Education secretary says schools have been lying to children and parents

[kpete]

Source: The Hill


Education secretary says schools have been lying to children and parents
By Gautham Nagesh - 08/29/10 11:02 AM ET

Secretary of Education Arne Duncan said the Obama administration's Race to the Top contest has reversed the trend of officials lowering educational standards and misleading students into thinking they are prepared for college.

"As a country we've dummied down standards. We've reduced them due to political pressure and we've actually been lying to children and parents telling them they're ready when they're not," Duncan said on Sunday during ABC's "This Week".

He also argued the educational system in America has reached a crisis point that threatens the nation's long-term economic stability.

"We have to educate our way to a better economy. In this country we have a 25 percent dropout rate," Duncan said. "That's economically unsustainable and morally unacceptable. We have to get the dropout rate to zero as quickly as we can. The status quo is not going to work for the country, we have to get better."

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/116255-duncan-says-schools-have-been-lying-to-children-parents

[IndianaGreen]

1. Duncan wants the schools to crank out future obedient consumers

rather than well rounded educated citizens with good critical analysis skills.

[Clovis Sangrail]

5. do you think the dropouts are "well rounded" or "obedient consumers" ? /nt

[IndianaGreen]

9. Neither! They are future canon fodder for the military.

If it weren't for the economic draft that forces many folks to join the military, we would have unemployment nearing 20 percent.

[valerief]

19. The smart ones will join the elites' private armies. nt

[truth2power]

148. The real unemployment rate already is 18-20%. This from a number of sources

I've read. :shrug:

[stray cat]

10. I hope there are volunteers to hire the drop outs or those who pass without basic skills

because I can't afford to hire those who can't perform

[JDPriestly]

15. How many job openings do you have right now?

And what general types of jobs do you offer? Dishwashing? Sales? Teaching? Data processing? Legal? Medical technicians and professionals? What level of education do you want people to have? What level is really needed for the jobs you have open?

[Lightning Count]

22. Better question would be how much does a HS dropout dishwasher need to be paid.

To make a living wage.

[liberation]

26. Maybe if all these hiring HR managers got their asses off the internets and started hiring

... maybe this shitty jobs market would pick up? Maybe that is what's wrong with the economy, all these people offering jobs are instead wasting their time on the intertubes telling us what they are looking for when hiring people?

[anigbrowl]

66. Yes, what use it is to a job-seeker to know what skills employers are willing to pay for?

Clearly, it's employers' responsibility to just hire people at random, and pay them for as long as it takes to find out whether they can do a given job or not. Maybe we should have a law banning employers from mentioning which qualifications they require, or even requiring any qualifications at all. I mean, it's possible that any random person hired for a given job could turn out to be the greatest natural (job title) in history.

Next time I see some HR jackoff posting an ad like 'Brain surgeon for busy hospital - must have medical degree and clean malpractice record,' I'll call them up and tell them to stop holding the economy back with their silly requirements and exclusionary attitude. I could use a few hundred thousand a year myself, why shouldn't I get a crack at the job?

[JDPriestly]

119. The biggest problem is age discrimination.

Employers either want someone who is younger than most of the applicants or more experienced. If you don't just fit perfectly, employers will never give you an interview. I just do not believe that employers who are serious about hiring someone have any problem hiring a well qualified employee in this labor market. That is nonsense. People are desperate for work.

If it is so very difficult to find a candidate with just the right qualifications for a position demanding great skill, the answer is to offer more money -- or if possible -- training. Willingness to train an employee over 50 is a big issue. Employers expect employees to keep up with new technology -- at the employee's expense. Some of us over 50 have several degrees and have retrained and gone back to school so many times that we cannot afford to invest any more in education. If an employer really wants to hire an employee, the employer should bear some of the cost of the retraining of older employees.

[wordpix]

127. problem is grade levels mean nothing - we have 12th graders graduating with 4th gr. skills

Get THAT under control and things will improve.

[JDPriestly]

135. People in their 50s and 60s had to meet high standards when they

went to school. If employers seriously wanted well educated people, they would hire older workers right now. Let the younger workers go back to school and prepare themselves to meet the standards that the older workers already satisfy.

Employers' age discrimination is the problem. Do I understand more of what I read and can I write more effectively at the age of 67 than I did at age 18? Yes, and yes. Practice makes perfect.

Employ older workers if you want workers with the best educations and skills. We do learn as we live. In age there is wisdom.

[wordpix]

140. I agree with you there, too

[JDPriestly]

141. My husband taught remedial pre-freshman English at a junior

college in our area. He is very patient and a wonderful teacher. The students were poorly prepared, but there were always a few who were really working hard and had potential. Unfortunately, the funding for the program was cut this year.

It is a big mistake to blame a child's poor performance in school on the teacher. Occasionally the teacher may be at fault, but most often, the child's failure is caused by immaturity (our children are not tested for readiness before starting kindergarten or the first grade) and lack of pre-school education.

I have told this story a million times. We lived in Austria when my children were of kindergarten age. They were enrolled in the free, half-day municipal kindergarten. They did not learn to read and write while there. The focus was on developing the social, listening, concentration and story-telling skills that a child needs in order to begin to learn to read and write. There may be some unusual children who immediately learn language through visually. But most children need to hear books read to them before they develop the attention span and interest that is necessary to learn to read.

No, I never taught school. My mother studied education (but did not teach until I was grown( and while in college, happened to work for a woman who was an expert in child development. I benefited in many ways from her experience.

We push our children far too much. That schools them in failure, and they need to find their own pace, learn at their own rate of readiness.

Another thing about my mother (who is probably the most amazing person I know) is that she went to a one-room school in which she could explore learning at her own pace. Learning was about satisfying curiosity and if that is your motivation in learning, you can only succeed. Because learning is an adventure in which we satisfy our curiosity.

Learning should be an exercise in find things out. The whole process of learning should be asking questions and finding answers. Unfortunately, I suspect that the emphasis on test scores makes that approach to learning impossible in our classrooms. No wonder we are producing a population of bored stiff people waiting to be told what to laugh at.

[wordpix]

143. "we push our children far too much"---as an experienced teacher, I agree

As I wrote recently for an article that hasn't seen the light of day (b/c MSM does not want to publish):

snip:

Pushing students to the next grade before they’re ready can exacerbate attention problems and attention deficit disorder (ADD). As new, more advanced material is presented, students lacking the necessary skills can’t understand and fall further behind. A vicious cycle begins when these students don’t get the help they need and they “turn off the switch.” The less they comprehend, the less attention they pay; the more they miss, the less they comprehend. Boredom, apathy and profound disengagement ensue. By June, these students have progressed little because they’ve been mentally absent most of the year.

snip

We need to face the fact that much of what is taught in high schools is unnecessary for successful adulthood. Most employed adults, for example, don’t need to know the succession of pharaohs, how to solve quadratic equations or the function of the endoplasmic reticulum. Schools are turning off too many students with endless minutiae and required courses and assignments that are better suited for college than high school. Students miss essential skills they do need when they’re trying to learn advanced material they aren’t interested in or ready for.

As a result, it’s not just dropouts who can’t calculate the time needed to pay off a car loan. Many high school grads have only foggy notions about such things, too. They pass Algebra II but can’t work with fractions, scrape through English IV but can’t write a sentence, meet science requirements but don’t know where their electricity comes from. It’s no wonder the US has dropped from 1st to 12th among 36 developed nations in college degrees. Many American students are simply unprepared for college and if they attend, half don’t graduate.

snip

[JDPriestly]

153. Meanwhile, Austrian and German kids learn to weave on a loom

and make all kinds of things while our kids are struggling with the alphabet in kindergarten.

I was thinking about readiness for first grade. It's the lack of readiness to START school that causes the child to proceed as you described.

All this baby learning stuff -- teaching infants to read or whatever those genius series of baby torturers have thought up -- is totally wrong. The absurd obsession with developing precocity in children isn't just counterproductive, it actually prevents the child from becoming a well-rounded person.

[MindPilot]

155. How then does that explain your average teabagger?

50+, can't spell or write coherently, little understanding of history and a dearth of critical thinking skills. I really don't think you can make this a generational thing.

[Wednesdays]

122. "THAT is the laziest man I've ever seen. He's been sitting there

for TWO whole hours, and hasn't moved an inch."

"Well, how do you know?"

"I've been sitting right here the whole time, watching him."

:think:

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. How many did you hire last week?

Last month? Last year?

If you're hiring I know a bunch of very well educated folks who need jobs.

[No Elephants]

136. Let me know when Duncan 's policies actually reduce the drop out rate.

[superconnected]

137. To be quite honest I've met a few drop outs that were self educated and did fine.

My dad owned businesses and the day I graduated from college he literally had 50k on the table - why I don't remember, but he said "pretty good for a guy with an 8th grade education". He employed hundreds at any given time. I've known quite a few that did well including in the tech industry. Don't knock them all. And yes, I agree, that's not the way to start out, if they can help it.

[wordpix]

144. my grandfather was an entrepeneur with an 8th gr. education, too

Got very rich but lost a lot gambling. Built hotels in Miami Beach when it was a small town, started car rental and cab companies when Ford was starting to crank out cars for the masses.

But let's face it, most people don't make it as a hs dropout these days.

[JDPriestly]

13. How about, Arne wants the schools to crank out future

unemployed but very well educated people.

Didn't Peter Schiff say that people should be working at washing dishes? Who needs a high school diploma to do that?

I washed dishes for a pizza joint back in the 1980s. Even then, I didn't poor in my own soap or bleach. It was all sort just there. I just washed the dishes. I didn't even need to read or write except to fill out my application forms.

If washing dishes are the job opportunities of our time, then who needs education, Arne?

Bring back the jobs, and education will take care of itself. People learn when factors in their environment motivate them to learn. In this economy, people are just motivated to try to get by.

[anigbrowl]

68. 'Bring back the jobs, and education will take care of itself.'

You might as well say 'bring back widespread consumer spending, and the jobs will take care of themselves.' How is a company that can't find suitably educated/skilled employees supposed to make money so as to be around after people have had time to get better educated? More likely, they're going to set up shop somewhere else.

[JDPriestly]

118. Any company that can't find suitably educated/skilled employees

isn't looking hard enough. There are all kinds of well qualified people who are looking for work.

But, of course, if an employer is unwilling to hire someone who is over 50 or has a disability or is currently unemployed, maybe even homeless or who has a bad credit record, then the employer is not really looking.

It's very easy to find an extremely well qualified, hard-working, experienced employee who is over 50. Extremely easy.

[wordpix]

151. "As a country we've dummied down standards." It's not the standards, it's MEETING them.

We have high standards. Algebra I for HS freshmen, Algebra II and geometry through HS junior years and if you don't make the grade, repeat senior year. English III and IV for HS includes long research papers and tough reading assignments. Same with history, science and other subjects.

The real problem is the growing no. of students who should not pass these courses b/c they don't have the basic skills in reading, writing and math; they should be failed in their courses or grade levels but are passed on to the next level, anyway. Teachers and schools are loathe to fail students because it makes the former look bad and they'll have to deal with angry parents, so they give the F student a D and then he's someone else's problem next year.

Students should be retained in their grades if they cannot meet the standards, which in fact are high standards in elementary, middle or high school, until these students' skills are up to par. But no, they are pushed along b/c our "standards" have no way to deal with 11 year-olds with 2nd grade skills, juniors with 4th gr. skills, and so on.

The interventions for such students are paltry and scattershot. An IEP and pullouts for tutoring or special classes doesn't make it when a student is five grade levels behind in skills. :grr: It should never have gotten to that point in the first place.

[Diane R]

2. I'm glad someone is taking a fresh look at our educational system and willing to make hard decisions

[IndianaGreen]

4. Duncan is just a privatizer

He did a fine job screwing up Chicago, and he now wants to do it nationwide.

[Fire1]

6. BINGO!! We have a winner!! n/t

[mopinko]

20. i hate to tell you, but he didn't screw up in chicago.

better schools stopped white flight into the suburbs, and improved the city greatly. we are hurting right now due to the loss of property taxes on foreclosed properties, and lack of transfers of property, but all in all, we are in way better shape than most other places. until this recession started, this city was booming and blooming.

ren 2010 didn't solve all the problems of the chicago system, but it is lightyears ahead of where it was when daley took it over.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Tell us about those test scores

Arne doesn't care about white flight or property taxes or foreclosures. It's all about increasing student achievement and data that shows growth. So please, fill us in. Share some real data that shows how Arne didn't screw up Chicago.

[wtmusic]

32. Here you go

"Under Duncan's watch, the city's schools for the past seven years have seen increases in some state test scores, though they continue to lag behind the Illinois average. But the graduation rate has risen 6%, and 53 new schools have opened. Duncan has spearheaded merit-pay incentives for both teachers and students as well, and suggested opening the country's first gay-friendly high school. In each of these endeavors, he has tried to get the backing of Chicago's often recalcitrant teachers' union. This effort has earned him praise from both of the nation's largest teachers' unions."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1866783,00.html

If the unions made it easier to fire bad teachers and didn't oppose merit pay charter schools wouldn't be an issue. They're shooting themselves in the foot.

[mopinko]

34. it's actually 75 schools.

and 6 of the charters, iirc, are held by the teacher's union.

[wtmusic]

65. Maybe that's why union criticism of charters has been muted.

Best way to silence critics - give them a teat of their own.

[msanthrope]

157. And the teacher's unions will take a teat...we've seen that. n/t

[Fearless]

43. The country's first "gay friendly high school"?? The pandering isn't just clear it's crystal.

:wow:

All high schools should be gay friendly. It is no reason to start a new, separate school, for gay-friendliness. That's separate but equal. And it isn't right.

This is yypical of their whole stupid movement. Tear down everything and start over instead of altering what we have. All changes must come internally. That's what they don't get. Spend money on fixing small problems instead of spending it aimlessly.

[truth2power]

56. Please tell me Arne didn't suggest that. It's the stupidest thing I've heard

in a long while. Think of the implications.

Just one more indication Arne doesn't know what he's doing. Oy!

[wtmusic]

62. He suggested it, but he didn't think of it.

There's been a gay-friendly high school in NY since the 80s, and it apparently serves a need.

"Tenaja Jordan, 19, is one student who Harvey Milk officials say is on the way to such success....“When I got to HMI, it was like, ‘Real live gay people beside myself! Wow!’ ” Jordan says. She transferred to Harvey Milk for her final year, graduated in 2003, and is now attending college. She credits Harvey Milk with helping her to grow up—fast. “It’s more than just being gay or lesbian or queer,” Jordan says. “Most of the people I knew had also been kicked out by their parents. So we were all talking about getting housing, getting jobs, getting through school—not about the new episode of American Idol. We didn’t have time.” Jordan credits HMI and Harvey Milk staff, the majority of whom are gay themselves, with knowing how to talk to her, and how to listen. “They weren’t trying to tell me how I felt,” she says. So closely bonded do kids become that the school has had to institute an “aging out” policy: At 21, you must leave. “I’ll ease out at 21,” Jordan says. “But I’ll carry this place wherever I go.”

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/features/10970/index1.html

"In an ideal world, all students who are considered at-risk would be safely integrated into all NYC public schools, but in the real world, at-risk students need a place like the Harvey Milk High School. HMHS is one of the many NYC small schools that provide safety, community, and high achievement for students not able to benefit from more traditional school environments. HMHS offers the same curriculum and graduation standards as any other NYC public high school, with the same Regents and other rigorous tests, and highly trained educators...

Why Do We Need The Harvey Milk High School?

According to a 2005 National School Climate Survey:

* 73.6% of students heard derogatory remarks such as "faggot" or "dyke" at school.
* 22.1% of students experienced physical harassment at school based on their sexual orientation.
* LGBTQ students were twice as likely as the general population of students to report they were not planning on pursuing post-secondary education.

In the 2008 academic year at HMHS:

* 96 students were enrolled in 9th to 12th grades.
* Nearly 90% of HMHS seniors graduated (well above the NYC average).
* More than 60% of HMHS students go on to advanced programs or college."

http://www.hmi.org/Page.aspx?pid=242

[Fearless]

64. This is idiotic.

We shouldn't be opening schools simply to protect GLBTQ students. ALL schools should mandate this now. What do you think it says to students when schools need to be made for them. It tells them that they're not wanted. That they're different. Separate. This is the opposite message that we should be teaching our children GLBTQ or straight.

[wtmusic]

67. Schools have mandated it for a long time

but in practice we're not there yet. I would like to see what other students have to say but there's not much online.

I agree completely with your sentiments and IMO in time these places will disappear. The high school my kids attend has a Gay Students Club which would have been unheard of at my high school in the 70s. But at the same time taunts still happen, and as the article points out kids often have special needs because of their home situation.

Apparently the legal opponents to Harvey Milk are more upset that the school gets extra funding.

[Fearless]

71. Mandates do not work. It's a change of ideology and beliefs that is needed.

I think we'd both agree that students should have places to seek advice and feel safe. But I don't believe those places should ever be separate from the rest of society. We shouldn't withdraw from the world, we should push into it. There will always be taunts. You can't make everyone believe that gay is ok. But students need to be given support in school, and as you said, and as I know and have experienced, many schools have such supports. We need to focus on fulfilling the guarantee of a safe and nurturing school for all of our students.

To me the idea of creating schools solely to be gay-friendly, is detrimental. It tells students they are different. And it tells other students that those GLBTQ students are different. Unfortunately in our society, different is almost always feared.

[wtmusic]

76. You're right, it's a crutch.

As a parent, I'm torn on this one. If one of my kids was gay it would be all well and good for me to say, "You have to come out, you have to take the taunts, you have to blaze the trail so that kids 20 years from now won't have to." And if they came to me first and wanted to do it of course I'd support them 100%.

But high school is such a critical age for self-esteem to make them do it IMO is asking too much. So the alternative is either to ask them to laugh along when other students make fag jokes and hope they don't commit suicide, or put them in an environment with other students, with whom they can relate. The second should be an option.

[Downwinder]

78. If you are going to need a thick skin, at what stage is it best to develop one? n/t

[Fearless]

80. +1

Having worked with kids for years, you'd be surprised how thick their skin really is. Sometimes, they just need to know that they're not alone. Knowing you're not alone and that something isn't wrong with you makes taunting and name-calling so much easier to live with.

[Downwinder]

86. I think I developed my defensive measures in the third grade

when a fourth grade girl came to my defense. There must some studies that show when the brain matures to the stage where a individual develops defense mechanisms. With all of the talk about bullying that is obviously not part of our current educational structure. We had bullying 60 years ago, but we seemed to handle it.

[wtmusic]

90. That's long before most kids are aware of their sexual identity. nt

[Fearless]

93. Well I'm sure many students were able to handle it.

But we should always consider self-improvement a must, especially when we're talking about teaching and administering in schools. I think we should up the ante and strive to make schools a safe place for all students where they can learn enjoyably. Constitutionally speaking (state level) every student has the right to a quality education. I think we need to continue to strive for that on all fields.

It doesn't mean coddling students, but giving them the tools to be strong members of society.

[Downwinder]

94. From a layman's perspective it seems that we have attempted

to limit offensive behavior and neglected defensive strategies.

[Fearless]

96. Absolutely we have!

Because it's easier. We can say we TRIED to do something. We can show data showing that incidences decrease. But we're only succeeding if the goal was to help SOME students instead of ALL. If the goal is truly to help all students, they we are still failing miserably.

[wtmusic]

81. IDK, ask the 1,700 teens who kill themselves every year. nt

[Fearless]

82. And making ALL schools GLBTQ friendly instead of segreating GLBTQ students...

Is what is needed.

I don't think obtaining a thick skin should be put off. Either you "hold someone's hand" as a child and help them through issues when they're young, or they're just going to have adverse affects as adults when you let them go.

[wtmusic]

83. In a perfect world, that's correct.

onedit: people attend Harvey Milk by choice. So there is no segregation taking place - students can attend their area HS if they want to.

[Fearless]

88. We can be close to the perfect world in this regard.

We know that students are teased and bullied. We can't stop it. We can make rules and protect students all we want. But it won't stop the issue. We need to be proactive. We need to equip students (and all people) with the tools to conquer their demons.

I think I said it earlier, but it bears repeating. Sometimes people just need to know they're not alone, that they're not wrong. Support for students should always be given. Schools should be a safe place for EVERY student. We cannot bend on that.

We need to realize that we can't control what kids say any more than we can control what adults say. And we shouldn't want to either. Everyone should be allowed to believe what they wish. Granted they should not be allowed to hurt others with their beliefs. So...

1. We need to condemn bullying in our schools. Actively and continuously. Providing consequences.

2. We need to educate our students on why bullying is wrong in all it's forms. This is actually very easy, because most if not all students have been bullied at some point. And, I believe that bullying is usually if not always a result of issues in the bully's life. I don't believe that some students are just bad apples.

3. We need to provide safe places for all students. GLBTQ/Straight Alliances, etc. These places provide community and friendship for those who feel wrong and alone.

3b. We need to educate students on how to manage negative feelings. All students, not just the bullied, but the bullies as well.

There's an allusion that I like to use when talking about this... It's that one of the most important aspects of being human is love and finding love. (Generally I mean in the sense of romantic love, someone to share oneself with.) But we never teach it. Ever. We don't teach about how to treat people. We just tell people... "Don't do that" when they screw up. Quite frankly, the single most amazing aspect of human life, we simply let kids have a free-for-all, guess-and-check, if at first you don't succeed try, try again, etc. This is criminal.

The same goes for bullying. We let it happen and deal with the results. We are not proactive. We do not stop it before it starts. We do not teach person-skills. Ever. And it's a damn shame that the answers are out there but aren't taught.

[wtmusic]

89. Trust me, they don't want you to hold their hand as teenagers.

They want friends, they want to move beyond the household, they want to explore life outside. They want acceptance by their peers.

If that isn't available, some kids are strong enough to deal with it. Others aren't.

[Downwinder]

91. Is being a groupie or an individual genetic or determined by environment? n/t

[wtmusic]

92. A simplistic and false dichotomy. nt

[Fearless]

95. In regards to GLBTQ students

Your second sentence is completely true. It is pretty much the definition of what teenagers do. However, this isn't about holding hands. This is about providing students with support. Of course there are students who don't need or want support. This is true of adults as well. BUT there are students who need support. And it is our duty to support them. The goal of schools should be student learning. Teasing and bullying impacts the ability of students to learn. We as educators, ethically, must remedy this to the best of our ability. One of the ways is providing support.

I am a gay man. And believe me, after a poor family life and the Catholic religion, support would have been very beneficial to me. Of course, I didn't get it. Am I still here, yes of course, but would I have been better off with support, absolutely. Just thinking of the time I wasted as a youth thinking about being different, or wrong, or alone, and I can only imagine the better uses of the time I had, had there been support.

The question is am I a better person for having gone through the issues I did? And the answer is indeterminable. I never didn't, so I couldn't tell you. But I do know that there are students that we fail each year (not academically mind you). There are people who fall through the cracks. There are people who turn to suicide or crime because they don't think they have alternatives, and we need to help these people, ethically, as a society.

[Downwinder]

99. I hear you. My question is how do we help develop defensive skills.

If someone is throwing rocks (figuratively or actual) at you, you learn to dodge, find a shield, or throw rocks back. At what stage of development do you learn this? If you are past that stage of development when the first rock is tossed can you then be prepared to counter the aggression?

[Fearless]

100. I think that many of these responses must be promoted from birth.

And I think that the order you gave it is actually the best too in terms of response... dodge, shield, and then throw. You should be doing the most dodging, a little bit of shielding, and almost no or no rock throwing.

To be honest, my experience is with secondary school, so to talk about early child development is a bit out of my expertise. Regardless, I believe an age appropriate education of defensive skills is necessary. And, personally, I believe the greatest defense is finding a safe zone or a strong support network of peers and adults who you respect and can talk to.

In high school, I believe in the philosophy of immersion. Immerse students into populations of (for instance) special needs students, GLTBQ students, etc. and they will inevitably connect with these people and thus help defeat bullying. If a student knows someone with special needs or someone who is GLBTQ, they are vastly less likely to pick on another who falls into those categories. I assume this goes true for younger kids too. I do know that up until an age, kids don't even realize physical differences, such as race, I believe it's somewhere around 1st grade, so I would recommend starting at least before that.

[Downwinder]

102. As usual it goes back to family support and self image. There must be more.

Some prosper without.

[Fearless]

104. I had been talking with someone else earlier...

About feelings of acceptance. I think it must be key to student defense. When I look at all of the school shootings we hear about or the bully-induced suicides in our public schools, so many of them consider themselves to be outcasts. Helping students get involved in clubs or after-school activities may be helpful. Pediatricians have written on how it's helpful for social development. In the end, I don't think it really matters what the positive is in the student's life, but just that there is a positive which they can look at and be happy about when bad things happen.

[Downwinder]

109. I was a chameleon, never a joiner.

I was accepted on the fringes of all groups. I never wanted to join one and be identified with it. It is still pretty much that way today.

[Fearless]

111. I can understand that

We all have very different personal needs.

[mopinko]

101. nobody is making them go, and fyi part of ren 2010 was

the idea that all kids deserve an appropriate education, and that means a lot of different things at once. there is also an all girl and an all boy school, hispanic culture school, asian schools, and an elementary school called namaste, etc. one of my few beefs is that they really ought to have arts magnets, at least as many as the college prep schools. chicago has a large creative economy. i think lots of the kids who drop out are creative kids whose talents aren't really that useful in the common schools. art and music are gravy at most schools, and piled on top of gen ed, when they ought to be integrated into it.

:shrug: seems like something that ought to be an option for kids who would thrive there.

[truth2power]

70. I agree. It's idiotic. For all the reasons you mentioned. n/t

[Fearless]

63. It's what the Time article says... Granted it is TIME.

"Duncan has spearheaded merit-pay incentives for both teachers and students as well, and suggested opening the country's first gay-friendly high school."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1866783,00.html#ixzz0y2HcbHIl

[mopinko]

33. no, ren 2010 was all about white flight.

school choice was the number one reason that people were moving out of chicago. that trend has been reversed. it was about what makes a well functioning city. that was what daley wanted when he took control. crappy schools were hollowing out the city.
there is still a ways to go, but most chicago parents now have what they wanted most- choice. it's not all charters, either. they added about the same number of public schools as charter. providing you accept that a selective enrollment school is a public school, which i know for some reason some people don't. but there were lots of other options made a available to families, like language immersion, math and science academies, international studies. attendance boundaries were loosened. and just plain more new local schools in neighborhoods that had overcrowded schools. 75 new schools in all.

and why is it now that you think test scores are the proper measure? seems a little selective of you.
the stats are a mixed bag, but i think a lot of what was done is making the system stronger. and i think a lot of things just aren't in the numbers because the schools are doing things that are not in the assessments. and some stats are dismissed, even tho i don't think they should be. ie- the selective enrollment high schools all have great numbers. that is to be expected. so that is discounted. but having kids in those schools and not in those schools, i know that you cannot assume that those kids would be doing just as well in the local schools. if my youngest, who is now in one, were at the local school right now, she would be flunking out from boredom. instead, she is taking ap classes and is charged up about school and itching to get into college. so some of the numbers are those sort of road not taken situations.

if you really want to know about the whole thing, read this-
http://www.catalyst-chicago.org/news/index.php?item=2486&cat=23
i must say, tho, that although i think catalyst is a great publication, it is adversarial. there is a skeptical cast to the writing that rubs me the wrong way sometimes. that's all fine. i just feel the need to put that out there. i don't argue with them particularly, just see things in a little more positive light than they do sometimes.
anyway, it is a great publication, and a great resource. and btw, the founder of catalyst was interviewed many times when arne was nominated. she had some specific beefs, but all in all, she thought he was a good choice, and had done a good job in chicago.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Tell it to Arne

He's the one who focuses on data and test scores. He doesn't give a shit about white flight. How can we hold teachers accountable for white flight?

"Sorry Mrs Jones, but we are going to have to reduce your pay because too many of the white kids in your class moved away."

:rofl:

And PLEASE - your failure to use capital letters and correct grammar is beyond annoying when you are writing about EDUCATION.

[mopinko]

103. white kids are moving back, not away. they might move

but they are staying in the city in increasing numbers. you sorta missed my point.

[Fearless]

132. I'm sure the economy has nothing to do with that.

[mopinko]

133. this is a long term trend, and yes, the economy,

the chicago economy, where democratic principles have created a thriving economy, are to "blame". i admit we are having problems now like everyone, but we are weathering fairly well.

[JDPriestly]

44. Was there gentrification? Is Arne taking credit for a change

in the demographics of the area.

I ask that because I live in an area of LA that has seen an incredible amount of gentrification over the past 10 years. We live near downtown LA in what used to be nearly entirely poor immigrant families. Now, it is mixed and the immigrants aren't so poor any more. In an area in which there were few college educated parents, there are now lots. I suspect that the scores in the schools have gone up in this area simply because the children now enrolled in the schools have parents who care.

As I understand it, Chicago got rid of a lot of public housing and otherwise sort of starved out a lot of poor people. Could that explain at least some of the better test scores? Also, do the better test scores include schools in which students are from poor families in which the parents have not bothered to try to enroll them in a charter or other school that requires some effort for enrollment?

[mopinko]

58. those kids are in the mix, whether they move or not.

the points you are making about the demographics are not variables in this system, they are givens.
chicago has changed a lot, and changing neighborhoods change schools. but pretty much all of those kids are in the system somewhere. probably in better schools.


and i think a city has to grow or die. change or die. mine is thriving.

[kwassa]

84. Test scores are what Race to the Top is all about.

Test scores are the means to merit pay for teachers. Bad test scores, low pay.

Or firing.

Now, exactly what they measure is another question.

That is why there is so much focus on them.

[mopinko]

105. race to the top is, in part, about evaluations

about locally controlled evaluation processes that rise to a certain level. NOBODY, I REPEAT NOBODY is talking about using value added or any other 'bubble test', for more than 50% of anyone's evaluations. and the states that won were states where the teacher's unions were on board for whatever the process was. it really is not a top down thing, it really is a bottom up thing.
and merit pay is usually a matter of 1 or 2 percent. if it would sow fatal discord at your work place for someone to be rewarded to the tune of 2%, you have more problems than just test scores.

[kwassa]

117. Merit pay is 1 or 2 %?

uh, no.

The pay differences in DC are huge.

and value-added for 50% of an evaluation is also is huge. 50% is a rather large part of a teacher's evaluation.

There are no evaluation systems out there that accurately measure what a teacher actually does. Currently all that is measured is a score for math and a score for reading. That is it. I think we teach a couple of other things. I think the job of teaching involves a few other things as well.

[mopinko]

124. how about if they trace high school graduation and

college entrance as well? yeah, i know, still need to filter for a lot of factors, but the teachers who get the high school graduation rate to increase- not the number, but the increase, ARE the best teachers. even if you had them in 3rd grade.

and dc merit goes to 21%.

[kwassa]

161. How to you tell which teachers are responsible, collectively or individually?

If the issue is individual merit, how do you break it out of the graduation numbers?

[mopinko]

35. i disagree strongly with that statement

i am a parent of 5 kids in chicago, and i think he did a good job in chicago. all in all, from a parent's pov, since daley accepted responsibility for schools, they have improved drastically.

[msanthrope]

156. Just because you are from Chicago, have kids, and facts and figures

simply does not mean you know what you are talking about.

And the teachers on this thread will tell you so.

}( ;-)

[Fearless]

12. What are these "hard decisions" exactly??

[IndianaGreen]

14. I think the poster was referring to Duncan's use of Viagra

just before he gives the big BOHICA to our public school teachers.

[mopinko]

36. what bohica was that?

teacher's are fighting here, like everywhere, but there was no mass bohica here.

[Fearless]

46. And some are fighting against the interests of their students now too.

[Fearless]

41. +1

[Diane R]

61. That's your interpretation, not mine.

[wtmusic]

17. +1 nt

[usaf-vet]

53. Don't kid yourself. There have been (pick a number) say dozens of fresh looks

at our educational systems. Looks from the fed, the states, the counties, the local districts, the local parents groups, you name it. They have taken fresh looks, gather fresh data, written fresh reports AND built fresh new shelving to store them on. What has been lacking for years is implementing the recommendations. Why? No funding from the feds, to the states, to the counties.......you get the point. Dozens of new mandates to "improve public education" without money to implement. After nearly 25 years of hearing lots of lip service I've concluded they want schools to fail so they can be privatized. Period! End of story!

[No Elephants]

139. Hard decisions are not necessarily wise decisions.

[Diane R]

142. And the status quo isn't always wise, either.

[mike r]

3. We need more EMPLOYED graduates and EMPLOYED teachers

We don't need more high school graduates who know calculus but can't find a job.

[Downwinder]

7. How many people use calculus? n/t

[JDPriestly]

18. Engineers use it, especially aerospace engineers, I suppose.

People who are really good at math really love calculus. It must be fun because people who know how to do it love it. When I was a "girl," girls did not learn calculus so I was out of luck. My dad loved it and so does one of my daughters. I think that it is used for a few practical things, but mostly people learn it because they enjoy math. I realize that I might be wrong about this, but that is my impression.

[Recursion]

50. Pretty much every engineer has to use calculus, many scientists and economists too

Though we joke that once a scientist has written down a problem as an integral it's "solved" because "we'll just hand it to the engineer and have him/her figure the answer out." Though, the sort of "Calculus I" you might expect a high school senior to do isn't particularly ever useful except as a stepping stone to more advanced forms of calculus like differential equations.

Even in engineering we usually use tricks like Laplace Transforms that make the actual calculus unnecessary (people may love the theory of calculus, to my knowledge nobody actually enjoys doing a convolution integral).

IMO the Calculus is taught pretty badly in most high schools. There's too much emphasis on conceptually understanding what's going on (a feat that evaded Isaac Newton); while that would be nice, all the actual operations of calculus are quite simple and can just be taught and drilled. The actual math is rather easier than analytic geometry or trig, which pretty much every high school student slogs through. Students who are going on to a science or math field could take a "concepts of calculus" class in college.

[JDPriestly]

120. Economists use it. That explains why someone I know who loves

calculus became an economist.

[Clovis Sangrail]

23. do you ever get in a car ? /nt

[Turbineguy]

37. If you can drive

without constantly bumping into the car in front of you, you are already doing calculus.

[Downwinder]

51. I question that two years of calculus affected my driving skills.

From the benefit of MS and its attendant brain damage I have determined that vision and the brain's internal clock are more important to depth perception and rate of closure judgment than being able to integrate deceleration curves.I am still able to differentiate and integrate on paper but that is not an aid when crossing the street.

But as you say, incremental functions are an innate function of the on-board computer (brain).

Is calculus taught that way now? If so I would think that was a great improvement. it was not when I was in school.

Arithmetic table and nomograms can be used to obtain the same information without the possibility of maximizing the error.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. It helps develop critical thinking skills

It's not about whether or not you use it. It's about what happens in your brain as you are learning it.

[wordpix]

146. I agree - that is the most useful thing about algebra and geometry, too

[XemaSab]

52. Most scientists need calculus

n/t

[boppers]

60. How many people CAN'T use Calculus, and resort to trial and error?

If people don't know how to do something, that doesn't mean they stop doing it... they forge ahead blindly anyways, often at great cost.

[XemaSab]

54. We need more EDUCATED graduates and EDUCATED teachers

Turning high school and college into a career training program is what's gotten us into this mess.

If you expect all of your graduates to be auto mechanics, cable TV installation dudes, sales clerks, food service professionals, cashiers, receptionists, and other jobs that require some education but no history, literature, calculus, biology, government, or other traditionally "educated" disciplines, then you shouldn't bother teaching them those subjects.

This is why we have a nation of Palin fans. They're all ignorant, and she's their queen.

You make a liberal education the privilege of the upper class, then you're just leading America into a Brave-New-World-esque caste system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Arne, when you taught, what did you do to discourage your students from dropping out?

Oh. Never mind.

[truth2power]

57. Arne never taught in a classroom. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. Then why is he the secretary of education??

I rarely agreed with Rod Paige but I had more respect for him because he had at least walked in my shoes.

[truth2power]

69. Why is he secretary of education? ...

:rofl: Beats me!

He graduated from Harvard University with a degree in sociology. He helped create and ran Ariel Community Academy, a charter public school in Chicago. "The Ariel Community Academy was later incorporated and renamed as the Ariel Education Initiative, or AEI. The original initiative was supported by John W. Rogers, Jr. chairman and founder of Ariel Investments..." < ellipses in original>

He was never a certified teacher and has no classroom experience.

Bio here: http://www.answers.com/topic/arne-duncan


* * * * * *

Here's something else that demands an answer: The above bio contains several paragraphs detailing the praiseworthy accomplishments of the Chicago School system under Mr. Duncan.

Yet here is a thread posted today by madfloridian:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/6639

Teachers in the Chicago Public School system are still being fired. (to be replaced by TFA graduates, of course). What could have happened between 1998, when Arne left, and now.

Seems like all of Arne's "improvements" amount to nothing.

Unless, of course, it's about busting teachers' unions and hiring the unqualified on the cheap.


ARNE DUNCAN IS A FRAUD! And it reflects poorly on President Obama, who seems more interested in cronyism than hiring someone who knows what they're doing.

[mopinko]

107. everybody knows that.

it doesn't really have as much to do with this as a lot of people think.

[truth2power]

110. It has everything to do with it. If he had ever experienced

what it's like to manage a classroom of students; if he had ever taken any methods classes, just maybe he'd have a different attitude toward the teaching profession. He's a corporatist through and through.

[mopinko]

113. you and a lot of people feel that way. he does have

other people that he collaborated with on ren 2010 that helped him to form these policies, including the ctu, and the ed docs all over central. everybody doesn't need special knowledge of the right front tire to build a car. engineers design cars, even if they never worked on the assembly line. sometimes that presents some confusion, but really they usually can digest how the process works without getting greasy.
arne's actual experience in the actual world taught him that all children can learn, and it taught him a lot about what they needed in human terms to do it. maybe there were only 20 kids in the program at once, but he was there helping them. i may be the only person on this board that believes this, but he cares deeply about giving kids what they need. his focus is on kids.
sad for him that he needs to get teachers on board, some of whom despise him. but he really cares a whole lot more about kids than teachers, or even schools. or school boards. or state legislators.

i happen to belong to the sadly quite minute ritchie daley fan club. haven't run into too many members even here on democratic underground. but the esteem with which ritchie held arne might be a clue that he was on to something. although folks can have their own point of view on how and why they did what they did in chicago, this much i know- they brought change to a system that was encased in the concrete of patronage and insider deal, wrapped in layers and layers of accountability avoidance systems. they blew that away.

[truth2power]

125. Chicago Public Schools firing Nationally Board Certified teachers

and replacing them with TFA grads. See here:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/6639

I guess Arne's CPS "reforms" didn't take because all those really bad teachers were still there.

I know a teacher who obtained National Board Certification, and it's a long and very difficult process. There's no way to convince me that this isn't about getting bodies in the classroom on the cheap. Arne doesn't know what he's talking about. In a couple of years it'll be evident what a mess they've made, but of course the spin will put the best face on it.

It's a travesty. Obama and Duncan are trying to destroy public education in this country.

[mopinko]

130. this is gonna end up in court, but from what i hear

the firings were strictly seniority based. that may not be the larger pattern, but that is how it went down at the schools where i know people.
imho, these layoff were strictly a paper shuffle thing- lay them off, make a budget, pass the budget then hire them back. we will see what it looks like on sept 7. ctu is all over it, tho.

and yes, chicago does use tfa teachers and again, the teachers that i know think the ones they have seen are great teachers. :shrug: not really any way to staff this many schools without casting a wide net.

[Jax]

159. kick for the TRUTH

the moron never taught in a classroom.

Perfect fucking choice for the DLC Coprorate slime.

[Fearless]

11. Hey all that sounds like what Arne Dunkin is doing actually... Go figure.

[totodeinhere]

16. Duncan is one of my biggest disappointments. I don't see one wit of difference

between what he is offering and what we got from the previous administration.

[mopinko]

21. you should look more carefully.

rttt and nclb are 2 very different animals. and renaissance 2010 was quite the different animal as well.

[HankyDubs]

45. Yeah under NCLB we never had

newspapers publishing the names of teachers whose students didn't perform well on a standardized test, effectively blacklisting the teacher.

We had to get a democratic president to really push the anti-teacher, anti-union movement to its extremes.

[Fearless]

47. +10000

[mopinko]

131. nor did we have any real progress toward

getting rid of bad teachers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Just different names

Still imposing programs on kids without paying attention to what really works. Still ignoring poverty and cultural factors. Still not allowing parents to be involved and no plan to hold them accountable. Students still not held accountable either.

The one change is we are no longer called terrorists by the sec of ed. Now he just endorses firing us.

I'd rather be called a terrorist.

[Livluvgrow]

24. Oh o.k. Arne

You are right Arne I lie to my students everyday. I have done nothing to help their situation and am only holding them back from their dreams. I will be sure to announce tomorrow that ol Arne doesn't think that it is a good idea for them to drop out since I have failed to tell them about the consequences of dropping out. Arne we all know you hold the magic touch here right. Starting next year dropout rates are going to plummet now that you are telling them the truth. I have a question for you Arne. What is the dropout rate in Chicago public schools? Are you being held accountable for that? Is your pay tied to success or failure? Do you really think you have a clue about how to keep kids from gangs and drugs and sex and violence if so you forgot to tell CPS about it or did you just lie

[crim son]

25. I get that people are cynical because of who's being quoted here,

but I don't understand those who appear to be arguing against a better or different educational system. I am certain that some of the deep shit we're in, socially and politically, is a direct result of how we have opted to school our kids. Critical thinking, humanities, and the arts are passe, and the focus is now on the maths and sciences where, generally speaking, we do miserably compared to the rest of the world. True, who needs calculus to pump gas, but if pumping gas is as much as your hoping for then you have more problems than having to listen to Duncan.

I'm not from the U.S. but moved from Vancouver, B.C. to Salem, Oregon when I was in my teens. One of the first things I noticed at my new school (nicknamed "the country club on the hill" because it was in the wealthier part of town) was how abysmally far behind my fellow students were in pretty much every area of study. No, I didn't merely notice it, I was frankly stunned. I went from average student to goddamned genius merely by changing residence. Since then I don't find that there's been any improvement in how our schools prepare students and I'd know. I have three kids, two of whom are gifted, and I have had to be actively involved in making sure they weren't bored to tears in regular classes.

My point: people, there is room for improvement! When our kids are not reading the best literature in school they are not learning about cultural and human variability and they tend to be unskilled thinkers. To wit: the teabaggers! Teabaggers can't articulate what they believe in because they can't articulate anything beyond what they saw last night on Showtime. Go ahead, hate Duncan, shoot the messenger but don't ignore the message. By and large, we are not incorrectly viewed by the rest of the world as a country full of good-natured, idealistic dummies and here in the U.S., we are paying for it.

[Lightning Count]

28. So what are the major differences between Canada's school system and the US's?

?

[anigbrowl]

72. I'm from Europe, not Canada, but here are some key differences...

- Academic streaming from around middle school onwards ('around' because many countries split schools into primary and secondary centered at age 12/13 rather than elementary, middle, and high).

- Longer school year and longer school days.

- Lots of homework.

- Results-based evaluation of teaching methods and materials. So math books are more kid-friendly than they used to be, but learning math still means being able to recite times tables, do long division and so on; Rote learning (ie by repetition) is inadequate as a primary method, but it is still an important and useful technique.

- Both teachers and school-local exam materials are regularly inspected by the education authority.

- State-run examinations every few years. Sorry folks, they exist in any country with a strong education system. Students don't like them, teachers don't always enjoy being stuck with the syllabus, but they tend to yield results.

- Essay questions. I'm always amazed by how many exams up to about the college level have a high percentage of the scoring based on multiple-choice questions.

Sure, they're quick to score and have a certain amount of predictive value, in that either you know the right answer or not - and guessing the answer has only a 25% chance of being correct if there are 4 possibilities. But in a lot of other countries only 20-30% of the scoring is on multiple-choice questions. For the rest, you're given questions and expected to write an answer, ranging in length from a paragraph to an essay of 1-2000 words. Thus, exams are very hard work - but that is what makes a good grade worth something in the first place.

Teacher salaries are relatively similar in developed countries. Here's a comparison of wages indexed to inflation, adjusted for purchasing-power parity, and with tax and hours data for context: http://www.worldsalaries.org/teacher.shtml

[Lightning Count]

114. I understood everything, except what exactly is academic streaming?

?

[Fearless]

49. The reason is that the policies he supports do not help students.

[kwassa]

87. I did the same thing by moving from Connecticut to Ohio

from a high-powered suburban school to a rural school in Ohio. I learned an amazing amount in West Hartford public schools, the best part of my early education.

I was probably a full year ahead of the other students in my class in Ohio, and was pulling straight As, which I had never done before, being a mixed A and B student. The next year my parents paid tuition for us to attend public schools in a nearby college town, which were better but still not as remotely as good as West Hartford.

Public school systems can be incredibly different from one another. There is no one-reform-fits-all.

[sandnsea]

115. High standards and measuring growth

are good places to start, regardless of school.

[txlibdem]

39. National standards are sorely needed

Local school administrators have repeatedly lowered standards to keep their cushy 6 figure salaries and pension, regardless of the damage to students and our society as a whole. College entrants are not ready to learn, too many need remedial study.

Denver and Kansas City are working to change that with standards-based education.

Everyone, from principals to parents, has to see school differently.

Students don't spend a year in the third grade and then move on with whatever scores they get on their report cards. Instead, students advance within different subjects as they achieve learning targets.

Students who are struggling in one subject can't slide by with poor grades. But where they are excelling, they leap ahead more easily.

http://saving17000kids.kansascity.com/articles/remaking-schools/

Kansas City school Superintendent John Covington had been molding a standards-based ideology at least as far back as his first superintendent job in Lowndes County, Ala., from 2000 to 2006.

He'd started mixing early childhood and kindergarten, letting early readers move ahead and giving strugglers a better chance to catch up.

By the time he'd taken his second top post at Pueblo, Colo., Covington was talking up ideas about how to unbind the nine-month school system. Why keep children who could soar ahead locked in grade levels? Why herd others onward at the end of the year with barely passing grades and crippling knowledge gaps?"

http://saving17000kids.kansascity.com/articles/remaking-schools/

[Fearless]

42. Standards do not make good schools. Period.

You can throw a thousand rules at a school and it will only shut down further. Good schools are made by dedicated individuals with the interests of children at heart. Not the overbearing influence of outside organizations, public or private, penalizing them for not reaching arbitrary standards.

[anigbrowl]

73. Not by themselves, but they matter

How good of an education system do you think we'd get if there were no academic standards at all? They're a necessity of students are to achieve sufficient competency in things like math.

[Fearless]

75. I did not say we shouldn't HAVE standards. I said they don't make good schools.

There is a difference between having goals than having mandates as well. Students tune out very very quickly as a result of high-stakes testing, etc.

[txlibdem]

85. National standards are not arbitrary standards

Arbitrary is the situation we have now, when corrupt or incompetent school administrators can set the bar so low that their scores appear great and they get a raise or promotion or at least get to keep their job long enough to collect a nice $80,000 pension for life.

Standards based schools HAVE the interests of the children at heart. Haphazardly run schools with varying levels of standards throughout the county or the country is causing a 25% dropout rate nationally (it's 30% here) - that is NOT having the interests of students at heart. That is why every school has to have the same standards, follow the same curriculum. The standards based schools in the article I linked allow students to choose what they will study and they get a reward when they achieve the educational objective. And they cannot skip a level and are never left behind or bored by a class going too slow and the teacher helps guide them to stay on track. This puts the child in control of their own educational progress. The children interviewed love the new system. The teachers love the new system. Neither group wants to go back to the old way.

No amount of good intentions is going to fix this broken system. Embrace the change, treat it as an adventure or a learning experience.

[Fearless]

98. Again this has nothing to do with whether they exist or not.

More standards to not make good schools. Good educators, a healthy school environment, etc. are far more important. Or can you tell me that no schools were successful before national or state standards?

Additionally, I embrace many standards. But the degree to which we have taken them are not good. And the focus which we have made them where students are graded based on test-taking skills instead of transference to life-skills is folly.

[txlibdem]

121. How could one know if school district A was more or less successful than district B

when they can both arbitrarily lower their standards. A straight-A 4.0 GPA student in a lax district could be a B or even a high C student in a high-standards district. It's so wonderful when nobody can compare your work to any standard measure but ultimately the children suffer when they have to work twice as hard once they get into college or the job market.

[Fearless]

123. Even standards are in the end subjective.

Just because you have a standard doesn't mean that grade inflation doesn't happen. In fact when money is on the line for your district, you'll find that grade inflation is more rampant. The reasoning being: "If Billy and Bobby get A's, they we will meet AYP, and money will help our students learn." Of course, it's not quite that simple, but it happens in every borderline school district in the nation who use standards to base state or national funding.

[sandnsea]

116. Standards are not rules and they aren't arbitrary

Standards are a set of defined objectives used by authorities for comparitive purposes.

A standard would be a child with respect.

The rules a parent implements to meet those standards is another matter entirely.

[Fearless]

129. We're talking about educational standards...

Which are directives on what needs to be taught when, competencies the state believes are good for students to have, and general knowledge. They are assessed by state tests, like in MA the MCAS. The problem with this system is that the standards are arbitrary. They don't transfer knowledge from the test into real life. Likewise, the tests penalize students often for cultural differences, including first language, disability, and so on.

Parents are not the people who deal with standards. Educational standards are the school's responsibility. I'll link you an example of state standards for MA, to show you what they actually look like. Incidentally, it is impossible to properly teach every standard because there aren't enough days of school. Yet more standards and stricter standards keep coming. Teachers teach to the test instead of teaching so that students will have the thinking skills to process real life problems instead of just multiple choice and free response answers on state mandatory exams.

Link to an example of state standards: http://www.doe.mass.edu/frameworks/current.html

[Odin2005]

40. YOU are the fucking LIAR, Arnie!

[Fearless]

48. "We have to get the dropout rate to zero as quickly as we can."

Has it ever occurred to him that the educational system is not properly serving students at all. That high-pressure, high-stakes testing, English only classrooms, a complete lack of student-centered policy-making, the corporatization of education FOR PROFIT, and penalizing good teachers for the flaws of the system, in short, EVERYTHING he proposes, IS THE CAUSE of a large majority of new issues occurring in schools today???

[anigbrowl]

74. What well-educated countries do you know without any high-stakes testing?

Exams are supposed to be difficult.

[Fearless]

79. The difficulty of an exam has nothing to do with why high-stakes testing is wrong.

Ok, for instance, let's look at Massachusetts, general accepted as upper-tier in education in the nation (by state). MCAS is our high-stakes test. Without a passing score, students will not receive a high-school diploma. Waivers are occasionally given, but the system for them is very slow and ineffective.

So, we need to ask ourselves, what is the purpose of the MCAS? One would think it is to raise academic achievement in the state:

While data shows as a whole, scores are rising year-to-year, what do higher test scores show? They show that students are better at answering the questions on the tests. So, we get the idea of "teaching to the test". The bigger question is however, does having higher test scores make you better prepared The answer is yes. However, there is a but. Yes, you are better prepared, BUT better prepared to take tests. Data shows that students have a very difficult time translating test-taking knowledge into the real world.

The most famous example of evidence for this is a classic MCAS question in which students are asked to decide how many school buses will be needed to transport a given number of students. It's a simple division question. For instance... there are 85 students and buses hold 32. How many buses do you need? Test givers found a large number of students who got this question wrong because they answered (for instance) 2 r1 (2 remainder 11) instead of three buses. While they can do the math for the test, translating it into real life is very difficult.

Why is translating test-taking knowledge to the real life so difficult? Because schools focus inherently on test scores instead of on student translating of the information to the real world. Schools depend on test scores for money. (In fact the reason for testing in general is theorized as being because politicians wanted greater influence on what students were learning, but I digress.) The best interest of schools is to have higher test scores. So they focus solely on that.

You could change the system to focus funding on both test scores and translation of student learning into the real world, but honestly why bother continue to keep high-stakes testing then? If the goal of education is preparing students for success in the real world and you are now focusing on both that and testing, why keep testing at all? Spend more time focusing on actual student learning and leave testing behind. Of course this will not happen because high-stakes testing is a corporate money-making industry. It is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

[mopinko]

108. yeah, its occurred to him. that is the basis of ren 2010

he is not really proposing the things you are talking about. really more like the opposite.

[Fearless]

138. "Not really proposing" = Yeah I am but I don't like to phrase it that way.

Regardless, it's not what he intends even so much as what he's doing. He is clearly, CLEARLY out of touch with data-driven research methods and intends rather to play god with our children's education on the whim's of corporations who whisper ideas in his ear.

[mopinko]

145. that would be the cynical view.

and that would be the cynical conclusion.
whether to trust any of these people is quite the issue unto itself. but what if you did? just sayin', as a thought experiment, what if you did?

[Fearless]

149. That would be the solution which data shows to be true.

His methods are not working. They are hurtful. They need to stop. It's not my opinion, its data-driven fact.

[DeSwiss]

55. Of course the schools have been lying.....

Excerpts from: The Lies My Teacher Told Me

Woodrow Wilson

"Under Wilson, the United States intervened in Latin America more often than at any other time in our history.. In 1917 Woodrow Wilson.. started sending secret monetary aid to the "White" side of the Russian civil war... This aggression fueled the suspicions that motivated the Soviets during the Cold War..."

"..Wilson's interventions in Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, and Nicaragua set the stage for the dictators Batista, Trujillo, the Duvaliers, and the Somozas.."

"He was an outspoken white supremacist--his wife was even worse--and told "darky" stories in cabinet meetings"

Christopher Columbus

"Columbus discovered America and proved that the earth was not flat... Right? We tend to "underplay previous explorers. There were probably 15 or more individuals and groups that "discovered" and settled America before Columbus. Even if Columbus had never sailed, other Europeans would have soon reached the Americas... Columbus's voyage.. was epoch-making because of the way in which Europe responded."

"..new and more deadly forms of smallpox and bubonic plague had arisen in Europe.. Passed on to those the Europeans met, these diseases helped Europe conquer the Americas and, later, the islands of the Pacific."

"Columbus claimed everything he saw right off the boat. When textbooks celebrate this process, they imply that taking the land and dominating the Indians was inevitable if not natural. Most important, purpose from the beginning was not mere exploration or even trade, but conquest and exploitation, for which he used religion as a rationale. If textbooks included these facts, they might induce students to think intelligently about why the West dominates the world today."

Native Americans

"Historically, American Indians have been the most lied-about subset of our population. Did Europeans "civilize" the Americas? Actually, anthropologists tell us that "hunters and gatherers were relatively peaceful, compared to agriculturalists, and that modern societies were more warlike still. Thus violence increases with civilization."

"..textbooks cannot resist contrasting "primitive" Americans with modern Europeans. In what ways do we prefer the civilized Third Reich to the more primitive Arawak nation that Columbus encountered? If we refuse to label the Third Reich civilized, are we not using the term to imply a certain comity? If so, we must consider the Arawaks civilized, and we must also consider Columbus and his Spaniards primitive is not savage."

"Europeans persuaded Natives to specialize in the fur and slave trades. Native Americans were better hunters and trappers than Europeans, and with the guns the Europeans sold them, they became better still. Other Native skills began to atrophy."

"Europeans did not "civilize" or "settle" roaming Indians, but had the opposite impact."

"..from the start in Virginia.. settlers fled to Indian villages rather than endure the rigors of life among the autocratic English. Indeed, many white and black newcomers chose to live an Indian lifestyle... some Natives chose to live among whites.. The migration was mostly the other way, however.. Europeans were always trying to stop the outflow. Hernando De Soto had to post guards to keep his men and women from defecting to Native societies... right up to the end of independent Indian nationhood in 1890, whites continued to defect, and whites who lived an Indian lifestyle, such as Daniel Boone, became cultural heroes in white society."

http://www.criticalthink.info/Phil1301/lieshist.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Lies-My-Teacher-Told-Everything/dp/0684818868

- And they still are.........

[Fearless]

97. Additionally they're lying because funding depends on A's and good test scores.

They lie about them as often as they can get away with it.

[DeSwiss]

106. When one starts out lying about the past.....

...to justify and cleanse heinous and atrocious acts, then lying about the present is not only easier but necessary in order to continue to prop up all those past lies.

So now most people are used to only the comforting lies. And they refuse to acknowledge the truth whenever they are confronted with it because lies are what they know. What they're comfortable with. So they chain themselves to the lies and live a life of denial.


- Even while they know that only the truth can set us free.

[Fearless]

112. Absolutely. n/t

[RBInMaine]

77. That 25% does not account for the MANY who return to finish in alternative programs.

[4_TN_TITANS]

126. So now teachers = liars?

Good God, what more does it take to wake the NEA into taking serious action against this clown?

[Fearless]

134. Clearly they're making money in this too.

[mopinko]

150. he didn't say teachers.

he we referring to school systems. not really the same, eh?

[mike_c]

128. with all due respect-- I am a high school drop out....

Today I have a doctorate and am tenured faculty at a Cal State campus. Off topic, I know-- my point is simply that dropping out of school is not necessarily a bad thing in every case, and drop outs are not doomed to membership in a permanent underclass.

[BillH76]

152. Sigh. I thought you were gonna say you were a rich guy. n/t

[superconnected]

154. Glad you shared your story. I've met plenty of high school drop outs that did very well

including my dad who owned businesses all his life.

[fascisthunter]

147. DUH.... nobody saw this coming???

what has happened to common sense. Of course standards are lowered. What is expected of publicly funded teachers is ridiculous.

[JCMach1]

158. Let's see dumbed-down by testing- Arne's solution, just bust the unions

AND wait for it!


MORE TESTING

Obama and Duncan are clueless about education and should give local control back. Let local systems and states decide what their pupils need.

[Jax]

160. +1,000,000 they are CLUELESS about education

bust those unions.

[w4rma]

162. Can't Obama hire a single competant cabinet member? Just one?

And listen to them? Instead he brings this jackass on board.

[Nevernose]

163. You need your PARENTS' permission to drop out, not your school's.

The drop out rate is one of the few things that really can't be blamed on schools.