New analysis of 40-year-old recording of Kent State shootings reveals that Ohio Guard was given an o

[Yeahyeah]

Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer

New analysis of 40-year-old recording of Kent State shootings reveals that Ohio Guard was given an order to prepare to fire
By John Mangels, The Plain Dealer
May 08, 2010, 11:56AM

By John Mangels, The Plain Dealer
May 08, 2010, 11:56AM

>The previously undetected command could begin to explain the central mystery of the Kent State tragedy - why 28 Guardsmen pivoted in unison atop Blanket Hill, raised their rifles and pistols and fired 67 times, killing four students and wounding nine others in an act that galvanized sentiment against the Vietnam War.
The order indicates that the gunshots were not spontaneous, or in response to sniper fire, as some have suggested over the years.

"I think this is a major development," said Alan Canfora, one of the wounded, who located a copy of the tape in a library archive in 2007 and has urged that it be professionally reviewed. "There's been a grave injustice for 40 years because we lacked sufficient evidence to prove what we've known all along - that the Ohio National Guard was commanded to kill at Kent State on May 4, 1970."

"How do you spell bombshell?" said Barry Levine, whose girlfriend Allison Krause was mortally wounded as he tried to pull her behind cover. "That is obviously very significant. The photographic evidence and eyewitness accounts of what took place seemed to suggest everything happened in those last seconds in a coordinated way. This would be the icing on the cake, so to speak." >


Read more: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/05/new_analysis_of_40-year-old_re.html

[hedgehog]

1. IIRC, some of those killed that day had nothing to do with the demonstration -

just students going about their business.

[activa8tr]

8. Yes, as I recall, 2 of them were merely pedestrians. n/t

[FBI_Un_Sub]

10. Sandra Scheuer (one of the four students killed)

and her Mom were moving Sandra's belongings and cat (a cat is not a belonging but a special friend) from Sandra's dorm room to Mom's car. Sandra was just going about her business.

[kristopher]

17. Do you really consider that relevant?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. Yep. "He got AIDS and he isn't even gay! Poor guy. An innocent victim."

:eyes:

[hedgehog]

23. I mention it as evidence that the shooting was rather wild.

Supposedly, the soldiers were firing because they were in fear of their lives



from a threatening crowd




Throwing rocks



from 60' away downhill


:eyes:

[Travis Coates]

49. As I recall the soldiers were shooting 30.06 Rifles

That's a fairly long range weapon that could account for some of the "wild" shooting. I also imagine more than one of those National Guardsmen were freaking out at the thought of firing on Americans

[Jackpine Radical]

98. In that era, it might possibly have been old M-1's from WWII,

which were chambered for .30-06. More likely, they were M-14's, chambered for .308. The .308 is a more modern round that (at least in military loads) duplicates the ballistics of the .30-06. That is, it fires the same size bullet (.30 cal., 150 grain) at the same velocity (2700 fps muzzle velocity) as the .30-06. I think most Guard units had M-14's.

[Travis Coates]

109. In all the pictures I've seen they were M1 Garands

Not a riot weapon by any means

[Jackpine Radical]

114. I don't know how familiar you are with US infantry weapons of that period.

You may very well be right about the Garands, but the M-14 was really just an upgraded Garand with a shorter gas piston & stock forearm, a half-inch shorter action (due to the .308 replacing the .30-06), a 20-round magazine, a switch for full-auto (which was always removed before the rifle was issued to troops). At a quick glance, the protruding 20'round magazine of the M-14 was probably the most distinguishing feature. IIRC the M-14 was adopted by the military in about 1957, and was working its way into National Guard units rather quickly as the M-16 replaced it in the active-duty military, especially in Vietnam.

[Travis Coates]

117. 20 round magazines

If you look at the pictures none of the rifles have the protruding magazine. they were M1s remember this was the Guard they didn't have the newest best TA 50 This quote is from wikipedia FWIW

The Kent State incident forced the National Guard to re-examine its methods of crowd control. The only equipment the Guardsmen had to disperse demonstrators that day were M1 Garand rifles loaded with .30-06 FMJ ammunition, 12 Ga. pump shotguns, and bayonets, and CS gas grenades

[dotymed]

102. A long time ago, but it was and is

illegal to follow an illegal command.

[alfredo]

68. It shows it wasn't self defense. They were just killing "hippies."

It was a horror, but it also confirmed that we were having an effect.

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” Mahatma Gandhi

[Cherchez la Femme]

97. All killed or injured were innocent

but the students who were just going to class, i.e. not protesting
which included throwing rocks, bottles, etc. at the National Guard -- which are NOT crimes deserving execution (nor prosecution IMO, at least under those conditions)-- I'm just sayin'

The point of differentiating the murder and wounding of people both protesting and those not is the National Guard simply did not care who they killed. It wasn't even to 'get back' at the protesters in the worst way possible --it was a police riot. They were self=appointed judge jury and executioners

--more correctly, mass murderers.

The National Guard shot based on among many things, alternate ideology and perceived difference (they're not like *me* so they're less human!) for two, and the National Guard made sure ALL those damn students paid.


Those were ALL unjustified murders. To me, the pointing out of the difference isn't saying that only the protesters 'deserved it' but that the National Guard just didn't care who they killed on that campus

unless it was one of 'their own', that is... not THAT would, to them, be somwhow different :puke:




Sorry for the long bold & italicized -- I just wasn't less outraged with each additional sentence to close them :grr:

[Travis Coates]

111. There's no way you could know this

The National Guard shot based on among many things, alternate ideology and perceived difference (they're not like *me* so they're less human!) for two, and the National Guard made sure ALL those damn students paid.

Unless you were one of the Guardsmen firing. Even then you could only know your motives

[Cherchez la Femme]

134. Motive

is discerned in courts of law all the time. Legally, binding.

I see no reason why any person on earth can put together evidence and come to, most times, an accurate conclusion.

Were there other emotions going on through the guardsmens heads at the time, such as fear?
Certainly.
But the ideological split bwtween 'dirty anarchist hippies' and establishment types such as U.S. soldiers cannot be denied.

[Travis Coates]

135. Ideological splits

I severed in the Military as did several others here where's our Ideological split? I severed w/ gays, rednecks,(and a few gay rednecks) educated, uneducated, left, right black racists, white racists, Samoan racists, Pentecostals, atheists and several other types.

For the most part we were puttin' in time trying to get a pay check

[Taverner]

26. Yes, one of them was ROTC

As in "shipping off to Nam as soon as he graduated"

Honestly, they just shot random folks - whether they were involved in the protest or not...

[hedgehog]

30. I never knew that.

[Taverner]

33. "Also killed: Bill Schroeder, an ROTC student who'd been watching the protest - shot in the back"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-05-03-kent-state_N.htm

[Jackpine Radical]

38. He was backing toward the skirmish line

in a threatening and aggressive manner.

[Taverner]

48. LOL....LAC...LOL

:cry:

[regnaD kciN]

79. Actually, he was shot while lying on the ground...

He had enough "soldier sense" to know that you hit the ground when people are firing at you.

Didn't do him a damn bit of good.

[Hissyspit]

88. MAP:

[spiritual_gunfighter]

95. It doesnt matter what any of them were doing or not doing

shooting unarmed students is wrong.

[dkf]

2. Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

[nannah]

74. my mother saw the 1st news footage of the shootings

she was home with the tv on when it happened. she told me the troops took aim and fired directly at the students. she said she looked for the same footage to be shown again but it never was. but she was certain of what she saw. i've always believed her.

[SpiralHawk]

3. Gotta get down to it

Four dead in Ohio.

Some folks weasling out of responsibility.

[Hubert Flottz]

13. Wow

I was sitting out back playing and singing that very song about an hour ago.

[HughMoran]

4. K&R

[damntexdem]

5. Oh, how very surprising!

Not!

[bemildred]

6. Gee, ya think?

No offence to Mr Canfora, but anybody with an open mind has assumed since that day that they were ordered to shoot. The whole point of military training is to teach them to shoot only when ordered to.

[valerief]

11. +1 trillion

[ashling]

15. No offense to bemildred, but

having an open mind, by definition, means not assuming, but being open to other facts and points of view.

:shrug:

[bemildred]

18. Assuming does NOT equate to rejecting other points of view.

One assumes what is usual/conventional/observed, in the absence of evidence to the contrary. It is people who suggest that the facts disagree with the usual/conventional/observed who are most in need of evidence to support their views. There is NOTHING exceptional in assuming military people follow orders. The exceptions occur when they do not.

[pscot]

99. When people in authority fuck up

they lie about it. That is a given. It should be the basic operating assumption of every citizen.

[patrice]

101. Assuming does not necessarily equate with rejecting (because the assumer may

not be aware of or consider other points of view, so s/he can't reject what s/he isn't even aware of to begin with) but it equates even less with having an open mind, because the assumer, while s/he MAY NOT be aware of other points of, also MAY be aware of them, in more or less detail, and reject them anyway without consideration.

Though assuming what is usual/conventional/observed is of a higher probability than assuming what is unusual/anormal/unseen, assumption is predicated on "abscence of evidence to the contrary", not limited by probability, ergo one can assume what is highly improbable.

I agree that one would need an open mind, i.e. to not assume anything, to consider explanations other than the official Kent State explanation, but one assumes the opposite of that explanation, that the Guard was ordered to fire, a priori, i.e. without the evidence to the contrary (WEAK though it may be).

Perhaps you have considered that weak evidence and rejected it out of hand for the more probable.

Though armed, battle-ready military on an American campus is far from usual, I think your statement is about the probable, or likely, actions of the military, NOT about having an open mind.

[bemildred]

128. An hypothesis is not a fact, and an open mind consists in knowing that distinction.

In the meantime is is perfectly reasonable to argue based on the usual/conventional/observed as a working hypothesis. Scientists do that all the time, and the news media make a living off it. One is not required to say nothing lest one be considered biased, and in fact it can be a lot of fun and productive to consider what the most reasonable hypothesis given the known facts might be, but it does annoy people that are emotionally invested in particular points of view.

[Hamlette]

25. the people with the guns were kids too

it was a tragedy but keep in perspective that this was the national guard (weekend warriors) who were kids too.

It was a volatile time.

[WinkyDink]

29. Keep in perspective that the people with the guns were the only people with the guns.

[Hamlette]

46. I get it

but I can see the other side

[Patchuli]

108. Then you should see the side of the horror

of American kids firing on American kids who were not harming them.

[Hamlette]

110. so its important to you that I only see one side?

whatever

doesn't really work for me but your mileage my vary

[Travis Coates]

112. Happens every day in Chicago NT

[NoSheep]

78. Ding

[Recursion]

100. Well, we don't know that.

Well, tautologically, the people with guns were the only people with guns. We don't know whether people in the crowd were armed or not.

[Paladin]

105. Prove It. (n/t)

[Recursion]

106. Prove what, that we don't know whether people were armed or not?

How am I supposed to prove that we don't know something? We don't know if people in the crowd were armed.

[hedgehog]

32. OTOH- getting into the Guard kept you out of Viet Nam......

kids with connections?

[Hamlette]

47. not all of them were W

some were in the guard because they were against the war

and many of us are lucky we didn't have to do either

[hedgehog]

50. I stand corrected. It was a bad time to be a young man.

[No Elephants]

86. Yes and no. Many went to Canada and some, including Muhammed Ali, went to prison, rather

that fight in what they considered an immoral war.

Granted, some were just afraid to be killed or maimed. And granted, going to Canada or prison because of your principles applied to only a small minority of males of draft age. Stil, young men did have a choice, no matter how unappealing the alternative. (no offense to Canada--only meaning uprooting from your life.)

[The Wizard]

116. Ali did not go to prison

He was sentenced but appealed, and after three years the sentence was overturned.

[dflprincess]

54. Also keep in mind that no National Guard units were called up for Vietnam

and everyone knew the Guard was just a legal way to avoid being drafted and sent over there. That's why nearly all (if not all) Guard units had waiting lists back then.

Those doing the shooting that day were plenty brave when facing unarmed students but none of them had the nerve to either fight the war or stand up and fight against it.

[Travis Coates]

58. Not true

Quote: On 3 May, F-100s from the 120th Tactical Fighter Squadron (Colorado) arrived at Phan Rang Air Base. By 1 June, all of the l20th's pilots were flying combat missions. In the meantime, the 174th (Iowa), 188th (New Mexico), and the 136th (New York) had all deployed to Vietnam with their F-100s. In addition, 85 percent of the 355th Tactical Fighter Squadron -- on paper a regular Air Force unit -- were Air Guardsmen. The Air Guard units were quickly and effectively integrated into Air Force combat operations in Southeast Asia (SEA). Prior to their return home in April 1969, they flew 24,124 sortie and 38,614 combat hours. Those numbers rose to approximately 30,000 sorties and 50,000 combat hours if the predominantly Air Guard 355th was included. Two ANG fighter squadrons and their F-100Cs were dispatched to Korea in the summer of 1968 to replace the Air Force units that had been rushed there during the Pueblo crisis. The 166th (Ohio) and the 127th (Kansas) were formed into the 354th Tactical Fighter Wing. Except for the two flying squadrons, the wing consisted of individual Guardmembers and Air Force Reservists from other units. Once the Pueblo's crew was returned, the Air Guardsmen returned to the U.S. and left federal service shortly thereafter.

[dflprincess]

59. I stand corrected. From the National Guards website

http://www.ng.mil/About/default.aspx

During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam

1969 - Vietnam
During the Vietnam War, no massive call-ups of National Guard and Reserve units were made to raise military manpower. However, on January 25, 1968, a limited number of Air Guard units were ordered to active duty following the seizure of the U.S.S. Pueblo by the North Koreans. The communists' Tet Offensive in South Vietnam during February 1968 led to another limited mobilization of Army and Air Guard units in March 1968. Of the more than 22,000 Army and Air Guardsmen mobilized following the Tet offensive, nearly 9,000 served in Vietnam. Thousands more served as volunteers in the war zone.

9,000 - out of how many who were sent there?

Do really think Poppy would have gotten George-boy into TANG if there had been any real concern that junior would actually see combat? It was a legal way to draft dodge.

[Travis Coates]

62. I posted strictly to correct your statment. NT

[bemildred]

65. I'm not really all that much on about the kids.

It's the officers that ordered them to shoot I want to hold accountable, and the entire chain of command above them insofar as they were complicit.

I was a kid then too, and I never spit on a vet, and I never spit on a protestor, but I would have spit on Nixon or Kissinger in a second.

[Hamlette]

77. agreed

hold the officers who gave the order accountable, cut the kids some slack

I was in a few of the protests during Vietnam (not at Kent State) and there were a few times I was scared. While I didn't have a gun, I can think of a time I might of used it if I had.

LBJ was the most liberal president since FDR. If you get a chance, see the film at his library in Austin. At the end is a list of legislation passed during his presidencey. The list of accomplishments while LBJ was president is damn near as impressive as FDR's. All to help the poor and down trodden and to help achieve as much equality as possible. It doesn't balance out the horror that was Vietnam but a US without Medicare and Medicaid and Food Stamps and voting rights and civil rights and dozens of other accomplishments makes you wonder. Was it LBJ's penance for the war? He knew it was wrong and he agonized over it. What a complicated figure, what a fucked up time. (LBJ said if he left Vietnam the right would say dems are too weak to be commander in chief. Can't believe that was all it was. He didn't seem the type to run from bullies. I'll prolly never know.)

[No Elephants]

81. Whether anyone spit on the soldiers then is debated.

The right tends to believe it happened.

The left tends to believe it did not happen.

This author believes it was a myth, created and propagated by Nixonco. http://www.amazon.com/Spitting-Image-Memory-Legacy-Vietnam/dp/0814751474

[Travis Coates]

91. My father in Law knew from direct personal experience

It did happen

[The Wizard]

113. I was a bit tense

when I returned. Anyone who tried to spit at me would have needed medical attention. I know many veterans and none have personal experience of being spit at upon returning. We landed at military bases, and there were no people there to spit at us.
Anyone who even looked at me crooked was in danger of a beating.
Just because Rambo said it doesn't make it true.

[Travis Coates]

119. My father in law's name was

Everett Saunders not John Rambo.

[donquijoterocket]

120. jerry lembcke

A Vietnam veteran named Jerry Lembcke has done a fairly exhaustive study of that persistent myth and published a book titled Spitting Image:http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Spitting-Image/Jerry-Lembcke/e/9780814751473/?itm=1
He acknowledges the difficulty of proving the negative but still states he never found a verifiable report of such a thing happening.
I started college about 10 months after my return to the world and the primary reception I got was understanding that we(veterans) were likely to be scarred some and how could a civilized nation do that to their own citizens.

[Travis Coates]

122. My information is second hand admittedly

But I never knew the man to lie. He said he got spit on leaving McChord AFB

[LiberalFighter]

93. Spitting should not be a justifiable reason for a soldier to shoot. Especially back then.

And Nixon never should had used that as an excuse to justify the shooting considering he was a Quaker.

[WheelWalker]

35. Duh !

+1 x 10 to the 99th

[defendandprotect]

51. Agree 1000% --

[laststeamtrain]

7. K & R - Icing on the cake of living in Amerika. n/t.

[BlueIris]

9. nt.

[Demeter]

12. And It Only Took 40 Years

and the one who gave that order--dead and buried with honors, no doubt.

[underpants]

14. WOW someone thought that campus war protestors had snipers?

good lord.

[laststeamtrain]

22. If you're going to lie, lie BIG. Rush says the gulf oil disaster is 'eco-terrorism.'

Moe-rons believe it. It's insane.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

16. Today there would be cell phone pictures, flip videos, etc.etc.

I remember Kent State.

I always remember hearing that it was in response to stone throwing from the protestors. But how could a military unit (National Guard or not) be so undisciplined as to just fire randomly on college students?

I was in high school and a large number of students wore black armbands the next day and had a protest/sit down outside the high school.

[dflprincess]

55. And even with the cell phones, etc

the corporate media would tell us that what was seen and heard was not what had really happened. And that anyone who had any doubts about the official story was just a conspiracy nut.

[BrklynLiberal]

19. Such a tragedy...The lives lost..the lives altered forever...the parents still grieving....

the innocence and innocents lost...:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

The dead students would possibly be grandparents by now.....

[defendandprotect]

53. The aim was to get parents to keep kids from demonstrating, IMO . . .

and things sure quieted down quitea bit after that!

[Jefferson23]

21. To see this confirmed, it's about time. Still so much shame and

now, hopefully, assigned responsibility.

[madmax]

24. K & R remembering Kent State

[tjmoore2]

27. Government stupidity

William Knox Schroeder was an ROTC student that was shot at his car. I knew his best friend from high school. He told me, when he asked for leave from the Air Force to go home for the funeral, they asked what happened. When he told him his friend was one of the students killed at Kent State, it pretty much ended his chances for a career in the Air Force. He was working in the Pentagon data center at the time it happened. After it happened, all he was allowed to do is take classes. And, he had to have a corpsman with him everywhere he went.

[Drops_not_Dope]

126. if this happened today

Senator Lieberman would likely want this mans citizenship revoked for associating with "a terrorist".

[gleaner]

28. I knew it ....

I turned 23 the year Kent State happened and I was an anti war activist. I knew that sooner or later the government would start killing us. Nixon was dangerously deranged and some of the people who lined up against our ideas and demonstrations wanted nothing more than to see us dead.

I have heard for years about the existence of this tape or one like it, but it emerged and vanished so quickly that no one could prove that it existed and it soon assumed the proportions of a "rumor." It does all fall into place, especially if you realize that a National Guard officer in and of himself could not give a shoot to kill order on people who were peacefully demonstrating or going about their business and not involved. Permission must have come from above him with the presumption that the incident could be blamed on the demonstrators later. And that is what happened.

To OP who remarked that it made a difference if you died while demonstrating or merely being there, I need to say that it makes no difference. You are just as dead. To demonstrate, to speak out against government wrong doing takes courage in any time whether it was then or now, because you always run the risk of being attacked by onlookers, or "lawful" authorities or simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But it is a risk you take because it is the right thing for you to do. A matter of principle and an attempt to right grievous wrongs.

If you want to split hairs and say that bypassers are more deserving of life than participants, I would remind you that many bypassers were in line to be drafted to fight in Viet Nam whether they wanted to be there or not and the people who died were killed protesting that as well as the war in general. All victims are equally innocent. The victims didn't give a kill order. They didn't shoot into a peaceful crowd. That was the people who identified themselves as the lawful authorities who were somehow protecting America by killing its children, and twisting its future into the world we have now where many of us can barely find the means for a day to day existence.

[AllyCat]

31. Wow. Just wow. I don't know much about this dark time in our history

and this is just something that I thought HAD happened. To find out this had NOT been part of the "public discourse" is a development to me.

[hedgehog]

34. Don't forget what happened at Jackson State, either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson_State_killings

All these years I've wondered if Jackson State gets ignored because the victims were black, because it was the 2nd incident or both.

[FailureToCommunicate]

42. That's what my black friends in high school sure thought. There were some

differences - police not national guard - but in some ways Jackson State was worse: hundreds more bullets fired, and into a women's dorm building, in addition to the crowd on the ground!

But yeah, I had to agree, it was probably mostly that white kids instead of black kids were the victims that made Kent State bigger news. And of course those famous photos helped...

[TacticalPeek]

64. "because the victims were black, because it was the 2nd incident or both"

Or because that level of inhumanity was less unexpected at JSU, three miles from where Medgar Evers was shot in the back from ambush. It was a society known to be cowardly and violent.

College kids in Ohio, not Berkeley not Columbia - that was surprising.

[Blue_Tires]

70. this one has fallen down the national memory hole as well:

it wasn't Vietnam-related, but no less horrific:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangeburg_massacre

[No Elephants]

82. I;m guessing African-American.

Odd that, even today, media never seems to know when African American kids are kidnapped.

[Marthe48]

130. I remind people about Jackson State whenever KSU comes up

We need to remember that our U.S. government shot at us. Not just at KSU, not just Jackson State, but earlier, when workers tried to unionize the steel mills. My mother's foster brother had a finger shot off trying to organize Republic. The incident might be small or large, but if the government orders the army or national guard to fire on citizens, never forget. Never forget.

[KamaAina]

36. "Did you order the Code Red?"

"You want the truth?.. You can't handle the truth!!"

[Travis Coates]

129. You're goddammed right I ordered the code red NT

[New Dawn]

37. Kick for truth.

[Solly Mack]

39. K&R

[jsmithsen]

40. Rhodes Towers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_Tower

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodes_State_Office_Tower

This is unfinished business. These towers have to be renamed.

[FailureToCommunicate]

43. +1 And welcome.

[Submariner]

41. Remember it all too well......unfortunately

It happened just after I joined Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) and helped start organizing vets at the UMASS/Amherst campus. Just 2 years after MLK and RFK were assassinated, EVERYBODY was pissed in those days except the so-called silent majority, or in today's term...the TEABAGGERS.

These were trigger happy weekend warriors where the politically connected chickenshits hid out from Nam service and where some were ithchin' to shoot some peacenik hippy type long-hairs.

[lib2DaBone]

52. So True Sub Mariner.. sad times..thanks for checking in...

I was there on that day.. I remember it well. It was the first warm day of spring after a cold winter.

After a cold winter.. the kids were loving it.. they got outside. Have you never expereinced a nice warm day after a cold winter.. and wanted to be outdoors..walk in the grass of Central Park? That was the "crime" that was going on.

These were not (SDS) Student for a Democratic Society, or Black Panthers.. these were (for the most part) Community College kids! Kids who went to school during the day.. and at night... worked at McDonalds, a Supermarket stocking shelves... or at a Gas Station.

I was in Journalism class at the time.. I remember hearing the shots... but I could not get there until 4 hours later. (I had classes.. and at Kent State.... the campus was so strung out... you had to take a city bus to go from one class to the next)

Nixon sent his message.... with a shot across the bow... and thousands of youg men died in Viet Nam.

The Kent State Kids.... were just examples of what would happen if you didnt suck up to the Uber Republicans....

[lib2DaBone]

44. Never any doubt in my mind that it was an order to kill anti-war demonstrators...

The Military Industrial Complex does not like peace.. there is no profit to be made in a world at peace.

Nixon's main goal was to shut-up the anti-war protesters at any cost...even if it meant opening fire on un-armed kids.

Just after that, Richard Nixon started the War On Drugs.. which enabled the camel to get its nose under any tent... without a search warrant.. (or without oversight from a nosy Congress.)

To this day.. we can thank Richard Nixon for the War On Drugs. Tricky Dick created the DEA in 1973. (Isn't it strange how the party of "smaller government".....ALWAYS manages to create gigantic bureaucracies like DEA ,the TSA and Homeland Security? Homeland Security is THE largest Bureaucracy EVER created in the history of the United States.)

Nixon was successful..he managed to muzzle any opposition to war, and at the same time, paint opposition as "not Patriotic".. or "not American" The Republican Party (to this Day) clings to Nixon's media memes...it has been one of their main staples of talking points for the last 40 years.

The for-profit prison system, the Liquor Lobby and Big Pharmacy, continue to profit handsomely from the prosecution of victim-less crime... thanks to our Pal.. Tricky Dick.

Tricky Dick was really "Tricky".. in that he pulled off a double-bagger coup for the Conservative Gestapo, maybe even a triple-bagger... if you include the murder of JFK in 1963.

[Chicago dyke]

57. i once saw a depressing documentary on Kent State

"today," as in the time of the documentary, which iirc was in the 90s. it was about how the region had become much more conservative, and that the young people at the school wanted, mostly, to forget about the slaughter. they were unhappy that their school had some national reputation as a liberal shrine, when in modern times the school was in fact mostly populated by conservative or apolitical students. there were small groups of liberal activist students such as we might see here at DU, but they found themselves a clear minority and were often baited for dwelling "on the past."

sorry i can't recall the name of it now. i doubt that much has changed.

[No Elephants]

85. I don't know that I'd believe it, without knowing a lot more about the politics of the folk who put

together that documentary.

Righties seem to loves them some lying and distorting of what should be facts. (If you lie about contemporary events, I guess it's still just plain lying. If you lie about the past, it's now "revisionism," which sounds ever so much better.)

Welcome to DU.

[sam sarrha]

76. but they didnt shoot any demonstrators.. only people not demonstrating,

[John Q. Citizen]

45. Dupe, self deleted.

[Travis Coates]

56. I Listened and listened

And i couldn't hear any thing that sounded like a command to fire "Guard" is not a prepatory command. 'prepare to fire" might be but I didn't hear that

[grahamhgreen]

60. They played it on Democracy Now. It was very clear.

[Travis Coates]

71. I don't doubt that some one gave an order to fire

I just couldn't hear it. I'm only (did I just say "only"?) 44 I know about Kent State but I don't remember it.

That said, I spent most of my adult life in the military and here is my take on it.

28 soldiers make a flanking movement, shoulder arms and fire, somebody ordered them to do it. But, from all I've read, most of them fired into the air (not the brightest thing to do W/ a 30.06 BTW)or into the ground only a few fired at the students.

I think the soldiers were freaked out and scared and under a whole bunch of pressure and when they were ordered to fire they did it w/out thinking. This also illustrates (IMO) that it's a really, really, bad Idea to take infantry troops and try to make cops out of them.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Travis Coates]

73. More likely 14 years as a Cannon Cocker affecting my hearing

But thanks for being such a prick about it.

[mistertrickster]

84. Agreed. It is hard to hear and agreed, he is being a plick about it.

Thank you for your service and welcome to DU.

[Warren Stupidity]

61. a mystery? "why 28 Guardsmen pivoted in unison "

It was never a mystery to us. We were not so easily confused back then. Tin soldiers. 4 dead in Ohio.

[earcandle]

63. that event made cowards of all of us, and why not? who would think our own soldiers would shoot us?

[lib2DaBone]

66. +1 Would our Soldiers shoot us if we do not go along with War Buildup?

Obama is sending in more troops and surging. This week they will vote on $33 Billion for the war... even as people are sleeping under bridges and in tents. Sorry.. no money for you.. chumps...

Hillary Clinton is over there laying the ground work for un-ending war. (as she has been doing for the last 2 months).. our tax dollars at work for the benefit of AIPAC.

Will Our troops open fire on us? Will Black Water Troops open fire on us?

Does a Bear shit in the woods? Of course if money is involved....

[MkapX]

67. Canfora

2 out of the four were just bystanders. William was an ROTC student on his way back to from an exam when he was shot. If you go into the Kent State ROTC building today their is a plague in the office in his memory. They rebuilt the ROTC which was connected to Terance Hall...but Terance hall was torn down a couple of years ago so once again the ROTC center is all alone across from White hall school of education. It usually closes before May4th because some students put graffiti all over the doors and sidewalks (or at least during the Bush wars in Iraq they did)

Alan Canfora is the head of the May 4th Task Force..which is a student and survivor organization. They're in charge of scheduling speakers for may4th and other activities. Alan usually draws criticism cause he is so partisan (he often writes anti College Republican blogs on his website)So he often draws a lot of heat from students for the fact that he makes the shooting a partisan issue when it wasn't. In fact the young Republicans back in Kent in the 60's were also against the guard on campus. But then again the college republicans did try to have the may4 seat removed from the student government...so

[bananas]

69. direct link to the mp3 file

http://media.cleveland.com/pdextra/audio/kent-state-shooting-clip.mp3

[sam sarrha]

75. they only shot people away from the demonstrators, sending a subliminal message ..

[regnaD kciN]

80. Not true...

Both Jeff Miller and Allison Krause were among the demonstrators. Photos exist of Miller throwing a tear-gas canister back at the Guard a few minutes before the shooting. And Krause's boyfriend (quoted in the OP) has testified that they were among the marchers.

[Hissyspit]

83. We knew this at DU. This audio was posted here before, a year or two or three ago.

I could hear it pretty plainly then.

Plus, it was pretty obvious that's what happened all along. The soldiers acted as if they were receiving orders.

Shooting fucking innocent college kids. Disgusting.

Don't rest in peace, Gov. Rhoades.

[laughingliberal]

87. ...

:cry:

[Scruffy1]

89. I can remember how pissed off my father was.

My father was a veteran of two wars, an American Legion Post Commander and a Reserve officer. He thought that students should start shooting back at these thugs. The Then Governor of Ohio set the whole thing up may his Republican ass Roast in hell. As usual no one was ever prosecuted for this murder and terrorist act.

[47of74]

107. These thugs gave a bad name to everyone who has ever...

...worn the uniform of our nation and gave honorable service. Especially those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

[leveymg]

90. No Statute of Limitations on Murder - Grand Jury, Now!

Before the crucial surviving witnesses and defendants die of natural causes.

[Doug.Goodall]

92. K&R

[Richard Steele]

94. K&R

[Cherchez la Femme]

96. From what I've heard

having previously lived in the Kent State area for a couple years, the shooters are well known among N.E. Ohio residents and they are praised and admired


yes, for what they did at Kent State. :grr: :puke:

[Hansel]

103. I have no doubt.

They shot those dirty long haired or bra burning pot smoking free loving lazy hippies. They got what was coming to them.

If anyone really wants to really understand what motivates the Tea Party crowd, a study of that period in time would surely turn some lights on. The Tea Partiers are still living in that time period. A time where their world of authoritarianism and white superiority was turned on its head by the "disgustingly lawless and dirty liberals". Their emotional development is stunted in that era and they no doubt celebrate that the order was given at Kent State even though they likely continue to deny it happened.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why Tea Baggers are older and white if you understand society in 60s and early 70s. They lost their safe imaginary Leave to Beaver, and Ozzie and Harriet perfect world to reality and they have never gotten the therapy they need to deal with it. They want their country back and the pre-hippie country is the one they want back. The country where all the dirty secrets were white-washed and dirty laundry hidden, where all American soldiers wore white hats, where America was perfect, and where whites were superior. Where bad things only happened to people who deserved it. And clearly, in their delicate little minds, these people deserved being shot. Because the alternative would have been, and still is, too hard for them to deal with.

[populistdriven]

104. What more do you want from me?

What more do you want from me?
Some sort of apology?
Well, I promise that forgiveness is the most you'll get
And what I demand of you is to put up or shut up
So make your decision

But remember,
you can't kill us all

I know you don't know what you say
But I don't feel any safer from you

Hate is too easy and we'll both find a way to be right
No matter how far a stretch
And even now, I've all but forgotten what we're fighting for
To end something or to begin it?

I don't even know why I care to continue
Old habits die hard, I guess, but we don't
And the threats are still made
I'll kill you, even though turning away seems safer

I want to be in the middle
I want to go for the jugular, but I don't remember why
Was it to start something or to end it?
I know why I continue, I do it all for them

For her, I can be an influence
And for them, a backbone
To end the old and begin a new age
Of compromise and clear thinking

-Coalesce

[Jackpine Radical]

115. Wow.

[BobbyBoring]

118. that's pretty much it

I remember all to well the disdain that those of us that were "Different" were treated with. John Lennon paid with his life for being different and daring to speak the truth. I hope one day he will have justice as well.

[awoke_in_2003]

121. +1000...

when I hear the words "We want our country back" what you say is exactly what they mean. A popular bumper sticker around these parts is "Wake Up, America". I can't help but hear that white supremesist that Howard Stern used to call to fuck with. He had pre-recorded phone messages, and each one of had the phrase "Wake up, white people" in them.

[MkapX]

124. Tea

The Tea party is just a copy of the succussful anti war movement of the Bush era. Sure it didn't end the war but i curb the republican straggle hold on government so it was somewhat succussful in it's goal. Conservatives always copy the movement of the left (YAF being the conservative SDS). Because from the Vietnam era and on the student activist movement has been extremly succussful, they have done everything from stopping sweat shop clothing being sold in college bookstores to fighting for unionizing university workers. However unlike the anti war movement, the tea baggers are all white and all rich...it's not a good representation of america and that is why it will fail.

[Cherchez la Femme]

133. Amen

Yet they never realize(d) that Ozzie and Harriet et. al. were Fiction, and cowardly, milk-sopped concoctions of a utopia that no earthly homo sapien family could possibly begin to emulate at that. The same problems now are the same problems then only now they're actually talked about and in some cases actual progress has been made
probably by progressive politicians, those un-American bastards!
Sexism and racism was and still is rampant, there was tons of porn before Playboy (if you can call that magazine porn), there was sex, drug & alcohol addictions; as much adultery, incest and homosexuality, correcting for population, as there is now. There was abortion, but in back alleys with coat hangars causing not only the death of the foetus but too often a painful, lingering, sanguine death of also the woman. There was plenty of crime, same crimes as today: theft, extortion, rape, pedophilia, murder, etc. DUI wasn't even considered a crime back then --cause white men mainly did it?-- even though there were certain individuals who killed many people apiece due to their deliberate drunk driving yet they were never arrested or even sued until about the early 70's when MADD had had enough and organized. Heck, every crime there is now existed then except for the draconian drug laws and maybe hacking.
(BTW, does anyone know the yearly total of alcohol-related deaths and the total yearly number of death caused by unintentional drug overdose?)

Yet back then much more taxes were paid by the ultra-rich and corporations -- oh, the horror, the ultimate unfairness of it all! (Do many of these comments/asides really need :sarcasm:?)

In short, nothing has changed under the sun.

Society finally just started truly addressing reality instead of sweeping it under the rug or outright admitting it existed while creating pseudo roman 'a clefs where the biggest family problem was dear, good son Buddyboy (not a Doofus!) sticking gum under his high school desk instead of the reality of him sticking something else somewhere else causing what they would never talk about: teenage pregnancy. Therefore those options were mostly abortion (but for others it's wrong!) or the splitting of families by adopting out those unmentionable bastards; but they absolutely wouldn't admit to that because (jowls shaking) it just wasn't done

Even though it really was.

But no, that would never be depicted on Ozzie & Harriet, etc. back then. That's not quite the actual reality those 'wishing for simpler, more decent, God-fearing times' (all fallacies) want because truthfully they are in certain ways blatant and deliberately blind cowards:
They would not allow themselves with their TV-soaked, propagandized, self-professed beautiful "minds" to even lightly touch on the realities (with a few quickly disposed of instances) of our government trying to assassinate other world leaders, overthrowing other countries legitimately elected Democracies, righteous but militant (but in a good way -- another man's Freedom Fighter, ya know); The Cold War (non-propagandized version), Capitalism is THE BEST system in the WORLD, etc. etc. etc. They wouldn't examine or publicly discuss (unless you're say, in the KKK, and talk about it proudly) about their polluted country replete with A-OK segregation, all those Thalidomide, DES (&etc.) babies; the snake handling/speaking in 'tongues' religious freaks (don't talk or think about those people but hey! They're Christians so they MUST be righteous & good and obviously sane!);
their McCarthyist Amurica was STILL Bee-u-tea-full, even with its trashy, littered streets & highways, DDT etc., rivers catching fire and many toxic Love Canals -- they were all simply superlative!

Hell, they didn't want to have to realistically look in depth about all that -- Ozzie & Harriet covered what was really important!




Pardon the grammar, even Off Rant it never tends to be very good; especially with all the cut & pasting as the piece goes on.
And truthfully, as long as my points can be discerned, I can't say I really care too awfully much. :shrug:

[MkapX]

125. Apathy

Yes the sad part of Kent State is that many people celebrated the shooting. Governor Rhodes who called students "worst then brown shirts" even went on to be re elected two more times after Kent state. And some of the survivors received cards while in ICU that said something like "by the time i hope you read this you are dead"

When I was student back in 2006 their are still people who would say that the score is students 0 National Guard 4...or show incredible apathy for the shootings. Or some declaring that May4th was "punch a hippie" day. Which is a shame cause you can't honestly believed in the cookie cutter image that grade school puts in your head of USA being this great benevolent force in the world. Kent State opens a person's prospective that not everything is as they seem to be

[Uncle Joe]

123. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Yeahyeah.

[caseymoz]

127. Chalk this up to something else liberals have always known.

But for which the standard of proof had somehow become raised higher than the Great Wall of China. Of course the shootings were premeditated and commanded, and did not happen because those protesters sixty feet away scared the guardsmen. If witnesses agree that the guardsmen turned in unison, the shooting was done at command.

We see the same thing for global warming, for de-regulating Wall Street, for the Iraqi and Afghanistan wars, for off shore drilling . . . it's turning out everything liberals knew or warned of has actually turned out to be true.

[Marthe48]

131. My husband says an order to prepare to fire...

...is not an order to fire. He was in the army in the 1960's. From what he says, when you hear the 'prepare to fire' order, you get ready, but then you wait for another order, which is to fire. My husband also thinks saying Guard, then the command, sounds wrong.

In the article, Allen says he hears a possible sound that might be the beginning of the actual 'fire' order, but William Gordon thinks the order to fire may have been non-verbal.

Any ex-military have comments about the wording of the commands and the commands?

This new analysis might bring some answers, but I think it'll just bring more questions.

[Travis Coates]

132. Preparatory Commands

Any military command is given on two parts the Preparatory Command and the Command of Execution. Examples would be:

Battery(preparatory) Attention!(Command of Execution)
or (one we've all heard)

Front Leaning Rest Position, (Preparatory) Move! (Command of Execution).

"Guard" is not a preparatory command.

I heard what sounded like a woman yelling "Prepare" about halfway through the tape. For something like this the command would have been

Right flank, March !

Platoon, Halt!

Shoulder, Arms! ( or possibly, Present, Arms!)

Take Aim, Fire!

You tell me was there time for all that?