Hospital nun rebuked for allowing abortion (for life-threatening condition)

[brooklynite]

Source: MSNBC

PHOENIX - A nun and administrator at a Catholic hospital in Phoenix has been reassigned and rebuked by the local bishop for agreeing that a severely ill woman needed an abortion to survive.

Sister Margaret McBride was on an ethics committee that included doctors that consulted with a young woman who was 11 weeks pregnant late last year, The Arizona Republic newspaper reported on its website Saturday. The woman was suffering from a life-threatening condition that likely would have caused her death if she hadn't had the abortion at St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center.

Hospital officials defended McBride's actions but confirmed that she has been reassigned from her job as vice president of mission integration at the hospital. They said in a statement that saving the mother required that the fetus be aborted.

"In this tragic case, the treatment necessary to save the mother's life required the termination of an 11-week pregnancy," hospital vice president Susan Pfister said in an e-mail to the newspaper. She said the facility owned by Catholic Healthcare West adheres to the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services but that the directives do not answer all questions.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37171656/ns/health-health_care/

---

Maybe they figured God could sort it out afterwards?

[patrice]

1. Let the Catholic bashing begin.

[pennylane100]

6. Are their actions worthy of praise.

They would seem to prefer to sentence this poor women to death because terminating her pregnancy was wrong. This would seem like a perfect time to bash the catholic church.

[Zoeisright]

7. And why not? Not allowing therapeutic abortions is a sin.

Therapeutic abortions, to save the life or health of the mother, are considered a human right by the United Nations. If the Catholic Church is against this, the Catholic Church is guilty of violating human rights. And the Catholic Church should shut the fuck up and mind its own business.

[defendandprotect]

41. RCC church is still at war with women -- and in no way values those female lives...

According to the RCC women have no right to self-defense . . .

if the attacker is a fetus/pregnancy!!

[perdita9]

64. Fetus worship is sick!

Have you been in a Catholic Church recently? There are idols of infants all over the place for people to light candles and pray over. It's beyond disturbing.

[Mark D.]

74. I've Heard

Given hypotheticals in debates over Abortion, anti-choicers say it there was even a slim chance the woman would survive (say, 90% chance of death) they'd opt to forgo abortion. Since the aborted foetus would have a '100% chance of death'. If you want to win the debate on the fundamental grounds, here are suggestions. Make note, try them!

1) Ask them how often Jesus spoke against abortion. He didn't. Not once. There WERE herbal-induced miscarriages in His day. This also works for birth control and gays, two other obsessions of theirs, since He never mentioned those either, even though there were primitive forms of the first one used, and the latter did exist, albeit very hidden from sight.

2) Ask them this. This one is GREAT! If MY solution, better education, better availability of birth control, etc., reduced unplanned pregnancies (it's the top cause of abortion) reduced the abortion rate 40%, and YOUR solution, illegalization of choice, no sex ed, very limited birth control, abstinence-only, reduced it only 20%. Which would you pick?

3) Watch them try to explain that away. How true 'Christians' focus on what Jesus never talked about, and rally against very liberal things he focused on. On Abortion, if they didn't pick 'their solution' they'd be going against their 'party line'. But if they do pick it, they would reduce abortion far less than if they had picked 'my (legal) solution' instead.

This could cause them to self destruct as they are unable to chose. Reduce abortion more, but don't illegalize it. It's not logical. Remember that scene in Star Trek where Kirk tells the android Norman that everything Harry Mudd says is a lie, and Mudd says he's lying? Exactly! Five minutes in on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6WSIXxTx4I

[defendandprotect]

76. K&R your very interesting post . . .

I've Heard

Re #1 -- repeating bcause excellent suggestion . . .

1) Ask them how often Jesus spoke against abortion. He didn't. Not once. There WERE herbal-induced miscarriages in His day. This also works for birth control and gays, two other obsessions of theirs, since He never mentioned those either, even though there were primitive forms of the first one used, and the latter did exist, albeit very hidden from sight.

Points to the reality that nature is PRO-CHOICE and supplied many natural plants women used

to interrupt conception, control fertility, even end fertility -- all knowledge of which was

destroyed by patriarchy. And, presumably the plants, as well!!

Re gays, don't know that they were so well hidden at that time . . . and if I recall correctly

there are one or two instances in Bible where Jesus seems to have a homosexual encounter --

a brief lie down in the grass!!

Meanwhile, I don't think there is any vouching for any of Jesus' words in the Bible except

five -- five words!!

Re #2 -- Imagine they would suggest that birth control is a "sin" ---

but obviously making abortion illegal and women dying from it isn't a sin!!

We should be subsidizing vasectomies -- the only reliable birth control!

[marshall]

86. Luckily they have the choice to opt to forgo abortion

If a woman makes a well informed decision to forgo an abortion with a diagnosis of 90% chance of death, that is her choice and she should thank her lucky stars that she has the right to make that choice. She should be supported in that choice every bit as much as the woman who opts for the procedure.

[liberation]

8. Gosh darned, you're right... The Holy Catholic Roman Church are the only victims in this tragedy

I mean the people involved in this story had it so easy! Let's focus on the real "victims," the catholic church. Right?

Given the persecutory manias some religious people display, no wonder there are such displays of insanity when it comes to the most religious of them all: the fundamentalists.

Oh, well....

[Cleobulus]

9. Why do you show so much concern for the Church, and not for people? n/t

[BlueMTexpat]

10. Just read some Church history ...

and notice how the CC has demonstrated its "love" of life since its own inception.

*********
And I say this as a recovering Catholic, with sincerely profound respect for the many good Catholics I know who do not impose their personal beliefs on others.

[MindandSoul]

78. As a lifelong Catholic who has refused to surrender her own God given free will

to the manmade dogmas of ANY religion, including the Catholic Church, I totally agree with you!

God gave us free will. . .why does the male leaders in the Catholic Church insist in taking our free will away?

[BlueMTexpat]

79. Bravissima!

And yes, every single one of the dogmas is manmade, with emphasis on the "man" - and the dogmas always conveniently espouse and advance male agendas.

:hi:

[Control-Z]

12. Seriously, in a story like this,

is there something about Catholics not to bash? Some charitable, noble, god loving gesture I missed?

[Hekate]

58. The nun and the hospital administrator did the right thing. The woman in front of them came first...

... and they were punished for not following sterile doctrine.

There are many, many individual Catholics in this world who are living their religion and doing good works. I don't go for bashing the congregation.

But I have had it up to here with the the institution of the Church, which has taken on the behavior of a mega-multinational-for-profit-corporation, and I have a feeling that increasing numbers of Catholics feel the same.

Hekate

[northernlights]

21. they would murder a living, breathing woman

in order to save an 11 week old fetus.

You say bashing. I say calling a spade a spade.

[sasquuatch55]

36. Values : Pro-life for the unborn- Pro- war(Death) for all others.

nt

[defendandprotect]

44. Exactly right . . . because what's at stake for this male-supremacist church . . .

if they can't overturn abortion is losing complete control over women and

reproduction -- human sexuality.

Human sexuality has been the main avenue thru which they controlled the minds and

bodies of their members.

Meanwhile, members completely ignore their teachings on birth control --

and Catholic women have just as many abortions as any other women!

This is why the church has turned to violence in "pro-life" murderers to win this issue!

[rebecca_herman]

61. it wouldn't have saved the fetus anyway

It sounds like the woman was close to dying and she was only 11 weeks. I highly doubt she could have survived 13 more weeks.
Even if someone thinks a fetus is a person, why want *two* people to die when you can save one? It doesn't seem "pro-life" to me at all. /facepalm

[pattmarty]

22. I was born and raised a Catholic and I just love to bash the fuck out of them.............

...............Bunch of sick fucking perverts.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Being appalled that the church values fetuses above women is 'Catholic bashing'?

If it is, then count me in! I have nothing at all positive to say about a church that would rather see a woman die than allow her to have an abortion.

[Christa]

25. The RCC deserves all the bashing they get

and then some, starting with the Inquisition.

[geckosfeet]

27. No need - they are bashing themselves.

[enki23]

38. any bashing this fucking medieval bullshit gets is far beyond earned

[1monster]

39. Got news for ya, honey. If the pregnant mother dies, so does the baby with which she is

pregnant.

Nothing praiseworthy in the actions of the Catholic Church here. Apparently, they would prefer both dead to saving an existing life and a life that wouldn't be, one way or the other.

[defendandprotect]

40. According to this male-supremacist church, women have no right to self-defense . . ???

Evidently, if the attacker is a fetus/pregnancy, women -- ALONE -- have no right

to defend themselves!!

By all means, continue to support a male-supremacist church if you wish, but don't

pretend that you don't know what it's all about!

Let's not pretend innocence --

[Odin2005]

43. It isn't "bashing" when it's TRUE!

[StarlightGold]

49. Damn right

Not one word of support should ever be spoken in support or defense of this disgusting organization's history with women/children. We will bash it up one-side and down the other.

[Politicub]

62. Here's my contribution - I am longing to see the Catholic Church implode

It's way past its prime, but it is playing the same role of fucking over the people and doing everything in its power to cover up crimes by its syndicate of priests.

Yes, there are some good catholics, blah blah blah. But the institution of Catholicism is antithetical to the progress of humanity. The people who make up the leadership of the Catholic church tune out all criticism and cry victim.

It's just getting so old hearing about a scandal and cover up here, overt and enthusiastic support of misogyny and homophobia there, etc. etc. etc.

I believe the church is on a collision course with itself and history, and I will gladly do anything or spread as much information as I can to contribute to its demise.

[BrklynLiberal]

69. What a surprise...NOT. You are offended......

[HERVEPA]

73. And well-deserved if it does, certainly in this case.

[Javaman]

75. let the hit and run pot stirrer run and hide. nt

[w4rma]

80. Damn straight. These people deserve worse than bashing.

They are punishing a woman for saving a girls life.

[AngryOldDem]

83. Oh, please.

When it acts like this, it deserves it.

But, please, defend it. Explain how it all makes sense.

[saigon68]

85. Here you go Sport

[Mind_your_head]

2. Yes, perhaps G-d will sort it all out.....and that Sr. McBride will serve

G-d better outside of the constricts of the catholic church? :shrug:

"Everything works out for the best, even though it may not seem so at the time."

[Journeyman]

3. It seems the nun's karma ran over the church's dogma . . .

too bad there's no room for compassion in their theology. . .

[Angry Dragon]

4. The catholic church is made up of stupid men

that are afraid of women and sex. Everything that has anything to do with sex is a mortal sin. Anything that deals with women to give them the same rights as men is a sin against the church. The old men of the church tell everyone else to make as many babies as they can but they themselves are afraid of women. The church says sex with boys is okay because you can go to confession later and the priests will forgive you. It is time for the catholic church be called what it is...a cult.

[Iowa]

15. I think you are correct...

This is an organization that is run by an exclusive, all-male club. Most of the men who enter this club decide to do so at a young age - many right out of high school. They tend to be quite immature in many respects - with psycho-sexuality being only one area. Some are stunted in the sense that they have not progressed through some of the psychological developmental milestones. These tend to be guys who never dated and who find women to be discomfiting and mysterious. They also tend to be nerdy types; even their relationships with men aren't entirely "normal". It's like they're 10 years old in some respects. They tend to be weak, dogmatic, pathologically introspective, immature, and incredibly self-absorbed.

After a few years in a protected seminary environment, these weak and ineffectual men don a roman-collar and are thrust into a community where everyone calls them "father", kisses their asses, carefully parses every word they utter, jostles to be near them, and showers them with attention, money, favors, and respect. They live like kings. They become local celebrities literally overnight. It all comes far too easily and quickly. Before too long, they begin to believe they deserve it. The worst among them rise to the top and become bishops, monsignors, and cardinals. It's hard to imagine a scenario with more potential for corruption, debauchery, and psychopathy. It's an accident waiting to happen.

All of it... the child abuse, the cover-ups, the twisted attitudes toward sexuality and women, the "fit-like-a-glove" relationship with right-wing political organizations, money, and power... it all goes back to the psychological make-up of many of the men who choose to be priests. It is a hopelessly messed up organization.

IMHO

[defendandprotect]

45. Organized patriarchal religion underpins patriarchy . . . .the war on women . . .

i.e., why is anyone surprised at this behavior?

[redwitch]

52. Not stupid men only.

It is also made up of women like this courageous nun.

[Angry Dragon]

57. I meant the men at the top

making the rules for everyone else. There are many fine Catholics, priests and nuns included. It is stupid ones that put a stain on them all. The church will say , look at the fine job we are doing in feeding the hungry but it is the ones in the trenches that are doing the work and caring for the people they come into contact with. The church leadership is stuck 1500 to 2000 behind the times and they can not see it for that would mean they might have to give up some of their riches and power.

[BrklynLiberal]

70. +1000

[Pirate Smile]

5. Reminds me of the first thing I ever remember hearing about abortion. Why it came up?I have no idea.

My (Irish) Catholic Mom (who attended all girls Catholic schools taught by the nuns all the way up through High School) told me that the Church cares nothing about the woman, all they care about is the baby and if that woman has six little kids at home who are completely dependant on her for everything - it doesn't matter. All that matters is the baby. The woman's life is irrelevant to them. To say this was uttered with disdain and contempt for the church would be an understatement.

That made quite an impression on a 12 year old girl.

My daughter's jolt came when she said she wanted to be a priest at around 7 and I got to tell her that she couldn't be one and why(??). You spend a lot of time telling kids they can be anything they want to be as long as they are willing to put in the time and hard work so when they run into that crap - it definitely is a jolt.

As I said during the health care debate when the Sisters endorsed the HCR plan and the Bishops didn't - Trust the Nuns.

[Shallah Kali]

18. I was told something similar by someone who used to work in a Catholic hospital yrs ago

she was surprised how well taken care of her granddaughter was when she had dangerous complications during childbirth because of where she worked they focused on the baby and neglected the Mothers when things went wrong :(

[Hekate]

11. This is unconscionable

~ deleting first paragraph of rant ~

What century are we in here? A woman in Georgia has just been charged with "vehicular feticide" for speeding and crashing her car, injuring herself and causing her pregnancy to abort. This carries a 10 year prison term.

:wtf:

Hekate

[BlueIris]

13. "(V)ehicular feticide."

Please tell me that isn't a real crime in FL. Please.

[Hekate]

17. I don't know about Florida, but there has been a big push across the states...

... to separate woman and fetus into separate legal entities with equal rights.

Hekate

[BlueIris]

19. Oh, you wrote Georgia. My brain read it as Florida.

Because, I figured, something that BATSHIT CRAZY had to be a Florida atrocity.

[Control-Z]

14. Oh, Hekate. This is horrifying to hear.

Do you have a link to the story? I know I probably should stay away from it, but my conscience won't let me leave it alone.

[Hekate]

16. Heard it on CNN today. That twit Fredericka Whitfield was treating it like a joke...

She provided no background, no context, just talked about the law as though it made some kind of rational sense. Words to the effect of "Ha-ha don't speed in Georgia, because they really mean business, she could get 10 years in prison" and some lightweight back-and-forth with whoever was on the air with her. The woman might also have been DUI -- any case, she was driving quite recklessly, and imo should be charged accordingly. But prison because her fetus died? Good God.

This kind of outcome is the reason why those of us who are pro-choice kept trying to tell the rest of the country that while it might feel good in the moment to pass a law making the murder of a pregnant woman into a double-homicide, it was really just another way of eroding the right to get an abortion. It's all over the place now, in a significant number of states. The Utah legislature wants to make it a punishable crime for a woman to have a miscarriage if she's been "careless."

Once you start separating woman and fetus into two legal entities you are in trouble.

Hekate

[Jennicut]

32. Utah is nuts. Punishable crimes for miscarrying a baby?

I had gestational diabetes when I was pregnant with my second daughter (and later developed it full blown after she was born). Was I careless? Could they claim I caused that? Conservatives say they want big govt. out of their lives...how about out of the lives of mothers?

[Tansy_Gold]

60. This is why some of us who are pro-choice would put NO limits on

elective abortion.

I don't get into the debate much here on DU any more, but I will take this particular opportunity to reiterate my personal position which is that any and all abortions should be legal -- yes, even up to 8 3/4 months -- because it should ALWAYS be up to the woman. Always, always, always. The fact that there are very very few later term abortions anyway, and that virtually all of them are for extreme reasons -- life/health of the mother, non-viable fetus, etc. -- there are not very many healthy "babies" ever put at risk. And for those who are, we also know it's so rare as to be almost non-existent that a woman elects to abort a healthy, late-term, viable-outside-the-uterus fetus. It just doesn't happen.

But what DOES happen, because there are those who think the above scenario MIGHT happen, is that too many legislators choose to err on the side of protecting those vulnerable "babies" and they give the anti-woman, pro-fetus nutcases the ammunition they need to pass laws that protect non-viable fetuses and put viable women at serious risk.

I'm not much for absolutes; I tend to be a "lots of shades of grey" person. But when it comes to at least two issues, I do choose the absolute stance: Absolutely no legal restrictions on a woman's right to choose abortion, and no death penalty ever, never not under any circumstances.


Tansy Gold

[MadMaddie]

68. Tansy you have stated my feelings very well!

I have nothing to add.

[Autumn Colors]

28. Here's a link to a story I found about it

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cops-pregnant-mom-killed-fetus-drunk-driving-crash/story?id=10638814

[Mopar151]

20. Why why why

Dont these fools get it? Most abortions are about damage control in ongoing tragedies...

[Moosepoop]

23. I read here on DU yesterday that the nun was excommunicated.

"Nun automatically excommunicated for participating in decision allowing abortion that saved mother"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8341234

Now it's "reassigned and rebuked".

Wonder which it is?

[Bette Noir]

30. Let me see if I have this right.

The Church protects priests who molest little boys, because "no one is beyond redemption," but a nun who helps save a woman's life is automatically excommunicated? It sounds more like, "no one with a penis is beyond redemption."

[WhiteTara]

26. if the mother died, wouldn't the fetus die also?

so the nun did the best thing...she saved one life.

[Karenina]

51. I wonder if the woman in question has other children. n/t

[rebecca_herman]

87. she did

she had 4 children at home and was in heart failure already: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126985072

[noiretextatique]

56. the fetus could not survive without the mother

which clearly shows the extreme anti-choice agenda is more about controlling women than their professed love of life.

[mainer]

81. Yes, but the church says they'll just "hope for the best" that she lives

Relying on prayer rather than action when a train is coming right at you really works well.

[Angry Dragon]

29. Perhaps the catholic church falls into the

too big-to-fail category. It might be time for the good Catholics to split once again from the corrupt catholics.

I notice there is a fair number of former catholics on DU and some are very passionate about their dislike of the catholic church. The church then calls these people heretics instead of trying to understand why these people leave the church.

Is the catholic church the BP of religion?? Destroyer of souls and lives??

[Jennicut]

31. Read this part of the article and tell me it doesn't make you all sick:

Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted, head of the Phoenix Diocese, indicated in a statement that the Roman Catholic involved was "automatically excommunicated" because of the action. The Catholic Church allows the termination of a pregnancy only as a secondary effect of other treatments, such as radiation of a cancerous uterus.

"I am gravely concerned by the fact that an abortion was performed several months ago in a Catholic hospital in this diocese," Olmsted said in a statement sent to The Arizona Republic. "I am further concerned by the hospital's statement that the termination of a human life was necessary to treat the mother's underlying medical condition.

"An unborn child is not a disease. While medical professionals should certainly try to save a pregnant mother's life, the means by which they do it can never be by directly killing her unborn child. The end does not justify the means."




So, don't do an abortion, which directly kills the fetus, so the mother's life can be saved? A fetus in the Catholic Church's mind is more important then an adult. I am disgusted.

[defendandprotect]

46. Remember also that the church's violent war on Roe vs Wade ....

and internationally in limiting family planning help/UN -- also kills women.

Any time legal abortion is blocked which is happening here all over America, it forces

women to illegal abortion which often kills them or destroys their future fertility.

Basically, this is a church still at war on women --

Organized patriarchal religion underpins patriachy --

[Jennicut]

50. Yes, totally against women. And who cares about us? We are only half

the world's population. I am actually a very religious person, I am a pro-choice Lutheran. But hurting women like this is not Christian, it is barbaric.

[defendandprotect]

53. We're the majority of the population all over the world . . .

Usually more like 52% or more --

In fact, many think we would be even larger majority if they weren't

constantly killing women all over the world !! Killing and abusing them!

Organized patriarchal religion is the underpinning for pariarchy --

how is it that you support a male-supremacist religion?

Do you really need male middle-men to access a spiritual connection to the universe?

And, I ask that sincerely --

:)




PS: Just as an aside on females as majority -- women also contribute more to reproduction

-- 57% vs 43% genetically for males -- when mitochondria is reflected.

Needless to say, gestation also puts the fetus inside the female body for 10 months --

subject to all of her movements, feelings, etal --

And, breast feeding is evidently one of the most essential things a mother can do --

some of those hormones/chemicals are used into old age . . . even 80's.

And, mother also passes on natural immunities.

[Jennicut]

54. I won't get in the way of people choosing their freedom of and from religion,

but I would appreciate men (and idiotic women, there are them out there) not getting in the way of my freedom over my own body.

My husband is a church organist at a Lutheran church that allows women pastors and is for gay and abortion rights. You don't find too many churches like that.

From what we know (and we really never know everything, it was too long ago),Jesus did not keep women down, he included Mary Magdelene into his inner circle. It is over time where it all got manipulated and the Catholic Church and the Pope have little to do with Jesus's early teachings. Mary Magdelene as a prostitute? Came from a Pope. Power through religion, use of manipulation.

[defendandprotect]

77. Thank you --

[AngryOldDem]

84. Well, such martyrdom puts you on track for sainthood.

From 2004:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-makes-saint-of-woman-who-died--after-refusing-abortion-563689.html

<<Pope John Paul II named six new saints yesterday, including a woman who became a symbol for opponents of abortion because she refused to end her pregnancy despite warnings that it could kill her.

The Vatican has long championed the case of Gianna Beretta Molla, an Italian pediatrician who died in 1962 at the age of 39 - a week after giving birth to her fourth child. Doctors had told her it was dangerous to proceed with the pregnancy because she had a tumour in her uterus, but she insisted on carrying the baby to term. In proclaiming her a saint, John Paul praised her "extreme sacrifice" and her simple but profound message.<<

So four kids grew up without a mother.

[ensho]

33. hugs and kisses for the sane and caring nun

kicks in the balls of the religously insane bishop

and good health to the ill woman

[rox63]

35. +1

[defendandprotect]

47. +1000% . . .

[rox63]

34. Please note that the people on the front lines (at the hospital) did the right thing

It's the Church hierarchy that is full of s**t.

The actual Catholic lay people (and the nun) made the life of the mother a priority.

[defendandprotect]

48. +1000%

[CatholicEdHead]

37. This was a health care Catch 22

With the awful choice between the mother or the baby, there are no good choices. The Bishop should butt out and let the nun keep her job as it was a no-win situation here, someone had to die. :( It is not fair to the nun.

[Hekate]

59. The truly insane thing about "the baby" is that it was an 11-week fetus weighing 1/4 ounce

Under 2 inches in length, weight about one-quarter of an ounce. Unless a woman has jumped to get an early pregnancy test, she might not even know she is pregnant at that stage.

Christ on a trailer hitch, and the living breathing woman was supposed to be allowed to die? God bless the nun and the administrator.

Hekate

[Odin2005]

42. RCC = EVIL MISOGYNIST PIGS

[noiretextatique]

55. please note this was first trimester abortion

i post this for those who are "concerned" about late-term abortions.

[Karenina]

63. I so wanna know

is this a first-born thing or is she the mother to other children???

Damn, girlfriend, folks be Keith Moon out there these days! :hide:

[The abyss]

65. Ahh yes…

Brought to us by the developers of the inquisition.

<>

I have so much respect! :sarcasm:

[NoodleyAppendage]

66. I guess it was all gOD's plan. At least that's what the dumbasses will say...

...and yes, if you believe in a mythical, sociopathic cloud being you are a dumbass.

J

[BrklynLiberal]

67. The official and standard practice at Catholic Hospitals has always been that the

life of the baby always has priority over the life of the mother.
They already have the mother's soul. The baby's soul is still available to be laid claim to.

[Crunchy Frog]

71. If she had been molesting little boys, it would have been okay.

[femrap]

72. The Catholic Church

needs to be paying more attention to the priest's wee-wees than to the wombs of women.

The Church looks upon women as chattel. As one of the past popes announced in Mexico, 'Please women have more children, the Church needs Priests.' I think it was that John Paul dude.

Organized religions are sick.

[mainer]

82. Anti-choicers always claim there's "no medical condition requiring abortion"

As a medical person myself, I often go head to head with anti-abortion people who claim there are NO medical conditions that would threaten the life of a mother and therefore require an abortion, despite the fact I'll list eclampsia, uterine cancer, etc.

I guess I can add one more condition to the list.