Ground Zero Muslim center may get public financing

[cal04]

Source: Reuters

The Muslim center planned near the site of the World Trade Center attack could qualify for tax-free financing, a spokesman for City Comptroller John Liu said on Friday, and Liu is willing to consider approving the public subsidy.

The Democratic comptroller's spokesman, Scott Sieber, said Liu supported the project. The center has sparked an intense debate over U.S. religious freedoms and the sanctity of the Trade Center site, where nearly 3,000 perished in the September 11, 2001 attack.

"If it turns out to be financially feasible and if they can demonstrate an ability to pay off the bonds and comply with the laws concerning tax-exempt financing, we'd certainly consider it," Sieber told Reuters.

Spokesmen for Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Governor David Paterson and the Islamic center and were not immediately available.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67Q5BW20100827

[onehandle]

1. Dear Reuters, There is no Ground Zero Muslim Center.

Even if the place blocks away is built, there is no Ground Zero Muslim Center.

[Cirque du So-What]

2. This is the first time I've seen the corporate media

refer to the Islamic Center without using the word 'mosque.' Careful, guys, you're going off-message!

[Igel]

4. That's because it wouldn't cover the mosque.

They'd have to set up two boards, two sets of books, two sets of funding sources. One would cover the absolutely secular "Islamic" center; the other would deal with the religious part of the building.

In the past I saw a Christian association try to claim "cultural" status like the Muslim Students Assoc. had claimed, and they got seriously knocked down. A couple of months later the MSA tried to get the Jewish Students Assoc. defunded. Hard to keep the cultural and religious aspects separate. They backed down when their request to have uniquely "Jewish" cultural attributes led to somebody's asking what Malaysian Muslims had in common with Moroccan Muslims that wasn't religion-based.

[quakerboy]

47. So, just like the Salvation army churches

except with a wider degree of seperation

[activa8tr]

3. Now the Tea Party people's and other racists' heads will surely ...

EXPLODE at this idea!!

I bet this will make them so so angry... I love it... except those people also own guns.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Quantess]

8. That was pretty rude.

Women do have it pretty terrible in Muslim countries.
And anyway, why should a religious center be publically financed? The government has no business financing a religious community center.

[ProleDragon]

10. Muslim women in the US fare much better.

I suppose the question of financing depends on whether the center is geared more toward religious instruction or toward community services.

[seattleblue]

11. Not going anywhere. You will have to, I guess.

Keep on defending a religion which has not changed since the seventh century. I'm sure you will go far.

[pezDispenser]

17. nice

you showed that poster.

[changed4thebetter]

18. Great retort - very intelligent

Care to make fun of how any other people look instead of offering sensible discussion?

[ProleDragon]

9. Ummm.... 'Religious Fanatics'?

Are you certain those are responsible for this Community Center?
Or maybe it's, I don't know... a Community Center.

[seattleblue]

13. Calling something a community center does not make it one.

Government should not be financing religious centers, "community" or not.

[ProleDragon]

14. Right, but broad-brushing Muslims as 'fanatics' is a little off.

[seattleblue]

15. Correct and I don't mean to call all Muslims fanatics.

I have extensive travel experience in the mid-East and have probably been in more than my share of mosques. But I did read an interview with imam Rauf of this center where he refused to say whether Hamas was a terrorist group. That raised red flag with me.

[No Elephants]

20. He also said he stands with Jews.

[pinboy3niner]

25. He condemned terrorist acts by Hamas

From Cordoba Initiative FAQ's:

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has not condemned Hamas”

Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. When Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror, those actions should be condemned. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic. In his 2004 book, he even went so far as to include a copy of the Fatwa issued after 9/11 by the most respected clerics of Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those Muslims who committed this act of terror. Imam Feisal included this in his book to prove that terrorism must be fought even if Muslims have to fight fellow Muslims to stop it.


http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

[LostinVA]

32. Except it is a community center

Do you think YMCAs shouldn't be partially funded by the community, too? What do you think that "C" stands for?

[No Elephants]

21. Progressives should also be angry at discrimination against women in

any church. Sure, the Pope is not the taliban, but neither is this imam.


Public money should be used for any religious building because of the Establishment Clause, not because we pick and choose among religions.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. a NYT article about Imam Feisal and his plan for the center written before the crazy hate campaign

Muslim Prayers and Renewal Near Ground Zero


By RALPH BLUMENTHAL and SHARAF MOWJOOD
Published: December 8, 2009


snip:

“ As a Sufi, Imam Feisal follows a path of Islam focused more on spiritual wisdom than on strict ritual, and as a bridge builder, he is sometimes focused more on cultivating relations with those outside his faith than within it.

snip:

Those who have worked with him say if anyone could pull off what many regard to be a delicate project, it would be Imam Feisal, whom they described as having built a career preaching tolerance and interfaith understanding.

“He subscribes to my credo: ‘Live and let live,’ ” said Rabbi Arthur Schneier, spiritual leader of Park East Synagogue on East 67th Street.

snip:

The mayor’s director of the Office of Immigrant Affairs, Fatima Shama, went further. “We as New York Muslims have as much of a commitment to rebuilding New York as anybody,” Ms. Shama said. Imam Feisal’s wife, Daisy Khan, serves on an advisory team for the National September 11 Memorial and Museum, and Lynn Rasic, a spokeswoman for the memorial, said, “The idea of a cultural center that strengthens ties between Muslims and people of all faiths and backgrounds is positive.”


snip:

“ Building so close is owning the tragedy. It’s a way of saying: ‘This is something done by people who call themselves Muslims. We want to be here to repair the breach, as the Bible says.’ ”

The F.B.I. said Imam Feisal had helped agents reach out to the Muslim population after Sept. 11. “We’ve had positive interactions with him in the past,” said an agency spokesman, Richard Kolk. Alice Hoagland of Las Gatos, Calif., whose son, Mark Bingham, was killed in the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, said, “It’s quite a bold step buying a piece of land adjacent to ground zero,” but she said she considered plans for the site “a noble effort.”

snip:

Joy Levitt, executive director of the Jewish Community Center, said the group would be proud to be a model for Imam Feisal at ground zero. “For the J.C.C. to have partners in the Muslim community that share our vision of pluralism and tolerance would be great,” she said.

Mr. El-Gamal agreed. “What happened that day,” he said, “was not Islam.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion/09mosque.html?_r=1

link to the cordoba intiative:

http://www.cordobainitiative.org /

link to Imam Feisal Press Conference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIPO7CVflA


/

From the Cordoba Initiative Website - Questions and answers:

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions

“Imam Feisal has not condemned Hamas”

Imam Feisal has always condemned terrorism (see his 1995 book “What’s Right With Islam is What’s Right with America” and his hundreds of speeches). Hamas is both a political movement and a terrorist organization. Hamas commits atrocious acts of terror. Imam Feisal has forcefully and consistently condemned all forms of terrorism, including those committed by Hamas, as un-Islamic. In his book, he even went so far as to include a copy of the Fatwa issued after 9/11 by the most respected clerics of Egypt defining the 9/11 attack as an un-Islamic act of terror and giving permission to Muslims in the U.S. armed forces to fight against those who committed this act of terror. Imam Feisal included this in his book to prove that terrorism must be fought even if Muslims have to fight fellow Muslims to stop it.

“Imam Feisal is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood because his book was translated into Arabic by a publisher with ties to the Brotherhood.”

Both charges are false. Imam Feisal has no connection whatsoever to the Muslim Brotherhood. The Arabic translation rights to his book were arranged by the Arabic book program at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo, United States of America.


“Imam Feisal wants to establish a ‘shariah state’ in America.”

Actually, quite the contrary. Imam Feisal believes that all Muslims must adhere to the laws of the land in which they reside, including in America. This is a basic tenet of Islam. He has repeatedly stated that America is already one of the most Shariah compliant countries in the world because of America’s adherence to our Bill of Rights and because it allows members of all religions, including Muslims, to practice their faith freely. In other words, Imam Feisal believes that Muslims practice Shariah when they fast, pray, give to charity and uphold the commandments of protecting life, liberty, dignity, the pursuit of happiness and the right to freedom of worship.


.............

Youtube video: Christiane Amanpour interviews Daisy Khan and Rabbi Joy Levitt

Daisy Khan is the wife of Imam Feisal. Rabbi Joy Levitt is from the Jewish Community Center of Manhattan


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE_XnmQRDPA

Link to transcript:

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/week-transcript-karzai-khan-levitt/story?id=11454631&page=3

.

[Milo_Bloom]

28. Islam is no more anti-woman than any other religion.

You have to learn to distinguish between the RELIGION and PEOPLE who take the religion too far.

Hasidic women certainly aren't seen as equals in their faith... but you don't hear people blaming it on Judaism.

[seattleblue]

29. I guess I missed the news about Christians, Jews, Hindus,

stoning women for adultery. I didn't know that in Christian countries woman aren't allowed to drive or are forced to cover themselves. Where is a woman political leader in a Muslim country? Yes, Islam is much more anti-women than any other religion. No matter how much you try and cover it up.

[SOS]

31. Q: Where is a woman political leader in a Muslim country?

A:
Indonesia elected Megawati Sukarnoputri as president.
Pakistan twice elected Benazir Bhutto as prime minister.
Bangladesh elected Khaleda Zia and Sheikh Hasina as prime ministers.
Turkey elected Tansu Çiller as prime minister.

Check out this photo of oppressed women in Istanbul.
They can drive too!

[amandabeech]

42. I had a Turkish roommate for two years very recently.

She left Turkey because of the treatment of women.

She said that there are two or three neighborhoods in Istanbul and maybe one in Ishmir MAYBE one in Ankara in which single, divorced or widowed women could live on their own without fear.

Elsewhere, women having their own apartment are harassed constantly and considered to be whores.

Women outside those neighborhoods must live under the same roof as a male relative or pay the price.

I assume that this is one of few neighborhoods where single women are safe. I would be interested, too, to find out where these young women live. By themselves or under the protection of a male relative?

[Milo_Bloom]

33. Are you kidding?

You have NEVER heard of abuses against women from other religions and cultures? You didn't know Jewish women (in some sects) are forced to cover themselves?

You've never heard of Megawati Sukarnoputri, Benazir Bhutto or Sheikh Hasina????


Wow, that is a whole lot of ignorance in one small post!

[seattleblue]

37. Does Israel force women to cover themselves?

Don't bother with your crap about "some sect" of the Jewish religion. I am talking about religion as a whole as you well know. Yes all religions have abused women in their history to one degree or another. Bust Islam is stuck in the seventh century. Other religions have moved on. Women get stoned TODAY in Islamic countries. That can't be justified by what has happened hundreds of years ago in other countries. Now go back to your attempts to cover up.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[Milo_Bloom]

41. ISRAEL is not a religion.

[LostinVA]

34. You have forgotten the Amish and FLDS, among others

The government in this country allows bigamy, child rape, child molestation, misogyny, etc. to continue, with very, very rare instances.

And, why haven't you mentioned Turkish Muslim women? Or American? Or British? Why do you think isl;am is some monolithic Saudi-Taliban entity? It's like comparing the UCC to the Amish, or liberal Episcopalians to Pentecostals.

I don't acre for the cultural anti-women aspect of Is;am AT ALL, nor the Scriptural basis, bit it has no more than Judaism or Christianity, if you follow the words of Paul. There are religions much more anti-women than Islam, including certain Christan and Jewish sects.

[seattleblue]

38. There may be sects of different religions more anti-women

than Islam but none have the power of the state. No the Amish and LDS don't go around stoning their women, not allowing them to drive, vote, etc. Not comparable.

[amandabeech]

43. You forget about suttee.

And aborting female fetuses to the extent that there are enough brides for the young men.

[No Elephants]

35. Maybe in theory. However, women are stoned for adultery when men are not, women are

beaten or mutilated for things like showing their faces or being in public withouc a male, even if seeking emergency medical treatment, disodbeying, etc. These things are a long way from not being full equals in church or temple services. All the Abrahamic religions put women in a setond class position.

" You have to learn to distinguish between the RELIGION and PEOPLE who take the religion too far."

Hasidic women certainly aren't seen as equals in their faith... but you don't hear people blaming it on Judaism.

Yes, but, at some point, the line blurs, to say the least. And it also depends on how you define what constitutes "the religion." What the Koran says? In whose opinion/interpretation?

Not everything Jews and Christians (and all sects of Jews and Christians) believe and pratice comes right out of the Bible. Long-standing tradition plays a role. So does widespread practice So does widespread interpretation of all of the foregoing and of the relevant holy book(s).

We aren't talking about some small group of Muslims that really oppresses women, forbids them to drive, show their faces, disobey males, etc.

[Milo_Bloom]

36. perfect example of confusing RELIGION and PEOPLE.

If you look back into the HISTORY of Christianity, you will see MANY of the same abuses... or did they not "burn witches" at the stake? (should we discuss the crusades?)

So people claim "but Islam hasn't evolved the way Christianity did." So why might that be? Is it because one religion is inherently evil and one is inherently good?

OR is it because, from a socio-economic standpoint the majority of the Islamic world lives in poor conditions. The Islamic world looks much like the European world did hundreds of years ago, with a few number of extremely wealthy people and a large number of poor. Religion has always been the most effective way for the extremely wealthy to keep the havenots in line... even better if they can instill a sense of superiority in some of the havenots so they feel they have control of things (burning the "witch" makes you feel better about your own shitty life!), just as poor Muslim men get to control their women and feel justified when they lash out, because the powers that be allow this interpretation of the religion to continue.

[JerseygirlCT]

46. There are strains of most of the world's major religions

that are less than fair to women.

But what we see from the worst cases in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, for instance, is also beyond the religion and about the culture. It existed before Islam, and has just been woven into Islam in those areas.

Much the same can be said for other faiths and other cultures.

Bad treatment of women, is unfortunately, not limited to one culture or one religion. It's pretty well spread over most societies.

[ProleDragon]

7. "What about Separation of Church and State?!?!?!"

- Quote from Christian Right upon learning of this development.

:smackhead:

[ThomasQED]

12. I find the article very confusing

and can see why anyone not very familiar with financing would too.

The headline says "public financing", then it is called "tax-free financing," "subsidy" and even "debt". Not to mention the phrase "raise $70 million in tax-exempt debt". How do you raise a debt?

I take it what we are really talking about here is a tax-free loan, not public money paying for the center.

[No Elephants]

16. Since when does any borrower pay tax on a genuine loan? Tax comes into it

if the borrower is not paying a market rate of interest. And, of course, the lender's interest income is always subject to income tax, but maybe not if the lender is a municipality.

[Yupster]

26. They mean the ability to sell tax exempt (municipal) bonds

Equity = stocks
Debt = Bonds

I have no idea how a religious institution would qualify to sell municipal bonds.

[amandabeech]

44. Payments of interest on municipal debt are not subject to federal

taxation as income and frequently tax free in the state and municipality in which the property financed is located.

IIRC, the municipality will guarantee the debt as well.

Both lack of taxation and the guarantee mean that entity holding the property financed pays less interest.

Personally, I don't like to see any governmental entity getting involved in financing ANY religiously affiliated project. I see it as excessive entanglement in religion, a theory on which courts have struck down other projects with a religious angle.

[No Elephants]

19. I am all in favor of the Imam building his Islamic Community Center where he wants, but oppose

public funding. Vigorously.

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. if all religious community centers are excluded from any public funding, I would tend to agree

However, that is certainly not the case at this time.

[No Elephants]

30. All should be. My intent is not for discrimiination against any group, only for

separation of church and state. We are blurring the line too often and too much. See also Reply #4. A place for prayer and religous teaching should not be funded w tax money. Cooking classes (I assume Muslim dietary restrictions will figure prominently) iffy. Swimming pool and basketball--fine, if everyone is really welcome. Etc.

[alp227]

23. This had better just be a consideration!

It's bad enough that the Bush administration wasted billions on pseudoscientific, dishonest abstinence-only education and all sorts of other faith-based initiatives. I say zero tax dollars should ever fund any religious organization as long as the First Amendment is in effect.

[Codeine]

27. I support them building their center

but oppose public financing of ANY religious organization. Any true progressive should.

[SocialistJan]

45. "Ground zero Muslim center"... how manipulative! eom