'Anti-Muslim' ad sparks suit - Bus system refused to show ad aimed at those leaving Islam

[Bozita]

Source: Detroit News

Last Updated: May 28. 2010 1:00AM
'Anti-Muslim' ad sparks suit
Bus system refused to show ad aimed at those leaving Islam
Mark Hicks / The Detroit News


Detroit -- An ad aimed at Muslims who want to leave Islam that was rejected for display by a regional bus system has prompted a lawsuit alleging violation of constitutional rights.

"Americans have a right to know the truth -- Islam is a religion of intolerance and violence," said Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, the Ann Arbor public interest law firm that filed the lawsuit with the Law Offices of David Yerushalmi P.C. Thursday in U.S. District Court in Detroit.

"Christians, Jews and other non-Muslim minorities are persecuted in every country where Islam dominates," Thompson said in a news release.

The suit was filed on behalf of the Freedom Defense Initiative, which sponsored the ad and had sought to display it on Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation buses.

Read more: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100528/METRO01/5280364/1409/metro/-Anti-Muslim--ad-sparks-suit

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. Kind of a slam dunk...and it was clearly coming

[KamaAina]

2. I want to place an ad aimed at Christians who want to leave Christianity.

Think they'll take that one? Think anybody will take that one? :shrug:

[Llewlladdwr]

4. What makes you think they wouldn't?

Not that there's any need for it. It ain't exactly difficult to abandon Christianity.

[burnsei sensei]

11. The Christian who abandons Christianity

has merely changed his or her mind.
The faith, as practiced now, can conceive of how that happens, and holds some hope that the individual may change his or her mind again.
The Muslim who abandons the ummah has a name, he is an apostate.
Is the act of changing one's mind a crime? A taboo? Evil? Unspeakable?
What punishment does it merit in the Western world?

[The Stranger]

13. The Christian who abandons Christianity

is going to Hell, must be saved, and is also an apostate.

Just ask a Christian.

[burnsei sensei]

14. I would say:

ask a Christian of the 4th century to 1649.
Post 1649, the view of religion and society changed profoundly among Christians.
With the exception of reactionary, absolutist France.

And then I'd also say:
ask a Christian who has never studied history and meaning of the Wars of Religion in his or her life.
Americans have been trying very hard to forget the Wars of Religion and the Enlightenment in the last 50 years.
But being forgotten never stopped the truth from being true.

[Llewlladdwr]

15. As a Christian I have to quibble.

You state that the Christian who abandons Christianity "must be saved".

I disagree. Apostates should be prayed for and offered fellowship and counsel if they so desire. Your use of the word "must" indicates that anything (including violence) is permissible in order to bring them back to the fold and that simply isn't true. Christianity accepts the fact that the seed of faith will fall on ground where it first blooms but then withers.

[No Elephants]

34. Maybe your belief accepts that, but you cannot speak for all of Christianity.

[GreenStormCloud]

51. His posts does speak what is generally believed by Christians.

If you think that Christians teach that apostates are to be killed, as Islam does, then please find a link to a Christian mainline website that say it. Please note that it is very easy to find mainline Islamic sites that proclaim death to apostates.

[provis99]

21. you are correct.

[GreenStormCloud]

45. Christians in 2010 don't kill apostates, Muslims do. N/T

[Llewlladdwr]

5. In fact, here's an example.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/good-without-god-atheist-subway-ads-proclaim/

This article describes ad campaigns in New York City (both on buses and in the subway) promoting atheism.

[KamaAina]

7. I remember that.

But is it aimed specifically at Christians?

[Llewlladdwr]

8. *sigh* I suppose not....

You are of course, exactly correct. No one would ever accept an ad that was anti-Christian.

[Scuba]

10. Jews for Jesus hasn't had any problems.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. maybe because they dont say "judaism is a violent and intolerant religion"

as a preface for their ads.

[Scuba]

31. despite the fact that....

...it's a religion. Violent? Arguably. Tolerant? Arguably.

[No Elephants]

35. Jews for Jesus are Christians.

[GreenStormCloud]

52. They call themselves "fulfilled Jews". N/T

[KamaAina]

3. The Thomas More Law Center was founded by the Domino's Pizza guy

you know, the one who wants to build an all-Catholic city out in the Florida Everglades, with no condoms and no porn on pay cable. Seriesly.

Law Center board members have included such luminaries as Alan Keyes and Rick Santorectum. :eyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More_Law_Center

[Dappleganger]

6. They shouldn't allow just any old ad on the buses.

If they want to advertise, let them take out an ad in the paper or a billboard. Bus ads should have more restrictions because you can't choose to stay away from them as they drive through the city (you CAN avoid billboards or choose to not buy a paper).

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. i saw one on a nyc bus and was horrified. i have a lot of secular muslim friends

and that add was insulting as hell

[jobycom]

12. Kind of funny, a Christian oppressing Muslims while complaining about Muslims persecuting others.

I think we've find a replacement for the Con Air definition of irony.

[Llewlladdwr]

16. How is offering support to those contemplating a change in religious faith...

equal the oppression of that faith? Serious question. Would you agree that the atheist ad campaign described earlier in the thread amounts to the persecution of religious faith?

[jobycom]

17. "Islam is a religion of intolerance and violence..."

What was your question?

[Llewlladdwr]

19. My question was...

"How is offering support to those contemplating a change in religious faith equal to the oppression of that faith?". So now stating one's (negative)opinion on a religious faith equals persecution of that faith? So I can assume that your answer to my second question, "Would you agree that the atheist ad campaign described earlier in the thread amounts to the persecution of religious faith?" is a yes?

[jobycom]

20. No, your question was "Let me rephrase the issue in a straw man suit."

The ad wasn't "offering support to those contemplating a change in religious faith," it was an attack on Islam and an insult to Muslims in a very public forum which would only lead to more violence and bigotry and misrepresentation of others.

As for the intent of the ad, in case you had any doubts, they spelled it out clearly for you, and they didn't use pleasant, happy words like "offering support" and "Change in religious faith." They said, ""Americans have a right to know the truth -- Islam is a religion of intolerance and violence." Tell me again what their intention was in running those ads?

As for the atheist campaign, I looked at it and didn't see any connection to the bus ads or the even more offensive comments by the originator of the lawsuit, since it was a promotion of atheism and not an attack on another faith, so I ignored it as an attempted misdirection. Not to mention, there's a big difference when the overwhelming majority of believers gang up on a minority faith, and when a minority opinion sticks up for its beliefs against the overwhelming majority. People in the overwhelming majority never seem to grasp that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. i love the last two sentences. excellent post in general but the last 2 sentences are so true

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. Bookmarking this subthread

May come in handy later When this christonut inevitably complains about something bad "mean atheists" are saying about Christians. You know that will happen, they can't help it.

[Skelly]

33. a serious question

Isn't that a dangerous generalization? Like the article states:
"The SMART bus company, or any bus company, should not be used to marginalize a minority group."

Is it then OK to marginalize a majority group?

I really do not think it is the numbers that present the problem. It is the message. Whichever side of the message you stand on, the other side is in error.

One may not agree with the message, but that does not make it unconstitutional.

Let's look at the two ad:
"Fatwa on your head? Is your family or community threatening you? Leaving Islam? Got questions? Get Answers!"

"Don't Believe in God? You are not alone."

Looking at just the ads, any hidden message is not that obvious. In fact, they could be from the same group.

Now, because we DO know the message behind the first, (although I have to question if SMART knew BEFORE the lawsuit), it has been deemed unacceptable by many who do accept the Atheist ad.

But the question before the courts will be one of constitutionality, not what is PC or even decent.

If a similar ad was aimed at someone who currently belongs to the teaparty (a minority group of mostly republicans) yet is having second thoughts, would it be as inappropriate? Or, if the minority/majority issue is only with faiths, a similar ad aimed at the Jim Joneses of the world would not be defensible?

I am not sure if I am making my question clear. But I do not see it as a numbers issue (minority/majority), and in fact can see danger in that attitude.

[No Elephants]

36. How do you marginalize the majority?

Majority v. minority is indeed a consideration in the law. The majority is able to get its way, by vote sand by other action. The minority cannot and therefore only courts can protect it (assuming a Constitutional issue is involved to begin with).

[MellowDem]

42. Wrong...

The courts protect both the majority or minority. And your assertion of "majority" has to be called into question as well, since it's not like all Christians vote en mass or don't have multiple divisions between them. If you split them into denominations, the religion with the "majority" would be Catholicism, and even there it's a huge slew of different opinions.

The majority can be persecuted just like any other group can be. To not think so is just.... well ignorant.

There are many people who think Christianity is a violent and intolerant religion, but you don't think they should have the right to say so through advertisement?

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Please read post 38. The group behind this ad are bigots and racists...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4402018&mesg_id=4402947

[MellowDem]

86. So if a bigot/racist...

says Islam is intolerant and violent, it's not OK, to the point that it should be illegal to advertise such a statement. But if someone says Christianity is intolerant and violent, a very general comment that at the least is ignorant, and more likely could be described as "bigoted", then it should be the same standard. I've seen some people here on DU say just this, but they don't get kicked for being bigots/racists, yet they are basically spouting logic that is the same as this group's. There are a lot of bigots in this world and a lot of ignorance. Unfortunately, we can't avoid it or make it "illegal", but we can try to educate as best as possible. Trying to cover up this ignorance never works. You have to counter it.

While the message is obviously offensive, I think it should be allowed.

[Violet_Crumble]

88. It still makes them a bigot or a racist...

Not sure where you've come up with it being illegal to advertise such a statement, though. If the bus system refuses to show an ad, that's their right to do so, isn't it?

[MellowDem]

107. I guess I misunderstood the story...

because I do believe it is in the bus system's right to refuse.

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. But the 'fatwa' ad goes a lot further that the "you are not alone" one

By talking about a fatwa 'on your head', and a family or community 'threatening' someone, they are making accusations of coercion, with implications of possible violence.

The atheist ad, on the other hand, is not even talking about anyone changing their religious affiliation. It just says "there are other people like you". It makes no accusations, and doesn't try to persuade people to change. What it does is get people who don't believe in 'God' to remember that there are plenty of other who feel the same way, even if it may not appear that way.

Now, there are a few people to whom both ads might speak. But the overlap is little, and the message different.

I think the question will be whether the bus system has to show ads even it feels they are inflammatory, because they accuse a religion of behaving badly. I notice that Fox News thinks it has the right to refuse to carry ads: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4379181

[No Elephants]

39. Arab? Have they seen photos of Barack Hussein Obama, Senior?

Have they read about his granddad's name change after his conversion to Islam (due to his poor treatment at the hands of Christians)? And when did the POTUS ever claim to have descended from slaves? He says his wife and daughters did.

BTW, some Africans "owned" slaves, too. So did some Native Americans. Indeed, it's hard to point to a group that never "owned" slaves in its entire history. And?

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Facts are irrelevant,

[jobycom]

50. The two ads aren't in any way similar.

"Don't Believe in God? You are not alone." Where's the attack there? Where's the condemnation or even the mention of another group other than those who do not believe in God?

"Fatwa on your head? Is your family or community threatening you? Leaving Islam? Got questions? Get Answers!" There the attack is very plain. It is meant to reinforce the stereotypes non-Muslims have of Islam as a violent religion. Even the lawsuit admits the ad is targeted at non-Muslims. "Americans have a right to know the truth -- Islam is a religion of intolerance and violence." Need it spelled out more plainly? The ad isn't directed at Muslim Americans, the ad is directed at non-Muslim Americans to reinforce the stereotypes the media feeds them every day.

There's no similarity between the two ads other than that they both have a loose connection to religion. The first couldn't be seen as an attack by anyone other than a handful of hyper-sensitive theists (notice there's no mention of another religion, so I won't narrow it down to Christian or Muslim or any specific type of believer, since the ad doesn't) who believe that the very existence of non-believers is somehow an attack on them. The second directly mischaracterizes a specific religion as violent and intolerant.

That's as plain as I can spell it out. Let's say I ran an ad saying "Worried about what the Bruthas will say? Is your family threatening to pop a cap in your ass for voting against Obama? Call the RNC, we have answers." Would that be an acceptable ad to run on a city bus? Because that's how the anti-Muslim ad reads, with just a different stereotype.

[Skelly]

91. Actually

I sort of like that ad...except lets change the subjects (I do, after all, really LIKE Obama).
"Worried about what the teabaggers say? Is your family threatening to ____________ (the ignorant equivalent to 'pop a cap'...) for voting against ___________ (the local right wing tea party endorsed equivalent). Call the DNC, we have answers"

Perhaps someone more creative than me can fill in the blanks.

[Llewlladdwr]

24. Bravo! Way to put words in my mouth.

I can see that you are indeed learned in the use of the strawman.

So we can agree that public criticism of a religion equals persecution of said faith?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. LOL

[Llewlladdwr]

26. Yeah, this is pretty fun, innit?

:-)

[jobycom]

27. You drive a Dodge, don't you?

c ya.

[Llewlladdwr]

29. LOL. Okay, that was a good one.

But no, I've never been a Mopar Man.

Enjoy your weekend...

[Rage for Order]

41. Oh yes, those poor, oppressed Muslims...

There are only 1.3 billion Muslims worldwide. How will they ever survive against those evil Christians?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world

:eyes:

[jobycom]

47. You'll have to use smaller words ,because I have no idea how that relates to my post. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

56. I think they're trying to say Muslims aren't persecuted anywhere coz globally they're a majority...

Makes absolutely no sense at all, as Muslims are definately a minority in the US and there is very clearly discrimination and persecution of them happening. I recall in the past that poster has used the word 'savages' here at DU to refer to Muslims, so I'm not at all surprised by the attitude they've got in this thread...

[Rage for Order]

100. Muslims make up 30% of the population

But whites only make up 12% of the population, so your meme of "white Christians persecuting brown Muslims" is bogus. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[MellowDem]

43. So you think the ad shouldn't be allowed?

And do you think the ad represents "an overwhelming majority of believers" or another minority group of believers who believe this about Islam? Because you seem to misrepresent the case otherwise.

[BobbyBoring]

18. it would be funny

If it wasn't becoming so common. These people forget (or probably never knew about) the Crusades, The Inquisition, etc. If anyone ever did a tally, I'm pretty sure there is a lot more blood on Christian hands than there is Muslim. Talk about intolerance??

[Arrowhead2k1]

28. Yeah, seriously. Christians are among the most violent two faced religion of them all.

Atleast the Muslims are somewhat honest about their beliefs.

I've yet to see the words "Thou shall not kill", get in the way of a good old fashion invasion of a third world country followed by a shitload of direct and indirect civilian massacres.

It doesn't matter what either books actually preach. Actions speak louder than words.

[Llewlladdwr]

30. I call persecution!

:-)

[GreenStormCloud]

46. That was hundreds of years ago. The ad rejection is now.

The Islamic faith requires an apostate Muslim to be killed.

The following link is from a Muslim site: http://islamqa.com/en/ref/696/apostasy

Praise be to Allaah.

The punishment for apostasy (riddah) is well-known in Islaamic Sharee’ah. The one who leaves Islaam will be asked to repent by the Sharee’ah judge in an Islaamic country; if he does not repent and come back to the true religion, he will be killed as a kaafir and apostate, because of the command of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3017).

It is well-known in Sharee’ah that the punishments (hudood) are not carried out on minors, because they have not yet reached the age of responsibility; but in the case of those who have reached the age of responsibility, the punishment (hadd) applies, without a doubt.

The person who knows the truth and believes in it, then turns his back on it, does not deserve to live. The punishment for apostasy is prescribed for the protection of the religion and as a deterrent to anyone who is thinking of leaving Islaam. There is no doubt that such a serious crime must be met with an equally weighty punishment. If the kuffaar do not give people the freedom to cross a red light, how can we give freedom to people to leave Islaam and disbelieve in Allaah when they want to?

And another Islamic site: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/of_course_apostates_should_be_killed

Of course Apostates Should Be Killed

By

Bassam Zawadi


There seems to be a problem with many "modernist and liberal" Muslims out there who would like to "sugarcoat" the religion of Islam by distorting what it really teaches. There are those that go at length to deny that Islam teaches that apostates must be killed. They either deny the explicit hadith that speak about this or reinterpret it to only refer to those apostates that would fight the Muslims.

This is false. I am not going to spend time in this article trying to prove that Islam does call for the killing of apostates and the rules and conditions behind killing apostates (e.g. the apostate must be interrogated first in order to refute what doubts he has for three days, etc.) for I am assuming that my readers already adhere to and have knowledge of the orthodox position regarding the matter. What I want to speak about in this article is the reason for Islam ordering the killing of apostates.

Before I proceed, let me make it clear that when I speak about apostates that must be killed I am only referring to those apostates who live under an Islamic theocratic state and have openly declared their apostasy. What this means is that no Muslim has a right to go to America or Europe for example and start killing ex-Muslims, for he has no such authority to do so.

People find it difficult to grasp why apostasy is a crime that is so great that it would call for a punishment (i.e. execution) that is more severe than say fornication (i.e. flogging), deliberate and preplanned theft (i.e. cutting of the hand), etc. However, with careful contemplation and a realization of the reality of the issue at hand, the matter should be easy for one to swallow.

Another Islamic site:http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/l5721et1.htm

A Muslim is not free to believe or do what he wishes. He is under Islamic law, which was derived and assimilated from the Qur´an, the example of Muhammad (sunna), the final analogy (qijas) and consensus (idjmaa).

Islam describes Muslims as worshippers and slaves of Allah (ibaad Allah). They have submitted themselves to him and are therefore his possession. The word Islam means, "surrender, devotion and submission".

Whoever falls away from faith in Islam commits -- from an Islamic perspective -- an unforgivable sin. He takes himself away from Allah, his owner -- which is theft -- and weakens the Islamic state, an action branded as revolt or insurrection. He who falls away from Islam must, according to the Sharia, be prosecuted, taken into custody by force, and called on to repent. If necessary, his return is to be "helped" along with torture. He who does not embrace Islam again has, according to the Sharia, forfeited his life and is to be put to death by the state.

I bolded the one sentence.

I am amazed at the people who look to evils of some Christians hundreds of years ago as justification for Islamic violence today.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. So, being opposed to the bigotry of those behind the ads is 'supporting Islamic violence'?

Did you read post 38? See, those behind those bus ads are virulent anti-Muslim bigots. I'd be curious to know whether you support them and their ad...

[GreenStormCloud]

49. I was responding to YOUR post.

You said: These people forget (or probably never knew about) the Crusades, The Inquisition, etc. If anyone ever did a tally, I'm pretty sure there is a lot more blood on Christian hands than there is Muslim. Talk about intolerance??

You are obviously trying to use Christian violence of hundreds of years ago to excuse CURRENT Islamic violence. And I pointed out from Islamic websites that Islam does teach that apostates are to be killed, or tortured into accepting the faith again.

Don't try to defect by talking about somebody else's post.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. No you weren't, and you didn't answer the question I asked you...

I didn't say that at all. I have, however, asked you if you've read the information I posted about the anti-Muslim bigots behind the ad campaign and whether you support them and their ads. I'd still be interested in you answering my question...

[GreenStormCloud]

58. Sorry, I thought you were BobbyBoring, poster of #18.

I will apologize for the error. However, in the post that you responded to, I was specifically addressing his comment in which he tries to used centuries old Christian violence to excuse current Islamic violence.

Going into who was behind the original ad is a distraction from the issue. Islam does call for apostates to be killed, and many of them are.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. That's okay, I've done it before too, but you still haven't answered my question...

I've asked you twice, and I really would like you to answer it. Do you support the group behind those ads and the ads themselves? It's just the group are anti-Muslim bigots, so I'd be hoping no-one at DU would support them...

[GreenStormCloud]

61. I consider that a distraction from the issue itself.

The issue is Islamic violence towards those who try to leave Islam, and I am staying to that issue. I am not familiar with the group, so I won't comment on them. However, is it automatic bigotry to critize Islam?

[Violet_Crumble]

63. No, read the OP. The issue is the ad...

And saying the group behind the ad has nothing to do with it, is like saying the same thing if Stormfront tried to put up an ad about Jews on buses...

I've posted information for you to read in post in this very thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4402018&mesg_id=4402947

How much else do you need to know about them to answer the question I asked about whether you support them and their ad?

Why would you ask that last very strange question? Do you think what Pamela Geller does is merely 'criticism'?

[GreenStormCloud]

65. Do you think killing apostates is morally right? N/T

[Violet_Crumble]

66. Huh? Why are you spitting out such ridiculous questions after refusing to answer my question?

I'm finding that such a totally bizarre and strange question to ask me. Why would you do that?

[GreenStormCloud]

70. Do you refuse to drive on the Interstate highways?

Remember that the Interstate system was based on the autobahn system of Hitler's Germany?

Do you refuse to ride or drive a Volkswagen? Remember that it was designed by the Third Reich.

Do you define your stances by automatically being the opposite of what you percieve another group as being? If FDI said the sky was blue, would you assume it was red?

It is a violation of logic to assume that the messenger is always wrong.

I point out that a Muslim who tries to leave Islam places themselves in mortal danger. Let me reccomend a couple of books for you on the topic. They were written by Nonie Darwish, a lady who was raised in Egypt as a Muslim and married to a Muslim. They are, Cruel and Usual Punishment and Now They Call Me Infidel. She tells her story of growing up Muslim, living as one, and leaving Islam. She is under death sentence by Muslims.

You seem to view any criticism of Islam as bigoted.

[Violet_Crumble]

71. You really have a problem with answering any question yr asked...

I'm finding yr attempts to justify the bigotry of FDI rather revolting. Should we also apply that logic to other bigoted hate groups that focus on other minorities like Jews and gays?

It's a complete lie to claim that Muslims in the US will get killed for leaving the religion. And please don't recommend books by anti-Muslim hatemongers like Darwish. Yoou've let yr mask slip by bringing her up...

No, I don't think any criticism of Islam is bigoted and that's as ridiculous a thing to say as yr earlier bizarre question about me and apostates. I'm an atheist and I dislike all religion, but I also dislike bigotry and hatred of Muslims espoused by the FDI and their ilk. I'm sorry that you don't believe they're bigted at all..

btw, shouldn't you do some book recommendations for that other darling of the RW Islamophobe brigade, Wafa Sultan? ;)

[GreenStormCloud]

73. So anybody who criticizes Islam is a hatemonger?

Darwish lived under Islam, so I think she knows what she is talking about.

Never heard of Wafa Sultan.

You are adamantly defending Islam from any criticism, by calling those who would oppose Islam as bigots.

[Violet_Crumble]

75. Please read the post you just replied to for the answer...

It gets annoying having to repeat myself...

'No, I don't think any criticism of Islam is bigoted and that's as ridiculous a thing to say as yr earlier bizarre question about me and apostates. I'm an atheist and I dislike all religion, but I also dislike bigotry and hatred of Muslims espoused by the FDI and their ilk. I'm sorry that you don't believe they're bigted at all..'

So despite displaying a dislike of Muslims, yr now insisting that if someone's Muslim they must know what they're talking about? That's a pretty selective stance for you to take, and given that if Darwish had been Jewish, she'd have been quite rightly labelled a self-hating Jew, you really need to lose the tight grasp you have on bigots such as herself and look at Muslim feminist groups who work quietly and without a shred of hate or bigotry to try to reform their own religion. If I thought you were truly interested, I'd dig out some links for you...

Given yr attitude in this thread, my initial belief that you were merely not aware of the bigotry of Pamela Geller and her ilk at FDI was a bit wrong. I now believe that you don't think views such as hers are bigoted at all...

[GreenStormCloud]

76. Never heard of "Pamela Geller and her ilk at FDI"

Until this thread, that is.

I strongly critize Islam, and you call me a bigot.

My criticism is of Islam and what it teaches, and of those who follow it closely.

Muslim feminists have not made any notable headway in a system that requires the testamony of four men who witnessed the act to prove rape.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. And after given examples of their bigotry, you refused to say whether you thought it was bigoted...

I don't recall calling you a bigot. I've formed an opinion based on what you've said in this thread, which btw, hasn't been criticising Islam, but appearing to make out that those behind the ads aren't bigoted, but I haven't called you a bigot. I've called Pamela Geller and FDI bigots, which you appear to be taking offense to and making out as though what they do is merely 'strong criticism'...

Yr last sentence makes no sense at all. What does how much headway a group makes an indication of anything? Are you trying to say that Pamela Geller and her ilk do make headway? You should be supporting Muslim feminists and what they do rather than being so dismissive of them...

on edit: Here's an easy way to clarify yr views on bigotry against Muslims as opposed to mere 'strong' criticism of Islam. Can you give one or two examples of things that you would consider to be bigoted against Muslims? (eg RW radio host urging people to bomb a mosque). If you can't think of any or think there's no bigotry against Muslims in the US, or that there is but it's justified, then I think I've got my answer...

Also, for those unfamiliar with Nonie Darwish, here's a quote from her about Muslims. To test it out to see if it's bigoted, try substituting the name of another minority instead of Muslim and see what you think:

'"From a former Moslem, these people are in the US to Islamize America and have a scary agenda. They audaciously buy churches and convert them into mosques!"

"In the show, you stressed how the West should understand Islam. Why is America responsible for understanding every little and big culture and religion around the World, failing which we are branded bigots and racists?"

"Instead, the most vocal Islamic groups in the West are taking a confrontational stance, complaining of discriminatory treatment, taking their cue from liberal civil-rights groups.

The liberal media is only too eager to egg them on."

http://www.noniedarwish.com/pages/745438/index.htm

[GreenStormCloud]

80. You are making a logical error.

Whether or not FDI is bigoted has no bearing on the question of what Islam teaches. FDI could be pro or anti Islam and it would not change Islam. FDI is irrelevant, even if they are the one who paid for the ad. The question is what Islam teaches. You try to duck that. Islam teaches that apostates are to be killed, along with gays, adulterers and lots of others.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. No, I'm not. The motive of those responsible for the ad is important....

You want to go on about Islam (while totally dismissing Muslim feminists who actually do criticise the religion without being bigoted) then go start another thread, but this one's about the ad and the attempt by those behind it to get it put on buses. The bigotry and hatred of that group is very much an issue.

I noticed you evaded giving any example of something you view as bigoted against Islam in order to clarify yr attitudes about bigotry against Muslims. Want to give it a try, or are you more interested in falisely claiming that I called you a bigot in this thread?

I have grave doubts, given yr 'contributions' to threads about Muslims I've now seen in the Religion forum, that you are any authority on what any religion teaches, and as my Muslim friends haven't been taught the crap yr claiming they get taught, I think anyone who takes what you say on face value is making a huge mistake...

[GreenStormCloud]

84. That is why I provided links from Islamic sites on what Islam teaches.

I don't expect anyone to take me personally as a religious authority. I have asked you for links to Islamic sites that claim that apostates are not to be killed.

[Violet_Crumble]

89. I noticed you yet again evaded answering questions...

My Muslim friends have been taught none of the crap yr claiming that Muslims are taught, so I'll file that away with the false claim that I called you a bigot.

I'm very curious as to why you've now avoided trying to clarify yr stance on Muslims by giving examples of things you consider to be bigoted against them. I'll take that as meaning you see anything aimed at them as merely being 'strong criticism'. If that's incorrect, feel free to step in and give even one or two examples...

[Douglas Carpenter]

83. you are using the same tactic used by the Nazis in 1930's Europe and still used by Neonazi

groups today when the quoted the Talmud to expose what they claimed the Jews believe. Of course, their quotes were very selective and completely ignore that fact that the vast majority of modern Jewish people did not believe what propagandist who were employing the same tactics you are now employing against the Muslim people claimed they believed.

Anti-Semitic sites still use your tactic and quote and references extreme Jewish sources the same way you are referencing "Islamic sources."

Clearly, neither the vast majority of Jews or the vast majority of Muslims living in America believe at all the way various bigots claim they believe -

[GreenStormCloud]

85. Post links to Islamic sites that claims that apostates are not to be killed.

Yes, I am hostile to the Islamic religion. So what? Is it somewhere written that a progressive must be careful not to critize Islam? Other religions come in for lots of bashing here on DU, but if someone criticizes Islam in the slightest they get slammed.

[Violet_Crumble]

92. Douglas is right. There's similarities between yr tactics and those of antisemites...

You really need to go back and reread what he said. See, what you've done in this thread isn't some mere criticism of Islam - you've insisted that the issue of the bigotry of the people behind the ad isn't an issue, you've recommended reading material from a RW Muslim-hating woman who claims American Muslims are trying to Islamicise the US, and refused to acknowledge that there's such a thing as bigotry against Muslims in the US. Antisemites also try to claim that they're merely criticising Judaism (or Israel as I saw from the ones that appeared at times in the I/P forum) and that anyone objecting to their bigotry was slamming them for the slightest criticism of Judaism etc...

[GreenStormCloud]

94. Might I suggest you review the rules of Logic?

Here, I will post a link: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#genetic

Genetic Fallacy (Fallacy of Origins, Fallacy of Virtue):
If an argument or arguer has some particular origin, the argument must be right (or wrong). The idea is that things from that origin, or that social class, have virtue or lack virtue. (Being poor or being rich may be held out as being virtuous.) Therefore, the actual details of the argument can be overlooked, since correctness can be decided without any need to listen or think.

In this case you are claiming that since the ad comes from a source that you disapprove of, then the ad is wrong because that source said it.

You have offered no links to any Islamic sites that counter the links that I have listed regarding the teaching of Islam with regard to apostates.

In her books, Nonie Darwish is against the way women are treated under Saria law. She is for the equal treatment of women. Last time I checked, equality of the sexes was a progressive stance, yet you claim it to be an RW stance. Her books take no stance on economic systems, which is the major RW/LW divide. She does seem to be against authoritarian governments, which is a progressive value.

She does see the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism in any country as a threat to that country. So do I. Do you feel that Islamic Fundamentalism is harmless? In any country, including America, a Muslim who speaks out against Islamic Fundamentalism does so at risk of physical injury or death.

I do not understand why some progressives feel the need to shield Islam from criticism when it is the most unprogressive major religion on Earth.

[muriel_volestrangler]

101. Try this, and the various sites it links to:

The Qur’an does not specify any worldly punishment or retribution solely for apostasy. Similarly, there is no clear prophetic judgment on apostasy, nor examples that such punishment was meted out (during the time of the Prophet or in the period of the Righteous Caliphate) to someone solely for abandoning Islam as a creed, in contrast with apostasy-cum-treason, involving taking up arms against the Muslim community or the state.
...
We the undersigned Muslims from diverse backgrounds affirm: The freedom of faith and the freedom of changing one’s faith. In light of the Qur’anic guidance and the Prophetic legacy, the principle of freedom of faith does not lend itself to impose in this world any punishment or retribution solely for apostasy; thus there ought not to be any punishment in the name of Islam or fatwa calling for the same.

In addition, we call upon:

our esteemed scholars (ulama) and jurists (fuqaha), to address this inconsistency between the Islamic principle of freedom of faith and the position mandating punishment for apostasy, and to bring our legacy of Islamic jurisprudence and general Islamic discourse up-to-date for the times with reference to indisputable and categorical Islamic principles.

our fellow Muslims, to be informed of Islam’s position on apostasy and to uphold the principle of choice so that we may exercise tolerance towards those who have left the “straight path” and deal with their subsequent views and actions (even when they are against Islam) within the conext of human rights and civil liberties allowed by law.

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/apostasy_and_freedom_of_faith_in_islam/0016063

[GreenStormCloud]

93. GODWIN FAIL! N/T

[Douglas Carpenter]

97. you honestly don't see the extreme danger in what you are doing and are you seriously denying

that among fundamentalist Protestant Christians (such as the ones promoting this add) - who advocate a global war on the Islamic world? In fact among American fundamentalist Protestant groups this agenda is completely mainstream. And in case you have not noticed, it is America and the West who are bombing, invading and occupying Muslim countries - not the other way around.

Most, but by no means all, American fundamentalist Christians believe that a climactic "Battle of Armageddon" - a third world war - MUST be fought against the Arab and Islamic world in order to herald in the second coming of Christ. And they make no bones about advocating policies that will help bring this about. Take a look at the bestseller list on Amazon and you will see just how mainstream this idea really is.

These are people with real political power who now hold dominating influence inside today's Republican Party. Just imagine the consequences of these people caring out their agenda.

These adds are directed for the purpose of creating hostility against American Muslims. - The vast overwhelming majority of whom are law abiding and loyal American citizens who certainly are not killing apostates or advocating any such thing or practicing or advocating honor killing. Most are decent, hardworking Americans just living very ordinary lives.

These adds are not just promoting hostility against extreme Muslims - They are promoting fear and hostility against ordinary American Muslims like the neighbors next door or the shopkeeper down the street.

The Nazis of Europe rarely publicly advocated genocide against the Jewish people. They created a culture where ordinary people thought that there had to be a solution to the "Jewish problem" - which then culminated in the final solution.

[GreenStormCloud]

98. So to defend Islam you feel you must attack some Christians?

Yes, I am extremely critical of Islam. Being a progressive does not require me to defend Islam.

[Douglas Carpenter]

102. the vast majority of ordinary Christians just like the vast majority of ordinary Muslims or Jews are

fine decent people who are not persecuting or oppressing anyone. They are certainly not killing apostates or anyone else or advocating such.

If the standard is what a religion in theory believes or what can be found in ancient text as opposed to what the vast majority actually practice, then all major religions are in trouble. The Bible, the Koran and the Talmud all have some very disturbing material.

But the fact remains, fundamentalist Christians in America hold real political power in America and many, probably most of their leaders do advocate a violent apocalyptic world war against the Arab and Islamic world. This is not simply a theoretical positions. This is a positions held by most (but not all) hardline American fundamentalist Protestant Christians leaders as a necessity to prepare for the second coming of Christ. These are people who now largely dominate the current Republican Party.

There is absolutely no plausible scenario whatsoever in which fundamentalist Muslims could gain ANY political power in America. Even the vast majority of American Muslims overwhelmingly reject their message. It is however, highly plausible that hardline fundamentalist Protestants leaders could dominate the next political party that comes to power in America. And it is highly plausible that they could attempt to drive America into catastrophic war against the Arab and Islamic world with catastrophic consequences for the whole world.

This is not about defending Islam or attacking Christians. I am a Christian. It is about defending sanity and stopping madmen of whatever faith or no faith from provoking a confrontation and driving the whole world over they abyss.

[fascisthunter]

105. bad, bad dodge

[Douglas Carpenter]

53. and here is some info from some Islamic websites also

We keep hearing people say that Muslim leaders should speak up and denounce extremism if they want people to know the other side - short of standing on their heads and saying "Simon says" - I really don't know what more they can do to get their message across

.

here are just four fairly recent ones, all recently posted right here on DU - but frankly, a simple google search will reveal countless cases going back years where Muslim leaders have condemned acts of terror and extremism of all kinds:

Top Muslim clerics issue Fatwa denouncing terror attacks on Canada and U.S

CALGARY – Top Imams affiliated with the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada have issued a fatwa calling those terrorists who attack the United States and Canada “evil.”

The Fatwa is the most important condemnation of terrorists who try to hurt people living in Canada. Extremists have been told that any attack on the U.S. or on Canada will be construed as an attack on 10 million Muslims who live in these two countries.

“This is the first Fatwa by the Muslim clergy declaring attacks on Canada and the United States as attack on Muslims. Following is the text of the Fatwa. A Fatwa is a religious edict.

“We, the undersigned Imams, are issuing the following Fatwa in order to guide the Muslims of North America regarding the attacks on Canada and the United States by the terrorists and the extremists,” said the declaration:

““In fact, the constitutions of the United States and Canada are very close to the Islamic guiding principles of human rights and freedom. There is no conflict between the Islamic values of freedom and justice and the Canadian /US values of freedom and justice.”
“Therefore, any attack on Canada and the United States is an attack on the freedom of Canadian and American Muslims. Any attack on Canada and the United States is an attack on thousands of mosques across North America. It is a duty of every Canadian and American Muslim to safeguard Canada and the USA.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=4217266

U.S. Muslims Condemn Attack at Fort Hood

Posted 11/5/2009 6:15:00 PM
http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=26126

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 11/5/09) - A prominent national Muslim civil rights and advocacy group tonight condemned an attack on Fort Hood military base in Texas that left at least 12 people dead.

In a statement, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said:

“We condemn this cowardly attack in the strongest terms possible and ask that the perpetrators be punished to the full extent of the law. No religious or political ideology could ever justify or excuse such wanton and indiscriminate violence. The attack was particularly heinous in that it targeted the all-volunteer army that protects our nation. American Muslims stand with our fellow citizens in offering both prayers for the victims and sincere condolences to the families of those killed or injured.”

Along with innumerable condemnations of terror, CAIR has in the past launched an online anti-terror petition drive called “Not in the Name of Islam,” initiated a television public service announcement (PSA) campaign against religious extremism and coordinated a “fatwa,” or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism.

SEE: CAIR’s Anti-Terrorism Campaigns

link: http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx

Islamic states condemn attack on Danish cartoonist

January 4, 2010 7:56 a.m. EST

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/04/denmark.cartoonist/

(CNN) -- The attack on a Danish political cartoonist "runs totally against the teachings and values of Islam," the umbrella organization representing Muslim countries has said.

Muslims on the Mall

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2009/09/the_national_mall_is_for_all.html?hpid=talkbox1

The Star-Ledger reported last week that a mosque in Elizabeth, New Jersey, Dar-ul-Islam, will spearhead a national prayer gathering for September 25 in Washington, D.C., "that organizers are billing as the first event of its kind--organized prayer for tens of thousands of Muslims outside the U.S. Capitol building."

The paper quoted Hassen Abdellah, president of Dar-ul-Islam and an event organizer: "Most of the time, when Muslims go to Washington, D.C., they go there to protest some type of event...This is not a protest. Never has the Islamic community prayed on Capitol Hill for the soul of America. We're Americans. We need to change the face of Islam so people don't feel every Muslim believes America is 'the great Satan,' because we love America. "

The Star-Ledger reports that "A permit from the Capitol Hill police, granted July 28, allows access to the area by the West Front of the Capitol building from 4 a.m. to 7 p.m. on Sept. 25, but the main gathering will occur at 1 p.m., for the Friday prayer service. Abdellah said he expects 50,000 people to attend, from mosques around the country, though non-Muslims are welcome, too."

Abdellah stated the idea germinated after President Obama's inaugural speech, and was reinforced by this summer's Cairo address: "For the first time in my lifetime," Abdellah said, "I heard someone of his stature speaking about Islam and Muslims not in an adversarial sense, but in the sense of being welcome and acknowledging we are integral citizens in the society -- that we're gainfully employed, we're educated."

below are a list of statements assembled by CAIR - the largest and most influential Muslim organization in North America

for links to complete statements: http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx

Fatwa Against Terrorism

CAIR backs Fatwa against Terrorism. English, Arabic, Urdu radio anti-terror PSAs released (Washington, D.C., 7/28/05) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today offered its support for a fatwa, or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism issued by the Fiqh Council of North America (FCNA) and endorsed by more than 120 U.S. Muslim groups, leaders and institutions.


Not in the Name of Islam Petition

The “Not in the Name of Islam” petition states: “We, the undersigned Muslims, wish to state clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but are also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent. No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people, and no act of terror will ever serve the cause of Islam. We repudiate and dissociate ourselves from any Muslim group or individual who commits such brutal and un-Islamic acts. We refuse to allow our faith to be held hostage by the criminal actions of a tiny minority acting outside the teachings of both the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.



Persistent and Consistent Condemnation of Terrorism

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has a clear record of consistently and persistently condemning terrorism. Yet American Muslim groups like CAIR get repeatedly asked the question why have Muslims not spoken out against terrorism? The fact is they have, but who is listening? This prompted one media commentator to ask, “Are Muslims condemning terror to the deaf?”



CAIR Statements on the Events of September 11

"We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."



CAIR: Video Shows Bin Laden's Complicity in 9-11 Attacks

(Washington, DC, 12/13/2001) The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Washington-based Islamic advocacy group, today offered its reaction to the videotape of Osama bin Laden released by the Pentagon.

CAIR stated: For anyone who was not convinced of Osama bin Laden's complicity in the events of September 11, the content of this videotape should remove all doubt. Bin Laden clearly spoke as someone who had foreknowledge of the attacks.



CAIR Condemnation of Suicide Bombing

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 3/28/2002) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Washington-based Islamic advocacy group, today condemned a bomb attack on a Passover celebration in the Middle East that left 20 people dead and more than 100 wounded.

In a statement, CAIR said: "We condemn this attack and all other attacks on innocent civilians. Illegitimate and counterproductive tactics must not be used in the legitimate struggle to end Israel's brutal occupation.



CAIR Full Page Advertisement in Washington Post on September 16, 2001

"We at the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), along with the entire American Muslim community are deeply saddened by the massive loss of life resulting from the tragic events of September 11. American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all American in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."



Canadian Muslim Scholars Reject "Misguided" Calls For Jihad

(OTTAWA, CANADA) - The Canadian office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR CAN) and the Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Association (CMCLA) today denounced a series of recent statements made by Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda network that state that Muslims should wage a "jihad" against Americans.



Toledo Muslims Condemn Attack on US, Ask Media to Excercise Restraint

TOLEDO, OH-- The United Muslim Association of Toledo, expresses its deepest regret at the death of our fellow citizens around the United States. The United Muslim Association condemns these acts of senseless violence. As American Muslims we are saddened by this loss of life. We offer our condolences to the families of the victims and pray for the recovery of those injured in the explosion. We call for a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances that led to this tragedy and full disclosure of the findings.



Rallying to Make a Difference Hundreds of Families and Community Leaders

"I'm here because I think I can try to make a difference – to inform the public about what's going on," he said.

Imad joined hundreds of other families and community leaders, Muslim and non-Muslim, on Saturday for a rally against terrorism sponsored by the Council on American-Islamic Relations-DFW.

He stood with his siblings and cousins holding banners and American flags.



American Muslim Response to the September Attacks

We, the undersigned Muslim organizations, support the President and Congress of the U.S. in the struggle against terrorism. Holding to the ideals of both our religion and our country, we condemn all forms of terrorism, and confirm the need for perpetrators of any such acts of violence to be brought to justice, including those who carried out the attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001.



ISNA Joins AMPCC in Condemning Terrorist Attacks

(Plainfield, IN – 9/11/2001) – The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), along with other Muslim organizations throughout North America, today condemned the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and offered condolences to the families of those who were killed or injured.

The AMPCC statement read in part: "American Muslims utterly condemn what are vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."



ICNA Declares Friday, September 14, 2001, a Day of Mourning and Prayers

The Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) is extremely horrified and saddened by the tragedy in New York and Washington D.C.

Our hearts and prayers are with the families of the victims of this horrible and despicable crime. We condemn this heinous act and call upon our political leaders and the media to act responsibly, and not generalize when speculating about the perpetrators.



Scholars of Islam Speak Out Against Terrorism; Clarify Position of Islam

Dozens of scholars of Islam issued a statement today, condemning the violent attacks of September 11th.

"We are grief-stricken at these horrifying events," they wrote; "the murder of innocents can never be justified and must not be tolerated."

In a lengthy statement, professors from major colleges and universities throughout the country expressed their compassion for grieving family members while also decrying the increase in violence against American Muslims this past week. "Anger and frustration are completely understandable and shared by us all," they wrote "yet that anger must not be directed at individuals utterly innocent of these terrible crimes.

U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks

CHICAGO, Sept 12 (IslamOnline) - Muslim scholars in North America unanimously condemned the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon and expressed their deep sorrow and sympathy for those Americans who were killed and injured.

The Detroit-based Shari'a Scholars Association of North America (SSANA) strongly condemned the attack and said that there is no cause that justifies "this type of an immoral and inhumane act that has affected so many innocent American lives."


Call for Holy War Condemned by Florida Muslim Cleric

Osama bin Laden and his call for a jihad, or holy war, against the United States were denounced in a scathing address on Friday by the leader of one of Florida's largest mosques.

"There are some who tarnish Islam, who do terror in the name of Islam," said Maulana Shafayat Mohamed, head of Darul Uloom Institute in Pembroke Pines. "They confuse jihad with their own problems. We must educate them about Islam, so they will not corrupt it."



Experts Say bin Laden Is Distorting Islamic Law

Leading American scholars and practitioners of Islam said yesterday that Osama bin Laden had twisted and debased Muslim theology in a videotaped statement in which he called on "every Muslim" to "rush to make his religion victorious" by emulating those who attacked the United States on Sept. 11.

Ingrid Mattson, a professor of Islamic studies and Muslim-Christian relations at Hartford Seminary in Hartford, said there was no basis in Islamic law or sacred text for Mr. bin Laden's remarks.



American Muslim Scholar Declares: Terrorists are Mass Murderers, not Martyrs

Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise.

But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom?

We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.''



Muslim Religious Figures Condemn Terrorism

* "Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."

Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001)

*The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)."



Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders

Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:


Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi

The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people.


Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi Condemns Attacks Against Civilians: Forbidden in Islam

DOHA, Qatar, Sept 13 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - Renowned Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi denounced the attacks against civilians in the U.S. Tuesday and encouraged Muslims to donate blood to the victims of the attack.

In response to the bloody attack against civilians in the U.S., Sheikh Yusuf issued a statement Wednesday saying that:

Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.

DUBAI, Sept 12 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - The Muslim world expressed condemnation Wednesday towards the attacks that occurred Tuesday in the United States, news agencies reported.

The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) grouping 57 Muslim states condemned Wednesday the previous day's attacks on the United States, Agence France-Presse (AFP) reported.



Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab and Muslim world

For many of us, one of the most disturbing images of these past painful weeks has been that of the celebration of a few Palestinian youths after the tragedy.

This image has been played over and over again on CNN, thus reinforcing the myth that somehow the whole of the Arab and Muslim world rejoices at our pain.



Bin Laden's violence is a heresy against Islam

IN what sense were the World Trade Centre bombers members of Islam? This question has been sidelined by many Western analysts impatient with the niceties of theology; but it may be the key to understanding the recent attacks, and assessing the long-term prospects for peace in the Muslim world.


Koran a Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say

Osama bin Laden, who is widely assumed to be the force behind the September 11 hijackings in the United States, cites the Koran, Islam's most holy book, as the inspiration for terrorist attacks. But Muslim scholars around the world who are reviled by such actions explain that the Koran preaches peace.

http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx

Here is a list of official Fatwas condenming terrorism, violence against civilians and extremism

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/0012209


of course there are several other denunciations other than formal Islamic Fatwas

Statements by Organizations -

several links:
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_terrorism_part_ii_statements_by_organizatio/0012210

Statements and Articles by Individuals several links

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_iii_statements_articles/0012211
(see also power point presentations) - http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/powerpoint_presentations/

A Few Quotes A-K

(actually several)
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_a_few_quotes/0012273

A few Quotes L-Z (actually, a LOT more than a few

)
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_a_few_quotes_l_z/0014337

The Muslim Majority Who Don’t Get Publicity

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorim_part_v_the_muslim_majority_who/0012322
and a power point presentation:

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/powerpoint_presentations/

Muslims and Arabs in the U.S. Military speak out:

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslims_in_the_military/0013612

Selective Hearing of Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - many, many links:

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/selective_hearing_of_muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism/0012212

Sunni Shia Unity Resource -

collection of articles
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/shia_sunni/003107

Muslim Voices Promoting Islamic Non Violent Solutions - several sources

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/promoting_islamic_non_violent_solutions/0015593

[GreenStormCloud]

57. What do they say about those who leave Islam? That was the question.

You are deflecting to other issues with regard to Islam. The ad was about Muslims being killed for leaving Islam. Find some Muslim sites on that specific topic.

[Jefferson23]

62. You want to accept the word of this group who placed the ad??

Why not do your own research.

[GreenStormCloud]

64. I did. I posted the links to Islamic websites.

Those websites explained why apostates were to be tortured until they came back to Islam, or killed if they didn't.

Are you aware that being a gay gets a death sentence in most of the Islamic controlled countries?

Why do you consider it bigotry to critize Islam?

[Violet_Crumble]

67. And you refuse to read the information I posted about the group who placed the ad...

Read it and have a think about how right now yr coming across as appearing to support bigoted and hateful groups such as FDI. I'm finding yr refusal to comment on their bigotry rather telling. It's exactly like someone ignoring the bigotry of anti-semitic Holocaust deniers and insisting that the issue is WWII, not the group who's talking about it...

[GreenStormCloud]

68. I am sticking to the point.

You want to talk about the group that placed the ad. I want to point out that Islam does require that apostates be killed. You don't like that being pointed out.

Holocaust deniers can be engaged with information that proves that the holocaust actually happened, and they are exposed as being liars.

If the ad offends you, attempt to prove that the ad itself is a lie. Is a person who leaves Islam as safe as a Christian who decides to convert to Islam?

[Violet_Crumble]

69. No, the point IS the ad and the group who placed it...

Holocaust deniers would do exactly what yr doing and insist that the issue is WWII, not whether or not they're liars. Also, some of what they claim is true, as they take truth and twist it to make their points, in a very similar way to the way anti-Muslim bigots take truths and distort and twist things to form their 'arguments'..

Muslims in the US aren't killed for leaving the religion, so the ad is a lie, and those who blindly support it and ignore the bigotry of the motives of the group behind it are just as bad...

You really don't like it being pointed out that the group behind the ad are racists and bigots. I find it sad that attitudes such as the ones you hold where hatred and bigotry is overlooked if it's aimed at Muslims are attitudes that are seen far too often at DU...

[GreenStormCloud]

72. "Honor Killing" Comes To America

I assume you will accept that a link to Huffington Post is not to an RW source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/irshad-manji/honor-killings-come-to-am_b_111549.html
"Honor Killing" Comes To America

I don't know the political leaning of this site: http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=35988
I would hope that you remember the story.

Muslim women overseas have long had to deal with the threat of honor killings, but several incidents in recent years show that the threat has come to American soil.

A 17-year old girl named Fathima Rifqa Bary is currently engaged in a custody battle after fleeing her father in Ohio, who she claimed threatened to kill her for converting to Christianity


Here is more from the Boston Globehttp://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/08/10/honor_killing_comes_to_the_us/


Why is it automatically consider bigotry to criticize Islam. Van Gogh was recently killed by Muslims for making a film that critized Islam. He definately wasn't RW.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. You and the FDI are trying to make out this is a regular occurance...

You've pointed to less than a handful of examples of a father killing his daughter because she refused to do an arranged marriage, and another where a claim is made that a father threatened to kill a daughter. There's examples of Christians doing really nasty things. Should we also use them to criticise the entire religion? Or is that only allowed when it comes to Muslims?

Why is it automatically consider bigotry to criticize Islam.

No-one in this thread automatically considers criticism of Islam to be bigotry, so why keep on asking the same ridiculous 'question' that's already been answered. There's a huge difference between criticism and what the FDI and their supporters do, which is every bit as ugly and hateful as when it's aimed at other groups....

[GreenStormCloud]

77. Your post #69

Muslims in the US aren't killed for leaving the religion

So I posted some counter-examples. It does happen. And I posted Islamic sites that support killing apostates. That IS part of what Islam teaches. You can try to duck it all you want to, but that is part of the religion. And I am not being a bigot by pointing out what a particular religious system teaches.

Try to find some links to Islamic sites that specifically counter them.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. And? Do you actually have any point to make?

See, I noticed you totally ignored me pointing out that the same thing could be done about Christianity because a few Christians do really nasty things.

Yr very defensive in claiming yr not a bigot, I've noticed, even to the point of falsely accusing others of calling you one.

I'm a bit disturbed at the way you try to promote yrself as having any great knowledge of what any religion teaches. I've got Muslim friends and they do NOT get taught the crap yr claiming they get taught...

on edit: seeing you do see yrself as having some sort of religious knowledge, could you tell me how I leave Christianity? Is there some form I fill out? It's just that yr acting as though many Muslims aren't secular people like myself who don't do the religious thing at all but are still technically members of the religion they were born into.

[GreenStormCloud]

82. But Christianity does not teach that apostates should be killed.

Try to find a Christian web site that teaches it. I easily found several Islamic websites that do teach exactly that.

To leave any religion, you simply quit practicing it. People actions are rarely taking in a vacuum, but as part of a community of friends, neighbors, and family. Islam teaches that the circle of those around you are supposed to be responsible to bring you back to Islam, by force if need be. Did you notice the one Islamic website that approved of torturing an apostate into rejoining Islam? Christians are supposed to simply pray and love the apostate back. Violence against an apostate is forbidden, as is violence in general - except self defense.

BTW - Ask your female Muslim friends what they must do to gain Paradise. Second question is: What is the reward for a Muslim woman in Paradise?
Are you aware that Mohammad claimed that Hell is almost completely populated by women? Islam is the too misogynist religion I have ever read about.

For men, if you die as a jihad warrior, you automatically go to Paradise and get 72 virgins that regenerate their virginity as soon as they are deflowered, and the man gets a permanent erection.

[Violet_Crumble]

90. I wasn't arguing that it did. What I said was that there's Christians who do nasty things...

Shall we do what you do when it comes to Muslims and take what a few Christians do and try to make out it's a commonplace everyday thing in Christianity?

I'm not the slightest bit interested in yr rather disturbing and ignorant rantings about Muslims. You've really got some major issues...

[GreenStormCloud]

95. There are certainly Christians who do bad things.

However, you will be hard pressed to find Christian websites that advocate those bad things. But with Islam it is quite easy to find Islamic web sites that advocate killing apostates.

Ignorant? I have provided links from Islamic sites for the claims I have made. You have provided no links with respect to Islam.

[Jefferson23]

87. Do you honestly believe those website give you the understanding

of Islam? Would you appreciate someone deciding if your religion was advocating violence based on what you have posted here?

One of your sources is from the perspective of a Christian. "Investigate Islam from a Christian point of view!"

I think you need to think about literal translations and apply that to every word ever written for any religion before you
judge the religion of Islam and see if you like it.

You might want to inform yourself about how gays are treated around the world, that might give you a more clear measure of how
difficult the struggle has been. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory

We still don't have gays serving openly in the military, I don't have to remind you of the percentage of Americans and how they
perceive gays and marriage, right?

Check out the year, for the USA, Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003)



I do believe I have already answered your last question.

[GreenStormCloud]

96. In America, Gays are not executed by the government for being gay.

There is a huge difference between being denied full rights and being executed for existing. Yes, gays have a long way to go still, but to claim that their status in America is identical to their status in Islamic countries is a BB to cannonball comparison.

Do you claim that Islam does not advocate killing apostates? Please provide a link from an Islamic site to back up that claim.

[Jefferson23]

99. Oh gee, no kidding, there are distinctions. And I see you are going to

ignore the difference between a literal translation vs what the vast majority practice.

I have my doubts you looked at the countries that give prison sentences for being gay, but will focus on Islam. And no one claims
their status is identical, so don't go there. What you fail to recognize is the progression is different in other cultures, we have no history
so pure that we can judge others as less than us. We can hope to lead, but we fail very often too. We torture, and call it "security measures".


I did not make the claim, so again, decease the rhetoric. Your sources haven't proven what you seem determined to do,
which is believe the worst of millions and millions of people based on an internet search on the subject.

[Jefferson23]

60. Excellent, hopefully some here will read it through, and pass it on to their friends.

[Kurska]

103. Speech isn't oppressive. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

38. For those of you acting as though this is some innocent ad, here's the site for the bigots behind it

http://freedomdefense.typepad.com/

Atlas Shrugs and Jihad Watch are virulent anti-Muslim websites. Pamela Geller from Atlas Shrugs runs the Freedom Defense Initiative, as well as another group called Stop Islamization of America. She's a Birther, denies any genocide happened in Bosnia, and for anyone still clinging to a belief that FDI is something atheists should be embracing, here's what their leader has to say about Obama:

'The O-man, Barack Hussein Obama, is an eloquently tailored empty suit. No résumé, no accomplishments, no experience, no original ideas, no understanding of how the economy works, no understanding of how the world works, no balls, nothing but abstract empty rhetoric devoid of real substance.

He has no real identity. He is half-white, which he rejects. The rest of him is mostly Arab, which he hides but is disclosed by his non-African Arabic surname and his Arabic first and middle names as a way to triply proclaim his Arabic parentage to people in Kenya. Only a small part of him is African Black from his Luo grandmother, which he pretends he is exclusively.

What he isn't, not a genetic drop of, is "African-American," the descendant of enslaved Africans brought to America chained in slave ships. He hasn't a single ancestor who was a slave. Instead, his Arab ancestors were slave owners. Slave-trading was the main Arab business in East Africa for centuries until the British ended it.

Let that sink in: Obambi is not the descendant of slaves, he is the descendant of slave owners.'

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/06/0-obama.html

[No Elephants]

40. Arab? Have they seen photos of Barack Hussein Obama, Sr? Have

they read about the name change of the POTUS's granddad, after his granddad converted to Islam (due to his poor treatment at the hands of Christians)? BTW, what's wrong with being Arab, anyway? Did we go all medieval on Scottish-Americans after McVeigh?

And when did the POTUS ever claim to have descended from slaves? He says his wife and daughters did.

BTW, some Africans "owned" slaves, too. So did some Native Americans. So did some former slaves. Indeed, it's hard to point to a group that never "owned" slaves in its entire history. And?

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Facts are soooo irrelevant to racists.

[MisterP]

44. there's always a wheedling kind of innocence to 00s Islam"ism"ophobia

"it's just for 'those' Muslims in an abusive religious relationship!" "it's just a matter of defending free speech!" (after the Jyllands Posten refuses to do a series on Jesus and has Muhammad as a terrorist...) "I don't hate Muslims, just those who want to impose their vile Otherness onto us by dressing in an insufficiently Western manner" "the Muslims never had an Enlightenment, so they can't help that they're all monsters on par with Rwanda's leaders" "I don't hate Muslims, just 'Islamists,' which I define as I like and assume are much more threatening than the Christian Democrats across the planet"

[Kurska]

104. Just keep ALL RELIGIOUS ADVERTISEMENTS OF ANY KIND OFF BUSES.

There, everyone should be happy with that.

[fascisthunter]

106. bigots spreading more Islamaphobia....

we need to get a lid on all the extremists, like the ones behind this ad. ALl they do is ad more feul and hatred to an already difficult issue.