'I'm a Marxist:' Dalai Lama

[demoleft]

Source: afp

AFP - Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama said Thursday that he is a Marxist, yet credits capitalism for bringing new freedoms to the communist country that exiled him -- China.

"Still I am a Marxist," the exiled Tibetan Buddhist leader said in New York, where he arrived with an entourage of robed monks and a heavy security detail to give a series of paid public lectures.

Marxism has "moral ethics, whereas capitalism is only how to make profits," the Dalai Lama, 74, said.

However, he credited China's embrace of market economics for breaking communism's grip over the world's most populous country and forcing the ruling Communist Party to "represent all sorts of classes."

Read more: http://www.france24.com/en/20100520-im-marxist-dalai-lama

---

not bad.

info on the nyc events:
http://www.dalailamany.org/event_info/

[marylanddem]

1. Wow - good for him!

Love that guy - now love him even more.

[Alhena]

43. So this is a Marxist board? Why didn't anyone tell me?

Jeez, it's like a lot of people here think the further left they can be on this board, the more "hard core" and worthy of respect they are.

In case you didn't notice, Marxism-Leninism didn't exactly pass the test of history- ask those in eastern Europe. But I realize you're likely an e-posturer who cares more about being "legit" on a board than actually being correct.

[slay]

66. True Marxism has never been tried

just the bastardized version by Lenin and his such who use it for ill purposes. Try taking a couple unbiased courses from a local school or community college on Marx and his beliefs and how they should be implemented before you start spouting off about subjects you do not fully grasp.

[Warren DeMontague]

69. Yes, because verily there is no better laboratory for what will work in the real world

than community college.

[slay]

70. Go ahead - enjoy capitalism - right up until it destroys the planet

genius. :crazy:

[Warren DeMontague]

71. That would be a shame, since I was getting awfully fond of the Planet Genius.

But, you said yourself, "true Marxism has never been tried" --- and why do you suppose that is?

[Javaman]

102. If you don't understant it, then how can you say it wouldn't work?

that's some interesting logic there.

[LanternWaste]

140. For the same reason true capitalism has never been tried...?

"and why do you suppose that is?"

For the same reason true capitalism has never been tried...?

[valerief]

124. Excellent pic! nt

[No Elephants]

82. Good thing no one said community colleges are a laboratory for what works in the real world,

or anything remotely like that.

[BOG PERSON]

129. True Marxism is practiced everyday

Stuff gets made, stuff gets sold, etc.

[Jackpine Radical]

148. It is also important to remember that Marx & Engels wrote

in the mid-19th Century. There have been a lot of years of advancement in understanding since then. People like Marcuse infused psychological understanding into Marxist econ0mic theory, for example. And the Scandinavian countries pioneered ways of incorporating the ideals of our own founders into a very humane variety of Marxism. (Did you know that Denmark celebrates our 4th of July?) 21st century Marxism has advanced far beyond what the Russian revolutionaries fought for & then screwed up royally in trying to implement.

[BOG PERSON]

149. How did Marcuse advance anyone's understanding about anything?

[Jackpine Radical]

192. I think he was a voice for humane values

that were missing from Marx's original formulation. Marx postulated some sort of "economic man," driven purely by economic forces, and Marcuse was among those who paid more attention to personal liberation, democratic values, etc. He was not a psychologist, but couched his insights in the psychological language of his time, which was Freudian.

[socialist_n_TN]

193. Also, Marx didn't envision his political system

taking over a feudal state like pre-1917 Russia. He thought that it would first come to pass in a more industrialized area like Germany, England, or even France.

Russia just happened to be the first place that a Marxist based state was TRIED. It was also perverted (IMO) by Stalin's "cult of personality" and also his "deification" of a safely dead V.I. Lenin. Shortly after the Bolsheviks consolidated power after the civil war, Lenin died and any idea of a PHILOSOPHICALLY based Marxism went into the crapper. In the ensuing power struggle, Russian Communism was born with the ideas of Stalin prevailing over the ideas of Trotsky and, I would also say, Lenin. The actual system that was put into place was more Stalin than Marx.

[hollowdweller]

163. There goes his invitations to the White House

Taking bets on how long before he's thrown under the bus.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. Gives 'em something to do, in the dorm lounge.

More fun that dealing with that pile of dirty socks and underwear.

[NoSheep]

76. Oh, so only your opinion counts? Got it. e-posturer indeed.

[Alhena]

96. If I thought it was a genuinely held and informed opinion ...

then I would treat it with more respect. But I've seen the type many times- Starbucks revolutionaries who have no earthly idea what is is actually like to live under a Marxist regime. I don't either personally, but I can look at countries that have tried Marxism and I can't think of a single one I'd like to live in.

And the "true Marxism was never implemented" argument doesn't hold water - you can't separate some abstract political ideology from human nature. Marxism sounds noble in the abstract. When implemented by human beings it has repeatedly shown itself to be a disaster, all throughout history. Those in power use the power to benefit themselves and their cronies.

So you combine that with the fact that there are a lot of posers on this board who seem to think that if being left of center is a good thing then being WAY left of center makes them cool and hardcore, and, no, I don't respect their views very much.

[NoSheep]

175. You haven't lived it...not even in your mind. You admit that. Then why not just hush?

[Soylent Brice]

122. fuck it. i realize in retrospect that i don't really give a shit. n/t

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Alhena]

134. Non-Marxist = Falwellite, gotcha

[JackRiddler]

143. In classic style your comment implies that Marxism must be contagious...

The presence of posters who like what the Dalai Lama said do not make this a Marxist board. If your ideas are so superior perhaps you can tolerate the presence of those who think differently.

Marxism is not equivalent even to Marxism-Leninism, let alone the post-WWII states of Eastern Europe.

Eastern Europe was occupied by the Red Army, which imposed one-party dictatorships and fully centralized state ownership of the economy. They may have called themselves Marxist, but note they also called themselves democratic. No one says these states therefore proved that democracy is a failure!

We'd all do well to get away from doctrinaire definitions of everything by label and look to substance instead.

For example I would support an end to the present system of capital allocation and its replacement by a banking system owned by a democratically elected state (in the case of the US, all 50 states should have banks). Different banks should exist for consumers/stateworkers/housemortgages, small businesses, and larger businesses and development projects. Their appointed and elected leadership should meet across regions and nationally to coordinate a rational transformation of the economy to renewable, sustainable energy sources and the building of a green transport infrastructure.

Alongside this, I would support much freer rein for credit unions and allowing localities to issue community currencies, so that local capitalism can flourish.

This system would bear no relationship whatsoever to what happened in Eastern Europe.

If you want to call that "Marxist" and dismiss it because of that label, be my guest. All you are doing is crippling yourself intellectually by way of dogma.

In reality, it is capitalism that has proved over and over that it does not work without massive state interventions. Capitalism has never been about the "free market." At all times it has required that capital run the state to its advantage, without which it would have collapsed many times. In fact, it has collapsed many times, and in each case used the state to bail it out and set it up again.

If Eastern Europe is an example for why "Marxism" doesn't work, then why aren't all the many, many meltdowns of capitalism examples for why capitalism doesn't work?

Even at its routine periods, capitalism is predicated on an authoritarian state that exists to enforce the will to work.

[Maraya1969]

144. Your response embodies the increasing sardonic posts

I see on this board. The put down is unnecessary and mean. We can all have different opinions and express them in a respectable manner.

[lstrether]

200. "didn't pass the test of history" ??

Sorry, that's not so.

If you "ask those in eastern Europe" you'd have to ask them about Stalinism/Sovietism/etc, which are hardly the same things.

Please read Marx before you spread this kind of lie. You'll find your heart softened, I'm absolutely sure of it!

--Casey

[ZombieHorde]

201. Why the personal attacks? The poster just likes an alternative economic system. nt

[FLPanhandle]

2. Says the guy making a bundle for speaking

Nice way to make some profits yourself there Lama.

[flamingdem]

13. ! and hanging out with Richard Gere & co! nt

[No Elephants]

85. Isn't Marxism more about how and for what/whom money and other resources are used?

[Imajika]

3. It's okay to be a marxist...

...as long as you don't actually run anything and have no real responsibility for an economy.

[Freddie Stubbs]

8. Or have to live in a Marxist country

[FLPanhandle]

10. and can make a pile of money and live in 5 star hotels.

[caledesi]

12. kinda like Sarah Palin... nt

[liberation]

22. Wow... throwing the Dalai Lama under the bus...

because he doesn't love your preferred socioeconomic systemic organization.

One thing I can count on my fellow Americans is on their creative ignorance, because one has to be all sorts of creative and ignorant to equate the motherf*cking Dalai Lama with Sarah Palin.

[AlbertCat]

30. Dalai Lama, the Pope, Sarah Palin, Pat Robertson..... what's the dif?

They're all people unqualified for the power they wield, IMHO. Some more than others. It's that authority-via-supernatural-means that worries me.

[pundaint]

32. Thanks for not continuing on with about 350 members of congress, too much of the supreme court, and

NBA referees, but what's your point?

[liberation]

33. Thanks for proving my point...

... Buddhism does not imply any authority via supernatural means, all the contrary. So yes, there is a big fucking difference between Christian fundamentalism and Buddhism. In fact, I could not think of two philosophies which could be more diametrically opposed.

But as I said, creative ignorance...

[RaleighNCDUer]

97. The Dalai Lama would be the first to tell you had weilds no power.

And what, in your mind, are the qualifications needed to be a philosopher/priest whose only duties are to think, meditate, and speak on his thoughts?

[ChangoLoa]

137. There's nothing supernatural about the reincarnation of great souls

If it happens, it's purely natural...

PS: don't take me seriously here.

[roguevalley]

39. I like him alot but he doesn't crimp on his own comforts. Also, I

have yet to see a Marxist country that is worth a damn. But then, I'm not the dalai lama

[reggie the dog]

73. cubans are more literate and live longer than americans

[NoSheep]

80. I don't think he said "I am a Marxist country".

[laughingliberal]

135. Huh! Cause I have yet to see a truly Marxist country. Or a truly capitalist, either.

I mostly see a lot of countries who profess one philosophy or another who are, at their heart, oligarchies.

[AgadorSparticus]

61. no shit! your post had me lmao! n/t

[Javaman]

103. Correction...

The Dalai Lama and mother fucking sarah palin.

LOL

[kestrel91316]

83. What do you REALLY know about the Dalai Lama's personal lifestyle, lol?

And how about his actual personal income?

My guess is, you know nothing. You just assume he's some sort of secret latte-sipping, Volvo-driving elitist with silk underdrawers and a large jewelry box overflowing with Cartier's stuff. Because that's what you and your friends would live like if you had his gig......

[FLPanhandle]

110. Well, let's see...

Here he is with his Patek Philippe watch which costs more than 24,000 Euros. Quite nice for a Marxist. I also found myself in the same 5 star hotel as him in Chicago during his last tour. There are articles written with examples about how he enjoys his luxuries. Google is your friend if you want to learn for yourself.

[NoSheep]

181. YOU!

[liberation]

23. Do pray tell what Marxist countries are out there?

[Freddie Stubbs]

74. Cuba

[liberation]

150. Really?

Technically Cuba is a socialist "republic."

There is no such thing as a Marxist country, there are sociopolitical ethos which used marxist theories as their inspiration. We don't call our current republic a Adam Smithist country, do we?

[reggie the dog]

72. Marx called for workers to unite

Germany is marxist in that it has high union participation. most of europe is marxist in that it has worker protection, good unemployment, public health care etc. Basically all countries fall somewhere between adam smith and karl marx. i think finland is a good exaple of this.

[Freddie Stubbs]

75. Marx also called for the state to own the means of production

[No Elephants]

88. As opposed to bail outs?

Marx also called upon the state to distribute the results of production in a fairer way than, say, Czars did.

I'm not a Marxist, but the Dalai Lama is speaking of the morality of Marxism, too. Pro-worker, pro-racial equality, etc.

Things that appealed to so many Democrats in the 20's and 30's.

[reggie the dog]

139. In Communist Manifesto

he called for WORKERS to CONTROL means of production. Lenin interpred this to mean that govt. would own means of production "for the workers".... strong unions can CONTROL means of production. There was a lot of anarchist/unionist activity when Marx was writing, people not looking to govt for anything and simply uniting then demanding things from the owning class.

[sam sarrha]

26. Marxism was inspired by an anthropological paper on the Huron nation in 1778, a truly Communist

nation. China, USSR.. etc are not Communist nations, they are bureaucratic Oligarchy's.. they in no way resemble communist nations. marx read the anthropological paper ny jones and tried to apply it to an industrial society.. but being idealistic he fatally ignored the Iron Law of Oligarchy..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy
"...The iron law of oligarchy is a political theory, first developed by the German syndicalist sociologist Robert Michels in his 1911 book, Political Parties. It states that all forms of organization, regardless of how democratic or autocratic they may be at the start, will eventually and inevitably develop into oligarchies. The reasons for this are the technical indispensability of leadership, the tendency of the leaders to organize themselves and to consolidate their interests; the gratitude of the led towards the leaders, and the general immobility and passivity of the masses...."

[Jkid]

147. Huron Nation?

Otherwise K and R.

[martymar64]

162. It also has roots in the Diggers that were in England after their civil war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers

[proteus_lives]

44. +1000

[Catherina]

4. That's the funniest thing I've read all week. Nazi lover is more like it.

The guy who's been on the CIA's payroll since the 50s wants us to believe he's a Marxist?

This is the same guy who had many close associations with Nazis, convicted Nazi War Criminals, members of Hitler’s Body Guard and Death Squads, as well as personal friends of Adolph Hitler and Rudolf Eichmann.



The Dalai Lama with his asso­ciate, SS war crim­i­nal Dr. Bruno Beger the great German Racial anthropologist


The Dalai Lama with his asso­ciate, SS war crim­i­nal Dr. Bruno Beger





Nazis visiting the Dalai Lama in Tibet



His *Holiness* with Miguel Serrano high member of Chile's Nazi Party and Chilean writer heavily into the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

In May 1984, Serrano gave the Hitler salute at the funeral in Santiago of SS Colonel Walter Rauff.<9> He convened a rally in Santiago on 5 September 1993, in honor of Rudolf Hess and in memory of the 62 young Chilean Nazi supporters who were shot dead while occupying a social security building during an abortive coup in 1938.<1><10> He maintained correspondence with neo-Nazi leaders such as Matt Koehl. He was interviewed in depth by the Greek far-right magazine To Antidoto and has also featured in the literature of the Black Order.<10>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Serrano

The Beginning of the End for the Prisoners of Auschwitz

After receiving permission from Himmler, Hirt began the task of selecting his victims from the prisoners of Auschwitz (although there is some debate as to whether Hirt himself made the selection, or if it was done by SS members Dr. Hans Fleischhacker (Tübingen) and SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Bruno Berger (Munich), who arrived in Auschwitz the first half of 1943), as indicated by Tübingen Professor, Dr. Hans-Joachim Lang, with the initial selection totaling 115 people - 79 Jewish men, 30 Jewish women, 2 Poles, and 4 "Asians" (most likely Soviet POWs). Once his selections were made, SS-Hauptsturmführer Dr. Bruno Berger collected personal data and biometrical measurements from the prisoners, completing his task by June 15, 1943

http://www.holocaust-history.org/hirt/

[unkachuck]

6. how come....

....many of these old religious leaders seem to be ex-Nazis or Nazi sympathizers? I never thought of the Nazis as being that spiritual....

....great post, Catherina....

[ingac70]

7. .....

[valerief]

126. I KNEW the Pope was a Nazi, too! nt

[daleo]

11. To be fair

You could dig up pictures of all sorts of good leaders with all sorts of unsavory leaders if you try. For example, there are many pictures of FDR with Stalin. That doesn't mean FDR agreed with Stalin's purges or the Gulag.

[JDPriestly]

14. They were "spiritual" in the sense of superstitious. I don't consider that

to be very spiritual.

[David__77]

17. I agree he's no progressive.

He puts up a left cover. He's a little guilty about supporting the slaveowner rebellion half a century ago.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherina]

35. That's rather a weak retort to historical fact

When Dalai Lama ruled Tibet before 1950, he was a slave owner who killed and abused millions of *inferiors* with no mercy, just like Nazis. Human life meant no more to him than it did to Eichmann. The Dalai Lama represents a racist world where the Aristocratic feudalistic dictatorship of Tibet viewed the majority of the people as less than animals because they were *racially inferior*.



Ring a bell? The Germans didn't go there and establish close ties with them without reason.

As long as you're going to accuse me of posting Zionist bullshit, here's another picture of the Holy Man pressing the hands of his friend Jorg Haider, the leader of the Far-Right Austrian Freedom Party (FPO) known for publically airing his appreciation of Nazi Germany.




Nazi occultists trained in Tibet where the Dalai Lama was so proud of the relationship that Mein Kampf was one of the few European books translated into Tibetan.

Thubten Gyatso, 13th Dalai Lama

Mein Kampf in Tibetan
During the 1920s, the Dalai Lama was Thubten Gyatso. He was a scholar of impressive intellect who sought to achieve a balance between Western technology and Eastern spirituality. He had heard of Hitler when the National Socialist movement was still struggling for power. Among the many European books the Dalai Lama had translated was Mein Kampf. He filled his copy with enthusiastic annotations and underlining of his favourite passages on virtually every page. Of Hitler he said, “The inji (honourable foreigner) is assisted by God for some high purpose in this life.” He also believed there to be a synchronicity for the Swastika being the symbol of both National Socialism and the ancient Bon-Buddhism of his warrior monks. Also noted were certain similarities between National Socialist and Buddhist doctrines, particularly that service to one’s folk is the highest purpose or dharma in life. Therefore when Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 warm congratulations were received from far off Tibet.

http://ironlight.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/germany-and-tibet/

I think you need to get out more. The history Channel did a fascinating segment on this. You can watch the beginning here if you care to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_IohMUWaY

Or you could keep believing the amusing myth the CIA keeps financing to destabilize communism in China. I'm sorry you feel that way because I'm not trying to push anyone's bullshit.

[GReedDiamond]

55. Here are some more links...

http://www.newspiritualbible.com/index2

and the owner of that particular domain:

You Searched for: newspiritualbible.com

WHOIS results for newspiritualbible.com

Domain Name.......... newspiritualbible.com
Creation Date........ 2004-03-16
Registration Date.... 2004-03-16
Expiry Date.......... 2011-03-16
Organisation Name.... Chris Rosetti
Organisation Address. P.O. Box 393
Organisation Address.
Organisation Address. LaFayette, N.Y.
Organisation Address. 13084
Organisation Address. NY
Organisation Address. UNITED STATES

Admin Name........... Chris Rosetti
Admin Address........ P.O. Box 393
Admin Address........
Admin Address........ LaFayette, N.Y.
Admin Address........ 13084
Admin Address........ NY
Admin Address........ UNITED STATES
Admin Email.......... [e-mail]
Admin Phone.......... [phone]
Admin Fax............

Tech Name............ YahooDomains TechContact
Tech Address......... 701 First Ave.
Tech Address.........
Tech Address......... Sunnyvale
Tech Address......... 94089
Tech Address......... CA
Tech Address......... UNITED STATES
Tech Email........... [e-mail]
Tech Phone........... [phone]
Tech Fax.............
Name Server.......... yns1.yahoo.com
Name Server.......... yns2.yahoo.com

Lastly:

http://www.chrisrosetti.com/index.php/component/content/article/10-the-dalai-lamachrist-or-the-anti-christ-

WTF has happened here at DU?

[grantcart]

56. I don't know what is happening but among other things it has turned into

a place that is hostile to undocumented workers but that is another story.

What is the significance of the information you posted?

I don't know who Chris Rosetti is and can't see the connection to the previous poster.

I am sure this all obvious but maybe you can give a short explanation.

[GReedDiamond]

The "dalai lama is a nazi" meme...

...my links suggest that it is being promoted by people with weird religious/right-wing political views which do not easily align with the general sentiment as traditionally expressed by the "average DUer." But that may simply be my mis-perception of what I think/thought DU was about, or at least marginally sympathetic to. Pardon me.

ON EDIT: I am not a supporter of the Dalai Lama, or a Buddhist, or even "religious," so if it turns out that the Dalai Lama is a nazi, and I've never heard about it until now, I apologize for my obvious ignorance.

[grantcart]

64. thanks

The Dalai Lama is a good man and people trying to dig up things that are more than 50 years old are reaching.

Having said that many people in the US and Europe perceive him as being the head of world Buddhism. Actually in some Buddhist areas less is known about him than in the US, and while they may have a generally open attitude towards him cannot consider him a leading Buddhist monk because he still claims to be a head of government (in exile).

Buddhism in fact doesn't have a theology for Kingship (or head of state) which makes combining the head of the Sangha and the head of state problematic for most non Tibetan Buddhists.

[kestrel91316]

84. China has paid posters all over the internet whose sole job is slandering

the Dalai Lama all morning, noon, and night. That is plainly obvious.

I find tarring the 14th Dalai Lama for the actions of the 13th to be sadly comical.

[No Elephants]

94. Thanks. I understand totally that you are not speaking to whether the DL is a Nazi or not,

but to the quality of the links given by the poster in support of his or her claims about the Dalai Lama, as well as the claim that the poster is not following anyone's agenda.

Whatever the reality about the Dalai Lama, I am grateful that you pointed out what you pointed out. And also for your explanaion of the import of your post. Thanks.

[Catherina]

128. See post 98, It's not a weird religious/right-wing political meme

Additionaly, I never stated he was a Nazi, but a Nazi lover.

Once you dig past the holy demeanor, you realize his parade fronts for ethnic nationalism which is the same thing the Nazis believed in. The close collaboration between Tibet and the Nazis was based on mutual admiration. That's nothing to be admired. Nor is it admirable that the Dalai Lama still maintains close ties with known Nazis and defends others.


Michael Parenti did some very good work on the Tibet Myth and I encourage people to read it. He doesn't go into the Nazi angle but it's very good work that exposes the romantic myth the West created when they realized the slaves and serfs refused to join in the proxy war we were waging against China. The CIA and Rightwing National Endowment for Democracy pour a staggering amount of money into the "Free Tibet" movement. This should make anyone on the Left stop cold and think.

Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

...

Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.” 11

...

Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeated rape, beginning at age nine. 14 The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.

In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. 15 The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care, They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord's land--or the monastery’s land--without pay, to repair the lord's houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand.16 Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. 17

As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.

One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.”18 Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed.19

The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery.20

The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.

The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation--including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation--were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.”21 Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. 22

In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had her nose sliced away.23

....

For the rich lamas and secular lords, the Communist intervention was an unmitigated calamity. Most of them fled abroad, as did the Dalai Lama himself, who was assisted in his flight by the CIA. Some discovered to their horror that they would have to work for a living. Many, however, escaped that fate. Throughout the 1960s, the Tibetan exile community was secretly pocketing $1.7 million a year from the CIA, according to documents released by the State Department in 1998. Once this fact was publicized, the Dalai Lama’s organization itself issued a statement admitting that it had received millions of dollars from the CIA during the 1960s to send armed squads of exiles into Tibet to undermine the Maoist revolution. The Dalai Lama's annual payment from the CIA was $186,000. Indian intelligence also financed both him and other Tibetan exiles. He has refused to say whether he or his brothers worked for the CIA. The agency has also declined to comment.44

In 1995, the News & Observer of Raleigh, North Carolina, carried a frontpage color photograph of the Dalai Lama being embraced by the reactionary Republican senator Jesse Helms, under the headline “Buddhist Captivates Hero of Religious Right.”45 In April 1999, along with Margaret Thatcher, Pope John Paul II, and the first George Bush, the Dalai Lama called upon the British government to release Augusto Pinochet, the former fascist dictator of Chile and a longtime CIA client who was visiting England. The Dalai Lama urged that Pinochet not be forced to go to Spain where he was wanted to stand trial for crimes against humanity.

Into the twenty-first century, via the National Endowment for Democracy and other conduits that are more respectable sounding than the CIA, the U.S. Congress continued to allocate an annual $2 million to Tibetans in India, with additional millions for “democracy activities” within the Tibetan exile community. In addition to these funds, the Dalai Lama received money from financier George Soros.46

...

In 1996, the Dalai Lama issued a statement that must have had an unsettling effect on the exile community. It read in part: “Marxism is founded on moral principles, while capitalism is concerned only with gain and profitability.” Marxism fosters “the equitable utilization of the means of production” and cares about “the fate of the working classes” and “the victims of . . . exploitation. For those reasons the system appeals to me, and . . . I think of myself as half-Marxist, half-Buddhist.49

But he also sent a reassuring message to “those who live in abundance”: “It is a good thing to be rich... Those are the fruits for deserving actions, the proof that they have been generous in the past.” And to the poor he offers this admonition: “There is no good reason to become bitter and rebel against those who have property and fortune... It is better to develop a positive attitude.”50

...

In November 2005 the Dalai Lama spoke at Stanford University on “The Heart of Nonviolence,” but stopped short of a blanket condemnation of all violence. Violent actions that are committed in order to reduce future suffering are not to be condemned, he said, citing World War II as an example of a worthy effort to protect democracy. What of the four years of carnage and mass destruction in Iraq, a war condemned by most of the world—even by a conservative pope--as a blatant violation of international law and a crime against humanity? The Dalai Lama was undecided: “The Iraq war—it’s too early to say, right or wrong.”53 Earlier he had voiced support for the U.S. military intervention against Yugoslavia and, later on, the U.S. military intervention into Afghanistan.54

...

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Unfortunately I couldn't find the picture Parenti mentioned of Jesse and the Dalai Lama but their ties are close. If the Dalai Lama is a Marxist, then Jesse Helms is a poster boy for interracial harmony.

Programs of The Jesse Helms Center, The Heritage Foundation

Lecture Series

The Helms Center Lecture Series provides a unique opportunity for students and citizens to enrich their understanding and appreciation of the world. International leaders in areas of business, human rights, religion and government provide commentary on world events and the challenges of modern life. The Helms Center has proudly hosted many notable speakers including Lady Margaret Thatcher, Secretary of State Madeline Albright, Reverend Franklin Graham, the Dalai Lama, Congressman J.C. Watts, Justice Clarence Thomas, Steve Forbes, Harry Wu, and T. Boone Pickens.

http://www.jessehelmscenter.org/programs/default.asp

[Catherina]

98. Weak and untruthful. Here's another link for you. National Geography

Watch it with your own eyes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_IohMUWaY


On your false point trying to paint Christina Rosetti as a right wing whackjob, try again. Christina Rosetti is an Green Party activist who focuses on issues such as Social Equality and Activism, Environmentalism and How to Change the Political and Social Landscape. She's been a big proponent of full civil rights for all members of
the LGBT community including Marriage Equality.


http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-93751132.html

http://www.dailyorange.com/2.8657/congressional-underdog-plans-to-put-up-a-fight-1.1236941

In 25th Congressional Race: Maffei vs. Sweetland...
And Maybe More

Beth Croughan
Posted: May 08, 2008

....

Christina Rosetti (Working Families)


Christina Rosetti is running against Maffei for nomination by the Working Families party. She describes herself as a spiritual person.

<“I strongly believe that most of the problems we have are from spiritual ignorance, and that we've really gotten off track.” Christina Rosetti, Congressional candidate>

Rosetti has written three books about spirituality: “The New Spiritual Bible,” “Angel Justice” and “The Secret Revealed.” She also tutors in college mathematics, physics and chemistry. Rosetti says she is running for Congress to bring attention to issues that are not always at the top of the political agenda. As an anti-war activist, she criticizes the Iraq war with reminders of the Congressional vote on the Gulf of Tonkin resolution that started the Vietnam War.

<“We’re only one Gulf of Tonkin resolution away from having a draft.” Christina Rosetti, Congressional candidate>

She has had a few unsuccessful attempts at political office, including a run for president in 2000. Despite her losses, Rosetti says she is not discouraged by Maffei and the other candidates. Rosetti says she just wants her voice to be heard.


<“If you have an idea you have to follow that, if I did anything else...I’m trying to do something new here. I know the odds are against it.” Christina Rosetti, Congressional candidate>


In 2006, Rosetti ran a zero-dollar campaign. But she says she hopes to raise money this time around.

http://knightpoliticalreporting.syr.edu/democracywise/stories.cfm?storyid=251

Nice try. First I'm accused of posting Zionist bullshit and now Rightwing bullshit. I challenge you to research Tibet and the Dalai Lama independently instead of grasping at weak straws because I'm pointing out the fraud. Weak. Really weak.

[GReedDiamond]

116. Christina Rosetti makes the following claims...

..."The Dalai Lama apparently does not follow one the main moral codes and precepts stated in: The New Spiritual Bible (Spiritual Activism) (note: a book written by Rosetti) "as well as stated in the Loren Christian book entitled: Angel Justice (and which book claims that it contains moral codes provided by the New Christ who is presently alive as an adult but is keeping a hidden identity for now)."

So, she has a book to promote/sell, and well, draw your own conclusions about the "New Christ" she is apparently associated with.

Rosetti also links to "...The Secret Truth about Oprah Winfrey and her connections to the CIA's child
sex-slave MK-ULTRA Cult" (note: is Rosetti mad at Oprah because Oprah won't feature Rosetti's book in the Oprah Book Club?), plus links to the "The Secret Truth about Jimmy Carter and Carter's Nazi War Criminal connections." All of this enlightening "information" is available at this link:

http://www.newspiritualbible.com/index2

[Catherina]

132. Xcuse me. You introduced her to this conversation, not I.

Nice tactic. Find someone I didn't even quote in my initial post who carries similar information on her site, and then use your own ideas about her, based on a 5 minute perusal, to discredit facts you don't like. Simply because she repeated some of them on her site.

That's not very persuasive.

[liberation]

156. Technically, posting some people's opinion trying to pass them as fact is also not very persuasive

It would be like quoting Bill O'reilly's (sp?) opinion's or op-ed as independent news items or historical fact.

Which is the danger I see in this society, where the lines between journalism and editorializing become fainter and fainter.

[GReedDiamond]

165. Catherina, you were defending Christina Rosetti...

...in your post (#98), after I posted the link to her site:

"On your false point trying to paint Christina Rosetti as a right wing whackjob, try again. Christina Rosetti is an Green Party activist who focuses on issues such as Social Equality and Activism, Environmentalism and How to Change the Political and Social Landscape. She's been a big proponent of full civil rights for all members of
the LGBT community including Marriage Equality."

According to your reply (post #98), you were making her out to be some kind of "progressive" as she is supposedly a "Green Party activist." Even if she IS a "Green Party activist," she is, nonetheless, a "whackjob," based on the content of her OWN WEB SITE, i.e., the Dalai Lama is a nazi, the "New Jesus" walks amongst us, Oprah Winfrey is involved in a CIA/MK Ultra child sex slave ring, and Jimmy Carter is also a "nazi sympathizer," or some such nonsense. You dug this hole yourself, not me.

[Catherina]

166. "after I (GReedD) posted the link to her site". Read what you wrote again

and let it sink in. You introduced her, not I, and then falsely painted her to make some weak, tenuous link to discredit facts that have nothing to do with her other than that she posted them on her website. Now you try to take off an a tangent. Sorry, not playing. The Dalai Lama is a dishonest fraud and friend of the Nazis. Try to stick to the point.

[GReedDiamond]

167. I realize that I posted the link to...

...Christina Rosetti's web site. I think most everyone else knows what I posted, as well.

What is your point?

Is "Christina Rosetti" a reputable source for the accusations she (she is a she, right?), and, apparently, you, make -- not only about the Dalai Lama (who I care very little for, myself, not being a Buddhist or even Tibetan, I'm borderline atheist), but also about Oprah Winfrey (can't really stand her, but got nuthin against her), and former President Jimmy Carter (I like him now better than when he was Prez)?

[Catherina]

168. Try to stick to the topic. The topic is the Dalai Lama, not Christina Rosetti

No matter how much you'd like to discuss her, she's totally irrelevant to this discussion. You remind me of those people who attack Dennis Kucinich for his spiritual beliefs.

The topic is that the Dalai Lama was tutored, at his own request, by a member of the SA and the SS. And that he maintained close ties with past and present Nazis.

The topic is that the Dalai Lama's Tibet worked closely with the Nazis on racial purity and the sickening occultic beliefs that Himmler and Eichmann adopted.

The topic is that the Dala Lama isn't a Marxist or a born-again reincarnated God, he's a fraud who clasps his hands together and peddles some of the most selfish bullshit out there to justify exploitation of the working class in Tibet.



Again, this is the topic












(With the head of the Nazi Movement in Chile. Way to go!)


Miguel Serrano, just so people understand this is no "reluctant Nazi"

Can you try to stick to the topic?

[GReedDiamond]

169. Thanks for ordering me to do whatever it is you...

...think I should do.

From now on, I will be sure to PM you with all of my intended posts here on DU to make sure they are up to snuff.

If you approve, only then will I post.

Thanks for straightening me out, "Catherina."

[Catherina]

170. If you can't stick to the topic, please do. You're most welcome n/t

Quizás el nombre de Miguel Serrano no les diga mucho, pero si les digo que se trata de un escritor chileno fanático de Hitler y negador del Holocausto, va a importar una mierda si lo conocen o no, porque se van a aliviar igualmente con su muerte porque, es una persona menos en el mundo que piensa esas barbaridades.



As a parting gift, here's his good friend in technicolor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GOmkF23MJA&feature=player_embedded#!

Miguel Serrano, avowed head of the Nazi Party. Most people run in horror from any association with this kind of scum. "Eternal glory to our Fuehrer Adolf Hitler". Sickening.

[GReedDiamond]

171. Thanks for not making your point...Good Night to You, Catherina - nt

[Catherina]

172. Don't go to bed mad... lol n/t

[GReedDiamond]

173. I'm always mad at what's going on...

...have been for well-over thirty-five years, going back into the legendary "Viet Nam War" days.

I go to bed "mad," but always wake up with the determination to to, someday, SMILE & BE HAPPY!

Until then, I call bullshit, bullshit, when I see it, or, in this case, here on DU, step into it.

I see where you quote Zappa, a very nice quote.

Just so you know, I'm a musician, I recorded a song with my band which featured Don Preston, a member of Zappa's Mothers of Invention. I suspect Zappa would tend to disagree with your "Dalai Lama nazi" allegations, were he here today. But that's just as presumptive as your claims here.

Latersville.

[NoSheep]

77. Rupert Murdoch owns the History Channel. n/t

[No Elephants]

100. Thanks. I didn't know that. Crap!

ETA: "Crap" is a negative reaction to learning that Murdoch owns the History Channel, not a comment on your post.

[roguevalley]

40. one of his tutors was a nazi, a mountain climber who was a nazi.

[NoSheep]

81. I read the guy's book. I don't think he had a political agenda. I think he was a climber trying to

get the fuck out of Germany, which is exactly what I would have done. If you knew anything about Germany in those years you would realize a lot of people joined the party to keep their jobs. It didn't mean they shared any idealogy at all with Adolph Hitler.

[Catherina]

133. No, that's the part of the myth. Harrer was an SS member in the 30s

Nobody was forced to be a Nazi in the early 30s. It was against the law in Austria. Harrer volunteered to be a member of the SA in 1933 and became a member of the SS right after Germany invaded Austria.

I was in Germany when this broke. The Germans were so angry and left no stone unturned. They had to expose Harrer who kept lying about his past and his involvement with the Nazis.

The German magazine Stern had an excellent article called "Ein Held mit Braunen Flecken" ("A Hero with Brown Stains"). I can't find it online.


Don't buy the myth please.


Here's a picture of him with Adolf Hitler. You don't get chummier than this. The reluctant Nazi defense doesn't work for Harrer.



Heinrich Harrer (2nd from left) with Adolf Hitler, Breslau (Wroclaw), July 1938
Source: Der Spiegel, No. 45, 3 Nov 1997, p. 146

[NoSheep]

176. That does not impugn the Dalai Lama, does it?

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kgnu_fan]

187. I actually have met him, Heinrich Harrer... he is a wonderful person

You need to actually read the original book Seven Years in Tibet. It is far different story from what depicted in the Hollywood movie version.

[Union Yes]

5. So am I. knr nt

[Francisco]

9. I think anyone with half a brain would..

also call themselves Marxists. People who hate Marxism are actually Marxists they just don't call themselves that because they have been conditioned to hate the term and in reality most people don't even know what it truly means.

[NoSheep]

183. Isn't that the truth.

[kgnu_fan]

189. Yes, people really need to read Marx then discuss. Too much ignorance here

[Ozymanithrax]

15. So the ultimate embodiment of spirituality is also the opiate of the masses and a marxist capitalist

Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are.

[wial]

16. so, the Grateful Dead and the Nazi SS got their skull symbol

from the same source, Tibetan Buddhism. How is either ridiculous western spiritual inflation Tibetan Buddhism's fault? The Dalai Lama is capable of seeing the Buddha nature even in nazis and republicans. We should be too, if we want to call ourselves progressives at all.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Same way the human vagina is responsible for the Edsel.

Anyway, IMNSHO people who feel compelled to piss and moan about the Dalai Lama OR The Grateful Dead (your loss, if you never got it, that's all I'm gonna say) .... really need to find better hobbies.

[No Elephants]

108. What ever happened to blaming the Bossa Nova or putting the blame on Mame (boys)?

Did you have to blame the Edsel on the vagina?

(j/k, in case that's not clear)

[RollWithIt]

18. Politics is local.... nt

[grantcart]

19. and monks should stay away from politics

Unfortunately this has everything to do with China and little to do with Buddhism.

[ProudDad]

21. You don't konw much about Buddhism, do you... too bad ...

Or Marxism, I suspect...

You probably don't know much about Capitalism either...worst form of exploitation ever invented...

[sam sarrha]

29. Buddhism is based on Equanimity, ".May all beings live in Equanimity, free of the Grasping, Anger,

and Aversion that causes us to hold some beings near and others distant..

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/A%20-%20Tibetan%20Buddhism/Subjects/Love%20Compassion%20and%20Bodhicitta/The%20Four%20Immeasurables%20-%20From%20'Buddhism%202001'/The%20Four%20Immeasurables.htm

[proteus_lives]

45. Yeah, communism/marxism has a much better track-record.

Are packing up for North Korea?

:rofl:

[grantcart]

54. I read the collected works of Marx at the undergraduate level and I was

the only graduate student at Princeton Theological Seminary to take a graduate course on Marx and theology and the only one to take an independent study on Buddhism (under Dr. Donald Swearer).

I worked for the UN and negotiated with People's Republic of Vietnam and spent considerable time there.

While in Thailand I converted to Therevada Buddhism.


Monks should not get involved in politics although in rare instances they may have to make a stance against oppression but this is consistent with Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada . But Marx's historical premises are even more at odds with basic Buddhist cosmology.

Marx based his understanding of the evolution of economic epochs on Hegel's historical dialectic. Buddha's teaching of anicca (impermanence) is completely at odds with the idea of a point to historical development, Buddha taught that all human activity is cyclical in nature and not building to a significantly different historical age.

Of course it is possible to be a Buddhist lay person and endorse different political beliefs including Marxism but you would have to do so on the sole basis of Dukkha (suffering). In other words you could accept the policies of Marxism as reducing suffering but still not embrace the philosophical foundations that Marx put forth.

There is a fundamental conflict between Marx and Buddha in that Marx was a materialist and Buddha obviously was not as attachment to the material world is perceived by Buddha as being the central impediment to achieving enlightenment.

The duty of a monk however is to serve as a beacon of light Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada (pathway to freedom from suffering) and proceed through the four stages of enlightenment, none of which are tied to politics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment

In order to spare you from further embarassing yourself on this point let me cite one of the US most widely known Buddhist Scholars, Dr. Paul Harrison:


http://buddhism.about.com/b/2008/04/09/buddhism-and-politics.htm

“Direct involvement in political activity, strictly speaking, is not sanctioned” by the Buddha's teaching, he said. Traditionally, the role of Buddhist monastics and clergy was limited to advising rulers on the proper application of Buddhist teachings to government, Harrison continued.


Again strictly speaking Monks should not be involved in politics but there will arrive certain extra ordinary events like the Burmese suppression of freedom, including religious freedom, that have forced monks to take public acts of defiance, but these acts should not be considered political acts in themselves but extensions of their monkhood as they are acting to reduce suffering of the people and increase the freedom of people to follow the Eightfold Path.

Ironically the Buddhist teacher I respect the most Bhikkhu Buddhadasa was at one time accused of being a communist as were many of his followers. His teachings had a great impact on many social movements and he saw religion as being largely a unifying social force. He did not however participate in politics as such and as an observant ascetic monk living in a forest monestary he was a non materialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhadasa



(Oh on capitalism - after I left the UN I founded a furniture company that grew to 450 employees and was the largest producer of its kind to IKEA).

[cliffordu]

57. Crickets. Not being a Buddhist I've got a little side action on the length of time

it'll take for your critic to squelch the crickets and step up....

:rofl:

[No Elephants]

99. Very impressive qualifications to post an opinion on what monks should do.

Not sure if I agree or not, but I don't know if I've ever seen on a message board better creds for making a post.

Just a comment: I think there may be a difference between politics and expressing an opinion on how resources should morally be owned and distributed. I know there are arguments on both sides of that, but some do say that Communism is an economic system, not a political system. (Personally, I am not at all sure how you can have one without the other, but that's only me.)

[grantcart]

145. The role of monks differs in the different traditions

Theravada is the system in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia and Laos. The rules for monks are very specific.

Mahayana is the system for China and Vietnam and monks have a history of broader social involvement.

Tibet has their own system and their monks including the Dalai Lama have been deeply involved in government for centuries.

In Japan their are many different kinds of Buddhist monks and priests. It is not unusual for Priests to marry and live at the temple and to pass the job of priesthood to their oldest son.

It is perfectly acceptable for a Buddhist layman to accept the economic strategy of communism if they feel that it will significantly reduce suffering.

[Odin2005]

24. I see the Dalai Lama haters are out!

Seriously, how can somebody hate the DALAI LAMA!?! :puke:

[sam sarrha]

27. it's easy if one hates everything.. that is Cynicism, conclusion comes first..Premise follows,

[EFerrari]

28. Seriously.

lol

[kestrel91316]

86. China has a cadre of people paid to slander the Dalai Lama on the internet.

[liberation]

157. I don't think the ones here are paid, and if they are China should ask for their money back

Some Americans simply have a pavlovian response to terms like "Marxism." They have never read Das Kapital, they don't even know who Marx was, or what the main points of Marxist theories and ethos are/wer... however they are certain that whatever it is... it must be real bad.

I don't like "isms" in general. And I would be disingenuous if I were to pretend something like Communism, which was a XIX century reaction to a late XVI century "invention," does not have its own set of problems and shortcomings. I don't believe we should pigeonhole our social progress to theories which did not have the level of understanding and insight we have accrued in the 3 centuries Capitalism has been around en force, or the few decades Communism had to attempt to transform feudal societies into an utopia.

It is the XXI century, it is time to evolve I say. We can do much better, if we don't the planet will find a way to treat us as a disease and we will be flushed. Which I find it ironic, because most hard core capitalist are in love with the whole "survival of the fittest" concept, but they truly do not understand what that means if we take it to its ultimate consequences in nature. I truly think some of these idiots are deluded enough that they can buy their way out of extinction once it is clear we are not capable of respecting nature's balance (and thus we made it clear we are not fit). Nature is the cruelest and coldest of selection mechanism, and they don't seem to grasp that, most likely because even though they are the most ardent advocates of selection... they have never had to go through the process themselves.

However, from a humane stand point... Marx works makes a whole lot more sense than Smith and his "invisible hands" bullshit. I don't believe in "invisible friends in the sky telling me how I should live my life, and thus I don't particularly appreciate "invisible hands and markets" controlling my whole existence..

To his credit though, Adam Smith understood the concept of having at the very least a social contract, since capital alone is a fairly sociopathic metric. Which made it clear to me, that Rand and the rest of his objectivist cadre had very poor reading and comprehension skills... or they were simply trying to find an ethos to justify their own sociopathic disorders.

[AngryOldDem]

195. It's DU.

I saw the Dalai Lama when he was in Indianapolis last week. Even from where I sat, in the nosebleed section, I could sense peace and holiness about the man. And I am about as nonreligious and cynical as they come.

His message was simple: Respect all, even if their beliefs differ from yours; change what you can and come to peace with what you can't.

Good advice for this site.

[Better Believe It]

25. And I'm a duck who knows how to use a computer!

[MellowDem]

31. The Dalai Lama has little understanding...

which isn't surprising considering he's a "spiritual leader". Capitalism is just a system of economics. A democracy adds the "moral ethics" side by allowing the people to vote on how the economic system is run and regulated. A democracy could institute Marxism as their form of economics. There are no "capitalist" countries. It's all a mix of socialist and capitalist policies.

Marxism has no more moral ethics than capitalism. Marxism strives for a society where we are all equal. Capitalism is all about efficiency, and through efficiency, making us all "rich" or "wealthy" (whatever your definition of those mean). Thus the idea that we can all be poor but equal at the expense of efficiency, or we can all be relatively much better off but have vast inequalities in our society. Of course, we have laws that help address the inequalities. There is collective ownership. I like the idea of mixing the two and think it works very well personally. Anyone who is all one way or the other generally comes off as naive/close-minded.

[liberation]

36. Speaking of little understanding...

[MellowDem]

46. One-liner followed by nothing. Hit and run cowardice.

[go west young man]

53. Capitalism is about efficiency?

Then how come I can't get just the channels I want from my crap cable provider instead of packaged programming that sucks? Doesn't seem to efficient to me. How come the electric car died and the oil dinosaurs continue to rule the earth? How come the miltary industrial complex is able to charge $400 for a hammer. How come the banks failed yet they were given a handout by the government when they did so. How come all major industries are in collusion with each other these days? Capitalism isn't about efficiency. It's about making a buck.

[MellowDem]

58. You can say the same about Marxism...

or any "ism". There is no such thing as pure capitalism or Marxism etc. A society will never be wholly "equal", just as it will never be wholly "efficient". Of course, many of the complaints you list can be attributed to monopolies, which generally pervert the idea of free market economics. It just goes to show that any system needs regulation and that no system can be run only on an idea or theory alone. In terms of wealth creation, it's impossible to find a system out there that is more "efficient" at creating wealth. Such as allowing most everyone to have cars, or buy oil, or own TVs. That in and of itself is huge.

[kestrel91316]

89. Capitalism doesn't "make us all rich". ROFLMFAO. It makes a few

VERY rich, all at the expense of the remainder, who are made poorer.

[MellowDem]

107. Really?

Then how do you explain what is happening in China? They went from an economic system mainly based on Marxism to an economic system mainly based on capitalism. It has been an oligarchy in both cases. Now there is a growing middle class in China and the poor are even seeing some benefits of the growing wealth of society. The standard of living is rising, and with it expectations of wages and treatment.

I was using "rich" as a relative term. As in, the US is one of the richest nations on Earth. Indeed, all of the wealthiest nations have a capitalist-socialist mixed system. The poor of America are much "wealtheier" than the poor of most other nations. Our standards of living and our standards of poverty are very high compared to others because of this.

Pure capitalism, which doesn't exist, would have much greater inequalities. But I was referring to mixed systems.

[ProudDad]

205. When did the Chinese have a system "based on Marxism"?

NEVER is the answer...

Now the Chinese are enjoying (state) capitalism's gift of (in certain regions) a hugely unequal society with a very few HAVES living the "high life" (read contributing mightily to global warming and Peak Oil)...

...and the vast majority of heavily exploited and overworked have-nots.

Way to go, capitalism...!

[DesertDiamond]

118. When was capitalism every *really* about making us *all* rich?

It's always unabashedly been about getting rich off of someone's labor. And the principle behind that, get as much labor as you can while paying as little as you can, and sell as high as you can while giving as little product as possible... I have never, ever associated this in my mind with the phrase "moral ethics." For me, someone who gets rich this way is neither moral nor ethical.

[MellowDem]

131. Like I said...

capitalism doesn't have moral ethics. Neither does Marxism. Capitalism is inherently about competition and specialization to increase efficiency. Increasing efficiency can greatly increase wealth for everyone. Marxism is about sharing the wealth, not creating it. If there is little or no wealth to share in the first place, it won't matter much. You could just as easily mischaracterize Marxism as living off someone else's labor. But it just makes you look naive.

[Lagomorph]

34. Capitalism doesn't HAVE to be only about profits.

We'd be in much better shape if we learned to play the long game, rather than just maximizing the current quarter and letting the corporation sink or swim on it's own.

Maybe we wouldn't have such cushy pensions, but at least they'd be funded.

[liberation]

37. Huh, so capitalism doesn't have to be about its only reason to exist?

I thought the CAPITAL in CAPTIALism was hint enough...

[Lagomorph]

63. Only if you are literal...

to the point of stupidity.

Good habits are good habits. Anything we can do to mitigate reoccurring social problems would be good for the economy, even if it meant giving up a portion of of your cut, would it not?

Using realistic analysis when planning would be better than making unrealistic assumptions. To fund California's pensions, the stock market would have to be over 28,000 today and 28,000,000 by 2099. Why would anybody sign off on that?

[liberation]

152. Right, because doublethink is soooo much more "enlightened"

Either something is or it isn't. This whole constant moving of goal posts and massaging of definitions in order to fit narratives is incredibly disingenuous.

Capitalism is very clear what it is about, just because the hubris is too obvious to deny... it doesn't mean you can redefine what something is whenever it stops looking good.

That wast the whole point of capitalism: the invisible hand of the market guided by profits in order to lead to the most efficiency, profit measured in capital. I mean, it is in the freaking name of the thing.

[Quantess]

38. It doesn't?

I thought that was the very definition of capitalism.

[No Elephants]

105. We may now live in a plutonomy, rather than in a capitalist society.

If so, we don't want to play the long game, any more than we want that oil well in the Gulf to be shut down very slowly.

I agree as to quarters vs. long term, though. I just think we are coming closer to needing radical change, not fine tuning.

[Hippo_Tron]

41. From this thread it looks like President Obama and the Dalai Lama have something in common

They're the only two people in the world who can manage to be Marxist Nazis.

[Hardrada]

42. LOL! Mind-boggling ain't it?

[truthisfreedom]

47. Marxist Muslin Nazis.

[No Elephants]

111. Good one.

[fascisthunter]

120. incredible indeed

[usregimechange]

48. Um, not good for him, marxism is flawed and oversimplified

[No Elephants]

112. Unlike capitalism?

[liberation]

153. "I don't believe in 'isms' " -- Ferris Bueller

I wish more people adopted that mantra. ;-)

I always felt capitalist blaming marxist theories... was the very example that whole "ignoring the industrial grade 2 ton iron beam in your eye, to focus on the spec in thy neighour's eye" was referring to.

[bitchkitty]

49. I want to have cocktails with this guy. n/t

[D23MIURG23]

50. Something about this seems mildly ironic... hmm just cant seem to put my finger on it...

[FightingBobsghost]

51. Huh?

Maybe he meant Groucho...

[No Elephants]

123. Spewed!

[HuckleB]

52. Isn't he whatever label the reporter asks him to be?

[superconnected]

59. I'm impressed with his books and teachings.

If he's pro Nazi and repressive Marxist, it certainly hasn't shown in his books.

I'd have to hear more on in what manner he means specifically before I could comment on him actually being a Marxist. I doubt it's what it's being portrayed as.

He's often said we should help each other and share and I'm pretty sure that's what he's going on. Regardless, his teachings are so good, if he is a Marxist, I don't care. I'm not taught to follow him unquestionably but to question everything and toss out what I can't use.

[kestrel91316]

90. You're just not reading him right. I'm sure it's all in there somewhere.......

support for gassing the Jews, support for gassing capitalists, lol.

He probably secretly hates gays, too.

[superconnected]

141. Yeah, I suppose crazy people who would invent anything just to be malicious

would invent that as well as believe that.

[liberation]

154. Apparently, from some of the responses to this thread... projection is not exclusive to the GOP fans

Because it takes some creative runaway projection to label the Dalai Lama as a "marxist nazi money grubber religious extremist." It is up there in creativity with the whole "marxist fascist muslim" crap they say about Obama.

Which leads me to believe many GOPers changed party affiliations recently, now that their preferred brand is damaged beyond repair.



Oh, well...

[kestrel91316]

164. Now you are beginning to understand....

[AlphaCentauri]

60. He probably just realize that capitalism is struggling to survive n/t

[SwampG8r]

62. i hope marxism shows him

he has no right to keep the tibetan people as slaves in a theocracy

[NoSheep]

79. Can you tell me anything about the lifestyle of a Tibetan living outside the area now controlled by

China?

[kestrel91316]

91. The Dalai Lama has SLAVES???? Tibet is a theocracy????

ROFLMAO. The Dalai Lama has no slaves, and hasn't lived in Tibet in decades, and China runs Tibet. And it's no theocracy under THEM.

[NoSheep]

93. Who ARE these people making these inane comments? LOL

We've been infiltrated by complete idiots!

[kestrel91316]

101. Paid Chinese shills - I have seen them get HATEFUL about the Dalai Lama

many times on DU. There's simply no other explanation.

[NoSheep]

177. WTF? Seriously. I can't get over what I'm reading here.

[Ignis]

136. Wow. Where are you receiving these transmissions from?

:freak:

[davidthegnome]

65. Interesting

I won't pretend to be well versed in Marxism, but I believe I understand the basic idea. To each according to their need, to each according to their ability. Seems pretty simple and straight forward to me. I think Marx was a good person. Were his ideas flawed? Sure, have you ever seen a perfect one?

To my knowledge, every form of government (that has been attempted) in existence is pretty inadequate and pathetic in comparison to the needs of the average citizen.

I don't see that changing without an evolution of the human mind. I think we're a long way from that yet.

[NoSheep]

95. Plus 1

[Romulox]

78. The Dalai Lama is the person who taught me the emptiness of Buddhism.

The man is obviously not the (or even 'a') Buddha. :shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

104. Isn't emptiness the whole point of Buddhism? nt

[Romulox]

114. And they say that a student who honors his teacher honors himself.

It's funny how paradox folds into itself.

Or maybe I chose the word "emptiness" ironically? Whichever floats your boat!

[Crowman1979]

87. Apparently the Dalai Lama didn't read Karl Marx's opinion about religion.

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.

Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

[NoSheep]

92. I'm not sure Buddhism is a religion. It's more a way of life. And it is

largely about selflessness as a means to ending suffering. A Buddhist would see some of Marx's ideas as more consistent with his own. Much more so that the brand of Capitalism we have now in the US.

[RaleighNCDUer]

109. That was, of course, written by a man who lived in a culture immersed

in Judeo/Christian (I hate that term) teachings - I doubt he gave a single thought to Buddhism as he wrote it or pondered the question. He came from a North European, industrial, enlightenment philosophy background which framed all his conclusions. Everything he said must be considered with those limitations in mind.

[NoSheep]

180. Not a single thought, I'm sure.

[No Elephants]

119. I am not normally a betting person, but I'd bet the DL is very familiar with that.

But, since we can't really exchange money over a message board, I guess I'm still not really a betting person.

[ChangoLoa]

138. I know atheist buddhists. nt

[liberation]

155. Buddhism, by definition, is atheist ;-)

It is just very hard for Westerners to pigeon hole some Eastern philosophies and schools of thought. This thread and some of its members being a clear example.

[NoSheep]

179. Thank you.

[ChangoLoa]

199. They need a clear boss for their universe.

They want to know who is the guy in charge.

A classic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Odin2005]

203. This Atheist with Buddhist leanings says +1

[w4rma]

106. As long as he isn't a Stalinist. (nt)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

113. Isn't that a bit like Lady Gaga saying she's a communist?

[superconnected]

142. Or the right wing saying we're all communists. Lots of outlooks on a name.

Could be that we all agree with his point. I haven't heard it yet.

[No Elephants]

115. No human is perfect. eom.

[kentauros]

117. I knew he was a Marxist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOtkQAUwpFs

[fascisthunter]

121. Oh Oh... ya did it now Dalai Lama... you claimed to be a Marxist!!!!!

and now you are a nazi sympathizer....

[femrap]

127. Does this dude ever

travel with monkettes? I guess they're called 'nuns' and do all the crap work. I never see women Buddhists around him. Maybe there aren't any.

Anyone know? I'm not a fan of organized religions...it seems that the Buddhists don't go out of their way to start wars, but when they put the women in the back, I know something is wrong.

[leftyladyfrommo]

158. Yes. There are women monks.

But these monks really take their vow of celibacy seriously so they probably just stay away from women most of the time.

Pema Chrodon is a female nun. She is a high up at the Nova Scotia Monastery. But there are lots of others, too.

[femrap]

161. Are the women called 'monks'

or are they called 'nuns?'

So male monks can't control their 'drives' and they make the women hide? Just another silly organized religion with all its hierarchy and taboos on sex.

Gee, sounds like fun to be stuck up in Nova Scotia at a monastery.

Seriously, do men have brains that they use or are they just a Pavlovian animal that jumps to attention at the sight of breasts? And why do women have to pay the price for them being so beastlike?

Arm the women.

[leftyladyfrommo]

185. I don't think you understand what it is to be a mystic.

And women are called nuns but its the same training. Buddhist nuns shave their heads and wear the robes.

People aren't forced to live like that. They choose to. To them it is preferable. For them the harum scarum of daily life in the big city is intolerable.

They often sit and meditate for hours every day. And the rest of the day often is hard physical work. It's all part of the training. It's the same at Zen monasteries.

There are some really important reasons for celibacy when people are on the Buddhist path - or any mystical path.

[femrap]

194. I'd bet the

boy monks enjoy a more comfortable mystical path than the girl nuns.

If you believe that there isn't a patriarchy system in this Buddhist system, then you are on a path of denial.

The language itself...males are monks; women are nuns.

I'm done.

[leftyladyfrommo]

202. No mystical path is comfortable - they are designed to be very uncomfortable

And there is bias against female nuns - I've heard the DL address it. He was really concerned. But people will be people.

I don't there is where Pema Chrodon is however. She is really famous in Buddhist circles. She travels all over and speaks and writes books.

[Warren DeMontague]

160. I hear he's reincarnated himself a few times, and has been many different people.

Neat trick, huh?


It's probably a humbling experience.

[McCamy Taylor]

130. Go Marxism!

[blindpig]

146. What nonsense

He is an medieval potentate in exile and a shill for the CIA. One cannot embrace capitalism and call oneself a Marxist.

[BOG PERSON]

151. Absolutely true

He is an erstwhile slave-owner who couldn't even change his diaper without CIA assistance.

[Catherina]

159. That quote was really funny.

I know no Marxist who would have "credited China's embrace of market economics for breaking communism's grip over the world's most populous country".

That's as ridiculous as the claim to be a living "God-king" through some god-based reincarnation magic.

[Odin2005]

174. Wow, that BS post made you just lose a lot of the respect I had for you.

:puke:

[blindpig]

190. Well then...

refute it.

[kgnu_fan]

188. Have you ever read Marx yet? Capitalism is only one form of economy that will have to progress to

a higher form of economy ... it is not dichotomy ... Marxism is taught as a basic economic study in schools in other part of the world. Too bad, most American are deprived of this important concept as basic knowledge.

[blindpig]

191. Some, and I am quite familiar with the idea

However, once capitalism has attained the productive capability to make socialism possible it is to be superseded. The Communist leadership of China has betrayed the revolution, unless what they are up to is some sort of stealth NEP writ very large, which seems unlikely and a very dangerous gamble which is almost guaranteed to get out of control.

[kgnu_fan]

197. Experimentation and exploration is the idea Marx left with us

So far Soviet version or Chinese version had some rough spot to achieve the potential. Meantime, how about us in America? We need to be brave and move ahead with true potential of what we have. I recommend anyone to read Naomi Klein. She had some interesting ideas. If American ingenuity and creativity is real, we can move forward to a higher dimension. Currently, this country is asleep.

[NoSheep]

204. +1

[NoSheep]

178. The Dalai Lama would laugh his ass off at this entire thread.

[NoSheep]

184. I want to hear from folks in this thread who have met Tibetans.

tell me about their Nazi ways :rofl:

[kgnu_fan]

186. First of all, Tibetans tend to be always laughing, joking yet in a quiet way

They believe that our life is a great opportunity to become enlightened and keep mumbling Om Mani Padme Hun... or something like that. Our life itself is meditation, some of they say. They talk a lot about how much they love the land of Tibet and how much they love Dalai Lama. And in general, they are beautiful and fun loving and just plain good people. Whenever I stop by at their place for five minutes for a chat, I ended up staying for one hour....feeling like I am one of them.

[NoSheep]

196. I was in Nepal in 94. met Tibetans who lived in the Mustang district

I told me friend if I ever lost my senses or ability to live in western society, she could just drop me off with the Tibetans. They are an amazing people. This thread is the weirdest thing I've read on DU in my entire time here.

[kgnu_fan]

198. I agree. It is indeed becoming wierder ...