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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 11:35 AM
Original message
Major archaeological find at site of Civil War prison
Source: CNN

Atlanta, Georgia (CNN) -- The discovery of the exact location of a stockade and dozens of personal artifacts belonging to its Union prisoners is one of the biggest archaeological Civil War finds in decades, federal and Georgia officials said Monday.

Outside of scholars and Civil War buffs, few people have heard of the Confederacy's Camp Lawton, which replaced the infamous and overcrowded Andersonville prison in fall 1864.

For nearly 150 years, its exact location was not known, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the Georgia Department of Natural Resources and Georgia Southern University said. Georgia Southern students earlier this year began their search for evidence of the wall timbers and interior buildings.

"Archaeologists call it one of the most significant Civil War discoveries in decades," a joint statement read.

Read more: http://cnn.com/2010/US/08/14/georgia.civil.war.camp
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Was GW Bush's great grandpa the prison commandant?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Naw, he was the one that pushed prisoners as they
squatted over the slit trench.
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Oldtimeralso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. No, He died there!
Fell out of a guard tower.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Wasn't grandpa Bush from
Connecticutt?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. I just looked at a bunch of images of Andersonville. Horrible.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Reminds me of how in this country people were brutally killing each other
while in Europe at the same time, important fundamental scientific discoveries were being made on a daily basis.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Not really an honest way to look at it.
1861 to 1865, the U.S. Civil War was being fought.

European wars happening around the same time:

Italian Revolution, Italy-Austria, 1848-1849
Crimean War, Britain, France, Russia, Sardinia, the Ottoman Empire, 1854-1856
Second Opium War, Britain & China, 1856-1860
Indian Mutiny, Britain & India, 1857
Second Italian War for Independence, 1859-1860
War for Italian Unification (Civil War) 1860-1865
French-Mexican War, 1863-1867
Austro-Prussian War, 1866
Third Italian War for Independence 1866
Third Carlist War, Spain (Civil), 1872-1876
Franco-Prussian War, 1870-1871
Russi-Turkic War, 1877-1878

I've left quite a few smaller ones out too. To claim that Europe was "peaceful" is to completely ignore history.

The second half of the 19'th century was extremely brutal worldwide.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The Europeans thought so highly of the trench warfare at the siege of Petersburg...
...they did the same thing again fifty years later!
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oldironside Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. And with even more impressive results.
Just walk around any small town in France, the UK or Germany and you will come across a memorial with dozens of names. No wonder German historians call it Die Urkatastrophe des 20. Jahrhunderts (the original catastrophe of the 20th century).

Here's a link to the war memorial in my home town - a town which now has a population of about 16,000, so count the names and you can imagine what a devastating blow it was to the town and the country at that time.

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/museum/curtis-museum/alton-history/lest-we-forget.htm

Not to diminish the suffering of those who fought in the US Civil War, though. Industrialised war will always be hell.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Not quite, Petersburg were a defense by a weaker army against a stronger one
Edited on Mon Aug-16-10 03:49 PM by happyslug
At Petersburg, the trenches were built by the South to keep the larger Northern Army out of Richmond and its railhead at Petersburg. Once any point of that trench system was breeched, the entire trench system collapsed. Thus leading to the rapid withdraw of Lee's army from Richmond and his surrender at Appomattox courthouse, 90 miles away a week later and 90 miles away.

The problem of WWI, was it was NOT the weaker side using Trenches to keep the Stronger side out, but the Stronger side deciding any attack was NOT worth the effort given they had better places to send troops and win more. Thus Germany (The strongest country in 1914) preferred to send its troops to Romania, the Near East and Russia rather then against the French Trenches. The French Trenches were designed to keep the Germans out, but rarely called to perform that duty (One of the exception is The Battle of Verdun).

While the Germans decided NOT to attack, the British and French decided they had to attack for the Germans were not. Thus you hear of British and French Offensives, and those offensives being "successful" but the territory taken being retaken by the Germans on a counter attack. The reason for this was simple, the stronger side, the Germans, could match anything thrown against it till 1918 (when America Entered the war providing Fresh Troops which the Western Allies needed, at a time when Germany had no fresh troops to send into combat).

In fact the German 1918 Spring Offensive saw the ending of the stalemate of the previous four years and a return to the war of movement of August 1914. The Germans were only defeated by the introduction of American Troops, and the exhaustion of Germany at that stage of WWI (Which may have been affected by the 1918 Spanish flu, the deadliest flu in history and it hit the Germany Army as it started the 1918 Offensive).

Other incidents of "Trench Warfare" since 1918 follows similar lines of 1914-1918, the stronger side decided it was NOT worthwhile to attack. For example, in Korea, the North Koreans almost took all of Korea, then the US launched its attacks and drove them to the Red Chinese Border. At that point the Red Chinese Intervened and drove US Forces South of Seoul. At that point the US Pushed back north, re-taking Seoul and then deciding to draw a line at roughly the 39th Parallel (the Border was adjusted to make it more defend able). The reason for this was any push further north meant facing more and more Chinese Forces. As you went North sooner or later you ended up in Manchuria, which would require a huge input of men and material to take from China and to hold. The Russian were just licking their chops at the US pulling troops out of Europe to fight and die in Northern China. In the words of General Bradly "The Wrong War, with the Wrong Enemy at the Wrong Time".

To avoid the "The Wrong War, with the Wrong Enemy at the Wrong Time", the US decided to draw the line at the 39th parallel. A trench warfare situation came into being, because the stronger side, the US, saw no advantages to taking the Offensive. This continued till Stalin died, when do to his death and the in fighting in the Kremlin, the main focus of the Kremlin was elsewhere (i.e. the Kremlin itself). This permitted the Red Chinese and North Koreans to agree to end the bloodshed which both sides had come to see as useless.

My point is the Trench Warfare of Petersburg, was a different type of Trench Warfare then WWI or Korea. The later two were places were the stronger side decided it was better to use its resources elsewhere, thus the weaker side was rarely attacked and when the weaker side attack any advantage was quickly undone. In Petersburg all the North was doing was looking for a weak point so it could pour in troops. Once such a weak point gave way, the whole trench system collapsed. That difference is the difference between the Petersburg Campaign and the Western Front of 1914-1918. Trenches were used in both battles, but the purpose of the Trenches were different. In Western Europe, German Trenches were NOT to stop any allied offensive, but as trip wires to activate reserves held in the rear. In Petersburg, the trenches were the defense, if breeched nothing was available to stop the Northern onslaught. When the Trenches were breeched, Lee's Army was doomed.

Most Trench warfare follows something like Petersburg more then WWI. Trench Warfare happened even in Ancient times, but mostly in trenches around a besieged city. Such Sieges continued till today. With the adoption of Cannon, Trenches had to start much further away then in Ancient time, but Trenches were built. Trench warfare only exists in these two circumstances, trenches by a weaker side to keep out a stronger side (and a victory at any point by the stronger side ends the war) or Trenches by a stronger side to keep the weaker side contained while the stronger side sends it troops elsewhere (Germany in WWI, the US in Korea).

My point is Trench Warfare predates Petersburg and the WWI Trench warfare was for fundamental reasons different from traditional, Petersburg, type trench warfare.

There are four situation in war:
1: Tactical Offensive, Strategic Offensive
2: Tactical Defensive, Strategic Offensive
3: Tactical Defensive, Strategic Defensive
4: Tactical Offensive, Strategic Defensive

1 and 3 are easy to understand, one is on the attack in 1 to take something, and in Number 3, one is trying to hold onto something that someone else wants. Lee was doing #3 while Grant was doing #1 in Petersburg. n both cases tactical operations are important to the Strategic operation. The Trench holds or gives way.

# 2 is also easy to understand. That is when you march your army to a location that forces someone else to attack you. You are on the Defensive tactically, but on the Strategic level you want to gain something. Most often this occurs when you are on the attack, but need to regroup and leave your supplies catch up with you. You hold a location to be used for further offensive action. This is the Germans in WWII, holding on to what they gained in France, but do little actual attacks. Again, the role of tactics is important, it leads to either further Strategic gains or defeat of the Strategic plan.

#4 is the hardest to understand. You are trying to hold onto something, but the enemy is NOT attacking. They often are just waiting for you to go on your way. Tactical operations are meaningless. If the attack succeeds, who cares, it has no affect on the Strategic situation. Guerrilla operations operate at this level and one of the reasons they are so hard to stop, defeating them in combat at the tactical level means nothing. One has to undermine the Strategic situation and often in such situation is trying to get the people to STOP supporting the guerrillas. It what we were doing in Vietnam and now in Afghanistan and Iraq. We "Won" Iraq NOT by our Tactical actions, but by bribing the people to no longer support the guerrillas. Sinking of wells, opening of Schools, roads, ports, providing jobs are all ways to defeat the Strategic goals of the guerrillas. In many ways these are more important then fighting the guerrillas. Another area of operations is to cut off supplies to the guerrillas, even if such movement lead to tactical defeat. i.e. just being in the area hinders the supply line, thus even if defeated any force that hindered or cut off the supply lines is a victory over the guerrillas. a more important "Victory" then an actual defeat of the guerrillas themselves. In Afghanistan we are fighting a #4 type war, the military operations are meaningless, unless such operations cut off supplies.

I could go on but we are comparing the Siege of Petersburg with the Trenches of WWI. The trenches were set up for two different reasons in both battles and why Petersburg lasted less then a year, while WWII lasted for four years.

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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Informative, interesting post. Thanks.
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d_r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. I learned reading this, thanks
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Is There Some Way To See Historical Events By Year
Is there some sort of animated website where you can input a year and use an animated line as it glides over the world and see all of the events for that year?

It would be great to see what else was happening in the world in 1864. What was going on in China, in India, in Japan, etc.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yes, but it's not animated.
Wikipedia lets you do just that. Type in a year, and it will show you all of the major events from that year. Type in a decade (e.g. "1860's") and it will show you the major events that defined that decade.

A slick UI would be nice, but I don't know of one. I knew a third of those wars off the top of my head, and filled in the rest using Wikipedia (skipping a bunch of smaller skirmishes, and a couple of bigger ones, for the sake of brevity...I made my point).
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Have you ever actually opened a history book?
:eyes:
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Did I say anything that wasn't true?
This country was savage shit hole WHILE Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics flourished
elsewhere. This is not true? Go ahead & name a few great american fundamental scientific discoveries that happened during that period oh great reader of history books.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. First off, you should acknowledge post #5.
American discoveries in the 19th century:

The suspension bridge

Screw propeller steamboat

The submarine

Refrigerators

the internal combustion engine

Electromagnetic induction

The Reaper

Combine harvester

The revolver

Morse code

Steel plow

Vulcanization of rubber

Rotatory printing press

general anesthetic

IDing hemophilia

Escalator

Repeating rifle

twist drill

the first ironclad warships

The gatling gun

The first practical typewriter

web rotatory press

motorcycles

The air brake

roentgenoscope

One word: EDISON!

And many more.

Such savages. :eyes:


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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Read my fucking post, it was about the period of 1860-1870 or so.
Edited on Tue Aug-17-10 01:23 AM by The_Casual_Observer
A wiki list covering mechanical inventions from before & after that period adds nothing. Your response has no merit whatsoever.

Americans beat each other with clubs & and burned down it's own cities while Maxwell was inventing the language of electromagnetism &
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. There is stuff from 1860-70.
Like I said, you should read more.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. 1866 pulp, sulfite process, Benjamin Chew Tilghman
Solar energy: First realistic application of solar energy using parabolic solar reflector to drive caloric engine on steam boiler, John Ericsson, U.S., 1860s.

1868 Typewriter, Christopher Latham Sholes

1868 Air Brake, George Westinghouse

Machine gun: (hand-cranked multibarrel) Richard J. Gatling, U.S., 1862

Plastics (Celluloid, involving recognition of vital effect of camphor) John W. Hyatt, U.S., 1869

Aluminum manufacture: (by electrolytic action) Charles M. Hall, U.S., 1866.


pwnd yet>? :)





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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
26. Hahahahahahahahahaha (nt)
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Old Troop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. We seem to have veered rather widely from the subject of the OP.
I think there are two points of greatest interest here:
1. Discovery of what, hopefully, will be a relatively undisturbed archeological site that will provide greater insight into many aspects of the condition of POWs, the Civil War and the 19th century.
2. The horror of POW camps during this period of history. It seems to me that conditions in US Civil War POW camps reflected the resources locally available and the mindset of the commandant and, often, the local populace.
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groundloop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Good points. Having been to Andersonville...
it doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to envision the horrible conditions.

I'd never heard of Camp Lawton, interesting.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. Interesting thread. Learned a lot.
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Francesca9 Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-16-10 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. cool
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
23. More on Camp Lawton and some photos
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d_r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-17-10 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
25. Sherman
People talk about Sherman's march to the sea and all the destruction that was left as being so needless and cruel, but this reminds us that there were some reasons for that.
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