New Yorkers Want Islamic Center Moved, Poll Finds

[davidinalameda]

Source: NY Times

Two-thirds of New York City residents want a planned Muslim community center and mosque to be relocated to a less controversial site farther away from ground zero in Lower Manhattan, including many who say they favor the project, according to a New York Times poll.

The poll indicates that support for the 13-story complex, which organizers said would promote moderate Islam and interfaith dialogue, is tepid in its home town, confined mainly to Manhattan and those who identify as liberal.

Nearly a decade after the Sept. 11 attacks ignited a wave of anxiety about Muslims, many in the country’s biggest and arguably the most cosmopolitan city still have an uneasy relationship with Islam. One fifth of New Yorkers acknowledged animosity toward Muslims. Thirty-three percent said that, compared with other American citizens, Muslims were more sympathetic to terrorists. And nearly 60 percent said that their friends had negative feelings toward Muslims because of 9/11.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/03/nyregion/03poll.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&src=ig

[prolesunited]

1. Wow, I thought the nation was governed by the Constitution

and laws, not polls.

If it were up to polls, we would still have Jim Crow rules, and Mexicans would be deported.

[SnakeEyes]

3. Despite supporting the community center...

The constitution argument really doesn't apply here unless they are asking the government to not allow it. We all have constitutional rights while others can oppose and protest how we choose to exercise those rights. I have the right to speak without government interference but others have a right to protest what I say.

[HuckleB]

34. Yes, whining about it is also covered by the Constitution.

One still wonders why so few Americans understand the values for which the nation claims to stand.

[Uncle Joe]

70. It is ironic with the corporate media using their First Amendment Right power to magnify

enough fear and hatred so as to pressure a minority group; religion in this case from exercising their's.

[MikeW]

8. why zoning isnt in many communities

we just had an adult bookstore rejected a permit beucase it didnt fit into
the character of the community.

[bowens43]

14. and that's relevant because???

[aquart]

28. There is no zoning problem.

They can build the eyesore if they have the cash. They don't have the cash and all the parties seem to be backing away. The religious front man doesn't like the criminal history of the money front man. AND NOBODY HAS SEEN THE MONEY. Unless lots has been happening under the radar, they don't even have clear title to the property yet.

I SAID it smelled of scam.

[No Elephants]

48. IF indeed the imam's goal was scamming, then both sides were slime.

[HuckleB]

33. Self delete. Posted in wrong place.

[pezDispenser]

16. and unequal rights based on sexual preference!

errr wait....

[Igel]

22. Try this parallel.

A Walmart is planned for your community. You hate Wally-mart. But they own the land and it cleared the zoning commission.

The argument people are making is that they have a right to build, and we should all celebrate that right, exult in the exercise of a right.

I suspect many people would, on the other hand, adopt the "anti-Constitutional" attitude that they should *not* build, and many would deny them their rights by protesting. Such protesters, I suppose, should shut up.

I personally mind neither Walmart nor anti-Wally protestations and protesters. If Walmart bends to popular or community pressure, that's their business.

[No Elephants]

46. Building a Walmart doesn't seem to have much to do with freedom of religion

or equal rights for minority religions, so I am not seeing exactly how your attempted analogy fits.

[No Elephants]

47. Self delete. Dupe

[chimpymustgo]

58. And were they "polled" on exactly how FAR is far enough? That's when you start to see the

silliest of the very question. Constitutional rights shouldn't even be subject to effing polling.

[SnakeEyes]

2. 2/3rds? wtf?

I thought NYC was more tolerant? Didn't know it had that many racists or bigots or whatever you'd call it

[Sixathome]

5. NYTIMES

lies its all bullshit. All my people are from there. Guess the other third are just the Muslims? give me a break!

[donheld]

38. Who owns NYTimes?

Where does it get most of it's advertising dollars?

[golfguru]

27. May be New Yorkers witnessed the carnage first hand on 911

and are spooked by anything which relates to Islam near Ground Zero.
It is well known that all 19 attackers were muslim religious fanatics.

[HuckleB]

36. And New Yorkers probably see and know more Muslims than most Americans.

It doesn't wash.

[No Elephants]

49. Then why did the center sail through a lengthy process without a single objection?

(per Bloomberg?) Apparently, no one objected until primary and election time, when the usual suspects made this a political football.

[CynicalObserver]

50. well-known in real-life, but maybe not on this forum. Also, the name 'cordoba initiative' will

not be cross-referenced for historical connotations by posters here, generally.

[Stuckinthebush]

4. So?

They'll get over it. THere are new, pretty news items coming at them every day in NYC. I give them a few months and they'll say, "Eh. Who cares."

[SkyDaddy7]

I hope it does not move!!

Then a few years from now everyone will see just how FUCKING STUPID THEY WERE ACTING!

[SkyDaddy7]

6. I hope it does not move!!

Then a few years from now everyone will see just how FUCKING STUPID THEY WERE ACTING!

[golfguru]

37. Rest assured it will never move

because it may never get built. Unionized construction workers
might refuse to build it.

[valerief]

7. Rights don't get voted on. nt

[MikeW]

9. sure they do ... everyday on zoning and planning boards

Ever lived in a gated community? Youve got no rights there either.

[bowens43]

13. not at all the same thing nt

[prolesunited]

18. You really don't understand the arguments you are feebly

trying to make.

The community center/mosque *already* cleared the zoning commission. Zoning laws can't prohibit the construction of a particular religious institution, only if the use fits with the zoned use of the area. For example, you can't build a church or business in a strictly single-family area because it's not zoned for those uses.

In the case of gated communities, you are provided with a list of covenants BEFORE you buy the home. When you buy your property, you enter into a contract, agreeing to abide by these rules. The covenants vary from community to community, with some far stricter than others. If you don't want to follow those kinds of rules, you are free to buy a house elsewhere.

Now that you have a better understanding, how do either of those situations apply to the NYC situation?

[valerief]

61. You mean I'm going to be FORCED to live in a GATED COMMUNITY?

When did that get added to the Bill of Rights????????????

[Lightning Count]

10. Similar #'s to the people in favor of deporting the Roma out of France. nt

[struggle4progress]

63. Or perhaps to German support for deporting Catholics in the 1870s or for deporting Jews in the 1930s

[LanternWaste]

72. Which is another good illustration...

Which is another good illustration that popularity and polls are rarely indicative of good sense.

[WellsStreetHell]

11. no suprise

Well, the great "blue" city of New York elected Giuliani twice, followed by the billionaire republican.

[bowens43]

12. So?

what makes these idiots think they have the right to request it be moved?

[SnakeEyes]

23. As private citizens

They have every right to voice their opinion. As already posted... it's like choosing to protest a Walmart being built. If Walmart owns the land and it's properly zoned the company has a right to build there. We have a right to object to them doing so if we don't like it.

[DLnyc]

15. So those who actually live here (Manhattan) are mostly fine with the mosque.

And, four fifths have no animosity toward Muslims and 67 percent don't think Muslims are sympathetic to terrorists. So I think the New York Times is spinning this a bit.

[emilyg]

17. You have a link for that?

[DLnyc]

32. The "link" is the OP

" . . . poll indicates that support for the 13-story complex, . . . is . . . confined mainly to Manhattan and those who identify as liberal.

. . . One fifth of New Yorkers acknowledged animosity toward Muslims . . . Thirty-three percent said that . . . Muslims were more sympathetic to terrorists ."

And, as a long-time resident of New York City, I will tell you that I'm much more fond of my neighbors (who have thousands of different religions, languages and customs) than I am of a bunch of demagogue, neocon assholes who are more concerned with the loss of their macho fantasies then they are with the lives of actual people who live, and die, here.

[aquart]

31. I'm so glad you admit it's a mosque.

I'm not fine with it.

On edit: I'm also no longer worried that the eyesore will be built.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=mosque+park51+Sharif+rift&btnG=Google+Search

[emilyg]

35. I'm not fine with it either. Thanks

for the links.

[Jim Sagle]

39. Nor am I.

[Nihil]

52. Well, there's a surprise.

[LanternWaste]

73. it's just as valid to call the local library a Men's Room....

There's a bathroom in the public library near my place. I imagine if it's valid to call the Cultural center a Mosque, it's just as valid to call the local library a Men's Room.


Sigh.

[riderinthestorm]

74. Do you have a link to the plans? I'm really curious about the square footage

I actually lived for a couple of decades in Wheaton IL (home of churches, multiple international religious headquarters, and Wheaton College). The mega churches that were being built there were a big deal and frequently trumpeted in the news. In my town, the zoning for the worship space was 40 - 60 sq foot per person. Which means a 2000 person church (Wheaton Bible Church or some other new box church) had to have at least 80,000 square feet. That's pretty much the industry standard (feel free to google it) and since religious construction was an enormous priority for this community, everyone pretty much knew it too who lived there, including me.

If the Cultural Center/Community Center/Mosque in NY is going to house 2000 worshipers, it's going to be an enormous part of the 100,000 square foot center. If not most of it.

So you are saying the space is akin to the bathroom in your public library... can you tell me what the percentages are of the square footage of the bathroom to the rest of the library? Cuz I'm guessing the bathroom in your library isn't 80% (and perhaps even greater) of the entire structure. If it were 80% + of the entire structure, I'm guessing it wouldn't be called a library anymore, it would be called... a giant bathroom with a reading area and rightly so.

But of course I may be wrong. Everyone else appears to have access to the plans for the Community Center and keeps insisting the worship space is tiny, itsy bitsy, entirely insignificant.

[BDavinciNY]

19. I'm a New Yorker and I don't want it moved

It's absurd to me that most of my fellow New Yorkers want it moved because of this bullshit reasoning from the right. For the opponents it's a morbid reminder of 9/11 and hating Muslims just because they are Muslim. I feel that if we give in to the fearmongering and the hate tactics and the intimidation the RW brings to force the community center/mosque to be moved elsewhere , then we would have lost our values in America. I greatly disagree with two-thirds of my fellow New Yorkers because they was intimidated by the right. Even then I really think a majority of real New Yorkers don't really care whether there is a Mosque anywhere in the City. We see all the people from around the world with their cultures, creeds and faiths and we get along just fine. I say build it anyway just the spite the right. If a Christian evangelical wants to have his services at hotel nearby the WTC site and want to have his church there, then the mosque should be there too. We have rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution always. It works in all times especially in times like this, where we need to hold firm to our beliefs and not be give it up due to intimidation or a majority says so.

[NickB79]

20. People wanted segregated schools in the 1950's too

Too damn bad.

[SnakeEyes]

24. Those were government institutions

It's a bit different.

[ProudDad]

21. And I want every fucking christianist church plowed under

but we don't get to vote on religious rights here...

Sorry...

[SnakeEyes]

25. nobody is voting on anything.

But you have a right to protest the building of a christianist church in your area if you choose.

[ProudDad]

44. Jeez, lighten up...

I guess I should have put my :sarcasm: thingie in my post...

I really don't give a shit what cult ignorant mythmakers want to join...

[golfguru]

29. It is freedom of religion Vs. Freedom to speak out

Both are valid points of view in this case.

[ProudDad]

45. Indeed, in USAmerika you have the right to

push poll the public in order to create a controversy where none existed before...

Just to sell newspapers and elect corporate tools...

What a fuckin' great country... :sarcasm: (cool, I didn't forget it that time)...

[Blacksheep214]

26. We all opened our hearts and wallets!

We did this to help people who were innocently wronged.

Now all I can think of is Fuck NY and their bigoted melting pot.

I want my money back until we can vet out the bigots and assholes who are holier than the rest.

Take your organized religion and its associated bias and hatred and shove it!

Ignorant douchebags those 2/3rds!

[aquart]

30. You gave money?

You didn't check their background? Tax liabilities?

Don't expect a refund.

[Blacksheep214]

43. 9-11 Concerts?

Any of those fundraisers ring any bells?

My list of places NOT to visit is growing.

Arizona and NYC are out!

[CynicalObserver]

51. you are referring to the murdered people on 9/11?

'
We did this to help people who were innocently wronged." I assume you do think the allah akbar jihadists wronged them?? were they more wronged than folks who feel bad about not being able to stick a mosque nearby?

or is this about the muslim guy with no money wanting to raise money in countries so unfree even you might not like them\;'

[AlphaCentauri]

40. let them build the center and go and build a Mega Cristian church 2 blocks from Mecca n/t

[DonCoquixote]

41. Do not be fooled

There are many real New Yorkers that not only resent how Fox is using this, they have resented the way Bush has been exploiting their tragedy since 9-12-01, especially with their attempt to use Rudy to turn New York into a red state.

All the same, as someone who was raised in view of the Towers, as someone who knew many people that died there, let me say this: The day New Yorkers fall for Fox, and become less open, then they will have killed the New York spirit, and manhattan will be just another
place to put a Wal-mart!

[Turborama]

42. Good points, well made. In case you missed it, Jon Stewart did a really good piece on this Wednesday

last week, showing how Faux are exploiting this: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-25-2010/tennessee-no-evil

Hat tip to Azooz for sharing it here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=501105&mesg_id=501422

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

53. I tried the link in the OP, but all I got was an advert

I guess you have to pay to read the New York Times.

What kind of poll was it? Was it random? A good sample? An online poll?

:hi:

[Evasporque]

54. Mob Rule...Rule of Law only applies when it is favorable for the majority.

State constitutional amendments removing rights from LGBT people.
State Laws that discriminate against people with brown skin.
Federal Laws that discriminate against LGBT people...

This country is going straight to hell thank to the Conservative Mob.

Lets call it what it is...this new ultra conservative and nationalistic movement is not based in anything other than
fear and hate. that is what drives mobs.

[Javaman]

55. My tin foil hat glows...

:tinfoilhat:

While all the outrage over this non-issue continues to rage, a thought came to me the other day.

The spot where this community center was to be built is prime real estate.

Who do you think would be interested in that land? Just about any wealthy person on the earth.

So what better way to get that land? To create a non-troversy.

What I wait now to see is what will be built there instead if the community center in question is forced to move to another location.

This is so not about the center, as always, it's about money.

:tinfoilhat:

[Hosnon]

56. *moan* *groan* *sigh* I have to agree with the Teabaggers...

I want my country back...

[bherrera]

57. When did you lose it?

I am from Spain, I find all these controversies in the USA to be quite interesting. Somewhat childish sometimes. And there is a lot of xenophobia and religious fundamentalism. Which impacts Christians and Jews as much as Muslims. It is so bad, I definitely wouuld not want to live there.

[Hosnon]

59. Definitely childish. With one breath they laud our Constitution and with the next they

demand we politely ignore it.

Fortunately, the Constitution almost always wins in the end.

[chrisa]

60. These are the same people who would be against the Civil Rights Movement.

If this were the 50's and 60's. If this shows anything, it shows that widespread hatred and fear is still possible.

[ehrnst]

62. What I prefer may be very different than what I think should be allowed.

Perhaps many of the people of NYC make that same distinction?

"Over all, 50 percent of those surveyed oppose building the project two blocks north of the World Trade Center site, even though a majority believe that the developers have the right to do so."

[Better Today]

64. I don't want to see it moved, however...

at this point I would imagine that many NYers who may have been in favor of letting it remain may have now changed their minds. Not because of the propaganda BS directly, but because the propaganda has now drawn so much attention to the site, that it is now almost certain to bring nuts and rednecks into the area to cause trouble for the center once it's installed. It is going to be a beacon for vandalism and harrassment that tends to spill into neighboring facilities.

I still want it to stay, just trying to have a little perspective as to why the % is so high.

[progressoid]

65. BFD. 72% thought invading Iraq was a good idea too.

[western mass]

66. 60 years ago, if you asked about a black family moving next door

you would have gotten the same answer. Bigotry is back in fashion. Not surprising when Democrats and civil rights groups don't seem willing to call it what it is: bigotry.

[Taverner]

67. Americans Want to Keep Slavery, Poll Finds

Just sayin'

[Lightning Count]

68. No one would care about the mosque if there was a beautiful state of the art skyscraper

2 blocks away. But there is a whole in the ground. Why is this?!?!

[pettypace]

69. It makes sense that New Yorkers feel this way

I'm still confused how people in the heartland, bible belt, or anywhere outside New York have anger towards Muslims.

Only elaborate Muslim attacks in the US have occured in NYC and DC...anyone know of others?

[Uncle Joe]

71. I agree with you to an extent but I have no doubt the corporate media magnified

their fear and hatred, not the entire corporate media; there were exceptions but the vast majority of it.

What if messages of Constitutional integrity, American Ideals, courage and empathy had been promoted by the likes of FOX "News" instead of fear, hatred and suspicion?

Would the poll results be different?

I believe they would.