Toyota Tundra Design Flaw - $4000 Repair Needed (at your expense)

[Omaha Steve]

Source: Auto Spies

Some 2007 through 2010 Tundra owners are being asked to replace the main components of their truck's Air Injection System, with costs in excess of $4,000.

Because of a design flaw, water can enter the truck's air injection system and destroy 2 small air induction pumps ($1100 each) as well as 2 emissions valves ($500 each). With labor, the total cost exceed $4,000.

Toyota is aware of this problem and has issued multiple TSB's. However, because this system is failing after the 3 year / 36k mile warranty ends, Toyota is not fixing this repair under warranty.

The air injection system is an emissions component designed to reduce cold-start emissions. It is not necessary for the core function of the truck, and is only needed for 1 or 2 minutes at vehicle start. Yet the failure of this system puts the Tundra into "limp mode," resulting in substantially less power until the check engine code is cleared.



Read more: http://www.autospies.com/news/Toyota-Tundra-Design-Flaw-4000-Repair-Needed-53718/

---

Read the full details on TundraHeadquarters.com

Read Article: http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2010/04/26/tundra-sequoia-air-injection-induction-pump/

[truthisfreedom]

1. How would you describe this dick manoevre? Gleeful discovery of profitable unplanned obsolescence?

How much profit is in it for the dealers???

[DainBramaged]

14. They tried to do the same thing with the rusting frames and got caught

Blaming the owners and then the salt on the roads until spare tires started to fall out of frames from the rust.

[petronius]

2. That's pretty lame. Is there a way to clear the code without it being fixed,

or is Toyota keeping that a secret?

[Psephos]

5. Clearing the code can be done simply by the owner with a $75 dollar tool

The problem isn't clearing the code. It's that the code will come back soon, after the engine's been started a couple of times.

Until the underlying problem is fixed, the computer will keep throwing the code endlessly.

[MindPilot]

3. Seems like they would be components covered by 5/50 emission warranty

Clearly emission-related; in fact that is the only reason the system exists. The emission warranty covers any and all emission components for at least 5 years or 50,000 miles and frequently more.

[Romulox]

4. The unhappy Tundra owners are probably just too old to work a warranty.

:hi:

[mahatmakanejeeves]

12. That was my first thought.

.

[liberal N proud]

6. So practices have not really changed

They are doing everything they can to avoid recalls. All so they can advertise some lame faux quality achievement.

[sendero]

7. Toyota...

... is really dingbatting a thousand here. A system that cost thousand s of dollars to reduce emissions for two minutes? I find that hard to believe.

[ixion]

8. Toyota put their name in the mud, and seems intent on keeping it there

it's sad they've chosen to follow the path of the US car companies. They'll ultimately pay the same price. It's too bad, because they have made excellent products for so many years.

I have a 2003 Camry, my second Toyota, and probably my last. If I buy a new car again it would be a Subaru or a Honda... maybe a Volkswagon. Toyota, though, has obviously traded quality for quick profits, something I can't really tolerate.

[DainBramaged]

11. "it's sad they've chosen to follow the path of the US car companies"

You really swallowed the kool aid didn't you? In the history of GM and Ford, they have never had to recall so many models at one time for so many different problems. GM had a gas tank issue in the EIGHTIES, Ford had BAD TIRES MADE BY FIRESTONE a JAPANESE COMPANY in the 90's.


Keep buying those japanese cars, they love you for it. Oh and by the way, Fuji Heavy Industries which makes Subaru, is affiliated with Toyota..........

[ixion]

13. My first several cars were all US made

and I stopped buying them because they're crap. No Kool-Aid® involved.

In my younger days I did all my own engine work, and I saw first hand how US car companies started turning out crap.

You may want to check what's in YOUR mug. ;)

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ixion]

16. lol.. piece of crap? My Toyotas have had far fewer breakdowns

than ANY US made car I've ever owned.

Oh, and you need factory tools to work on a US car these days, too.

Stay snarky, though. It's quite unimpressive, and does nothing to further your premise. :eyes:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

41. Oooh ooh you don't like what I write so you complain

babies, DU is full of them.......


Cya

[Romulox]

52. You'll find that Japanese car driving poster whining about H1Bs most days. nt

[DainBramaged]

55. Search is a wonderful thing............

:smoke: :hi:

[amandabeech]

70. What a lovely guy.

I have a 2003 Ford Taurus SES with all the bells and whistles, including the 201 hp engine. It is so sweet--I bought it gently used and I love it to death.

I live in DC and have friends from other countries who have been drinking the cool aid since birth.

Then I take them somewhere in my beauty. They can't believe how nice it is.

I took a Ukrainian (who will only buy a Mercedes) out on I-66. He couldn't believe what my lowly Ford could do. That engine did everything I asked of it and then some. When I told him the price, he was in shock.

Test drive the U.S. cars, folks. Things have changed in Detroit since the last Pinto met the auto recycler.

[Odin2005]

18. Get your head out of the 1980s.

Domestic cars haven't sucked since the mid 90s at the latest.

[ixion]

19. That's your opinion

Which I respect, of course.

Why is it not possible for people to state their opinions without snark? Can't we just have a debate without stupid insults? :shrug:

I'll tell you what. The next time I look for a new car (who knows when that will be) I will make sure and look at at least one US model.

Happy, pappy?

[Odin2005]

21. No, it's a fact.

[ixion]

23. whatever

:eyes:

[Xithras]

39. Domestic cars still sucked even during this past decade.

My wife has an 2004 Dodge Caravan. Biggest piece of garbage ever. Front end problems, emissions system problems, electrical problems. You name it, we've had it (and are still having some...there are problems that we have had multiple times, and are tired of fixing because the car is now out of warranty). Her previous car was a 1998 Ford Escort, which was in the shop only slightly less (we had to replace the entire transmission at 45,000 miles, and was constantly having engine issues, in addition to being a noisy rattletrap). My last car was a 1999 Dodge Durango, which had ball joint and suspension problems up the wazoo. I finally traded it in after receiving my FOURTH recall notice on the stupid thing.

Bought a 2006 Subaru Forester brand new off the lot when I decided to get rid of the Durango. In all that time, I've changed the fluids, replaced the brake pads, and have not had a single problem. I installed a PZEV package so it has practically zero pollution, gets great mileage, and is both smooth and quiet. No complaints whatsoever.

We will be replacing my wifes minivan at some point in the next few years. I don't know yet what we'll be buying, but the purchase will be based on quality, reliability, and durability...and not where it's built.

[hugo_from_TN]

45. I'd be cautious with Subaru with all the problems they've had with head gaskets.

Cost me a couple of grand to replace. Overall a great car, but I'm really disappointed with the head gasket problems over many makes and models. Google Subaru head gasket for details.

[Xithras]

46. I have the 2G 2.5L, and am aware of the problem.

So far, no problems. My mechanic, who has many years of Subaru experience, explained the root of the problem to me once and said that it's entirely avoidable if you keep the engine compartment clean and flush your cooling system every 25k miles. Slipping a plastic tray under the battery also helps to eliminate the problem.

IIRC, he said that the problem is caused by the location of the ground strap, and the position of the battery next to the radiator. Induction caused by the position of the positive battery cable slightly energizes the side of the radiator, which then forms a complete circuit via the ground cable from the battery to the block. If your battery cables are unmaintained and corroded, the problem gets much worse. The circuit through the coolant causes mild electrolysis, which acidifies the water itself. The acidified water eats at the head gasket material until it fails.

Subaru has completely fixed the problem on the current generation of cars, but they've never really addressed it on the older ones because they consider it a maintenance issue.

[hugo_from_TN]

48. Interesting. I haven't heard of that explanation.

I'll go look for a plastic tray for the battery.
Thanks.

[Xithras]

49. The plastic tray is just part of it.

Make sure you keep your battery cable terminals clean, and replace the cables if they get corroded. The more resistance you have in the circuit, the larger the induction problem is.

This isn't just a Subaru problem, and cars have had electrolysis related corrosion issues in the cooling system for nearly as long as cars have had batteries. Subaru simply had the misfortune of using head gaskets with a material that degraded a bit quicker in an acidic environment.

Subaru has always recommended that the cooling system be purged and flushed every 30k miles, but very few people actually do it. That's why they consider the acidification related failures to be a maintenance issue. Flushing the system keeps the acidification in check, and reduces damage to the head gasket.

Oh, and the replacement head gaskets almost never fail because they're made of a different material that is more resistant to the acidic water. The OEM gaskets were just a little more sensitive to it than most.

[CRF450]

61. Ball joints were a huge problem on the earlier Durango and Dakota's

Supposedly they've been fixed in the 04+ year models, I have an 04 Dakota with 98k miles now and so far I don't notice any problems with the ball joints. In fact the truck has given me very little problems, only work I've had to do to it was replace the shocks, and replace the rear calipers. All work was done myself so I havent had to spend any big money on it except for regular maintainence, $900 tires, $1500 stereo system, and another $400 for sound deadning to make the interior quieter than the best luxury car on the road.

[amandabeech]

71. Your first mistake was going into a Dodge dealership.

They've been starved for cash for so long that their products are way behind Ford's and GM's and have been for some time.

Chrysler has been known for its sheet metal and not its innards.

You shoulda asked around here before you bought.

[Romulox]

27. If you don't stand with workers, you're not a "progressive".

I'm more than a little surprise that you are one of the phonies, too. :eyes:

[ixion]

28. I stand for quality products

and calling me a phony for that is ludicrous. The "workers" had no problem whatsoever turning out crap for decades. If they were really concerned about quality, that would not have happened.

[Romulox]

30. Right, but that applies to YOU and what YOU do, too.

Why should I support *you* and your community in any way with my tax dollars, if we are nothing more than consumers? That's what makes you a phoney; you want to argue social darwinism (i.e. race to the bottom "free trade") in the marketplace, but sharing and caring in the public sphere? It's a bogus dichotomy, and your hang-dog response let's me know that you ultimately understand that.

If you cared about things like poverty and social justice, you'd support American Labor.

[ixion]

32. I've been running my own business for 8 years, and quality is my primary

responsibility.

But you're right: I don't support mediocrity. I don't think it's good for humanity, in the long run.

[Romulox]

33. I think you've unmasked yourself today. Very sad. nt

[ixion]

34. whatever

I always speak my mind. No mask necessary.

[Romulox]

37. Exactly. You get filed in the "whatever" pile.

:hi:

[Xithras]

40. I don't blame the workers for the quality problems with American cars.

I blame the engineers who designed the cars and parts, and the executives who oversee them, for putting profit and cost cutting above durability and quality.

The workers are simply building what they're told to build, how they're told to build it. The blame lays with the execs who think that "quality" is a secondary concern.

[Omaha Steve]

44. The poll released earlier this month shows Americans returning to USA made cars by choice

Good news for eveybody.

[Romulox]

50. I blame ignorant consumers, who apparently can't work google, despite being seated at a computer

Almost without exception, I find that people who drone on about "quality" know the least about cars, and are the least abreast of current events. :hi:

[DainBramaged]

42. So it's OK for you to call American cars crap

but I can't call ToYOYOtas crap.

Talk about snark........

DU, needs to get thicker skin....

[ixion]

53. fair enough

touche' :hi:

[dixiegrrrrl]

56. I do remember the blazing Ford Pintos...

So I quickly wandered around the Memory Hole and found these oldies but goodies from Ford's past:

Pintos:
Ford was aware of these problems, but according to a report from Mother Jones, the company decided it was cheaper to let the accidents happen and deal with the lawsuits than to fix the vehicles.
“This cost-benefit analysis argued that Ford should not make an $11-per-car improvement that would prevent 180 fiery deaths a year,” the magazine reported.

Then there were the Ford Crown Vics:
Cops Killed in Crown Vics
A similar problem was found more recently in Ford cars whose design, for a period of time, was inexorably associated with the police: the Crown Victoria. Police officers, state troopers, cab drivers and everyday Americans were killed when rear-end collisions resulted in gas tank explosions.

and the frayed seatbelt issues:
recall of 4.1 million 1970 and 1971 model year Fords. Shoulder harnesses of seat belts in Ford, Lincoln and Mercury cars frayed, causing them to detach from the metal parts that held them to seat frames, according to Automotive.com.

Plus:Ignition fires in Fords
Ignition switch fires were reported in a number of Ford models, leading to the recall of about 8.6 million cars including the Escort, Mustang, Thunderbird, Bronco, Cougar, Crown Victoria, Lincoln Town Car and top-selling F-Series trucks in 1996.

and cruise controls caught fire in Fords:
cruise control switches in 1993 to 2004 Lincoln and Mercury SUVs, pickups, cars and vans were recalled in 2008 due to a risk of catching fire.

Perhaps a bicycle?

[EnviroBat]

20. After one year of ownership I can honestly tell you that

my little Subaru has been the best car I've owned to date. I've owned many vehicles over the years, and I've never been happier with the way a vehicle performs and the "initial quality" of it. I used to be terrified to drive in winter after I was in a nasty accident a few years ago. My AWD Subaru Impreza WRX has been one of the most stable vehicles in the snow I've ever had the pleasure to drive. I was floored when we were in New England recently how many Soobs were on the road. They are very commonplace up there. I can understand why. Super fun to drive too!

[Romulox]

26. Thanks for standing with American workers.

:eyes:

[ixion]

29. When American Workers produce quality products, I happily support them

when they produce garbage, I do not. My support is not uncondtional.

[Romulox]

31. That double edged sword cuts both ways. You're not a worker who can be replaced for cheaper?

:eyes:

[ixion]

35. Yeah, I've had to deal with that for years

and I have not seen auto-workers -- or 'labor' jumping to my defense in the slightest.

[Romulox]

36. So, every man for himself, and to hell with the hindmost!

You "liberal", you. :puke:

[ixion]

38. So what are you saying:

that I should aid labor even though they don't help me?

Yeah, that sure is 'liberal' :eyes:

Look, just because we don't agree on a particular issue, that doesn't mean either one of us is a) a bad person; or b) a troll.

So if you want to have a rational discussion about this, I'm all for it. If you're going to do nothing but call me names, then I don't really see a reason to continue the debate.

[Romulox]

51. Sorry, I have no respect for anti-labor libertarian types (don't you folk have your own boards?)

:hi:

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

43. These people would CHEER if GM was swallowed up in a sinkhole

not realizing how many hundreds of thousands of workers would lose their jobs and what the ripple effect on the economy would be.


ALL THEY CARE ABOUT is themselves, no one else.

Shortsighted, it's why the Pukes clean our clocks.

[ixion]

54. *sigh* no, you're wrong

If GM makes good products, I applaud them.

[Omaha Steve]

59. Chevy has the best new car warranty period

5 year 100,000 miles.

And Toyota sure doesn't care about their customers on this posted item.

[ixion]

63. A warranty is certainly a good thing...

but if the car breaks down often, that is not.

Not saying it will, but they've been known for that in the past.

[elleng]

9. Forget the warranty.

Sue them for failure to provide a product suitable to do what reasonably expected to do. Should be class actions on this one, if Toyo forces the issue.

[amandabeech]

72. Yeah, I'm surprised that no one has lined something up yet.

Toyota is going to support the U.S. defense bar for some time.

[DainBramaged]

10. Toyota and the love affair with your wallet

it's for life................

Ah yes, but the lemmings will be lining up to buy more of this crap with smiles on their faces because Toyota is getting a bum rap from the media........

[Odin2005]

17. More disgusting Toyota BS!

[Skink]

24. Maybe we can grecoup our huge taxpayer subsidies for winning the Tundra plant.

[newscott]

47. Didn't they pull the same stunt with their engines a few years ago?

Oil turned to sludge in crank case and they blamed driver error instead of the design flaw?

[CRF450]

60. The only way I know sludge can build up is if people are going too long on oil changes

[newscott]

62. Back in the early 2000s there were a lot complaints

about Toyota engines having sludgy or gelled up oil. Toyota swore up and down at the time that it was "driver error". It was one of the reasons I decided not to buy a Toyota no matter how good the cars are. Their service seemed suspect.

[Omaha Steve]

64. Toyota reverses position on sludge, read the news release dated 2/8/02.

http://www.yotarepair.com/Sludge_Zone.html

Toyota reverses position on sludge, read the news release dated 2/8/02.

Read the whole article.

Automotive News article 4/3/02 & 2/8/02

Did Toyota do the right thing.

This page and section started off somewhere in Jan. 01 when I was seeing and getting an increasing number of engines that had severe sludge build up internally. At that time all the blame was being placed on the owner with the reasoning that they were not taking care of the engine as Toyota suggested. I felt that with the shear number of vehicles affected that something else was at the root cause. In February 02 Toyota finally acknowledged the condition, without taking real blame for any engineering problems, and started to correct the affected engines. They had some conditions that had to be met but their Special Policy Adjustment was a good start. Now this week, April 3, 02, they finally showed their true corporate stance on the unfortunate problem. They have broadened the scope of the coverage, within the years and models affected, and they are due a well earned thumbs up for this effort to stand behind what I still believe is the best product on the market.

This seems affect mostly Avalon, Camry, Sienna, Highlander, Celica and most Lexus 300/RX series models with the model years after 1997 thru 2001. Toyota made a change in the engine design that actually attributed to the problem.

My biggest question is do I qualify? Here are the guidelines Toyota is using to establish the engines that are prone to having the sludge (gel) condition:

Camry 4 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 7/01

Camry 6 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 8/02

Solara 4 cyl. Produced 6/98 - 5/01

Solara 6 cyl. Produced 6/98 - 8/02

Sienna 6 cyl. Produced 7/97 - 6/02

Avalon 6 cyl. Produced 7/96 - 6/02

Celica 4 cyl. Produced 8/96 - 4/99

Highlander 6 cyl. Produced 11/00 - 8/02

If you look at the vehicle identification label on the left door or left door post you can find the date of manufacutre. It normally is one of the first things you can see on the upper left of the label (example 7/98 means it was made July, 1998).

The actual cause of the problem is an inability of the engine's crankcase ventilation system (PCV) to move the normal gases from the engine. When these gases stay longer in an hot engine it allows deposits to form on the metal parts of the engine. When enough deposits are present "Sludge" is formed. In my opinion the reduced flow of the PCV is related to the vehicle emissions. This presents a problem since to correct it may require Toyota to recertify the engines, come up with a solution acceptable to the EPA and then they still have to repair or assist in repairing the affected engines. The costs would be staggering but ignoring the problem, in so many of their best selling vehicles, may be worse in the long run. In the various articles I've listed below, if you want, you will learn more about the cause an effect.

The following topics are links to gather more information about what causes the condition. At this point this is for information only, if you have the condition please contact your local Toyota dealer.

I must again inform you that this site is in no way associated with Toyota Motor Company and any opinions are based on my 30 years of experience and knowledge.


Article from the AutoChannel.com

The Engine Oil Bible

My opinion.

[CRF450]

66. So the crankcase couldn't get enough ventilation on those engines...

Thanks for the info.

[Omaha Steve]

65. Class Action Suit Brings Relief to 3.5 Million Toyota, Lexus Owners

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html

By Joe Benton
ConsumerAffairs.com

January 8, 2007

Consumers saddled with sludge-clogged Toyota engines may soon get some help from the Japanese auto giant under the terms of a class-action lawsuit settlement that covers roughly 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles damaged by engine oil sludge.

An engine gummed up with oil sludge can cost thousands of dollars to repair and in many cases must be replaced. The class action settlement could potentially cost the automaker hundreds of millions of dollars.

The agreement will allow consumers whose claims have been denied by Toyota to submit those claims to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.

The lawsuit, filed in a Louisiana district court, could receive final approval by the middle of February. Details of the settlement are being mailed to 7.5 million current and previous Toyota and Lexus owners.

The agreement provides owners of sludge-damaged Toyotas eight years plus 120 days from the original purchase date to file a complaint.

Toyota consumers who have repaired their sludge-damaged engines may be able to recover their costs. The car only needs to show evidence of oil sludge damage.

Read more: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html#ixzz0mM34mLpA


FULL story at link.

[Zephie]

57. My husband's Rav4 had the same issue

We had it taken care of awhile ago, wish I had known about it then. Wonder when they'll announce it for that model as well? I'll never buy a Toyota again.

[Tesha]

58. Does this fact have any bearing on the problem?

From one of your linked sites:

How Many Tundras Have This Problem?

We have no data to indicate the size and scope of this issue. However, based
on the number of complaints on the TundraSolutions.com website, similar
complaints on TundraTalk, complaints we’ve heard, and a brief survey of some
dealership personel we speak with frequently, it seems this problem is fairly rare.
None the less, the incredible potential expense is cause for concern.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Or shall we just burn Toyota at the stake right now?

Tesha

[Midwestern Democrat]

67. I've never understood why anyone would buy a Japanse truck anyway.

I don't know a single tradesman or contractor who owns one.

[Romulox]

68. There was a hilarious DUer (banned now, I think) who claimed he *needed* a Toyota FJ

"because he lives nearly 3 miles from a paved road."



:rofl:

[amandabeech]

73. I got your dirt road for ya right up in Oceana County.

I used to take them in my Opel Kadett, which was a German GM coke can with wheels.

I was a 16 year old girl, and no one thought anything about it.

This guy needed a truck to do gravel?