Venezuela's Chavez orders takeover of iron-makers

[Synicus Maximus]

Source: AP

President Hugo Chavez announced Saturday the expropriation of a group of iron, aluminum and transportation companies in Venezuela's mining region.

Among the expropriated companies is Materiales Siderurgicos, or Matesi, which is the Venezuelan subsidiary of Luxembourg-based steel maker Tenaris SA.

Venezuela's socialist president said in a televised that his government was going to take over Matesi because "we couldn't reach an amicable and reasonable settlement with the owners."

Chavez said production at the company has been paralyzed since midway through last year, when Venezuela's president announced plans to nationalize it.

Chavez said he was also going to expropriate Venezuelan-owned Orinoco Iron and aluminum-maker Norpro de Venezuela C.A., which is an affiliate of the U.S. company Norpro in association with France's Saint Gobain, among other companies.

Read more: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9FNMNMO2.htm

[bemildred]

1. Go Chavez!

:popcorn::popcorn:

[protocol rv]

3. You do realize that industry will be ruined

The iron and aluminum industries will be ruined, and national income will suffer. The companies involved will go into arbitration, and will win their awards. In the end, all you communists are accomplishing is destruction.

[bread_and_roses]

19. ROFL, all those private companies doing such a great job, eh?

like BP, Halleburton, that exemplary coal mine company that recently killed a few workers - no great harm, right? plenty more where they came from! Oh, and those private US companies that have managed to keep workers' wages flat for about 30 years, such marvels of fairness and equity for workers!

It takes some hubris to be singing the marvels of private corps right about now.

[protocol rv]

98. Overall, they do a better job than public corporations

There are of course the strays, which are then culled from the herd by the market - there are always predators waiting to pounce on the weak. Or should I remind you the names of famous corporations such as Enron, Cities Service, and General Motors, all of them bankrupted or sold because they could not withstand the heat? :-)

By the way, I'm not sure why you mention Halliburton. I don't like their profiteering via the Cheney connection, nor their business line in Iraq, but they seem to be out of the picture regarding the blame for the BP oil spill. Which is, after all, the BP oil spill, right?

[Vincardog]

135. Halliburton put i the cement cap that failed. BP ran the show and owned the lease

[protocol rv]

177. Yes, and?

Halliburton putting in the cement doesn't mean Halliburton is guilty of anything. Cementing an oil well isn't done perfectly all the time. This is why the well is pressure tested after the cementing.

[Vincardog]

215. The well failed the pressure test after the cementing. This has happened to Helliburton before.

they seem to be out of the picture regarding the blame for the BP oil spill.
No their shoddy cost cutting are in the center of the picture again.
Can ya hear me NOW?

[Cleobulus]

138. Uhm, doesn't it matter in what industry they are in to determine that?

Postal Services are better run by public corporations, so are, in most industrialized countries, electricity production, health insurance, some heavy industries, public utilities, etc.

[protocol rv]

178. I agree

but things are changing. Water distribution is best done by a public entity, but its possible to have individual water plants and even the sewage and garbage collection carried out by private outfits. Electricity production is best done by private corporations or individuals. I can't see any heavy industry which should be run by the government, except for possibly railroad rail construction, and some weapons manufacturing - I don't think nuclear weapons should be built by General Electric ;-)

But it's better to have as much privatization as possible. In general, government owned entities are inefficient, and in third world nations they are also prone to nepotism, corruption, and really bad management. There are some exceptions, such as Petrobras in Brazil. But Pemex is terrible, and so is PDVSA today.

[Cleobulus]

181. You are fucking nuts, privatization has lead to some of the dumbest....

and most expensive debacles in recent history.

[protocol rv]

196. Nationalization has led to worst debacles

Ooverall, the record for nationalization is a lot worse. Think of the Soviet Union, where everything was nationalized. I don't think you will find many Russians who want to return to that sordid, ugly past called communism. You see, I observe a lot of cognitive dissonance in the pro-communists who proliferate in this website. This means the inability to process information which doesn't fit a preconceived notion. Over and over, country after country, it is shown that privatization, carried out carefully, is usually a better option. Privatization carried out with a poorly thought out mechanism, too fast, or in a corrupt fashion, can lead to serious problems. And of course, some government activities should not be privatized. I find the US government's privatization of war to be an obscenity.

[Cleobulus]

206. "usually a better option." OK, give an example. n/t

[Threedifferentones]

230. Excuse me

This is the false choice we have been taught about socialism, that it is only the work of dictators like Lenin or Castro.

Chavez certainly looks to be headed in the same direction. He keeps nationalizing more and more industries, he and his allies are tremendously rich, and progress for the people remains very limited by our standards, or Cuba's for that matter.

But Venezuela, thanks largely to the wonderful, profit making efforts of capitalists here and in Europe, BTW, has always been troubled. Comparing an attempt at redistributing wealth there to here is thus inane. The USA has now had, barring one Civil War, centuries of transferring government power peacefully. If the people get behind socialism here, things could be much different. We wouldn't need a strongman like Chavez to break the strangle hold of rich people, just a 2/3s majority in the Senate and the right Pres.

The American health care system is often said to be the best in the world. Indeed, rich people outside the US make much better use of "our" healthcare system than most Americans. And the gap in health stats between us and Canada, UK, France, Japan, Korea, Norway, Sweden, etc. continue to grow, slow but sure.

I often hear and read health care is 1/6 of the US economy. Other countries are smoking us in that department, so I don't see how the failings of the USSR are relevant when discussing what CAN work. I know you didn't mean to try to end any discussion of wealth redistribution here. But people play that card as if it's significant all the time on the TV and elsewhere IRL. That is why I feel compelled to criticize it here.

I think the fact that even well meaning DUers buy into that talking point is great evidence of how strongly the tiniest rich fraction of America controls our media and public discourse, and also of the necessity of socialism as an ideal of the masses.

Edit to add: Most socialist DUers don't need you to explain what cognitive dissonance is. Don't give up on reading.

[ChangoLoa]

249. Interesting comment

From one socialist to another, I'm curious about something you said. What makes you think that in Venezuela we needed "a strongman like Chavez to break the strangle hold of rich people"? Even if "he and his allies are tremendously rich, and progress for the people remains very limited by our standards"? Sounds like an antinomy. Why do you think our standards are lower than yours? Do you think income distribution is better in the US than in Venezuela? I believe it isn't if you measure it with the Gini coeff. Btw, Chavez wasn't our first "socialist" "revolution" neither.

[Threedifferentones]

252. As usual

In trying to educate someone else, I reveal my ignorance, and get educated myself. This is why I don't post a lot, lol.

What I should have said, and I think what I meant, is that I think Chavez has replaced the old elite with his new one, just like the Bolsheviks. Of course, I can't actually prove that, and I think I said it mostly to convey to the person I was responding to that I do understand that governments that say they are socialist and for the people often are not. I am suspicious of Chavez because of his wealth and his apparent desire to remain in control of the govt. forever, but I will gladly admit that one day I may realize great good has come out of him. I know only a little Spanish and even less about Venezuela.

Where you really blew me away though is by pointing out that American standards of living are higher precisely because of the capitalist exploitation we are decrying. I even mentioned that in my post, lol, how did I forget it a paragraph later?

I still don't think things are as clear cut as you seem to, though. If Venezuela's socialist movement is truly powered by the people, and not Chavez, why has Chavez pushed change that allows him to remain president forever? If Chavez isn't a strongman, why do people feel like they need him and not any duly elected president to keep international companies in check? Is it not possible that Chavez is, or has turned in to, a greedy asshole?

[ChangoLoa]

254. I share your disappointment

but from inside the "Revolution". Your questions are absolutely valid and I consider that he's become something very different from what the original intentions were. I would prefer without any hesitation a serious reform process aiming at institutionalizing social compromises for the long term. I stopped supporting Chavez when he tried to transform the country into a "socialist State", started claiming "Fatherland, socialism or Death" and putting 30mx30m posters with his face in Caracas. As a democratic socialist, I support the idea of a socialist government in a plural State. Let's see what options we have in 2012. Some are appearing as an alternative but in the actual context those are immediately called traitors and internal enemies of the revolution. I posted this today:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4390105

[SOS]

242. Pew poll on communism and the transition to capitalism

Re; "I don't think you will find many Russians who want to return to that sordid, ugly past called communism."
Actually about half the population....

Are people worse off today than under communism?
Worse: 45%
No difference: 15%
Better today: 33%

It is a great misfortune that the Soviet Union no longer exists:
Agree: 58%
Disagree: 38%

Approve of change to capitalism:
50%

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1396/european-opinion-two-decades-after-berlin-wall-fall-communism

[Cleobulus]

27. You do know that most of the industries and companies that were expropriated were...

closed by their owners(and fired all employees) by their previous owners, right?

[protocol rv]

86. That's not true either

You are using the wrong information. Most of the expropriated companies were functioning concerns. The government is desperate for cash, and it's moving back and forth, mowing down companies to take their earnings. In some cases, such as the service companies working for PDVSA, they were expropriated because PDVSA owed them money, and didn't want to, or was unable to pay. The idea was that, by nationalizing these services, the government would of course avoid having to pay the debts.

There was another issue involved, focusing on the nationalizations in Zulia, many of these companies had workers which happened not to support the communists - Zulia state is well known for a labor force which is largely opposed to the PSUV. So by nationalizing the companies and firing the contract workers, the government sent this sector of the unionized labor force a signal, that they had better put their heads down or else the companies where they worked for would be nationalized, and they would be out of work.

You see, I am from Venezuela, so you can't sell that baloney to me. :-)

[Lagomorph]

153. You mean when they shut off their electricity?

Ya gotta run full shifts to meet production demands. If Chavez wants the companies to pay people to stand around and shout "Viva Chavez!" he should pay them, but it won't put food on anybody's table.

[dotymed]

28. Damn us destructive communists.

Everyone knows profits before people is the right way......:sarcasm:

[protocol rv]

88. Well, most of us know you communists make a mess out of things

And if you think it's possible not to think of profits, then you got a serious learning lesson coming ahead for you. ;-)

[Cleobulus]

91. You do realize that the Cold War is over right?

I find it really difficult to take anyone who calls anyone who disagrees with them communists seriously. And you claim to be educated!

[protocol rv]

96. I am educated, and you are indeed communists

I don't use communism as an insult. I use it to describe a political-economic system which arises out of Marxist theory. Since the Chavistas have expressly declared themselves to be marxists, and are firmly allied with a declared Marxist such as Fidel Castro, then I think the best descriptor is indeed "communist". There's nothing wrong with the name, other than it is associated with dictatorship. I happen to be an atheist, but I also think the fictional character known as "Jesus of Nazareth" was a communist character, and I don't mean it as an insult.

Regarding the cold war, that was a conflict between the US and Soviet Empires, which the US Empire won. The Soviet Empire collapsed because its economy was communist, highly inefficient, and it could not withstand the shock of lower oil prices after 1986, the Chernobyl incident, and the cost of the war in Afghanistan, while devoting so much of its economy to manufacturing weapons in a race with a much wealthier competitor.

The collapse of the Soviet Union, however, did not mean the end of history, as my dear friend Francis Fukuyama claimed. The neocons were wrong, and there's a tendency in homo sapiens to re-create a balance. Chavism is part of the response to US imperialism, which in turn was driven to a peak by the US elites thinking they had won the end game, without realizing the game is eternal.

However, Chavism is like a pimple in the US empire's arse. There are bigger players in this game, China, Russia, the European Union, India, and possibly Brazil. Venezuela in all of this is just a pawn for the great players. So no, this internal issue within Venezuela isn't really part of the cold war, it's more of a domestic fight. The US couldn't care less about Venezuela's oil, production is down, and there are other sources to replace it. And Venezuela, as it is, while it is a pain in the behind for the empire, can be shown as a useful example for other Latin American nations to behave - the Venezuelan economy is collapsing, and I don't think we're going to see an IMF rescue. And the Chinese will lend money, but they are greedy, and they, like any other imperial power, will want to set their claws on Venezuela's flesh.

[Cleobulus]

97. Uhm, you have no fucking clue, do you?

Seriously, I already stated I'm not in Venezuela. Here we use terms like communist and socialist, or I should say our right wing uses them, as insults and scare tactics. They call Obama both, regularly.

[protocol rv]

139. I know, it's pretty funny

Obama is centrist from my point of view. Since I am not American, I do lack a certain understanding of the nuances. But I consider myself an expert in US politics, because I went to college there and I follow your politics to some extent. Calling Obama a socialist is very funny, but it is to be expected from the American right, which has become very extreme and dominated by Fox News extremists and some very funny characters like Sarah Palin.

Here in Venezuela, the government has announced itself to be marxist, which means communist. Their actions are destroying the economy, and this country is unlikely to ever recover fully from the damage they are causing. Consider us, in the future after we do manage to end the communist rule, we may still be like East Germany, which after 45 years of communism, even though it has received a lot of aid, still lags behind West Germany in many economic indicators.

I would also suggest you clean up your language, they will censor your coarseness if you don't watch out.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Regret My New Name]

164. Why is capitalist-bashing okay, but not red-bashing? Why is it considered bashing either way?

Not agreeing with a economic system is not bashing. What he said in his post (wrong or right) is not much different than some of the anti-capitalist posts on here. I for one don't have a problem with people having their own opinions. In fact, I come to DU so that I can read various view points and opinions. You seem to think they should be limited. Am I wrong?

[protocol rv]

172. Thank you for the endorsement, my friend Regret

I'm not really "bashing". I'm not emotional about this, and merely limit myself to pointing out facts, and add my editorial opinions at times. I am a lot more emotional when I discuss issues such as the Palestinians versus the Zionists.

Our communist friends seem to be afraid of being called communists. I really don't get it, they dress in red, applaud communism, and yet they seem to be afraid of being associated with it. Maybe it's because communism developed such a poor reputation as a result of the human rights abuses in the Soviet gulag?

[JNelson6563]

233. I may be wrong but

I'm guessing that the practice of slapping labels on everything and everyone might be what is causing the offense here. I see you take some pains to engage in intelligent discussion, you should resist the temptation to label and call people communists and your points will be better received.

Julie--here to help

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lagomorph]

150. Show me a communist government....

that hasn't had to revert to market capitalism to get their economy large enough to support their population.

They seem to have a fondness for reducing their populations to the point that they can feed most of them, most of the time.

[cowman]

154. You are so right

China is a perfect example of that.
BTW, Hello fellow Viet Vet.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. Funny. Same thing was said about the oil industry. It forgot to collapse

despite all that dreaded socialism. These companies could indeed be mismanaged, like for example the way BP mismanaged their Deep Horizon well, but even you would have to agree that mismanagement has very little to do with public or private control of an enterprise, right?

Recent capitalists management disasters:
(Q.E.D.)

[protocol rv]

92. I do not agree

Management is usually a lot worse in a public enterprise. BP indeed showed itself to be mismanaged, but it is paying the price in a much lower stock price. The market is darwinian, if the stock price drops a bit more, BP will cease to exist, because it will be purchased and dismembered by a larger predator.

In the case of a public corporation, the government protects the mismanaged assets, and doesn't allow them to fail - public corporations do not declare bankrupcy. So the end result is to see public companies, as a general rule, be managed a lot worse. And this is seen in Venezuela, where all of the assets taken over by the government are producing a lot less now than before their takeovers.

[Warren Stupidity]

94. enron goldman sachs bear sterns merril gm chrysler ....

the list goes on and on. Dude: the global market failure happened two years ago, free market fundamentalism died as a valid theoretical framework due to the intercession of reality. Get over it.

[protocol rv]

176. Nobody is talking free market fundamentalism here

At least I'm not. The capitalist system is alive and well. There are shocks and tune ups needed, but the fact that companies go belly up is precisely what makes the system work so well. It's darwinian. In a system where the government owns the corporations, those mistakes happen even worse, but they are covered up. I assure you, I know because I have been inside, and I have seen how it works. Or how it doesn't work. :-)

[Flaneur]

126. "All you communists." Joe McCarthy rises from the grave.

[Greyhound]

147. You are a Venezuelan that attended university in the U.S., have I got that right? n/t

[protocol rv]

175. Yes, maybe

The way it is around here, they could come arrest me or beat me up for criticizing the government. So this is all I have to say about that.

[dotymed]

207. IMO, you are a former elitist

who is pissed that his "inheritance" went to people who needed and deserved it. Your "Darwinism" is great for a sociopath. Fortunately, the masses of people, have been experienced social Darwinism and realize that for a compassionate world, social darwinism, like unregulated capitalism is a cruel and unjust system. That is why I agree with so many of your Presidents policies. While they are being undermined at every step by people and countries who, like you, believe in the subjugation of the masses (hence the inflation and other externally and internally imposed financial difficulties), I hope that the world can learn that a nation that practices this subjugation through wealth and power, are greedy sociopaths who care about themselves to the exclusion of the basic humanity inherent in all.

[Name removed]

251. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SpiralHawk]

2. "Cool. Power to the people, and stuff." - Iron Man (D)

[protocol rv]

12. How cartoonish

Sometimes I wonder, do they teach anything in the US nowadays?

:eyes:

[dotymed]

4. I guess

I'll have to research this. Of course the AP article doesn't mention how Chavez plans to help the impoverished of his country through this action. So far, he has been pretty damned successful in improving those people lives. Of course to the wealthy corporatists this just proves what a tyrant he is. I see another coup attempt.

How can a person like this have the support of the majority? In America, the vast majority are impoverished. They would never allow companies to be expropriated so they could earn living wages. Hey, it's all supposed to be about profit at the expense of the expendable. Unregulated capitalism is to be worshiped. How else can we reach total feudalism?:sarcasm:

[protocol rv]

6. Doty:: He doesn't have the support of the majority

The polls taken since late las year show he no longer has majority support. The nationalized companies do not raise worker pay, what is seen is a change in ownership and deteriorating conditions for the workers - usually seen as spotty payments, and less safe operations. Also, since the business is under new management, and the management is designated by politicians, they tend not to perform well, so the business runs down and produces less. Finally there's the issue of compensation for the nationalized asset, the owners usually go to arbitration, and the government owes billions of US dollars in compensation it hasn't paid. Eventually, international courts will award damages to the ex-owners, and those ex-owners will take over Venezuela owned properties outside of Venezuela. Citgo, for example, is likely to fall into ExxonMobil's hands in a couple of years.

[Cleobulus]

20. According to a survey by IVAD, at the end of last year, he enjoyed at least a 60% approval rate...

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/5049

Do you have sources that refute this?

[fascisthunter]

23. hehe... still waiting

[protocol rv]

47. Yes, I sure do, sorry to keep you waiting, I was making coffee

"The popularity poll have nots are led by Venezuela's Hugo Chavez who has suffered a severe dip in his once-soaring ratings as his country has been beset with energy shortages and street protests linked to his increasingly autocratic rule."

http://www.andeancurrents.com/2010/02/south-american-president-approval.html

"President Hugo Chavez's popularity has slipped and a majority of Venezuelans view the situation in their country negatively, according to a poll published Tuesday. The survey by the Caracas-based polling firm Datanalisis found that 46 percent responded positively when asked how they view Chavez's presidency, down from 53 percent a month earlier. The survey, published by the Venezuelan newspaper El Universal, also found that 59 percent said they saw the situation in the country as negative. The results are based on the responses of 1,300 randomly selected Venezuelans questioned between Sept. 23 and Oct. 8. The poll had a margin of error of 2.5 percentage points."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=8928559

"Chavez's popularity slipped from 61 percent following his February 2009 referendum victory to 43 percent in February 2010. More than 65 percent of respondents in the latest monthly poll think that Venezuela is in a "critical situation." Chavez's approval ratings remain well above the lows of 2003, when he survived a coup attempt and his support dipped to around 30 percent. But with Venezuela's economy running on fumes and the government unable to turn things around, Chavez's numbers will probably sink further."

http://eurasia.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/04/15/the_lights_are_dimming_on_chavez

:beer:

"We all had a feeling that progress was coming," said Campos, a 49-year-old father of two. "But Chavez's plans have been a debacle and things have only gotten worse." Campos personifies the disaffection gnawing at the leftist president's base of support: blue-collar workers. It's largely responsible for the slide in Chavez's approval rating to its lowest level in seven years, according to a survey published last month by pollsters Alfredo Keller and Associates of Caracas, the capital.

Chavez's decline in popularity has breathed new life into opposition candidates eyeing September's congressional elections. Although Chavez, now in his 12th year in office, has outmaneuvered them in the past, often by gaming the state machinery in his favor, candidates leveraging the discontent could capture up to half of the National Assembly seats this fall, analysts predict."

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/03/world/la-fg-venezuela-chavez-20100504

"While the world has been preoccupied with the crisis in Haiti, Latin America has quietly passed through a tipping point in the ideological conflict that has polarized the region -- and paralyzed U.S. diplomacy -- for most of the past decade. The result boils down to this: Hugo Chávez's "socialism for the 21st century" has been defeated and is on its way to collapse. During the past two weeks, just before and after the earthquake outside Port-au-Prince, the following happened: Chávez was forced to devalue the Venezuelan currency, and impose and then revoke massive power cuts in the Venezuelan capital as the country reeled from recession, double-digit inflation and the possible collapse of the national power grid."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/24/AR2010012402379.html

[Cleobulus]

51. Let's assume the opposition wins a significant fraction of the seats...

in the Assembly in the fall. Assuming these polls are accurate of course, will your side stop the bogus exaggerations about Chavez the Dictator?

[HillGal]

166. Bogus? what more does this man have to do to make you open your eyes? where's the journalistic

freedom? you criticize Chavez you're thrown in jail under bogus charges. How much more proof do you need?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela

Seriously, are you Sean Penn?

[protocol rv]

173. Will our side stop the bogus exxagerations about Chavez the Dictator?

Well, we will of course respect the President. I always do. You won't find anywhere a comment where I say he's a dictator. I do believe he is keen on concentrating power in his own hands, and is convinced he is a genius. Also has a tendency to insult the opposition using a fairly coarse social style. But you know how it is, a politician who is pandering to his core constituents, when those constituents are coarse and ill educated, has to get down in the sewer with them. So I see the stylistic approach strategy.

Regarding what the opposition will do if it wins a majority in Congress, it's hard to say, because I am not an opposition leader. I would use the opportunity to launch investigations regarding corruption, because that's a serious problem. Other than that, I would try to work with the president, and just tag along so he can continue to show his ability to mismanage things. This way his popularity will continue to drop, and the communist PSUV will lose the elections in 2012.

Remember, this is politics, and in the political world, the idea is to make the other side come in second. The regime is down on its luck, with a lousy economy, the power cuts, and high crime being the things that cost Chavez popularity. So the opposition should focus their actions so that people can keep remembering Chavez is responsible for their problems, and they will vote accordingly. Once Chavez is gone, there will be a need to change the laws to make the country a more normal country. And we definitely need to change the constitution to make it impossible for anybody to run for president more than once. This issue is important, to make sure there's no individual which can become another Fidel Castro or Papa Doc Duvalier.

[Cleobulus]

186. Jesus, you are like a gold mine of elite contempt for the poor, I love it...

good luck winning elections with THAT attitude!

But you know how it is, a politician who is pandering to his core constituents, when those constituents are coarse and ill educated, has to get down in the sewer with them.

[JNelson6563]

234. I kind of noticed that too.

I remember when Bush came to town in 04. The streets were packed with people who hated him. Lined the motorcade route just to flip him off or whatever. There were two women with their tween daughters, supporters of little boots. The daughters were proving their breeding, as it were, by commenting on the crowd. Everyone was casually dressed and it was a hot day. The snooty remarks about them sickened me. After a few minutes I decided to find a better spot and as I left I leaned in her direction and said "They're called 'voters' sweetheart". Some pretty red faces.

This post & the author you comment on remind me of that. I'd wager we're in the presence of a contender for best dressed protester last time we sent the spooks down there to fuck with Chavez during Little Boots' time. ;-)

Julie

[dotymed]

32. Which poll?

Who conducted it? The American Enterprise Institute? I would like to access it.

[dotymed]

33. Which poll?

Who conducted it? The American Enterprise Institute? I would like to access it.

[protocol rv]

50. See some results above

I don't need polls, by the way, I am Venezuelan, and my main indicator is the comments made by people when we play dominoes on Saturday nights. Everybody I know is fed up with the crime, inflation, corruption, power cuts, and lack of jobs. You know how it goes, it's time to vote the bums out of office :-)

[Peace Patriot]

119. I'm bookmarking that one, Protocol rv! "I don't need polls...I am Venezuelan..."

--and you gage public opinion of Chavez on your domino pals on Saturday night. How many is that? Two? Three? Four?

I wonder when your opinion of polls took a turn for the worse. Was it when Penn & Schoen's false poll, commissioned by the rightwing, saying Chavez would lose the 2006 election and prepping false election fraud charges and another coup attempt, was exposed as bogus--a prank that broke up the Penn & Schoen partnership (--a high end Washington DC polling and political advice scam, whose surviving partner, Mark Penn, ended up running Hillary Clinton's political campaign, until it was revealed that he was a paid agent of the bloodsoaked Colombian government)?

Or is it elections themselves that you don't like--since, with Venezuela's honest, transparent, internationally certified election system, the Chavez government keeps getting elected, by big margins? Those numbers must make you and your domino pals pissed as hell. Best to deny them and grouse among yourselves--or blog at DU--a forum for progressive and activist U.S. Democrats--instead of trying to convince your fellow and sister Venezuelans of the efficacy of your views.

Chavez has had the most consistent, long term, high approval ratings and election results of any democratically elected president in history, outside of maybe FDR. Even when he has DIPPED to 55%, his numbers have been the envy of most politicians. After ten years in office, with stratospheric ratings, a lag in popularity is no surprise. No leader can solve every problem. And every problem in the country will tend to accumulative on the shoulders of any president in office that long--some of them fairly, some not. One other factor in the upcoming National Assembly elections, the rightwing BOYCOTTED previous elections, with their typical, utterly preposterous stance that the elections were rigged. (Jimmy Carter, the EU and the OAS say otherwise--and the plain facts of the election system say otherwise.) So they are bound to win some seats if they make an electoral effort, which they are doing this time. No doubt, you and the corpo-fascist press will use this as fodder for your false narrative of Chavez's "failure" (since "Chavez the dictator" didn't work) and will try to extend this self-serving 'meme' to the next presidential election.

This is similar to the number being pulled on Obama--a narrative of "failure" that is already in train, by which Obama and "the liberals" will be blamed for the horrendous looting of the Bush Junta and their other horrors--including massive deregulation, crippling of the federal government's oversight agencies, and emergency services, two wars of choice combined with big tax cuts for the rich, and so on. I have many arguments with Obama but one thing I know for sure: He was saddled with the WORST set of problems that any U.S. president has ever faced and to blame HIM while putting a fuckwad murderer and thief like Dick Cheney on TV as an honored guest is the most sickening display of dishonesty I have ever seen.

One BIG difference between the U.S. and Venezuela is that Venezuela has provably transparent elections and we do not. So whatever games are being played by our corpo-fascist rulers are sometimes hard to suss out. We have the double whammy of the monopolistic corpo-fascist propaganda machine they call 'journalism' and the easy--EASY!--capability to fiddle our votes. The international corpo-fascist press, the pro-corpo-fascist press in Venezuela and the CIA have been doing everything in their power to badmouth the Chavez government--NEVER EVER MENTIONING ITS RATHER IMPRESSIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS, and OFTEN putting problems (such as the drought and hydroelectric energy problem) into a twisted and unreal context.* This may influence the Venezuelan by-elections, although it has been very ineffective at doing so, thus far. But that influence is hard to gage. Here, it works in combination with 'TRADE SECRET' vote counting and the filthy campaign contribution/lobbying system--and we don't really know how much the corpo-fascist messaging influences voters (because we don't really know how they voted). Venezuela does not have this triple-whammy problem. They don't have the dirty money (except for covert contributions by the CIA, the USAID and multinational corporations, to phony non-profits or under the table). They do have transparent vote counting and other "best practices" election rules.

I would expect a gain by the rightwing of about 25% up to as much as 40% of the seats in the National Assembly--as an artifact of their merely deigning to join the democratic process. Chavez's polls and election results have long been in the 60/40 range. He and his allies have won every election in Venezuela since 1998, except for one complicated package of 69 amendments to the Constitution (which they lost narrowly). If the opposition gets close to 50% or gets a majority in the National Assembly, we will know that the Chavez government is in trouble. And I almost have to laugh at that. 50% approval HERE --and in a lot of other countries--is considered good. 50% in Venezuela, if it involves Chavez, will be treated like a CATASTROPHE for Chavez. But it won't be. It will merely mean that he should slow down on his "20th Century Socialism" and perhaps put more of his policies directly to the voters (as he has done before).

Chavez is a very strong leader in the FDR mold. It will be interesting to see how he handles rigorous debate with the rightwing in the National Assembly, if that is what occurs. The rightwing will likely win some seats but whether they can competently debate the issues is another question. They are known for their paucity of ideas--except for the rich getting richer and being "born to rule"--and for being whiney, hysterical, and coup-prone. The Chavistas seem to be more intelligent or should I say more articulate, on the whole. And Chavez is certainly both highly intelligent and highly articulate--and LIKES to debate. I have LO-O-O-NG wished for and often stated the need for a decent opposition in Venezuela. All leaders and governments need to be challenged, and ideally all brain power and creativity needs to be tapped to make a society function properly. It is Chavez's greatest contribution to Venezuela--also a contribution of the Venezuelan people themselves--that the poor majority has achieved a voice in government/economic affairs, and now have opportunities they never had before, in every field of endeavor, through education and bootstrapping. The Chavez government has actively encouraged maximum citizen participation and ground-up decision-making. Now may be the time for the rightwing to step up, and prove that they are not idiots or worse (traitors), and have reasonable, beneficial criticisms of the government and are worthy of public office. Unlike here, they have to prove it in Venezuela.



----------------------------------

*(Governments are there to address difficult problems when they arise; good governments try to solve difficult problems; is the Chavez government trying to solve this difficult problem of an unexpectedly long drought? are they ignoring it? are they lying about it? The answer is they got right on it! They are doing everything they can to solve it. The measure of a good government is not what difficult problems they face, but how they go about solving them, even if they can't solve them instantly or at all. But this has NOT been the way the corpo-fascist press and its rightwing echo in Venezuela has treated this story--nor any other story about the Chavez government. They don't even provide minimum fairness. Venezuela just lost a gas rig in the Caribbean with no loss of life and no environmental damage, due to the SAFETY REQUIREMENTS imposed by the Chavez government. Do they get credit for this? No! Chavez managers, regulators, engineers and workers should be brought in to consult on the BP spill. They are the closest, most logical source of help. Venezuela has been running a huge oil industry for decades without any major spill. Will they be consulted? Probably not. Too much State Department/CIA effort has gone into demonizing Venezuela, turning molehills into mountains, and trying to topple one of the best oil industry managers in the world, on safety issues and other matters. Not even Norway has such a good safety record.)

[HillGal]

148. Food rationing is going on in Venezuela just like it is in Cuba, now how is that good for the

poor in those countries? All those leaders are doing is enriching themselves and their cohorts, they don't give a hoot about the poor in those countries.

[Cleobulus]

149. Proof?

I searched, outside of a few rightwing blogs, I haven't found reputable news sources about this issue.

[HillGal]

162. Will Wiki do? how about Reuters?

Cuba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_Cuba

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1220877620091113

Venezuela

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-440455

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1686

[cowman]

163. Uh Oh

you just called this person out, be prepared

[HillGal]

165. I can't take the lies anymore, I don't think Cuba or Venezuela is something we should aspire to

become, between how the poor are treated in those countries and how those thugs enrich themselves and their friends on the backs of the poor, they need to be condemned.

[Cleobulus]

182. Again, I ask for proof, the CNN iReport is unsubstantiated, and the election report is from 2006...

and only mentions rationing once, and briefly, as in one word. I laugh at your concern for the poor, considering how the opposition in Venezuela treat them, indeed you can see the contempt the people here have for the poor, I'll call them supporters of wanna be dictator Pedro Carmona.

[HillGal]

200. You got your proof and there's plenty of proof, just google, you just can't handle the truth. NT

NT

[dotymed]

208. Wi ki is "proof?" lol

Wow, unbiased sources really are not your strong point HillGal. I can go on "Wi ki" and add, delete anything I want. Unbelievable.

[HillGal]

216. Then google can be your friend Doty, again, you and others don't want to face the truth

food rationing is going on now in Cuba and Venezuela, the leaders of those countries are wealthy beyond belief and they became wealthy on the backs of the people we're supposed to be caring the most about. I notice no comments were made about the Amnesty International link, why?

[dotymed]

238. Another Venezuelan peasant

heard from. You really must meet protocol rv? Hill

[ChangoLoa]

210. Please Cleobulos

Venezuelans are not such a primary people that you can divide us in chavistas and pro-Carmona. Things are way more complex in our country. Actually I feel we are being kept as hostages of politicians trying hard to divide us in two groups. It's their convenience. But our political diversity has always existed and it's still a precious thing and a necessary condition for our democracy.

[Judi Lynn]

185. Reuters Busted for Indecent Exposure: The Automobile Industry in Venezuela

Reuters Busted for Indecent Exposure: The Automobile Industry in Venezuela

In their report, “ANALYSIS-Venezuela car industry gridlock as dollars run out,” Reuters pays another shill to tell another half-story about Venezuelan affairs. In this “analysis” they shamelessly expose their indecency as a major news broker in western media. I'm writing this critique for Axis of Logic to call Reuters on what they pass off as journalism and help clarify what is really happening in the auto industry in Venezuela.

In 2009 there were approximately 5.6 million vehicles in Venezuela. From 2005 to 2007 new car sales were 1.15 million units with a further 350,000 being sold in 2008/2009. Thus, the number of vehicles on Venezuela’s roads increased at least by 30% in five years, even allowing for cars being put out of service. This is the reason for heavy traffic congestion in the cities and not necessarily due to cheap gasoline.

The consumption boom in all sectors from 2004 – 2008 was not only due to rising oil prices but also due to the fact that oil revenues came into the economy instead of being spirited away to off shore banks. Local banks were obliged by the government to grant car loans at 17% which is a real bargain in Venezuelan loan terms.

At the same time the private sector was booming and its growth outstripped the state sector (including oil) during these years. The economic and consumption boom, fueled by easier consumer credit and a proliferation of credit cards in the market, encouraged more people to buy new vehicles, most of which were imported using preferential dollars by the car dealers. Unfortunately for the consumer all sorts of tricks began to be played out to fatten up the dealers’ profits.

The first step back in 2005 was when there were many cases of customers buying a new vehicle and then not being able to take delivery…..unless you paid a cash premium of anything from US$2000 – US$5000 to the dealership. You would then have your car the next day. In other words, the customer bought and paid for the car but the dealer held it as ransom until the customer paid him a bribe for delivery.

In 2006 the dealers began to ration cars by hoarding them in huge parking lots and telling customers that there were no cars available since they had not received the preferential dollars from the government Exchange Control Commission CADIVI.

At that time, for example, the official price for a Ford Explorer on the Ford Venezuela web site was around Bs. 105 million (in old bolivares), or US$49,000. Not too far removed from the selling price in the US. However, with the “policy” of hoarding vehicles prices began to escalate and the vehicle in this example was selling for up to Bs. 250 million or US$116,000. In other words a total rip off but people were desperate and naïve enough to fall into this game.

The whole scheme was a mafia type operation between the dealers, banks and insurance companies. The bank would give you a loan for more than the official value of the vehicle and the insurance company would insure it at the inflated selling price.

The public lost and the dealers, banks and insurance companies cleaned up by fleecing the public. It was been estimated that excess profits made from this scheme in just over two years (2006 and 2007) amounted to more than US$20 billion not including the role in this scam played by the banks and insurance companies.

As you can clearly see, the “price distortions” referred to by Reuters have nothing to do with the official exchange rate. These have been caused by the dealers selling vehicles over and above list price. The second hand market has just followed the lead of the dealers.

More:
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5357

[ChangoLoa]

211. There has been a lot of scarcity not rationing.

Scarcity of milk, sugar and eggs, particularly. The rationing (quantities per person are limited) can happen in subsidized markets.

[protocol rv]

169. Inflation is 30 % and Venezuelan bonds are the highest risk in the world

I rest my case.

[davidinalameda]

5. let me see if I can get this right

Chavez couldn't come to an agreement with the rightful owners of the company so he took it?

isn't that called stealing?

[Dogtown]

7. Or, the foreigners looting the country

of it's natural resources can be viewed as thieves, & Chavez is defending the people from exploitation.


Remember, the "rightful owners" acquired their claims from the RW uber-capitalists ousted by the people with Chavez' leadership.

[protocol rv]

11. They were rightful owners

They didn't acquire their claim from uber capitalists. They invested their cash. I see there are some very interesting romantic notions, but a lot of the money being invested by these "uber capitalists" is raised by selling stock, which is rolled into mutual funds, which sell their shares to the retirement funds for organizations such as CALPERS and the various school districts in the USA. So the "capitalist owners", in many cases, are the little guys in the USA and Europe putting their hopes on a steady retirement check. And your dear communists are trying to steal their rights to a decent retirement, you may say. So you see, it's not as clean and romantic as you thinnk.

[Cleobulus]

16. You keep using the word "communists" I don't think it means what you think it means...

but let me ask you something, what do you think of the communal councils? Or the co-ops being formed out of many of the expropriated businesses? Oh, and I'm burning to know what you think of the coup attempt of 2002.

[protocol rv]

18. Some opinions

Communal councils: Have nothing to do with running businesses. They are a form of civic organization formed to improve civic performance in poor neighborhoods. They have had mixed results. I can't say what my involvement is in the comunal councils, because I must remain anonymous, but overall they are OK.

Co-ops formed from many of the expropriated businesses? That's not true. The expropriated businesses that count, the large corporations, are not given to co-ops, they are put in the hands of state corporations, with shares and everything. Please let me know of any businesses with more than 100 employees making over $1 million in yearly profits which were handed over to a co-op.

What do I think of the coup atempt in 2002? I assume you ask as a pointed way to signal that I'm a right wing sob. Well, I thought the coup was a mistake. Now that you got your jab at me, and I deflected it, do you have anything to say about yourself? What is your background? Where do you live? :-)

[Cleobulus]

31. Cacao Sucre, a sugar refining operation, layed off about 120 workers...

and closed its doors by its private owners. The workers formed a co-op that was rolled into another co-op of cane growers, whose members totaled over 3,000. The sugar refining factory was expropriated and the workers have been running it every since. But then again, maybe it just doesn't count to you.

[protocol rv]

57. Wrong example

Cacao Sucre was formed in 2005, using assets purchased by the government from a bank, which had taken over a bankrupt business. This wasn't a nationalization of an ongoing business, it was a re-activation, in 2005, of a bankrupt business. Therefore I'm afraid the answer is no, it doesn't count, first because it happened in 2005, second because it didn't make profits - I did say show me a profitable business given over to workers, didn't I? Third, because it had been closed for 8 years, it hardly qualified as a business at all, it was a shell company with very few assets, and the bank, which had foreclosed, was happy to sell.

By the way, since I am in Venezuela, and I can use the phone to call friends in Cumana, and today is Sunday, I may ask one of them to drive up to this business and tell us what's the current situation. My bet is that business isn't making profits anyway. I can't find anybody who rememebers any of its products on the shelves, or has seen any small trucks labeled with their name, or anything.

[JackRiddler]

240. The 2002 coup was a "mistake"?

Is that all it was? The word usually refers to tactical blunder, not inherent wrongness.

What was the mistake? That it failed? That it was attempted? Or that it was wrong?

Would you agree that it was a crime? Would you agree that the attempt to dissolve the legislature and judiciary, as well as the military involvement in the coup, indicated intent to set up a dictatorship?

Would you agree that the coup plotters should have been imprisoned? Did they commit crimes, or merely mistakes?

[Dogtown]

202. "Saying it doesn't make it so.

All you've done is post RW talking points.

RWers love to trot out the "little guys" hurt when capitalists are punished for their adventuring.

If the capitalist in charge of retirement funds didn't buy into exploitive 3rd-world adventures, these "little folks" wouldn't get hurt. Rich assholes gamble with their money, and only get "protective" of the small folks when their excesses become public knowledge.

Chavez is merely defending the "little folk" of his constituency. We should follow his example, and regulate investment so that the Moneyed Class doesn't get to gamble foolishly with other folks money. Retirement funds should be invested in safe and responsible venues; I don't want my retirement funded by the rape of indigenous populations.

"They didn't acquire their claim from uber capitalists." Again, so you say. It's well known, however, that foreign capitalists colluded in gaining control of South American resources by bribing rich South American capitalists.

The only romanticism in this thread is in pretending the rapacious robber-barons are defending the interests of small investors.

[Proletariatprincess]

8. Owners and governments are not equals.

Or shouldn't be. The pursuit of profits is not such a nobile endeaver that it should trump the public interest as it does in the USA.
Labor and owners, however, should be equal at the bargaining table. In the USA even that is not true.

[protocol rv]

10. Nice theory, but it doesn't work that way

This isn't an issue about labor and owner, this is an issue about replacing a private corporation as owner, with a public owned corporation, as owner. I assume you have the romantic notions that workers will own the assets, but that's not the way it works. The legal set up is fairly straightforward, the government becomes the shareholder, and names new managers - usually people associated with the government, their relatives, or close friends. They also start stealing, and there's significant corruption involved. As far as the workers are concerned, they end up losing, because the owner, being the state, has a lot more power to reduce their pay. And how is paid reduced? The government has such lousy economic policies, inflation is in excess of 30 % per year. So all they have to do is NOT give periodic pay raises. In some cases, some union shops and workers have gone over 4 years without raises. So this is what happens in reality, wake up, copper top. The public interest is served by the pursuit of profits, and the people benefit by taxing those profits. Under communism, which seems to be what you support, the workers get screwed, there's a new ruling class made up of communist party members, and they entrench themselves in power to be able to steal and become eternal rulers. This is why you see the classic result, presidents who remain in power forever, and then hand over to their relatives (examples: Cuba, North Korea). Greetings from Venezuela, and if you want to, come live down here, and live in this worker's paradise, and we'll move to the US, and work our tails off for the private owners :-)

[w4rma]

15. It definiately works that way in many situations. (nt)

[protocol rv]

17. Show me an example?

I'm not familiar with any real examples. Would you write for us the process as you see it, then describe an example where this happened, preferably a mid to large size corporation nationalized and given to the workers? I'm always willing to absorb new information :-)

[Arctic Dave]

25. Talk about romantic notions. Do you have any facts or just talking points?

How is the weather in Chicago?

Show me any extraction country who's assets are owned by other countries were the worker benefit and not the elite wealthy. Where do you think these profits are coming from, other then the backs of the workers.

Example: Africa.

[protocol rv]

171. Norway

Norway is an oil producing contry which allows private companies from other countries to work, and in general the proceeds from taxation are used for the benefit of the population at large. I'd say the profits are coming from the fact that Norway has a lot of very high quality oil, and they have learned the business very well.

Another country which has extensive foreign participation, all private, is Canada, where the population at large also benefits from such economic activities.

We can add the UK to the list, as well.

As you can see, developed countries with rational well managed governments manage very well. :-)

[protocol rv]

9. That is called nationalization

According to the legal set up, a sovereign power (meaning the Venezuelan government) can nationalize anything it wants, and it's not considered stealing. However, as I explained in a previous post, the nationalized businesses perform a lot worse, this hurts the country's economy. Also, there has to be compensation paid, and since the Venezuelan government is not prone to pay, then they are taken to international arbitration court. There are dozens of cases against Venezuela in arbitration at this time, amounting to billions of dollars. The claims will probably be accepted and this means Venezuela's assets abroad will be taken by the companies which lost properties in Venezuela.

Furthermore, there's a problem with overall lack of performance, they do work a lot worse, for example the nationalized electric system - a lot of which was private, has performed very poorly and the country suffers from rolling blackouts, which in turn drive down the economy when factories can't work as they should.

The economy right now is suffering a lot, there's hyperinflation, GDP is going down, the earning power of the population is dropping steadily, and the governmennt is losing popularity, the trend is very clear. We have elections in September, and the government is acting to create a crisis, possibly acting this way to instigate anti government riots which they can repress and use as an excuse to delay elections. This is going to be a very interesting period, because opposition leaders, knowing well what the government wants is to instigate street action, are telling the people to sit tight, and wait for the elections, vote the bums out.

But the elections are controlled by a government commission, and they use those infamous electronic voting machines, so many expect they will be rigged. Thus, one would forecast a very unstable period beginning in late September, and continuing as national strikes, riots, and a lot of people end up getting killed. Many of us are planning to be out of the country by then. This is a hopeless situation.

[jefferson_dem]

34. Of course it is...

But his "progressivism" sure is dreamy... :eyes:

And this thug's most vocal defenders were probably ranting like hell about Boosh's "unitary executive".

Typically, Hugo's critics will be accused of 1. being apologists for the "corporatists" or 2. being mis-informed by the corporate media or 3. not understanding what's been "lost in translation" or all of the above.

[cowman]

36. Oh yeah

that's typical of that Prick's apologists, wait for itttttttt, here it comes,3. 2, 1,,,,,,,,,

[EFerrari]

61. In opposition to your own fact filled thoughtful posts?

LOL

[Cleobulus]

73. Look at post 66, this poster hates the poor. n/t

[cowman]

123. You hate the poor?

Now we know what kind of person you really are.
If you meant me, I've probably given more to charitable orgs. than you ever will because I'm in a financial position that I can give generously, So in the infamous words of my granddaughter, yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah,blah

[Cleobulus]

137. So what are you, a libertarian who thinks that the poor should rely on your oh so...

generous spirit? :eyes:

[cowman]

142. Nope. I'm a solid Dem

who believes that Govt. can't solve all problems. A mixture of govt. + private charaties is the answer. Private orgs. far outdo govt. entities when it comes to helping the poor and homeless.
Ahhhhhh, are you mad because I called you out and made you look foolish?
Making fun of my generous spirit is really mean spirited of you.

[Cleobulus]

146. Oh shit, I can't believe you said this...

Private orgs. far outdo govt. entities when it comes to helping the poor and homeless.

That statement alone is so full of idiocy, I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh. Seriously, do you have ANY fucking clue as to WHY most western nations became welfare states to begin with, because PRIVATE orgs cannot provide all the help needed, its simply impossible.

[cowman]

151. Oh shit I can't believe you just said that

read my post again, I said govt+ private orgs.
reading is your friend.
You know, your not going to change my mind that chavez is a corrupt thug and I'm not going to change your mind that he is second comming of Christ, so, have a great fucking life and lets go our seperate ways and when, not if, but when the Venezuelen economy collpases then I can say, see I told you so, I pray to whatever gods there are that it doesn't happen but the writing is on the wall

[cowman]

152. You know

the Venezuelen economy reminds me of the California economy, Chavez wants to do everything for everyone just like CA. and they are overspending like crazy and thats why both economies are on the verge of collapse.
You may disagree and thats fine, thats your right

[protocol rv]

174. California doesn't have 30 % inflation

I would really love to see us have an economy like California's. Ours is in much worse shape. California, of course, is a basket case. Maybe you can encourage the San Andreas fault to jiggle a bit so California will float away and become the People's Republic of the Pacific :-)

[EFerrari]

198. No, that's not true. That's a myth promulgated by the American right wing

that was started by Ronald Reagan.

[dotymed]

209. At least

we are considered "romantics." They probably don't rank so high on the Darwinian scale though...probably right below amoebas.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. 4) naive about the modern history of Venezuela.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. No it is not. See Eminent Domain. nt.

[jakefrep]

253. Ordinarily, yes.

But to some it's OK for socialists to steal shit from people/entities we don't like.

[robcon]

13. That'll get the iron workers to work. NOT.

There's a reason Venezuela is the most likely country/region to default on its debt, (based on the interest rate spread on that debt)...

1. Venezuela
2. Argentina
3. Greece
4. Pakistan
5. Ukraine
6. Dubai/Emirate of
7. Latvia, Republic of
8. California/State of
9. Sicily/Region of
10. Iraq

http://www.cmavision.com/market-data

[protocol rv]

21. Indeed, and the bond spread is causing a currency problem

The bond spread is so high, the government is having problems borrowing money, even though the debt to GDP ratio is not as bad as in other nations. The problem is the trend, they are running down forex reserves so fast, and raising debt so fast, the market took their pencil and extrapolated the trend, and realized these guys are like a runaway train headed for a 500 ton granite boulder.

This has led to the recent forex panic, and the government running around blaming "speculators" for the loss of the bolivar price in the parallel market. The real problem is their lack of dollars - which they borrow - to satisfy demand. There's nothing like a communist to misunderstand the simple workings of a market.

[JDPriestly]

141. I am not a Chavez fan. I am not a communist. I think Chavez is mostly kind of enamored if himself.

He survives because of his ability to mesmerize a broad section of the population.

It seems to me, however, that the only alternative being offered to communism is a sort of twisted version of capitalism which is as corrupt as communism has been in the countries in which it has been attempted.

Corruption is the problem. Regardless of the economic system, once those with control and therefore money can pay off governments, there can be not only no justice, but little real economic progress.

Corruption is the reason that BP was able to violate safety regulations in the Gulf.

Corruption is the reason that Chavez can't make Venezuela work.

Corruption is the problem in Greece, in the UK, everywhere.

And corruption takes hold when ordinary people are kept in the dark.

Does Chavez govern in the open?

Do you think that the party that is running against Chavez will govern with transparency?

Obama promised transparency, but the forces that accumulate wealth through corruption make passing laws that insure transparent government as difficult as possible.

How would a replacement for Chavez (and there will be one) approach transparency?

(I would say that Chavez has feigned transparency. That is one of the secrets of the length of his governing term.)

[cowman]

144. I think

you hit the nail on the head and him nationalizing corp. scares off investors which in turn makes the economy shrink. So in a way he is responsible because he refuses to reign in the corruption and the out of control spending. Gee, where have we heard that before?

[Union Yes]

14. Viva La Chavez!

[protocol rv]

22. Learn Spanish

You just insulted the man.

[xsquid]

26. Jaja, viva la chavez. Pinche gringo. nt

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Common Sense Party]

205. Some men need insulting.

:rofl:

[Codeine]

69. *facepalm* nt

[fascisthunter]

24. I love seeing the right freak out over this and call it communism... lol

we should be doing this here. It would teach the upper crust a valuable lesson...

Anyone have a record of this companies' business practices, how well they treated the workers, and how much they paid. ALso, how about a better summary of what was being negotiated and why... thank you.

[cowman]

35. I've worked

for the same employer for 35 years and make a very good living and I'm not in management. I happen to be a Firefighter/Paramedic for the city of Las Vegas, NV and I'll bet the vast majority of Americans would rather stick to the free market then what that prick Hugo has done to the beautiful country of Venezuela

[provis99]

122. I agree! privatize the fire department and the cops!

Private mercenaries work better than the army, and cost less! Long live free enterprise!:sarcasm:

[cowman]

124. Another dumbass comment

[fascisthunter]

158. oh, so you work for our socialized fire department

yeah, keep repeating the bullshit lie about a free-market. Guess what, there is no such thing, only for dolts. What you support is fascism...

The people should ALWAYS get the upper hand over corporations... that's a democracy!!! When one's needs harm more people than help, you have no right to even bitch. For me and most Americans, We the People come first, not the other way around.

[cowman]

161. Hey genius

When we run on an accident or transport someone to the hospital, we charge them, in addition, when we respond to a structure fire, we bill the owners insurance company, we also charge when we conduct fire inspections. That is free market.
Before you open your pie hole, know what you are talking about. Yes the city of Las Vegas pays my wages but most of those wages come from the billing that the city does.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

190. LOL. What a complete load of bullshit.

The 2007 L.V. budget shows receipts in the neighborhood of low teens(millions) for EMS transport and Fire Safety. Salaries/benefits alone are in the 104(million) range.

Typical "free market socialist" sucking on the public teet who doesn't know how his bread is buttered.


http://www.lasvegasnevada.gov/files/CLV_Final_Budget_2009_with_Cover.pdf

BTW, make sure you park that city-paid-for-vehicle in the back while you fuck around on the city's dime while sucking on the public teet.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/chief_-be-aware-of-perceptions-85026097.html

LAS VEGAS FIRE DEPARTMENT: Chief: Be aware of perceptions

Firefighters urged to avoid gym while working and not to 'abuse sick leave'

By LAWRENCE MOWER
LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL Las Vegas fire chief's e-mail
The Las Vegas Fire Department chief is urging his firefighters to avoid spending time at the gym during work hours and not to "abuse sick leave" as his department battles poor public perception during its stand to avoid pay cuts and layoffs.

The chief's Feb. 10 e-mail to all staff, obtained by the Review-Journal through a public records request, sheds light on the department's struggles to win over the public and bureaucrats.


"Spending 2-3 hours a day at the gym like some crews do is just the kind of actions that tear us down," Fire Chief Greg Gammon wrote.

The image of firetrucks sitting in gym parking lots for hours is one of the biggest complaints Gammon has heard from the public, he said last week.

[fascisthunter]

212. BAM!! Thank you

[fascisthunter]

213. not a genius just too informed for that BS

[protocol rv]

39. It is called communism

The government has declared itself to be marxist. It is communism.

Regarding the companies' business practices, there has been no claims agaisnt them for illegalities. The workers were fully unionized, they were paid the agreed to wages plus benefits. If you want to find the pay scale, you would have to research the union contract, if you are interested, I can help you do so, but the documents are in Spanish, so you would have to speak the language - I do like to debate politics, but I don't offer translation services.

What was being negotiated? The money to be paid by the government for the nationalized assets. The government has nationalized a lot of businessses as they march on towards a communist society, so there's a good record of their tactics: In the case of small companies owned by Venezuelan nationals, they don't pay at all. Some of the owners have committed suicide. Because the courts are not independent, they have little legal recourse.

In the case of corporations or businesses owned by foreign companies, if the companies are incorporated so they have legal protection OUTSIDE Venezuela, they proceed to negotiate. The government position is to offer a take it or leave it amount, threaten the business owners, and also launch investigations to put pressure on the owners to settle. They also have paid agents within the unionized labor force who proceed to create wildcat strikes and other problems, to make sure the business is unprofitable and easier to take down. If there's no agreement reached, and most of the time there isn't, then the case goes on to international arbitration. There are several billion dollars in play in these cases at this time. When the government takes over, it doesn't raise wages, and in many cases the workers have complained safety and maintenance of equipment have suffered. The end result is a rundown business with a disatisfied labor force.

Some workers' groups, having seen what is happening, are now picketing and closing ranks around nationalized businesses, to stop the government authorities from entering the premises. This is happening for example in Barquisimeto, at the Pepsi bottling plant.

By the way, all of this isn't a big mistery for the population, and the government has been losing popularity in the polls. We have elections coming in September, and the communist party, known as the PSUV, is looking weaker every day :-)

[Cleobulus]

48. Wait, your side isn't going to boycott elections again?

And will actually go through the democratic process? Let me guess what your side is planning, first, shoot Chavez, second, oppress the poor. How am I doing, or are you going to pretend you care about the majority of people in Venezuela?

[protocol rv]

62. Wrong guess

First, unite to provide a solid front, a single candidate per district to go head to head against the communist candidate.
Second, once the election is over, use the Congress to investigate corruption and block moves to abuse the judiciary.
Third, continue solidifying the united front to take the Presidential elections in 2012, and drive the communists out of power.

Right now, I'm afraid to say, the main emphasis is in using chemotherapy to get rid of the communist cancer. Hopefully the united front will stay united and create a quality plan. I would copy what Lula did in Brazil, or, if he loses the elections in Colombia, ask Antanas Mockus to come over and serve as a senior advisor to the President, who hopefully will be a lot humbler and make better decisions than the current one.

:-)

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleobulus]

68. Why not, that's what they attempted to do in 2002, why should they change now? n/t

[protocol rv]

83. Why change now?

Simple, inflation is 30 %, crime is up, and parts of Carabobo state are out of power for two days in a row.

So the key is for the opposition to stick together, and wait patiently. You guys are doing a wonderful job screwing it up, and there's very little you can do between now and September, if we factor in the way you ruin things, and the way money is wasted buying weapons and giving handouts to Cuba. You just lack the cash to buy yourselves out of this hole you dug yourselves. Can't sell bonds at a decent spread either, and the international reserves are dangerously low. PDVSA's oil production is dropping, you know very well their production figures are fake. And you got the stupid idea that selling gasoline cheaper than water will keep you popular? LOL.

So who is going to win the elections if they are indeed free and fair? Guess? ;-)

[Cleobulus]

109. Hmm, found something with a rather different point of view...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/may/06/venezuela-greece-economic-crisis

Response?

[protocol rv]

221. I posted a lenghthy rebuttal to this piece in the Latin American forum.

Feel free to look it up. but the gist of it is very simple, the ratio of debt to GDP depends on the exchange rate you use. Also, the market doesn't use this ratio if it thinks the country is a high default risk anyway, because it's running out of money at a fast pace, and it's not rationalizing it's policies. This is reflected in the Venezuelan bond spread, which today ranks Venezuela as one of the highest default risks in the world.

However, don't take this to mean I'm recommending that you do not purchase Venezuelan dollar denominated bonds. The ones due prior to 2013 should be lower risk, and they are a good buy. For example, if you own Greek real estate, you should sell that and buy the Venezuelan bonds, and hold them till maturity. But don't put all of your portfolio in this vehicle, use say 2 % of what you have.

:-)

[jefferson_dem]

29. Despots suck.

Fuck Hugo.

[Cleobulus]

37. You are completely right, he's the worse despot ever!

What type of despot allows media companies to exist after they supported a coup against him? How many despots allow free, internationally monitored elections when they stand for reelection?

[cowman]

38. Allowed them to exist?

he's shut most of them down by not renewing their license. Typical of a Chavez apologist. How about jailing opponents, or is that OK by you because they are against his ruinous policies?

[jefferson_dem]

41. Using this poster's "freedom of information" standard...

DU itself would have been shuttered during Boosh's eight years. The rank hypocrisy is astounding.

[Cleobulus]

46. Uhm, DU had a strict policy of deleting posts that advocated for the overthrow of the government...

because that is ILLEGAL in the United States. Do you understand that, or do you want me to write it out in crayon for you to post it on the wall?

[jefferson_dem]

55. Oh.

Do you understand the different between a self-regulating industry and the big brother government dictating which media outlets may or may not broadcast? While you might be comfortable granting exceptions based on whether the tyrant is one whose political goals you support, I'm not. A tyrant is a tyrant. Deal.

At any rate, based on the sour tone of your posts, it's no surprise you are cool with stifling dissent.

[Cleobulus]

70. Uhm, are you saying that the media should be free to advocate for the overthrow...

of the government?

[jefferson_dem]

140. I'm saying I'm not keen on letting any regime censor political information...

especially when opposition outlets are shuttered under the guise of some trumped up "claims of coup plotting". You wouldn't stand for it here in the USA. It's just as bad when "your dictator" does it.

[Cleobulus]

145. Oh for fuck's sake, never mind, you apparently are immune from facts...

like the media knowing about the coup BEFORE it happened, but what the hell, you know what you know, and that's all there is to it.

[jefferson_dem]

167. Disagreeing with Hugo (and you) = immune to the facts...

Typical(ly) lame. Hope you have a good one anyway.

[Cleobulus]

183. No, ignoring the facts is ignoring the facts. n/t

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jefferson_dem]

40. I'm not sure about your claim that he is the worst ever.

Still, shitty enough.

It shouldn't be up to any head of state to "allow" media companies to exist. They exist on their own right.

I think you mean "President for Life" want-to-be. Isn't his term set to expire in 2012, as determined via the "democratic process"?

[Cleobulus]

45. Why the fuck do people get into such silly exaggerations?

Seriously, Venezuelan elections are monitored internationally and certified as clean, and yet you have to put scare quotes in your post. Its difficult to take such uninformed posters seriously.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleobulus]

54. Yeah, the fucking rich, who can afford it, and good riddance to them. n/t

[cowman]

60. You know

a poor man never gave me a job or paid my wages and I suspect that a poor man has never given you a job. What do you have against getting rich? I make a very good wage because I worked hard for it and now in Sept. I will be rewarded for it with a very nice retirement package that me and my wife can live very comfortably for the rest of our lives? Do you have a problem with that? Most rich people worked hard for their money, granted, their are crooks, but for the most part, the rich are rich because they worked hard and people like you want to take their money away and give it to the poor which is absolutely bullshit.

[Cleobulus]

66. Now that I know your attitudes towards the poor, which are disgusting by the way...

ugh, never mind.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleobulus]

90. Yet you talk about Venezuela as some sort of paradise before Chavez entered office.

When the poverty rate was almost 60%, unemployment over 40%, combination of Military Juntas, dictatorships, and then extremely corrupt governments, a whole string of them, for the past 50 years, and you keep on talking about Chavez RUINING that "beautiful country".

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleobulus]

101. Wait, so what did he ruin?

Also, why this insistence on comparing Venezuela to Cuba, N.K. or the former Soviet Union? Those countries had a lot of power centralized into single party states, Venezuela is a multiparty democracy. I simply don't understand why you exaggerate things to such extremes.

[cowman]

108. Mutiparty democracy?

HaHaHa, your a funny person. You didn't answer my ?. where did I say or allude to Venezuela being a paradise before Chavez?
And I compare to these other countries because he is fast moving to the same system they had or have which ruined their economies.

[cowman]

100. And yet you don't live there

So I will believe someone who lives there before I believe you

[Cleobulus]

102. Hmm, interesting, but I'd believe someone who lived in a barrio before...

I'd believe someone who, in his own words is "middle class" which means something entirely different in Venezuela than it does here.

[cowman]

110. So your saying you lived in a barrio there?

Just because he MIGHT be middle class doesn't mean he's wrong. Chavez is a thug and even human rights groups have condemned him, but according to people like you, these groups are RW nuts unless they are condemning the U.S.

[Cleobulus]

112. You do realize the biggest human rights abuses in Venezuela are tied...

to the murders of campesinos, workers, and union leaders, right? Take a wild guess as to who is targeting them. Venezuela is NOT like the countries you mentioned because of one thing, neither Chavez, nor his party, have 100% control of the country, there are police, cities, and entire regions controlled by the opposition, in addition there is still a huge corruption problem that has yet to be effectively tackled.

You claim Chavez is a thug, fine, but the opposition isn't much better, indeed, they are much, much worse.

[cowman]

113. Nice dodge

You still haven't answered my ?. Where did I say that Venezuela was a paradise or even allude to it before Chavez? I'll wait.

[Cleobulus]

116. Alright fine, all you said was the Venezuela used to be, or is a beautiful...

country that Chavez is, for some unspecified reason(helping the poor?), ruining. You didn't mean like it was before 1998. There, are you happy?

[cowman]

125. Yeah I said

beautiful country, as in the country itself is beautiful. I never, ever said anything about the pre chavez govt. And it's fact that his policies have driven down the economy. Marxism doesn't work, just ask Russia.

[Cleobulus]

136. And again, stupid exaggerations that have no relation to reality...

and the idea that it was JUST his policies that have driven down the economy is laughable considering that Venezuela did NOT start the worldwide recession we are in. All countries are taking a hit right now.

[protocol rv]

131. Interesting take

The biggest human rights abuses in Venezuela can be found by reading Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. The murder rate in Venezuela is very high, and most of the victims are the poor, who are killed by other poor people. The central government does control 100 % of the country. It is true they had serious reversals in the 2008 elections, but these were local elections for mayors and governors. These opposition leaders won by using a platform which committed them to fight crime and provide better services.

The corruption problem is pervasive, and it is prevalent in the Chavez administration.

The opposition, although it's fairly toothless, is now uniting to present a single candidate in every race, so as to be able to defeat the communist side, known as the PSUV. The opposition, in many people's minds, is a better alternative, because the people are getting tired of high inflation rates, high crime rates, and lack of electricity. As they say, people tend to vote with their wallets. The nature of democracy is fairly simple, when a government has been in power for 10 years, and it doesn't improve things enough, then it is voted out of office. I think this is about to happen here in Venezuela.

Hope this helps clarify things

[Cleobulus]

133. You do realize the Communist Party of Venezuela is NOT a part of the PSUV?

I know you seem to be addicted to the word communism, but it would at least be less idiotic to realize that the PCV is NOT the same as the PSUV. They are member's of the current party's coalition, but a small part only, less than 3% of the vote. Indeed, Chavez has even criticized them, I know, a shocker.

[protocol rv]

170. But the PSUV is communist now

Chavez has changed his tune and radicalized his position over the years. As recently as three years ago, marxism never crossed his lips. Then we started hearing more and more about Marx, and his followers started sounding as if they had been brainwashed in a Havana training center. They even emerged with the slogan "Patria Socialismo o Muerte", which sounds very much like the "Patria o Muerte" used by Cuban communists. And of course we have communist "advisors" from Cuba everywhere.

I think it's proper to say the PSUV is just another communist party. There are of course certain differences, the abject way in which the PSUV party leaders kiss Chavez' behind is very similar to the personality worship of Stalin, Castro, and other "supreme leaders", but Chavism is also showing its unique branding. It morphs when its convenient, the paramount issue being strengthening Chavez' personal power, which is approaching that of Castro or Stalin.

I also wish to remind you, again, not to insult me. Just because we don't share the same ideas. This intolerance and insulting attitude you use is very typical of the extreme left in this site, and it detracts from the discussion. I won't get mad, but it makes people feel like they're reading garbage.

[Cleobulus]

184. OK, if you say so...

:eyes:

[protocol rv]

222. Did you notice their red shirts?

I think that shade of red they use is goofy.

Seriously, I don't know if you speak Spanish, but their language has changed a lot since Chavez got the amendment which allows him to run for President again. They are openly marxist now. I think the Communist party is just too intellectual to join the Chavistas, who are more pragmatic, and haven't got to Engels yet.

[Cleobulus]

134. Two of your statements make no sense...

I thought there was something odd here: The central government does control 100 % of the country. It is true they had serious reversals in the 2008 elections, but these were local elections for mayors and governors.

So, unless you are saying the governors and mayors are completely powerless, you just contradicted yourself.

[protocol rv]

223. Good deduction, my friend Cleobulus.

I'm starting to like you :-)

Indeed, the governors and mayors are powerless. I suggest you read about the case of the Metropolitan Mayor of Caracas, Mr Lopez, who was elected by the People, only to see his position disemboweled by the Chavistas. They invaded city hall, and have refused to let him use the offices. To make matters even worse, Chavez then proceeded to have the National Assembly rig up a new Vice Presidency, which is in charge of....Metropolitan Caracas. Thus, the government, which lost a lot of face when the capital elected an opposition leader, just dismissed the will of the people by gutting the mayor's office, and then in a sense replacing him with a Chavista picked by hand by Hizzoner himself. Today, most of the funds which are supposed to go to the mayor's office are diverted to this "Vice President" who then uses it as she sees fit (they named a woman).

So, indeed, the opposition leaders are powerless. In Venezuela, the power is held by whoever controls the National Guard, the political police, the Army, and has the means to get the money PDVSA makes. Chavez has those, so this pretty much means he can arrest anybody he wants to, the courts will do what he says, the national assembly will pass whatever laws he asks for, and the government will nationalize the property of anybody who dares stand up to the maximum leader.

[ChangoLoa]

214. Which union leaders have been killed in Venezuela? Do you have any examples??

Aren't you talking about Colombia?

[protocol rv]

224. He's honestly confused

I think he means Thailand?

[Catherina]

244. It was paradise. For the wealthy. n/t

[Hassin Bin Sober]

192. The poster you are responding to is a city employee sucking on the public teet.

Apparently he can't GRASP the concept that his salary IS paid for by "poor" people - at least in part.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

193. You mean the wages you earned on that free market fire department?

No poor people paying taxes, fines and fees, eh?

[Catherina]

243. Simply astounding n/t

[protocol rv]

72. I believe it's called brain drain

And it's mostly the middle class, professionals, people who speak foreign languages, or can get a visa to go work elsewhere. Thus the country is slowly losing its professional class, the educated, and so on. The exodus is accelerating as the living conditions become worse. If you are Venezuelan, I feel sorry for you, because we, the educated professionals, will indeed be leaving. And your red clad mobsters won't be able to run the generating plants, nor fix the elevators, nor do proper maintenance in the refineries and chemical plants. So, if you win the elections, just know your victory will mean nothing, you will ruin the country.

And if you are a foreigner, then I forgive you, because you know nothing :-)

[Cleobulus]

74. You smile while calling the majority of your country red thugs and ignorant.

:puke:

[protocol rv]

79. You are not the majority

The polls show you are the minority. And many who support you are indeed uneducated and ignorant. They think getting a handout now is what counts, and don't see the long term effects. So tell me, are you Venezuelan, or are you one of the imported gringos working for Venezuelanalysis? :-)

[Cleobulus]

81. Neither, I'm an outside observer, but I do find it illuminating how you view the poor in your...

country. Hold a lot of contempt for them, don't you?

[protocol rv]

225. Has nothing to do with poverty, my friend

I said "you are the red clad mobsters". The people around Chavez, the ones who control the levers of power, are not the poor. The poor, like in most societies, are just driven back and forth by those who have power.

If you look at the background of the people who do hold power, they are a mix of intellectuals, semi-intellectuals (many of them were trouble makers who didn't manage to finish college), military types, old union bosses, and relatives thereof. They are middle class to lower middle class, and their common factor is they like to feed. This means they are prone to be corrupt, or condone corruption. There is also a group which we can call the "Lina Ron" types, who like to use violence, and are from a lower class, hustlers, some of them used to be kidnappers.

This is a fact, jack.

[cowman]

49. Yeah

but he will manufacture a phoney crisis and declare martial law and make himself president for life. He's no better than that bat shit crazy Kim Il Jong or Castro or the former Soviet Union leaders, now there's an example to follow, because the former Soviet Union was a "workers paradise". the citizens of the former Soviet Union used to have a saying
(quote) if the government pretends to pay us, we'll pretend to work (unquote). chavez is fast turning this beautiful country into another Soviet Union

[Cleobulus]

53. Where the hell do you come up with this stuff?

He already went through the worst thing imaginable for an elected leader, a coup attempt that almost succeeded, and yet he hasn't set himself up to be president for life because of it. Also, look at what the post above is hoping for, that the opposition will win the upcoming elections, which may happen btw. When will people stop with these insane exaggerations and outright fabrications?

[cowman]

56. And when people like

you admit that he is nothing but a despot who is stealing the fruits of other peoples hard work? Nationalization is stealing if not compensated for it.

[Cleobulus]

65. But they are compensated for it...

When they cooperate with the buyout, is that not understood? A lot of factories and other businesses in Venezuela were closed by their owners, with thousands of people thrown out onto the streets, unemployed, as a form of protest, as it were, to the current government of Venezuela. So the government, where it can, bought a lot of these businesses out, and outright took the ones that didn't cooperate. There is nothing wrong with that.

[protocol rv]

75. No they are not compensated fairly

"Cooperate with the nationalization" means accepting whatever terms the government offers. It's as if you were given an offer by a Mafia lord, and if you refuse, they take you and put your shoes in a cement bucket, and throw you in the river.

Also, most businesses which have agreed to some form of compensation, have not been paid yet. There is something really wrong with that. You know, if you are unaware of the full cycle effects, you should understand the aftermath: nobody in their right minds will invest in Venezuela, which means the economy is going to suffer. I know there are claims of deals being made between the government and large multinationals to invest in Venezuela, but we are seeing a very interesting phenomenom, the deals are signed, but the companies don't invest anyway. Many observers think the companies are playing a delaying game, waiting for the Venezuelan economy to collapse, so they can extract even better deals from the government. Others think they are waiting patiently for the elections, and will not invest real money until after 2012, when they see if Chavez manages to stay in power, or the communists do get kicked out.

Although there is a plan to use the democratic system to force the communists out of power, I am of the opinion that the government, like most communists, will do whatever to hold power. Which means either the elections will be postponed, or something will be done to rig them - we do use electronic voting machines without a paper trail.

So my opinion is fairly straightforward, this is a sinking ship, and it's time to leave. As you will notice, I speak very good english, and I'm actively seeking visas to go elsewhere. :-)

[Cleobulus]

80. Uhm, no you don't, I saw the last elections, there was a paper trail...

can you ever be truthful? So basically you are saying you are going to complain that the elections are rigged when the opposition doesn't get a unanimous victory.

[protocol rv]

226. The paper trail wasn't audited.

If you look at the real record, you'll see the final results weren't posted either. Nor was anybody from the opposition allowed to audit this supposed paper trail. So if there's no way to get to it, there wasn't one.

It is said that, when he lost the Constitutional amendment, Chavez wanted to declare himself the winner, but there were people who felt the results were so clearly against him, and they refused to go along. One of them is said to have been Baduel, who is now in jail.

I doubt the elections will be really fair, but that's my humble opinion. But then, it's not uncommon for politicians to cheat. I think Bush stole the election in 2000 too.

[EFerrari]

64. Ignorance sucks harder. n/t

[protocol rv]

76. Tell them all about it

I'm sure you can set the record straight, and tell them all about the glories of communism, and what it achieved in the Soviet Union and Cuba

:-)

[jefferson_dem]

168. Perhaps...but not as much as blind "lock step" loyalty, apologetics for despots. n/t

[Cleobulus]

187. At least now you admit to be an apologetic for Pedro Carmona, the Dictrator wanna be. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

58. A little context might help here.

These industries are being renationalized. The privatization occurred in the late 80's and 90's as Venezuela, like many other struggling second world nations, fell under IMF World Bank control and was forced to privatize industries that had long been under public control. In Venezuela's case privatization was frequently carried out without even bothering to change laws prohibiting these transactions, in other words the privatizations were actually illegal.

Regardless, Tenaris SA will receive compensation for their legally re-appropriated interests in Materiales Siderurgicos.

[cowman]

63. I'll believe it when it happens

So far, the chavez govt. has a very bad track record on that.

[protocol rv]

85. They do have a very poor track record

The latest I've read is they owe about $13 billion net in unpaid claims. And some of them are very solid. My educated guess is all of PDVSA's assets abroad will be stripped away to pay these debts within 5 years.

[protocol rv]

77. That's not really right

many of the industries being nationalized are not industries privatized by previous governments, they are private businesses created via direct investment by foreign companies, as well as by Venezuelan nationals. Also, the record for compensation is very poor, either there is no settlement and the case goes to arbitration (and there are billions of US dollars in play at ICSID and other venues), or there is settlement and the government fails to pay anyway.

So, while the nationalization may be said to be "legal" - although I suspect that if the courts worked properly many of them would be considered illegal and unjustified, such as the take over of the La Francia building in Caracas, the net result is something we do not discuss much here: There will be less and less investment in Venezuela, Venezuelan bond spreads show it as a country with a very high risk, international reserves are being used up to prop up a weakening currency, and there's panic, brain drain, and currencly flight from a country everybody increasingly sees as a basket case ruled by incompetents.

[Warren Stupidity]

93. Matesi was part of Sidor and it was privatized under IMF/WB coercion in 1997.

And actually the now minority private stake in the renationalized sidor has urged that the rest of their supply chain, including Matesi also be included in the nationalization.

[protocol rv]

107. That is an example of one case

However, most of the nationalized industries were not former state enterprises. For example, the ventures providing high pressure gas to PDVSA in the Maturin areas were all created from the ground up by foreign investors. And those are now being contested in ICSID, which they are sure to win.

[Warren Stupidity]

115. I give up. You win too.

The topic here is this specific nationalization. Whenever facts get presented that do not fit your world view you just move on to some other discussion.

[Cleobulus]

117. Just remember, you are a communist too! Just like Chavez!

:rofl:

[bemildred]

121. Me! Me! I want to be on the enemies list too!

Forbidden thoughts, unsanctioned political opinions, taboo subjects, I have them all.

[bertman]

71. Now we'll finally get to use all those military bases we're building in Colombia. nt

[protocol rv]

78. LOL

There's nothing like a good bit of humor to lighten up the day. :toast:

[bertman]

180. Thanks. Humor in the tried and true form of Irony. The truth is: it's true.

:mad:

[protocol rv]

195. Sorry, what's true?

Do you think the US is going to use Colombian bases to invade Venezuela? Before you answer, would you do us a favor and check the map? Also check where the US has existing bases elsewhere, research the US navy capabilities, and read a little about US military total war tactics? After you do that, please confirm you really think those bases would be used to invade Venezuela, then I can explain to you why they are not.

[bertman]

231. What's true is that the U.S. could very easily use bases in Colombia to support an

attack(s) on Venezuela in support of "rebels opposed to Chavez".

I checked my map. Colombia is right there to the west of Venezuela--exactly where it was last time I checked. (And where it has been for many years).

The fact that Colombia shares a border with Venezuela makes it an ideal staging area for anti-Venezuelan government raids, resupply, rearming, and direct/indirect support.

Why anyone might assume that something like that could possibly happen is beyond me. After all, the Contras didn't "really" operate out of Honduran base camps when they were fighting the Sandinistas, did they??

Okay, protocol rv, please explain away.

[bertman]

250. protocol rv, where are you? I'm eagerly awaiting your explanation. nt

[Odin2005]

82. Well this thread was predictable.

[protocol rv]

84. Was it?

I suppose these sites are visited by communistoids and their opponents? It's so difficult to find a site to hold an educated debate. What's wrong with you Americans, you are so polarized, it's as if you were people from different planets sharing a small island.

[cowman]

95. Unfortunatly

here in states we have people here who think that Chavez could do no wrong. He could be murdering people and they would still make excuses for him. These people would gladly substitute our system for the one you presently have in Venezuela. I hope you throw out the bums in the next elections. Good luck and keep your head down.

[protocol rv]

103. Well, there are communists everywhere

I find lack of education in economics and history to be a prevalent theme everywhere. And I'm sure I could engage in a very heated debate with you about some things the US does wrong, such as invading Iraq ;-)

[cowman]

111. Oh you won't get no argument from

me about the stupidity of Iraq invasion. Back in 69 I spent a wonderful year in the vacation spot of a place called Vietnam which was just as stupid a war as was Iraq. My oldest daughter did 3 tours in Iraq, so, no heated debate from me. I'm on your side of this debate

[Flaneur]

132. You mean he could be behaving like Uribe?

[Forkboy]

105. "communistoids"

:eyes:

Yeah, you're not polarized in the debate or anything....

The funny thing is, you complain about it in others while willingly doing it to yourself.

[protocol rv]

130. Depends on the point of view

In my society, communistoid isn't an insult. I think Americans have a real problem with the word communist? You treat it as if it were an insult.

[bemildred]

89. Like moths to a flame. nt

[protocol rv]

104. Come on, you do like debate, don't you?

What would you do without me, live in an echo chamber? Don't I make your life more lively, drive your heart beat up a bit, so you are healthier? :bounce:

[bemildred]

114. This is more about entertainment, it doesn't really rise to the level of debate.

It's more like a sitcom or infomercial, or two infomercials interleaved with each other, or a Monty Python sketch about politics.

[cowman]

118. Very well put,

I may disagree with you on some subjects, but when your right, your right

[bemildred]

120. Thank you. nt

[cowman]

127. Would love to entertain more

but my wife and I are raising a baby House Sparrow that is demanding our attention right now. I know, I know, big, tough firefighter/paramedic has a soft spot. Well you all have a wonderful day and talk at you later

Peace Out:fistbump:

[bemildred]

155. Yeah, I know, I got mockingbirds. At least two pairs, living in my bushes. nt

[cowman]

156. Mockingbirds are beautiful

and very territorial. Our poor cat got attacked by a nesting pair when she got to close to their nest. I saw it happen and it was the funniest thing I have ever seen. Our poor cat didn't know what to do, she ran away as fast as her feet would carry her. Our little sparrow is feathering up really nicely now but releasing her is not an option as she has firmly imprinted on my wife and would not survive in the wild.

[bemildred]

157. Yep, I have to help drive off the bluejays now and then.

The mockingbirds harass pretty much anything that comes around, but I'm too big so I can get away with stuff. But I leave the nest alone. They eat lots of bugs, and I like that because I garden, anything that eats bugs is my buddy. But it would be very cool to have swallows or sparrows.

[cowman]

159. Bluejays are another

beautiful bird but here in So. NV. we don't have any because of the heat, we do have red breasted sparrows and lots of ring neck and wood doves and burrowing owls. As you can tell, I absolutely love birds, actually, I love all animals and I only shoot an animal with a camera.

[EFerrari]

189. This is more about distraction, it doesn't rise to the level of entertainment.

It's more like a chain saw going in the next yard, or a tripped car alarm, or two dueling car alarms or one of those ShamWow commercials. :)

[bemildred]

203. Oh, I can assure you that sometimes it does rise to the level of entertainment.

:-)

However, your point is well taken, there is a good deal of internet noise that serves primarily to prevent alternate points of view from getting a sober hearing. The role of trolls in preventing reasoned debate is as old as discussion boards, and it's a very effective strategy, but it becomes easy to spot: the insults, the name calling, the polarized framing, the reliance on "some say" and "everybody knows"..

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLPanhandle]

143. Well that's one way to nationalize an industry without having to pay

Especially when the government is in financial dire straits.

[protocol rv]

160. Yes, and they are in deep trouble

There have been articles in the media about Venezuela's debt to GDP ratio, but those articles miss two points: How is Venezuela's GDP measured, when the currency prices are controlled, and kept artificially high? This tends to over-represent GDP, and makes the ratio better than it really is.

Second, the debt to GDP ratio is valuable if there are market makers (bond buyers) who use it to decide whether to buy Venezuelan bonds. And today Venezuelan bonds are seen as a very risky proposition. In other words, the prospective bond buyers are seeing the government act in such a fashion, they don't trust their ability to pay the bonds in the future. Thus the ratio is inconsequential if there's no buyers, or the buyers demand a very high interest rate (which is hovering between 13 and 14 % per year).

This is a very volatile situation,and we have seen the government react in the past to plug holes which appeared in their economic policy. Such hole plugging gave them a breather, but eventually cause more problems down the line. And they are running out of ad hoc solutions now. What will happen? They will impose very tight currency controls, try to clamp down on capital flight. This will cause the emergence of a virulent black market - when you tell people they can't take money out, they panic and they move it whichever way they can. This in turn weakens the economy as bolivars have to be used to buy dollars at ever higher prices, which means businesses looking for money to buy products to import will be seeing their operations grind to a halt, or slow down, or they'll just close shop.

So I anticipate scarcity, lack of spare parts, and of course more middle class flight. The government actions are similar to what Idi Amin Dada did in Uganda, he destroyed the economy, and it has never recovered. I remember watching Chavez on TV, and musing about Idi Amin, and saying he was a nationalist, as if Chavez realized he was repeating Idi Amin's moves. Woe br onto us, I suppose.

[Warren Stupidity]

188. The private share holders will be compensated.

The negotiations over the details of that compensation stalled, at which point the government simply determined the amount. The process is no different than any other eminent domain process.

[protocol rv]

191. Quite different

In eminent domain in the USA, the process is decided in the courts. The process in Venezuela is arbitrary. Sometimes their decisions do not follow the law at all. I can't discuss the details, because I don't want them to know who I am, but I am very familiar with one case in which the decision to take over a company was made by a government official in a fit of rage.

[FLPanhandle]

204. "the government simply determined the amount"

Wow. If that doesn't bother you, nothing will. I guess the government could "simply determine" to pay 1/100 of the value. That's not like any eminent domain process I've ever seen.

[Warren Stupidity]

229. Actually it is pretty much like every eminent domain process.

If you refuse to sell or refuse to negotiate to a reasonable price (as determined by the government) the government simply determines the fair compensation and takes your property.

" Last month, the Rainvilles learned that if they refuse to sell the land for $39,500, the government intends to seize it by eminent domain."

Today's Boston Globe, front page story Vt. farmer draws a line at US bid to bolster border.

"The Process of Eminent Domain
The legal process of eminent domain is called condemnation, and it varies by state -- but the basic steps are similar. Once the local government decides that it needs a parcel of land or a building, it contacts the owner to negotiate a selling price. At this point there are three different paths the process can take:

If the property owner agrees with the sale and price, then the government issues payment and the landowner gives up the deed. This is the simple route and usually the road less traveled.
Many times the property owner doesn't agree with the sale price. In this situation, the two parties proceed to a hearing where "fair value" is established. Attorneys and appraisers are involved, and the property owner can request that a jury make the decision.
Sometimes the property owner refuses sale entirely. When this happens, the government files a court action and posts public notice of the hearing. In the hearing, the government must prove that it tried to negotiate the sale and that the takeover is for public use. If the government wins, an appraiser establishes fair market value and the property owner is paid and evicted. Both sides are allowed to appeal the decision."
http://money.howstuffworks.com/eminent-domain1.htm

This is more or less the process that Venezuela goes through with (re)nationalizations. They don't just take your stuff without compensation, they go through a legal process where both sides get to negotiate over what fair compensation is. If the owner refuses to negotiate or agree to sell, it eventually ends up where Matesi is now.

[FLPanhandle]

239. "more or less the process Venezuela goes through"?

Less the arbitration, less the attorneys, less the appraisers, less the independent establishment of fair market value.

Yes, that's more or less the process they are doing. :eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

241. Nope. Complete with negotiations hearings etc.

The whole thing is done according to the legal process for nationalization in Venezuela. You may not think it is fair, but for now the people of Venezuela do. Lots of these processes have been handled amicably. You all start out framing nationalization as taking without compensation, ignore the history (for example the coerced and actually illegal privatizations of the 80's and 90's,) and then when confronted with the facts wander off into 'but the process isn't really fair'. Get over it. The huge reserves of iron and oil belong to the people of Venezuela, not to the traditional elites, not to the global corporations, and not to you. Their democratically elected government is renationalizing the exploitation of those resources to return them to sovereign control and to keep the majority of the profits from the exploitation in Venezuela. Just like that horrid socialist hellhole Norway did with their oil resources, just as many other nations do with their valuable resources.

[FLPanhandle]

246. Negotiations are meaningless unless the government has checks/balances

That means INDEPENDENT accessment of value and INDEPENDENT arbitration. Without that, the government can set any low ball price and the owners have no recourse. That's fair to you? Your other country examples have those independent fair market valuations, why would any progressive defend a government that bypasses that?

[Prometheus Bound]

179. Damn those socialists.

A country controlling its own resources? Crazy! What if other countries get this idea?

[protocol rv]

194. This has nothing to do with a country controlling its own resources

They have nationalized a company making corn flour - quite a bit of which is imported.
They nationalized a company providing boat transportation services.
They nationalized an industrial sector which included a Pepsi bottling plant
They nationalized a farm growing coffee
They nationalized a phone company
They nationalized a grocery chain
They nationalized a company providing compression services
They nationalized a building used by small merchants, many of whom had held leases in the building for over 30 years.
They nationalized a newly built shopping mall
They nationalized a company similar to Walmart in the USA, a subsidiary of a French company.

If you knew even 20 % of what's going on, you would be horrified.

[Prometheus Bound]

199. Hey, I live in a communist country.

Well it's supposed to be anyway.

If a company is screwing with the economy I think nationalization with fair compensation is perfectly acceptable policy.

[RainMickey]

217. If a company is screwing the economy? What you don't realize is...

....that in many cases Chavez's policies make it almost impossible for many of these companies to make a profit. So as their profits fall they lay off workers, cut back on production etc but trying to hold on as long as possible.

Eventually Chavez has to step in to save the day.

For those who live it, it's as plain as day.

[EFerrari]

237. You mean, the CEOs that see their little gold mines go missing?

Yes, I bet it is plain to them that they don't get to rape Venezuela any more and that they hate it.

[dipsydoodle]

197. K & R

Go Hugo !

[ChangoLoa]

201. There are OTHER PRIORITIES

in times of crisis than to be buying properties and companies with the public money. Many other things deserved to be funded before this. Not a good move, I think.

[classysassy]

218. A change is coming soon to a country near you

Right on President Chavez,kick the exploiters out of your country.The capitalist crooks are very angry,so let them explode,you are doing whats best for your people.The rich and greedy and their shills will say you are a demon,but they say that about all of the people of color that take back their natural resources and liberate their citizens.

[RedCloud]

219. Exacto. Las ferreterías ni siquiera tienen "ferrets".

"bout time someone put a stop to that shit.

Es tiempo ya de que el pueblo gane una.

[ChangoLoa]

220. At the same time it's expensive to keep on buying these companies

It would be good to see them put that money on new investments.

[FLPanhandle]

227. It's not expensive when the government gets to name their own price

If the owners disagree, fuck 'em, just take it anyway and pay whatever value you want.

Sweet deal. They don't even have worry about courts.

[Judi Lynn]

232. Be sure to post any evidence you've got to back up your claim Chavez is stealing their stuff. n/t

[RantinRavin]

235. From the original post:

"Venezuela's socialist president said in a televised that his government was going to take over Matesi because "we couldn't reach an amicable and reasonable settlement with the owners."


reasonable to whom ? The government ?

[FLPanhandle]

247. I wish I could buy a car like that.

Walk in, tell the dealer the price I'm willing to pay, if they don't like it, pay my price and take it anyway. Sweet!

[EFerrari]

236. That's not the way these negotiations work but well done

pulling baloney out of thin air.

lol

[FLPanhandle]

248. Okay, since you know how they work.

One simple question: Does the Venezuelan government have to pay a fair market value determined by an INDEPENDENT third party?

If not, you are full of baloney. LOL.

[Socal31]

228. Shocking!

[Catherina]

245. Good for Chavez and the future of Venezuela. Get rid of those leeches n/t