In Canada once more, U.S. troops fleeing a war

[IScreamSundays]

Source: USAToday

ORONTO — Patrick Hart came here in 2005, when he couldn't face a second deployment to Iraq. A U.S. Army sergeant with almost 10 years of active duty, he would rather stay in Canada forever than return to a war he thinks is wrong.
Hart, 36, knows that some people think he is a traitor, but he has no regrets. "I've bled for my country, I've sweated for my country, I've cried myself to sleep for my country — which is a lot more than some people who are passing judgment on me have done," he says. "I would rather go sit in prison than go to Iraq."

Deportation, court martial and prison are imminent threats to Hart and about 200 other U.S. troops seeking sanctuary in Canada. Despite being members of an all-voluntary military, some oppose the war in Iraq so strongly they are willing to leave their country behind — much like Americans of an earlier generation who crossed the border in the 1960s and '70s to avoid serving in Vietnam and built new lives here.

Some of the draft dodgers and deserters of the Vietnam era, most of them now graying Canadian citizens, are helping the young deserters fight legal battles and find work and housing.

snip>

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-05-23-war-resisters_N.htm?csp=34news

[cowman]

1. Canada

should send everyone of those deserters back to face a court martial. They have no excuse for desertion, they knew when they took the oath that they could possibly go into combat. I didn't agree with Vietnam but when I got my orders, I went, I didn't take the cowards way out and flee to Canada.
Canada, send them back to face justice

[mynameiswhat]

3. I agree

I wanted to join the Marine Corp after HS but due to a medical problem i was unable to join. Now i am going to school to serve my country as a police officer keeping American citizens safe here at home. Thank you for your service.

[cowman]

7. Thank you for you service

My daughter is a Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Officer. Didn't want to be a Firefighter/Paramedic like her dad.
Again, thank you and all police officers for putting you lives on the line each day to keep us safe

[msongs]

4. After Nuremburg, following orders is not longer a valid defense nt

[mynameiswhat]

6. order to kill civilians. but if you sign up you should know what you could have to do.

[cowman]

9. It's a volunteer Army

They didn't have to join. I could have fled to Canada but I didn't because that's the cowards way out

[defendandprotect]

14. And denying one's own conscience and sense of right is brave?

[cowman]

20. Then they should never have

joined because they knew that they could be sent into combat.

[defendandprotect]

27. You missed the point . . ..

Here is what you said of your own conscience, thoughts --

"I didn't agree with Vietnam but when I got my orders, I went" --

Obviously, you denied your own conscience, your own sense of right --

It takes bravery to follow your conscience, especially against the MIC -- !!

[cowman]

30. That's right

because when I took the Oath I took it seriously. I never even thought of running away.

[defendandprotect]

43. So an "oath" to fight an imperialist war for your country was more

important than your own conscience and your own sense of right and wrong?

You might not have thought of running away given a desk job --

but how about dropping napalm on kids from a plane?

Or torturing Vietnamese? Burning villages to save them?

Where would you have drawn the line?

Maybe you were lucky and never had to --

[cowman]

46. I was a Navy Seabee

stationed at Dong Ha and saw a lot of combat with the Marines at Con Thien. Never saw an atrocity committed during my year there, but I did see alot of atrocities by the VC

[defendandprotect]

47. Well, you must have missed the CIA program -- "Operation Phoenix" .. where we

tortured and murdered minimum of 60,000 Vietnamese --

That was a favorite of Gen. Ed Landsdale -- involved in the JFK coup --

he liked to take them up in helicopters -- beat and torture them -- and then throw

them out of the copter alive.

You can find that in Congressional testimony --

McCone, for one, I think acknowledged it --


And probably the idea that "we had to burn the village to save it" was another VN

fantasy that never happened!!???


Yeah -- those tough little 4 foot Asians were simply beasts -- just shrugged off the napalm!

Just in case -- the last sentence is :sarcasm:

[dencol]

67. Because if you didn't see it, it didn't happen, right?

Ignorance of such a magnitude is disgusting.

[Lagomorph]

94. It wasn't as cut and dried as that....

...there were rumors, denials, propaganda, outright lies, war stories and while in country, there were blood thirsty threats against injuring civilians along with promises of long prison terms. It wasn't hard to mentally segregate yourself from the "whackos" who went crazy. If there was a whiff of a rumor, most troops went to their superiors. This was followed by a flood of CID investigators. It wasn't hard to believe that it was being dealt with and we were there for the right reasons. Either the government or the press had complete control of the message.

What we did NOT have access to was newspapers or TV.

[LanternWaste]

96. you ran away from what you agreed with.

"I never even thought of running away."

However if your previous statements are true, you obviously ran away from what you agreed with-- you ran away from your own sense of morality. And if 'running away' is the equivalency of being a coward as you implied earlier, well... QED

Unless you simply failed to voice additional qualifiers to your statements of absolutism.

[readmoreoften]

17. So a bad decision at 18 is still valid at 27? Because these folks are being deployed 2-5 times.

And they're capable of being recalled--I've seen it--up to 9 years after enlistment.

[cowman]

18. That's bullshit

they knew exactly what they could face. When the going gets tough, they ran away. My daughter sure doesn't agree with the war in Iraq but like she told me, "whin I joined the army, I knew I would have to take the bad with the good". So, IMHO, they should be sent home to face justice.

[laughingliberal]

55. It is not bullshit. Most in the Viet Nam era were safe from going back after 1 tour

That is not the case now.

[saigon68]

80. I love it when "THE BIG TOUGH GUYS" show up

Its obviously part of the Sabrina Harman & Lyndie England Fan Club



SABRINA



LYNDIE

[laughingliberal]

84. No doubt. nt

[annm4peace]

90. Not BS and you know it.

You know that Rumsfield inacted the back door draft. You know that all service members whether career military, National Guard, or Reserves can be called back for 8 years.

You know because your daughter would have received notice about it.

[pinboy3niner]

93. Many of these troops didn't know about "Stop Loss" when they joined

They thought their service "contract" ended on their ETS date. They didn't know they could be involuntarily extended (or recalled to active duty) for a combined enlistment(s)+extension totaling up to 8 years.

Naturally, some stop-lossed troops felt betrayed--especially if they had already made the sacrifice of separating from their families and serving a couple of deployments, while the public at home was never called upon to make any sacrifice. The wars were financed by debt, while taxpayers--especially the wealthy--got tax cuts. And we only had to serve one tour in our war. Today, I would never use the term, "coward," for someone who has already served one or two deployments to Iraq or Afghanistan and doesn't want to go back.

It's hard not to sympathize with them. I don't know about you, but a lot of us felt betrayed after Vietnam--by our own government. We felt betrayed, lied to, used, cheated, and exploited. We served honorably, suffered and sacrificed, and shed our blood for a pack of lies. And when we got back, they forgot about those promises "to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan." Do you remember the reports about the rat-infested VA hospital wards? Vietnam vets had to fight for everything we got--for decent health care, for recognition of PTSD, for the Vet Centers, for recognition of the health effects of Agent Orange, and so much more. We, like the stop-lossed troops of today, have a special appreciation for the expression, "No good deed goes unpunished." A sense of betrayal is a powerful thing.

Rather than rush to judgment about troops who are opposing U.S. war policy and resisting a "backdoor draft" they never intended to sign on for, I think we ought to listen to them, and really hear what they have to tell us.

[defendandprotect]

23. So true . . . and what makes this even more effective is these are experience, long term

soldiers who quite well realize what we are doing in Iraq is so wrong!

One million innocent Iraqis murdeered!!

W should be in prison -- and these soldiers should be home with their families --

but they give me renewed confidence in Americans --

after all the doctors and soldiers who participated in torture!




:)

[truedelphi]

56. Thank you for the decency, sanity and humanity of

Your response. This situation is different from Vietnam in that the Military and the Government has failed the people who signed on.

When the young men and women signed on, they did not know that "Stop Loss" would be going into effect.

The contract has been broken from the Government's end, and therefore in a sane world, it would be "out' to simply say, I didn't sign up for ENDLESS duty.

[laughingliberal]

54. A volunteer army using stop loss to keep people for far longer than they signed up for. nt

[dencol]

65. But in joining, they didn't sign up for illegal wars and occupation.

They were betrayed by their country, who promises to seek justice and bring freedom - not kill millions in an illegal occupation.

[cartach]

45. What the hell does Nuremberg have to do with it ?

They signed up and took an oath to defend their country. If they had refused an order to kill innocent people that would be one thing but to refuse an order to serve a further tour of duty and to desert is entirely different. If this is acceptable with no repercussions then the door is open to all others in the armed services to do the same thing. If you can't depend on those who are supposed to defend your country when shit happens and circumstances worsen then the country is in even more trouble than I thought. Believe me, I know a few of them from the Vietnam era and to a man they are cowards and opportunists in the same league as Dick Cheney.

[defendandprotect]

48. So the government can change rules overnight, but soldiers have to

follow orders no matter what?

Why did they sign up? Do we have an impoverished military?

Are they on food stamps?

How do we know what they've been asked to do in a military that tortures?

When we have illegal wars of aggressive, we are no better than Hitler was --

and these are wars of aggression.

Listen to Kissinger --

“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.” –


Listen to Gen. Smedley Darling Butler - "War is a Racket!"

Here's the link to his brief book on that --

http://www.scribd.com/doc/27019914/War-is-a-Racket-by-Maj-Gen-Smedley-Butler-USMC

[dencol]

68. How is invading Iraq a defensive war?

What was the threat against us, again?

[defendandprotect]

13. "I didn't agree with Vietnam but when I got my orders, I went" --

"To thine own self, be true" . . .

[EFerrari]

49. Oh, hell no. Thank goodness these people who don't want to die

or kill in yet another stupid useless war for empire have a safe haven.

[laughingliberal]

53. I think the stop loss crap qualifies as a draft

If they don't let you out when your time is up, you've been drafted. My husband is a Viet Nam vet and he agrees with me on this.

[Scuba]

72. It's sort of a draft, but....

...the draft as I recall it was 'random' in that rich kids got drafted too. The current 'draft' only effects those who have voluntarily joined once.

I believe the real draft should be reinstated. Start sending rich kids to Iraq and the war will soon be over.

[defendandprotect]

75. Yes -- and also makes clear how many recognize they want no part of military . . .

Same with public -- MIC should have expired decades ago -- but it's still with us

delivering perpetual wars!!

[Xicano]

59. I served as an infantryman in the US Army and its your DUTY to disobey unlawful orders.

The Constitution of the United States of which we swore an oath to defend and protect is explicit and no where else in that document does it give the authority to wage war but for congress to make a DECLARATION of war. I don't remember congress making a declaration of war against either Afghanistan or Iraq.

And please spare me the mumbo jumbo about some extra constitutional crap granting the President war powers discretion. That is NOT how the constitution was written.

[dencol]

66. And you drive on the roads knowing you may be killed.

But that does not justify unlawfully and unjustly ramming into you as you're driving. Nor does it mean you deserve to be injured. Who would have thought at the time that the US would go to war based on a false premise?

[Arctic Dave]

87. Maybe you were a coward for not going to Canada.

If more people refused to fight illegal wars maybe they wouldn't happen.

It takes more balls to refuse illegal orders then to follow them.

[annm4peace]

2. I wish Canada would change back to giving troops sactuary

this is an illegal and immoral occupations.

I wish, hope, and pray more troops desert. The military is still sending troops back who have head injuries, PTSD, drug/alcohol abuse, etc. It is shameful.

there are over 130 suicides "in country" of Iraq or Afghanistan by our troops.

I would rather these troops flee to Canada or go AWOL than to keep this war going.

I'll say a prayer for Hart, and know that he is the "brave hero" but saying "NO SIR"!

[cowman]

10. Hero my ass

He's a fucking coward.

[dencol]

69. A coward would go against his moral convictions.

Starting a new life is brave. And so is taking a stand against murder, apparently.

[defendandprotect]

15. Agree with you ... and it is courageous to stand against this illegal war. . .

This is the most brutal and violent army we have ever raised --

and it's only natural that one's sense of humanity will fight against this

violence we are doing to Iraqis!

Glad to see that no matter how hard they try, it is still hard to make soldiers

murderers, especially for oil!

[demosincebirth]

26. How about the whole military deserting...what would happen?

What a pitifull idea.

[defendandprotect]

28. Guess that pretty much almost happened in Vietnam . . .

Allegedly officers were being shot -- they have a term for it -- "fragged"?

Many desderted in WWII, in fact, but we rarely hear about that --

In Vietnam, soldiers also deserted with drugs and alcohol --

anyway they could . . .

And soldiers are pre-deserting -- generally people with little opportunity sign up.

That's why US has taken on the mercenaries!!

[cowman]

31. Not even close

I would love to debate more but I have a very hungry 4 week old coyote pup that me and my wife are raising and she is letting us know that she is hungry. Y'all have a good night.
Peace Out

[defendandprotect]

74. Not sure what you want to debate . . . it's the "Bright Shining Lie of VN" . . .

MIC search for perpetual war and overtaking other nation's natural resources.

Our being there was against UN rulings --

Soldiers in VN were dropping out while serving --

Little of that is debatable --

PLUS WWII also had its deserters -- played down, however.

[annm4peace]

91. I would say if all that troops deserted, we would save a lot of tax dollars

and the Pentagon Military Complex would collapsed and we might have a chance to get our country back.

[defendandprotect]

5. Wasn't sure that Canada was going to permit this . . . but good for troops + Canada ..!!

I have more respect for someone walking away from the military than staying

-- this is the most cruel and brutal army we have ever raised.

And we're really getting very little news, IMO, on condition of the troops --

especially when they get home -- wounded, many with PTSD -- and health problems.

How can any of us live with what we have done to the Iraqis? It's inhumane -- immoral!

Same for Afghanistan!!

We have set some very ugly precedents -- some of them were far away -- genocide, enslavement

of Africans . . . but obviously we're in the same gene pool and the horrors will never end!!

We have also set the precedent of dropping the first atomic weapons on civilians . . .

What defense will we have one day if the same thing is done to us?

[defendandprotect]

8. What was it Kissinger said about soldiers . . . ??

“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.” –

Henry Kissinger, quoted in “Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW’s in Vietnam” by Monika Jensen-Stevenson


And, I noted, Harper is against letting these soldiers stay -- sad.

And, yes, our troops should have the right to personal conscience in all parts of military

life --

Maybe we wouldn't have had American soldiers torturing people?

[cowman]

11. What bullshit

they are fucking cowards. My youngest daughter has done 3 tours in Iraq and she would never, ever think of deserting.
Canada, send them all back to face court martial

[defendandprotect]

12. I'm sure Kissinger has no idea what he's talking about . . . don't worry, be happy!

And I'm sure you will be since these soldiers will be imprisoned!

[cowman]

16. As well they should be

Desertion during wartime is a offense punishable by death. Now, I don't advocate the death penalty but I do think that they should receive prison time and a dishonorable discharge. And yes I would be happy if they received prison time. They are a disgrace to their country and their comrades in arms. But you wouldn't know about that would you?

[defendandprotect]

19. Nonsense ... we all have the right to personal conscience no matter what

military rules say in their own interests --

Again -- obviously you're very caught up in punishment -- sad.

IMO, these people who have resisted this illegal and murderous war are the heroes --

these are people who give me renewed confidence in Americans and their ability to

resist violence.

This is a right wing illegal war which Obama is keeping going for the MIC.

They win, we lose! More than 1 million Iraqi civilians have also lost their lives to this!

Obviously, this will take a toll on the sanity of those serving --

You can't do harm to others without doing harm to yourself.



"Beware of those with a strong urge to punsih."

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xocet]

24. A War of Aggression is an Illegal War...

It is a good thing that some people are not sheep.

"Baa--I was just following orders...Baa!"

[defendandprotect]

25. Indeed -- as the UN has called it -- perhaps one day W and those who

lied will come to understand the great harm they have done to others?

Same for Afghanistan . . .

[demosincebirth]

29. Duh...? you join the military, you follow orders. Simple as that. If you

don't want to follow orders...uh...don't join.

[laughingliberal]

57. And if you sign up for a period of time and they don't let you out? nt

[demosincebirth]

81. You sign up for three years...three years is all you have to do. they...

can send you any place they want...as many times as they want, for three years.

[pinboy3niner]

83. No, actually, that's false

Your ETS (Expiration of Term of Service) may be in 3 years, but under "Stop Loss" they can INVOLUNTARILY extend you for UP TO FIVE MORE YEARS.

[laughingliberal]

86. Amazing! As long as this has now been going on, some remain unaware. Way to support the troops! nt

[annm4peace]

33. Lying to your country is a disgrace.

The "wars" are over.. we now have occupations that are never ending.
We have war profiteers who get away with electrocuting our own troops, giving them dirty water to drink and tainted meat to eat.


It is sham and continues to be.

I applaud any soldier who sees the light and goes to Canada.

[defendandprotect]

35. Agree . . . but just like in Vietnam people learn again that government

isn't necessarily to be trusted -- especially when MIC is involved!

Or a buck to be made!!

[Iowa]

63. You have been sold a bill of goods...

The rigid thinking, the hostility, the blind allegiance to authority, the lack of compassion... they are a dead give-away.

There is a WHOLE different way of looking at this issue. Don't be so quick to reject it.

[dencol]

70. Get off your pathetic high-horse.

It's disgusting how people who fight immoral wars think they can preach to everybody else. Maybe we should start locking up the people who kill innocent civilians if we're going to talk about locking people up over wartime issues.

[Flaneur]

79. Free Republic is thataway. Over to the right.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[annm4peace]

32. how sad your daughter has done 3 tours

and how stupid she has had too. I wish she would go to Canada also and take some others with her.

There are many troops who have never, ever gone to Iraq or Afghanistan.


there are over 2000 troops who have deserted.. and I applaud them and know it is a very hard thing to do.

[cowman]

34. Well,

She'll never do that because she has a sense of honor and duty, unlike these cowards

[annm4peace]

36. Honor and Duty ?

When they sent to another country to kill civilians, how is that honor?

There never was honor going to Afghanistan or Iraq.

You would rather see her end up shot, raped, head blown off, kill a child, hooked on drugs, etc.

than to flee to Canada?

[defendandprotect]

38. ... and I wish what you are so aptly describing wasn't true. . . !!!

Look at the troops coming home -- wounded, destroyed -- and ignored!!

[annm4peace]

40. and it still continues, no matter who is in office

If I was a parent of a soldier I was say get the hell out. You aren't fighting for a country or the people, you are fighting for Corporate Greed.

[defendandprotect]

44. Yes, Dems have been support these wars now since '06 ...!! Bankrupting Treasury....

doing harm to nation and citizens.

[cowman]

41. Well obviously

opinions differ and she has made her choice and although I disagree with it I am still damn proud of her and will stand behind her decision.
Feeding coyote pup while writing, kind of hard to do, but worth it to see this little gal have a life. Her mama was killed 3 days ago so i took it upon myself to save her and hope to release her when she gets big enough.

[defendandprotect]

37. You know . . .

it sounds so familiar because this is also the response you get when you

talk to anti-abortion folk who don't support "choice."

They'll say . . . I don't have to support choice for my daughter because I know

she'd never do anything like have an abortion! hmmmm....

The military these days offers a lot of unexpected challenges --

There's an old saying: "Never say never" --

[annm4peace]

39. I know many Veterans who say:

Go to Canada and fuck the rich and their fucking war.

These two "wars" have destroyed this country.

The only winners are the War Profiters.

I'm sick of the blind Patriotism.

[defendandprotect]

51. Yep ... "blind patriotism" I thought ended with Vietnam... but rw propaganda still works!!

Sad to say . . .

:)

[laughingliberal]

58. Yes, my husband is one of them. Viet Nam vet and thinks these wars are BS. nt

[defendandprotect]

Remember well talking with enlightened vets from VN . . . when they are honest . . wow!

Often I'd meet a few when I was campaigning for Dems --

They had a way about them of telling truth -- you know you'd never heard

anything like it before, the impact on them, the understanding of what

really went down.

[laughingliberal]

85. True. nt

[tucsonlib]

64. Just Curious

If a Wehrmacht soldier during WWII realized he was being asked to fight in an illegal and immoral war, and he deserted and fled to another country, was he a traitor and a coward in your eyes?

[Captain Hilts]

42. Correct. Their loyalty is to their comrades who are counting on them doing their job. nt

[EFerrari]

50. Right. And sometimes your job is to stop the stupidity.

And that's how the war ended in Viet Nam.

[defendandprotect]

77. Like helping them torture prisoners . . . ???

[Kolesar]

71. There is a creepy quote to start my week...eom

[classysassy]

52. The war criminals

that start wars never put their cowardly asses in harms way,so why should he keep taking chances they never take?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

78. +1000% --

Unquestioned obedience to MIC . . . sad!!

[zenprole]

88. Shhhh with the truth

Being censored (especially on DU) is a badge of honor.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

61. Patrick Hart has my deepest sympathies. The Bush Doctrine ....

....was not part of the deal for many of those who volunteered. I still hold out hope that Bush/Cheney will be prosecuted for war crimes.

[ClayZ]

62. What if they had a war and nobody came?

K and R

War is not healthy for children and other living things!!!

[Macoy]

73. He re-enlisted

He volunteered to join the Army. If he thought the war was wrong, why did he re-enlist? Why did he wait until it was his time to deploy to protest? He cashed his Army paycheck for 10 years……but when it is time for him to do his job, he bails. I am sorry; I do not see the hero in his actions. He is a self serving coward.

To me, a man of conscious would deploy, do a great job on the deployment, come back and announce he would no longer support the war and get out of the military.



Macoy

[pinboy3niner]

76. Re-read the first sentence. He refused a SECOND deployment nt

[ClayZ]

82. Sir, No Sir

http://www.sirnosir.com/the_film/synopsis.html

The Documentary that tells the suppressed story of the GI movement that helped end the Vietnam War.

[defendandprotect]

89. Thanks for the reminder . . . I've never gotten to watch it . . maybe this weekend!! Thank you!

:)

[annm4peace]

92. Great documentary.. then watch Winter Soldier

and then watch Winter Soldier II (the Iraq/Afghan war veterans)

and of course "Iraq for Sale".


and then see if you can say you want your sons or daughters to stay in the military.

[Kickin_Donkey]

95. Good.

More should flee. They all should.