely at Minsk.

[Ghost Dog]

75. "President Kaczinski liked to intervene in the actions of the commanders in his plane"

10 April 2010 | 21:42 | FOCUS News Agency Moscow. According to the initial information the pilots of the Tu-154 had tried to land three times at Severnii airport by the town of Smolensk despite the dense fog and the warnings of the dispatchers.

There are three versions for the crash so far – bad meteorological conditions, technical failure and pilots error, Russian NTV television reported.

Today’s flight of the Polish President Lech Kaczinski was passing normally but the dispatchers in Belarus started warning about a dense fog near Smolensk. The pilots were offered to land at spare airports but they decided to land here, despite the instructions of Russian dispatchers.

Journalists in Polish media had reported several times President Kaczinski liked to intervene in the actions of the commanders in his plane. Thus one of the pilots was dismissed and was almost arrested after he refused to fulfill an order of his President over security reasons.

/.. http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n216142

[VanW]

8. BBC

Smolensk regional governor Sergei Antufiev told Russian TV that no-one had survived.

"As it was preparing for landing, the Polish president's aircraft did not make it to the landing strip," he said.

"According to preliminary reports, it got caught up in the tops of trees, fell to the ground and broke up into pieces. There are no survivors in that crash.

"We are clarifying how many people there were in the delegation. According to preliminary reports, 85 members of the delegation and the crew."

The Polish Foreign Ministry said the president and his wife were aboard the plane.

Central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek was also said to have been on board.


"Polish officials said Mr Kaczynski was on board along with his wife Maria and several senior government figures.
They were in Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviets killed thousands of Poles."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8612825.stm


are you fucking kidding me

[VanW]

9. Wikipedia says the plane was a Polish AF jet

"Tupolev Tu-154 from the 36th Special Aviation Regiment"

[SpartanDem]

11. Pic of the plane

[FarCenter]

50. Very similar to the 747, but higher power to weight ratio, bigger landing gear

Able to operate from unpaved runways, but it has poorer fuel economy.

[muriel_volestrangler]

77. I think you meant '727' (nt)

[elleng]

10. Mr. Kaczynski

was on board along with his wife Maria and several senior government figures.

They were in Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviets killed thousands of Poles.

As it was preparing for landing, the Polish president's aircraft did not make it to the landing strip," he said.

"According to preliminary reports, it got caught up in the tops of trees, fell to the ground and broke up into pieces. There are no survivors in that crash.

"We are clarifying how many people there were in the delegation. According to preliminary reports, 85 members of the delegation and the crew."

[VanW]

12. Al Jazeera:

Polish officials said on Saturday that Kaczynski was supposed to be on board the flight with his wife, as well as Slawomir Skrzypek, the head of Poland's central bank, Andrzej Kremer, the deputy foreign minister and the army chief of staff.

Rafal Kiepuszewski, a journalist monitoring the situation in Poland, said the news came as a shock to the Polish people.

"The fact that much of the Polish political establishment appears to have been wiped out on this single flight has really come as a profound shock to the Polish nation," he said.

http://english.aljazeera.net//news/europe/2010/04/20104107407467926.html

[murielm99]

13. This is terrible for them.

Maybe there should never be that many members of the political establishment on one flight. Apart from the tragedy and human loss, this is going to create a crisis for their government.

[VanW]

15. It's a virtual coup d'etat

The head of state- dead.

The head of the Central Bank- dead.

The army chief of staff- dead.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. The Polish Prime Minister is more powerful than their President

So this isn't as bad, constitutionally, as you're saying. Personally, it's still a tragedy for all those concerned, of course.

The politics of Poland take place in the framework of a parliamentary representative democratic republic, whereby the Prime Minister is the head of government and of a multi-party system. Executive power is exercised by the government. Legislative power is vested in both the government and the two chambers of parliament, the Sejm and the Senate. The Judiciary is independent of the executive and the legislature.

Executive power is exercised by the government, which consists of a council of ministers led by the Prime Minister. Its members are typically chosen from a majority coalition in the lower house of parliament (the Sejm), although exceptions to this rule are not uncommon. The government is formally announced by the president, and must pass a motion of confidence in the Sejm within two weeks.

Legislative power is vested in both the government and the two chambers of parliament, Sejm and Senate. Members of parliament are elected by proportional representation, with the proviso that non-ethnic-minority parties must gain at least 5% of the national vote to enter the lower house. Currently four parties are represented. Parliamentary elections occur at least every four years.

The president, as the head of state, has the power to veto legislation passed by parliament, but otherwise has a mostly representative role. Presidential elections occur every 5 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Poland

[VanW]

19. Thanks...

I was confusing head of state with head of govt.

Still pretty shocking.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[willing dwarf]

38. The Head of the Central Bank

Knowing the way the president/prime minister thing makes the president more of a public outreach figure, my thoughts turn to the head of the Central Bank. Knowing how many countries have been suffering as a result of the derivatives con game, I can't help wondering if there was someone wanting to pay back the head of the Central Bank. Completely talking out of my hat here, but still, I can't help wondering.

A terrible tragedy at the sight of an earlier horror though. I wonder how this feels to the people of Poland?

[Betty Karlson]

39. As for the first questions you raise:

No, it's not about the bank. Poland was the only EU land to have economic growth last year (1.7%, I believe).

The reason of the crash is in the plane. Quote from Huffington Post:

"The presidential Tu-154 was at least 20 years old. Polish officials have long discussed replacing the planes that carry the country's leaders but said they lacked the funds. According to the Aviation Safety Network, there have been 66 crashes involving Tu-154s, including six in the past five years. The Russian carrier Aeroflot recently withdrew its Tu-154 fleet from service."

[willing dwarf]

43. Thank you

There have been so many people of power brought down in planes, it's gotten to seem like one of the hidden means of effecting "regime change" by all sorts of hidden forces. But in this case, perhaps old Soviet equipment was the problem. I guess my tendency to look for the secret sinister forces is the result of witnessing more than 30 years of political theater. The plot lines become too familiar. But Chance and Unfortunate Calamity are actors who continue to surprise us with their unanticipated moments in the spotlight.

[troubledamerican]

82. Apr 9: Gov't weakens currency -- Apr 10: Gov't decapitated. (WSJ)

http://blogs.wsj.com/new-europe/2010/04/09/polish-central-bank-pulls-trigger-to-weaken-zloty/

[Liberal_in_LA]

57. OMG. Why was the entire polish power structure on ONE PLANE!

[Better Today]

59. They were going to a memorial for Polish soldiers in Russia.

[Liberal_in_LA]

63. I doubt if the US would put Obama, Biden and all the secs on one plane

[Better Today]

64. So what? They are not the US.

[Liberal_in_LA]

68. Calm down. Just joining the chat about a recent event.

[Better Today]

69. Sorry, I'm just growing tired and testy about this concept that we're

so great right about now. So I am over-reacting to anything that resembles, "we're smarter than they are" comments. There are pros and cons to every decision, ours solves this potential problem. One the other hand, ours costs a friggin' fortune!

[Posteritatis]

65. The entire Polish power structure wasn't on one plane. (nt)

[VanW]

17. AJE is broadcasting from the Katyn massacre memorial

It's full of Russian and Polish officials. People are crying and in shock.

This is freakish.

[lamp_shade]

18. Oh my heart.

[saracat]

21. Apparently his leading issue was anti-gay rights. I do not agree with his

morality but I am sorry for Poland that this tragedy took so many lives including that of their President and First lady. RIP and I hope that Poland will be able to restore its government peacefully.

Polish President's Homophobia Enrages the Irish

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-3768.html/

[pampango]

31. BBC: "He has opposed rapid free-market reforms and favoured retaining social welfare programmes."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612825.stm

"Mr Kaczynski has been a controversial figure in Polish politics, advocating a right-wing Catholic agenda."

His "right-wing Catholic agenda" seemed to have some very bad (homophobia) and some good ("opposed rapid free-market reforms and favoured retaining social welfare programmes").

[saracat]

67. I am sorry for the loss of life but he was a bigot.

[boppers]

74. A Maryja candidate?

Their "Fox news" is so bad the Vatican's gotten angry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. Lots of innocents died in that crash.

Why couldn't it be a tiny Cessna with only him and his equally wingnutty brother?

[Drunken Irishman]

22. 132 dead now.

Gah. How horrible. I could not imagine the leader of a country going this way.

[Ghost Dog]

40. It has happened many times,

and not always accidentally, as would appear to be the case here.

[Wetzelbill]

23. Update from MSNBC: Polish president among 132 dead in jet crash

Polish president among 132 dead in jet crash
Plane goes down in Russia en route to commemoration of Stalin’s victims

updated 6 minutes ago
SMOLENSK, Russia - Polish President Lech Kaczynski was killed when a plane carrying 132 people crashed in thick fog on its approach to a Russian airport on Saturday, killing everyone on board, officials said.

The governor of the Smolensk region, where the crash took place about 11 a.m. (3 a.m. ET), said no one survived.

"The Polish presidential plane did not make it to the runway while landing. Tentative findings indicate that it hit the treetops and fell apart," Sergei Anufriev said on state news channel Rossiya-24. "Nobody has survived the disaster.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36352097/ns/world_news-europe

[VanW]

24. Partial list of dead:

According to the flight manifest onboard were among others:

Lech Kaczyński, the President of Poland
Maria Kaczyńska, the first lady
Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last President of the Polish government-in-exile
Jerzy Szmajdziński, Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
Władysław Stasiak, Chief of the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
Aleksander Szczygło, head of the National Security Bureau
Paweł Wypych, Secretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
Mariusz Handzlik, Undersecretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
Andrzej Kremer, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
General Franciszek Gągor, Chief of the Polish Army General Staff
Andrzej Przewoźnik, Secretary-General of the Council for the Defence of the Memory of Struggle and Suffering
Grzegorz Dolniak, member of the Sejm
Przemysław Gosiewski, member of the Sejm
Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka, member of the Sejm
Zbigniew Wassermann, member of the Sejm
Leszek Deptuła, member of the Sejm
Grażyna Gęsicka, member of the Sejm
Sebastian Karpiniuk, member of the Sejm
Aleksandra Natalli-Świat, member of the Sejm
Arkadiusz Rybicki, member of the Sejm
Jolanta Szymanek-Deresz, member of the Sejm
Wiesław Woda, member of the Sejm
Edward Wojtas, member of the Sejm
Janina Fetlińska, member of the Senat
Stanisław Zając, member of the Senat
Janusz Kochanowski, Polish Ombudsman
Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the National Bank of Poland
Janusz Kurtyka, Historian and president of the Institute of National Remembrance
Tadeusz Płoski, Bishop of the Military Ordinariate of the Polish Army
Piotr Nurowski, President of the Polish Olympic Committee
Ryszard Rumianek – Rector of the Cardinal Stefan Wyszyński University in Warsaw


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash

[Drunken Irishman]

25. Jesus Christ. That's like wiping out most of their government.

Could you imagine something similar here? How horrible! :(

[VanW]

26. Lech Walesa: This is the second time our country's elite killed in Katyn.

Saw that on Twitter, no link.


The symbolism is really heavy.

[Lars77]

28. And Putin is personally heading the investigation..

This smells bad.

[Betty Karlson]

29. Not that bad.

The liberal Prime-minister, Donald Tusk, is still alive and well. And he is the most powerfull man in Poland. Most of the cabinet is equally alive and well.

I feel aspecially bad for the twin brother of the president.

[Art_from_Ark]

80. Vladimir Putin, former member of the KGB

taking charge of the investigation. That doesn't really instill a whole lot of confidence that the finding will be impartial and unbiased.

[Betty Karlson]

83. He takes personal charge because he is prime-minister

Russia was mending fences with Poland, and such an incident could not be delegated to low-ranking officers, even if they lack some nasty KGB past.

[Art_from_Ark]

86. I don't buy it

Certainly Russia has its own version of the Federal Aviation Administration which can conduct an independent investigation. Or maybe there could be a joint Polish-Russian investigation that is out of politicians' hands. I don't see how Putin putting himself, as a former KGB agent (and a member of a despised organization in Soviet bloc-era Poland and someone with probably no background in aviation) in charge of the investigation is really going to alleviate concerns in Poland of a cover-up.

[davepc]

27. There's a reason why the President and VP never travel in the same vehicle.

[aquart]

33. Yes. This is way worse than just losing a figurehead.

This is a national trauma. And it very well may cause major changes in the goals and aims of the government as vacancies are filled...The human toll is stunning for them, but the toll on losing their leaders? That may end up worse than the grief.

And let's every nation make VERY sure it can't happen to us.

[dipsydoodle]

35. I something similar had happened "here"

you'd probably have screams of terrorist act and been ready to invade yet another country by next week.

[soleft]

47. Let's hope it doesn't inspire anyone

[rainbow4321]

48. I imagine a huge overhaul in their government travel policy

After this, I can see them making the people in these positions having to travel separately if they are headed to the same destination.

[underpants]

32. Wow that is a list of most of their power structure (as posted above)

Very sad

[rpannier]

30. Very Sad

It's always a tragedy when things like this happens

[James48]

34. My deepest sympathies to the people of Poland. n/t

[msanthrope]

36. Pilot told to divert to Moscow, tried to land 4 times at closed Smolensk airport.

SNIP

The pilot was told Smolensk airport was closed because of thick fog, according to the news agency Interfax. He was offered a choice of landing instead in either Moscow or Minsk, the capital of Belarus. But he decided to continue with the original flight plan and land at Smolensk.

The pilot made three unsuccessful attempts to land before the crash. On the fourth try and plane fell apart, Interfax said, citing officials at Smolensk's interior ministry.

Russia's foreign ministry confirmed the cause of the air catastrophe was bad weather. "According to provisional information the crash happened because the plane failed to land at the military airport near Smolensk in conditions of severe fog,' one official said.



SNIP--more at link


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/10/poland-president-lech-kaczynski-killed

[Ghost Dog]

41. Surely it would have been the President who instructed the Pilot

to take this decision.

[Blue_Tires]

79. holy damn...So no one got the idea after the THIRD aborted landing attempt?

[MajorChode]

84. Unfortunately it's a common scenario

They try the first approach and fail to see the runway environment so they can land, so they go around and try it again, this time a little lower. After each missed approach they try again, just a little lower. Eventually they either actually do manage to land, or they grab some trees and auger in.

[Hawkowl]

85. Pilot error

As a professional pilot, there is no way in hell I'd try FOUR effin times to get into an airport in bad weather! Two attempts at the very most is all I'd ever try. You have to draw the line somewhere, or else this is what happens. Approach after approach until you crash and burn.

[Lerkfish]

37. stating the obvious: they should not have all been on the same flight.

for this very reason.

very, very sad.

[David__77]

42. I hope that progressives succeed them.

Sorry, I feel little sympathy for fascists.

[Betty Karlson]

44. The interim prez is a liberal. N/T

[Gman]

45. He and his twin brother were/are right wing fanatic nuts

[ck4829]

49. You beat right wing fanatic nuts at elections, like how his brother was beaten

The guy's death won't really help anyone.

A lot of non-political people were killed too.

[Bad Thoughts]

55. Yes, they were

I don't want to stomp on a man's grave, especially given the crisis that will unfurl in Poland, but his dealings with Geremek, obsession over World War Two and his suppression of information on Polish collaborators barely scratch the surface of his extreme nationalism.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

60. Don't forget the persecution of gays. -nt

[FarCenter]

51. Lech Kaczynski -- POLITICAL ROLE:

-- In Poland's first free presidential elections in 1990, twins Lech and Jaroslaw Kaczynski were the driving force behind Solidarity hero Lech Walesa's victory over another leading dissident, Tadeusz Mazowiecki.

-- Lech Kaczynski was head of the national security office under Walesa. He fell out with him after resisting calls for Poland to abandon "shock therapy" economic reform. Kaczynski later became justice minister in the government of Jerzy Buzek.

-- Kaczynski was elected president in 2005. The win followed a general election victory by the Law and Justice party led by his identical twin Jaroslaw, and made the Kaczynski duo the undisputed first family in the new European Union member state.

-- Lech Kaczynski named his brother prime minister in July 2006.

-- In 2007, Donald Tusk became prime minister after leading his centrist Civic Platform to victory in parliamentary elections. Tusk pursued pro-market economic policies and repaired relations with Germany and Russia, badly strained under the previous administration of the president's brother.

-- Kaczynski was a critic of the economically liberal government and often vetoed its bills, including 2008 plans to encourage hospitals to operate on a commercial basis -- a plan the president said amounted to privatisation. He vetoed a 2009 bill that aimed to shake up public media.

-- President Kaczynski criticised the government in January 2010 for prolonging gas negotiations with Moscow and deepening Poland's already heavy reliance on Russian gas.


http://www.france24.com/en/20100410-profile-lech-kaczynski-poland-president-life-political-career

[FarCenter]

52. Law and Justice Party

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_Justice

<SNIP>
Platform

In comparison with the other major party with Solidarity roots, Civic Platform, PiS projects a more patriotic, social and solidary image overall. However the policies of both parties take inspiration from the Catholic social teaching.

<SNIP>

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dover]

58. Kaczynski Often a Source of Tension Within E.U.

NYT

Lech Kaczynski, the president of Poland, died Saturday after his plane crashed on route to Katyn, in western Russia, where he was due to commemorate the murder 70 years ago of thousands of Polish officers, according to the Polish foreign ministry. He was 60 years old.

Mr. Kaczynski was elected president in 2005 as his twin brother, Jaroslaw, was swept into power as leader of the nationalist-conservative Law and Justice government. This unique constellation of power, led by identical twins, often put Poland on a collision course with its European Union partners and Russia.

As soon as he took office in the presidential headquarters in the center of Warsaw, Mr. Kaczynski forged very close relations with Ukraine and Georgia, determined to bring them closer to NATO and eventually have them admitted to the American-led military organization.

But his staunch defense of these two countries often upset leading members of the E.U., especially Germany, which was concerned that an expanded NATO would threaten Russia, or lead to new East-West tensions.>>>


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/world/europe/11kaczynski.html?ref=world

[Odin2005]

61. OMG! I think Kaczynski was a nasty bigot, but that is a horrible way to go.

:-(

[IndianaGreen]

62. God's will, no doubt!

Who are we to question His will?

:sarcasm:

[Beacool]

70. Terrible news.

My condolences to Poland and the families of those who perished.

May they rest in peace.

:-(

[Better Today]

71. Wow, I guess I have to admit to having been Polan-stupid, I've learned so much today.

I had no idea, we really are quite globally illiterate aren't we. Thank you all for a lively discussion, it has been very interesting.

[sonias]

72. My heart and prayers go out to the people of Poland

May they keep steady in this time of crisis. I hope the whole world steps up to help them keep stability until they can form a new government.

:grouphug: to the people of Poland.

[TeaBagsAreForCups]

73. Schadenfreude! ...

... anti-gay bigot and vile homophobe.

A shame that the other 95 died, but the "lawd" does, indeed, work in mysterious ways, doesn't she?
________________________________________
"I have written much about Kaczynski over the past few years, as well as his twin brother Jaroslaw, the former Prime Minister who is suspected to be gay. President Kaczynski was virulently anti-gay.

In 2008, he broadcast, without permission, a wedding video of American couple Brendan Fay and Tom Moulton on Poland's national television to illustrate a presidential address he was giving warning the nation that supporting the Lisbon Treaty, which is linked to the EU Charter of Human Rights, would mean that same-sex marriage could come to Poland.

In 2007, on a state visit to Ireland, Kaczynski came under fire for remarks he made that gays would destroy the human race. Said the President on his decision to ban a Gay Pride parade: "If that kind of approach to sexual life were to be promoted on a grand scale, the human race would disappear. Imagine what grand changes would occur in mores if the traditional links between men and women were set aside."

It was a sentiment he had expressed before, as the Mayor of Warsaw."

http://www.towleroad.com/2010/04/polish-president-first-lady-94-others-perish-in-plane-crash.html

[Mrdie]

76. Anna Walentynowicz is dead too.

"Her firing in August 1980 was the event that led to the strike in the Gdansk Shipyard and and the creation of Solidarity."

[caseymoz]

78. My condolences to the people of Poland, and their government.

Very sad. I don't think I've ever heard of this many government officials being killed in an accident.

[whatacountry09]

81. plane crash WITH debris???

I was good all day today, but now it's tomorrow. Sympathy to the family, friends & people of Poland for their loss, BUT-DID I SEE PLANE WRECKAGE? FROM A CRASH? Go figure. I guess it must be because it's a small plane. The one that crashed in PA on 9/11 was much bigger-so that MUST be the reason for no debris during that ...tragedy. Yeah that makes perfect sense; I get it.