Investigators say St. Paul Toyota had its brakes on (sent him to jail for eight years)

[Omaha Steve]

Source: USA Today

We're not lawyers, but this seems like it's a good sign for imprisoned driver Koua Fong Lee: Investigators have found his brake lights were on at the time of a crash that sent him to jail for eight years.

Lee was found guilty of criminal vehicular homicide after the 1996 Toyota Camry he was driving sped up an exit ramp and crashed into an Oldsmobile in St. Paul. The driver and his 9-year-old son died at the scene. Another child in the car died from her injuries a year later.

Lee has said all along that he lost control of the car and couldn't get it to stop:

His attorney decided to ask for another trial once Toyota began recalling cars for sudden acceleration issues.



Read more: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/04/investigators-say-st-paul-toyota-had-its-brakes-on-/1

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By Thomas Whisenand, AP
This June 10, 2006 photo shows a 1996 Camry driven by Koua Fong Lee that crashed into the back of an Oldsmobile Ciera in St. Paul, Minn. Lee said he could not stop the car. Investigators say they've found evidence the brake lights were on at the time of the crash.

[DesertFlower]

1. 8 years later they investigate?

[davepc]

4. He asked for a new trial and the car was still sitting in the impound lot.

[BrklynLiberal]

6. My first thought as well. Why the hell did they wait 8 years???

I guess at this point Mr. Lee can sue a lot of different entities..

[dflprincess]

12. Toyota's recent problems gave them reason to reinvestigate the crash

before that it was considered a closed case.

[BrklynLiberal]

20. i guess that means that everyone assumed the guy was lying, and never even tried to verify his story

If they can tell after 8 years that the brake lights were on, they could have found that out a lot sooner, I would guess.
Among those he should sue is his defense attorney.

[Raschel]

25. Ramsey County Atty. Susan Gaertner says no new trial w/o solid evidence. Hell, they didn't have

solid evidence when they convicted him.

[Downtown Hound]

34. Ah, good old Susan

The same hypocritical Nazi bitch that slapped countless false charges against RNC protesters in an effort to prevent them from suing the city for the multiple abuses they suffered during the RNC. How did I know her name would pop up in this someplace?

[FiveGoodMen]

35. Same woman who went after the RNC8 and wants to be our Governor

Frankly, the Dems have too big a tent.

[Downtown Hound]

37. That woman is appaling

I'm ashamed to be of the same species as her, much less the same party.

[BrklynLiberal]

40. She's a DEM?? Oy.

[MineralMan]

55. I can guarantee that she will not be the next Governor of MN.

She doesn't have a prayer.

[dflprincess]

56. I can't believe she hasn't dropped out

I don't think she got any support at the caucuses & district conventions and she was on the straw ballot. She's delusional if she thinks she can win in the primary. I haven't heard anything about her campaign except for emails (I seem to be on every candidate's email list).

[1monster]

66. But isn't that a decision made by the courts? A prosecutor will have the option to argue against a

new trial, but it would be up to the Appeals Court to make the final decision, not County Attorney Susan Gaertner.

As an aside, every time I hear about a prosecutor/other law enforcement of a case insiting that justice has been served by a conviction in the face of convincing evidence that the conviction was a mistake, my belief that our law enforcement and court officials are not interested in any way about Justice.

[dflprincess]

28. At the time they had mechanics who said the brakes were working

Apparently no one checked to see if the accelerator was stuck and it looks like no one checked to see if the brakes were on at the time of the crash. I kind of understand missing the accelerator but I don't get why no one checked the lights if that could have verified his story.

[Kolesar]

33. If the three brake light filaments were broken, that means the lights were on

Because the filaments would have been hot and would break when the shock of the collision occurred.

[skepticscott]

46. Sorry, but

that's not the way it works.

[Kolesar]

63. I heard it on NPR, so

I win the arguement

[skepticscott]

68. Well, I've done those examinations

which trump any hack on NPR who hasn't. They're wrong...plain and simple.

[wolfgangmo]

50. You can't re-open a case without new evidence.

The recalls were new evidence. The case had been appealed before but was denied until now because the new evidence presented was not considered compelling. It was only considered a theory and not substantial enough to re-open.

The state did not revisit the case, the defence appealed.

[Dappleganger]

45. 'Cuz he wasn't white.

[architect359]

64. Unfortunately I have to +1 to this...

[Omaha Steve]

11. He hasn't finished full sentence, the accident was in 2006

So at least he shouldn't have to finish his sentence after this.

[TommyO]

23. He shouldn't have had to serve a day for Toyota's faulty vehicle.

[SkyDaddy7]

24. They will fight to keep him in jail despite the evidence...

Look how hard prosecutors fight to keep folks in prison when there is clear DNA evidence that points to their innocence! They have beds to keep filled so they meet their quotas! More prisoners more money in this age of privatized prisons!

I hope he gets justice but I fear he will be tied up in court battles until his scheduled release date regardless of what the evidence says.

[wolfgangmo]

51. Let's be clear about this.

Minnesota only uses one private prison and has had so many problems with it that the contract may not be renewed. Minnesota's prisons are all union and all public with the one exception and they all run pretty well.

The reason the DA will fight this has to do with conviction statistics. And if she is looking at a run for the governors seat then she needs to "look tough" on crime. If she stays a DA then the criminal conviction rate is crucial to promotions.

The reason is purely political but it has nothing to do with Minnesota's prisons.

[SkyDaddy7]

62. Thank-you!

I apologize for my error! I should have checked.

However, it still sickens me that prosecutors would knowingly hold innocent people just for personal gain. Hopefully this will not be the case for this man.

[Zoeisright]

2. I remember that. That poor guy.

Those people are dead because of Toyota's lies.

And Lee's life was ruined because of a corrupt corporation.

[FiveGoodMen]

3. "And Lee's life was ruined because of a corrupt corporation"

And because of a jury that wanted to punish someone.

[ecstatic]

5. damn. Can we say LAWSUIT????!!

He needs 10 million for every year spent in prison and an extra 50 million for being made to feel like a horrible person. I'm sure he felt bad enough!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. What if he applied brakes only a second or two before the crash?

[Downtown Hound]

13. If that was the case, then they should be able to tell that

based on the impact of the vehicles, skid marks on the road (which would likely be gone now but they should have pictures), and damage done to the vehicles.

But I think more and more this is looking like a case of corporate malfeasance, overzealous prosecution, and sloppy police work that put an innocent man in prison.

[Fumesucker]

58. Cars with ABS don't leave much if anything in the way of skid marks.. n/t

[skepticscott]

47. You could still tell

IF that were actually the case.

[Downtown Hound]

8. I'm curious...

How do they SUDDENLY find out that his brake lights were on? Did they not check before? Oh well, this is St Paul Police, the same Nazi dickheads that pissed all over the constitution during the RNC 2 years ago. Can't say I'm surprised.

[Mopar151]

9. Toyota has been stonewalling

"black box" data until recently.

[Downtown Hound]

10. Since when does Toyota investigate car crashes?

Last I checked, that was the job of the police.

[DJ13]

14. Toyota's black boxes use proprietary software

The police dont have access to that data unless Toyota unlocks it.

[Downtown Hound]

15. And the police never demanded to see it before charging the guy?

Essentially they ignored his many protestations about what the car really did and never even decided to make sure they had all the data available before shipping this guy off to prison?

I think there's a lot of guilty hands here. Toyota bears most of the blame but it doesn't sound to me like the police are entirely innocent either.

[Mopar151]

17. Has to do with the device to read the Event Data Recorder

Most manufacturers use open source code, and code readers are readily available, usually under $1000. Until recently, Toyota had one (1) modified laptop that could read these codes in North America. And they were quite reluctant to use it.

[Downtown Hound]

19. I'm not denying that Toyota is guilty as sin here

What I want to know is how does a guy even get charged with a homicide offense when a crucial piece of evidence isn't even examined? It's one thing to say that Toyota stonewalled, but I want to know exactly how hard the police fought to get that data to see to it that justice was done and not just send somebody to the can so all can feel better.

Would investigators not check the black box of an airplane crash because it was proprietary software? Imagine the outcry if that was the excuse they used as to why crucial evidence was ignored in a crash where people died.

[Mopar151]

31. Not if they were traffic cops

Sad to say.

[Downtown Hound]

32. Jesus Chraist, what kind of answer is that?

Traffic cops don't do forensics, and if they did, then what the hell?

That is all I have to say about that.

[wolfgangmo]

52. Where have you been.

This is the country that collectively yawned when network security experts nationwide (see bugtraq for more) were howling that the 2004 presidential election in OHIO could have been hacked by a dead cat.

And we also collectively yawned when the same experts were howling over the thought of electronic election machines with sealed code being in charge of any election.

We just don't care. What makes you think anyone would do anything but yawn about some "furiner" going to jail.

[Xithras]

36. This was a 1996 Toyota. They didn't have data recorders.

Toyota didn't begin putting data recorders into their cars until 1999.

[happyslug]

57. Most cars have had some sort of Data recorder since the early 1990s

Most ran like the Black Boxes on planes, if you drove 2 minutes (This is an estimate vary between cars) it would re-write over the old data and be wiped clean. In this case since the car was never ran again the data was still available. These early and primitive recorder devices were tied in with Air-bag development (To properly deploy the air bag several factors over a time period MUST come into play, but rarely more then five minutes of data).

For more see:
http://www.edn.com/article/CA529380.html

Now since 2000 more and more sophisticated recorders have become the norm, but in this type of accident, if the car was NOT operated afterward, enough data may exist to determine that the brakes were being applied when the cars hit each other. Remember this data has to do with airbags, and all cars after 1996 HAD to have airbags and thus these very primitive and limited data recorders.

Now, I was hearing stories in the 1990s that if you were in an accident AND you could move your car do so, for that would write over the data in such recorders even if you drive just a block or two (and thus deny the data to the police). Most people did NOT consider these primitive devices anything more then an aid to the Airbags, but stories made the grape vine that the data from such primitive devices were being used (Through no one ever cited a case in those rumors).

Thus the data that the lights were on do to the Brakes being on may exist and if that is the case it is new evidence that may be enough for a Judge to order a new trial. Please remember the burden of proof is on the DEFENDANT for he has been convicted, the District Attorney does NOT have to prove anything. This is a reversal of a normal trial, but that is the rule when the DA has already won a conviction and the Defendant finds new evidence that shows that the Defendant did NOT do the Crime. I mention this for the Data in those primitive recorders MAY not be enough to convince a judge that a New Trial is called for. The evidence has to be clear and convincing that a Jury would NOT have convicted the Defendant if the evidence had been presented to the jury. These early data recorders may not be enough, but we will see.

[Psephos]

60. informative post n/t

[MineralMan]

16. The driver is Hmong.

He was coming home from church with his family in the car. It's always been hard for me to figure that he wasn't driving safely.

The family in the other car was not Hmong.

[harun]

18. This is what I don't understand. Accidents happen, I think sending

this person to jail regardless of brakes or not was a mistake.

Like he would maliciously kill people with his car with his family inside.

[edwinmathews]

22. People go to jail all the time

for killing others with out malice . If Mr Lee did kill these 3 people with malice i would hope he would go to prison for much longer then 8 years . I would also point out that mr Lees car was inspected by multiple independent mechanics who found nothing wrong with it . This Toyota Camry was a 1996 model which is not part of the current recall nor has this year of Camry been connected to any throttle issues .

[harun]

26. What does putting him jail accomplish if he didn't do it on purpose?

Should have just made him pay reparations to the family.

No independent mechanics are going to understand a problem Toyota doesn't even understand.

[edwinmathews]

30. 1996 Toyota's are not involved in any recall

What $ figure would you put on the lives of 3 of your family members ?

[Schema Thing]

38. 8 years?

[harun]

49. Retribution is not to enrich the victim, it is to punish the offender in a more

positive way than simply locking them in a box.

[Omaha Steve]

53. Yes it was: The 1996 Camry was the subject of a recall because of "unintended acceleration"

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/runaway-toyotas-lawyer-stuck-throttle-found-car-imprisoned/story?id=10428540

Second page: The 1996 Camry was the subject of a recall because of "unintended acceleration" caused by a flaw in the cruise control ten years prior to the accident. The fact of the recall was not presented at the trial.

[Jefferson23]

59. Omaha Steve, thanks for all the correct up to date information. n/t

Hopefully this will help the guy .

[Hepburn]

42. Grossly negligent acts substitute for intent in all but specific intent crimes.

For example, if you are coming down the residential street where you live and you are drunk and driving 90 MPH, you may not have intended to harm anyone...however...you most likely will be charged with involuntary manslaughter and most likely will be convicted if you hit someone and a death results.

JMHO

[Raschel]

27. Toyota & Government can't find out what's causing the problems. You expect local people to know?

[Downtown Hound]

29. "I would also point out that mr Lees car was inspected by multiple independent mechanics who found

nothing wrong with it."

I guess none of them checked the black box or even thought to check the black box. Even if they couldn't access it, none of them realized that the black box MIGHT contain useful information? Who are these mechanics, and remind me never to take my car to them.

[MineralMan]

54. Yes. My point, exactly. Now, had his name been Johnson or

Lundegaard, he wouldn't be in jail right now. But, because he was Hmong and the other family was more typical, he went to jail. It was a terrible accident, and this guy, with his family in the car, coming home from church just happened to be driving a defective vehicle.

I was really, really pissed when this first happened. It's a classist or racist deal, all around.

[Jefferson23]

21. His car was a 1996, does the recall go back that far?

[Xithras]

39. No.

I suspect that they're simply trying to take advantage of the anti-Toyota hysteria now pervading America. Back in 1996, Toyotas didn't have data recorders, they used plain old throttle cables, only used computers for engine and emissions management, and they shared almost no components with those used on newer cars. There may have been a problem with his car, but it certainly isn't the same problem as the newer Toyotas.

It's still possible that his car did have a stuck throttle. Nearly every car model ever sold, from the Model T's on up, has had stuck throttle complaints at one time or another. Heck, my dad wrecked one of his Firebird's back in the 80's because the throttle cable jammed. It happens.

I'm a bit shocked that they didn't look into this after the original crash. When he claimed that the car wouldn't stop, a stuck throttle should have been the first thing they looked at.

[Jefferson23]

41. Thanks for the information, makes sense! n/t

[Omaha Steve]

44. Blaming the victim? READ THIS!

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/runaway-toyotas-lawyer-stuck-throttle-found-car-imprisoned/story?id=10428540

Hilliard says an inspection by insurance company engineers in 2006 reported similar evidence that "the vehicle was engaged in a braking maneuver at the time of the crash."

"We see a mechanical device that appears to stick open and therefore keeps the throttle from closing," attorney Bob Hilliard told ABCNews.com following an inspection of the car yesterday by experts hired for him.

[Downtown Hound]

48. Yes, please do read Omaha Steve's article, particularly this part:

"The 1996 Camry was the subject of a recall because of "unintended acceleration" caused by a flaw in the cruise control ten years prior to the accident. The fact of the recall was not presented at the trial."

[Omaha Steve]

43. NEW info: Lawyer: Stuck Throttle Found in Car of Imprisoned Toyota Driver (Possible Cruise Control )

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/runaway-toyotas-lawyer-stuck-throttle-found-car-imprisoned/story?id=10428540


'New Hope' for Man Convicted of Vehicular Homicide After Possible Cruise Control Fault Identified in 1996 Camry

84 comments
By JOSEPH RHEE, BRIAN ROSS and ANGELA HILL

The lawyer for a Toyota owner serving an eight-year prison sentence for vehicular homicide says a new inspection of his car found a possible fault in the car's cruise control that may have jammed the throttle into an open position.
Koua Fong Lee, in prison for vehicular homicide, says Camry's brakes didn't work

More Photos

"There is enough evidence now to support a new trial," said Robert Hilliard, the lawyer for Koua Fong Lee, 32, of St. Paul, Minnesota, who was convicted following a 2006 accident that killed three people when his car slammed into a vehicle at a stop sign.

"If the cruise control was working properly, it would allow the brakes to take over and the car to stop," said Hilliard.

At the trial, Lee insisted his Toyota, a 1996 Camry, suddenly sped out of control and that he was pumping the brakes up until the point of impact.

"We see a mechanical device that appears to stick open and therefore keeps the throttle from closing," attorney Bob Hilliard told ABCNews.com following an inspection of the car yesterday by experts hired for him.

FULL 2 page story at link.

[flvegan]

61. If vindicated, I hope his lawsuit against Toyota is VERY fruitful.

[Javaman]

65. What gets me is; it took 4 years to determine that the brake light was on.

:banghead:

One would think, if the defendant is claiming that he applied the brakes, a simple check at the start of all this would have proven him to be telling the truth.

Why did it take 4 frigging years to figure that out?

[mikeSchmuckabee]

67. That's messed up.

[Odin2005]

69. Hmong-Minnesotans ALWAYS get treated like shit!

About damn time!