U.S. Army charges six soldiers for cruelty in Iraq

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LYO058486.htm

BAGHDAD, March 20 (Reuters) - The U.S. military on Saturday charged six soldiers with offences including cruelty, mistreatment and assault following a criminal investigation into allegations of prisoner abuse at a jail in Iraq.

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, the deputy director of operations for the U.S. military in Iraq, said the soldiers, all from a military police battalion, had been suspended from duty pending further investigation ahead of any trial.

"As a result of the criminal investigation, six military personnel have been charged with criminal offences including conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another," he told reporters.

Kimmitt did not disclose the soldiers' names or ranks.

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[Flagg]

1. winning more hearts and minds all over the world

[tabasco]

2. I want to see more punishment than honorable discharges.

Time to make an example of some MPs. The last ones charged got off easy.

[DulceDecorum]

3. What punishment did Lt Calley

of My Lai get?

[Twenty3]

15. 3 and 1/2 yrs

house arrest at Ft Benning

[Valkyrie55]

18. Calley didn't get what he deserved

After deliberating for 79 hours and 57 minutes, the jury returned a verdict. They had found Calley guilty of premeditated murder of 22 of the villagers of My Lai. One juror claimed that they “had labored long and hard to find some way, some evidence, or some flaw in the testimony so we could find Lt. Calley innocent.” Before the jury reconvened to decide his punishment, Calley was allowed to address the jury and said, “Yesterday you stripped me of all my honor, please by your actions that you take here today, don’t strip future soldiers of their honor-I beg you.” The prosecution responded that Calley had stripped himself of his honor by murdering women and children. After seven hours the jury sentenced Calley to life of hard labor. In the end, he only served only days in Fort Leavenworth, before being transferred back to Fort Benning, where he was placed under house arrest. His sentence was repeatedly reduced. Finally, he was pardoned by President Nixon. He was paroled in November, 1974.

Calley is currently the manager at his father-in-law’s jewelery store.

[mobuto]

19. Calley got what he deserved

I think a young Navy Lieutenant put it best in answer to a question before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971 :

My feeling, Senator, on Lieutenant Calley is that what he did quite obviously is a horrible, horrible, horrible thing. And I have no bone to pick with the fact that he was prosecuted, but I think that in this question, you have to separate guilt from responsibility. And I think clearly the responsibility for what has happened there lies elsewhere.

I think it lies with the men who designed free-fire zones; I think it lies with the men who encouraged body counts; I think it lies in large part with this country, which allows a young child, before he reaches the age of 14, to see 12,000 violent deaths on television. Which glorifies the John Wayne syndrome. Which puts out fighting men comic books on the stands. Which allows us in training to do calisthenics on a four-count, on the fourth count of which we stand up and shout kill in unison. Which has posters in barracks in this country, with a crucified Vietnamese with blood on him, and underneath it it says "Kill the Gook."

And I think that clearly the responsibility for all of this is what has produced this horrible aberration.

Now I think that if you are going to try Lieutenant Calley, then you must, at the same time, if this country is going to demand respect for the law, you must at the same time try all those other people who have responsibility. And any aversion that we might have to the verdict as veterans is not to say that Calley should be freed, not to say that he's innocent, but to say that you can't just take him alone.

[Barrett808]

4. Inevitable result of counterinsurgency ops

Counterinsurgency wars are vicious and horrifyingly brutal. That's why they shouldn't be undertaken.

[mobuto]

5. Explain that to the people

of South Korea.

[Zhade]

9. Technically and legally, the Iraqis are the counter-insurgents.

The "Coalition" soldiers are the insurgents. Remember, the invasion and occupation of Iraq was and is illegal under international law and our own, as treaties are the highest law of the land here in Imperial America - or, at least, they used to be.

[Mari333]

6. SIGH

I know my stepson, hes an MP. He told me that quite a few kids in his unit , before they went, told him "hey man, we are gonna go kick some muslim ass".
My stepson was sickened by it, and I have a feeling a lot of these kids are angry stupid teenagers who were taught to minimalize the humanity of the people of Iraq, and are angry they are there, and take it out on the people there. Teenagers with guns. Reservists, etc.
I am sickened by it. These kids need to be sent to the brig and learn they cannot hurt others and they have been destroyed in so many ways now for all their lives, unless they turn their own lives around and face what they became as soldiers due to the Bu$h administration sending them over there with an attitude of cruelty and military dehumanization of an entire group of people.
God help us all.
edit to add: My stepson is an MP at Abu Ghuraib. I am disgusted and Im going to ask him who these guys were. God help us. God, I pray he isnt sucked into the anger and meanness as time goes by.

[Qanisqineq]

8. it's hard with all the things you hear

I hear about these things and married soldiers being with prostitutes, etc. I sometimes wonder if my husband got sucked into any of the hate, too. I think a lot of it does have to do with age. My husband is 32 and says most of the guys with these attitudes ("kick some muslim ass") are often the very young, teens and early twenties.

[saigon68]

10. They are mostly bullies and bums

The U. S. military like the Nazi SS, appeals to cowardly bullies, slow witted bums, and individuals with an anti social pathology by the seduction of smart uniforms, guns and medals.

Hitler and Himmler took bullies and made them into SS storm troopers capable of shooting Jewish children in the face and blowing their brains out on the ground.

Want to see how this works

Rent Oliver Stone's movie PLATOON. Read about My Lai.

THERE I'VE said it ALL </RANT>

[Qanisqineq]

11. EXCUSE ME???????

MY HUSBAND IS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE YOU ARE CALLING BULLIES.

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

12. I'm a veteran and

I don't meet Saigon68's characterization, many many soldiers don't. Doesn't mean he's wrong. There's soldiers who do. Assholes and lunatics are everywhere.

[saigon68]

13. Your husband I don't know

But the sadists who are beating up the prisoners are BUMS AND BULLIES.

And I don't know you can interpret my post as dissing your husband, but know one thing, lady, I spent over 8 years in the service and 2 combat tours and I know of what I talk about.

[saigon68]

14. While this guy was dying

Why were 6 Military Thugs and Hoodlums smashing the faces of a few Iraqi War-Prisoners, who were in MILITARY CUSTODY ?



Sue Sapir-Niederer, of Pennington, N.J., whose son, Seth Dvorin, a member of the 101st Airborne Division, died in Iraq (news - web sites) in February, marches in the anti-war protest in New York, Saturday, March 20, 2004. Thousands of people participated in the rally, which marked the first anniversary of the U.S.-led war in Iraq and called for the removal of American troops from the region. (AP Photo/Jennifer Szymaszek.

There is a book by Robinson Risner The Passing of the Night : My Seven Years as a Prisoner of the North Vietnamese

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345336771/qid=1079830237/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/104-4031243-3075901?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

To describe courage and bravery, strength and resilience, pride and professionalism, it only takes two words....Robinson Risner. In an ordeal that began in 1965 and lasted for a monumental seven and a half years, he was incarcerated in the Hanoi Hilton and Zoo prison compounds in North Vietnam after he was shot down.

Subjected to unspeakable tortures and barbaric conditions, Robinson Risner literally descended into a pit of hell from which he was eventually delivered out of by his relentless perseverance and his faith in God.

Why pray tell are our Soldiers behaving like North Vietnamese Prison Guards and Torturing the prisoners?

If the Military is going to Court martial these people---Trust Me---It is BAD.

[Mari333]

16. (((Tolania)))

Your husband and my stepson are not the bullies..they are good men, a good child, we know that. They were thrown into this bloodbath and my stepson wants out...hes a kid, he has no idea what hes doing, and now he knows its a stupid thing and not a video game...
No, some are bullies, some arent. I just pray my stepson doesnt become changed and bitter and mean, angry and cruel because of this. That truly terrifies me, I truly pray it doesnt change him into a monster , this occupation, he is young..his father raised him with a heart, I hope he still has it when he returns.
I cant wait til you tell me your husband comes home.
I cant wait til my stepson is home.
I cant wait til Bu$h is dragged out of the white house in chains for doing this to all of us.

[mobuto]

17. Its a shame

that such sentiments are held by people on the DU. The US military is not the Nazi SS by any stretch of the imagination. Not even close. The comparison is of extraordinarily poor taste.

Hitler and Himmler took bullies and made them into SS storm troopers capable of shooting Jewish children in the face and blowing their brains out on the ground.

The difference is that these six men are the exception and were uncovered during the course of a investigation by the US Army - and they're being prosecuted fully under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That's all the difference in the world. What the SS did was official policy - this is anything but. Get a life.

Rent Oliver Stone's movie PLATOON.

This is an argument?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leesa]

7. Irony or ironies...Us Army charges for cruelty! What a joke.

[UpInArms]

20. related article: TROOPS IN IRAQ: Accusations of abuse

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wopris213717143mar21,0,194433.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines

<snip>

But it's Abu Ghraib that al-Marsumi remembers most, in part because he had spent three years there, until shortly before the U.S.-led invasion, for deserting the Iraqi army.

Al-Marsumi allowed that for many Iraqis, the treatment in such prisons as Abu Ghraib was far grimmer under Hussein. "But for me," he said, "it was worse under the Americans."

[saigon68]

21. Concentration Camp

BAGHDAD, Iraq - It wasn't being handcuffed to an outdoor pole during five sun-scorched days and five frigid nights that bothered him most, Sadik Hamid al-Marsumi said. Or being beaten and forced to stay on his hands and knees for two hours while his guard used his back as a chess table.

Or having to transfer sewage with a tablespoon from a full barrel to an empty one.

What really got to the Baghdad construction worker was that the captors inflicting this punishment weren't minions of former leader Saddam Hussein. Rather, he said, they were U.S. soldiers.

Sounds like the North Vietanmese at the Hanoi Hilton.


Note ----"forced to stay on his hands and knees for two hours while his guard used his back as a chess table." ----While this was going on, I wonder what the NCOs, Supervisors and Officers were doing? Sleeping?


I know they weree tolerating it and institutionalising it, that is why Seventeen, (17), ---yes 17 of them are in trouble in total.

[Mari333]

24. I just sent this article to my stepson at Abu Ghuraib prison

and asked him to let me know what he sees..I asked him for the truth..I have not heard from him in 3 days, but I want him to tell me the truth and I told him to please be gentle, be kind, and be a good man.
This is insane.
This is insane.

[Judi Lynn]

22. New angle to this story announced today

Reports of alleged abuse of detainees by U.S. soldiers came from within the military, U.S. official says
By Bassem Mroue, Associated Press, 3/21/2004 11:58

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) Reports that led to charges against six U.S. soldiers accused of abusing detainees at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison came from within the military, not from prisoner complaints, a senior U.S. military official said Sunday.

The soldiers, members of a military police unit, were charged Saturday with a range of crimes, including conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another person. The military said about 20 detainees at the prison on the western outskirts of Baghdad were involved.
(snip)

On Sunday, another senior U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the matter ''originated within the U.S. military'' and was ''not brought forward by the detainees themselves.'' He declined to elaborate.
(snip/...)

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/081/world/Reports_of_alleged_abuse_of_de:.shtml

[saigon68]

25. Military thugs

I guess I have hit a nerve with a couple of disrupters. You know freepers who want the army to commit war crimes by killing civilians.

About 1 percent of the military are criminals of one sort or another and some are murderers. Military prisons are loaded with countless E-1's. Many doing life for murder, rape etc. Recently 4 returnees from Afghan to Ft. Bragg murdered their wives and girl friends in 4 separate incidents.

They have some fellow travelers at freep land who come over here to DU and want to cause trouble. These slow dimwits will not be responded to by me.

They see the world as simple black and white. Many claim to be veterans, but when confronted by the true veterans here, these miscreants are exposed mostly as draft dodging, Wannabees.

They are cowards like the bums and bullies they stand up for, with my country right or wrong. They hide behind a flag, a uniform and lies.

The true story is coming out. If these idiots attack anyone personally. Report them. I will debate in a courteous manner with anyone here. I will not be called names or unpatriotic by some freeper, military wannabee.

And now the real story is just coming out

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-1-2004_pg4_5


The latest investigation comes less than two weeks after the army discharged three soldiers for mistreating Iraqi detainees at a detention centre in Iraq called Camp Bucca.

The action stemmed from an incident May 12 in which investigators found that at least one detainee was held down while soldiers beat and kicked him at the urging of their superior, Master Sergeant Lisa Girman.

In October, eight US Marine reservists, including two officers, were charged with mistreating Iraqi prisoners of war at a detention facility called Camp Whitehorse.

Military prosecutors allege that an Iraqi man named Nagem Sadoon Hatab died at Camp Whitehorse in early June following a possible beating by US guards. —AFP

[texasdem99]

26. I don't "claim" to be a veteran, I am

US Army, 1989-1997.
Basic training, Ft. Leonard Wood, MO, 1989.
AIT at Defense Language Institute, Monterey, CA, Goodfellow AFB and Ft. Huachuca, 1991.
Desert Storm Veteran 1991
Overseas at Camp Humphries, Pyongtek, Korea, 1994.
Last duty assignment: 14th MI BN, Ft. Lewis, WA, 1997

Satisfied?

Now, thanks for accusing me of being a liar. Is that a personal attack? Along with calling me a "coward", a freeper, and a military wannabe. Glad I could put in my eight cowardly years in the Army for you. Should I be reaching for the alert button as you did?

I will give you credit; I re-read one of your responses and it seems as if you were saying that those who committed this crime were bullies and thugs, which is different from lambasting the entire Army as bullies and thugs.

But you backpedaled. That's not what your original statement said. You said:

"The U. S. military like the Nazi SS, appeals to cowardly bullies, slow witted bums, and individuals with an anti social pathology by the seduction of smart uniforms, guns and medals".

I joined to get my college loans paid off and to see a little bit of the world. I ended up going to war and getting shot at. Real fun. Naive, yes. Thuggish, no.

I'm just sick of the "I'm a veteran, I'm gonna trash the military, and there's nothing you can say to me, because I'm a veteran, and that trumps everything." No, it doesn't, especially when you are speaking to another veteran.

I don't want the Army to commit war crimes by killing civilians. I wish we weren't in Iraq at all.

My brother-in-law left for Afghanistan a month ago. Last night, at his daughter's birthday party, he called from there with his 15 minutes of satellite phone time. Just enough to say hello to all of us and make his daughter cry. I spent half an hour holding her and trying to tell her that her daddy would come home OK.

Then I come on to DU today and see you call her daddy a cowardly bully and a bum. You sound rational, do you not see why what you posted pissed me off so much? You don't think that this is an incredibly prejudicial, uninformed, broad-brush statement?

Bitch about Bush, about Iraq, foreign policy, whatever. These soldiers were a small minority. To paint the entire military as a bunch of slack-jawed sadists is pretty unfair.

If you think that statment is perfectly fair, well, then there's no hope for you, and we obviously disagree intensely on this issue.

[LagaLover]

27. I'm an active duty Lt Col

and I think your post was GREAT. Good job defending the VAST majority of those in uniform; I'm very proud of you!

[texasdem99]

28. No problem, ma'am

I just came unglued when I read that statement that day, especially after what I went through the night before.

You don't have to hate the military to vote Democratic.

I just don't understand when and where that type of thinking became the status quo.

Thanks to you for your continued service.

[jmowreader]

29. All that training in one year?

How did you get through the Korean language course, 98G school and EWOC in one year? 1989-1990 I can believe, but all that in less than a year?

I think my favorite 501st MI unit (besides the 209th, of course) was 3rd MI--you had GRCS, right? They only had IGRVs in 1984.

[texasdem99]

30. Whoa, you know your stuff

I might have messed up the dates. Korean language school is 36 or 38 weeks, I can't remember. But then they sent me right off to Goodfellow, that's a two and a half month TDY. And EWOC at Huachuca is only 5 weeks, or something. All I know is that I had three duty stations in a matter of fifteen or sixteen months, or something like that. Then we shipped out to the Gulf. It sucked.

You're spot on. I was at the 3rd MI, Guardrail, in Korea. Spinning and grinning. 'nuff said.

How'd you know I was a 98G? They send Charlies to that school, too. Lucky guess?

Actually, on Edit, my dates line up. I left for Basic in January 1989; finished that in 8 weeks, went to DLI, finished in early 1991, then to GFAFB, then Huachuca and then to the Gulf.

[jmowreader]

31. How I know you're not a 98C

The little stint at Huachuca--I know about EWAC, but I don't think they would have sent someone going to 501st MI to it. They sent all the 98Gs that went to Berlin to EWOC before we got 'em, and there was nothing remotely tactical about Berlin. I never went to EWAC, but all my tactical compatriots did.

How I got your unit: Humphreys was home to Diogenes Station and to the 3rd MI. You went from a place that had a Guardrail unit...to another Guardrail unit. Hence, odds were very high that you were in the Guardrail unit in Korea.

My assignments:

OPSEC Platoon, 311th MI Battalion, Fort Campbell, 1982-1984
SIGSEC Platoon, 209th MI Company, Yongsan Army Garrison, 1984-1985
SIGSEC Platoon, 163d MI Battalion, Fort Hood, 1985
Analysis and Reporting Section, Field Station Berlin, 1986-1992
Transcription and Analysis Team and TCAE, 110th MI Battalion, Fort Drum, 1992-1994

BTW, did the tap water at Goodfellow still taste like a cow died in it when you were there?

[texasdem99]

32. Wow! A fellow spook! Never thought I'd run into one here

Yes, the water tasted like crap and it was boring as hell.

The steakhouses, however, were excellent, as they are througout Texas. Love the food in that state. Ten bucks for a steak that is so big it falls off your plate. Whohoo!

Glad to know you, thanks for sharing.