Vatican: We are not liable for priests' actions

[bulloney]

Source: MSNBC & AP

The Vatican on Monday will make its most detailed argument yet for why it is not liable for bishops who allowed priests to molest children in the U.S., The Associated Press has learned.

Read more: http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2010/05/16/4291924-vatican-to-court-priests-are-not-our-employees

---

Details are sketchy, but the Vatican is expected today to state that it is not liable for the bishops that allowed priests to molest children.

I'm sure more information will follow today.

[AngryOldDem]

1. If I had to guess...

...the Vatican will try to say that priests are, in effect, "independent contractors," and therefore the the Church is not directly responsible for their actions. I know that in some abuse litigations, the Church has tried to use this as an defense.

The more they try to rationalize their way out of this, the deeper into the shit they sink.

[happygoluckytoyou]

12. IN A RELATED STORY - FUX news announces new study that it is the boys' fault for wearing gowns

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. No, it's the boys' fault for having little boy parts, silly!!!

:popcorn: :sarcasm:

[dflprincess]

15. It's like each parish is a franchise as opposed to a corporate owned enterprise

The franchisee is expected to follow corporate's policies and send money in, but corporate has no responsibility when things go wrong at the local level.

[happyslug]

23. No, that the Bishops are the sole person responsible for what happens in his Diocese.

Discipline among Catholics are reserved to the Bishops, while the pope can name who is a Bishop, once named he can NOT be removed by the Pope (Thus the tradition of promoting a bad bishop to a position in the Vatican, the Vatican has several position that are dead ends but on paper look powerful and it has been a tradition to offer such dead end position to bad Bishops, often with an additional bribe of a Cardinal hat with the position).

Just a comment, when it comes to things involving Church law, the Vatican will act as a Court (Thus priests subject to any discipline action can appear to Rome) but actual enforcement of such rules is left to the Bishops. This has been the rule since the days of Rome, each Bishop is a sovereign according to Church law and as such NOT subject to review by the Vatican EXCEPT as a Court to resolved legal disputes involving Church law.

[salguine]

2. When you knew about it and, rather than report it, covered it up, then yes, you are.

[hayu_lol]

3. Independent contractors? LOL, I don't think so...

The Pope is the CEO, the Cardinals are the executive board and board of directors, the Bishops are the enforcers, and the priests are the local Dons.

Catholic Church LLC. They are responsible, totally responsible.

Maybe it is time to sue god.

[pattmarty]

5. Anyone that know anything about the "independent contractor"..............

...........myth, knows that you cannot support, pay, HOUSE and give medical & retirement privileges to your "contractor" and him/her still being considered an independent contractor.

[AngryOldDem]

8. I think their argument goes something like this.

THe Vatican is not ultimately responsible for what goes on in any particular diocese. Basically, they're throwing individual bishops under the bus, while knowing full well what is going on in said dioceses. I don't think it's been a very effective defense -- why should it work for Rome when it really doesn't work for any other corporation? I find it ironic that they selectively choose when and where to be involved in diocese actions. To me, that is being just as much of a "cafeteria Catholic" as they say some of the laity are. I guess it's easier to throw your weight around if you believe you have God on your side...if you're not so sure, well, turn a blind eye.

At the end of the day, the Vatican needs to keep in mind the very wise words from the man who I have as my avatar.

[defendandprotect]

18. This Pope set the policy for the entire church to follow . . . "Save the church" . . .

see post below --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4384915&mesg_id=4385361

[AngryOldDem]

25. I imagine that's how Bernie Law got his one-way ticket to Rome. n/t

[pattmarty]

4. They just don't know when to quit, do they? It is fucking unbelieveable..............

..........that institutions like the church & Toyota with "supposedly smart" people in charge can be so fucking stupid. When you are caught with your goddamn hand in the fucking cookie jar just admit it, try to change it, try to keep the damage at a minimum and fucking move on.

[Angry Dragon]

6. The church of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost

It seems for ever the catholic church has put itself out there as the Universal church, the church that god chose to be his one true church. I remember reading in the newspaper some years back that the church was going to try to be more tolerant of other religions, as long as the other religions knew that the catholic religion was the only true one. Ignorant and arrogance.

I wonder if they ever stop and think how far they have moved away from the gods that they say they believe in. Would their god say "It is not my problem, they do not work for me, I did not know what they were doing??" They condoned this activity by doing nothing except to circle the wagons to protect the church. If god really has chosen them to be his one true church, I do not feel that god needs any help from them to protect himself.

Their main concern it seems is to protect themselves, cry persecution.

[Karenina]

13. Vatican=British Petroleum or BP if you will.

:rofl:

[izquierdista]

7. Not too far off on a tangent...

If you type in 'religion' into the search box on YouTube, the #1 top result is George Carlin's "Religion is Bullshit" routine. Maybe people ARE getting wise to the charlatans at the Vatican.

[jotsy]

9. Just the kind of statement one might expect from the corporate mind set.

Funny, I thought these folks answered a different calling.

[lobodons]

10. YES.................You are!!

Said in the tone that Obama used when he said, "NO,......you can't have the keys back!"

[Dappleganger]

11. How Blackwaterish of them.

But then again, when you make up your own country and your own rules you can do whatever you want, right?

[Retrograde]

14. Technically true, but

they are responsible for the systematic, global attempts at hiding the problem and moving accused priests around rather than doing open investigations and, if the accusations were true, disciplining them. As Nixon learned, often the cover-up is seen as worse than the crime.

[Frances]

16. And they are not liable for pushing Bush as president in 00 and 04

either.

The Church would not give communion to Kerry and others who wanted separation of church and state, but never denied communion to any politician who lied about an unnecessary war in Iraq.

[defendandprotect]

17. BS . . . this Pope set the policy to hide sexual offenders . . . INFO HERE . . .

Pope 'led cover-up of child abuse by priests'by EWAN FLETCHER
Last updated at 22:00 30 September 2006

Comments (4)Add to My StoriesTop: Tom Doyle and, bottom, Pope Benedict

The Pope played a leading role in a systematic cover-up of child sex abuse by Roman Catholic priests, according to a shocking documentary to be screened by the BBC tonight.

In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety.

The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated.

The Panorama special, Sex Crimes And The Vatican, investigates the details of this little-known document for the first time. The programme also accuses the Catholic Church of knowingly harbouring paedophile clergymen. It reveals that priests accused of child abuse are generally not struck off or arrested but simply moved to another parish, often to reoffend. It gives examples of hush funds being used to silence the victims.

Before being elected as Pope Benedict XVI in April last year, the pontiff was Cardinal Thomas Ratzinger who had, for 24 years, been the head of the powerful Congregation of the Doctrine of The Faith, the department of the Roman Catholic Church charged with promoting Catholic teachings on morals and matters of faith. An arch-Conservative, he was regarded as the 'enforcer' of Pope John Paul II in cracking down on liberal challenges to traditional Catholic teachings.

Five years ago he sent out an updated version of the notorious 1962 Vatican document Crimen Sollicitationis - Latin for The Crime of Solicitation - which laid down the Vatican's strict instructions on covering up sexual scandal. It was regarded as so secret that it came with instructions that bishops had to keep it locked in a safe at all times.

Cardinal Ratzinger reinforced the strict cover-up policy by introducing a new principle: that the Vatican must have what it calls Exclusive Competence. In other words, he commanded that all child abuse allegations should be dealt with direct by Rome.

Patrick Wall, a former Vatican-approved enforcer of the Crimen Sollicitationis in America, tells the programme: "I found out I wasn't working for a holy institution, but an institution that was wholly concentrated on protecting itself."

And Father Tom Doyle, a Vatican lawyer until he was sacked for criticising the church's handling of child abuse claims, says: "What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.

"When abusive priests are discovered, the response has been not to investigate and prosecute but to move them from one place to another. So there's total disregard for the victims and for the fact that you are going to have a whole new crop of victims in the next place. This is happening all over the world."

The investigation could not come at a worse time for Pope Benedict, who is desperately trying to mend the Church's relations with the Muslim world after a speech in which he quoted a 14th Century Byzantine emperor who said that Islam was spread by holy war and had brought only evil to the world.
The Panorama programme is presented by Colm O'Gorman, who was raped by a priest when he was 14. He said: "What gets me is that it's the same story every time and every place. Bishops appoint priests who they know have abused children in the past to new parishes and new communities and more abuse happens."

Last night Eileen Shearer, director of the Catholic Office for the Protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults said: "The Catholic Church in England and Wales (has) established a single set of national policies and procedures for child protection work. We are making excellent progress in protecting children and preventing abuse."

Panorama: Sex Crimes And The Vatican is on BBC1 tonight at 10.15pm.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-407808/Pope-led-cover-child-abuse-priests.html




Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 02:37 AM by defendandprotect
AND, JUST WANT TO ADD THAT THERE IS AN INVESTIGATION GOING FORWARD NOW INTO WHETHER
THE RCC USED MONEY FROM AMERICAN TAXPAYERS VIA 'FAITH BASED' RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION
SUPPORT ...... TO PAY LAWSUITS BROUGHT AGAINST THE CHURCH BY VICTIMS OF PRIEST PEDOPHILES!!!
*******************************************************************************************


save church at all costs....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/new...

"What you have here is an explicit written policy to cover up cases of child sexual abuse by the clergy and to punish those who would call attention to these crimes by the churchmen.


I'm not able at the moment to connect to this link but will look for another way to recapture
the info --

The document . . .

The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs...men_englis...

[Lerkfish]

19. If that reasoning is allowed to go to its logical conclusion, then they cannot SHIELD them, either

and every time they know of one, they have to deliver them immediately to authorities, instead of shuffling them around.

[Gormy Cuss]

20. I hope that many of their congregants disagree and that they let the Vatican know that. n/t

[hedgehog]

21. The CIA believed that the Soviet Union was an impregnable monolith.

Then, in September 1989, 13,000 East Germans passed though Hungary into Austria. In December 1991, the Soviet Union collapsed.

As a Catholic, I believe the Church is both human and divine.While I believe that the Church will survive, I also believe that its human face is about to undergo incredible change. The Church is not the hierarchy. The hierarchy may vanish, Benedict may be the very last Pope, but the Church will remain.

[brooklynite]

22. So then, the BISHOPS are to blame, right?

If the CEO wants to throw the Senior Staff under the bus, fine by me, but I'm wondering if they'll go quietly.

[hedgehog]

24. There is a debate going on right now . There is a push to canonize

John Paul II as part of the effort to strengthen the Papacy and "reform the reform", i. e. repeal Vatican II. However, how can you canonize someone who failed to stop the pedophiles? Why, by claiming the poor man was sickly/elderly/tired/working on other problems and that it was his deputy's responsibility to take care of those mattes. That would put the blame on Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Bendict XVI.

Google legionaires of Christ, Marcial Maciel and Cardinal Sodano for some stories that make the pedophile crisis up to now look like a parking ticket.


http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/the-vaticans-watergate-follow-the-money.html

[formercia]

26. Pope: Priests are Independent Contractors.

Moi?

:rofl:

[JerseygirlCT]

27. RICO nt