Tech Firms Take More H-1Bs

[ChromeFoundry]

Source: Wall St. Journal

APRIL 22, 2010

By PUI-WING TAM
Silicon Valley companies have long relied on foreign skilled employees. During the recession, many big local technology firms appeared to hire a larger share of those workers compared with other top employers of professionals from overseas.

That is according to an analysis by the National Foundation for American Policy, a nonprofit nonpartisan policy research group in Arlington, Va. The group looked at government data on new H-1B visas that were awarded to the top 50 employers of such visa holders nationwide over the past four years. H-1B visas are the coveted visas that allow foreign skilled workers to be employed in the U.S.

According to the analysis, Silicon Valley companies such as Intel Corp. and Google Inc. received 14.7% of the new H-1Bs visas that were awarded to the top 50 H-1B employers for the year ended Sept. 30. That totaled about 2,110 approvals out of the total 14,315 such visas for the group.

Silicon Valley's share of such approvals was the highest it has been for several years. It was up from 6.1% in fiscal year 2008, 4.5% in fiscal year 2007 and 2.8% in fiscal year 2006, according to the analysis.

The findings don't necessarily show that Silicon Valley companies took advantage of the recession to hire H-1B visa holders. Instead, it suggests that local companies were simply more successful in getting their H-1B applications through, says Cynthia Lange, a partner at law firm Fragomen Del Rey Bernsen & Loewy, which specializes in immigration law.



Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303491304575188693581909362.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

[OhioChick]

1. This program should not exist in the current economic climate. n/t

[valerief]

13. +69 trillion

[HughBeaumont]

32. At one point in our history, we needed guest workers due to sparse population.

Zero Job Growth in the last 10 years tells us that time is long, LONG gone. When you have people with masters degrees and/or double digit experience years by the thousands upon thousands that cannot find jobs, there isn't any such need for h1-Bs or L1s.

[OhioChick]

99. You're absolutely right. n/t

[kath]

57. + a brazillion.

[DJ13]

2. F'ing disgusting

Friday, April 16, 2010
Silicon Valley unemployment rises to 12.3% in March

http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2010/04/12/daily90.html

[onpatrol98]

3. More Jobs Americans Won't Do, Apparently

:freak:

[treestar]

4. By statute there are 65000 of them per year

1. No big effect on the overall job market in a county with 300 million people.
2. They are limited by number, so "taking more" is irrelevant, and so is "taking advantage" of it. If you try to file one, there are huge filing and "training" fees - to get money to train US workers.


The obsession with these is stupid.

[OhioChick]

6. Are you in IT?

You're a lawyer, speaks volumes.

[treestar]

42. No. But I sure spend a lot of money on it.

I am forced to have a web page. Before you bash lawyers, recognize they are all forced to have web pages nowadays. Your employer can't hire or pay you at all without customers.

I am forced to file everything I file online now, even in the small courts. I can no longer take a paper filing to the courthouse.

EVERYTHING is done online now, which when I first started, could be done by letter or phone call. That is no longer an option. In my youth, we could talk to people on the phone. Now we get huge computerized menus.

No, I am not in IT, but I sure have spent $$$$$$$$$$$ on it - and had no choice.

The relatives or friends or clients I have in it have no obsession like yours. In fact, they recall lots of Indians in their companies in the 90s who are gone now, and thus associate their presence with prosperity. I have to say I think your difficulties in getting a job might have to do with other things. None of them had to train the replacement (which is starting to sound like something snopes could debunk). No complaints about the job market - most kept their jobs.

If you're going to be against immigrants, picking a LEGAL group is dumb. Why not rail against the blatant illegals like Lou Dobbs and Joe Arpaio? You're just scapegoating these people. And wasting energy, since, even if you were able to eliminate H visas and it's not a zero sum game, you might be contributing to the elimination of other jobs rather than gaining 65000 jobs per year. Jobs don't just exist, the employer has to have someone to sell to. Somebody paying for their services.

[UndertheOcean]

62. [phone] , Bravo. n/t

[OhioChick]

72. You said you're an H-1B...It would be in your best interest to agree with an immigration lawyer.

n/t

[UndertheOcean]

107. Are you insinuating something ? I am first and foremost a humanist.

god, you can taste the HATE throughout this thread.

[OhioChick]

109. I've said nothing "hateful" on this thread. n/t

[OhioChick]

79. Not bashing lawyers, only you

I find it highly amusing that you're on every outsourcing/offshoring/H-1B or free trade thread rambling about how great they all are for the US. You blatantly call out other members on a continual basis, as well as throwing our that race card.

Before inserting your foot inside your mouth on a topic you obviously know nothing about....here is some reading material for you. You whined throughout this entire thread asking for "proof" to what other members were saying.

Feds count H-1B applications as engineering unemployment spikes

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9131249/Feds_count_H_1B_applications_as_engineering_unemployment_spikes

H-1B visa use cuts U.S. programmer, software engineer wages by up to 6%

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9131729/H_1B_visa_use_cuts_U.S._programmer_software_engineer_wages_by_up_to_6_

US: Workers on visas easy to exploit

http://communicatinglabourrights.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/us-workers-on-visas-easy-to-exploit/

Info Tech Unemployment Tops 5% (from a year ago, has since risen significantly

http://www.informationweek.com/news/global-cio/trends/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=216402752

U.S.: H-1B workers outnumber unemployed techies

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9133529/U.S._H_1B_workers_outnumber_unemployed_techies

H-1B visa holders are paid less than US counterparts.....article straight from an Indian news source

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/nm16/H-1B-visa-holders-paid-less-in-US/Article1-147259.aspx

[superconnected]

100. You spot a propagandist. Good job keeping track.

This is no climate for work visas. They should only exist where we absolutely can't find labor in the country to do jobs. I would expect them in positions like scientists who are one of the top 5 in the world at what they do and happen to come from another country, not in computer related jobs which this country has tens of thousands of people that can do the job and are unemployed because there are no jobs.

[pezDispenser]

104. bullshit

At the company I currently work for, we are hiring a Ruby on Rails developer - a solid guy, not some kid who just read a book. We've been looking for 3 months and have had 3 interviews to date. 2 Americans and 1 H1B. All 3 were very junior developers who would not be able to contribute. Mind you, at this position you can work anywhere in the country because we all work remotely. We pay very well - certainly above average for some locations and surely below average for others.

Quit running your mouth about how 'this country has tens of thousands of people that can do the job and are unemployed because there are no jobs.' I have a job for any truly qualified RoR developer and cannot find one.

[UndertheOcean]

108. You don't know , they expect you to train them on the Job . n/t

[superconnected]

114. BULL SHIT! Are you way out in the sticks? I see the problem where I am - Seattle.

I have a full time job as a server admin but I know how hard they are to come by and have seen two lay offs twice in the last year where all of the other techs but me were laid off and replaced by H1B's that were just okay at the job.

[pezDispenser]

116. Phoenix here n/t

[Regret My New Name]

118. I know some 'real' RoR developers in need in of work.

Any chance I could get this information to forward to them?

[Regret My New Name]

117. Hmmm.. I think most people are blaming the companies who are doing it

not the immigrants taking the job. I personally don't blame the people who take these jobs. I blame the companies though.

[Thor_MN]

122. I trained my H1B replacement, so get rid of your preconceptions

Realize that your limited experience can not be extrapolated to the entire country. No one person's acquaintences are a representative sample of all aspects of life. Dare to think that you might not know everything, that just possibly, there may be more than what you have personally experienced.

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I think most people who complain about H1B visas are not complaining about immigrants, they are complaining about companies. It's not about xenophobia like you would like to portray it, it's about having a job.

[Lost4words]

124. Amen! nt

[HughMoran]

7. They are more highly skilled jobs - we had 3 in one office of 20 alone

They are very common in engineering departments - they come here and get paid 1/3 to 1/2 of what American workers make. While it is true that it is sometimes difficult to find good skilled workers when the economy is good, this past recession saw the highest unemployment rate among tech-pros in my lifetime IIRC. When American engineers are out of work, bringing over low-paid foreign tech-pros is sure to lead to some anger.

[treestar]

47. The company has to prove it can and does pay the prevailing wage

There are other factors, too, so that one employee is paid less than another - the more experienced gets paid more.

I only wish I could have had the brains to be an engineer, it seems like something you have to be really smart to do and a company could run out of Americans.

[HughMoran]

52. I hate to tell you this, but companies lie. H1B people have no leverage at all

"You complain, you go back to your home country" - it was as simple as that.

[pezDispenser]

105. This is not true

There are 'consulting' companies who will hold the H1B visa for the worker, allowing them to choose where to work and find another job if they would like. There is a charge for this, but it gives the worker much more 'leverage'

[OhioChick]

110. Very true. n/t

[Oregone]

8. "1. No big effect on the overall job market in a county with 300 million people."

We aren't talking about 300 million people. We are talking about the pool of unemployed domestic IT professionals they are replacing, which is more than enough to do every last one of these jobs.

The bottom line is that it is cheaper labor. If they did not care about the cost of this labor (but rather the quality), instances of fraud in the H1-B system would not be so widespread.

[gcomeau]

19. I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue.

"The bottom line is that it is cheaper labor. "

You can't get H1Bs for any job you're paying less than the prevailing average wage for. No H1B worker is "cheaper labor". It's a primary requirement of the filing that the salary you're paying the person for the job you want them to do matches the going rate for that job description in the market precisely to ensure that the person being hired is being brought in for needed skills instead of just to undercut US worker's salaries.

[Oregone]

21. I think it is you that is gravely mistaken

"You can't get H1Bs for any job you're paying less than the prevailing average wage for"

You can if you commit fraud and pay far below that wage, which is specified on the application.

I guess you never heard of H1-B fraud. Maybe you have your head in the sand.

[gcomeau]

22. I'm sorry... let me confirm this.

You're all pissed off at the H1B program because it's possible for people to illegally bypass its rules and not do what it says?

Will your next rant be on the evils of workplace safety standards because some employers violate those too?

Perhaps you could lead a protest on how horrible environmental protection regulations are because illegal dumping exists!


Or... and this is just a wild idea off the top of my head... instead of demonizing the law get all righteously pissed off and ranting AT THE PEOPLE BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW.

[Oregone]

48. Im saying the existence of the rampant fraud is a clear indication the program is not about quality

Its about saving money. This program is very often not being used with good will

[UndertheOcean]

63. +1000.

[LoZoccolo]

83. The law is flawed because it's difficult to enforce.

It grants a priviledge that can easily be abused without fear of punishment, and with the possibility of retribution against people reporting violations.

[Thor_MN]

123. Nice try, making safety standards and replacing workers equivalent.

How many people have died because a company didn't have enough cheap immigrant labor?

Perhaps you could understand that a law enacted under certain conditions might no longer make sense? Or maybe, and this is just of the top of my head, you could stop blindly apologizing for corporate interests?

[LoZoccolo]

23. They get paid less despite that requirement.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

[gcomeau]

26. And here's the problem with that claim...

Let's take his own example... programmers.

Looking at the H1-B LCA disclosures, sure you average them out and the average for "programmer" is lower than the BLA survey average wage for "programmer".

OMG! They're paying people less to do the same job when they're not supposed to!" you promptly declare, and people on DU turn red in the face and start stomping their feet and throwing tantrums.

Only, last time I checked "programmer" covered a HELL of a lot of ground, with a HELL of a wide salary range. And the pool of H1B workers is extremely small relative to the total programmer workforce. And we have this thing called "margins of error" and "measurement uncertainty".

Sure. The average salary for a "programmer" in the H1-B disclosures was mid 50k. Did you happen to know the standard deviation? I do. I just downloaded the figures and crunched the numbers. It's over $15k. There are people on there getting 30k a year, and there are people on there getting 150 grand. And there's the little detail that the BLA and the H1B LCA don't have 1 to 1 job title equivalency between them.

Starting to see some issues with this "study" yet?

[treestar]

43. A study that "suggests" this to people who want to believe it

The DOL statistics on unemployment show that professionals (which Hs have to be) have a continued low rate of unemployment. The overall rate is high because construction workers are at 17% and salespersons at 10% and a couple of other categories. And don't assert that the DOL is in on the conspiracy. That's ridiculous.

It is hard to believe one particular program of the government is such a massive failure. I can only imagine how badly the health care plan would be carried out, and environmental and other regulations.

Hiding behind this as support for xenophobia is inexcusable. There is labor that would come in from abroad that would stimulate the economy. We do not choose to say no to this in order to appease the xenophobes, which have always existed for as long as this nation has existed - and it is a nation of immigrants.

[Oregone]

50. "Hiding behind this as support for xenophobia is inexcusable"

Labeling a debate on policy and protecting workers about xenophobia is inexusable and downright disgusting. This field has been getting shredded for going on a decade now, in both jobs and wages, and you are suggesting that its about xenophobia? You should be ashamed.

[HughMoran]

59. Companies lie. My company did.

Do you really think a company won't do anything it can to get a competitive advantage?

[Thor_MN]

125. I don't know, most people who apolgize for corporations like you appear to be doing

are all about calling all government programs massive failures. Well, maybe not all programs, they seem to like the corporate giveaways.

Hiding corporaphilia behind a repeated attribution of xenophobia is likewise inexcusable. I know of no one that dislikes H1b visas due to xenophobia. Granted, there may be racists out there, but from my viewpoint, it's not about the people coming here to work, it's about the companies that are bring them here.

There has to be some benefit to filling out all the paperwork and paying fees or the companies simply wouldn't be doing it. It could be that there are no qualified people in the US to do the job, or it could be that the the companies are gaming the system to lower wages. I don't know, unemployment is high and companies like to save money... could go either way, really, wonder which it is?

[HughMoran]

58. I have the proof

Trust me, they blackmail them - they would simply send them back to their third world country if they complain. It is so hard to even get a slot to get to the US in places like the Philippines, these people will be subservient of suffer the consequences. Companies are evil.

[gcomeau]

61. "I have the proof... trust me!"

I can't possibly reply to that with anything that would make my point better than you just made it for me. your proof... is "trust me, they do this". Sheer genius.

[HughMoran]

65. I can give you the names of 3 Philippinos who were screwed by this company

You simply don't want to hear it as I assume you're one of those who does H1B's at your big company.

C'est la vie.

[gcomeau]

71. A whole THREE PEOPLE??? OMG! I repent!

Clearly the entire H1-B visa program is over-run with rampant corruption, because you think some company you work for screwed 3 people. There's just no fighting that kind of solid and incontrovertable evidence.

[LoZoccolo]

74. What would you accept as proof that people are skirting the laws about pay? n/t

[gcomeau]

77. Clarify your question.

That "People" are doing it? I'd accept that is happening as a basic common sense principle without any real need for proof.

But that is not the issue, is it? the claim is that there is some kind of fraud epidemic over-running the H1-B visa program. You want to make a claim like that, show me hard data. I've seen exactly one person try and do that, and the "study" they presented was just some guy who took really non-specific wage data for things like "programmers" and decided they didn't match up to his satisfaction while ignoring that "programmer" covers a hell of a lot of ground and the two data sets he was comparing weren't intended for 1 to 1 comparisons to each other.

[LoZoccolo]

80. What would you accept as proof that...

..."there is some kind of fraud epidemic over-running the H1-B visa program"? What specific test - not a generalized demand for "hard data" - would tell you that that statement is true or false in a manner acceptable to you?

[Oregone]

82. Probably nothing

Not even this:
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db2008108_844949.htm?chan=rss_topEmailedStories_ssi_5

[HughMoran]

88. agreed

It's nice to be in full agreement with you on this topic :hi:

[Oregone]

89. Yeah, thats a first, right?

:)

[HughMoran]

92. lmao!

...does seem that way at times :rofl:

[gcomeau]

90. Next time read the link, then post it.

"High Rate of H-1B Visa Fraud
A study finds that 13% of the visa petitions for U.S. employers to bring in skilled foreign workers are fraudulent "

Wow! 13% is actually pretty bad.

Who figured this out?

"A report released Oct. 8 by the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) reveals that 13% of petitions filed for H-1B visas on behalf of employers are fraudulent. Another 7% contain some sort of technical violations. "

Oh. Ummm.. it was the people responsible for reviewing and approving the petitions, and enforcing the standards of the program.

Hmm.

And they know they were fraudulent.

Hmm...

Do you suppose that means they're monitoring this stuff and doing things about it??? Nah. They just go around uncovering fraud then saying "Ok, we caught ya! Now carry on." That must be it, right?

Therefore, the only possible way to deal with this is to screw the other 87% of the program who are playing by the rules by shutting it down.

[HughMoran]

94. We actually got a purchasing agent over here on an H1-B

:rofl:

Yeah, that's a technical skill that no American could possibly do - lol!

[Oregone]

95. As I figured

The existence of rampant fraud, even if enforced, is not enough to illustrate to you that numerous employers are involved in this program in bad faith, and therefore, not simply looking for more quality labor (but cheaper labor)


And thats just what they caught.

[gcomeau]

97. As *I* figured.

You have no response to the substance of what I posted so you just accused me of ignoring it even though I did nothing of the kind.

Posting this study as an example of the existence of the type of fruad necessary to justify shutting down the program is like posting the statistics on how many people the police CATCH breaking into other people's houses as evidence that we need to shut down the police force because look at all the people breaking into other people's houses! OBVIOUSLY the police aren't doing their jobs!

[Oregone]

102. You must be dizzy

"as an example of the existence of the type of fraud necessary to justify shutting down the program..."

No...this is merely posted as an indicator that companies are looking for low-wage workers

As for a justification...well, there are enough out of work domestic IT workers to justify it alone, period. And that is a point that is beyond irrefutable.

[gcomeau]

85. Do you know what a "burden of proof" is?

How exactly is it MY responsibility to build your study of how you prove your claim for you? Yes, I want "hard data". No, I didn't tell the people in here claiming the program is over-run with fraud how they were supposed to actually provide any evidence OF THEIR OWN CLAIM.

If you don't like it, tough. If I was the one making the claim...

No, scratch that. I don't make totally unsupported claims about entire national government programs in the absence of supporting data in the first place, so that's just unrealistic. See, I'd START with information that showed widespread fraud, THEN I'd form the opinion there was such fraud, THEN I'd go on the internet and tell people about it and astoundingly enough, I'd be able to back it up.

I'm just funny that way though. CRAZY, right?

[LoZoccolo]

91. It's your responsibility because you could respond to it if you wanted to.

Barely anyone here believes that you actually care whether or not the program is being abused, and that you'd actually change your mind if you were shown otherwise. If you don't care about that, fine, but if you do, I would think you wouldn't run from making a falsifiable claim.

[gcomeau]

93. What???

Ok...

"Lozocollo tortures puppies for fun on the weekends."

It is now YOUR responsibility to respond and demonstrate that people should NOT believe my claim. It is in no way my responsibiliuty to back up my claim with my own data, because you could respond if you wanted to.

How the hell do you even think that makes sense?

[LoZoccolo]

96. I'm not asking you to prove or disprove a claim, just state a criteria that you would accept. n/t

[gcomeau]

98. Hard. Statistical. Data. -nt

[LoZoccolo]

103. So to confirm, you would accept anything statistical, even if it's not about workers and salaries?

I thought we already did that.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

[HughMoran]

75. Clearly the program is perfect because your company is somewhat honest

:rofl:

We can play this game all day long - but I can tell you that was the way of doing business for my company.

The 3 people were 15% of my office and I sided with them & had to hear all the nightmare stories they were told by management. I was shocked when I found out the guy who I worked closely with was making 40% of what I made, when he should have easily been making 80% of my salary. But go right ahead and assume that the program must only have a few exceptions because you don't see them. Don't you agree that the exceptions are more consequential as these are real people who's lives are being turned upside-down through manipulation and blackmail?

[gcomeau]

78. Listen Einstein.

I have now TWICE posted this to you. I'm going to do it one more time then I'm going to adopt the position that you do not exist and you can yap away to your heart's content.

If you know of some isolated instance in your own workplace where your employer is breaking the law and fraudulently claiming to hire people at prevailing wages while clearly not doing so, how's this for an idea? TELL SOMEONE WHO CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT instead of bitching about the existence of the entire visa program and implying it's over-run with fraud just because you think you know a few people who don't get paid what they should.

WHAT PART OF THAT tells you I think the program is "PERFECT"? Can you or can you not read?

[HughMoran]

86. Did you not note in one of my posts that ANYBODY who rats out gets blacklisted?

You cannot take on many companies and expect to have a job in the industry for long. Everybody knows everybody when you're a professional. One reason I could never use my real name here is that it would jeopardize my ability to provide for my family - a risk i do not want to take at this time. Why don't you believe that many multi-national corporations are often 'win at all cost' competitive? I'm in contact with enough other professionals to know that what I witnessed was not an isolated incident. I may not want to risk my career on being a whistleblower, but I'll be damned if I'll take your word for it that everything is rosy and that H1-B abuse is 'rare'. That's just not my experience.

[HughMoran]

53. Then why did our H1B people practically hit the floor when they found out what we were making?

Companies lie. There is a lot of leeway in the "prevailing wage" language, trust me.

There are many ways to get people over here - even where there is a qualified American who could easily fill the job - trust me on this.

Oh, and do you know what the company does to any H1B person who complains? 1) lays the person off - green card or no, they don't care or 2) simply reassigns them to the Asian division and finds another more compliant person to fill the job.

My company was a multi-billion dollar multinational - they broke the law many many times. People don't complain if they want to work again - big companies can black-list employees, making it virtually impossible for them to get a decent job in their profession ever again.

[gcomeau]

64. Wow...

Two "trust me" statements in the opening two sentences.

Since I happen to:

1. Work for a company that uses H1-B workers

2. Know what they make.

3. Know it's equivalent to what everyone else doing the same job is making.

No, I won't trust you. If you know of some isolated instance in your own workplace where your employer is breaking the law and fraudulently claiming to hire people at prevailing wages while clearly not doing so, how's this for an idea? TELL SOMEONE WHO CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT instead of bitching about the existence of the entire visa program and implying it's over-run with fraud just because you think you know a few people who don't get paid what they should.

[HughMoran]

67. So all companies are equally honest

:rofl:

You're a real gem.

Yeah, I trust all big companies to the letter of the law :eyes:

My company is as sleazy as it gets, I'm happy that you trust all big companies - which are, btw, made up of people - some greedier that others. Think about it for a minute :think:

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

54. dupe

dupe

[Romulox]

55. Wages are set by the availability of labor. This is remedial economics. nt

[gcomeau]

66. I'm confused...

... are you disagreeing with me or disputing me?

And are you or are you not familiar with thing like, say, minimum wage? Wages are set by the availability of labor in a free labor market. However there's these things called laws that limit how this happens. Like the one that says you can't hire H1-B workers at lower wages than other people doing equivalent work in the same area.

[Romulox]

87. Agreed on your confusion. The mere existence of a larger labor pool depresses wages.

I am most certainly not agreeing with you.

"And are you or are you not familiar with thing like, say, minimum wage?"

Your change of topic is bizarre--minimum wage laws have no application with regard to H1B visas.

"Like the one that says you can't hire H1-B workers at lower wages than other people doing equivalent work in the same area."

Wages are set by supply and demand. A larger supply of labor will necessarily depress wages, the widely flouted "prevailing wage" provisions notwithstanding. That means even allowing that a "prevailing wage" must be paid to H1B visa holders, that "prevailing wage" must be lower with the presence of the additional workers in the labor pool than without them. That's because there are more people competing for the same jobs. Again, this is elementary economics.

[DatManFromNawlins]

73. I'm sorry, but YOU don't have a clue

I've worked all 3 sides of the IT desk, as developer, headhunter, and manager.

If you believe that H1-Bs are paid the same rates as Americans, you need to stop commenting on the subject. H1-B shops routinely push wages lower by up to 50% or more.

Here's a common tactic:

Company lists job with an improbable if not impossible set of skills. Americans apply but are routinely turned down. Company hires H1-B claiming that no American can do the job, even though the H1 usually is less qualified than the Americans.

I'll take my experience over your vigorous hand waving any day.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Juche]

27. Plus easier to threaten labor

An H1-B visa holder is easier for an employer to threaten and intimidate than a US worker with the rights and freedoms of a US citizen.

http://www.itpaa.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1475


http://programmersguild.org/docs/h1b_abuses_april2005.html

5) The H-1B visa used for involuntary servitude

Among the cherished liberties of living in America is that, if employer abuses or is otherwise unreasonable to an employee, the employee can say:

“F*** you, I quit.”

But, in the case of H-1B workers, the employer grins and responds:

“Yeah? Well f*** you too, because I hold your visa and passport, and only opportunity for a greencard.”

http://www.ailf.org/pubed/n022100a.htm (Mirrored at www.programmersguild.org/local/h1b_slavery.html )

“ has given birth to a multimillion-dollar industry, shuttling high-tech workers for a lucrative fee from continent to continent. Critics call the companies that find the workers "body shops." They say the program, known as H-1B, stems from a patchwork of immigration laws and policies triggered by special interests and fueled by a vast pool of unwitting immigrants in pursuit of the American dream.

"Since I was treated like a bonded slave, I didn't have any other alternative except leaving the company," Narayanasamy Sekar wrote…

The investigation by the Baltimore Sun found:

* In violation of federal law, visa holders often collect a small fraction of the salaries they've been promised while doing make-work projects and refining computer skills.
* If workers quit, they are frequently sued by employers claiming damages of $30,000 or more.
* Workers who challenge employers are routinely threatened with being sent back to their homeland.
* Body shop operators regularly bill U.S. companies at rates three to four times the salary being paid to their foreign workers.
* U.S. workers have been displaced by less costly foreign labor contracted out to H-1B visa holders.
* Court records show the visa holders are recruited by contractors, then brought to the United States for assignment. If no job is waiting, the worker may be placed by another body shop, which gets a percentage of the fee.
* Revenues have soared for visa vending companies created to bring in temporary foreign workers. Mastech Corp. and Syntel Inc. reported combined revenue of well over a half-billion dollars in 1998, according to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
* Immigration lawyers collect fees of $2,000 to $2,500 for each H-1B application. With a limit of 115,000 H-1B visas per year, that represents some $230 million a year in potential legal fees. "It's the bread and butter for a lot of people," said Kenneth Rinzler, an immigration lawyer in Washington, who said he advises his clients against using H-1B visas.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. You know that what they're trying to do is affect the salary of American workers.

They get enough of these Visa workers in the US to supplement American IT workers, and soon the IT workers will be willing to work for half the cost. When that day comes, expect pressure to rise to get CEO pay down from the stratosphere.

[treestar]

41. I need proof IT are out of work in large numbers

Not just as assertion on DU.

The OP has done millions of posts on DU on this one subject. I looked it up and your last assertion is false. I've posted that 999,999 times. They have to be paid prevailing wage and the government is not a total and complete failure at enforcing its laws.

H-1Bs exist by statute and the program can't just be stopped by order of the President, it would take an Act of Congress.

[Oregone]

49. "The OP has done millions of posts on DU on this one subject"

You are correct. That makes them an authority...posting at DU


:rofl:



"They have to be paid prevailing wage"

Unfortunately, very often this program is abused by these wholesome employers who are just looking for great IT people. Go figure

:shrug:

[OhioChick]

70. Proof?

U.S.: H-1B workers outnumber unemployed techies

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9133529/U.S._H_1B_workers_outnumber_unemployed_techies

Your quote: "The OP has done millions of posts on DU on this one subject."

Might want to brush up on "DU Rules."

3. Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.

[jeff47]

9. As others pointed out

Your #1 is wrong. It's not 300M people. It's the number of people employed and unemployed in IT, not the total population.

According to BLS, that's about 2,177,000 employed: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t22.htm
(there are probably more mislabeled under the other categories)

If we go with the 2.1M number, and assume all H1-Bs are in IT, that means 650,000 H1-Bs are actually about 30% of the IT workforce.

[valerief]

14. +69 trillion

[pezDispenser]

18. 65,000

you are wrong. 3% of the workforce.

[treestar]

44. Would that matter?

It's a matter of openings, not a matter of percentage. You're asserting that 30% can be replaced by Americans, and that may actually not be so.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

24. Here is what I want to know...

Where is the outrage over the E3 visa?

The E3 is far and away the most generous work visa we hand out. In that it not only allows Australian professionals into the country but is also covers their dependents allowing them to work in the US. So their stealing TWICE as many jobs. Where is the outrage?

There are literally three of these families on my street.

Are you australian? Check.
Are you breathing? Check.
Do you have a criminal record? Nope.

<STAMP> Your in, now serving number 10,441 - would number 10,441 please approach the desk?

Where is the incredulous posts about "those fucking australians are taking our jobs?" or "I am getting laid off I had to train my fucking australian replacement!"

What about the TN visa? "My company just hired twenty more fucking Canadians and they suck!"

What is it about Australians... and Canadians... and Chileans... and Singaporeans that doesn't quite illicit quite the same outrage as the ungodly H1B?

[Lasher]

33. Of the total 5,804,180 nonimmigrant visas issued in FY 2009, 31,617 were issued to Australians

2,191 of them were E3 visas. 323 E3 applications were refused.

5,079 nonimmigrant visas were issued to Canadians during FY 2009. 48,152 went to Chile. Singapore got 9,532.

Mexico got 862,823 - more than any other nation.

http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/statistics/statistics_4582.html

Perhaps you are overly sensitive to the presence of Australians because you live in a city whose sister city is Windham, Australia. Regardless of the reason, your resentment is misplaced.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

51. I am nothing but sarcastic

I just find it interesting that certain nationalities of "job stealers" go under the radar - while their are calls for mass-deportations of others - hell on THIS WEBSITE there have been calls for violence against Indian immigrants.

[Lasher]

120. If you say so. You have harbored this sarcasm awhile.

This is not the first time you have complained about E3 visas. I just wanted to point out, we as a nation are not actually up to our eyeballs in Australians. I am not in favor of violence against any immigrants. But if some nationalities get more attention than others, it just might be because 'the radar' is picking up airplanes but not sparrows.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

121. No really, it is a joke. I'm not complaining about Australians

I just find it interesting that people will go into a psychotic rage over H1B visas - which are associated with Indians, but similar and even more generous visas that are issued to non-Indians (particularly whites and hyper-anglicized orientals) don't seem to illicit the same outrage.

[Greyhound]

119. Believe me, if the numbers of E3, TN, or whatever visas was in the ballpark as the H-1(b) & L-1 visa...

we would be screaming about them as well. Just as you would be if your entire profession was stolen out from under you.

Apparently you either don't understand the scale or simply don't give a shit about hundreds of thousands of families literally wiped out, all so that a few billionaires can have more.

[DisgustedTX]

115. Not if your work environment consists of 80% visa workers

more arriving every week in my workplace displacing American workers.

Our department is technical; the company is not.

[daleo]

5. It's a travesty, how IT workers are treated

My university continues to churn out programmers (and collect their tuition), while they offshore huge parts of the administrative computing system. How long can that model work?

[onpatrol98]

11. Not Long!

[Rapier09]

12. The problem is(&#12356;&#12356;&#12397;)

We have a situation where Americans pay out of their nose to get an education so they can be IT workers.I am sure it is time consuming as well for Indians and others but it has a negative affection on those here who make that sacrifice.

In this economy we should have a mortarium on new emigres coming over for high-demand jobs.It is not going to destroy America's IT industry.

[alp227]

16. As an engineering student I feel really concerned.

The government has got to establish a quota for H-1B's. Seriously, this problem is getting out of hand that H-1B's are pretty much running over the domestic workforce.

[pezDispenser]

17. as an engineering student who is really concerned

you should familiarize yourself with the facts. H1B's are capped at about 65,000 baring some exceptions.

[pezDispenser]

20. I am in IT

and I work with H1B's. One of my best friends is an H1B from India, and I am thankful that things worked out they way they did that I am able to work with him everyday. Most of you are woefully uninformed. The number of H1B's is 3% of the total workforce, hardly a driving force. This % has remained stable for the past decade, so there is no influx of 'cheap labor' taking my job. In fact, as is normal in the IT business - my friend makes more than me simply because he was hired 2 years later.

Are there bad H1B workers out there, absolutely. Are there bad American IT workers out there? I don't give a shit where you are from if I work with you, help me do my job better and I hope I help you do yours better.

If you want to look at companies taking advantage of the H1B program, start with 'consulting' companies who are nothing more than H1B visa holders. They are the problem, not the larger legitimate companies.

[onpatrol98]

36. One of my best friends is an H1B from India

It's never a problem, until you're walking one of your friends out of an office with a box of their belongings. Or, if its you that's walking out. Percentages mean nothing, until you attach faces to them.

[daggahead]

39. Or if your "best friend" is the one you have to train to take your job. n/t

[onpatrol98]

40. +1

[pezDispenser]

106. why would that only apply to H1B's?

Is there some law saying I can't be replaced by an American if my employer so chooses?

[treestar]

46. Some layoffs may occur outside that context

This pitiful sob story is likely an urban myth - set out by bitter people who lost their jobs because they didn't do a good job, and the Hs exist and look like a convenient scapegoat.

I am amazed at the bitterness that results from merely pointing out what the rules are regarding prevailing wages for H1Bs and that the job market for professional workers is not really bad, even in the recession. it smacks of someone who could not hang onto a job even if there were no recession and a complete stop to all immigration. OPs obsession with this one subject highly suggests this.

[Romulox]

56. What makes you a "progressive"? It's not caring about your fellow man. nt

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[harry_pothead]

29. Tell that to the 150 American programmers in Washington State who got mass-fired

to make room for 150 H1B workers on the cheap.

[DatManFromNawlins]

76. There's a large company, you may have heard of it:

initials B & L, which terminated the contracts of dozens of technical people on a Peoplesoft project a few years ago and brought in H1s at about a 60% pay rate decrease to take their spot. I had a consultant on the project who was flying cross country weekly for 60 bucks an hour, and he's one of the best in his field. He made the cut, but because he's a functional resource.

[onpatrol98]

35. Craziest Rant I've Ever Heard

"H1-B visas? BRING THEM ON! Anything to drain wealth, and so drain cultural power, from the most contemptible and malignant sector of society that has ever had the opportunity to climb -- it's a good thing!"

IT covers a lot of working people and very few of them of wealthy. What the heck are you talking about? Why would you malign an entire profession? What is your occupation?

[onpatrol98]

38. By the way...

Typical H-1B occupations include architects, engineers, computer programmers, accountants, doctors, business managers, and college professors. The H-1B visa program also includes fashion models.

NOT just IT.

[harry_pothead]

28. ELIMINATE THE GOD DAMN H1B PROGRAM.

Zero, done, nada, send the ones here back home.

[harry_pothead]

30. PS: People who hire H1bs for engineering and critical jobs when Americans are avialable...

...are guilty of treason. Yes, treason. Straight up, capital-crime, death-penalty, treason.

[hayu_lol]

34. H1B should end ...

NOW.

This is exactly how we lost hundreds of industries over the past 50 years...and the jobs that came with them.

[superconnected]

101. +1

[ramapo]

111. Incalculable cost

The H1-B program has deprived hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Americans their high-tech jobs. It is beyond an outrage.

[treestar]

45. Oh, Good God!

:rofl:

[HughMoran]

113. Heads of my former company are guilty of a lot more than H1B abuse

...and yes, I believe they should be executed for treason for what they are doing to this country.

[daggahead]

37. I have to wonder if the big screw-up @ McAffee ...

... was due to an off-shore worker.

[valerief]

60. The Take My Job Now link

http://www.myvisajobs.com/Top_Visa_Sponsors.aspx

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OhioChick]

84. From the Rules page:

4. Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements.

[Endangered Specie]

112. and why does no one speak about this on capitol hill

Seems like saying "hey I want to scrap a program that gives 65,000 American jobs to foreigners" would make for some good commercials come election season.