Vietnam celebrates 35th anniversary of war's end

[Scurrilous]

Source: Associated Press

<snip>

"Communist Vietnam marked the 35th anniversary of the end of its war Friday with a dramatic re-enactment of the day North Vietnamese tanks smashed through the gates of the former Presidential Palace and ousted the U.S.-backed South Vietnam government.

The celebration took place as signs of the emerging market economy are everywhere in the city once known as Saigon and communist banners now compete with corporate logos.

A crowd of 50,000, many waving red and gold communist flags, lined the parade route, which was adorned with a massive poster of Ho Chi Minh, the father of Vietnam's revolution."

<snip>

"The fall of Saigon marked the official end of the Vietnam War and the decade-long U.S. campaign against communism in Southeast Asia. The conflict claimed some 58,000 American lives and an estimated 3 million Vietnamese."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100430/ap_on_re_as/as_vietnam_war_anniversary

[clixtox]

1. "Communists" are impossible to find these days in Vietnam!

Articles like this are quite misleading about the economic system in Vietnam. The government is trying mightily to "equitize" those corporations they still control.

The war wasn't against "communism", that was propaganda for the naive. We didn't give a damn about saving the Vietnamese from "communism". what a joke! The war was about preserving colonialism and continuing the exploitation of the vast resources of Vietnam and it's people.

"Reunification Day", today, and May Day tomorrow, mean this is a four day weekend, that's a cause for celebrating and a reason for big shows in the parks broadcast live on TV. Fireworks tonight are another big deal here in Saigon(HCMC), there will be hundreds of thousands along the Saigon River to see that display this evening.

[MellowDem]

23. It was about Communism...

namely the idea of containment. It wasn't about colonialism or continuing to have the "vast" resources of Vietnam. It was pretty much another Korea, except this time the war was much longer, too long for the American public to support. But the idea was the same.

What were the vast resources that America was recieving from Vietnam?

Luckily, Vietnam didn't end up with a crazy ass dictator like North Korea did, and they have what is basically a market economy.

[clixtox]

46. Your opinion mirrors the carefully cultivated "conventional wisdom"...

Try reading this chapter from Howard Zinn's, "PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES". <http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinnimvivi18.html>.

The created fear of "communism" in the 1950s and 1960s is precisely the same phenomena as the created fear of Iran, North Korea, Venezuela and "terrorism" are today.

A convenient creation to whip up fear in the sheeple.

The USA doesn't have enemies in the conventional sense, we have a lot of pissed off victims around the world who aren't taking it anymore without retaliating however they can.

Our armed forces are the poorly paid, disrespected in practice, mercenaries of the uber-rich. The shock troops of disaster who go in when the economic hit men like John Perkins are rebuffed and the CIA are ineffective in regime-change.

General Smedley Butler, <http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=smedley+butler&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8>, was speaking from personal experience when he stated the "war is a racket"!

It was then and it continues to be a racket today!

[MellowDem]

58. The fear was all too real...

which is part of the problem. It was an irrational fear, a bad policy, but it wasn't for Vietnam's resources.

[WinkyDink]

57. Naive.

[MellowDem]

59. Paranoid.

[WinkyDink]

80. "Paranoid" about what? That "it was about Communism"? Follow the thread, please.

[MellowDem]

85. Paranoid that it was about something else....

the only argument I've seen put forth so far is that it was really about keeping Vietnam's resources at the time. What resources? What Vietnam resources were so precioius to the US that they invaded? Not realistic or backed by any evidence or explanation of what those "resources" were. Meanwhile, the fear of Communism and the theory of containment were very real things that had precedent in other US actions and wars around the world.

[era veteran]

2. 30 April 1975 Not a celebration for American Soldiers

This is what I did that sorry ass fucking day: ( This is from an older posting) Terrible times & my emotions may never come to grips with this war. On 30 April 1975 I was in a cocktail meeting with all the NCO's at our Kaserne , The Rock, in W Germany. The Sergeant Major of the Army was the speaker. He was there to prep us for a visit by President Ford. After the talk and during the drinking part the TV at the bar turned on. Pictures of that helicopter on our embassy roof flooded the room. All E-6's and above had been to Vietnam at least once. All emotions flooded that room. Older men than me crying and some throwing their medals at the TV. A memory which will never leave. The anti-war demonstrations certainly did have an effect on ending the war but these would not have happened if their had not been a draft. Universal Draft Now Peace, Richard

[Bigmack]

6. Funny.... I was glad it was finally over.....

I knew all our suffering and all our dead brothers were wasted long before the final end, so the futility of the US invasion and occupation wasn't a new idea to me.

I felt terrible that all the reprisals would start, and ashamed that we had not let that poor country determine its own destiny in the first place.

You think the draft would change things? No draft now, and the Empire goes on... and on.

[No Elephants]

47. era veteran is correct. If there had been no draft during the Vietnam Era,

you would not have had a fraction of the anti-war demonstrations and other public and media pressure that finally got politicians to end that futile mess, even though the U.S.A. had not achieved the kind of decisive "victory" Americans had come to expect in a war.

Look at the difference between Vietnam and Iraq. Vietnam was on TV screens daily, whether it was an anti-war demonstration or a peace march or some battle in Vietnam. War news began every national news broadcast daily and nightly. Eventually, the pressure at home to end the war caused our withdrawal, not anything that happened on the battlefield or in world politics.

Contradistinctively, the Iraq War barely gets news coverage. People don't think of it on a daily basis unless they are in or around military or have some other reason to have it in the forefront of their lives.

[EFerrari]

12. That was a terrible day for a lot of reasons.

And I agree about a Universal Draft. At the time I thought it was horrible but from this distance, I was wrong.

[The Wizard]

3. The United States got its just desserts

the day the Vietnamese ended the occupation. Democracy is not imposed at gunpoint. Did we learn from that fiasco? Several years ago a president from Texas took office under very unusual circumstances and then started a war predicated on lies.............
Plain and simple, we were wrong.
Yesterday was the 42nd anniversary of my liberation from the bonds of coerced military service.

[era veteran]

4. 58,000 dead Americans for nothing

Universal, NO EXEMPTION, draft now.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. So we can have another 58,000 dead for nothing?

The logic here escapes me.

[era veteran]

7. Would we go to war so recklessly if every bodies son had participated?

The chicken hawk draft dodgers who started this shit were exempted. Fucking war was a lark to bush & co. That is my logic.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. The generation that started the vietnam war served in WWII.

They had no problem committing us to a stupid war, and no shortage of bodies to feed into the grinder. So a theory that our leaders would be more reserved in their militaristic bullshit seems not to be proven by the facts at hand.

In the history of the draft, certainly in our country and in most others as well, the well connected never had to serve, and if they did serve they were always able to opt out of harm's way. The draft enables war. It always has and it always will. There are no historical examples of a draft preventing war.

[The Wizard]

9. But they were told we had to fight them

over there so as to not fight them here. Ho Chi Minh was a ruthless dictator. We were bringing them democracy. The road to empire is paved with failed republics.

[era veteran]

13. Of course my argument is based on no exemptions, which you evade

Again no exemptions

[Warren Stupidity]

15. I didn't evade it.

I pointed out that 'no exemptions' is also an a-historical fantasy.

[era veteran]

16. Never been tried

Regardless, it was a fucked up war, and I'm glad it didn't last another day. Rich boys did not go.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. Sure it has been tried - WWII for example.

Exemptions were rare as they could be, but if you were connected you got to avoid actual combat. See Ronald Reagan's army career.

[Thothmes]

45. Who was Reagan connected with

he failed the physical for overseas deployment.

[Warren Stupidity]

66. no shit.

[No Elephants]

48. Reagan's military career? Anything specific, or are you referring to all 30 days of it?

Did he have to act in an Army film where the lighting was especially bad or something?

Oh! The humanity!

[Thothmes]

75. Longer than 30 days

He enlisted in the Army Reserve in Apr 1937. His unit was called up for active duty in Apr 1942. He was npq for overseas deployment and wound up in a stateside Army Airforce film unit. He was discharged in December 1945.

[Stella_Artois]

30. You are wrong

Even with a universal draft rich boys would be more likely to obtain the postings of their choice. Many would use that to make sure they are never within a thousand miles of danger.

[era veteran]

35. You all heard about laws? The military does not care a shit about a rich

boy. They care about external influence applied by power , which is patently unethical and should have specific laws to prohibit this. I think this culture could be changed, obviously you do not. The military despises connected turds getting preferential treatment. The military is a warrior culture by definition. Universal draft is not completely what I advocate. Some other kind of public works program can be established for those not wanting the military option. My idea of a culture change here, a pollyanna dream? or a way to grow our republic?

[Warren Stupidity]

40. Since you asked: Pollyanna dream.

As I've tried to point out over and over, what you are advocating is contrary to the historical experience. That would make it a 'pollyanna dream'.

Your grand dream is and always has been nothing more than press gangs. In our modern age conscription fed two wars of incomprehensible carnage, and in this late and corrupt phase of our dwindling republic, imagining that conscription would be anything other than a fresh source of meat for the war machine is beyond foolishness.

[era veteran]

44. Foolishness your pessimistic ass

Try to grow. Press gangs, bullshit. Write laws and enforce them, EOM

[No Elephants]

50. I see your point about Vietnam, but when has "write laws and enforce them" ever worked?

[era veteran]

74. We are not a completely lawless land. We have lots of crooks and unethical

people but most people follow the law. If not lets fucking start a shooting class war right now. I will still keep trying to change things. The template is there already. " the laws worked when me and a couple of million young Americans were called into service.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. I'm pessimistic and you are naive.

The historical record completely justifies my pessimism and refutes your naivety.

[era veteran]

73. You probably meant reflects instead of refutes

You draft citizens by law and use them rich and poor. Maybe Constitutional Amendment would be the way to go. Stick that naivety in your can't be done hole. A Constitutional Republic was a culture change too but real Americans rose to the task which I think the ethical core of the country would support. What argument could they use to vote against this? In time of need the collective country rises together. We could just end up with a Sardaukar class. Asshole rich draft dodgers were looked down on by the country in WW2. Maybe not in YOUR life or YOUR culture is there the profound sense of honor and the need to preserve said honor but there is in mine. Go ahead and give up. I have been an active movement participant for over 39 years and I will keep on proposing this. I think campaign finance reform extremely important to preserving the Republic too. Got a bitchy pessimistic position on this as well? The slur of naivety is not appreciated I can usually spot a con on the first note. I think we have finished.

[awoke_in_2003]

37. "the well connected never had to serve"

They were called "$300 Men" during the Civil War, as $300 bought your way out of participating.

[Grins]

10. But...but...but it was Kennedy....!

Book Review: VALLEY OF DEATH, The Tragedy at Dien Bien Phu That Led America Into the Vietnam War

"The weak government of French Prime Minister Joseph Laniel (1953 to 1954) did nothing to avert the (battle of Dien Bien Phu) disaster and began to realize that it could be an excuse to wind up an unpopular war. The British government -- led in practice by Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden -- wanted a detente with Moscow and Beijing and saw no reason why France, like Britain, should not give up its Asian empire. But U.S. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles and Adm. Arthur Radford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wanted an allied confrontation with China over Indochina, almost surely involving the use of atomic weapons, which Dulles in fact offered to Laniel during the crisis.

"Morgan shows in some detail how British and French opposition, congressional reluctance and President Dwight Eisenhower's refusal to go it alone stopped Dulles's and Radford's plans -- but Dulles still refused to sign the Geneva agreements because they gave legitimacy to yet another new communist government, that of Ho Chi Minh. Having spent months trying to arrange a coalition of Asian and Western powers to enter the war, Dulles had to be content with forming the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization after it was over -- and with using American manpower and money to try to build non-communist bastions in South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, with decidedly mixed results. Morgan's book will be enjoyed by students of military history and will be useful to anyone curious about the bizarre atmosphere of the early, frenzied years of the Cold War."


I'll go a step further. The political side of this is that shortly after China fell to Mao Zedong, Reich-wing crackpot Henry Luce ran a cover story on Time magazine titled, "Who lost China?" seeking, like Fox News, to pin one on Truman and the democrats. It was effective and scared future politicians for decades; add in McCarthy (another Repuke) and you have a governing philosophy. Fast forward to another democrat in the White House, one advised by a sitting Republican President and famous General to not to go to Vietnam, and you see its power exerted again; their fear was the next headline: "Who lost Vietnam?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/02/AR2010040201319.html

[David__77]

11. Congratulations to the people of Vietnam.

Reunified and independent.

[proteus_lives]

14. Dictatorship and one-party rule feels so good.

:eyes:

[David__77]

19. The people of Vietnam made their historical choice.

The vast majority of the people in southern Vietnam supported the National Liberation Front and opposed the US occupation. There may only be one party, like many countries, but it is definitely progressive compared with the US-installed puppets that were deposed. And, it was the choice of the people, young and old, armed and unarmed. Anyone that doubts that for a second is deluded.

[proteus_lives]

21. Yeah, all the people's choice.....

:eyes:

I don't pretend to think that the U.S. offered anything better but Hanoi lined-up a lot of people against the wall 1975-after.

Don't delude yourself into thinking that that it was all peace and flowers after the war. The boat people prove that wrong or ask a Hmong about it.

Just to clarify, do you support dictatorships?

[Warren Stupidity]

22. Bullshit. There was no blood bath after the war ended.

That is a bunch of rightwing hooey.

"Hanoi lined-up a lot of people against the wall 1975-after." - wrong.

[proteus_lives]

24. Of course Comrade Stupidity.

There were no re-education camps, no executions, no disappearances, no banning of political parties or restriction of freedoms.

The millions that fled the country did so because they wanted a vacation! But wait! Why would anyone want a vacation from the worker's paradise? :eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

29. There were no mass executions. No blood bath.

You made a specific assertion of fact, and that assertion was false. Your attempt to evade that mistake by surrounding it with other assertions is dishonest. There was no blood bath, that is a rightwing myth.

I have no great love for authoritarian marxist-leninist regimes, but that does not excuse fabricating crimes this particular regime did not commit. We, on the other hand, by interfering violently in Vietnam's affairs for 20 years, are responsible for at least one million dead there. So if you would like to find a blood bath in Vietnam, and if you would like turn your gaze and your accusations on those responsible, might I suggest a mirror?

[proteus_lives]

33. Show me where I said....

Mass or blood baths.

A lot of people died, that's a fact. I never said it was the Killing Fields.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. " Hanoi lined-up a lot of people against the wall 1975-after"

Now you are in full retreat feigning innocence. "Who me, I never said 'blood bath'". I've had enough of this 'discussion'. We committed the blood bath. We lost a war we had no business fighting. Get over it.

[proteus_lives]

42. Who is retreating?

Hanoi did kill people after the war was over.

I never claimed bloodbaths. Deal with it and I'm sorry I'm breaking your rosy view of the Hanoi government.

"We lost a war we had no business fighting. Get over it."

Never had anything to get over. I just hate people who ignore the full story. People like you only like one side but I've always found it educational to examine the actions and motivations of all sides of a conflict. Stop being so narrow, you'll learn more.

[Warren Stupidity]

65. So you agree that there were no mass executions.

That there was no bloodbath, that the government of Vietnam did not commit such atrocities after the fall of the Saigon regime. Fine. I'm glad you agree with me on this point. In the future, when you make statements like you did, you might want to clarify that when you say a government lined people up against the wall and shot them, you are in no way inferring that a bloodbath or mass execution or similar atrocity was involved. That would avoid a lot of misunderstandings.

[tabasco]

39. "lined-up a lot of people against the wall"

What exactly did you mean with that statement, if not mass killings?

I don't have a dog in the fight. I just hate liars.

[proteus_lives]

41. And I hate assumptions.

[David__77]

25. Well...

As for dictatorship versus democracy, I think there has not been and cannot be one without the other. In the US, we exercise dictatorship over 2,000,000 people in the penal system, for instance. Some cities exercise dictatorship over youth just appearing in public in groups of more than two via "anti-gang ordinances." The existence of the US senate and electoral college is profoundly anti-democratic and violates "one person, one vote." The US laws are geared toward perpetuating duopolistic political system that is hardly textbook democracy.

In Vietnam, or China or Cuba or Laos for that matter, there is one party in charge legally (though there are in fact other "parties" in China without power). There are factions competing within them. There are multiple candidates at the local levels; certainly, the sphere of permissible political activity is more narrow than in the US. That is a defect from my perspective. But I don't see it as fundamentally different than the US maintaining its political character through less-than-democratic means. It's a question of degrees in my opinion. Chile was a western-style democracy in 1973, but it didn't stop a fascist coup from happening when the boundaries were tested. Same with Honduras last year. And I certainly believe that there have been extra-legal activities within the US state agencies against FDR, JFK, and others, if not executing a "hard coup," certainly enacting slow motion "soft coups" to ensure the maintenance of the policies supported by the powers that be.

And yes, there are people that suffered after reunification of Vietnam - very true. Many more people were happy the war was over and the US was kicked defeated, however. Some tribes that were hired as US mercenaries suffered. A lot of the rich and civil servants in the old puppet government suffered as well, with "reeduction camps." All true. After wars like that, there's always a settling of accounts.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. I remember being flabbergated that the US actually LOST a war.

And frankly, them being brought down a notch pleased me, in addition to the war being over.

Oh, and before you start throwing a hissy fit, I remind you I am not a US citizen or resident.

[No Elephants]

51. Yet, you post on a board for members of the U.S. Democratic Party.

[Book Lover]

63. Indeed, how dare CPD enter into our hallowed halls and discuss

matter of global importance with us. Why, it's almost like he's a dirty foreigner!

[proteus_lives]

34. Moral relativism is a wonderful thing.

"Some tribes that were hired as US mercenaries suffered. A lot of the rich and civil servants in the old puppet government suffered as well, with "reeducation camps." All true. After wars like that, there's always a settling of accounts."

You imply that these people deserved their fates with your framing.

You think they were the only ones? You think no innocents suffered? Where all the boat people rich or U.S. mercs?

"Many more people were happy the war was over and the US was kicked defeated, however"

Would been nice if they had a choice. But the North was big on offering people choices.

[David__77]

36. I meant to imply no such thing.

All kinds of people suffered. I am no fan of the Vietnamese government. It acted as a proxy for Russian imperialism in invading, occupying and colonizing Cambodia after 1979 - a terrible crime. It practiced discrimination against its Chinese and Khmer minority populations which were considered politically suspect. I am sure many innocent people suffered, and many "guilty" ones were mistreated. I see no contradiction between acknowledging these things and congratulating the Vietnamese people on the anniversary of their victory over the US and its puppet government.

[proteus_lives]

43. It's ok to congratulate the Hanoi government.

But the 1975 victory wasn't the victory of the entire Vietnamese people. Many refer to it as "Black April".

[No Elephants]

52. One can congratulate the Vietnamese people that they are not being napalmed.

Bush's victory was not a victory for the entire American people, either, but at least no one was torching my city and killing my parents.

[proteus_lives]

67. Or marching into a village and shooting all the males if they refused to fight.

Like the NVA and VC did.

[clixtox]

79. Your representatives, the USA 's armed forces marched into villages...

and killed all of the men, women and children they could find, as in My Lai. The livestock were also killed and then we burned all of the homes and other structures. Done for you and me!

That's us, the USA, who were engaged in mass murder. The "good guys"!

I hadn't heard about the "NVA" or the NLF shooting any males if they refused to fight, have you a link to a credible source for that assertion?

[proteus_lives]

84. Let's start with this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hu%E1%BA%BF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dak_Son_Massacre

http://www.vnafmamn.com/VNWar_atrocities.html

[No Elephants]

54. Accusing someone of moral relativism is very easy, but what is your point for the real world?

That the Vietnamese did not end up with a situation that is ideal in your mind?

As we sit here today, we don't know that our own Presidential elections are bulletproof. And that assumes that a choice between two people in a country this large is really meaningful, anyway. Or that our system really reflects the will of the people, as opposed to the will of a few powerful folk in the Republican Party and a few powerful folk in the Democratic Party.

Moral relativism may not be ideal, but neither is being out of reality.

I was very miserable about government during 8 years of Dummya, but having someone bombing and torching my village would not have made anything better for me. Thanks, anyway.

[No Elephants]

49. "I don't pretend to think that the U.S. offered anything better." Bingo.

We lost and maimed many Americans (including mentally), killed and maimed many Vietnamese and destroyed many villages, without offering anything better.

Just to clarify, does that mean you support dictatorship? Or senseless occupations?

Come on, now.

[proteus_lives]

70. And the NVA and VC did too.

What did they offer besides the home-grown version of what we were doing?

I don't support either. But I'm not going to white-wash the other side either.

[WinkyDink]

60. Do you have a link to your claim about "against the wall"? And do you not know who was the INVADER?

WE WERE, JUST LIKE WE ARE NOW IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

[proteus_lives]

68. Google Black April and the Hanoi Government's action after the fall.

Yes we were unwelcome in the country but that doesn't excuse the actions of others.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. Oh wait - so you are back to your claim of a blood bath and mass executions?

That is odd, up thread you denied that was your intention.

The sources for this alleged bloodbath are specious. There is no credible documentation of mass executions conducted by the Vietnamese government after the fall of the Saigon regime.

On the other hand, they did put a stop to the mess in Cambodia, which mess we created, and the perpetrators of said carnage, the remnants of the Pol Pot regime, we then backed for the next 10-15 years against the Vietnam supported government of Cambodia, the one that wasn't killing people by the millions.

[proteus_lives]

76. Jesus, your name is apt.

Did you even read my post?

I know, I know. You send hugs and kisses to the Hanoi regime. You want to ignore their sins and twist what I'm saying. Fine.

I acknowledge US sins, too bad you're not honest enough to do the same about the Vietnamese.

[era veteran]

78. Perhaps the poster, Mr. Stupidity, should read Decent Interval by Frank Snepp

He was the chief CIA analyst at the fall of Saigon. Find the fuck out truly to the people we left behind. There were a lot of killings after the war. If anyone thinks Frank was a CIA tool they don't understand the word honor. 1977: Decent Interval: An Insider's Account of Saigon's Indecent End Told by the Cia's Chief Strategy Analyst in Vietnam by Frank Snepp, Gloria Emerson

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. Hey, didn't I see you in Rodney Dangerfield's movie "Back to School"?

You taught History.

[proteus_lives]

32. I wish I was as funny as Sam Kinison.

I'm just a regular fellow who thinks a shitty situation and outcome is just that. Be created by Americans or Vietnamese.

[Xithras]

81. Vietnam is not a dictatorship. Never was.

One of the truly amazing things about Vietnam is that they seem to have escaped the dictatorships and tyrannical rule that has plagued so many other communist nations. There is some conjecture that things may have gone differently if Ho Chi Minh had lived, but he died before the war ended, and dedicated his final days toward ensuring that future leaders would be elected. Since then, Vietnam's leadership has changed several times as the people elect, and later reject, different governments.

I'm not saying that Vietnam is any sort of ideal nation, and its human rights record is terrible, but it's not a dictatorship.

[kgnu_fan]

82. Vietnam is a beautiful country with incredible artistic culture

[Lagomorph]

18. I was just glad it was over.

That was back when the Soviets were exporting revolution, in the form of AK-47's and RPG's, all over the planet.

That was just fine with the Left, but the Right took exception. Stalin & Mao's examples of Communist Revolution were frightful ones and it was truly bewildering why anyone would endorse it. People were risking their lives to get out of those countries and their tales of horror were widely published.

It was a different time, when stories dribbled out of the press, rather than the flood of information we have today. Nobody knew anything until it showed up on the evening news or in the daily newspaper, frequently based on government press releases.

[No Elephants]

55. I think you may be thinking of the far left of the 1930s, not rank and file Democrats of tthe

1950s and 1960s. I don't they they were just fine with what Soviets were doing. Hell, I don't think even Roosevelt was.

[New Dawn]

20. K&R

[tuckessee]

28. Isn't this the war where the Americans claim to have "won" every "battle"? n/t

[Lagomorph]

31. In context....

Vietnam didn't "reunify" until the US withdrew their combat troops. There was still an American presence in the country, due to our logistic support, however no direct combat units were present. As long as we stayed, they failed to attain their goals, which was interpreted by those whose task it was to foil them as a victory.

[No Elephants]

56. "The Americans?" Aren't you American? Either way, do you have a point,?

[madokie]

53. All I want to do is apologize to the Vietnamese people for the atrocities

committed at the hands of otherwise innocent guys like me being led by guys like we had leading us. I committed no atrocities with my hands but my presence there supported many. My Lai massacre comes to mind. We have the same things going on in the middle east right now. The difference is that the ones who put us there didn't go to Vietnam, 'chickenhawks we call them,' so they had no first hand knowledge of what war is, does. To people, animals and country. 40 years later I still feel the weight of the Vietnam war on my shoulders.

[No Elephants]

61. Time to forgive yourself, friend. Long past time, in fact. Remember the lesson, but let go of any

guilt or pain. Seriously, what did you know then? How mature were you then? And what realistic choices did you have?

I am glad you came home, in all possible meanings of the phrase. Let it go.

[madokie]

64. Some never feel it while some never forget

Thanks for the words of encouragement, it really does matter.

There's many of us out here and they're making more and more by the boatloads as I type. Its cowards and fools who send young kids into battle and many of them are at a very impressionable age.

[Xithras]

83. The Vietnamese have no particular animosity toward Americans nowadays.

Vietnamese history books teach their children that Vietnam was under the control of invaders from France and Japan from the 1850's to the 1960's, and that the United States had merely attempted to prolong that occupation by outside powers. Following their invasion of Cambodia, the Vietnamese government decided that it wouldn't be a good idea to teach their people that "invaders are evil". When China invaded northern Vietnam after we left, it also took the focus off the U.S. as the "enemy du jour".

The Vietnam war is not stuck in the Vietnamese psyche the same way it is in America, and most Vietnamese consider it to be ancient history. They don't want your apologies, they want you to come vacation in their resorts, to hike their mountains, and to kayak Halong Bay. They want your $$, not your apologies :)

[kgnu_fan]

69. Self-determination of People of Vietnam - One more revolution

Patti Smith - Gung Ho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfHy0QQlvxo

On a field of red one gold star
Raised above his head
Raised above his head
He was not like any other
He was just like any other
And the song they bled
Was a hymn to him

Awake my little one
The seed of revolution
Sewn in the sleeve
Of cloth humbly worn
Where others are adorned

Above the northern plain
The great birds fly
With great wings
Over the paddy fields
And the people kneel
And the men they toil
Yet not for their own
And the children are hungry
And the wheel groans

There before a grass hut
A young boy stood
His mother lay dead
His sisters cried for bread
And within his young heart
The seed of revolution sewn
In cloth humbly worn
While others are adorned

And he grew into a man
Not like any other
Just like any other
One small man
A beard the color of rice
A face the color of tea
Who shared the misery
Of other men in chains
With shackles on his feet
Escaped the guillotine

Who fought against
Colonialism imperialism
Who remained awake
While others slept
Who penned like Jefferson
Let independence ring
And the cart of justice turns
Slow and bitterly
And the people were crying
Plant that seed that seed
And they crawled on their bellies
Beneath the giant beast
And filled the carts with bodies
Where once had been their crops

And the great birds swarm
Spread their wings overhead
And his mother dead
And the typhoons and the rain
The jungles in flames
And the orange sun
None could be more beautiful
Than Vietnam
Nothing was more beautiful
Than Vietnam

And his heart stopped beating
And the wheel kept turning
And the words he bled
Were a hymn to them
I have served the whole people
I have served my whole country
And as I leave this world
May you suffer union
And my great affection
Limitless as sky
Filled with golden stars

The question is raised
Raised above his head
Was he of his word
Was he a good man
For his image fills the southern heart
With none but bitterness

And the people keep crying
And the men keep dying
And its so beautiful
So beautiful
Give me one more turn
Give me one more turn
One more turn of the wheel

One more revolution
One more turn of the wheel

[kgnu_fan]

71. People Have the Power

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53HK2mBSd78&feature=related

[4bucksagallon]

77. But... but... but it was only a conflict not a war.

Unless of course you were intimately involved with it then of course it was a war. Glad it ended happy for the peace that ensued.